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Nintendo shares plummet after Wii U reveal

Nintendo shares plummet after Wii U reveal

The Wii U announcement has disappointed analysts and caused a share price drop for Nintendo.

Nintendo's E3 2011 announcements have failed to wow investors and analysts, causing a drop in share prices that have pushed Nintendo to a five year low.

Analysts said the drop had been called by an underwhelming reveal of the new Wii U console, which had previously been known as Project Cafe, plus stiff competition from Sony's Move and Microsoft's Kinect systems.

'There were high expectations from the new version of the Wii and this fell far short,' Yusuke Tsunoda, an analyst at Tokai Tokyo Securities Co. told Bloomberg.

'People had expected to see something more at a big event like the E3, but there wasn’t really anything more than what’s already reported.'

Nintendo's share price fell by 5.7 per cent to 16,930 Yen at Japan's close of trading, with more than 2.2 million shares changing hands over the course of the day.

Let us know your thoughts in the forums.

You can check out other news from the show via our E3 2011 News hub.

50 Comments

Discuss in the forums Reply
coolius 8th June 2011, 12:00 Quote
lol what exactly were they expecting??
Stotherd-001 8th June 2011, 12:05 Quote
After years of development they expected actual firm hardware and release date, not just what could very easily look like a concept.
Fordy 8th June 2011, 12:07 Quote
It's Nintendo's push to take "both core gamers and casual gamers" with the Wii U that's done it.

Those are two very different markets; Nintendo does casual very well indeed - but the Wii U doesn't have a hope in hell of competing with the 360 and PS3 for 'core gamers'.

By going after both, they risk losing what they have. It certainly doesn't help that the footage they were showing to display how capable the Wii U was, was actually from the 360 and PS3.


I'd certainly be selling my shares if I had them.
Paul2011 8th June 2011, 12:16 Quote
time to buy some shares! seriously, sony and microsoft aren't going to release a new console for a few years yet and you know every kid will hound their parents to buy one, hell i might pick one up. I just can't see this failing.
Fordy 8th June 2011, 12:19 Quote
It was a very unimpressive keynote really - they spent more time banging on about how cool Zelda is than they did useful information on Wii U.
Fordy 8th June 2011, 12:20 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by Paul2011
time to buy some shares! seriously, sony and microsoft aren't going to release a new console for a few years yet and you know every kid will hound their parents to buy one, hell i might pick one up. I just can't see this failing.

Sony and MS can sell products without releasing new ones, you know...
Timmy_the_tortoise 8th June 2011, 12:24 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fordy
By going after both, they risk losing what they have. It certainly doesn't help that the footage they were showing to display how capable the Wii U was, was actually from the 360 and PS3.

That's not true. That footage wasn't to show how capable the Wii U was, they'd already done that with the demo of the bird in the garden, which was very impressive. Better than 360 and PS3. We'd also seen the snippets of Zelda which looked very impressive too.

The footage you're talking about was to show which games were going to be available, not to show off the Wii U's graphical capability. This is Nintendo, they don't show off graphics like that. The brief demo with the bird was all we got because that is all Nintendo believes we need.

As a Core gamer, I have to competely disagree with you. If they get the right Third Party support - which it looks like they might have this time - and get their internet and media features right, they will easily compete with 360 and PS3 in the Core market. I can very easily see this appealing to the casual market too, since it will be so familiar to them given that it still supports all Wii peripherals and software. All they need to recapture the casual market is a good pricepoint, and after seeing that the PSVita is only going to be $299, I can easily believe that Nintendo will be able to pull the Wii U off at a great price.
Yemerich 8th June 2011, 12:24 Quote
I don't get it... I think the presentation and the size for a portable console really good. And if it works the way the presentation show, i would surelly buy it. And I am a PC guy.

I still think that all consoles are for casual gamers.

Anyway I wish luck for nintendo. Always liked them, and I hope a daring idea like that should do well.
Timmy_the_tortoise 8th June 2011, 12:27 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by Yemerich
I still think that all consoles are for casual gamers.

Not true. Consoles are for people with lives and reasonable budgets.

And I say this as a PC and Console gamer.
Mentai 8th June 2011, 12:31 Quote
It's the classic Nintendo lull. They will have a great E3 next year where they show how much better their exclusives look compared to other consoles, exclusives which will probably launch a year after their announcement (see 1st party 3DS titles). There will be nothing worth buying from them for the next couple of years as they shift between consoles except for the late Zelda title, again.

Unless the 3DS magically takes off, but with that software line up... just no.
Centy-face 8th June 2011, 12:34 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by Timmy_the_tortoise
Quote:
Originally Posted by Yemerich
I still think that all consoles are for casual gamers.

Not true. Consoles are for people with lives and reasonable budgets.

And I say this as a PC and Console gamer.

So to be a PC gamer you need to be rich and without a life? Interesting statement given the website you chose to post it on.
Fordy 8th June 2011, 12:35 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by Timmy_the_tortoise
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fordy
By going after both, they risk losing what they have. It certainly doesn't help that the footage they were showing to display how capable the Wii U was, was actually from the 360 and PS3.

That's not true. That footage wasn't to show how capable the Wii U was, they'd already done that with the demo of the bird in the garden, which was very impressive. Better than 360 and PS3. We'd also seen the snippets of Zelda which looked very impressive too.

The footage you're talking about was to show which games were going to be available, not to show off the Wii U's graphical capability. This is Nintendo, they don't show off graphics like that. The brief demo with the bird was all we got because that is all Nintendo believes we need.

But it was certainly misleading, and they certainly should have stated the source of the footage at the time, otherwise of course we would presume it was Wii U footage.

It's not just me:

www.thisismynext.com
www.enigma-tech.co.uk
www.engadget.com

All thought it was Wii U footage at the time.
Aracos 8th June 2011, 12:37 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mentai
It's the classic Nintendo lull. They will have a great E3 next year where they show how much better their exclusives look compared to other consoles, exclusives which will probably launch a year after their announcement (see 1st party 3DS titles). There will be nothing worth buying from them for the next couple of years as they shift between consoles except for the late Zelda title, again.

Unless the 3DS magically takes off, but with that software line up... just no.

I was interested in the 3DS as my next portable but I just took a look at the list of available games and guess what, all the good ones are remakes. Guess I'll hold off a year of Kid icarus :-(
Madness_3d 8th June 2011, 12:38 Quote
actually lol'd
Timmy_the_tortoise 8th June 2011, 12:40 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by Centy-face
So to be a PC gamer you need to be rich and without a life? Interesting statement given the website you chose to post it on.

Just because I say Console gamers are one thing doesn't mean the opposite is true for PC gamers. Console gaming is just a lot cheaper and easier. I completely understand the appeal of the more technical nature of PC Gaming, that's the reason I still do it. It's just nice to have a console though, where I know all the games are going to work for me, and I'm not limited by my hardware; rather, I am opened up to all sorts of experiences.
Timmy_the_tortoise 8th June 2011, 12:44 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fordy
But it was certainly misleading, and they certainly should have stated the source of the footage at the time, otherwise of course we would presume it was Wii U footage.

It's not just me:

www.thisismynext.com
www.enigma-tech.co.uk
www.engadget.com

All thought it was Wii U footage at the time.

I agree. They should have said explicitly that it wasn't Wii U footage. Though, honestly, you could almost tell it wasn't. None of it looked nearly as impressive as the actual Wii U footage.
Lance 8th June 2011, 12:50 Quote
Good time to buy shares then.
Sensei 8th June 2011, 12:56 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by Timmy_the_tortoise
Quote:
Originally Posted by Centy-face
So to be a PC gamer you need to be rich and without a life? Interesting statement given the website you chose to post it on.

Just because I say Console gamers are one thing doesn't mean the opposite is true for PC gamers. Console gaming is just a lot cheaper and easier. I completely understand the appeal of the more technical nature of PC Gaming, that's the reason I still do it. It's just nice to have a console though, where I know all the games are going to work for me, and I'm not limited by my hardware; rather, I am opened up to all sorts of experiences.

I agree with Timmy on this. I have been a hardcore pc gamer for years but with my familly ever expanding, I do not have the budget to upgrade CPUs and GPUs regularly. I have a PS3 for myself and a Wii in the living room. I know Crysis 2 will probably not work too well with my current rig and Im pretty sure that Deus Ex wont work when that arrives. They will work out of the box on my PS3 though. Im not a casual gamer, I do play most evenings and for me, the console is a gaming necessacity due to my financial responsibilities being needed elsewhere. This seems to be the year where gaming technology has finally left my pc behind. So whilst Im happy playing Shogun 2 on it, untill I get the budget for a complete new rig, latest games will have to be bought on console.
Mentai 8th June 2011, 12:58 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by Timmy_the_tortoise
Quote:
Originally Posted by Centy-face
So to be a PC gamer you need to be rich and without a life? Interesting statement given the website you chose to post it on.

Just because I say Console gamers are one thing doesn't mean the opposite is true for PC gamers. Console gaming is just a lot cheaper and easier. I completely understand the appeal of the more technical nature of PC Gaming, that's the reason I still do it. It's just nice to have a console though, where I know all the games are going to work for me, and I'm not limited by my hardware; rather, I am opened up to all sorts of experiences.

This gets hammered to death around here, and in a way it depends on your location, but for me in NZ PC gaming is actually much cheaper than console. I can pick up all my games at amazing prices on Steam ($60NZ brand new instead of $130NZ on console), and with games being developed for consoles first + a long console cycle I don't need to upgrade my computer at all. I run all the latest stuff maxed out at 1080p fine on a 3 year old system (2 year old gpu) and have over 100 steam games. To have that many games on a console with the price difference in my country would by far be more expensive than PC gaming.
Sensei 8th June 2011, 13:02 Quote
[QUOTE
This gets hammered to death around here, and in a way it depends on your location, but for me in NZ PC gaming is actually much cheaper than console. I can pick up all my games at amazing prices on Steam ($60NZ brand new instead of $130NZ on console), and with games being developed for consoles first + a long console cycle I don't need to upgrade my computer at all. I run all the latest stuff maxed out at 1080p fine on a 3 year old system (2 year old gpu) and have over 100 steam games. To have that many games on a console with the price difference in my country would by far be more expensive than PC gaming.[/QUOTE]

Games are cheaper in general on the PC here in the UK too, its just the hardware. The cost of a console is the same as a decent graphics card. Simply put, if you want the best, then you need to pay to get the best.
steveo_mcg 8th June 2011, 13:12 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sensei


Games are cheaper in general on the PC here in the UK too, its just the hardware. The cost of a console is the same as a decent graphics card. Simply put, if you want the best, then you need to pay to get the best.

But lets face why bother buying the best any more? This late in the console life cycle and you can match or better it with 3 year old gear second hand off ebay for £100 (ish)
Mentai 8th June 2011, 13:30 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by steveo_mcg
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sensei


Games are cheaper in general on the PC here in the UK too, its just the hardware. The cost of a console is the same as a decent graphics card. Simply put, if you want the best, then you need to pay to get the best.

But lets face why bother buying the best any more? This late in the console life cycle and you can match or better it with 3 year old gear second hand off ebay for £100 (ish)

This.

Also the 'it just works' experience is overrated. I know people who have had multiple 360's red ring, others have had their PS3's die. There are frequent software and firmware updates. You pay for xbox live or PSN goes down. Sure the PC can have issues to work through if you install the wrong drivers or something, but I have never had a PC DIE on me, nor do I lose access to/pay for my online systems.

I will admit that if you want to play the latest during a wave of new consoles being a PC gamer is a bit of a bitch, but that only comes around once every several years so you just need to time it right.
Woodspoon 8th June 2011, 13:54 Quote
The damn thing looks like a "my first gameboy", nasty
Sensei 8th June 2011, 14:12 Quote
Looking at the new Battlefield 3 footage however, I feel the time may have come for me to stop talking and just upgrade
mecblade 8th June 2011, 15:15 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by Paul2011
you know every kid will hound their parents to buy one

I think not. It looks like an iPod screen glued onto a plasticky thing. I'll certainly not be hounding my parents to buy one.
Anakha 8th June 2011, 15:36 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by Timmy_the_tortoise
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fordy
But it was certainly misleading, and they certainly should have stated the source of the footage at the time, otherwise of course we would presume it was Wii U footage.

It's not just me:

www.thisismynext.com
www.enigma-tech.co.uk
www.engadget.com

All thought it was Wii U footage at the time.

I agree. They should have said explicitly that it wasn't Wii U footage. Though, honestly, you could almost tell it wasn't. None of it looked nearly as impressive as the actual Wii U footage.

They DID say it wasn't Wii U footage. "This is what we're expecting" was the kind of phrase that was used to introduce the montage.
Kiytan 8th June 2011, 17:29 Quote
Not wow'd about the console, however:

The idea of playing aliens: Colonial marines and having the screen on the controller being the motion tracker would be totally ****ing awesome
pendragon 8th June 2011, 18:00 Quote
wow wth ... people are weird.. i thought the Wii U looks pretty awesome actually .. can't fathom why it would depress their stock price [shrugs]
Timmy_the_tortoise 8th June 2011, 18:27 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by pendragon
wow wth ... people are weird.. i thought the Wii U looks pretty awesome actually .. can't fathom why it would depress their stock price [shrugs]

Agreed. I think it looks great.
greypilgers 8th June 2011, 18:42 Quote
Is there any information on things like battery life? It's not that handheld if its gotta be plugged in most of the time, seeing as it is a whole console in your hand and capable of outputting HD to a TV? And if battery life is good, how can they fit in the required hardware to be that impressive, plus the battery, plus the screen workings, etc etc in something that small and still allow room for the thing to be cooled? I assume it'll be passively cooled, which sounds a bit iffy if its performance really is good.

It may very well be a success and a good thing, but I would like some of the hardware and technical issues announced before getting too excited. It could just turn out to be a 3DS that has an output to a tv, for instance...
greypilgers 8th June 2011, 18:46 Quote
Sorry - I just read that there is a separate under-tv base console that has the hardware. That answers my questions then. Although that just makes this just another console but one with a very large controller?
Dedlite 8th June 2011, 19:00 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by greypilgers
Is there any information on things like battery life? It's not that handheld if its gotta be plugged in most of the time, seeing as it is a whole console in your hand and capable of outputting HD to a TV?

Dude, that's a controller. There is another box that drives it..
Dedlite 8th June 2011, 19:01 Quote
Forget my last post.
Timmy_the_tortoise 8th June 2011, 19:09 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by greypilgers
Sorry - I just read that there is a separate under-tv base console that has the hardware. That answers my questions then. Although that just makes this just another console but one with a very large controller?

That controller is strictly speaking an extension of the console. You basically have one per console, and for multiplayer games you use the standard Wii peripherals.. Wiimote and nunchuck, Classic Controller, Balance Board etc. At least that is how I understand it.
Lazy_Amp 8th June 2011, 19:15 Quote
From reading a bit, I think the stockholders and analysts were thinking that Nintendo would announce a plethora of Facebook connections along with their new system, to run Farmville and update your status from your WiiU tablet, to capture the growing social gamer market. Anyone who is familiar with Nintendo shouldn't be expecting such a reach outside their own networks however.
OCJunkie 8th June 2011, 19:18 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by Timmy_the_tortoise
Quote:
Originally Posted by Yemerich
I still think that all consoles are for casual gamers.

Not true. Consoles are for people with lives and reasonable budgets.

And I say this as a PC and Console gamer.
^
Inherently true statement, but incredibly badly worded...

Anyways I'm not surprised, I don't now what Nintendo expected... this doesn't seem like a huge step up from the Wii, and still can't compete with Sony & M$ since they both jumped ship with the whole movement gimmick. Also it doesn't even matter if the competiotrs won't release a new console for the next few years, they've obviously proved the longevity of their current gen offerings with the peripheral upgrades. Nintendo flop imho.
XXAOSICXX 8th June 2011, 20:15 Quote
Wii = casual gamers

Consoles = "core"/mainstream gamers who don't mind using awful controllers, watching inferior graphics, and enjoy paying twice as much for their games

PC = actual gamers
Gh0stDrag0n 8th June 2011, 20:22 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by XXAOSICXX
Wii = casual gamers

Consoles = "core"/mainstream gamers who don't mind using awful controllers, watching inferior graphics, and enjoy paying twice as much for their games

PC = actual gamers

Or... Hardcore Gamer = Owns and plays all platforms. ;)
toolio20 8th June 2011, 21:00 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by XXAOSICXX
Wii = casual gamers

Consoles = "core"/mainstream gamers who don't mind using awful controllers, watching inferior graphics, and enjoy paying twice as much for their games

PC = actual gamers

Sigh, so totally wrong. I would hazard to guess a significant portion of the "actual gamers" demographic cut their teeth on the NES which, if you're either too old or too young to remember, was something of a worldwide phenomenon (X-mas 1985 was the BEST. EVER). A testament to its legacy is the proliferation of the ubiquitous D-pad, a gaming staple which brought countless hours of "actual" gaming across the globe for many years.

No one will debate KB/mouse for FPS or RTS or the like, but categorizing console controllers - particularly the Playstation DS3 - as "awful" (which you did with your carte blanche condemnation) leaves me to assume you're a casual gamer, as an "actual gamer" would concede the gamepad its uses. Unless you're dirt poor, a masochist, or technologically unable to pair a controller with your PC, I just can't see anyone choosing to play fare like Assassin's Creed, Dead Space, Arkham Asylum et al. with a keyboard and mouse over a gamepad.

You should also notice the "actual gamers" in here play on multiple platforms.
Doglobster 8th June 2011, 21:21 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kiytan
Not wow'd about the console, however:

The idea of playing aliens: Colonial marines and having the screen on the controller being the motion tracker would be totally ****ing awesome
I was thinking the same thing. With the right game this controller
could be great. Having the HUD on the controller could be quite
immersive.
Gunsmith 8th June 2011, 21:28 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by toolio20

You should also notice the "actual gamers" in here play on multiple platforms.

this however the PC is thier main choice of platform.
Timmy_the_tortoise 8th June 2011, 22:03 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by OCJunkie
Quote:
Originally Posted by Timmy_the_tortoise
Quote:
Originally Posted by Yemerich
I still think that all consoles are for casual gamers.

Not true. Consoles are for people with lives and reasonable budgets.

And I say this as a PC and Console gamer.
^
Inherently true statement, but incredibly badly worded...

Yeah. I was being a bit of a dick when I said that.
XXAOSICXX 8th June 2011, 22:07 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by toolio20
Quote:
Originally Posted by XXAOSICXX
Wii = casual gamers

Consoles = "core"/mainstream gamers who don't mind using awful controllers, watching inferior graphics, and enjoy paying twice as much for their games

PC = actual gamers

Sigh, so totally wrong. I would hazard to guess a significant portion of the "actual gamers" demographic cut their teeth on the NES which, if you're either too old or too young to remember, was something of a worldwide phenomenon (X-mas 1985 was the BEST. EVER). A testament to its legacy is the proliferation of the ubiquitous D-pad, a gaming staple which brought countless hours of "actual" gaming across the globe for many years.

No one will debate KB/mouse for FPS or RTS or the like, but categorizing console controllers - particularly the Playstation DS3 - as "awful" (which you did with your carte blanche condemnation) leaves me to assume you're a casual gamer, as an "actual gamer" would concede the gamepad its uses. Unless you're dirt poor, a masochist, or technologically unable to pair a controller with your PC, I just can't see anyone choosing to play fare like Assassin's Creed, Dead Space, Arkham Asylum et al. with a keyboard and mouse over a gamepad.

You should also notice the "actual gamers" in here play on multiple platforms.

Yup. I used to own a NES, when I was a kid....and a SNES....and a Spectrum, C64, Atari 1040ST, Amiga 1200...and then, I grew up, and played games on a PC - my platform of choice. As it happens, I still have a SNES, as well as a PS3 and XBox360 on my desk at work - which I use for....that's right...casual gaming, 5 minutes on Streetfighter 2/4 here and there with a colleague between meetings. When I come home from work I hope onto my PC and play something like Left4Dead, Civilization, Company of Heroes, Dragon Age, Battlefield 2, Warhammer 40K etc. All of which are better on the PC than on a console (or are simply unavailable on consoles).

As it happens, I chose to play Arkham Asylum with a keyboard and mouse and was perfectly happy/comfortable. I chose not to play Assassin's Creed and Dead Space because, unlike BAA, they were awful console ports and hadn't been designed with the PC user in mind. This isn't a fault with the platform, it's the money-hungry publishers being tight.

Perhaps I was a little short in my post - it wasn't supposed to be analysed, I was just having fun. Of course there are exceptions, if you happen to like intensely story driven single player games, such as Heavy Rain (ooh, look how much fun shaving with a PS Move controller isn't), then controllers are fine....me...I'd rather have a keyboard and mouse every time.
Sloth 9th June 2011, 00:00 Quote
Using a Nintendo stock holder's point of view this is a risk. It's a major investment on Nintendo's part and hasn't been particularly well recieved, the unfaithful are jumping ship and taking their money to safer pastures. Can't say I blame them, there doesn't seem to be enough chance to profit compared to the chance of a flop.
Quote:
Originally Posted by toolio20

You should also notice the "actual gamers" in here play on multiple platforms.
That's a very important point. There are likely few member of the forum who have only ever owned a PC. I consider myself a "hardcore" PC gamer, easily putting 3+ hours in per night on PC, and still own an N64, PS2, PS3, and Wii. They have games which aren't on PC and controllers are better at somethings like racing games or 2D fighters.
mute1 9th June 2011, 01:03 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by toolio20

No one will debate KB/mouse for FPS or RTS or the like, but categorizing console controllers - particularly the Playstation DS3 - as "awful" (which you did with your carte blanche condemnation) leaves me to assume you're a casual gamer, as an "actual gamer" would concede the gamepad its uses. Unless you're dirt poor, a masochist, or technologically unable to pair a controller with your PC, I just can't see anyone choosing to play fare like Assassin's Creed, Dead Space, Arkham Asylum et al. with a keyboard and mouse over a gamepad.

You should also notice the "actual gamers" in here play on multiple platforms.

What?! I personally would never use a gamepad unless the game was so poorly designed for KB+mouse you just had to (like Shank). The one exception for me is car racing. Otherwise it's mouse+KB all the way. And I've gamed on just about every platform except the xbox (although PC is by far the best).
greypilgers 9th June 2011, 01:49 Quote
Ha ha ha... Still makes me smile to see how snobbish most people are when it comes to considering their preferred platform, or how self-righteous some others sound when they classify themselves as 'hardcore' or 'true' gamers for owning every platform...

:)
Da_Rude_Baboon 9th June 2011, 09:01 Quote
meh. The Wii was a turd of a console. Once the novelty wore off and you realized the only company that made decent games for it was Nintendo who rarely released anything for it it sat on the shelf gathering dust. We bought ours on release day and ended up giving it away in the end. Compared to the hours played on my PS3, xbox360 and PC it was a waste of money. So I don't care how innovative the controller is if all Nintendo can release is rehashes of old IP's. Third party support looks good but I get those on the systems I already own.
Ergath 9th June 2011, 17:50 Quote
+1 for platform agnosticism.Horses for courses IMO. Personally I like complexity in my games, so I love my pc. I've spent many a happy hour playing on friends' consoles though.
toolio20 10th June 2011, 08:01 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by XXAOSICXX
TL/DR
Reading for comprehension is underrated. I didn't mention the myriad of consoles I've owned, sloppy ports,* motion-controlled interfaces or corporate greed. I did assert gamepads are part and parcel of gaming culture, history, and many an "actual" gamer's arsenal regardless of platform; as such, they are hardly "awful."

You play everything with a KB/Mouse? Fine. Your tastes are not universal, however, and you should know better than to $#!T on a venerable workhorse like the gamepad, even if you play all your SNES games with the awesome Mario Paint mouse peripheral (in which case I stand firmly behind my belief you are, indeed, a masochist).




*heh, I'm totally using that out at the bar this weekend...
XXAOSICXX 11th June 2011, 20:09 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by toolio20
*heh, I'm totally using that out at the bar this weekend...

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