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BioShock copy protection to go?

BioShock copy protection to go?

Ken Levine has pledged to address the copy protection problems with BioShock.

BioShock is an awesome game on both the Xbox 360 and PC, but the PC version of the game has been plagued with issues lately, ranging from the minor to the major.

The biggest problem PC gamers have had has been to do with the copy protection system placed on the game. The system, operated and created by Securom, requires gamers to have an online connection everytime they install the game and prevents players from having more than two concurrent installs. If you want to install the game a third time then you’ll have to uninstall a previous version.

Which would be annoying even if it worked well which, unfortunately, it doesn’t. Uninstalls are frequently not recognised while hardware failures further complicate matters. Trying to contact Securom as prompted often goes nowhere too and gamers can get stuck being endlessly redirected between Securom and 2K games.

The copy protection is something we’ll be investigating ourselves in the full technical review of BioShock which will be coming in the near future (these things take time, dammit!)

Still, don’t let it be said that the game developers are deaf to the pleas of gamers. Ken Levine, the main force behind BioShock and the Creative Director for the game, has left a post on the 2K forums explaining his view on the copy protection. The post promises to address the issue of copy protection, with many gamers hoping the system will be removed completely.

"I've followed up on the circular email with securom and we are working on this issue. I agree, it sucks, and we need to get that sorted.

I've been told by 2k that we will.

-Ken”


Will Securom go the way of the Dodo? We sure hope so, but what do you think? Is there a way to stop pirates and correctly protect legitimate customers? Send us your ideas in the forums.

Update: Apparently, Steam has completed an automatic update which promises to have “fixed the uninstall/reinstall issue with BioShock.”

Great, if you’ve bought the game over Steam. Not so good if you haven’t though hopefully a new patch could be doing the same thing to retail versions of the game shortly.

Update II: Apparently, 2K has now addressed the issue, though not as we may have hoped. Using what is called "Five by five plan", 2K will be issuing a 'revoke app' to address problems resulting from the original install limitations. The number of available installs will also be upped from two to five, with each computer capable of five reinstalls.

Our view? Still not good enough. I play my games over and over and I don't want to be limited to only five installs of the game, then have to buy a new PC to play it five more times. I want to have the game and be able to play and install it as much as I want - even Starforce wasn't this bad.

But that's just us - tell us what you think in the forums
.

79 Comments

Discuss in the forums Reply
quack 24th August 2007, 10:52 Quote
Quote:
Will Securom go the way of the Dodo? We sure hope so, but what do you think?
I hope so too, some games have released patches that remove the copy protection - Supreme Commander is a recent example.
Quote:
Is there a way to stop pirates and correctly protect legitimate customers?
Short answer, no. Almost every method used to date disadvantages the paying customer, and in most cases infringes their legal rights, and still doesn't stop the protection being broken.
ElZog 24th August 2007, 11:02 Quote
I know it wasn't unbreakable but I did like the copy protection Operation Flashpoint used, where copied versions degraded over time, with no problems for legitimate users.
steveo_mcg 24th August 2007, 11:23 Quote
Maybe i'm being a bit thick but i don't see how this is any better than the previous method.
naokaji 24th August 2007, 11:24 Quote
i think the way to go to protect games from pirateing would prolly be to have an account system like mmorpgs....
tie the cdkey to an account, have a db of the acounts, you can login to your account only if the account is not currently online.

sure, it would require an internet connection for the full time you want to play...
but i think that would be an acceptable trade off in return for no rootkit, no install nr. limits and so on.
steveo_mcg 24th August 2007, 11:26 Quote
Or just go the simple option, don't bother with copy protection. Its defeated with in days, can't be cheap and upsets the people who are actually supporting your business with out affecting those who are, arguably, undermining it.
Fod 24th August 2007, 11:32 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by article
I don't want to be limited to only five installs of the game, then have to buy a new PC to play it five more times

what are you smoking? that's not how it works.
Hamish 24th August 2007, 11:34 Quote
im sure i read somewhere the steam update was to fix problems with not all the bioshock files being unlocked when you activate through steam (not the securom activation)
g3n3tiX 24th August 2007, 11:42 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by naokaji
i think the way to go to protect games from pirateing would prolly be to have an account system like mmorpgs....
tie the cdkey to an account, have a db of the acounts, you can login to your account only if the account is not currently online.

sure, it would require an internet connection for the full time you want to play...
but i think that would be an acceptable trade off in return for no rootkit, no install nr. limits and so on.

Steam ?
naokaji 24th August 2007, 11:52 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by g3n3tiX
Steam ?

basicaly yes...
sure, steam has some flaws...
but some of them where fixed, and some of them could be fixed...

but i think its the best way to protect games from being pirated without having to deal with such crap as we have now with bioshock.
will. 24th August 2007, 12:23 Quote
Fod is right, thats not how it works. You can re-install as many times as you like, as long as you uninstal it first.

For example: You have 5 PC's, you can install it on all 5. If you buy a 6th PC, you can't install it unless you un-install it on one of your other 5 PC's first.

Alternatively; if you only have 1 pc with Bioshock installed, and you do a significant hardware upgrade it counts as the second install. However, if you un-install the game before upgrading and then install it afterwards it doesn't use up the install.

This article seems a bit like all the fearmongering that's all over digg right now. Bad bit-tech, no treats for you!
iwog 24th August 2007, 12:31 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by quack
I hope so too, some games have released patches that remove the copy protection - Supreme Commander is a recent example.

Didn't that take less than a month of bitching in the forums and talk of the no-cd cracked exe? All i remember was that it was bloody quick and appreciated by all.

I personally wont be buying Bioshock until there's a fix, i dont care if its legitimate or not because i want this game but i dont want to be limited by hardware faults or forgetting to uninstall before a wipe.
Speedo 24th August 2007, 12:38 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by will.
Fod is right, thats not how it works. You can re-install as many times as you like, as long as you uninstal it first.

For example: You have 5 PC's, you can install it on all 5. If you buy a 6th PC, you can't install it unless you un-install it on one of your other 5 PC's first.

Alternatively; if you only have 1 pc with Bioshock installed, and you do a significant hardware upgrade it counts as the second install. However, if you un-install the game before upgrading and then install it afterwards it doesn't use up the install.

This article seems a bit like all the fearmongering that's all over digg right now. Bad bit-tech, no treats for you!

You're talking theoretical. Have you checked the threads on 2K forums? Uninstalling doesn't give the installation activation 'credits' back in 90% of cases - it doesn't work.

I still won't be buying until it's completely removed, preferably with an official no-cd patch available.
will. 24th August 2007, 12:45 Quote
And if it doesn't work, email them.

Basically, yes its a pain, but I'd not want people to nick my work either so I'm happy to put up with it.
Tim S 24th August 2007, 13:17 Quote
When activations failed, 2k said to email SecuROM and SecuROM said to email 2k... go figure. :(
Hamish 24th August 2007, 13:20 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by will.
And if it doesn't work, email them.

Basically, yes its a pain, but I'd not want people to nick my work either so I'm happy to put up with it.

the way it is meant to work is annoying but can be put up with
but the system is broken and it doesnt work, http://www.pcgamer.com/ see the latest 2 entries in the pcgamer blog

you honestly think thats acceptable?

edit: also you're incredibly naive if you think this will stop a pirated version of the game being available within a week or so
all its done is piss off a LOT of paying customers and give the warez groups a challenge
atanum141 24th August 2007, 13:20 Quote
The blind leading the blind.
will. 24th August 2007, 13:34 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hamish
edit: also you're incredibly naive if you think this will stop a pirated version of the game being available within a week or so

Did I say that? Or are you reading my thoughts?

Your really weird because all you think about is dog testicles.

Of course it will get pirated, but it's never going to stop companies from trying to foil their efforts. And sure the whole thing is a bit messed up at the moment. But doesn't anyone remember how messed up HL2's release was? That got sorted pretty sharpish. I think its damn amazing how quick 2K are trying to deal with this.
boggsi 24th August 2007, 13:59 Quote
I cant say i've had any issues. I dislike the idea of extra software doing something I have no care for i.e. starforce. But I would say for every issue I did have I would probably be inspired to go seed a few torrents. Companies need to learn they cant disadvantage the genuine consumer in the war on piracy!
[USRF]Obiwan 24th August 2007, 14:17 Quote
The only ones that are happy with copy protections are the crackers. Or else they would be out of a job and cannot pride themselfs anymore in the warezscenes. Its a challenge for them to crack the code, its an challenge for us to make the game work with the annoying copy protection, wich in many cases are doomed to fail. The consumer on the search for a better way. will then soon fall over a dozen cracks that actually make the copy protected game work the way the consumer wanted in the first place.

So did the copy protection of bioshock actually prevented a copy? Hell no! The game was released fully cracked in the warezscene a few days before the official release, and available through "different sources". So did the evil me download a copy? No, because i am a strong supporter of good quality games. And i pay for a good game out of respect for the creators of the game.

Would i use a crack for nocd/dvd? If i would needed it, or it would make the game work on my system, yes i will...
Kipman725 24th August 2007, 14:23 Quote
hmm something even worse than starforce :D

in a kind of unrelated topic why do the new versions of punkbuster run all the time in the background on windows computers?
Firehed 24th August 2007, 14:35 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by atanum141
The blind leading the blind.
Woah, hold on now, I don't work for 2K.

Oh, wait... you mean this happens at MORE THAN ONE company? Damn.

Anyways, I'm basically avoiding buying any games from now on that have any more copy protection on them than Oblivion did (read: none). I've had it be problematic several times in the past, and I'm well past sick of it. It's a stupid system that's left over from the eighties that doesn't work anymore. It's easy for Joe Blow to pirate stuff now if he wants to. Some people are happy to be honest, and some want to actually support the developers so they keep producing good content. People who won't pay for whatever reason are going to find a way to make it happen; so it's best to not irritate those who will.
topher 24th August 2007, 14:39 Quote
They can suck my balls if they think im buying a game with that **** on it.
nakchak 24th August 2007, 14:58 Quote
DRM in all shapes and forms blows

Always thought that the "Rights Management" part of DRM sounded like something straight out of 1984

Unfortunately as like music, films, books and pretty much every game before it, you never own it, just license it from the entity with the copyright for it. By installing the game and accepting the EULA you are agreeing to there terms, how ever restrictive they are.

Excuse my ignorance of the specifics, but doesnt securom offer a service like M$ does with office and XP where you can request a new activation key if yours has expired through reinstallation?

I know its a pain in the ass, but we have all managed so far to deal with the hassle of software activation, does it really matter if games also start deploying this form of protection?
It seems to be the easiest form of copy protection going, imagine if you had a different hardware dongle for each peice of software you had to activate, it would for me take up about 12 usb ports just to run my sofware. if you had a system which used a single stick but allowed multiple keys to be stored, then it would never work due to differing copy protection systems and versions of the systems in use. Although it may be bypassable like all forms of software protection it provides enough of a hinderence to most to purchase legit licenses. And to be fair nothing has really ever worked to stop wholesale piracy of games. e.g. copy protection thats bypassable with marker pen, or a really old cd or dvd drive, or serial numbers. Or you have to make the game rely on central servers and online play so you can charge subscription for the games

At the end of the day i fail to understand the mentality of people who complain about having to pay for something they will enjoy. fair enough steal boring/work related software if you want, but not games
naokaji 24th August 2007, 16:09 Quote
i just bit the bullet.....

i got a fancy new metal case, theres something in it.... it's called BioShock....

i hope some others can control their urges better than me and dont buy it though due to the stupid limitations....
Hamish 24th August 2007, 16:44 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by will.
Did I say that? Or are you reading my thoughts?

Your really weird because all you think about is dog testicles.

Of course it will get pirated, but it's never going to stop companies from trying to foil their efforts. And sure the whole thing is a bit messed up at the moment. But doesn't anyone remember how messed up HL2's release was? That got sorted pretty sharpish. I think its damn amazing how quick 2K are trying to deal with this.
yes you did
Quote:
Originally Posted by will.
but I'd not want people to nick my work either so I'm happy to put up with it.
implies you somehow think this copy protection will stop people nicking it

also "you're"
will. 24th August 2007, 17:11 Quote
How does that imply that I think it stops piracy? I was just saying that if there was something that I could do to try and stop it, I'd give it a go. For example, I made a flash game the other week. I know its going to get hacked. There isn't much I can do about it. If there are people out there that want to hack it, they will. Doesn't mean I'm going to make it easier for them.

Also: So? I make spuling mashtake in teh webernets. Go think about yor dog's testicles.
Lucidity 24th August 2007, 17:46 Quote
1 more reason consoles are quickly becoming the superior source for gaming.
airchie 24th August 2007, 18:02 Quote
Copy-protection doesn't work, pure and simple.
Putting copy-protection on a games that can prevent legitimate users enjoyment is completely stupid.

To put it simply:-

Games with Copy-Protection
Pros: none
Cons: Hinders legit users often driving them to virus/malware-ridden cracks, increases production costs which is passed onto legit users, doesn't prevent copying.

Games without Copy-Protection
Pros: legit users can play without issue, novices users likely to experience less issues
Cons: Makes the game easy to copy


When will they learn that annoying the paying userbase is like putting your wedding tackle in a lions mouth while simultaneously flicking his love-spuds with a wet towel?
boiled_elephant 24th August 2007, 18:27 Quote
Hamish - I smell a flame war brewing under your calm exterior :)

I'm going to speak out for the illegal portion of gamers, who seem to be ashamed. I'm not; I agree that some ***** in a tracksuit copying a game, running off two thousand copies and selling them at the high street for next-to-nothing is a serious crime. I hate it, not least because the copied products - be they games, films or music - are always inferior and less enjoyable.
That said, I don't consider it a crime on the same level if I take a copy of one of my games round to my friend's house and install it on his machine. Sorry: I just don't. It's only a crime on paper: in reality, I'm only stealing about 0.2 pence from each employee who worked on the game, and I think they'll forgive me. If not, I'll remind them how much money Value Added Tax steals from THEM every time they buy anything. (Clue: it's more than 0.2 pence.)

It's what I call sociable piracy, and I'm all in favour. Even if a thousand people do it, the profit margins still have these companies covered by thousands and thousands of pounds. Securom will eventually stop me committing sociable piracy, but - and here's the thing - it will NOT stop the tracksuited ***** on the market stall. Hence, I am against it.
Amon 24th August 2007, 18:34 Quote
The two install instance limit is perfectly fine. As long as we don't get another Starforce optical drive incompatibility nightmare all over again.
Solidus 24th August 2007, 18:39 Quote
The games companys will never learn. When has anything ever failed to be cracked? Microsoft tooted their horn with vista and they are a BILLION dollar company that have spent years creating this piece of software....BANG...its cracked in less than a month, i think even less than a week?!

Stupidity. They honestly think they can use securom to stop pirates. These guys are good, they are determined and with enough of them working on a product like this, its just a matter of time.
The problem now is i would have actually bought a legit copy of the game, it seems amazing but seeing how much hassle i could go through if i did that - im more tempted to pirate it because i dont want what happened to the guy on pcgamer.com to happen to me where i spend hard earned cash on a game that wont even work.
Ramble 24th August 2007, 18:39 Quote
I could care less about the copy protection, the widescreen issues, whatever. I just want the game to play at a reasonable framerate without dropping into the teens.
I think I'll go cry in a corner now.
leexgx 24th August 2007, 19:05 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kipman725
hmm something even worse than starforce :D

in a kind of unrelated topic why do the new versions of punkbuster run all the time in the background on windows computers?

Punkbuser A and B service

vista is why its there now

when you use punkbuster it had to have full admin rights so it can check for cheats so if you started the game in vista and not give it admin you get kicked from an server Punkbuster A Allways runs unless you set it to manual service start as it should be any way

your going to start seening alot more programs that need admin rights do this more offen

------------ on topic -------------
surcrom v7 sucks not even going to buy the game untill its removed the activation should be done After the game has been installed as well what happens if company goes bust (probly unlikey) whow are we going to install it as we cant patch the game to remove it so(that allso goes for World in Conflict as well if thay have it in there unless theres an no cd as well)
das_mod 24th August 2007, 19:15 Quote
i never had any issues with starforce .... and for as bad as people said it was, i never actually cared ...
but securom is really done a good act here (note the sarcasm)
so, they think that by overdoing the copy protection is going to prevent piracy ???
wow .... good logic there (note more sarcasm)
Instead, of me actually purchasing the retail game, i will opt for a p*rated copy which im almost
sure will have no issues being reinstalled over and over .....

GREAT JOB SECUROM :|
Computer Gremlin 24th August 2007, 19:21 Quote
When secureROM started being bundled with game demos I stopped downloading them. Then Ubisoft thought it was being funny by adding secureROM to a couple of their retail games and not removing the rootkit after the game was uninstalled. They now can burn in eternal hell for for the three days I spent trying to remove the accursed rootkit from my computer.

Until recently my plans were to make another computer with Vista 64bit, 4GB of memory and 8800 GTX but now that secureROM officially makes Bioshock unusable for the PC the old Pentium 4 is looking like it will stay around for a couple more years. SecureROM is a vicious parasite and if you use it on your games and your not getting any of my money to support your company.
wafflesomd 24th August 2007, 19:21 Quote
Watch me care.
completemadness 24th August 2007, 19:24 Quote
Quote:
even Starforce wasn't this bad.
ooo dunno about that, but its pretty bad

BTW, did you know
a) you cant completely uninstall securom ? (at least without extreme difficulty, and its not official either)
b) the bioshock demo comes with securom

Come on 2K - way to fck up a good game <_<
I'm still not buying it till this crap is removed, even then, this whole ordeal just leaves a bad taste in my mouth, i don't know if i want to support such a bunch of a*******
johnnyboy700 24th August 2007, 19:47 Quote
I'm all for stopping piracy and getting quality games in return but it is frustrating when new technology sort of works and creates so many problems. I haven't bought my copy of the game yet as I'm currently bulding my dream PC (don't think it will run on my X800 card) but this will be one of my first purchases once its up and running.
I supose it will all be resolved by then but its just damned annoying at this stage, its a good job that most PC users have been accustomed to having to patch games straight out of the box these days and I reckon that the only way that 2K will get away with this is because they have such a special game on their hands. if it was anything less than stunning them they might have a real problem if the gaming community shunned the game because of the Securom issues.
impar 24th August 2007, 23:56 Quote
Greetings!

Reported here how to uninstall SecureROM rootkit:
http://forums.2kgames.com/forums/showthread.php?t=6948

Truly a pity 2K decided to go this route. Bioshock could have been the 2007 GOTY.
Bl4ckM0onk3y 25th August 2007, 01:11 Quote
People waited 1 year for copy protection to be removed and for a working crack to Splinter Cell : Chaos Theory , and when it finnaly came no one from UbiSoft cried about it . Well i don't want to buy a game with copy activation like M$ windoze , and especially when i buy it fair and square and then i must download a crack to get it working . This is stupid.
DXR_13KE 25th August 2007, 01:45 Quote
great way to fcuk a game......
Rebourne 25th August 2007, 02:39 Quote
That's still ridiculous, I bought the game I should be able to install it as many times as I want. I don't want to have to use a crack to play a game I bought, that's absurd and it makes me think I should have pirated it to begin with. Although I won't do that because I want to support PC gaming as much as I can. But still it makes you think....

So yeah, it's pretty much testicals.
specofdust 25th August 2007, 10:52 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ramble
I could care less about the copy protection.

Argh, no, you mean "I couldn't care less". I don't know what idiot made that original perversion but it's bloody annoying.
ElZog 25th August 2007, 11:50 Quote
Actually I read something about the could/couldn't and found some people use 'could care less' to show they aren't putting much effort into the not caring, whereas 'couldn't care less' implies you are really working at the not caring.


Something silly like that anyway.
Bigturk 25th August 2007, 13:24 Quote
i tink ill just d/l and play non hassel then :D,

So what do you do if you have no internet, some places in europe still dont have net everywhere, so the only choice iz Pirate copy
specofdust 25th August 2007, 13:54 Quote
Shamelessly stolen from Digg:
Quote:
Originally Posted by TripcodeMel
Is man not entitled to the game he buys?

NO, says the man at Securom. It belongs to 2K.
NO, says the man at 2K. It belongs to us.
NO, says the man at Microsoft. It belongs to our license purchasers.

I rejected those answers.

Instead, I chose something different. I chose the impossible. I chose...piracy! Where the gamer would not be censored, where the PC owner would not be bound by petty encryption, where the buyer would not be constrained by corporate greed. And with the downloading of your torrents, piracy could become your salvation

I lolled.
Clocked 25th August 2007, 14:36 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by airchie

When will they learn that annoying the paying userbase is like putting your wedding tackle in a lions mouth while simultaneously flicking his love-spuds with a wet towel?

*chortle* aaahhh Red Dwarf is the best...
[USRF]Obiwan 25th August 2007, 15:03 Quote
Ok peeps! this is awesome! Appearently 2Kgames are going to give Racer_S the person who made a patch for the fov a free 8800. And there is some more info about the copy protection also.

Quote:
And as for widescreen, we also want to say we completely understand a user's desire to augment their FOV. BioShock is a harrowing experience, but we don't want anyone to feel limited (or motion sick!). So we are in the process of working on an official PC patch to give widescreen PC users a choice to expand their horizontal FOV, and are investigating creating a similar update for the 360.

And finally, I want to personally congratulate Racer_S from the Widescreen Gaming Forums, and his awesome user patch to expand the widescreen FOV in BioShock. I'm currently tracking him down via email, but hopefully, he'll accept my gratitude, and maybe an Nvidia 8800 to boot.

2kgames.com
steveo_mcg 25th August 2007, 15:10 Quote
Lucky guy, nice of them really. Doesn't excuse them for the copy protection issue though, presumably trying to drum up some good pr out of all this.
Tim S 25th August 2007, 15:15 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by specofdust
Shamelessly stolen from Digg:



I lolled.
Rofl, the demo script has been rewritten
Lex 25th August 2007, 18:35 Quote
I understand the urge to create an über-copyprotection to a game like BioShock but limiting the times you can install the game is just completely ridiculous.

Way to go...
impar 25th August 2007, 19:22 Quote
Greetings!
Quote:
Originally Posted by [USRF]Obiwan
Ok peeps! this is awesome! Appearently 2Kgames are going to give Racer_S the person who made a patch for the fov a free 8800. And there is some more info about the copy protection also.
A publicity stunt to clear bad PR after the DRM/Rootkit issue was found.
Rebourne 26th August 2007, 03:41 Quote
Well it's officially been cracked, not well but it has been and in a little under a week. All this trouble to paying customers for five days.
f00dl3 26th August 2007, 05:41 Quote
On one hand, they already require you to enter a key, activate the product, and have DVD in the drive to play the game. What is the purpose of this install / uninstall authentication?


On the other hand, it's working. We got a Game of the Year here that has yet to be cracked!
impar 26th August 2007, 11:28 Quote
Greetings!
Quote:
Originally Posted by f00dl3
We got a Game of the Year here that has yet to be cracked!
It was cracked yesterday.

Well, SecuROM gets flagged as a false positive by Rootkit Revealer:
http://forum.sysinternals.com/forum_posts.asp?TID=11253&KW=securom

Still malware, though. If for anything else, the pain to remove it from the system.
Might get it eventually when the patch with the added activations gets out.
completemadness 26th August 2007, 12:04 Quote
yes the securom is only flagged because it has a * in it - which isn't a character you should use
They are just trying to bring it to peoples attention though

I can see why you shouldn't be able to delete the keys, if you have a demo of something that expires, there needs to be a record somewhere

However, i don't understand why the bioshock demo comes with securom, why are they protecting a free game anyone can d/l ? its completely pointless
I think 2K have made 1 too many mistakes, and now they have a lot of people on their back

However, IMO, this whole rootkit crap that everyone's coming out with now about securom, is complete tosh, odds are you already have the damn thing for some other game, why its suddenly getting pinned on 2K i don't know

Edit:
@impar - about that gamespot editorial stuff
i was about to write this guy is an idiot, but he actually does make a couple of good points, and i do largely agree with him
The one point i would give on this whole DRM crap though
"However, retail packaging has no notification that DRM software is installed along with the copy of Bioshock. In the financial world, lack of disclosure is a crime, and this type of situation is likely to bring about the need for industry oversight."
Yes i think that's right, there should be a warning that DRM software will be installed

However, i still do not believe securom is a rootkit, its not even close
Firstly, it doesn't actually hide itself from the user, you have to show hidden folders, but half of the folders on windows are hidden anyway - is windows a rootkit ?? (OK this is stupid but i just think this whole issue is becoming retarded)
Secondly, securom does not act in anywhere near the same fassion as a rootkit, rootkits modify important parts of your OS, so that you can no longer find them, when you goto the process list, it will be a process list shown by the rootkit, but hiding the rootkits process
when you go into explorer, again it will be the rootkits explorer, hiding the rootkits files from you
The problem with rootkits is, they take over major parts of your OS, and as such, your OS is now lieing to you in effect, you can no longer trust it, and the only way to truly and safely get rid of a real rootkit, is to re-install windows
Quote:
Ok lets get this straightened out. Nothing that hides itself from the OS and tries to make itself unremovable is harmless.Securom is a rootkit and breaks the windows security model and leaves a huge backdoor for hackers to use.
This guy is a retard
Firstly, you cant hide ANYTHING from the OS, the os is what runs it, it is the last link between the hardware, and as such it has to know everything
However, what a rootkit does is modify the outputs to you, the user, from the OS, so that what its telling you is no longer the truth
The OS still knows whats going on fine, but your frontend is buggered

This rootkit revealer thing is bogus as well, rootkit revealer looks for things that shouldn't be there and flags them, characters like * are not really allowed in the registry, and are therefore flagged
What rootkit revealer is actually trying to do, it uses something like regedit, and asks what a key is
It then goes and gets the registry file (i believe), opens it up, and finds out what it is (without using the OS) it then compares the 2 keys, if they are the same, the OS was telling the truth, If they are different, the OS is lying to you

A real rootkit, made properly for the OS your running on, can technically be completely invisible, and technically it would be possible to hide one forever, without a user ever knowing
However, that would be pointless, and a rootkit is usually there to do something for the hacker who placed it, and things like keyloggers have to send packets off to the hacker, at which point you can see this odd, improper traffic
But don't kid yourselves people, real rootkits are a complete b****** to find, and rootkitreveler isn't a surefire way of finding anything

Now, i hate securom as much as the next person, but i like to stick to facts, and what is being spread at the moment is complete crap, its scare tactics, and its being latched onto the real problems with bioshock
If you have a problem with the way securom operates (making itself hard to delete) take it up with securom, its not 2K's fault, and its unlikely they could even fix it anyway
specofdust 26th August 2007, 12:15 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by completemadness
I can see why you shouldn't be able to delete the keys, if you have a demo of something that expires, there needs to be a record somewhere

What? It's YOUR PC. You own it, you own the hard disk, you can do whatever the hell you want with it including delete registry keys.

And to answer why demo's come with anti-piracy tools, it's generally to prevent the exe or data files of the demo itself being cracked open which can aid with cracking the main game.
completemadness 26th August 2007, 12:29 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by specofdust
What? It's YOUR PC. You own it, you own the hard disk, you can do whatever the hell you want with it including delete registry keys.
So lets say you go and try out a piece of trialware, the licence says your allowed to use it for 14 days and then its inactivated
There has to be a permanent registry key to keep track of that

If you delete (or modify) the registry key, you get another trail, and you are breaking the license agreement
as far as i can tell, things like that pretty much only serve to try and circumvent the license agreement
They could do it another way, what if you had an account with them (like steam) then they can easily keep track of if you've demo'd it, but then systems like steam get yelled about too

IMO, having to have the CD in the drive is a pain in the ass, and i use daemon tools just to stop using my originals anyway
I don't know how you compromise between consumer satisfaction and a all out buffet for crackers

I will say though, this activation crap is way past the line
Quote:
And to answer why demo's come with anti-piracy tools, it's generally to prevent the exe or data files of the demo itself being cracked open which can aid with cracking the main game.
Seems like stemming the tide to me, its gonna be broken anyway, so whats the point
Again its only served to piss everyone off anyway
steveo_mcg 26th August 2007, 13:30 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by completemadness
So lets say you go and try out a piece of trialware, the licence says your allowed to use it for 14 days and then its inactivated
There has to be a permanent registry key to keep track of that

If you delete (or modify) the registry key, you get another trail, and you are breaking the license agreement
as far as i can tell, things like that pretty much only serve to try and circumvent the license agreement
They could do it another way, what if you had an account with them (like steam) then they can easily keep track of if you've demo'd it, but then systems like steam get yelled about too

So you've broken the licence agreement, its then up to them to chase you down legally not to damage or modifiy your computer. Companies have to do a bit of risk assessment and factor in that some people will not buy their product, they will steal it, and realise that not every download will be a sale and not every person using their software would be a sale. Personally i wish people would start only using software they've paid for, it would do one of two things, drop the price or drive up the usage of open source software which would benefit every one.
IncBot 26th August 2007, 13:30 Quote
Quote:
"A man has a choice. I chose the impossible. I built a city where the artist would not fear the censor, where the great would not be constrained by the small, where the scientist would not be bound by petty morality. I chose to build....
Rapture."

There wouldn't have been SecuROM in Rapture....
specofdust 26th August 2007, 20:00 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by IncBot
There wouldn't have been SecuROM in Rapture....

Actually, that's not true. Objectivism places no restrictions on a business, they can do as they please within the law. But in an objectivist paradise no-one would buy such a product.
boiled_elephant 27th August 2007, 17:23 Quote
...opening up the dizzying prospect of games within games, as first toyed with in Doom 3...
Veles 27th August 2007, 17:39 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by specofdust
Actually, that's not true. Objectivism places no restrictions on a business, they can do as they please within the law. But in an objectivist paradise no-one would buy such a product.

Was gonna say we can do that now, but then I suppose any company would be free to make an exact copy of the game without the copy protection? Therefore that company would get the sales while the other loses out.
impar 27th August 2007, 17:40 Quote
specofdust 27th August 2007, 17:45 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by Veles
Was gonna say we can do that now, but then I suppose any company would be free to make an exact copy of the game without the copy protection? Therefore that company would get the sales while the other loses out.

I don't believe Rand did much on copyright, it was a fairly new industry when she did the bulk of her writing, and not something she covered in any of the works I've read by her. But chances are that the idealised Objectivist paradise would include some extremely stringent "intellectual property" laws and that, in fact, no-one would be free to copy anything.
boiled_elephant 29th August 2007, 01:26 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by impar
Greetings!

Uh-oh...
http://forums.2kgames.com/forums/showthread.php?t=8703

Ha ha! And Big Brother spake, and lo, the issue did close.
Tim S 29th August 2007, 10:02 Quote
Read that whole thread last night... I don't think the guy knows everything there is to know - he's making a lot of assumptions.
CardJoe 29th August 2007, 10:19 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by boiled_elephant
...opening up the dizzying prospect of games within games, as first toyed with in Doom 3...

Opened up first, to my knowledge, in Day of The Tentacle actually. If you used Cousin Eds PC as Bernard then you could access the whole of Maniac Mansion, the prequel to DOTT and play through the original full game.

Of course, doubtless there were game-in-game things in RPGs long before that. Its hard to think of a decent RPG which doesn't feature a gambling sub-game at some point.
Bauul 30th August 2007, 10:12 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by CardJoe
Opened up first, to my knowledge, in Day of The Tentacle actually. If you used Cousin Eds PC as Bernard then you could access the whole of Maniac Mansion, the prequel to DOTT and play through the original full game.

Of course, doubtless there were game-in-game things in RPGs long before that. Its hard to think of a decent RPG which doesn't feature a gambling sub-game at some point.

Ah not so fast Mr. Martin. In DOTT, when you accessed Ed's PC, all it really did was shut down DOTT and load up Maniac Mansion. IIRC, there was no way back from Maniac Mansion to DOTT, you had to reload a saved game, hardly a game within a game. And those old RPG's gambling games weren't exactly seperate games either, just mini games really, of which huge numbers of games had.

Running the original Doom on a monitor inside a level in the Doom 3 engine... now that really is a game within a game.
CardJoe 30th August 2007, 10:43 Quote
Ok, what about Shemue? In the arcades in that you could play loads of games on the arcade system there.
DougEdey 30th August 2007, 10:46 Quote
PGR3 has Geometry wars in it.

The next Geometry wars will be in PGR4
CardJoe 30th August 2007, 11:00 Quote
AHA! An even better example:

System Shock 2; it had the PiG gameboy thing which you used to hack things with and which you could play games on, like Overworld Zero, an RPG on which you could save progress etc.

Also, the Lander game on the PDA in The Dig. That was good too.
whisperwolf 30th August 2007, 11:02 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by DougEdey
PGR3 has Geometry wars in it.

The next Geometry wars will be in PGR4

PGR2 had geometry wars, PGR3 had Geometry wars: retro Evolved demo
DougEdey 30th August 2007, 11:05 Quote
PGR3 had the whole game in it
quack 1st September 2007, 01:27 Quote
And the activation is cracked!
wuyanxu 1st September 2007, 10:40 Quote
although it's cracked, i am still very happy that i bought it, supported the developer. this game is truly amazing. worth every penny
quack 1st September 2007, 16:09 Quote
I agree, I own the collector's edition - my big daddy figurine rocks.
Tulatin 1st September 2007, 16:25 Quote
Yeah, i had a look at the activation crack. Either someone is an idiot, and gave away their own activated paul.dll, bioshock.exe and securom registry keys, or they figured out how these keys (they're LOOOONG) interact with these two files, and as such, produced a compliant pair.
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