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Crytek defends Crysis 2 DRM

Crytek defends Crysis 2 DRM

Crytek has defended its use of DRM on Crysis 2, asking 'what are we supposed to do?'

Crytek has defended the use of anti-piracy DRM on upcoming shooter Crysis 2, saying both that as a company it has to protects the products it makes and also that most users fail to notice.

' know there's a lot of negative feelings toward DRM,' Crytek's Natham Camarillo told GameShark. 'But, I mean, what are we supposed to do? The actions of a few are causing maybe a mild inconvenience for others.'

'If I'm playing a game and it has DRM on it, do I notice? Not really. I just know that there's something going on, but doesn't really enhance my play experience. So, it's something that we'll have to look at in the future.'

It's worth pointing out too that Crysis 2 has already been leaked online, with a full-but-ornery version of the game slipping out of the studio more than a month ahead of release.

While Crytek has put on a brave face in the fallout of the Crysis 2 leak, it has admitted that piracy is still a big problem for PC developers. The PC Gaming Alliance, however, reckons that the practice is on the decline.

On Friday we showed our Bit-Gamer Facebook followers that we had copies of Crysis 2 on both Xbox 360 and PC, asking which we should review first. The DRM on the PC version has forced our hands, however - look out for the console review in the next few days.

Check out our Crysis 2 resource centre for more information on the game, then let us know your thoughts in the forums.

74 Comments

Discuss in the forums Reply
LeMaltor 21st March 2011, 11:15 Quote
If the PC version doesn't work give it 0/10.
Blademrk 21st March 2011, 11:15 Quote
So what exactly is the DRM on Crysis 2?

and isn't this a case of bolting the stable door after the horse has escaped?
liratheal 21st March 2011, 11:18 Quote
....lol.
memeroot 21st March 2011, 11:19 Quote
well many pc owners did seem to see fit to nick it... though it's not very high on torrent sites now...
Musicboffin 21st March 2011, 11:21 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by Blademrk
and isn't this a case of bolting the stable door after the horse has escaped?

"Close the stable door after the horse has bolted"
Xir 21st March 2011, 11:21 Quote
Depends on the level of the "mild inconvenience".
I don't mind a disk check.
I do mind an always-online check.
eddtox 21st March 2011, 11:24 Quote
If I wanted to pirate the game, DRM would not stop me. However, so long as it has DRM on it, the chances of me buying it are minuscule. I'd rather not play it at all. That's a lost sale right there.

I wonder if implementing DRM is effective enough in combating piracy to offset the price of implementation and the sales lost through bad feeling in the customer base.
Bindibadgi 21st March 2011, 11:30 Quote
Disc checks are easily circumvented though. Steam is pretty much the only DRM that really works well. To pull a game off that requires quite some inconvenience to the pirate, but works flawlessly for the legit user.
SaNdCrAwLeR 21st March 2011, 11:34 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by eddtox
If I wanted to pirate the game, DRM would not stop me. However, so long as it has DRM on it, the chances of me buying it are minuscule. I'd rather not play it at all. That's a lost sale right there.

I wonder if implementing DRM is effective enough in combating piracy to offset the price of implementation and the sales lost through bad feeling in the customer base.

considering that as soon as a game is out there's already a crack for it...
you could still buy the game and just apply the cracks that are made by the crack releasers...
or you could just pirate it...
Unknownsock 21st March 2011, 11:35 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bindibadgi
Disc checks are easily circumvented though. Steam is pretty much the only DRM that really works well. To pull a game off that requires quite some inconvenience to the pirate, but works flawlessly for the legit user.

Define working well.
It's not as intrusive no, but games get as easily pirated on Steam as on any other.
I'm pretty sure that's a reason why not many games get pre-loaded.
wuyanxu 21st March 2011, 11:35 Quote
people still complain about DRM?

this is just Crytek wanting more free press, no one is complaining about the DRM, in fact, no many even know what their DRM is going to be like. (activation limits, disk check, online check, etc?)
Evildead666 21st March 2011, 11:43 Quote
I still haven't bought GTA IV due to the stupid crap you have to go through to get that going.

You have started an article about Crysis 2 DRM, without saying what type of DRM is involved.
What type of DRM is involved ? Online activation ? Always online ?
niro 21st March 2011, 11:46 Quote
Does anyone even know what type of DRM they intend to use?
WarrenJ 21st March 2011, 11:47 Quote
Deal with it. They want to protect their software from pirates. Is it really that much of an inconvenience for them to take a couple of minutes to check if the software your using is legit?

For the amount of people saying "im not going to buy this game because of the DRM" there's 10 people who don't give a ****. Guess who's gonna win.
eddtox 21st March 2011, 11:51 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by SaNdCrAwLeR
Quote:
Originally Posted by eddtox
If I wanted to pirate the game, DRM would not stop me. However, so long as it has DRM on it, the chances of me buying it are minuscule. I'd rather not play it at all. That's a lost sale right there.

I wonder if implementing DRM is effective enough in combating piracy to offset the price of implementation and the sales lost through bad feeling in the customer base.

considering that as soon as a game is out there's already a crack for it...
you could still buy the game and just apply the cracks that are made by the crack releasers...
or you could just pirate it...
I could, but neither of those options will get my message through as well as not getting the game at all. DRM, in all but a few of its forms, is the scourge of PC gaming.
loftie 21st March 2011, 12:07 Quote
The problem with DRM is that the only person that normally suffers is the legitimate buyer. Pirates will have a cracked version that, more often than not, works better.

GTA 4 is an example I had myself, because I had IE9 installed, securom would go crazy and 95% of the time refuse to load the game. It was taking me 5-10 minutes to actually get the game to load. I had to remove IE9, and haven't installed it again for fear the problem will come back.
Oggyb 21st March 2011, 12:07 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by WarrenJ
...
For the amount of people saying "im not going to buy this game because of the DRM" there's 10 people who don't give a ****. Guess who's gonna win.

Actually, 9% of their target audience is a lot of people, though to be fair, the grumblers will not total 9% of their target audience.
Snips 21st March 2011, 12:07 Quote
Does buying it through Steam make a difference? I picked up a copy of Battefield 2 the other day through Steam and while playing online I was kicked by punkbuster for some reason about bad code. I haven't looked into it yet but it stopped me playing that game at the time.
loftie 21st March 2011, 12:12 Quote
Turn the steam overlay off for BF2, unless you mean BF BC2. I remember punkbuster was kicking me for that, it was one of their 'updates' too, as it didn't when i first bought the game
Woollster00 21st March 2011, 12:18 Quote
Not buying a game purely because it has DRM is the most retarded thing ever if you think like that you're a moron. It might not even be intrusive it might just be a one time activation none of you even know what it is yet your speculating how bad and how much of an inconvenience it's going to be also GTA IV got rid of all their DRM and Rockstar social club after a while so even if cryteks is intrusive they could remove it but yeah DRM is kind of a waste of time since all DRM is easily crackable.
leveller 21st March 2011, 12:22 Quote
DRM has never bothered me and this doesn't bother me in the slightest. I would prefer to buy games riddled with DRM than see devs miss out on being compensated for what they give us.
AcidJiles 21st March 2011, 12:25 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by WarrenJ
Deal with it. They want to protect their software from pirates. Is it really that much of an inconvenience for them to take a couple of minutes to check if the software your using is legit?

For the amount of people saying "im not going to buy this game because of the DRM" there's 10 people who don't give a ****. Guess who's gonna win.

This doesn't stop piracy though. Someone always cracks the games which means that all you do is inconvenience real users. A disc check is fine if they really have to confirm its a real disc and doesn't make it easy for the pirates (will still be cracked tho). Anything more is often unnecessary and worse as it actually impacts the real purchaser. Any anti piracy measures should no noticeable impact on the real buyer anything more than that is not only pointless but annoying.

Just so you know I never pirate games although if really unsure on a game I might test it before buying but I haven't done that yet.
Snips 21st March 2011, 12:43 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by loftie
Turn the steam overlay off for BF2, unless you mean BF BC2. I remember punkbuster was kicking me for that, it was one of their 'updates' too, as it didn't when i first bought the game

Cheers Dude, this was a slight niggle since everything else I've got from Steam has been hassle free.
NethLyn 21st March 2011, 12:45 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by Woollster00
Not buying a game purely because it has DRM is the most retarded thing ever if you think like that you're a moron.

Enough people made the threat that led Amazon to dump off Spore and Crysis Warhead to their Marketplace sellers for the launches - though sales of both were still healthy elsewhere and the latter game was sold as normal on re-release.

The GTA 4 thing mentioned by loftie is much more annoying; conflict with an update to a Microsoft app?? Ridiculous - Whenever I catch up with that, it looks like a 360 job.

But with 4 days to go I'm not cancelling the Crysis 2 pre-order and besides there will probably be a day-one patch whatever happens, in the event of DRM being a problem for some.
law99 21st March 2011, 12:53 Quote
It's a problem because of thirteen yearolds. Maybe we should outlaw teenagers and we can remove DRM.

Nah... it is a funny subject eh? You can get a crack of a game and play it pretty easy. I certainly haven't done anything so inconsiderate since I was too young to care. I can tell you though, for the guy downloading the pirate stuff, there has been no difference. Just go back to serials in the box and see if anything changes.

I'm against piracy. It's way to easy. Maybe devs could pay hackers to achieve what they want and make a game out of seeing who can make running a pirate copy the most difficult. Then everyone wins... hackers/crackers get to say I broke your DRM but spotty kids still can't play without wasting hours editing dlls, entering loop back addresses and breaking fair usage policy rules.

Nah.

But seriously, I worked with a load of broke teenagers for a bit and they have no problem using pirates on PC or 360, and they do it often, so it's a problem. The thing is, I know for a fact they wouldn't buy the game anyway, so I'm not sure if it's a lost sale. How do devs get around that?
loftie 21st March 2011, 12:57 Quote
Yea, you have no idea how long it took me to figure out it was IE9. Still don't know why it did it, just that it did.

Woollster00, do you know how to remove the DRM and Social Club from GTA 4? I'm pretty sure mine is still there as I have to login to Social Club before I can start the game, though it should be up-to-date as I have the steam version.

Np Snips - It's just silly PunkBuster was updated to count the Steam overlay as a violation. Also, don't use anything like Teamspeak Overlay, as that's an insta-kick too. ^^
soviet_ 21st March 2011, 13:03 Quote
Haven't read all the comments but I can imagine that the DRM is a release date check and that is why they are reviewing the console version first
dyzophoria 21st March 2011, 13:28 Quote
I Dont like any kind of DRM, but honestly I would still play it (pirate it or buy it, whatever), but honestly the "DRM?! Im not gonna play it then" line is really getting old. i'd give it a big fat facepalm, but if it is enjoyable I highly doubt id let DRM stop me from playing it
HyBry 21st March 2011, 13:35 Quote
I would really love to see the piracy demographic breakdown. Being 25 now I only pirate games I know would not buy otherwise. But I am not even doing that much as I have not enough time to play them all.

Few years back i considered buying a game waste of money. Then again I barely had any. Piracy was something that kept me interested in games.

All that said. I do not oppose DRM as a concept, however I oppose that by having it you have inferior product. As long as it does not subrtact from experience (forbids the game to be played, crashes, etc.) or even better enhances it (Steam) I don't care for it.
rollo 21st March 2011, 13:40 Quote
Steam is only anti piracy tool that works and that doesnt stop Games like GTA4 and the maze you have to go through to play it.

sign in to one thing
sign in to live
sign in to steam
finally play

oh but you have an expansion oh we need that key also

thats intrusive drm

i dont mind a cd check or even always online like starcraft 2 was. Just stay away from ubisoft style drm
dogknees 21st March 2011, 14:06 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by WarrenJ
Deal with it. They want to protect their software from pirates. Is it really that much of an inconvenience for them to take a couple of minutes to check if the software your using is legit?

For the amount of people saying "im not going to buy this game because of the DRM" there's 10 people who don't give a ****. Guess who's gonna win.

Not being able to play the game at home because it's not possible to get a connection at a reasonable price seems to be a pretty serous inconvenience to me.
impar 21st March 2011, 14:07 Quote
Greetings!
Quote:
Originally Posted by WarrenJ
Deal with it. They want to protect their software from pirates. Is it really that much of an inconvenience for them to take a couple of minutes to check if the software your using is legit?
DRM only affects legitimate players, pirates\freeloaders\parasites dont need to worry about DRM (their version is DRM-free).
GravitySmacked 21st March 2011, 14:31 Quote
Great, yet another game I won't be able to play if it lands early.
eddtox 21st March 2011, 14:42 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by Woollster00
Not buying a game purely because it has DRM is the most retarded thing ever if you think like that you're a moron. It might not even be intrusive it might just be a one time activation none of you even know what it is yet your speculating how bad and how much of an inconvenience it's going to be also GTA IV got rid of all their DRM and Rockstar social club after a while so even if cryteks is intrusive they could remove it but yeah DRM is kind of a waste of time since all DRM is easily crackable.

Insulting people voicing a legitimate opinion on a forum is the mark of a superior intellect, is it?

I refuse to support publishers/developers who make the experience less enjoyable. Simple. I don't mind the DRM on the XBOX - I don't notice it. Heck I didn't even mind CDKEYs, but installing rootkits and other software which adversely affects the running of my computer is not on. EDIT: Neither is having to sign up to multiple online accounts, or having to be constantly connected to the internet for a single player game etc.

XBOX games bought in the last month - 3
PC games bought in the last month - 0

As far as I'm concerned, it's not piracy that is killing PC gaming.

P.S: You are a ****TARD. Go troll somewhere else :)
Deadpool46 21st March 2011, 14:45 Quote
Reviewing the Xbox version of Crysis 2? That's disappointing. Wouldn't of been better to wait for the PC version to unlock, considering this is such a PC-centric site?
runadumb 21st March 2011, 14:47 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by Evildead666
I still haven't bought GTA IV due to the stupid crap you have to go through to get that going.

You have started an article about Crysis 2 DRM, without saying what type of DRM is involved.
What type of DRM is involved ? Online activation ? Always online ?

^^This!
chrismarkham1982 21st March 2011, 15:06 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by Deadpool46
Reviewing the Xbox version of Crysis 2? That's disappointing. Wouldn't of been better to wait for the PC version to unlock, considering this is such a PC-centric site?

id imagine it gives them a chance to review the sp mode and get the review as quick as possible and also give a slight insight into the ins and outs of the mp for those of us that didnt download the demo
murraynt 21st March 2011, 15:29 Quote
I don't really see the problem (Well GTA was a bit of a cock up)
Would any of you leave you car unlocked during the night? No
But if somebody want it bad enough they will steal it.

They are making games for money at the end of the day.
It's a business, people tend to forget that.
Deadpool46 21st March 2011, 15:52 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by chrismarkham1982
Quote:
Originally Posted by Deadpool46
Reviewing the Xbox version of Crysis 2? That's disappointing. Wouldn't of been better to wait for the PC version to unlock, considering this is such a PC-centric site?

id imagine it gives them a chance to review the sp mode and get the review as quick as possible and also give a slight insight into the ins and outs of the mp for those of us that didnt download the demo

You could be right but TBH I'm not interested in reading an Xbox review. I'l like to know if the PC version still feels and plays like a proper PC game. And other things like DRM, performance, settings and the online experience are not going to be relevant or will be absent from the console review.

It's a shame. I'll have to get my PC review from somewhere else.
Snips 21st March 2011, 16:19 Quote
Following on from some of the posts here. Although I agree totally with Leveller as DRM doesn't really bother me and as long as the actual developers are rewarded for their efforts then so be it.

However, Crysis was one of the most highly torrented games within the last few years. I don't blame Crytek for adding that little bit extra for them. It would be nice to know the full story here of what DRM it actual consists of.
Skiddywinks 21st March 2011, 17:01 Quote
DRM is pointless. If they want to combat piracy they have got to make people want to buy it, rather than add something they think stops piracy.

The level of retardation in the gaming industry is staggering. I wouldn't mind if it works. But it doesn't. If they stopped spending money on useless systems, and put that money in to something else (like, I dunno, making the PC version of the game not consolified ****), then people would have more incentive to buy it.

Nothing on the disc that isn't the game is going to stop piracy. Everyone who has half a brain cell knows that DRM does not work. They need to make people not want to pirate, rather than trying to make it un-piratable (which is never going to happen, face it).

As it stands, I will not be paying for this game, and the way it looks I don't even want to pirate it.
Aracos 21st March 2011, 17:42 Quote
Ok, WTF is the DRM being used? Not one person has answered the question, and since when does bit-tech do articles about DRM without mentioning what it is?
Whirly 21st March 2011, 18:32 Quote
I have no idea what the DRM is either but I will say this.

Just a small amount of research will show that most games are "cracked" for pirates within hours of release and many are even available before the official release date. DRM free. In fact, as far as I can tell, various pirate groups seem to compete to see who can "release" a game first.

DRM makes no difference to a pirate nowadays. Oh, sure, it would have been useful back in the days when kids swapped games in the playground, but nowadays I doubt anyone bothers going through the hassle of trying to copy an original game onto another DVD when it takes far less time and effort to simply download a cracked version.

So what illegal copying does DRM prevent? I *suppose* it could stop anyone who didn't have an internet connection from making a copy. Um, except you usually need an active internet connection for the DRM nowadays. And any person who wants to play a game but doesn't have a connection is then forced to get a friend to download the DRM-free pirated version and burn it to DVD so they can actually play the game.

And those of us who pay for the games? We get treated like criminals. Meanwhile, the criminals are playing DRM-free versions and are getting treated like a paying customer!

In reality, the ONLY use for DRM that I can see is to convince the paying customer that pirates are bad. After all, if it wasn't for pirates we wouldn't be saddled with DRM.

The truth is that if someone is determined to pirate a game/song/movie/etc. then they will. There is pretty much nothing the publishers can do to stop them.

But I believe there is a significant percentage out there who would stop pirating if the publishers offered real value. Look at steam. All your library in one place, easily accessible, no disk changes required to play, a simple ownership check you don't even notice, all your games stored in the "cloud" ready to download and play whenever you want, regular sales that offer top quality games at low prices, etc, etc, etc.

That's value because it makes the whole experience easier and more enjoyable. And it allows the customer to decide on the value of the game. Some will buy at full price because they can't wait to play, and others will wait for a steam sale to pick up the games they want.

Arghh, this is a long answer and somewhat off-topic. But my point is, that IMO, intrusive DRM is indefensible. The best way to fight piracy is to offer people real value.
Aracos 21st March 2011, 18:41 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by Whirly
In reality, the ONLY use for DRM that I can see is to convince the paying customer that pirates are bad. After all, if it wasn't for pirates we wouldn't be saddled with DRM.
Not at all, it's there to stop second hand sales also. With more and more online activations and account tie ins they are choking the second hand sales market, they can get away with it on the PC because people are used to it, but the reason we don't get DRM on consoles is simply because if they stopped second hand sales they would be a huge uproar from console gamers. If that happened then maybe PC and console gamers could actually join together and do something about it but until that happens DRM will exist for a long time becoming more and more intrusive.
TheUn4seen 21st March 2011, 19:29 Quote
Do you people really believe that DRM is there to stop pirating games? Really? Devs aren't that stupid. It's there to achieve what they wanted for a long time, stop the second hand market. From their perspective the second hand market is worse than piracy, and since everyone knows that they can't stop piracy they want to at least get rid of the second "threat" to their income. It's like e-book distributors limiting lending of e-books, to the point that libraries don't want to offer them so you have to buy your own.
Pete J 21st March 2011, 19:58 Quote
I really, really hope a constant internet connection isn't required. My connection is flaky (BT, you are useless!) and I'll go insane if I get kicked out of the SINGLE player because the game can't maintain a constant connection to home.
Cthippo 21st March 2011, 20:39 Quote
Can we please stop quoting the PCGA? They're worse than your usual industry shills since they claim to actually represent the customer. They are unworthy of being quoted on Bit.
Denki 21st March 2011, 20:57 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by murraynt
Would any of you leave you car unlocked during the night? No
But if somebody want it bad enough they will steal it.

It doesn't cost you millions of dollars to lock your car door. It costs a lot of money to implement the most commonly used DRM schemes. Creating a lost sale via an action that cost you money is bad business.

The point is that DRM doesn't stop any pirate, ever. It can only ever inconvenience a legitimate buyer. Devs and publishers need to get over the idea that a pirate = a lost sale. They do not compute.

Correlation != causation
AstralWanderer 21st March 2011, 21:51 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by storm20200
Ok, WTF is the DRM being used? Not one person has answered the question, and since when does bit-tech do articles about DRM without mentioning what it is?
It is a bit of a tease, but if EA are publishing it then it's likely to be similar to the DRM in Dragon Age 2 which comes in two parts - an online "its-not-SecuROM-but-something-written-by-the-same-people" date check and an online EA account check (which allows EA to effectively disable your game if you get suspended/banned from their forums, discussed here).

Crytek's handwringing on this seems utterly pathetic. The original Crysis did ultimately sell well (3 million copies by May 2010 according to Wikipedia and another 1.5 million for the DRMed expansion Crysis Warhead) but was clearly hampered by marketing that essentially came down to "Don't bother getting this until you've upgraded or bought a new PC!".

I bought Crysis myself but boycotted Warhead (and expect to boycott Crysis 2) due to their DRM. I expect (and indeed demand) the ability to play games 5-10 years from now and online activation makes that unlikely - how many publishers are going to be prepared to spend money on maintaining servers, bandwidth and paying for technical support after such a period?

I guess Woollster00 and WarrenJ have yet to build up a games collection of any note (or maybe they just "buy from the 'Bay") but there are a number of cases in the online music industry of customers losing access to products with similar DRM (such as Virgin Digital, Yahoo Music and, closing shortly, Nokia's Comes With Music service). The smart choice would be to learn from others' mistakes.
hrp8600 21st March 2011, 23:19 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bindibadgi
Disc checks are easily circumvented though. Steam is pretty much the only DRM that really works well. To pull a game off that requires quite some inconvenience to the pirate, but works flawlessly for the legit user.

Steam might work great for the dev, but can be a big pain in the you know where as a DRM platform for the end user, was a pig for black ops and Home front is just a fail, down load 1/2 the game from steam even with a disk and a big problem trying to play online if you have a BT Home Hub.
I wont be buying a steamworks game again any time soon.
Gradius 22nd March 2011, 01:28 Quote
DRM = bad bad bad and REALLLLY BAD!

Lower the price and you don't need to worry about pir8.
2bdetermine 22nd March 2011, 04:01 Quote
This game already failed for PC before is ever release. DX9 support only, DX11 through patches. All thanks to consoles. Another rubbished port from consoles.
Krazeh 22nd March 2011, 04:30 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by murraynt

Would any of you leave you car unlocked during the night? No
But if somebody want it bad enough they will steal it.

Would you still lock your car if installing the lock was very expensive, all car thieves had a key that could unlock your car regardless and your car would decide at random to not unlock or start the engine even tho you had the correct key?
urobulos 22nd March 2011, 09:40 Quote
Read this, go through all the 10 pages and then we can talk. http://www.tweakguides.com/Piracy_1.html

Most of the comments in this thread are cringe inducing. No company out there has no DRM at all. Even companies that claim not to have DRM, still use it. Stardock releases a stream of constant updates to its games.

For most titles you can get a crack for the gold version of the game. But will the crack work with the patches? How many games which are smaller than the AAA shooters never get cracks for updated versions of the game? Sometimes the DRM will get broken quickly, sometimes it will buy the developer a week or two before it gets broken. Vast majority of profits come from 1st month sales. This is when the marketing push is concentrated, when the reviews are published, when the game sales for the full retail price. If a publisher can get the game protected even for a few days it can make a huge difference in profits. Just creating the doubt, how long the game will take to get cracked while I want to play it right now can be enough to get people to buy a legitimate copy. It is not the role of DRM to be unbreakable. This is not possible and even DRM software companies don't claim their software will offer anything but temporary protection. But using a form of protection might be enough to deter some people.


To anyone saying DRM is evil spyware, you have no idea what you are talking about. Piracy became massive on the PC with the mass advent of torrents, long before games came with meaningful DRM. If you think PC gaming is dying because of DRM, think again.

I want to have an experience that is not intrusive, but saying that you will not buy a game because it has DRM (which 9 out of 10 times is barely noticeable in the first place). DRM can be badly implemented, but many of you are just hypocrites or pirates who just want to make stealing games as easy as possible.
Glix 22nd March 2011, 09:52 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by urobulos
Read this, go through all the 10 pages and then we can talk. http://www.tweakguides.com/Piracy_1.html

Most of the comments in this thread are cringe inducing. No company out there has no DRM at all. Even companies that claim not to have DRM, still use it. Stardock releases a stream of constant updates to its games.

For most titles you can get a crack for the gold version of the game. But will the crack work with the patches? How many games which are smaller than the AAA shooters never get cracks for updated versions of the game? Sometimes the DRM will get broken quickly, sometimes it will buy the developer a week or two before it gets broken. Vast majority of profits come from 1st month sales. This is when the marketing push is concentrated, when the reviews are published, when the game sales for the full retail price. If a publisher can get the game protected even for a few days it can make a huge difference in profits. Just creating the doubt, how long the game will take to get cracked while I want to play it right now can be enough to get people to buy a legitimate copy. It is not the role of DRM to be unbreakable. This is not possible and even DRM software companies don't claim their software will offer anything but temporary protection. But using a form of protection might be enough to deter some people.


To anyone saying DRM is evil spyware, you have no idea what you are talking about. Piracy became massive on the PC with the mass advent of torrents, long before games came with meaningful DRM. If you think PC gaming is dying because of DRM, think again.

I want to have an experience that is not intrusive, but saying that you will not buy a game because it has DRM (which 9 out of 10 times is barely noticeable in the first place). DRM can be badly implemented, but many of you are just hypocrites or pirates who just want to make stealing games as easy as possible.

So I bought Crysis Warhead when it came out. I didn't have an internet connection. Therefore I couldn't play the game.

Who stole from who in that situation?
leveller 22nd March 2011, 09:55 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by urobulos
I want to have an experience that is not intrusive, but saying that you will not buy a game because it has DRM (which 9 out of 10 times is barely noticeable in the first place). DRM can be badly implemented, but many of you are just hypocrites or pirates who just want to make stealing games as easy as possible.

This is true.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Glix
So I bought Crysis Warhead when it came out. I didn't have an internet connection. Therefore I couldn't play the game.

Who stole from who in that situation?

It says on the box that you need an internet connection for product activation. IF you bought it online then your beef is with the way it was advertised.
Glix 22nd March 2011, 10:13 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by leveller
It says on the box that you need an internet connection for product activation. IF you bought it online then your beef is with the way it was advertised.

I did buy it online. :D

Just a pain, that a single player required online activation, were my point was, that this is a form of intrusive DRM.

Couple of weeks later, EA did release a .exe that didn't need authenticating. Just a shame it was buried in their FAQ/Support pages. :|
sp4nky 22nd March 2011, 10:30 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by storm20200
Ok, WTF is the DRM being used? Not one person has answered the question, and since when does bit-tech do articles about DRM without mentioning what it is?

Agreed. I just read the article and the thread hoping to find out what DRM is being used here. I'm still none the wiser and I've lost 6 minutes of my life.
Glix 22nd March 2011, 10:42 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by sp4nky
Agreed. I just read the article and the thread hoping to find out what DRM is being used here. I'm still none the wiser and I've lost 6 minutes of my life.

Here here, lose another 6 minutes reading the comments. xD

Or condemn BT for a misleading title?
impar 22nd March 2011, 11:57 Quote
Greetings!
Quote:
Originally Posted by sp4nky
I just read the article and the thread hoping to find out what DRM is being used here. I'm still none the wiser and I've lost 6 minutes of my life.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Glix
Here here, lose another 6 minutes reading the comments. xD
Quote:
http://forums.steampowered.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1775338
Quote:
Originally Posted by Worira
From the EULA, included in the demo:
Quote:
3. Technical Protection Measures.
This Software uses Solidshield digital rights management technology. This Solidshield technology does not require a separate installation. For more information about Solidshield, visit www.solidshield.com <http://www.solidshield.com>. An Internet connection is required to authenticate the Software and verify your license (“Online Authentication”) using the serial code enclosed with the Software. CRYTEK reserves the right to validate your license through subsequent Online Authentications. If CRYTEK determines your license is not valid, you may not be able to use the Software. CRYTEK does not recommend that you attempt to disable Solidshield. If you disable or otherwise tamper with the technical protection measures, the Software may not function properly and you will have materially breached this License.
Each computer must be authorized before you can play the game. Authorization automatically occurs after authentication and license validation by CRYTEK (i.e., Online Authentication), described above. The first end user of this License may authorize up to five machines on which s/he may play the offline features of this game at any one time. Access to online features and/or services is addressed in Section 1.C, below. When you install the Software on a machine, the machine is automatically authorized (provided you have authorizations available). When you uninstall the Software from a machine, that machine is automatically de-authorized. You may manage your authorizations yourself by following the de-authorization instructions found at <http://activate.ea.com/deauthorize>. An Internet connection is required for de-authorization. Upon uninstallation of the Software and successful machine deauthorization, the Solidshield technology associated with this Software will be removed from your machine.
Bah!
Who uninstalls games before a reformat?
Xir 22nd March 2011, 12:57 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by impar
DRM only affects legitimate players, pirates\freeloaders\parasites dont need to worry about DRM (their version is DRM-free).
Best summup so far ;)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pete J
I really, really hope a constant internet connection isn't required. My connection is flaky (BT, you are useless!) and I'll go insane if I get kicked out of the SINGLE player because the game can't maintain a constant connection to home.
Happends to me on C&C4* on Steam. No offline play possible.
choose "Solo", still i end up in a chatroom with other players, and when my connection flakes, that's it, please restart.
Bwah!

*yes it sucks, but yes, I play anyway (at least it was cheap as chips)
bobwya 22nd March 2011, 13:29 Quote
+1 To Steam DRM only

Personally I am in favour of an online check like Steam does. Perhaps not every time the game is run - the same way that Steam allows you to play in offline mode.

Developers at the WINE (http://www.winehq.org/) project spend hours f**king about trying to circumvent stuff like PunkBuster, the Windows Live check (GTA IV) and Sony BS (SecuRom), etc. Most Valve games run fine under WINE (HL2.0 all episodes, etc.)... But all this extra DRM crap has a knock on effect on users of other operating systems... I think the point I am making is that most games will work fully under WINE at some point (work progresses to support higher graphics settings, etc.) - e.g. dynamic lighting is not supported for the S.T.A.L.K.E.R. series. But some DRM systems can probably never be worked around (e.g. PunkBuster that randomly checks Windows operating system file APIs)...
impar 22nd March 2011, 13:37 Quote
Greetings!
Quote:
Originally Posted by bobwya
+1 To Steam DRM only
Unlikely to ever happen on a Crysis game.
Even Crysis Steam version still has the five authorizations ever and no revoke tool.
casper410 22nd March 2011, 14:24 Quote
I`v waited years for this game to be released. Considering how much effort has gone into it, and it is probably the most technologicaly advanced game so far, i dont mind paying £25.

Its far more entertaining then alot of other games, and movies for that matter.

I would pay £40 for this game easily.
NethLyn 22nd March 2011, 14:53 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by AstralWanderer

I bought Crysis myself but boycotted Warhead (and expect to boycott Crysis 2) due to their DRM. I expect (and indeed demand) the ability to play games 5-10 years from now and online activation makes that unlikely - how many publishers are going to be prepared to spend money on maintaining servers, bandwidth and paying for technical support after such a period?

The irony is I bought an Ebay original of Crysis as my protest purely about the price - when it's Ebay you don't know if it's a shop or Joe Bloggs's copy but the point is EA got less to nothing. Warhead on the other hand crashed to a tenner from Zavvi so I snapped up two copies, one as a present...and guess which one works flawlessly in Win7 now, with no crapping out in the final level?

Amazon also wrung their hands and didn't sell Warhead or Spore due to DRM complaints when new, but were happy to take the cut from their marketplace sellers. It doesn't matter whether it's games, music, films or soon to be eBooks, some people just aren't going to want to pay for the software end of story and DRM will always be the excuse, whether or not it's Ubi-style rootkits where there is cause for complaint and legal action, or just a CD check.

At least the uninstall of Crysis 2 equals a straight deauthorization, so there's none of the extra tools crap that came with Bioshock, I can test it on my old AM2 machine, uninstall, upgrade to the new stuff I bought, and reinstall, and not lose one.
Pete J 22nd March 2011, 15:26 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by Xir
still i end up in a chatroom with other players
That annoys me as well. I just want to play single player and skirmishes - I don't want to read idiots' conversations!
Quote:
Originally Posted by Xir
at least it was cheap as chips
;)
AstralWanderer 23rd March 2011, 01:06 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by urobulos
...No company out there has no DRM at all. Even companies that claim not to have DRM, still use it. Stardock releases a stream of constant updates to its games.
Stardock is thankfully an exception (claiming DRM-freeness by having no DRM on retail products but then slipping it in on subsequent, often necessary, patches). There are plenty of companies offering genuinely DRM-free software with Good Old Games being the most widely known but other examples include GamersFront, SpiderWeb Software (CDs only - their downloads have a hardware-specific serial key so require a new one every time you install on a new PC) and most of the independents listed in ShowMeTheGames (though buying through third parties like Steam or GamersGate would mean dealing with their DRM).

Then you have the shareware utilities which only require a serial key (e.g. 3DMark, WinRAR, WinZip, WinACE, GetRight, Outpost firewall, Drive Snapshot) which I would consider virtually DRM-free (no need to worry about the company closing as long as you keep a copy of the program and your key details).
Quote:
Originally Posted by urobulos
...Vast majority of profits come from 1st month sales. This is when the marketing push is concentrated, when the reviews are published, when the game sales for the full retail price. If a publisher can get the game protected even for a few days it can make a huge difference in profits...But using a form of protection might be enough to deter some people.
The downside to this is that the early buyers get punished in 3 ways:
  • they pay the highest price;
  • they get a buggy product (nowadays it seems almost necessary to wait for the first patch);
  • they have to live with the DRM.
Now I'm not saying that this approach can't pay dividends in the short term - but gamers will wise up (I didn't buy Crysis until a year after release and virtually never bother with new releases until I know what the DRM/patch situation is) and start playing the system to their advantage. This may be why "certain" publishers think the PC market is dying...
Quote:
Originally Posted by urobulos
To anyone saying DRM is evil spyware, you have no idea what you are talking about.
Sorry - but it is you showing ignorance here. While some accusations made about DRM have not been substantiated, any online activation system involves the software publisher collecting information about your system (the hardware setup at the very least since that is used to provide the activation key). Every time you run the activated product, it compares your current system setup against the details registered on activation to ensure that it is not copied to another PC.

Systems requiring per play activation (Neverwinter Nights 1 Premium Module authentication check, Valve's Steam and Ubisoft's "always-online" DRM) allow publishers to collect further information about when (and to some degree where) you are using their software. That could be held for internal use only or sold onto third parties for more detailed processing and aggregation with other data.
Quote:
Originally Posted by urobulos
Piracy became massive on the PC with the mass advent of torrents, long before games came with meaningful DRM. If you think PC gaming is dying because of DRM, think again.
Piracy has always been massive on every leading computer system since the dawn of home computing, from ZX Spectrum gamers doing tape-to-tape copies, schoolchildren swapping floppy disks in the playground and warez BBS's to commercial traders unloading their crates at computer fairs or car boot sales. The main difference that online file-sharing (not just BitTorrent) has made is to allow publishers to see the extent of copying - some types of piracy have been reduced by this (notably the commercial traders, you don't see Dodgy Denis with his fake Windows "This'll pass Genuine Advantage, honest guv!" disks as often now) but since publishers had no way of measuring copying beforehand, many are acting as if the previous 20 years were a halcyon era of software publishing - whereas the industry back then was a fraction of the size it is now.
Quote:
Originally Posted by urobulos
...DRM can be badly implemented, but many of you are just hypocrites or pirates who just want to make stealing games as easy as possible.
And I guess that makes you a troll (or a severely maladjusted developer) who wants to make buying games as unpleasant as possible.

The only way publishers are going to be persuaded to drop DRM is by protest - and the most effective form of protest with companies is a product boycott. If publishers are as worried about sales as they claim to be, then even a modest number of dissenters will carry weight.
leveller 23rd March 2011, 07:07 Quote
Sorry Astral but you are delusional if you think the future can be DRM free games. The day DRM is stopped is the day AAA developers stop developing for PC.
eddtox 23rd March 2011, 10:30 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by leveller
Sorry Astral but you are delusional if you think the future can be DRM free games. The day DRM is stopped is the day AAA developers stop developing for PC.

I'm not sure we are asking for games to be DRM-free, as such. We are just asking for the DRM to be less of a pain. IF they can develop a DRM solution which is largely unnoticeable by the customer and allows us to use our games on multiple machines, resell them or keep them for years etc, they can have it.
Xir 23rd March 2011, 13:31 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pete J
;)
Thanks once more! :D
AstralWanderer 23rd March 2011, 15:53 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by leveller
Sorry Astral but you are delusional if you think the future can be DRM free games. The day DRM is stopped is the day AAA developers stop developing for PC.
Whether it is stopped or not depends on whether enough people demand it. There are several cases of publishers removing DRM after release (including die-hards like Atari) while CD-Projekt will be releasing their AAA title Witcher 2 DRM-free (only through GOG though - all other versions will include some form of DRM).
Quote:
Originally Posted by eddtox
I'm not sure we are asking for games to be DRM-free, as such. We are just asking for the DRM to be less of a pain. IF they can develop a DRM solution which is largely unnoticeable by the customer and allows us to use our games on multiple machines, resell them or keep them for years etc, they can have it.
That I would agree with - and there is one solution that's been in use for over 3 decades that fits the bill.

Serial keys that include purchaser details.

If you buy a copy of WinRAR for example you get a key by email which you type into the program's Register dialogue. It only needs to be done once per install, you need never deal with the company again (as along as you keep a copy of your key and the program) and it will work for as long as you run a compatible OS. And since the registration dialogue then displays your name, you get a sense of ownership (however ephemeral) and a warm fuzzy feeling inside (which may or may not qualify for medical therapy later on).

Now of course, there will be miscreants providing pirated keys - but the program author can include a blacklist of known warez keys in the program and update it with subsequent releases - this would be completely invisible to legitimate users (the database is within the program itself so requires no online connection or verification) and gives the author a reason to provide regular updates. Not 100% effective against pirates, but those using a warez key then have the inconvenience of not being able to access later versions as well as missing out on that warm fuzzy feeling when their copy shows itself as belong to "Warez D00d" or whatever.

Less cost for developers (compared to SecuROM and their "services"), more convenience for users - so why don't major publishers use it? Well they don't get the level of control over installations that online activation gives them (so no chance of disabling software when a user posts something your company doesn't like) and there is an extra step in the purchase process where a key has to be generated based on purchaser name (which may cost marginally more than a list of pre-generated keys). Aside from that though, I can't see any other reason other than sheer bloody-mindedness or inertia on their part. The personalised serial key option would even answer the second-hand sale option for them - who'd want to pay for a key that showed someone else's name?
leveller 23rd March 2011, 16:48 Quote
I was responding to the battle cry for publishers to drop DRM >
Quote:
Originally Posted by AstralWanderer
The only way publishers are going to be persuaded to drop DRM is by protest - and the most effective form of protest with companies is a product boycott. If publishers are as worried about sales as they claim to be, then even a modest number of dissenters will carry weight.

But it is nice to see we all agree on something (although I still have yet to experience bad DRM) >
Quote:
Originally Posted by eddtox
I'm not sure we are asking for games to be DRM-free, as such. We are just asking for the DRM to be less of a pain. IF they can develop a DRM solution which is largely unnoticeable by the customer and allows us to use our games on multiple machines, resell them or keep them for years etc, they can have it.

As for the serial numbers suggestion. It has never worked to stop piracy and never will, although merging serial numbers with accounts like Steam works against second hand sales which is a bonus.
AstralWanderer 23rd March 2011, 17:14 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by leveller
It has never worked to stop piracy and never will...
That argument can be made about any DRM system as well - especially those that make pirated versions superior from a consumer perspective. That does raise the question of what publishers' real reasons for using it may be.
DragunovHUN 23rd March 2011, 17:29 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by Woollster00
Not buying a game purely because it has DRM is the most retarded thing ever if you think like that you're a moron.
No u.

Nothing wrong with not purchasing a product because it features something that you dislike.
Insulting people for making that choice, however, is beyond retarded.
Quote:
Originally Posted by urobulos
No company out there has no DRM at all.

gog.com
Kthxbai.
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