bit-tech.net

Thank you EU Regulators, you have broken Windows 7

Posted on 12th Jun 2009 at 13:49 by Tim Smalley with 102 comments

Tim Smalley
It looks like the European Commission and Opera have got their way and Windows 7 will now ship without a browser installed in Europe.

It's fair to say that Windows 7 is now broken - Microsoft has said that its decision to ship Windows 7 without a browser installed means that it's no longer possible to upgrade from a previous version of Windows while keeping all of your settings, including your browser of choice. Instead, the European version (even the upgrade version) will require a clean install.

It's like a bad joke. It just isn't funny and is actually offensive. That the Commission think this is a good idea shows how far out of touch it is with reality in this instance.

Microsoft will still bundle Internet Explorer with Windows 7 - it just won't install it for you. Instead, it'll be on a separate disc, meaning that consumers who buy the OS at retail have to jump through an additional hoop to get onto the Internet to download their browser of choice.

Retail sales don't make up the majority of Microsoft's sales though - the lions' share of Windows licenses are shipped with new PCs and in that instance it's going to be down to the PC manufacturer to decide which browser (or browsers) to bundle with their machines. I would be surprised if many of the big OEMs move away from Internet Explorer - so what have the EU (and Opera) achieved?

In effect, all that they have achieved is to break Windows 7. The upgrade process can now no longer be described as that and anyone who would naturally install a different browser anyway now has to jump through completely unnecessary hoops.

Of course, Microsoft could include every browser under the sun in Windows 7 by default, but that means unnecessary clutter. Even Firefox execs admit that there's no good way to do that. Microsoft could introduce a polling screen that allows the user to choose their browser during the first Windows boot, but even that is unlikely to make Opera happy because it would only be saved from being bottom of an alphabetical list by the presence of Safari.

So, EU Regulators and Opera, are you happy now that your work is done?

102 Comments

Discuss in the forums Reply
MiNiMaL_FuSS 12th June 2009, 13:27 Quote
good.
Big Elf 12th June 2009, 13:32 Quote
Good to see the EU concentrating on the important things, sorting out their own corruption might be a better use of their time.
Psytek 12th June 2009, 13:36 Quote
Both sides appear to have become petty IMO. It's like a playground squabble between two little girls.
Bursar 12th June 2009, 13:36 Quote
How do you download your preferred choice of browser, without a browser? Command line FTP might be OK for the techies amongst us, but I can't see how my Mum is supposed to cope.
samkiller42 12th June 2009, 13:42 Quote
3 threads for 1 topic, awesome
logan'srun 12th June 2009, 13:47 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by Big Elf
Good to see the EU concentrating on the important things, sorting out their own corruption might be a better use of their time.

Well, I see it as better time spent than maybe developing weapons of mass destruction wouldn't you agree? But if you'd rather we focus on other issues than corporate monopolies , I'm sure we can discuss it over a Big Mac and A Coke while we smoke a Marlboro in our Designer Levi's with our Nikes on, huh?
Xlog 12th June 2009, 13:47 Quote
I am not surprised, you can't include every browser, and the authors of those not included will start bitching about it sooner or later, so the easiest way is to include none.
Anyway, if this "trend" continues, soon Microsoft will have no other choice but to ship only the kernel.
p.s. Does Apple ship Macs with any other browser than Safari?
tejas 12th June 2009, 13:50 Quote
boo and hiss. I only use firefox but like having IE8 as a backup. As Bursar says above for people like our gfs, mums and sisters this will be utter crap. If MS have to remove IE then Apple should remove safari from OSX.
pizan 12th June 2009, 13:55 Quote
hahaha Am I the only one who thought this was great? Also speaking of monopolistic abuses isnt iPod and iTunes combo one too?

Edit: Thats right iTunes doesn't work well in the EU so nvm.
Nedsbeds 12th June 2009, 13:57 Quote
haha Brilliant!
I hope it really pisses off the EU commision too :)
What a load of bloody rubbish the whole IE antitrust issue is. It is patently obvious that Microsoft should be allowed to include whatever software they like with windows. Every other OS developer does! If people really have an issue with being given free software then there is something wrong with them.
FatMikel 12th June 2009, 14:07 Quote
Yay!

Well done EU! You've managed to reduce consumer choice! Brilliant!

I'm glad my taxes are being put to such good use. The people persuing these anti-trust cases need to be set on fire and left to burn, as far as I'm conerned. They do nothing good or worthwhile in this world. They are without worth as human beings.
pendragon 12th June 2009, 14:09 Quote
the more I hear about this the more lame it sounds.. don't like IE? Just download another browser ..sheesh .. I don't get how that's an antitrust issue .. if Microsoft, on the other hand, was making their OS intentionally break any other browser that tried to run on it, then maybe that would be different
wuyanxu 12th June 2009, 14:10 Quote
i don't get the point of removing it. it just makes the OS less attractive to non-techheads.

what about Apple's host of programes that comes with OSX? what about Xcode vs Visual studio?
xaser04 12th June 2009, 14:17 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by pendragon
the more I hear about this the more lame it sounds.. don't like IE? Just download another browser ..sheesh .. I don't get how that's an antitrust issue .. if Microsoft, on the other hand, was making their OS intentionally break any other browser that tried to run on it, then maybe that would be different

I agree here. I could see a case if Microsoft were intentionally preventing you from installing another browser and/or breaking an additional browswer but as I far as I could tell they arn't. This ruling can only be bad for consumers (mainly because both Microsoft and the commission are acting like Ronaldo after his hair has been messed up.... but I digress).
NethLyn 12th June 2009, 14:28 Quote
Jeez who cares, MS will just leave a download "stub" on the desktop to go and get IE just like they did with the Live Apps in Vista, the EU really is wasting time now. I only ever use IE for when people link me to Youtube Vids, online banking I use Opera and FF for everything else. Now with Safari and Chrome there's even more choice out there and more people know about it than the commission thinks.
Zut 12th June 2009, 14:34 Quote
On one hand, its nice to see a monopoly being challenged and sets a good precedent. Hopefully they'll go after Apple next and their various sins.

On the other hand, its only a freaking browser and no-one forces you to use it. For most people this is just a hassle (will it change IE's market share very much??) and it could make life difficult for developers who can no longer rely 100% on Windows as a web-capable platform.
Tyrmot 12th June 2009, 14:34 Quote
Not being able to upgrade straight from Vista is a pain in the a*** though.
steveo_mcg 12th June 2009, 14:34 Quote
I'm kinda glad the EU ruling has been complied with its just typical of MS to do it in such an awkward way.

Though i don't see how the removal of IE can be conisderd breaking the up grade path, it does however help with the security by not having a web facing browser directly tied into the OS.
chicorasia 12th June 2009, 14:37 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by Xlog
I
p.s. Does Apple ship Macs with any other browser than Safari?

They used to come with internet explorer. However, one can argue that with some 10% of the PC industry Apple does not hold a monopoly of the platform.
Tim S 12th June 2009, 14:49 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by chicorasia
Quote:
Originally Posted by Xlog
I
p.s. Does Apple ship Macs with any other browser than Safari?

They used to come with internet explorer. However, one can argue that with some 10% of the PC industry Apple does not hold a monopoly of the platform.

But, looking at things the other way, you could equally argue that Apple holds a browser monopoly on OS X...
Stelph 12th June 2009, 14:52 Quote
Forgive me if im being thick, but how would you install any other browser if you dont already have Internet Exploer installed?

Usually when I do a fresh install when it is done, I use Internet Explorer to go and to the Mozilla website to download and install Firefox, but if there isnt a browser installed how do I get the latest release of firefox from the web?? Some kind of Application Store or something?

Silly EU....
steveo_mcg 12th June 2009, 15:00 Quote
Its hardly insurmountable linux (in some cases) ships with out a browser and you use a gui tool to install what you want.
faugusztin 12th June 2009, 15:03 Quote
How to install IE8 in Windows 7 - you will see IE8 probably as optional package in Windows update. Or you will just use your USB stick/computer magazine with DVD and install it.
Tim S 12th June 2009, 15:05 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by steveo_mcg
Its hardly insurmountable linux (in some cases) ships with out a browser and you use a gui tool to install what you want.

Linux has the option to use wget to grab files via HTTP/HTTPS/FTP/etc
Tim S 12th June 2009, 15:08 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by faugusztin
How to install IE8 in Windows 7 - you will see IE8 probably as optional package in Windows update. Or you will just use your USB stick/computer magazine with DVD and install it.

It will come on a separate CD in the Windows 7 box. Stupid, ridiculous, pointless, etc.
steveo_mcg 12th June 2009, 15:08 Quote
Yeah and it also uses Synaptic to provide a front end for apt which would be a very easy way to allow the user choose there browser.
Narishma 12th June 2009, 15:21 Quote
I don't see what's the problem. Moms and girl-friends don't install Windows, they just buy new computers and PC manufacturers will install whatever browser they want, most likely IE. The only people who buy Windows at retail are geeks that won't have a problem installing IE or Firefox from the extra CD or from a USB drive or what have you.
dicobalt 12th June 2009, 15:51 Quote
c:\users\SoWhat\Desktop\ ftp releases.mozilla.org
user:anonymous
pass:anythinguwant
cd "/pub/mozilla.org/firefox/releases/3.0.11/win32/en-US"
binary
get "Firefox Setup 3.0.11.exe"


There you have it, how to get another browser without a browser.
matee 12th June 2009, 15:55 Quote
[QUOTE=Tim S]
Quote:
Originally Posted by chicorasia

But, looking at things the other way, you could equally argue that Apple holds a browser monopoly on OS X...

Haha so true..
proxymoron 12th June 2009, 16:14 Quote
Well, at least we could never accuse Mr Smalley of sitting on the fence.

Can somebody who knows more about these things than I do explain why having a particular web browser on your OS allows you to migrate documents and settings, but not having it does not - because frankly I cannot see the connection between the two.
Jipa 12th June 2009, 16:15 Quote
Ahah way to go. The EU's original idea is just retarded, so it's only fair for MS to give them something to think about. Just so ridiculous... Just WHY ON EARTH should they provide you with all browsers? Why don't they also have to provide you with all office programs (there's note included, right), a couple of calculators...
RichCreedy 12th June 2009, 16:15 Quote
why should microsoft supply 3rd party software with their os?

at the end of the day, they are going to let oems decide wether or not to install a browser, including ie.

i for one think the anti trust rulings ae nothing but a pain in the arse for consumers, if the 3rd party browser makers, or any other sofware for that matter, want beter market share, they should provide a USP (something all businesses need in order to survive)(unique selling point for tose that don't know)

users will find software they like/want to use, or has the features the user requires.
Nicb 12th June 2009, 16:17 Quote
The real victory would be if you could also choose other programs than Explorer and WinMedia. But I don't want more people on my side of the fence because it would encourage new virus creations,..... and then whats the point.

Also I don't know about you all but old Government websites and the likes only code to IE and everyone has to visit one sometime. If you have Firefox you have to addon a IE tab plugin to view such sites. For people that want IE taken out probably have difficult times just knowing how to install the browser much less customize it for such compatibility problems.

I guess this will increase income for self employed PC repair guys, and the the Best Buy Geek Squad. 10% increase in revenue with problems like "I can't view some sites.... Can you fix my PC?,...... I think it has a virus."
l3v1ck 12th June 2009, 16:18 Quote
Providing the rest of the installation is the same, I'd prefer this E version as I don't use IE anyway.
bogie170 12th June 2009, 16:19 Quote
But will windows update work with firefox, chrome or safari because it does not at the moment. You have to have ie.
amacieli 12th June 2009, 16:33 Quote
They should stick to bananas.
Furymouse 12th June 2009, 16:43 Quote
Although petty and childish, it is fun to see MS make the commission eat their words :D
Why on earth though would they be expected to bundle a competitors software with their product? Wouldn't bundling all the other browser options cost a massive amount of money in licensing fees?
Blademrk 12th June 2009, 17:02 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nicb
Also I don't know about you all but old Government websites and the likes only code to IE and everyone has to visit one sometime.

I was just thinking this actually, kind of ironic that the EU does not want IE to be included with windows when a fair few goverment websites can only be viewed through IE (ignoring IETAB and similar for the moment, as they shouldn't be needed if the websites were coded to standards and I doubt most [non-techie] people would know what IETAB is)...
steveo_mcg 12th June 2009, 17:07 Quote
IEtab wouldn't even work in W7EU unless you downloaded IE.
CopperCAT 12th June 2009, 17:20 Quote
All those anti-EU reactions, that's exactly what MS is aiming for. Instead of constructively adding choice, they go for the "crippling" route and a bunch of EU FUD...
rembo666 12th June 2009, 17:40 Quote
CopperCAT, why would you expect a company to include COMPETITOR products in THEIR product distribution. EU commission was asking for something that no sane business person would agree to. They are actively trying to cripple a product that for better or worse the vast majority of computer users and 99% of businesses completely rely on. This is not helping competition, this is hurting consumers. Windows 7 already has a choice to completely exclude IE, so that OEM's can do whatever they want. A retail box is a retail box--why not say that IE is an "Extra Feature" for the retail box alone. Furthermore, they are not making Apple ship OSX with no Safari, iLife, iTunes, etc...
rembo666 12th June 2009, 17:43 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by dicobalt
c:\users\SoWhat\Desktop\ ftp releases.mozilla.org
user:anonymous
pass:anythinguwant
cd "/pub/mozilla.org/firefox/releases/3.0.11/win32/en-US"
binary
get "Firefox Setup 3.0.11.exe"


There you have it, how to get another browser without a browser.

Ahh, so they illegally bundle and FTP utility with their operating system? Looks like anti-competitive behavior to me! :)
Tim S 12th June 2009, 17:44 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by rembo666
Quote:
Originally Posted by dicobalt
c:\users\SoWhat\Desktop\ ftp releases.mozilla.org
user:anonymous
pass:anythinguwant
cd "/pub/mozilla.org/firefox/releases/3.0.11/win32/en-US"
binary
get "Firefox Setup 3.0.11.exe"


There you have it, how to get another browser without a browser.

Ahh, so they illegally bundle and FTP utility with their operating system? Looks like anti-competitive behavior to me! :)

Now that's getting petty... oh, wait a minute. ;)
NuTech 12th June 2009, 18:24 Quote
If somebody was to purchase a valid Win7E licence, then download and install a standard Win7 ISO (US version or whatever), does anyone know if you could then update Windows instead of a fresh install?

Effectively, will a EU CD-key work on a US version of windows?
Psy-UK 12th June 2009, 18:35 Quote
This is silly. It's THEIR operating system so let them put their own software on it. Most people are tech-savvy enough to know how to install an alternative browser anyway.
HourBeforeDawn 12th June 2009, 19:01 Quote
lol I dont see what the big deal was anyways... sure the younger generation is smart enough to know they have to go install a browser or heck not use IE and use a different browser but what about the older generation, I can see it now, huge increase in calls and tech visits of old people saying I cant get on the internet, where is my internet browser, why doesnt this work, what I have to some how get online to download a browser but how can I do that when I dont have a way to get online already and so on and so on lol.... personally I think it was a waste of time and money forcing M$ to not include IE, I mean really who cares, you dont want to use IE fine, then go install some other browser like you normally would anyways. ~_~
l3v1ck 12th June 2009, 19:14 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by bogie170
But will windows update work with firefox, chrome or safari because it does not at the moment. You have to have ie.
It would have to. The EU would come down on them like a tonne of bricks if you have to buy an IE version to get security patches.
Aracos 12th June 2009, 19:16 Quote
Nice! Now if I move to Windows 7 I won't even have Internet Explorer installed, I couldn't think of a better thing to do :D
Hackjedi 12th June 2009, 19:28 Quote
So how do I download Firefox then?
AstralWanderer 12th June 2009, 19:41 Quote
What many people seem to be forgetting (including Tim S) is the lengths to which Microsoft went to push Netscape Navigator into oblivion including:
  • embedding Internet Explorer into Windows to the extent that it could not be removed without third party tools. Combined with IE's sloppy security, this gave rise to the spyware/malware epidemic that Windows users have had to tolerate ever since.
  • "investing" $150 million in Apple in 1997 provided it made IE the default browser on new Macs.
  • threatening OEMs who shipped Netscape on their PCs with withdrawal of their Windows licence (see Netscape: A History for more on this).
  • providing incentives to ISPs to ship IE instead of Netscape (most notably AOL, who received an icon on the Windows 95 desktop in exchange).
Microsoft did not have to do what it has done because of the EU ruling - it has instead tried to provide as awkward an option as possible for users in an attempt to sidestep the EU's objections and to avoid providing any leeway to companies or groups it regards as competitors. Anyone seeking to blame the EU for this is simply falling for MS' PR.

The EUs Statement of Objection raises similar points that the US District Court of Columbia did in its Findings of Fact: Microsoft's Response to the Browser Threat. Microsoft's behaviour, past and present, should be clearly unethical even to those totally new to the computer and software industry and if anything, regulators on both sides of the Atlantic have been too slow in responding effectively.

Those who try to compare Linux distributions (which do include far more applications) to Windows are also missing the point. It is possible to remove any application you don't like and install something else, and no distribution has a monopoly in the Linux world. On Windows, Microsoft is the only (legal) game in town and they have made it is difficult as possible to remove their applications (Outlook Express, MSN Messenger, etc). IE itself cannot be removed without separate software (e.g. IEradicator or XPLite).

As for "how do you download a browser" - well aside from the options above, you can just install one from CD. Microsoft have stated their intention to provide one for IE and it wasn't all that long ago that ISP's posted CDs containing all the software you needed to connect (which included all the correct phone settings for dialup access).
StephenK 12th June 2009, 19:41 Quote
Separate issue i know but "people like our gfs, mums and sisters" ?
What's up with this? Oh our silly womenfolk wont be able to cope? I think bursar is right but it's gonna be awkward for everyone, men and women.

We're gonna se I.E discs in the box but not installed and we might even start seeing 5 Euro copies of firefox on the shelves if the public consciousness gets the idea that you need a separate browser.
DarkLord7854 12th June 2009, 19:45 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by pendragon
the more I hear about this the more lame it sounds.. don't like IE? Just download another browser ..sheesh .. I don't get how that's an antitrust issue .. if Microsoft, on the other hand, was making their OS intentionally break any other browser that tried to run on it, then maybe that would be different

Indeed, especially considering browsers are free.. how is it really uncompetitive if the products are all free...? If it was price jacking and stuff, then OK, I can understand, but the damn things are free, easy to download, and it's not like Windows goes "OMG DON'T INSTALL FIREFOX!"
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tim S
But, looking at things the other way, you could equally argue that Apple holds a browser monopoly on OS X...

Apple does hold a large monopoly over OSX, they bundle all their crap with it, including iLife when you buy a new Mac, not counting Quicktime Pro, Safari, XCode, etc etc etc.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nicb
The real victory would be if you could also choose other programs than Explorer and WinMedia. But I don't want more people on my side of the fence because it would encourage new virus creations,..... and then whats the point.

Why? So you want Windows, without Windows components..? Just go on a Linux distro then

Quote:
Originally Posted by bogie170
But will windows update work with firefox, chrome or safari because it does not at the moment. You have to have ie.

Windows Vista/7 have their own Update utility.





I like MS's decision, maybe it'll make the EU realize how retarded they're being, or maybe MS should have just revised it's launch plans and decided Win7 wasn't coming to the European market and see how the EU like that.


What's the point of an OS if all you get is an empty shell with a simple file browser? Doesn't that effectively totally defeat the point of an OS? You buy an OS, you're sposed to be able to do simple/moderate productivity work right out of the box..

Meh.. F the European Union gov :(
Rocket_Knight64 12th June 2009, 20:08 Quote
Why does IE8 need to be removed all together?

Why not just offer a pick list on installation with the other browsers to be installed in addition to IE8 with a very clear warning that they are not MS supported?

This is either MS being bloody-minded or trying to play it ultra safe and goofing up big time.
HourBeforeDawn 12th June 2009, 20:14 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rocket_Knight64
Why does IE8 need to be removed all together?

Why not just offer a pick list on installation with the other browsers to be installed in addition to IE8 with a very clear warning that they are not MS supported?

This is either MS being bloody-minded or trying to play it ultra safe and goofing up big time.

you do know there is literally hundreds of browsers out there, sure there a few top ones but still to be fair they would ALL need to be listed lol, I guess if it was some kind of RSS list and then you select which one and it goes online and downloads it but people would need to be able to have access first.
Rocket_Knight64 12th June 2009, 20:37 Quote
True, but at least this way IE8 is still there for those that dont care (ie, most) and the upgrade path is still intact.

I'd immagine though that only the main players are being given any consideration here.

They could even have a 'remove IE8 after 3rd party install' checkbox to further appease the EU.
FelixTech 12th June 2009, 20:41 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by pizan
hahaha Am I the only one who thought this was great? Also speaking of monopolistic abuses isnt iPod and iTunes combo one too?

Edit: Thats right iTunes doesn't work well in the EU so nvm.

Ha speaking of choice, I'm not sure if it's still the case but for a very long time the iTunes installer (for windows) has ignored whether or not you check "install quicktime" and installed it anyway!
steveo_mcg 12th June 2009, 20:44 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by DarkLord7854

I like MS's decision, maybe it'll make the EU realize how retarded they're being, or maybe MS should have just revised it's launch plans and decided Win7 wasn't coming to the European market and see how the EU like that.


What's the point of an OS if all you get is an empty shell with a simple file browser? Doesn't that effectively totally defeat the point of an OS? You buy an OS, you're sposed to be able to do simple/moderate productivity work right out of the box..

Meh.. F the European Union gov :(

Just see what would happen to there share price if they failed to launch in the only other market which BUYs its software. The EU is at least as big as the US so any large company wanting to make any money has to play ball. Tough at the top.

Most versions of windows provide virtually no functionality out the box you need to add software to make it do any thing.
Mister_Tad 12th June 2009, 20:52 Quote
This is just stupid.

I just hope it doesn't lead on from here. What constitutes a core part of an OS and what's a seperate program? Strip out Windows firewall next? How about notepad/wordpad, image viewer, CD/DVD burning or, God forbid, solitaire?

bah
DarkLord7854 12th June 2009, 20:57 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by steveo_mcg
Just see what would happen to there share price if they failed to launch in the only other market which BUYs its software. The EU is at least as big as the US so any large company wanting to make any money has to play ball. Tough at the top.

Most versions of windows provide virtually no functionality out the box you need to add software to make it do any thing.

Not true, you have Windows Media Player, Wordpad, Movie Maker, Sound recorder, etc etc. It's enough to do basic tasks.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mister_Tad
This is just stupid.

I just hope it doesn't lead on from here. What constitutes a core part of an OS and what's a seperate program? Strip out Windows firewall next? How about notepad/wordpad, paint, image viewer, CD/DVD burning?

bah


I think Windows Explorer needs to go.. :p
Mister_Tad 12th June 2009, 21:03 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by DarkLord7854
I think Windows Explorer needs to go.. :p

Well, there are plenty of file browsers out there that are far better than windows explorer. They aren't being used by most simply because windows includes one that most people are happy enough with. A bit like IE then.

I'd probably use something other than windows explorer if I could map it to win+e, monopoly on both file browsers AND windows key shortcuts!
DarkLord7854 12th June 2009, 21:06 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mister_Tad
Well, there are plenty of file browsers out there that are far better than windows explorer. They aren't being used by most simply because windows includes one that most people are happy enough with. A bit like IE then.

But at that point, if you keep replacing everything that is given by MS as part of Windows.. then what's the point of getting Windows..?

At the same time, it shows that MS really don't box you into using just their stuff, try removing Finder from OSX.. You more or less have the freedom to do w/e the hell you want with Windows, you just have to do it yourself, MS just packages what they made for Windows.

It's like buying a car, you pick the model, the year, the trim, the options, and if you want later you ca buy aftermarket parts, replace the engine, etc etc.
steveo_mcg 12th June 2009, 21:12 Quote
You could take that to the n'th degree by forcing MS to two parts one sells the kenel and then a second wing of MS sells the rest of the fluff and is forced to compete on the open market with out the advantages being bundled comes with.
Mister_Tad 12th June 2009, 21:18 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by steveo_mcg
You could take that to the n'th degree by forcing MS to two parts one sells the kenel and then a second wing of MS sells the rest of the fluff and is forced to compete on the open market with out the advantages being bundled comes with.

This is why its ridiculous.

I'd like to see as many features as possible included in the OS, I'm completely happy with just having the ability to remove them.

If MS included eg an image editor with windows that meant I didn't have to install something else, good for them.

I'm just bewildered how anyone can believe that MS shouldn't have the right to include whatever the hell it likes with its own OS. If you have the choice to uninstall it and use an alternative, what's the problem?

one more time: bah!
steveo_mcg 12th June 2009, 21:34 Quote
I'd prefer to know exactly whats installed on my machine and where the potential security holes are, though the ability to completely remove the installed fluff would be a reasonable compromise since many people prefer to have as much installed as possible.
knutjb 12th June 2009, 21:50 Quote
What good is the EU ruling going to do? They are way over stepping their bounds. If MS made it painful to manufacturers to ship with other browsers that is a valid problem, so fix that and just that. To force MS to ship their intellectual property with other browsers is beyond where any overtly socialist government should go, it would be like the US government controlling GM and forcing them to make cars no one wants. Oh wait, Big Brother for all, we don't have a need or right to determine how we live our lives the government can do all that for us!
perplekks45 12th June 2009, 22:44 Quote
The reason why Windows was succesful was that it was easy to use and had almost everything you'd need for a start.
Now they start stripping it down.
Nice for us who know what to do. Really bad for people like my mom who doesn't have a clue about computers in general, don't even think about installing things.

Hands up for the EU and their short-sighted-ness! ... :|
tank_rider 12th June 2009, 22:55 Quote
My one ask would be that all the EU people working on the case are presented with a pc with a fresh install of win 7 sans browser, then asked to surf the net to check the news without using a second pc. I can see that changing their mind pretty quickly!

Like others have said, where is apples slice having to ship without safari in OSX?
Rocket_Knight64 12th June 2009, 23:21 Quote
Hmm... seems some people have jumped the gun here.

As far as I can tell the EU have not told MS to do anything yet (infact they are still asking around the other developers what they would like done).

This is a leaked memo about what they WANT to do (as dasterdly as it is). When it aint checking the bend of your bannana, the EU aint all retarded you know. :P
DarkLord7854 12th June 2009, 23:26 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rocket_Knight64
This is a leaked memo about what they WANT to do (as dasterdly as it is). When it aint checking the bend of your bannana, the EU aint all retarded you know. :P

Mmm... They already did it for WMP so yea..
Spaceraver 13th June 2009, 01:05 Quote
Well.
My 0.2 pesos.

How about letting Microsoft bundle all the crap they want to, but give joe user the ability to remove what ever he wants. Synaptic does it sweetly, add and remove programs and core options. All though it would be a good idea to hide core opttions behind an "advanced" tickbox and a disclaimer that says "Fiddle with this, you can fubar the system, Microsoft takes no responsibility if you break the OS by removing core facilities". It's not like there is a non viable option for everything Microsoft has to offer.
Hell. I'd give an arm and a leg for the easy customization that Linux distro's have. What I want from Windows is a stable core to build on. Let me decide
whether or not I need Media Player, IE8, notepad, Windows Explorer and so forth. If I need the machine for gaming there is no way I want all the bloat on it anyways. Similar for HTPC's.
n3mo 13th June 2009, 01:36 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by pendragon
the more I hear about this the more lame it sounds.. don't like IE? Just download another browser ..sheesh .. I don't get how that's an antitrust issue .. if Microsoft, on the other hand, was making their OS intentionally break any other browser that tried to run on it, then maybe that would be different

Not that I really care about the issue (not being a Windows user and all), but just the existence of IE executable puts you at risk, as, for example, 99% of Firefox exploits work by calling iexplore.exe, most backdoors and trojans use IE .dll files and various IE routines built into the system. IE modules are the cause of 90% of all Windows security holes, mostly because it grew too deep into the system (more than half of explorer libraries are shared with IE).
I think that stripping things off the Windows is actually good for it. I mean, who with the right mind uses IE, WMP or trusts the built-in "firewall"? Removing the unnecessary bloat is only good, especially given the fact that Windows tends to slow down with every installed app (thanks to the centralized configuration database) and the WMP alone has thousands of registry keys and hundreds of files while being completely useless.
The main power of Windows is the huge amount of third party software, so limiting yourself to just what comes built-in defeats the whole idea.
perplekks45 13th June 2009, 01:43 Quote
YOU know all that stuff... does your mom know too?

What if someone without any knowledge buys a PC, turns it on and he can't go online because there just is no browser?
Or he can't watch a video of his son's birth because there is no media player?

The average user just needs it to work straight out the box. That's why Apple sells so much to brainless brand zombies: They just turn it on and everything works. Until you look behind the glossy cover that is. Don't get me wrong, OSX is a great OS but it's far from being perfect.
n3mo 13th June 2009, 03:30 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by perplekks45
YOU know all that stuff... does your mom know too?

What if someone without any knowledge buys a PC, turns it on and he can't go online because there just is no browser?
Or he can't watch a video of his son's birth because there is no media player?

Do you attempt to drive a car without knowing what's that big wheel in front of your seat for? Brainless zombies have their Apple that works like a taxi - you just get inside and it does the rest for you. If you want to drive by yourself you have to do some learning.

And besides, my mother uses Debian (her own choice) and is fluent with apt-get and all the basics. It's just a matter of will to learn something instead of being a brainless ignorant.
perplekks45 13th June 2009, 03:34 Quote
True. That's exactly what I said.

The average user DOESN'T care to learn.

Oh, and congratulations on having a mother that knows her Debian. ;)
HourBeforeDawn 13th June 2009, 05:49 Quote
you know its funny the younger folks say hey old people just learn and dont be dumb and yet when the younger folk get old they will be in the same boat with the new generation of young folks saying the same thing to them lol
Fod 13th June 2009, 08:10 Quote
oh ffs. this is genuinely retarded. under the same reasoning we should be going after apple and every linux distro maker for bundling any piece of software into their OS. of course, they can't supply users with a command line terminal like bash, or a way to download software applications such as curl! that would be anticompetitive!

in fact in insist that all operating systems henceforth be supplied in a kernel-only installation disc.

the EU has got this oh so very completely and utterly wrong.
tejas 13th June 2009, 09:42 Quote
The EU should punish corrupt British politicians instead on continually picking on Microsoft. This insanity has to stop. Microsoft have paid their dues. Intel are the company that are abusing their position in spite of the EU fine. Punish them

They should continue going after Intel and preventing Larrabee from launching as that would give Intel even more of a gpu monopoly.
AstralWanderer 13th June 2009, 09:58 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by perplekks45
The reason why Windows was succesful was that it was easy to use and had almost everything you'd need for a start.
Eh no. The reason Windows was successful was that it was the only WIMP environment available for IBM PC compatibles (Digital Research's GEM having been crippled by an Apple look'n'feel lawsuit). By the time competition had arrived (in the form of OS/2, BeOS and NextStep) Windows (then at around version 3.11) had a huge application base and was almost universally included with every new PC.
Quote:
Originally Posted by tank_rider
My one ask would be that all the EU people working on the case are presented with a pc with a fresh install of win 7 sans browser, then asked to surf the net to check the news without using a second pc. I can see that changing their mind pretty quickly!
Three points:
  • As mentioned above, the EU are not requiring the removal of IE. Microsoft is taking this action unilaterally - and showing that previous court testimony about IE being an essential part of Windows was complete fabrication.
  • Even without an installed browser, there are several ways to install one which have been listed above. Windows 3.x and 95 users had little difficulty in getting online - though with dialup access speeds they needed some patience.
  • IE's universal distribution has caused computer users clear harm both in the security problems it created (whether used or not) and in limiting website design to "what IE would accept" (slowing down the takeup of bandwidth-saving features like CSS for example). In the absence of equal competition, this clearly puts the issue within the EU's jurisdiction.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fod
oh ffs. this is genuinely retarded. under the same reasoning we should be going after apple and every linux distro maker for bundling any piece of software into their OS.
If Apple's OSX (or the Linux distro of your choice) was bundled with every new PC sold, regardless of whether you wanted it or not, then you would have a point. However, as they are not...

Some further analysis of this courtesy of the Register:

Behind Microsoft's IE-free, Windows-for-Europe ploy
thEcat 13th June 2009, 11:58 Quote
This blog entry has no place on Bit-Tech.

It is an example of the kind of empty, sensationalist journalism I'd expect to find on far lesser sites. Had the entry contained a single fact out with the content of a no doubt deliberately leaked memo I would give it some credibility, had the entry contained a single historical note it would at least serve to place Microsoft's behaviour in context.

As it stands this entry risks portraying Tim Smalley as a gullible fool and calls into question the journalistic integrity of the site as a whole.
Woodspoon 13th June 2009, 14:39 Quote
This is "pants on head retarded", you wouldnt by a ford and expect ford to include Bmw, Mercedes, Vauxhall, GM etc. car radios as well would you?
It's just bloody silly, I can totally understand why Microsoft are considering this option even if it makes life difficult for the consumer.
steveo_mcg 13th June 2009, 17:30 Quote
The thing people are missing with the car analogies is quite simple show me a car maker with 95+% of the car market and i'll show you one that has the ability to control the market. Then you can bitch about it only installing one brand of cd player by default.

Of course this "CD player" would have to be so completely integrated that it also runs the steering and brake peddle and is so flaky that the remote control for the cd player can open the car doors, start it and oh is completely the same over every car made by this company.

Honestly does no one remember how IE got to where it is? By using Windows monopoly to crush Netscape...
HourBeforeDawn 13th June 2009, 18:33 Quote
first of all netscape SUCKED so either way it was on its way out.
DarkLord7854 13th June 2009, 18:34 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by HourBeforeDawn
first of all netscape SUCKED so either way it was on its way out.

Was just about to say that :)
steveo_mcg 13th June 2009, 18:55 Quote
Tue and the stifled competition left us with IE6 think about it.
HourBeforeDawn 13th June 2009, 18:59 Quote
Personally I didnt have a problem with IE6, probably because I was a freshmen in High School and had better things to do then complain about something that got me onto the internet, actually I didnt start using Fire Fox until I was 20 so like 4 years ago becuase well until then it didnt matter to me what I used to get to websites and could care less as it got me where I wanted to go but ehh I still think this ruling is a bunch of bull, just make it so that you can uninstall any of the features you dont want wrather then not include them at all. I dont want to pay for a stripped down OS.
ZERO <ibis> 13th June 2009, 23:07 Quote
I think that the system clock calender and calculator should be on separate disks because they unfairly compete with watches, calculators and calenders.
HourBeforeDawn 13th June 2009, 23:13 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by ZERO <ibis>
I think that the system clock calender and calculator should be on separate disks because they unfairly compete with watches, calculators and calenders.

dont forget about notepad, thats so unfair for the paper and pen/pencil industry
DarkLord7854 13th June 2009, 23:31 Quote
I think we should just get a DVD-RW that displays the Windows logo behind a window on your screen when you buy Windows, nothing more.
perplekks45 14th June 2009, 00:59 Quote
Or we could just try a new approach:

For people who just want an OS that has a bit of everything and that don't care about all the let-downs, security holes and problems we have one OS for PCs and one for Macs that get shipped with almost every system.
We could call them "PC OS with windows" and "MacOS" to make it obvious for the fanboys.
Then we could just charge whatever we want because of the fact that these would be de-facto standards for their respective systems.

For people who want to know exactly what is going on on their PC we have a fully customizable OS that comes in every flavour you could ask and even gets distributions for different architectures.
These would be mainly free and would use lots of open source software.
Names for these would be of a large variety just like the OS' itself.

Any of the OS' mentioned above would get mobile versions and server versions and what not so we satisfy every single part of the market.

Doesn't that sound great?

Hmmm... wait a second...

:(
Red 5 14th June 2009, 01:16 Quote
Oh for crying out loud. Microsoft have only made this announcement as a publicity stunt in order to get people riled up in support of them, and it seems there are plenty of soft headed people in this thread falling for it. Observe:

http://www.theregister.co.uk/2009/06/12/eu_opera/
http://www.channelregister.co.uk/2009/06/12/microsoft_windows_7_ie_europe/
RichCreedy 14th June 2009, 01:17 Quote
@ASTRALWANDERER no operating system or software can offer full protection, osx, and linux distro's also have failings, that could potentially be used against an unsuspecting user. to suggest otherwise would be irresponsible. millions of windows users do so with few problems, by keeping their systems fully updated, and using suitable av/firewalls, windows firewall does an adequate job, and is better than having nothing.

Microsoft have done nothing wrong, they are mearly offering an all in one solution to make life easier for the enduser
they dont prevent the user from installing third party apps. third party software vendors, are only complaining because they have been unable to provide a product that every user wants/needs
RichCreedy 14th June 2009, 01:26 Quote
that wasnt meant to be astralwanderer, it was meant to be n3mo, sorry for my mistake.
perplekks45 14th June 2009, 01:36 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by RichCreedy
that wasnt meant to be astralwanderer, it was meant to be n3mo, sorry for my mistake.
That's what the "edit" button is there for. :p

Oh, and @Red 5:

Well, I just think it's a bad joke to blame MS and not Apple. And I think Windows is the way it is because people want it to be like that. It's good that way.
DarkLord7854 14th June 2009, 03:14 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by Red 5
Oh for crying out loud. Microsoft have only made this announcement as a publicity stunt in order to get people riled up in support of them, and it seems there are plenty of soft headed people in this thread falling for it. Observe:

http://www.theregister.co.uk/2009/06/12/eu_opera/
http://www.channelregister.co.uk/2009/06/12/microsoft_windows_7_ie_europe/

TL;DR

Summary plz. Kthx
Mix 14th June 2009, 05:09 Quote
I didn't have to be told how to feel. Microsoft's feelings are my feelings. And there's a lot of crap in those pages as well.

Microsoft's not going to release programs from other companies for them. It's called MICROSOFT Update, not Microsoft "Steam".
Quote:
Originally Posted by Red 5
Oh for crying out loud. Microsoft have only made this announcement as a publicity stunt in order to get people riled up in support of them, and it seems there are plenty of soft headed people in this thread falling for it. Observe:

http://www.theregister.co.uk/2009/06/12/eu_opera/
http://www.channelregister.co.uk/2009/06/12/microsoft_windows_7_ie_europe/
Mix 14th June 2009, 05:16 Quote
True, but fresh installs are always better and more stable.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tyrmot
Not being able to upgrade straight from Vista is a pain in the a*** though.
perplekks45 14th June 2009, 23:53 Quote
You're new here so you're forgiven but please take a look at this thread.

Thank you very much. ;)

Oh, and welcome to the forums of course. And I agree with you about Windows Update.
Xtreme_Machine 15th June 2009, 12:22 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by AstralWanderer
What many people seem to be forgetting (including Tim S) is the lengths to which Microsoft went to........ Anyone seeking to blame the EU for this is simply falling for MS' PR.

Finaly, somebody is talking some sense

Misconduct is misconduct. If a company seeks a stupid *ss solution to evade the EU claims thats not the EU's fault.
SteveU 27th June 2009, 11:57 Quote
What's next, SKY+ with no satellite dish!?!?!?
steveo_mcg 27th June 2009, 13:05 Quote
You my good man just failed at analogies, Sky doesn't come with a dish installed you have to pay to have some dude fit it for you.
SteveU 29th June 2009, 08:43 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by steveo_mcg
You my good man just failed at analogies, Sky doesn't come with a dish installed you have to pay to have some dude fit it for you.

touche
perplekks45 30th June 2009, 00:22 Quote
Touche?

What you should've said is:

OMFGPWN3D!

:p
Log in

You are not logged in, please login with your forum account below. If you don't already have an account please register to start contributing.



Discuss in the forums