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Opera says IE removal "not enough"

Opera says IE removal "not enough"

Not surprisingly, Opera has said that Microsoft’s offer to completely remove Internet Explorer from Windows 7 was not enough to restore competition.

Not surprisingly, Opera has said that Microsoft’s offer to completely remove Internet Explorer from Windows 7 was not enough to restore competition.

I don’t think what Microsoft announced is going to restore competition,” said Hakon Wium Lie, Opera’s Chief Technology Officer. “I don’t think it’s going to be enough, I don’t think it will get them off the hook.

Microsoft’s announcement came shortly before the European Commission is due to make a decision on antitrust charges brought against the software giant in January. The complaint claimed that Microsoft abuses its dominant position by bundling Internet Explorer with Windows, therefore shielding it from head-to-head competition with rivals such as Firefox and Opera.

The software giant has claimed in the past that Internet Explorer was a fundamental part of the operating system and with Windows 7 it’s clearly not given Microsoft’s proposal to remove IE from European editions of the new OS. However, since Microsoft said it has no plans to invest time and money into creating browser-less versions of Windows Vista and Windows XP because they’re soon to disappear from the market, it could be that code changes made in Windows 7 (in light of the EU’s charges) mean that it’s no longer required.

If Microsoft’s proposal does go through, it will break Windows 7 because, according to Microsoft, you will no longer be able to upgrade from a previous version of Windows and keep all of your settings – including your browser of choice even if it isn’t Internet Explorer. We’re sure something will be worked out before Windows 7’s release date and, hopefully, it’s not the proposal put forwards by Microsoft.

The software giant has had a jaded past when it comes to supporting third-party web browsers after pushing Netscape out of the market using underhand tactics. Microsoft deserves to be taken to the task for that, but that doesn’t make this particular Soap Opera any less ridiculous in our eyes since it was filed long after Netscape’s demise.

Maybe what Microsoft needs to do is to create Windows 7 Everything Uninstalled Edition, just to appease EU regulators. Share your thoughts in the forums.

73 Comments

Discuss in the forums Reply
samkiller42 13th June 2009, 12:32 Quote
Oh my dear god, this is ridiculas, when will it end?

Sam
kenco_uk 13th June 2009, 12:34 Quote
It needs to be an option upon first boot/installation. There needs to be more options when installing the OS, i.e. the basic/fundamental parts need to be brought to the fore and made optional.

When configuring XP, it's not really until after you've installed that you can tweak/uninstall bits you don't want (short of nliteing the original cd image and the general buying public are not knowledgable enough to tinker about).

In contrast, the installation of MS Office is highly configurable. You can pick and choose pretty much anything you want/don't want. I perhaps naievely think it strange that there's nowhere near the options available when installing an OS.
capnPedro 13th June 2009, 12:52 Quote
I really don't want them to remove Internet Explorer!
How would I download Firefox!?

I jest, I jest, but seriously; FTP.
liratheal 13th June 2009, 13:11 Quote
..wow.

The waahmbulance is strong with this guy.
Mister_Tad 13th June 2009, 13:31 Quote
Opera need to swivel tbh
flibblesan 13th June 2009, 13:34 Quote
Opera is just upset because it's no way near as popular as Firefox
tejas 13th June 2009, 13:52 Quote
well said mistertad and flibblesan. Opera is the minnow and least popular browser. Wonder when they will complain to the EU about Firefox, Safari and Google Chrome?
p3n 13th June 2009, 14:04 Quote
Opera is just mad cos alcohol costs so much in Norway
Darkraven 13th June 2009, 14:20 Quote
Hmmmm...maybe that is problem, alcohol expensive but drugs too cheap.
ry@n 13th June 2009, 14:37 Quote
I still don't understand why MS have to remove it, Windows 7 is their product so they should be allowed to include their own internet browser. Whether or not they remove IE its not going to make a difference to what browser each person preferes and will use.
silverphoenix 13th June 2009, 14:49 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by ry@n
I still don't understand why MS have to remove it, Windows 7 is their product so they should be allowed to include their own internet browser. Whether or not they remove IE its not going to make a difference to what browser each person preferes and will use.

exactly, its like if Toyota only offered their car with their own Radios would companies like Philips and Sony sue them? Should Toyota offer their cars radioless only as well?

I think if MS was making it hard to install another browser or preventing it somehow then maybe we'd have a case. But how hard is it to install Opera or FF, if anything IE helps aid you in getting FF, Opera, Chrome installed!!
Matticus 13th June 2009, 14:58 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by silverphoenix
exactly, its like if Toyota only offered their car with their own Radios would companies like Philips and Sony sue them? Should Toyota offer their cars radioless only as well?

I think if MS was making it hard to install another browser or preventing it somehow then maybe we'd have a case. But how hard is it to install Opera or FF, if anything IE helps aid you in getting FF, Opera, Chrome installed!!

Not the best analogy as most car makers standard radios are made by sony/phillips/blaupunkt etc. But I know what you are saying.

Opera are just moaning about nothing, what more do they want? I guess they are pushing for some sort of choice when the OS is installed, or OEM install is set up when the customer gets their machine, choose Opera, FF or IE. if that was the case 99% of people buying a whole computer would choose IE. Most people that install their own OS would probably skip it as they would have the newest version of whatever browser on their pen drive or a disk.

Basically opera need to shut the hell up.
capnPedro 13th June 2009, 15:07 Quote
Even if they do convince (sue) MS into removing IE, there will be billions of IE8 CDs put in computer shops. And they'll be bundled with every prebuilt machine. And Opera has achieved nothing, because everyone will take "an internet disc" because it's free, and obviously they want to be able to access the internet on their new PC.
WildThing 13th June 2009, 15:07 Quote
Ok, Opera fanboy here, but seriously I have to agree with what most have said here. I think Opera are taking things too far, although having more options during the OS install like asking you what browser you want, could be a good thing. Though I admit it seems doubtful anything like that will happen.
yodasarmpit 13th June 2009, 15:11 Quote
The day MS prevent you from installing another browser, is the day Opera have a legitimate complaint.
At the moment, I'll quote Mister_Tad "Opera need to swivel tbh "
thEcat 13th June 2009, 15:16 Quote
Quote:
Microsoft’s announcement came shortly before the European Commission is due to make a decision on antitrust charges brought against the software giant in January.

Why is Microsoft pre-empting the EC ruling ?
Quote:
The complaint claimed that Microsoft abuses its dominant position by bundling Internet Explorer with Windows, therefore shielding it from head-to-head competition with rivals such as Firefox and Opera.

What is it about an internet browser that makes it such a significant application ?
Quote:
The software giant has claimed in the past that Internet Explorer was a fundamental part of the operating system

It was shown in US court a decade or so ago that IE had been deliberately and unnecessarily engineered to ensure this was the case.
Quote:

If Microsoft’s proposal does go through, it will break Windows 7 because, according to Microsoft, you will no longer be able to upgrade from a previous version of Windows and keep all of your settings – including your browser of choice even if it isn’t Internet Explorer.

Quote:

Maybe what Microsoft needs to do is to create Windows 7 Everything Uninstalled Edition, just to appease EU regulators

From the US antitrust case:
Quote:
When the judge ordered Microsoft to offer a version of Windows which did not include Internet Explorer, Microsoft responded that the company would offer manufacturers a choice: one version of Windows that was obsolete, or another that did not work properly. The judge asked, "It seemed absolutely clear to you that I entered an order that required that you distribute a product that would not work?" David D. Cole, a Microsoft vice president, replied, "In plain English, yes. We followed that order. It wasn't my place to consider the consequences of that."

... and so history repeats itself. Microsoft, the eternal petulant child, resorting to FUD to further its monopolistic ambitions.

Supporting quotes from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_v._Microsoft, corroborating sources also available.
sear 13th June 2009, 15:31 Quote
I think I speak for all of us when I say that Opera needs to shut the hell up. Normally I appreciate their guts in attacking Microsoft but increasingly over the last few months, their claims have become less and less legitimate, while the quality of their own product stagnates. They're starting to sound a lot less like Saviours of the Internet and a lot more like whiny PETA members.
naokaji 13th June 2009, 17:10 Quote
Opera should STFU.

Seriously, as long as many websites don't work properly with Opera they will never have a high marketshare and even if MS would bundle Opera and no other browser with Windows people would just use it once to download a browser that works.
Zurechial 13th June 2009, 17:24 Quote
Oh **** off Opera.

Why is our tax-money being wasted by Opera badgering the EU about products that are free to the end-user, over an issue which made sweet ****-all difference to the end-user?
Quote:
Originally Posted by yodasarmpit
The day MS prevent you from installing another browser, is the day Opera have a legitimate complaint.
At the moment, I'll quote Mister_Tad "Opera need to swivel tbh "

+1

I'm tempted to take Opera off my WinMo phone after this.
It may be a futile gesture of consumer fist-waving, but I think I'll get tired of grimacing every time I see the opera logo in future.
fangfufu 13th June 2009, 17:52 Quote
I have uninstalled Opera from my PC. Opera can kiss my ***.
Mister_Tad 13th June 2009, 18:05 Quote
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/technology/8095932.stm

Form an orderly queue please, Symantec and McAffee et al.
dicobalt 13th June 2009, 18:40 Quote
Most people don't even know Opera exists. That is their problem.
Zurechial 13th June 2009, 18:47 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by dicobalt
Most people don't even care Opera exists. That is their problem.

Fixed. :p
Smilodon 13th June 2009, 18:58 Quote
Opera is starting to lose credibility, really.

I don't use IE much. I prefer Firefox, but IE is a necessity because not all web pages work in FF/Opera.


I don't know what opera wants, but I guess they want some sort of selection-thing when you install a OS. If this happens, who will decide what's on that list? And why should a company be forced to include ads for their competitors in their own software? It makes no sense!

MS should sure Opera for leeching on their OS, forcing Opera to make their own platform/OS. ;)
theevilelephant 13th June 2009, 19:15 Quote
I have used opera for years, firefox is fine but for me opera does everything I want and more. But seriously Opera, S-T-F-U and get back to work.
SidRoberts 13th June 2009, 19:20 Quote
As a web developer, I'm glad that Internet Explorer may finally see its end but for regular people, how will they access the Internet? Won't they just download Internet Explorer again?

At the end of the day, it's Microsoft's product and they can do what they want with it. As it is, I'm not forced to use Internet Explorer - I'm free to use Firefox - so I can't see what the big problem is.
lp1988 13th June 2009, 19:40 Quote
I do understand why Microsoft want to give one out without any browser, who besides what browser should be included, I could imagine that it would mean that I get a call every time one in my family get a new PC.

But as laws are equal to everybody (in theory) wouldn't that mean that Apple would have to do the same?
Or will they go be allowed to do whatever they like (again) because they are not in a “dominant” position.

for once i'm siding with MS on this one.
HourBeforeDawn 13th June 2009, 19:49 Quote
you know if it wasnt for M$ people wouldnt have been inspired to make something better like Opera, they should thank M$ for including IE and making people want something else that was better. But seriously some of these companies are starting to become a real joke.
GoodBytes 13th June 2009, 19:50 Quote
Microsoft solution is the best solution.
Opera will never be happy until Microsoft releases their OS with Opera only web browser.
Opera suggested some sort of menu at the end of the setup where the user can install the web browser of their choice. This is not doable.
1- It needs to have ALL the web browsers that exists
2- It can't be web based, as if the user has no internet connectivity because his/her drivers are not in Win7 setup, what does he do?
3- If it find a way, then I'll release a new redistribution of Firefox and call is uARE****HEAD 1.0. What? my marketing research says that such name will make a great name to attract attention and have people downloading my web browser. Who's to decide on my marketing research let alone my software name. No one prevented Nintendo calling their console Wii. So what is the problem? well that is the problem.
4- What if my web browser has major security holes that jeopardize the OS. It's published my Microsoft, they must do something... but they can't and of course won't.
5- If Opera is include with Windows 7, than that makes no sense at all, again who will support it if there is a bug. All the average user are going to call it "Microsoft Windows Opera", rather than just "Opera", and they call up Microsoft instead of Opera for a bug fix. It's going to be a mess.

If Opera has problems, then it's their fault. Make a better product, advertise better for a start. Firefox has no problem, they increase in popularity every month.
DriftCarl 13th June 2009, 21:28 Quote
I really dont get it, all this fuss about something that everyone offers for free. I would understand if firefox, safari, opera was being SOLD for money. but it isnt, everyone is giving the browsers away for free. It seems to me that this is the biggest e-peen war on the internet, a bunch of grown men fighting over whos completly free browser gets used the most.
zoom314 13th June 2009, 21:32 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by tejas
well said mistertad and flibblesan. Opera is the minnow and least popular browser. Wonder when they will complain to the EU about Firefox, Safari and Google Chrome?

Yeah, I guess Opera doesn't know that the Fat Lady has sung and not many like Her that much, they'd rather go with something/someone else. As to removing IE completely well sure that could be done, But unless M$ opens up Windows Update to 3rd Party Browsers and makes 3rd Party Browsers truly independent of IE, It may not work. And that would need to be done across all the OSes(XP Pro, XP x64, Vista and Vista x64, W2K may not be possible as It's not even supported anymore I think, If It were It would be possible, Just more difficult as It's an older OS). Oh and I use Firefox 3 and Yeah I'd love to get rid of IE8 as I find It mostly useless, I only keep It around for Windows Update which is IE only thanks to ActiveX.
sui_winbolo 13th June 2009, 22:12 Quote
This really bothers me. Microsoft should be able to ship their own software with THEIR own operating system.

To me, Opera looks like a bunch of crybabies.
GoodBytes 13th June 2009, 22:13 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by zoom314
But unless M$ opens up Windows Update to 3rd Party Browsers
Why would Microsoft use their own servers for a product that not their own. Supporting and managing server as a scale of what Microsoft OS users is insanely expensive. Even with Vista and Win7 public beta where they probably setup old servers they had a hard time keeping things up and running. Look at this way, let's say your are a software company, and come to you with some judge forcing you to give me full access to your server for FREE for me to publish and deliver my software which is a competing product of yours... See, not fair at all! Why would you pay a server for MY website, which competes with you?

Quote:
Yeah I'd love to get rid of IE8 as I find It mostly useless, I only keep It around for Windows Update which is IE only thanks to ActiveX.
No. Since Vista, Internet Explorer is no longer used as the folder browser system of the OS, nor for the Windows update. Under Windows 7 you can uninstall IE8, but IE ActiveX is still going to be kept so that all software that have internal web browsers can use it (ie: Winamp), and help documentation system that almost every application uses, including the OS itself.
manxminx 13th June 2009, 23:10 Quote
Quote:
Maybe what Microsoft needs to do is to create Windows 7 Everything Uninstalled Edition

Wow, now that really would be heaven. A MS OS without all the crap. You can count me in!
Mister_Tad 14th June 2009, 03:28 Quote
What's crap though? windows explorer? drivers of any form? a window manager? command prompt?
HourBeforeDawn 14th June 2009, 03:32 Quote
ya seriously people are getting really bent out of shape over nothing... I guess the people complaining would prefer a dos prompt command line and nothing else ~_~
general22 14th June 2009, 03:45 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by HourBeforeDawn
ya seriously people are getting really bent out of shape over nothing... I guess the people complaining would prefer a dos prompt command line and nothing else ~_~

If some of these idiots want MS to give them a choice during installation of 3rd party products for their web browser why stop there. Just sell them the kernel and then give them a choice of desktop environment, file explorer. Don't ship any drivers either because that competes with other drivers.

As you can see its ridiculous to expect MS to include links to the products of their competitors just because they are a monopoly. Why isn't the EU chasing down Apple for bundling Safari?
FuzzyOne 14th June 2009, 03:55 Quote
Has the EU put a stop to MS bundling the IE8 standalone install along with win7
HourBeforeDawn 14th June 2009, 04:04 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by general22
If some of these idiots want MS to give them a choice during installation of 3rd party products for their web browser why stop there. Just sell them the kernel and then give them a choice of desktop environment, file explorer. Don't ship any drivers either because that competes with other drivers.

As you can see its ridiculous to expect MS to include links to the products of their competitors just because they are a monopoly. Why isn't the EU chasing down Apple for bundling Safari?

people dont go after Apple for such matters becuase they are nothing in all respects, why waste money on a company that makes up about 6% of the PC Industry, that is why you dont see people going after Apply and its hardcore monopoly ways as they are not even close to being a threat to any industry
ZERO <ibis> 14th June 2009, 05:00 Quote
Maybe just make windows 7 come in a 1000 CD box set where the first cd is DOS and from there you can install the features you want one at a time or the third party equivalent...
kirasaw 14th June 2009, 05:46 Quote
The best solution would be to stop making Windows all together. That would solve the browsers problem plus do away with bot-nets and viruses. The web would be a much safer place if it where not for Windows.
HourBeforeDawn 14th June 2009, 05:51 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by kirasaw
The best solution would be to stop making Windows all together. That would solve the browsers problem plus do away with bot-nets and viruses. The web would be a much safer place if it where not for Windows.

thats a pretty dumbass remark if I ever saw one, if there was no windows well there probably would be no internet as we know it besides virus are out for ANY OS you come across, sure windows has the most because umm duh its the most used, if say Apples OS was the most use then oh guess what it would have a bunch of viruses so ya please educate yourself a bit more before making such a profoundly stupid and ignorant post.

Oh and welcome to the forums.
frojoe 14th June 2009, 06:40 Quote
If I got a copy of windows seven without ie I would be angry. I use firefox, but sometimes you need ie for non-compliant pages, ect. Its ridiculous. On top of all that I don't want more people using alternative browsers, because then they will be bigger targets for exploits. Its similar to how my mac doesn't get viruses right now, because its not a big target, if a bunch of people start using firefox, it will be.
Altron 14th June 2009, 08:30 Quote
It's beyond idiotic.

This is another legal issue that results from having legislation and judicature that is completely clueless about computers making decisions about them.

These issues are difficult to comprehend without a technical background, so it puzzles me that people without technical backgrounds are in charge of these decisions. It would be like asking me to judge a figure-skating competition. Sure, I could do it, but would I know wtf is going on? No!

Yes, IE is not easy to remove. But it's easy as hell to bypass. Downloading and installing Firefox, then making it your default browser is a monumental task requiring a grand total of about half a dozen mouse clicks and 10 minutes of time. The two browsers can happily play nice together, you don't need to remove IE to have access to another browser.

As for having an option in the setup menu, ridiculous! Why would Microsoft bundle another's company software, and foot the distribution and support costs? Frankly, the people who use "alternative browsers" know how to get them. We don't need to be spoon-fed. The people who use IE are going to keep using it. Are you really going to select some questionable third-party program over the one you've used before? That's like if I installed Windows, and it asked me whether I wanted to use the Windows Task Manager program or Malfunctioning Eddie's Process Selector program. Obviously, if I've used one in the past, and have no idea what the other one is, I'll pick the one I trust.

There is another scenario almost identical to this, where there is a huge monopoly - car motors. I just found out that if you buy a Nissan car, it comes with a Nissan motor. You don't have any options! Nissan has a monopoly on motors that fit in Nissan cars. Yeah you can install a Toyota motor in your Nissan car if you want, but that's impossible for the average non-technical Joe to do! You'd need to be a mechanic or something. What a bunch of BS! Nissan is a bunch of jerks. When I buy a Nissan, I should be able to get whatever brand motor I want.
I'm going to go back to driving my tube-frame car that I welded together from spare parts - It's a free download, but if something doesn't work, I need to fabricate a part from scratch.
HourBeforeDawn 14th June 2009, 08:58 Quote
you bring up a good point about the car industry, they stick you with their engine, their audio system, their wheels, their exhaust system, and so on, sure you can get options but they control the options, but once you get your car you can change out the audio system, the engine, and so on Windows in this case is no different so if we go after M$ for such things then well anyone and everything that does anything similar should be on the chopping block and when you look at it that way, you can see how ridiculous all of that is and how who in the right mind would make such decisions and how stupid this whole IE and what will come is. Im not supporting IE in anyway I just disagree with the notion of whats going on.
naokaji 14th June 2009, 09:28 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by HourBeforeDawn
ya seriously people are getting really bent out of shape over nothing... I guess the people complaining would prefer a dos prompt command line and nothing else ~_~

They have that option already, some linux distros are very basic.
hazed100 14th June 2009, 10:32 Quote
Opera directors ought to realise we use the software we prefer or favour over others for lots of reasons but Im not so sure the directors of OPERA should be making our decisions for us!. The sheer buggy and failure prone nature of IE is the ONLY reason I personally looked elsewhere for a better browser and I now use GoogleChrome or Firefox or IE. Opera I heard was good but I had already tried google and i liked it so I havent bothered trying it yet. I doubt now that I will ever try it after reading this nonsense about "microsoft havent done enough just removing it"

sheesh I know microsoft are a bit underhanded as a business corp but it doesnt mean they should remove their software so a competitor can replace it, you have to prove yourself more favourable or preferable by being better or offering something usefull that the others dont.

Google Chrome offers a simple interface thats easy to use, a great search ngine and a handy multiple recently visited web page display as you log on. I like it a lot and it doesnt crash or freeze my PC. Firefox is similarly reliable but I feel offers nothing especially new on IE just less crashes etc. IE is useless as far as im concerned and I do my utmost to avoid using it, however some pages i find only work on IE (maybbe older pages set up before firefox,opera,google etc?) whilst annoying its not the end of the world but this is the only area I would like to see microsoft do their best to avoid happening.They should be allowed to package IE with their own OS system code but when we start windows7 it should simply offer us all the browsers to try or links to them.
When you think about it Microsoft isnt alone in doing this and in most "combined" software (i.e. software with more than one manufacturers program running together) the smaller company usually pays to be included. Googlechrome , firefox and Opera should pay a small fee and be allowed to include their install .exe file in an Extras disc that comes with Win7 OS disc or even on the Win7 disc itself. This way when we install Win7 we can pick which one we like.

If opera wants their software to REPLACE IE on there (this is what they want microsoft to agree to?) then how does this make Opera any better than IE with regards to unfair dominance of the market share. They call microsoft evil for not playing fair but 99% of the people at opera would jump at the chance to be in their position with regards to IE if not with regards to everything. For me I cant trust the Opera representatives, I dont think they are so much indignated as just trying to stir the PR pot and ruin microsofts reputation (have they one? :) ) in the process. They are as dog eat dog as the next guy, stop acting the damsel in distress and step up to the plate with a superior product and BEAT them fair.

Otherwise please shutup ya whines are annoying. Do as google has and take over the universe by offering better stuff :D

worked on me....ALL HAIL LORD GOOGLE, emperor of the virtual universe.

Regards,
Ming the Merciless.
hazed100 14th June 2009, 10:50 Quote
just a quick point...

PC's are for us to use in whatever manner WE choose and some of the populace wont want to use the internet but instead use their PC for work or play offline. With this in mind how can Opera claim Microsoft themselves are holding opera back? surely ONLY those who choose to use the internet are potential customers and they are essentially available to opera by way of advertising or showing them opera is preferable or better. The fact only a few of us even know about opera shows they have poor PR/advertising and have essentially failed to do what companies like Yahoo or Google have done (i.e. successfully make a name for themselves that leads users to look them up and try them out)
If windows was ONLY used as a tool for say all internet traffic and includes advertising links etc then you might be able to understand operas position but as the PC is a tool which we can choose to use for a multitude of tasks, not necessarily internet browsing at all, opera's directors have nothing to stand on. They appear to me to be of almost the exact mindset as microsoft. They want their browser to be the only browser you have the "choice" of using and the reason, my guess is, they cant achieve it in the same way everyone else has to, i.e through talent and spending lots of money :D

Screw em if they cant keep up, natural selection at work.
If they arent up to scratch someone else will step in to take over
(only wished they used the same principle for the UK banks instead of bailing them out with our money!! biggest theft of the 21st century!)
Jipa 14th June 2009, 11:21 Quote
Hey Opera-guys! How about you make your own OS and lets see if you bundle all other browsers with it :)

The whole saga is just getting so ridiculous and sad. I would LOVE to see a nLite-ish menu when installing the OS, where one could drop all the useless junk off, but that has absolutely nothing to do with monopoly browser, or this current debate.
GoodBytes 14th June 2009, 17:21 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jipa

The whole saga is just getting so ridiculous and sad. I would LOVE to see a nLite-ish menu when installing the OS, where one could drop all the useless junk off, but that has absolutely nothing to do with monopoly browser, or this current debate.

Well actually Win7 doesn't come with useless junk anymore. MSN, Movie Maker, Calendar, Windows Mail, etc... are downloaded separately. And based on the RC version of Win7, even XP Mode is downloaded separately. As for the rest such as .NET framework... well so many applications needs it. It if it's not windows that installs it it's doing to be at least one of your applications. Unless you consider Windows Calculator junk or the few KB paint, Wordpad and notepad... But now we are going off topic.
ParaHelix.org 14th June 2009, 17:53 Quote
For gods sake this is really p*****g me off now. Microsoft should be able to do what the hell they like inside their own product, Windows. Opera, if you don't like it, make your own damn OS and see how far you get, stupid, retarded, jelous, idiots.
ParaHelix.org 14th June 2009, 17:55 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by kirasaw
The best solution would be to stop making Windows all together. That would solve the browsers problem plus do away with bot-nets and viruses. The web would be a much safer place if it where not for Windows.

I don't even have a comment for how bloody stupid you are.
ParaHelix.org 14th June 2009, 17:59 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by manxminx
Quote:
Maybe what Microsoft needs to do is to create Windows 7 Everything Uninstalled Edition

Wow, now that really would be heaven. A MS OS without all the crap. You can count me in!

I don't know what kind of Windows you have been using, but when I do a fresh install of any Windows OS I don't see any crap at all. Noob.
Aracos 14th June 2009, 18:03 Quote
Oh come on, yes opera are taking it too far now but look at you! You completely overexaggerate saying it would break windows 7, everybody knows that you should never upgrade a Microsoft operating system as they come with enough junk as it is. A clean install should be done for every Microsoft OS! It's like the law!!! lol
GoodBytes 14th June 2009, 18:14 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by storm20200
Oh come on, yes opera are taking it too far now but look at you! You completely overexaggerate saying it would break windows 7, everybody knows that you should never upgrade a Microsoft operating system as they come with enough junk as it is. A clean install should be done for every Microsoft OS! It's like the law!!! lol

No, the reason for this is that if you have a corrupted registry or HDD you don't really want to have it transferred on your new OS, where it could potentially cause give you a bad user experience with your system.
Zurechial 14th June 2009, 18:45 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by ParaHelix.org
I don't even have a comment for how bloody stupid you are.

The irony of this is astounding given your triple post.
Learn to multi-quote and used the edit button before you comment on anyone else's stupidity.
ParaHelix.org 14th June 2009, 20:59 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by Zurechial
Quote:
Originally Posted by ParaHelix.org
I don't even have a comment for how bloody stupid you are.

The irony of this is astounding given your triple post.
Learn to multi-quote and used the edit button before you comment on anyone else's stupidity.

Is that all you have given the pure stupidity of the person who I commented on? lol.
Tim S 14th June 2009, 20:59 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by Zurechial
The irony of this is astounding given your triple post.
Learn to multi-quote and used the edit button before you comment on anyone else's stupidity.

FWIW, if he's commenting from the site, there's no multi-quote button (the only way to multi-quote is to C&P multiple quotes... :)

And let's have less of the personal attacking please.
The_Beast 14th June 2009, 21:13 Quote
I have a good friend that uses Opera and says it's the best thing since sliced bread, I tell him to "STFU Opera sucks" and that's right to his face


I wish I could say that's to the guy who created Opera
GoodBytes 14th June 2009, 21:26 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by The_Beast
I have a good friend that uses Opera and says it's the best thing since sliced bread, I tell him to "STFU Opera sucks" and that's right to his face


I wish I could say that's to the guy who created Opera

I used Opera... to test my websites on it... nothing more.
I have to admit... it's faster than Firefox. But i hate the layout. I don't mean icons and stuff, I mean where the taps and address bar is located which can't be moved and options location. It feels, to me, very strange. Not very intuitive I would say.

Another problem that killed Opera popular is that in the early days of Opera, you had to pay else you had really annoying ads in the program. I mean the ones that flicker really fast and lots of movement. And the worst was when it loaded a Java made ad... your computer just stall there until Java loads. Very pathetic. Luckily that all change in Opera 6... or was it 7, anyway I forgot. But even today as I use Opera it reminds of the annoyance I had before.

Another problem I have with Opera it's the lack of native plug-in. Sure it has the translator that steal ffirefox plug-in, but you see a performance degradation, and is not very easy to install plug-ins, when the setup doesn't support Opera.
I never understood who Firefox was able to convince everyone to make plug-in for them but Opera after all these years never was able able to.
Anakha 14th June 2009, 23:15 Quote
Yay! Opera Won! No more IE in Win7!

So, if you want Opera on your computer instead, you just open http://www.opera.com in a web... browser...

Talk about shooting yourself in the foot...
knutjb 15th June 2009, 00:33 Quote
Giv'em an inch they take a foot and then demand a yard, Giv'em a cm they take a dm and then demand a meter for those directly affected. The last hit against MS was Firefox, this time it's Opera claiming it's not enough, I bet they want compensation too.

I like Firefox but I may just to go to Chrome since I haven't heard whining from them, yet. If they cry like little children, I will go back to IE, BECAUSE I TRUELY DISLIKE CRYBABY COMPANIES AND WILL GO ELSEWHERE FOR WHATEVER THE PRODUCT. After all it's my money and/or time, not theirs. If Opera and Mozzila think they are so damned special maybe they need to go and create their own OS and stop crying about MS. I feel for you in Europe because the EU will cause you to foot the bill. All of MS legal costs will be passed on to the end user and I hope they don't pass it on to us in their home market for EU's overbearing micromanagement, they don't know when to stop.
GoodBytes 15th June 2009, 00:38 Quote
So far the Mozilla Foundation did not cry like baby, just joined in with Opera as support. Seeing now that Mozilla is quiet about all this, it suggests that they are not too happy about Opera decisions and way of behaving.
kenco_uk 15th June 2009, 01:27 Quote
Do they want MS to front the costs of distributing an Opera CD with Windows7?

I reckon the easiest thing to have done would be to include a list of browsers and after picking one during install, after booting into the OS for the first time, it'd provide a shortcut on the desktop to dl the browser you picked. It'd have meant one extra step during install, but it would at least have got everyone off their backs in one fell swoop.

I don't like how MS have made it non-upgradable though. It's a bit churlish. Fine, new installs are better but a lot would find an upgrade from Vista far easier if they don't fancy reinstalling everything.

I didn't think Windows was regional? I know you can set your language/regional settings, but what's to stop me buying and installing a version from outside the EU?
HourBeforeDawn 15th June 2009, 01:30 Quote
I seriously doubt MS is going to take the programming time to make it so someone else can select which OS they want and have a download link, no I think it will be more of a good luck in getting a browser and then people will just take the IE disc install IE anyways and then go download a browser of their choice unless you have a second computer or access to one that you can download the browser you want onto like a thumb drive and then go install it but hey what do I care I live stateside so I dont have to put up with idiotic ruling ~_~
kenco_uk 15th June 2009, 01:41 Quote
Um, yeah, but there's the whole 'monopoly/anti-competitor' thing. Having an OS that everyone and their dog uses is a fair weight to carry.

Tbh I'd be all for the option of having Chrome and Firefox rather than IE and a step during install that'd make it easier for me grab them is perfect.
cebla 15th June 2009, 02:25 Quote
For the people that are wondering why they are arguing over a free product it is because both Firefox and Opera get money from google for every search someone does using their browser.
Anakha 15th June 2009, 02:43 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by cebla
For the people that are wondering why they are arguing over a free product it is because both Firefox and Opera get money from google for every search someone does using their browser.

[citation needed]
HourBeforeDawn 15th June 2009, 02:45 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by Anakha
[citation needed]

I dont think its per search as that would come out to millions of dollars. I think its more a long the lines of the defualt home page being their search page and getting paid a one time thing for when a user uses it as their starting page/search page
cebla 15th June 2009, 04:17 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by HourBeforeDawn


I dont think its per search as that would come out to millions of dollars. I think its more a long the lines of the defualt home page being their search page and getting paid a one time thing for when a user uses it as their starting page/search page

http://www.zdnet.com.au/news/software/soa/Mozilla-s-Google-deal-extended/0,130061733,339291704,00.htm
http://operawatch.com/news/2006/12/opera-renews-search-deal-with-google.html

The first link is for firefox and the second is for Opera. It seems like HourBeforeDown is right about firefox in that Google seem to be paying them just for being the default home page and search. For Opera though it sounds like they get a cut of the advertising revenue generated through people searching through google using the browser's search box.
Richh999 15th June 2009, 11:23 Quote
I think opera just needs to realise that you have to have IE bundled with Windows. I mean this talk of a list when installing the OS and choosing the OS and downloading it, I want to know how your going to download it when you don't have a browser unless they supply it with a download manager but then you can do them for being a monoply then. Do you think Adobe should complain that it comes with MS paint and not photoshop? :D.

I use Firefox and IE and different sites work better on each.
pizan 15th June 2009, 14:27 Quote
If the EU presses charges then MS should just fire all their employees in the EU, close there building and withdraw all marketing money.
Aracos 15th June 2009, 17:27 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by GoodBytes
Quote:
Originally Posted by storm20200
Oh come on, yes opera are taking it too far now but look at you! You completely overexaggerate saying it would break windows 7, everybody knows that you should never upgrade a Microsoft operating system as they come with enough junk as it is. A clean install should be done for every Microsoft OS! It's like the law!!! lol

No, the reason for this is that if you have a corrupted registry or HDD you don't really want to have it transferred on your new OS, where it could potentially cause give you a bad user experience with your system.

Windows is a corrupted registry ^_^
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