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Valve announces Defence of the Ancients 2

Valve announces Defence of the Ancients 2

Valve has announced Defence of the Ancients 2 for PC and Mac and set for a 2011 release.

Valve has, as expected, announced a new title it currently has in development, Defence of the Ancients 2.

Rumours that Valve would announce a new DOTA game were sparked this morning when developers working at Valve, and who had previously worked on other DOTA games, hinted at an upcoming announcement.

According to a sparse press release from Valve, Defence of the Ancients 2 will be a RTS / RPG hybrid released for PC and Mac. The release date is set at 2011.

Icefrog, the anonymous developer behind Defence of the Ancients: Allstars will be leading development of the new game, which Valve bills as "a massive sequel to one of the most played games in the world." Serious Sam voice actor Jon St. John has also been linked to the game.

The Defence of the Ancients genre started as a small mod for Blizzards Warcraft games, but the unique blend of avatar-led strategy soon caught on and spawned a litter of copy-cat games.

Let us know your thoughts in the forums.

39 Comments

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rehk 13th October 2010, 18:24 Quote
this is relevant to my interests
CharlO 13th October 2010, 18:25 Quote
Do want!
Chicken76 13th October 2010, 18:25 Quote
With Icefrog working for Valve, I wonder what is going to happen to the existing DOTA. Will they allow him to keep working on it too, although it's free and not a Valve title? Or does he hold some copyright on DotA: Allstars which he brought with him over to the Valve camp?
Phalanx 13th October 2010, 18:26 Quote
Please make this newbie friendly. I'd love to get into it, but the other outings have been horrendous for learning curves.
krizby 13th October 2010, 18:35 Quote
have been DOTA player for years now, I will definitely purchase the game when it comes out, hopefully karma won't come back to bite me in the a$$ cause I wasn't exactly nice to new players :D
faugusztin 13th October 2010, 19:01 Quote
@Chicken76: did you noticed what happened to Alien Swarm developers ? That should answer your questions. True, there can be a conflict of interests, but considering Valve behavior so far, they will probably let him do anything he wants.
CharlO 13th October 2010, 20:02 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ph4lanx
Please make this newbie friendly. I'd love to get into it, but the other outings have been horrendous for learning curves.

Please don't! For real, you are a newbie for what? Two weeks? Then you have to spend a lifetime of gameplay with clipo telling you when to attack.
ZERO <ibis> 13th October 2010, 20:07 Quote
How about they focus on the games that were already supposed to come out like the next HL2 release...
Singularity 13th October 2010, 20:52 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by ZERO <ibis>
How about they focus on the games that were already supposed to come out like the next HL2 release...

QFT. No another dota...
Redbeaver 13th October 2010, 21:04 Quote
so.... what *is* DOTA?

all i heard from it is its a WoW-mod.... of turn-based RTS or some sort....

i hate WoW
i hate turn-based

but im cool with RTS......
lp1988 13th October 2010, 21:11 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by Redbeaver
so.... what *is* DOTA?

all i heard from it is its a WoW-mod.... of turn-based RTS or some sort....

i hate WoW
i hate turn-based

but im cool with RTS......

It's an Warcraft mod not WOW, and it is not turn based. but a finer explanation I will leave to other gentlemen in this fine forum as I have only a little experience with DOTA
Redbeaver 13th October 2010, 21:18 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by lp1988
Quote:
Originally Posted by Redbeaver
so.... what *is* DOTA?

all i heard from it is its a WoW-mod.... of turn-based RTS or some sort....

i hate WoW
i hate turn-based

but im cool with RTS......

It's an Warcraft mod not WOW, and it is not turn based. but a finer explanation I will leave to other gentlemen in this fine forum as I have only a little experience with DOTA

so, like a Warcraft3 with a new skin and a couple gameplay tweaks?
Sloth 13th October 2010, 21:23 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by Redbeaver
so.... what *is* DOTA?

all i heard from it is its a WoW-mod.... of turn-based RTS or some sort....

i hate WoW
i hate turn-based

but im cool with RTS......
You, uh... heard two incorrect things. It's from Warcraft, yes, but has nothing to do with WoW. It's also completely real time, which is part of the steep learning curve.

DOTA is two teams, each comprising of 5 players (typical) on opposing sides of a map. Each team has a base with basic structures comprising of a main structure (the win condition), mob spawners (will get to them later) and towers (will also cover them later). In betweent these bases is forest, rivers, cliffs, etc. with "lanes" connecting each base. These lanes are essentially paths straight to the enemy's base. Along these lanes are towers under the control of each team. The previously mentioned mob spawners spawn NPC monsters which travel down these lanes towards the enemy base. However, the opposing towers and monsters fend them off when they get to close to the enemy base.

That is where players come in. Players control avatars which generally have stats, items, levels, and four abilities (as per WC3). These avatars are controlled in a manner very similar to any hero in your generic RTS game, top down camera, click to move, etc. which is where the RTS aspect comes in. Players go down these lanes toward the enemy base to destroy enemy towers and monsters and eventually push into the enemy base to kill the main structure and win. Obviously, enemy players want to do the same thing to you, while also preventing you from getting into their base. This brings a strong player vs. player aspect to the game since all NPC aspects are perfectly balanced (most maps are made by creating one half and mirroring it) and only players can shift the balance to one side or the other. In some respects, imagine an RTS where you have one unit which respawns and a premade base. That is DOTA.

Of course, this is just a brief overview of the core gameplay. The genre is known for the subtle nuances that come about during gameplay. The various unspoken "phases" of gameplay, the expected roles, and conduct which is not explicitly explained to the new player. If you took the description that I just game and player a round you would lose, horribly. And you would continue to lose until you got an understanding of the basic pattern of the game: things that come about through years of players' trial and error.

EDIT: Yes and no about being a reskinned WC3. Yes, that's what it originally was created as, a WC3 mod, but the genre has grown out of that in many ways. Some games like Heroes of Newerth are carbon copies which essentially recreate the WC3 mod, some like League of Legends create largely their own game with various stylistic and gameplay changes. What Valve creates has yet to be seen.
vdbswong 13th October 2010, 21:32 Quote
Clicky

Very informative article on GameInformer about DotA 2. Basically surmises what it's about and what was right/wrong with DotA (player base, learning curve etc.).

Also reveals that all the Champs from DotA will be ported into the sequel. Not sure if i'm fond of this though... the thought of learning ~100 chars just seems like a huge/steep learning curve. Same thing that put me off HoN tbh.
Dreaming 13th October 2010, 21:32 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by CharlO
Please don't! For real, you are a newbie for what? Two weeks? Then you have to spend a lifetime of gameplay with clipo telling you when to attack.

In my experience you spend something like 6 months being a newbie :p you have to learn all the heroes all their abilities all the items all the synergies and all the counters... and then apply them to each different game... and thats just the knowledge requirement without going into the skill requirements of 'feeling' when to gank, when to run, when to attack, when to level, and so on...

If they made it fun and pick up and play, they could still ahve the skill ceilings like they have currently, but it wouldn't be so ridiculous for new players where they end up feeding horrifically until they have much more experience.
krizby 13th October 2010, 22:35 Quote
I love this game <3, in my opinion though there is nothing wrong with more experienced players telling new players to gank, push or defend together. During my years witnessing many new players picking Agi heroes just keep on farming and farming, ignoring everything else until it's too late to make any difference. Sure new players may feel bad at first but when you grasped the gameplay, it will be an addition :)
Nature 13th October 2010, 23:01 Quote
I wish Ice frog (the creator of DOTA) would have developt it for starcraft 2... But there's no money in a mod that requires the user to purchase a game from blizzard and not him..

Apparently the deal with valve will utilize the source engine for this RTS game.... Strange huh? Can anyone think of a source RTS game? Like using the spectator cam or something?
Loafers 13th October 2010, 23:07 Quote
I do not understand why many people are put off by Dota's learning curve. Every game has a learning curve and if it doesn't, it's usually not worth playing. How good you want to be at a particular game determines the amount of time spent practicing, playing, and learning. Dota is no exception!

The whole notion of "i gotta learn and play all 100 heroes to be good" isn't entirely accurate. When you play one game, your actually learning 10 heroes at a time.

From personal experience, learning how to play Dota should take about a month or 2 months if you don't play a lot. The longer you play the better you get. That's pretty much how it is for everything in life.

Is it worth it? Let me ask you this: Would you rather play a game that requires ridiculous APM, fast reflexes, knowledge of a dozen maps, and an indefinite amount of time spent grinding for gear to determine how good you are at a game? Or would you rather spend a game where team work, strategy, knowledge of only ONE map, and very little grinding to determine how good you are at a game?

If you chose the latter, Dota is for you.
vdbswong 13th October 2010, 23:30 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by Loafers
I do not understand why many people are put off by Dota's learning curve. Every game has a learning curve and if it doesn't, it's usually not worth playing. How good you want to be at a particular game determines the amount of time spent practicing, playing, and learning. Dota is no exception!

The whole notion of "i gotta learn and play all 100 heroes to be good" isn't entirely accurate. When you play one game, your actually learning 10 heroes at a time.

From personal experience, learning how to play Dota should take about a month or 2 months if you don't play a lot. The longer you play the better you get. That's pretty much how it is for everything in life.

Is it worth it? Let me ask you this: Would you rather play a game that requires ridiculous APM, fast reflexes, knowledge of a dozen maps, and an indefinite amount of time spent grinding for gear to determine how good you are at a game? Or would you rather spend a game where team work, strategy, knowledge of only ONE map, and very little grinding to determine how good you are at a game?

If you chose the latter, Dota is for you.

I don't necessarily think it's the steep learning curve per se. I mean something that's difficult to learn is only more rewarding once you've mastered it.

However, the problem is that the steep learning curve coupled with the very harsh and judgemental community means that often putting time in to learn the game feels like a waste of time.

The problem with DotA/HoN/LoL is that the game is so reliant on teamplay that, as the article said, having a feeding teammate (i.e. one that keeps on dying) is worse than having one not turn up at all. Since all the time you're giving the enemy player(s) EXP and Gold which gives them a distinct advantage in the game, especially early on.

Also, you state that DotA doesn't require a lot of grinding, but i'd beg to differ. The grind in "those" sorts of games (MOBAs, shall we call them, a la Riot etc.) is different but grinding nonetheless. You need to take time to learn the different champions, maybe not enough to know how to play them, but still enough to know what they do, how to counter them, how to best synergise with them. I'll go out on a limb here and assume that your average game of DotA/HoN lasts similar to a game of LoL, as such each game you invest between 25-40 (sometimes even over an hour) per game. At which you're only learning the abilities of those "10 champions" (assuming that there are no repeats on the other team).

Also, it's my experience that being "good"/"competent" at LoL (at least) isn't really something you can teach. Me and another friend introduced a load of others to LoL recently and unfortunately it is rather painful to play with them at times (read above wrt Feeding). And even though you point things out to them, it's not something that you can strictly "learn", it's something you need to experience.

Literally, the better players of that group have said that they played on their own and started to notice all the things that we told them that their other teammates did. That is how they learned the "basics" (map awareness, ganking, etc.) rather than us "babysitting" and covering for them. And at the same time, it's rather disheartening to think that it's not something that was necessarily taught, but only learned through other teammates doing bad (since you yourself might do something stupid, but you yourself won't realise it unless someone else does it and you think to yourself "wtf, why'd he do that").
CardJoe 13th October 2010, 23:43 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dreaming
Quote:
Originally Posted by CharlO
Please don't! For real, you are a newbie for what? Two weeks? Then you have to spend a lifetime of gameplay with clipo telling you when to attack.

In my experience you spend something like 6 months being a newbie :p you have to learn all the heroes all their abilities all the items all the synergies and all the counters... and then apply them to each different game... and thats just the knowledge requirement without going into the skill requirements of 'feeling' when to gank, when to run, when to attack, when to level, and so on...

Then they do an update.
Loafers 13th October 2010, 23:51 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by CardJoe
Then they do an update.
Updates were never a concern in Dota days. It was always easy to learn a new hero because they were released months apart.
Sloth 14th October 2010, 00:25 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by Loafers
I do not understand why many people are put off by Dota's learning curve. Every game has a learning curve and if it doesn't, it's usually not worth playing. How good you want to be at a particular game determines the amount of time spent practicing, playing, and learning. Dota is no exception!

The whole notion of "i gotta learn and play all 100 heroes to be good" isn't entirely accurate. When you play one game, your actually learning 10 heroes at a time.

From personal experience, learning how to play Dota should take about a month or 2 months if you don't play a lot. The longer you play the better you get. That's pretty much how it is for everything in life.

Is it worth it? Let me ask you this: Would you rather play a game that requires ridiculous APM, fast reflexes, knowledge of a dozen maps, and an indefinite amount of time spent grinding for gear to determine how good you are at a game? Or would you rather spend a game where team work, strategy, knowledge of only ONE map, and very little grinding to determine how good you are at a game?

If you chose the latter, Dota is for you.
Hah. Team work and strategy determining how good you are is laughable. Hand someone DotA for the first time and they won't even know what those mean until they've put twenty hours in. Pop in for your first game, hm? What do these stats even do? What characters are these? What do I do, why is everyone typing "Blue go bot"? What items are good for me? What ability should I get first?

And that's just the very basic, once you get that covered and run out there you're faced with what the hell is jungling? Why does everyone keep saying "green mia"? Why doesn't my team want me to kill enemy monsters and push forward? What's a denial? Why does everyone who kept telling me to stay in one lane and not push suddenly angrily tell me to help them push "mid"? Why does everyone keep yelling at me in general? I don't have any food, how can I be "feeding" something?!

Only after putting in hours (because each round takes so long) do you even understand all the tools and strategies available to you. Whether that's a bad thing or not is debatable, but it's a pretty cold hard fact. And what's more, say you're like me and get decently good at LoL and invest a good deal of time into it and really enjoy it. Congratulations, you get to learn all of that menial information over again if you want to play HoN. You know what that non-transferable knowledge is? Grinding. Even someone who already knows how to play DotA has to spend hours playing matches with the sole purpose of seeing what everyone does.

Every genre has its downside, DotA's is all of the game specific garbage you have to learn.
vdbswong 14th October 2010, 00:28 Quote
And ne'er a truer word been spoken.

Although i feel disappointed for knowing exactly what you're on about :(.
Loafers 14th October 2010, 01:26 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sloth
Hah. Team work and strategy determining how good you are is laughable. Hand someone DotA for the first time and they won't even know what those mean until they've put twenty hours in. Pop in for your first game, hm? What do these stats even do? What characters are these? What do I do, why is everyone typing "Blue go bot"? What items are good for me? What ability should I get first?

And that's just the very basic, once you get that covered and run out there you're faced with what the hell is jungling? Why does everyone keep saying "green mia"? Why doesn't my team want me to kill enemy monsters and push forward? What's a denial? Why does everyone who kept telling me to stay in one lane and not push suddenly angrily tell me to help them push "mid"? Why does everyone keep yelling at me in general? I don't have any food, how can I be "feeding" something?!

Only after putting in hours (because each round takes so long) do you even understand all the tools and strategies available to you. Whether that's a bad thing or not is debatable, but it's a pretty cold hard fact. And what's more, say you're like me and get decently good at LoL and invest a good deal of time into it and really enjoy it. Congratulations, you get to learn all of that menial information over again if you want to play HoN. You know what that non-transferable knowledge is? Grinding. Even someone who already knows how to play DotA has to spend hours playing matches with the sole purpose of seeing what everyone does.

Every genre has its downside, DotA's is all of the game specific garbage you have to learn.
I should have been more clear. Yes once you have all of the basics learned (movement, jargon, controls, etc) strategy and teamwork come into play. And you don't have to put in 20 hours to learn the basics. That's just absurd.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sloth
And what's more, say you're like me and get decently good at LoL and invest a good deal of time into it and really enjoy it. Congratulations, you get to learn all of that menial information over again if you want to play HoN.
Having never played (and never will) LoL I'm confident that the "menial information" does not have to be entirely relearned. Since LoL and HoN are influenced by DotA (especially the latter), I doubt the concept of MIA, gank, push, jungle will be any different. Heroes, on other hand, are another story...
Pliqu3011 14th October 2010, 06:50 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nature
Can anyone think of a source RTS game? Like using the spectator cam or something?
Overwatch is a hybrid RTS/FPS mod for HL2. Haven't actually played it yet, but I saw it on ModDB.
Xir 14th October 2010, 07:20 Quote
Quote:
sequel to one of the most played games in the world
I notice a lot of people here have never heared of "one of the most played games in the world"...but then again, what do we know about games and gaming...

..I'll get my coat
Loafers 14th October 2010, 07:29 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by Xir
I notice a lot of people here have never heared of "one of the most played games in the world"...but then again, what do we know about games and gaming...

..I'll get my coat
It's HUGE in Asia.
Odin Eidolon 14th October 2010, 09:37 Quote
I've played DotA for about 2 years. Then I stopped since it was a drug, dangerous ;)
Wonderful concept and game, terrible addiction. I really hope this release will fix the greatest problem with DotA (and online games in general): leavers. It shouldn't be too hard to implement some new control on the players, since I guess the game will not be played on Garena or Battle.net but on a completely new platform. Also, it would be possible to build "newbie friendly" gaming rooms, expert rooms and pro rooms.
Lastly, they should keep the computing power requirements down: everyone with a Intel 4500HD (me ;)) should be able to play. Graphics are not important in DotA imho.
impar 14th October 2010, 11:37 Quote
Greetings!
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ph4lanx
Please make this newbie friendly. I'd love to get into it, but the other outings have been horrendous for learning curves.
Quote:
Also intriguing is Game Informer's description of a coaching system:
Quote:
By logging in as a coach, veteran players can do their part to help out newer folks. Valve hasn't entirely decided on the specifics of how newbies and coaches will be matched up, but once they're together a few things happen. The coach sees the pupil's screen, and gets private voice and chat channels to communicate with them. The coach probably won't be able to take control of anything directly (once again, the details are currently under discussion), but information is power in Dota 2 and having a mentor whispering in your ear can make all the difference in the world.
BentAnat 14th October 2010, 11:40 Quote
What bothers me a bit is that they seem to be confident in the fact that they can REMAKE a game, get people to PAY FOR IT, and still be better than some of the alternatives, some of which are Free (LoL).

Call me biased here, (I am a HUGE LoL fan, in spite of never having gelled with DotA) but I don't quite see how they can. Especially without major innovation.

Riot has, after all managed to get LoL into the WCG already.
ledbythereaper 14th October 2010, 12:19 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by ZERO <ibis>
How about they focus on the games that were already supposed to come out like the next HL2 release...

Crazy idea here, but maybe Valve have several development teams? :p
Odin Eidolon 14th October 2010, 12:19 Quote
ahem, what is LoL?
I've been out from the gaming community for a while now (exept for dota, which I stopped playing one year ago)
Omnituens 14th October 2010, 12:35 Quote
League of Legends, another dota clone.

It's free to play, though every week the heroes you can play for free changes (I think there are about 8 free ones in any given week)

You can buy permanet access to a hero using IP points (earnt by playing, but it cost ALOT) or with real money by buying Riot Points, then spending them on the characters. You can also buy addition skins for the characters you play the most, if you feel like it.

Give it a try, alot of the mechanics are the same as dota abilities (if you are familiar with them, you'll read the descriptions and go "oh, thats like Omniknights heal" or something).

Ashe is similar to Drow Ranger and Alastair is like Spirit Breaker for example. Tristana is LoL's Dwarfen Sniper.

I'm just unhappy there is on FuzzyWuzzy clone in LoL :(
Th3Maverick 14th October 2010, 13:10 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by BentAnat
...What bothers me a bit is that they seem to be confident in the fact that they can REMAKE a game, get people to PAY FOR IT, and still be better than some of the alternatives, some of which are Free (LoL)...
Quote:
Originally Posted by Omnituens
...You can buy permanet access to a hero using IP points (earnt by playing, but it cost ALOT) or with real money by buying Riot Points, then spending them on the characters. You can also buy addition skins for the characters you play the most, if you feel like it...

Not really free, then, is it? Valve's done it before with CS (originally an HL mod) and then CS:S, which is essentially the same game as CS with a better engine driving it. You get what you pay for with Valve, and considering that they are more supportive of and attentive to their community than any other major publisher in the business, i think they will bring a ton of NEW players to the DoTA genre (myself included).

I've been interested in the game but never had any intention of playing it, for all the reasons previously mentioned. Now that Valve's picked it up, I will be happily paying for it when it comes out.
MaverickWill 14th October 2010, 13:13 Quote
Quote:
By logging in as a coach, veteran players can do their part to help out newer folks. Valve hasn't entirely decided on the specifics of how newbies and coaches will be matched up, but once they're together a few things happen. The coach sees the pupil's screen, and gets private voice and chat channels to communicate with them. The coach probably won't be able to take control of anything directly (once again, the details are currently under discussion), but information is power in Dota 2 and having a mentor whispering in your ear can make all the difference in the world.

"So, send your unit to attack that tower over there, while I take my pants off..."
Odin Eidolon 14th October 2010, 13:31 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by MaverickWill
"So, send your unit to attack that tower over there, while I take my pants off..."

get out. DotA is serious business. :D
vdbswong 14th October 2010, 14:07 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by Omnituens
League of Legends, another dota clone.

TBH I'd disagree that it's a clone per se, unlike say HoN imo.

LoL took a lot of the things that they thought was good with DotA and then changed others.

I.E., LoL has no denying, it has brush and doesn't have the randomness of "runes" etc.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Omnituens
It's free to play, though every week the heroes you can play for free changes (I think there are about 8 free ones in any given week)

You can buy permanet access to a hero using IP points (earnt by playing, but it cost ALOT) or with real money by buying Riot Points, then spending them on the characters. You can also buy addition skins for the characters you play the most, if you feel like it.

You've pretty much summed up the free to play system but i disagree that permanent access to a champion costs "ALOT".

There are 4-5 champs that are 450IP (esp. Ashe) which is just 4-5 wins/8-9 losses/combination of both. The bulk of the chars. are 1350/3150 and are the standard selection. Even these only take around a week / few games per night to unlock.

It's just that quite a few of the newer champions cost 6300, which does take some grinding towards. But then again, at the lower levels, IP should only be saved for champions anyways since T1/T2 runes are pointless.

Besides, people only learn a few set champions anyway and usually lean towards unlocking those. For example, i've been playing the game since April and i've pretty much unlocked every character that i'm confident with and have all the decent/standard rune setups. This means that all IP now is going towards either new characters or characters that i just want to mess around with. It's not unheard of for players who have been playing longer to amass 10/20/30K IP just because they don't need to use it anymore.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Th3Maverick
Not really free, then, is it? Valve's done it before with CS (originally an HL mod) and then CS:S, which is essentially the same game as CS with a better engine driving it. You get what you pay for with Valve, and considering that they are more supportive of and attentive to their community than any other major publisher in the business, i think they will bring a ton of NEW players to the DoTA genre (myself included).

I've been interested in the game but never had any intention of playing it, for all the reasons previously mentioned. Now that Valve's picked it up, I will be happily paying for it when it comes out.

I don't really see how you can say it's "not really free, then".

Real money serves no purpose in LoL other than to either:

a) Accelerate your levelling process by buying boosts which increase EXP/IP gain.

b) Give you quicker/easier access to characters by "buying" them.

c) Allow you to purchase skins to customise your character.

All of which are optional, all of which don't affect the gameplay.
Sloth 14th October 2010, 18:43 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by Loafers
I should have been more clear. Yes once you have all of the basics learned (movement, jargon, controls, etc) strategy and teamwork come into play. And you don't have to put in 20 hours to learn the basics. That's just absurd.
I should have been more clear as well: you'll learn the basics in just a few hours, or less if you've got friends who can help you out (highly recommended in regards to jargon) but it will take a good 20 hours before a typical person isn't just aware of the basics, but also comfortable with them and capable of applying them without guidance. The point where a person is only limited by their own application of strategy and skill and one can really see how good or bad they are, that's what takes so long.

Compare that to one of the more beginner friendly genres such as shooters where a person can quite readily figure out if they're any good at moving the mouse to their enemy and clicking. It'll take maybe 5 hours for a person to have experienced and be comfortable with every concept in your average shooter. That's why I say DotA takes forever for a beginner to get into, there's so much background information that is required when first grasping the game.
Quote:

Having never played (and never will) LoL I'm confident that the "menial information" does not have to be entirely relearned. Since LoL and HoN are influenced by DotA (especially the latter), I doubt the concept of MIA, gank, push, jungle will be any different. Heroes, on other hand, are another story...
As you say, the DotA concepts are all largely the same and will never need to be relearned, you'll still retain your basic gameplay strategy and will get to skip the aforementioned beginner period, but the heroes... Take a modest 30 hero game. For each of them you'll need to have a basic understanding of their four abilities, what their main stat is, ranged or melee, what general gear that character gets, and what role it fulfills.

That's no small feat! You can get away with not knowing a few of them, but a player is best off knowing all 120 abilities, melee or ranged is required to know for all 30, basic stat required to know for all 30, basic role should be known but it can be guessed by knowing the other info, and basic gear is heavily recommended to know (A LoL example, you know Master Yii is going to be stacking damaging stats, but further information on gear choice says he'll be getting attack speed specifically). This can be greatly rewarding because of the tactical depth it adds to the game, but it's highly prohibitive to someone who enjoys a more casual game.
CowBlazed 14th October 2010, 20:55 Quote
Alienswarm is a good example how this type of game could work on source.
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