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Apple iPad Air and new Retina iPad mini unveiled

Apple iPad Air and new Retina iPad mini unveiled

The new Apple iPad Air.

Apple has announced the iPad Air, a new thinner, lighter variation on its full-size iPad, as well as a new Retina Display-touting iPad mini.

Frustrating many a tech site by not calling it the iPad 5, or new iPad 5 even, Apple has otherwise revealed what many were expecting and indeed hoping for with its new full-size tablet.

The new model sports a similar design to the iPad mini, with a much slimmer bezel and squarer sides, and is only 450g in weight. Overall thickness has also dropped to just 7.5mm. This isn't quite as slim as the Sony Xperia Z tablet but is still impressive.

Inside is an Apple A7 processor with M7 motion co-processor, the former of which Apple claims is 8x faster than previous models and with 72x faster graphics. Battery life hasn't changed, though, with it remaining at 10hours.

WiFi AC is included as well as dual microphones, a 5-megapixel rear camera and 1080p video recording.

Pricing for the new model, which replaces the existing one, starts at $499 for $16GB, and $629 for the 4G version. The iPad 2 will again remain, though at rather high price of $399.

Apple iPad Air and new Retina iPad mini unveiled

As for the iPad mini, the new model has the same 2048 x 1536 resolution as its bigger brother, as well as the same internal specs, with an A7 processor, AC WiFi, and 10 hours battery life.

Pricing will start at $399 with Wi-Fi, $529 with mobile data, while the existing iPad mini will remain, at a price of $299.

Apple has also revealed new MacBook Pro with Retina Display and Mac Pro models.

Image Credit: The Verge

70 Comments

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flame696 22nd October 2013, 19:39 Quote
Im just confused with the iPad now and the iPad mini retina is ridiculously priced.
rollo 22nd October 2013, 20:34 Quote
A none Retina mini was the same price in the uk as the retina one is now ( £319 give or take, £399 for main one). American prices look a bit nuts but I dont live in america.

Wont be buying either, waiting for my surface pro 2 to arive.
BLC 22nd October 2013, 20:43 Quote
Oh, there's some new Apple stuff? OK.

*pats wallet and goes back to his Nexus 7*
jcb121 22nd October 2013, 20:56 Quote
wasn't there already an Ipad 2?
Meanmotion 22nd October 2013, 21:06 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by jcb121
wasn't there already an Ipad 2?

Precisely.
sandys 22nd October 2013, 21:19 Quote
Looks like a nice update to the ipad and that res on the mini makes it an attractive device.
proxess 22nd October 2013, 21:54 Quote
Apple aren't very good at counting are they.
fix-the-spade 22nd October 2013, 23:30 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by proxess
Apple aren't very good at counting are they.

Better than most game devs, not that that's anything to be proud of.
RedFlames 23rd October 2013, 00:56 Quote
So in order we had:

iPad
iPad 2
The New iPad [that was and still is genuinely it's official name]
iPad with Retina Display
iPad Air

imo they should have stuck to their ipod naming strategy and refer to them by generation - 1st gen., 2nd gen. etc...
jrs77 23rd October 2013, 02:52 Quote
Who cares about the naming? Look at the graphics cards from nVidia or AMD

The new iPad mini got a nice screen-resolution unmatched by any other manufacturer for a 7" device, and the new iPad Air just got it's name by the fact that it got alot lighter and thinner, just like the MacBookAir.

I'm happy with my iPad3 for entertainment and some browsing in the interwebs and I don't plan to replace it until it breaks.
AmEv 23rd October 2013, 05:47 Quote
I really don't care too much about resolution, personally. Remember: the GPU has to render every pixel. More pixels means more power required. More power required means less battery life.

Also, PPI. Beyond some point, it becomes harder for the human eye to distinguish one pixel from another. So, those pixels become wasted.

Yes, I do agree that my Thrive's PPI is km the low side, but when I hold it a short distance away, 720p vids aren't too bad.
Xir 23rd October 2013, 07:06 Quote
Exactly,

does a 7" device really need more resolution than an average 24"monitor?
There's no content available above 1080 anyway, and I don't rerally suppose anyone using these uses high res video's. Couldn't stream 50GB's of bluray onto there anyway.
BLC 23rd October 2013, 07:10 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by AmEv
I really don't care too much about resolution, personally. Remember: the GPU has to render every pixel. More pixels means more power required. More power required means less battery life.

Also, PPI. Beyond some point, it becomes harder for the human eye to distinguish one pixel from another. So, those pixels become wasted.

Precisely. These are portable devices, so good battery life and a good quality screen - that doesn't necessarily mean "retina" levels of resolution - are more important to me than the resolution and PPI count.

Apple used to harp on about quality carrying a premium, and then the likes of Amazon & Google came along and showed everyone that you can have quality without the premium price tag. Now Apple are the ones launching lower-cost phones and tablets. Hopefully people will start to realise that, trend setters they may be, but Apple are charging you a bloody fortune for their badge. I doubt it though.
liratheal 23rd October 2013, 09:00 Quote
Apple seem to have lost their direction since Jobs went.

Still don't like any of it though.
Gareth Halfacree 23rd October 2013, 09:32 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by BLC
[...] trend setters they may be [...]
I've always been nonplussed by how Apple manages to convince people that it's a company built on firsts. Every single success Apple has had, from the very first Apple Computer, has been the result of spotting something somebody else has done and jumping on the bandwagon. Literally everything. Apple didn't create the first home computer, the first graphical user interface, the first laptop, the first metal-bodied laptop, the first all-in-one, the first personal data assistant, the first MP3 player, the first smartphone, the first tablet, the first mobile app store, the first high-resolution tablet, the first high-resolution laptop, the first desktop app store, or - for this latest announcement - the thinnest tablet. 7.55mm? That's nice, Apple. I'll stick with the 6.9mm Xperia Tablet Z I've got charging on my desk right now.

Where Apple excels is in following trends early enough that it looks like it's setting trends. While it can certainly be argued that Apple got where it is today by doing things better than anyone else (depending on whether you're of the opinion that 'shinier and more expensive' is 'better') the company can never be accused of doing things before anyone else.
XXAOSICXX 23rd October 2013, 10:19 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gareth Halfacree
Quote:
Originally Posted by BLC
[...] trend setters they may be [...]
I've always been nonplussed by how Apple manages to convince people that it's a company built on firsts. Every single success Apple has had, from the very first Apple Computer, has been the result of spotting something somebody else has done and jumping on the bandwagon. Literally everything. Apple didn't create the first home computer, the first graphical user interface, the first laptop, the first metal-bodied laptop, the first all-in-one, the first personal data assistant, the first MP3 player, the first smartphone, the first tablet, the first mobile app store, the first high-resolution tablet, the first high-resolution laptop, the first desktop app store, or - for this latest announcement - the thinnest tablet. 7.55mm? That's nice, Apple. I'll stick with the 6.9mm Xperia Tablet Z I've got charging on my desk right now.

Where Apple excels is in following trends early enough that it looks like it's setting trends. While it can certainly be argued that Apple got where it is today by doing things better than anyone else (depending on whether you're of the opinion that 'shinier and more expensive' is 'better') the company can never be accused of doing things before anyone else.

QFT

+1
rollo 23rd October 2013, 11:08 Quote
Your right in a way and wrong in another, they may not of made the first in anything but in mp3 , smartphones, tablets they made the first that people actually wanted to buy in large numbers. Similar thing with all in one pc, and they are still the only ultrabook manufacture who has posted a profit from it.

Take the smartphone market there's 2 profitable manufactures in the entire industry, all the rest have lost so much money they are going broke, been brought out, or going under. Tablets is the exact same story. MP3 was the same thing.

Apple don't care for tech people anymore than they care for Apple but its a tiny market they are missing out on. They just sell to the rest of the market.

Apple does one thing better than any other hardware manufacture it creates a buzz for its products in marketing and awareness then it gives big launch events. Then 1 week later you can buy it. Look at AMD they mensioned the r290x 1month plus we still have no launch date or price.

Took 6 months for the orginal surface pro to reach anywhere outside of USA.
Gareth Halfacree 23rd October 2013, 11:15 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by rollo
[...] they are still the only ultrabook manufacture who has posted a profit from it.
Dude, have you seen Apple's pricing? If A. N. Other Ultrabook manufacturer charged what Apple does for the same spec, they'd be making a profit too! (Full disclaimer: I have a 2013 MacBook Air 13.3". I hate the bleedin' thing. Oh, the hardware's pretty nice, but by god the operating system is a slog.)
Snips 23rd October 2013, 11:22 Quote
I think the Nokia 2520 kind of pissed on Apples bonfire with the earlier conference. Yesterday felt like"Wow, a good well designed and well priced Nokia tablet" and then later " What? another iPad with not really that much changed"
Meanmotion 23rd October 2013, 11:30 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gareth Halfacree
Quote:
Originally Posted by rollo
[...] they are still the only ultrabook manufacture who has posted a profit from it.
Dude, have you seen Apple's pricing? If A. N. Other Ultrabook manufacturer charged what Apple does for the same spec, they'd be making a profit too! (Full disclaimer: I have a 2013 MacBook Air 13.3". I hate the bleedin' thing. Oh, the hardware's pretty nice, but by god the operating system is a slog.)

For ultrabooks of comparable build quality and specs Apple actually offers very competitive pricing. Most of the £600-£800 ultrabooks are not worthy of the name (plastic build, thick, slow processors, poor battery life, etc).
rollo 23rd October 2013, 11:39 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gareth Halfacree
Dude, have you seen Apple's pricing? If A. N. Other Ultrabook manufacturer charged what Apple does for the same spec, they'd be making a profit too! (Full disclaimer: I have a 2013 MacBook Air 13.3". I hate the bleedin' thing. Oh, the hardware's pretty nice, but by god the operating system is a slog.)

You brought one even does not really say its overpriced or you would of brought a cheaper competitor product if there was one. Why would you buy something you hate would be another question.
Gareth Halfacree 23rd October 2013, 11:54 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by Meanmotion
For ultrabooks of comparable build quality and specs Apple actually offers very competitive pricing. Most of the £600-£800 ultrabooks are not worthy of the name (plastic build, thick, slow processors, poor battery life, etc).
For me, it was a toss-up between the Air and the Sony Vaio Pro, which is: thinner, lighter, more powerful, comes with a free 18-hour sheet battery(!), has a longer default battery life, Full HD touch-screen, NFC receiver built into the trackpad, and has a three-year warranty to Apple's one-year. For pretty much the same price. In retrospect, I should have bought that and stuck Linux on it. Ah, well, you live and learn!
Quote:
Originally Posted by rollo
You brought one even does not really say its overpriced or you would of brought a cheaper competitor product if there was one.
Sorry, I'm afraid I didn't understand that.
Quote:
Originally Posted by rollo
Why would you buy something you hate would be another question.
I didn't know I was going to hate it when I bought it, obviously, or I would have bought something else.
abezors 23rd October 2013, 11:54 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gareth Halfacree
Oh, the hardware's pretty nice, but by god the operating system is a slog.)

You DO realise you can install Windows on the thing right? Or Linux... And I'm not talking about bootcamp, just wipe the entire OS and put what you want on it.
Gareth Halfacree 23rd October 2013, 11:58 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by abezors
You DO realise you can install Windows on the thing right? Or Linux... And I'm not talking about bootcamp, just wipe the entire OS and put what you want on it.
Actually, you can't. Well, you can install Windows, but I hate that even more than I hate OS X. As for Linux, the kernel modules for the 2013 MacBook Air aren't finished: even if you get it on through rEFInd, you'll have no usable wireless, the fan will constantly run, and the speakers won't work, among other issues.

Believe me, though: once Linux has full support for the 2013 model Air, OS X is going bye-bye.
Meanmotion 23rd October 2013, 12:12 Quote
[QUOTE=Gareth HalfacreeFor me, it was a toss-up between the Air and the Sony Vaio Pro, which is: thinner, lighter, more powerful, comes with a free 18-hour sheet battery(!), has a longer default battery life, Full HD touch-screen, NFC receiver built into the trackpad, and has a three-year warranty to Apple's one-year. For pretty much the same price. In retrospect, I should have bought that and stuck Linux on it. Ah, well, you live and learn![/QUOTE]

I haven't played with it extensively but this pretty much sums up what I've seen regards the VAIO Pro. http://gizmodo.com/sony-vaio-pro-review-climbing-a-steeper-grading-curve-1149487745
Gareth Halfacree 23rd October 2013, 12:30 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by Meanmotion
I haven't played with it extensively but this pretty much sums up what I've seen regards the VAIO Pro. http://gizmodo.com/sony-vaio-pro-review-climbing-a-steeper-grading-curve-1149487745
I don't think there's anything in that review I couldn't live with - especially when compared with the aforementioned advantages the device brings over the Air. Hell, just having a more sensible keyboard layout would likely be worth the trade-offs.

And to be rid of OS X. Bliss. Do you know how you take a screenshot of the currently active window on Windows and place it on the clipboard? Hold Control and press Print Screen. Do you know how you take a screenshot of the currently active window on Linux and place it on the clipboard? Hold Control and press Print Screen, then choose 'Copy to Clipboard' (or 'Save As' if you want to save directly to a file instead). Do you know how you take a screenshot of the currently active window on OS X and place it on the clipboard? Hold Control, Command, Shift, then press 4, then let go of all keys, then press the spacebar, then click on the window. Amaze!
monkiboi 23rd October 2013, 13:01 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gareth Halfacree
Quote:
Originally Posted by BLC
[...] trend setters they may be [...]
I've always been nonplussed by how Apple manages to convince people that it's a company built on firsts. Every single success Apple has had, from the very first Apple Computer, has been the result of spotting something somebody else has done and jumping on the bandwagon. Literally everything. Apple didn't create the first home computer, the first graphical user interface, the first laptop, the first metal-bodied laptop, the first all-in-one, the first personal data assistant, the first MP3 player, the first smartphone, the first tablet, the first mobile app store, the first high-resolution tablet, the first high-resolution laptop, the first desktop app store, or - for this latest announcement - the thinnest tablet. 7.55mm? That's nice, Apple. I'll stick with the 6.9mm Xperia Tablet Z I've got charging on my desk right now.

Where Apple excels is in following trends early enough that it looks like it's setting trends. While it can certainly be argued that Apple got where it is today by doing things better than anyone else (depending on whether you're of the opinion that 'shinier and more expensive' is 'better') the company can never be accused of doing things before anyone else.

I'm often surprised how people confuse invent and innovate. As far as I'm aware, Apple generally claim to do the latter.
lacuna 23rd October 2013, 13:29 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by Meanmotion
Quote:
Originally Posted by jcb121
wasn't there already an Ipad 2?

Precisely.

It hasn't changed, hence the same name.
fdbh96 23rd October 2013, 13:49 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by Snips
I think the Nokia 2520 kind of pissed on Apples bonfire with the earlier conference. Yesterday felt like"Wow, a good well designed and well priced Nokia tablet" and then later " What? another iPad with not really that much changed"

In apples defence they don't have to change a lot, seeing as its on the 5th generation now, and the 2520 runs RT which is a pointless OS that really doesn't cut it against android or ios.

With regards to the vaio pro, there are hundreds of users on the forums complaining about wifi signal and it has been mentioned by many reviewers as well. Also, I had a play with one the other day and it feels like its made out of paper its so flimsy. If I was so anti apple but still wanted an Air clone I would probably go with the acer aspire s7, but that costs the same if not more than the air and still not the same battery life with a pretty horrible keyboard compared to the air.

I think I'm probably going to end up with the new 13" rMB purely because most laptops now that are as thin and light as it cost the same anyway (I get 10-15% student discount), and it also has higher powered processors than most ultrabooks. Plus that display is awesome :D
Snips 23rd October 2013, 14:59 Quote
I'd have to disagree with the RT "pointless OS" comment. If you have used it regularly, you will see that it functions perfectly well. People still go on about the MYTH of the lack of Apps. Again, that just isn't the case and with Nokia producing their own quality apps, it only gets better. Would you like 400,000 apps and have to sift through the crap to try and find a decent one or would you like 50,000 quality apps? If you like to sift through crap, iOS and Droid is your obvious choice of OS.

There's more internet buzz about the Nokia tablet than the new ?th edition of the iPad, that's pretty much a big industry statement.
Gareth Halfacree 23rd October 2013, 15:02 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by Snips
There's more internet buzz about the Nokia tablet than the new ?th edition of the iPad, that's pretty much a big industry statement.
Citation requested. According to Twitter's trending topics, the most talked about topic on the site at the moment is the iPad Air; Nokia doesn't even appear on the list. My RSS feeds are filled with sites talking about Apple's announcements, too, with only a very few discussing Nokia - and those that do using a single story to cover all Nokia's announcements, compared to splitting Apple's news across up to a dozen (no, seriously, SEO-a-go-go!) different stories.

Same goes for Google Trends: Apple is number one, Nokia doesn't list. Same story in the UK, where Apple lists twice (once as Apple, once as Apple Store.)
Snips 23rd October 2013, 16:29 Quote
As of now, yes those trends are correct (No Bing data though I see o.0) Last night was a little different and I've also been away from my desk most of the day but before I left I read this:-

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-24636132

Which was the tone of quite a few other editorials I read last night.
Gareth Halfacree 23rd October 2013, 17:00 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by Snips
As of now, yes those trends are correct (No Bing data though I see o.0) Last night was a little different.
Not according to historical data from Google, it wasn't. As for Bing: you tell me how to pull historical trend data from Bing the same way I do from Google and I'll gladly include that too.
fdbh96 23rd October 2013, 17:42 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by Snips
I'd have to disagree with the RT "pointless OS" comment. If you have used it regularly, you will see that it functions perfectly well. People still go on about the MYTH of the lack of Apps. Again, that just isn't the case and with Nokia producing their own quality apps, it only gets better. Would you like 400,000 apps and have to sift through the crap to try and find a decent one or would you like 50,000 quality apps? If you like to sift through crap, iOS and Droid is your obvious choice of OS.

There's more internet buzz about the Nokia tablet than the new ?th edition of the iPad, that's pretty much a big industry statement.

Windows RT has nowhere near the same quality of apps as ios, sure there's lots of rubbish but its the same with the app store on RT anyway. When a developer decided to make an app, its nearly always released on either ios or android first. Its the same price as an iPad and RT is just as locked down as ios anyway.
rollo 23rd October 2013, 18:03 Quote
Just look at this forum the Nokia post has 3 reply, this one is into 2 pages already.

Surface rt was a sales failure, what makes Nokia think there version will be anything but. The original rt cost Microsoft about $1bil in write downs.

Apple shares went up post announcement by about $23 give or take, Nokia shares went up by 10 cent.
Snips 23rd October 2013, 21:53 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gareth Halfacree
Not according to historical data from Google, it wasn't. As for Bing: you tell me how to pull historical trend data from Bing the same way I do from Google and I'll gladly include that too.

I couldn't tell you what goggle did last night as I don't use it but I'll gladly take your word for it. All I'm saying was all I read last night were glowing reports about the Nokia announcement and a shrug of the shoulders for the Apple one.

@ fdnf96 as I said, you obviously like to sift through the crap, it's your choice

@ rollo There's not much negativity on these 2 pages though is there????????
Nexxo 23rd October 2013, 22:32 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by fdbh96
Windows RT has nowhere near the same quality of apps as iOS...

I'm not entirely sure that I agree. There are some really polished apps on RT (News Bento, YouTubeRT, Weave, Qool, Tweetro+, MetroTube) and more coming (Flipboard, yay!) --and they have live tiles, which is a nice edge.

With a few lines of code in the page header, websites can embed RSS feeds into the bookmarked tile on the Start Screen (so you automatically have a dynamically updating bookmark). Test drive some here: http://pinnedsitedemo.cloudapp.net/testdrive/index.aspx

Basically, RT has potential. iOS feels like it has gone as far as it can.
Quote:
Originally Posted by rollo
Just look at this forum the Nokia post has 3 reply, this one is into 2 pages already.

Surface rt was a sales failure, what makes Nokia think there version will be anything but. The original rt cost Microsoft about $1bil in write downs.

Apple shares went up post announcement by about $23 give or take, Nokia shares went up by 10 cent.

Actually Apple's shares pretty much didn't budge: http://www.usatoday.com/story/tech/2013/10/23/tech-stocks-apple/3168975/
rollo 23rd October 2013, 23:00 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by Snips
I couldn't tell you what goggle did last night as I don't use it but I'll gladly take your word for it. All I'm saying was all I read last night were glowing reports about the Nokia announcement and a shrug of the shoulders for the Apple one.

@ fdnf96 as I said, you obviously like to sift through the crap, it's your choice

@ rollo There's not much negativity on these 2 pages though is there????????

people are talking about it wether positive or negative, nobody is even discussing nokias tablet. All publicity is good publicity in most cases.s
fdbh96 23rd October 2013, 23:09 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by Snips
I couldn't tell you what goggle did last night as I don't use it but I'll gladly take your word for it. All I'm saying was all I read last night were glowing reports about the Nokia announcement and a shrug of the shoulders for the Apple one.

@ fdnf96 as I said, you obviously like to sift through the crap, it's your choice

@ rollo There's not much negativity on these 2 pages though is there????????

I don't get your point about sifting through rubbish, if I search for an app in the microsoft store, I get a bunch of rip off clones that usually don't work, whereas I get the real deal in the ios store.

I'm not saying RT will never be good, just that at the moment there really isn't a lot to choose the ipad air over the nokia, and I'm pretty sure sales will tell the same story.

If for example it included a x86 processor as many cheaper win8 tablets include then they could be onto a winner.
Nexxo 24th October 2013, 08:00 Quote
Who needs apps when you have a full Flash-capable, WebGL-capable browser? :)
Snips 24th October 2013, 08:06 Quote
Exactly, they do tend to get App-happy but in most cases they just aren't needed 😉
Guinevere 24th October 2013, 11:07 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gareth Halfacree
the company can never be accused of doing things before anyone else.

Ha ha.

So they weren't the first company to make serious money out of digital music distribution?

They weren't the first company to have mass adoption of a capacitive touch 'large screen' (at the time) mobile phone?

They weren't the first company to adopt glass and aluminium for mass market manufacturing?

They weren't the first company to develop a gesture based user friendly mobile operating system?

They weren't the first company to make serious money out of mobility focussed digital software distribution?

They weren't the first company to introduce a user friendly, all day usable, capacitive touch screen tablet?

They weren't the first company to bake usable and reliable high DPI capabilities into their operating system? (This is one of many many little things that Apple have done before anyone else. They are at the forefront of dropping legacy crap and introducing the new. Not first at everything, but first at many.)

There's LOTs of things that Apple didn't do first, but to say they have never done anything before anyone else is quite simply incorrect.

Sure you can throw stones at Apple and say the iPad wasn't the first tablet etc, but boy was it the first usable and user friendly tablet. Everything that came before it was a dog.
Gareth Halfacree 24th October 2013, 11:14 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by Guinevere
So they weren't the first company to make serious money out of digital music distribution?
Pass - I have no figures on that, so we'll mark that up as a win for you.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Guinevere
They weren't the first company to have mass adoption of a capacitive touch 'large screen' (at the time) mobile phone?
No, they weren't.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Guinevere
They weren't the first company to adopt glass and aluminium for mass market manufacturing?
No, they weren't.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Guinevere
They weren't the first company to develop a gesture based user friendly mobile operating system?
No, they weren't.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Guinevere
They weren't the first company to make serious money out of mobility focussed digital software distribution?
I have no idea what that means. Call it a draw, pending a more detailed explanation.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Guinevere
They weren't the first company to introduce a user friendly, all day usable, capacitive touch screen tablet?
No, they weren't.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Guinevere
They weren't the first company to bake usable and reliable high DPI capabilities into their operating system? (This is one of many many little things that Apple have done before anyone else. They are at the forefront of dropping legacy crap and introducing the new. Not first at everything, but first at many.)
No, they weren't. And if you call the workarounds built into OS X for the retina displays 'usable and reliable,' then we have very different definitions of those words in mind.

I make that one for you, five for me, and a draw.
rollo 24th October 2013, 11:38 Quote
They are still the only company who posts figures for there Digital distribution btw.

Question, Who was the first then to mass market with a large screen touch device. I know IBM made there ipaq in 1994 but was it ever released to the mass market?

3rd question no idea if its true or not, Can not say I remember another product.

4th they were the first to mass market with such a thing, Cornwell Uni made the first actual one in the late 90s.

5th That could be debated to the cows come home, Id suggest they were the first to reach the mass market with a tablet and still are the go too for many users, They were not the first tablet but they were so poor im not sure companys would like them been classed as such.

Do not own OSX or have used it so can not say, On the phones and tablets at least the Retina works fine makes text alot sharper in high resolution devices.
Gareth Halfacree 24th October 2013, 11:47 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by rollo
Question, Who was the first then to mass market with a large screen touch device. I know IBM made there ipaq in 1994 but was it ever released to the mass market?
There were various that pre-date the iPad's launch in 2010 - my favourite being the FrontPath ProGear, which had a 10.4" display and launched in 2001 following a beta run on pre-production devices in 2000. It was based on Linux (with a Windows 98-based SE available later), powered by a 400MHz Transmeta CPU, and had a whopping 64MB of RAM upgradeable to 128MB. Lovely bit of kit.
Quote:
Originally Posted by rollo
[snip]
I am, of course, happy to be proven wrong on any of the above, with the provision of evidence contrary to my position. Any opportunity to learn should be welcomed!
rollo 24th October 2013, 11:52 Quote
1st 4th 5th is google search time ( Might bother to search it eventually). 3rd as ive said I have no idea would love to know though.
Cei 24th October 2013, 11:52 Quote
I'd like to see your products/evidence for disclaiming Guinevere's statements, Gareth? Some are bound to be contentious, and really revolving around what we define mass market adoption/sales as.

From my perspective, Apple take ideas and concepts from wherever they find them, polish them and spit out a product that works. Taking the case of the iPhone, we did have previous "smartphones", but I can't think of any that combined the capacitive touch, large glass display and lack of buttons in to a single product. I remember (fondly) the Sony Ericsson P1 as a prime example of what smartphones used to be like, and then the iPhone came along.
Gareth Halfacree 24th October 2013, 11:58 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cei
I'd like to see your products/evidence for disclaiming Guinevere's statements, Gareth? Some are bound to be contentious, and really revolving around what we define mass market adoption/sales as.
I'd like to see Guinevere's evidence first. I'm not willing to put the effort in to citing the whole list if the person I'm discussing with won't do the same. (Also, see above for at least one example from memory.)

As you say, though, some are arguable: is a device mass-market if it's available in shops, or only if it's available internationally? Does it have to sell above a certain number of units, and if so what number?

EDIT: Ah, screw it, why pretend I have a life. Right, from the top ladies and gentlebeings:
1) I have no evidence to the contrary, as previously stated.
2) iPhone was released on the 29th of June 2007; the LG 'Prada' KE850 was announced on the 12th of December 2006 and went on sale in May 2007, selling a million handsets in its first 18 months. A large capacitive touch-screen dominates the front of the device.
3) Motorola's Razr family, announced July 2003 and launched 2004, used glass and aluminium heavily in its construction.
4) Plenty of prior art for this one, although I'm not sure what is meant by 'gesture.' I'll put Palm OS as my evidence here, though, 'cos I was a huge Palm fanboy back in the day. 1996.
5) Again, not really sure what is meant here, so I'll refrain from providing guesswork evidence.
6) FrontPath ProGear, 2001, as mentioned upthread.
7) I can't speak for any other operating system, but most Linux desktop environments (including Gnome and KDE) have perfect support for high-resolution displays, and have had well before Apple brought out any retina-class products.

There.
Cei 24th October 2013, 12:10 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gareth Halfacree
I'd like to see Guinevere's evidence first. I'm not willing to put the effort in to citing the whole list if the person I'm discussing with won't do the same. (Also, see above for at least one example from memory.)

As you say, though, some are arguable: is a device mass-market if it's available in shops, or only if it's available internationally? Does it have to sell above a certain number of units, and if so what number?
Well, I can make a stab...


So they weren't the first company to make serious money out of digital music distribution?
This has to refer to the iTunes Store, which opened in ?2003. From memory, at that time there was very little out there in terms of legitimate, paid for distribution, with most digital music being acquired via less legal means.

They weren't the first company to have mass adoption of a capacitive touch 'large screen' (at the time) mobile phone?
Can only mean the iPhone. I really can't think of a device that did this beforehand - everything prior was resistive touch (usually stylus driven), and had plenty of buttons as well (usually a full keypad). The iPhone was the start of the glass front, handful of buttons and capacitive technology (noting that Apple didn't invent capacitive!).

They weren't the first company to adopt glass and aluminium for mass market manufacturing?
Guessing unibody MacBook Pros here, based on monocoque techniques first used in airplanes (i.e.: loading through external skin, rather than internal support structures). This is pretty hard to prove, but a Google for "first unibody computer" consistently comes back with the MacBook Pro, which was using the alu/glass approach.

They weren't the first company to develop a gesture based user friendly mobile operating system?
iOS. However, arguments can be made for Palm etc. (or even Apple Newton?), but then it hinges on the "user friendly" aspect. I had a Sony palm device, and dear lord was it a pain in the rear.

They weren't the first company to make serious money out of mobility focussed digital software distribution?
App Store. Yes, Apple were there first, but we're restricting use to "mobility focussed" - digital software distribution has been around donkeys years. However, I think Apple may well have been first to hit upon the App Store method of curation and also sheer profit.

They weren't the first company to introduce a user friendly, all day usable, capacitive touch screen tablet?
Again, we're giving Apple a win by applying caveats. Yes, they did come up with the first capacitive touch screen tablet, but the tablet form factor had been around a lot longer. Apple re-invented it with modern technology.

They weren't the first company to bake usable and reliable high DPI capabilities into their operating system? (This is one of many many little things that Apple have done before anyone else. They are at the forefront of dropping legacy crap and introducing the new. Not first at everything, but first at many.)
I'd award Apple a point here. Windows is still terrible at high DPI, whereas OS X does quite a reasonable job. Note, not a perfect job. However, willing to listen if some other OS did it first?
Gareth Halfacree 24th October 2013, 12:24 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cei
Can only mean the iPhone. I really can't think of a device that did this beforehand - everything prior was resistive touch (usually stylus driven), and had plenty of buttons as well (usually a full keypad). The iPhone was the start of the glass front, handful of buttons and capacitive technology (noting that Apple didn't invent capacitive!).
See my edited post above: LG Prada was the first large-screen capacitive-touch smartphone with no keypad, not the iPhone.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cei
This is pretty hard to prove, but a Google for "first unibody computer" consistently comes back with the MacBook Pro, which was using the alu/glass approach.
Ah, we're talking laptops? That'll need further research - but while the MacBook Pro was the first unibody design, I'm pretty sure it wasn't the first aluminium laptop (and it certainly wasn't the first metal laptop - Moggridge's GRiD Compass, released 1982, used a magnesium alloy chassis.)
EDIT: How could I forget the Kaypro 2000? Released in 1985 with a brushed-aluminium clamshell design.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cei
However, arguments can be made for Palm etc. (or even Apple Newton?), but then it hinges on the "user friendly" aspect. I had a Sony palm device, and dear lord was it a pain in the rear.
Hey, I *liked* PalmOS!
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cei
However, I think Apple may well have been first to hit upon the App Store method of curation and also sheer profit.
Nup: Canonical had the Ubuntu Software Centre for a considerable time before the App Store appeared, and other platforms have had similar. (Again, though, that wasn't 'mobility focussed,' if that means what you've interpreted it to mean.)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cei
Again, we're giving Apple a win by applying caveats. Yes, they did come up with the first capacitive touch screen tablet, but the tablet form factor had been around a lot longer. Apple re-invented it with modern technology.
See my post above on the FrontPath ProGear.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cei
I'd award Apple a point here. Windows is still terrible at high DPI, whereas OS X does quite a reasonable job. Note, not a perfect job. However, willing to listen if some other OS did it first?
Linux.
Cei 24th October 2013, 12:36 Quote
Oh, I'd totally forgotten the LG Prada - I knew somebody with one, and I remember it flying out of a 3rd storey window due to frustration (okay, they had a short temper). With the Prada, I remember rumours of a lawsuit against Apple that came to nothing - indeed, that Apple had prototype iPhones from 2005 (revealed in the Samsung lawsuit). That said, you're right, LG did beat Apple to the punch with that one in terms of launch - no idea which went in to R&D first though.

Alu & glass I assumed computers was intended, otherwise we could take a trip in to the world of architecture or whatever. I think this is a case of selective choice of words - Apple probably were the first to use "aluminium AND glass" in a laptop, but obviously both had been used separately before.

As for PalmOS...oh dear. Really? I remember trying to take notes on the damn thing, and swearing at its inability to work out my handwriting, which I swear was following the silly rules!

For Canonical, that's kind of my point, it's again careful use of words in the original post (mobility focussed) that lets Apple get a "win". Does then fit with my logic as to how Apple work - take an idea and make it better/slightly different.

Linux DPI? Do tell, I'm interested!

Oh, completely missed that FrontPath. What the hell is it? Capacitive touch? Resistive? But again, the caveats have emerged, particularly "All day" - the FrontPath stuff I can find indicates only 3 hours on battery.
Gareth Halfacree 24th October 2013, 12:46 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cei
Alu & glass I assumed computers was intended, otherwise we could take a trip in to the world of architecture or whatever. I think this is a case of selective choice of words - Apple probably were the first to use "aluminium AND glass" in a laptop, but obviously both had been used separately before.
I'm pretty certain the Kaypro 2000 had a glass display inside its aluminium chassis, in 1985.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cei
As for PalmOS...oh dear. Really? I remember trying to take notes on the damn thing, and swearing at its inability to work out my handwriting, which I swear was following the silly rules!
Oh, aye, really. Started with an original 3Com Palm, upgraded to a Palm III then a Palm 3C (colour - deep joy!) before settling on a Palm T|X. It was only when I got my first proper 'smart' phone (Nokia N95 8GB) that I got rid of the T|X, so as to avoid carrying two devices. I found I could write pretty quickly and accurately with Graffiti, but that's a personal preference thing I reckon - worked for me, though. I *miss* Palm - damn you, HP, for snapping it up and then killing it off.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cei
Linux DPI? Do tell, I'm interested!
Nothing much to tell: most Linux DEs allow fluid adjustment of most display settings, including DPI. Fancy running a high-resolution monitor with massive objects that have really smooth edges? Crank it up. (This is how OS X works, incidentally: you don't get to use the true resolution of the 'retina' displays for your applications by default, with everything rendering at the same physical size as a non-retina display - but appearing much smoother.) Want more space on your low-resolution monitor? Shrink it down so everything is small and difficult to read, but gives you all the space you could want for rearranging windows. Still not enough room? Hell, have a virtual desktop with a 32,000x32,000 pixel resolution - your DE will happily scroll your real-monitor viewport when your mouse hits the edges.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cei
Oh, completely missed that FrontPath. What the hell is it? Capacitive touch? Resistive? But again, the caveats have emerged, particularly "All day" - the FrontPath stuff I can find indicates only 3 hours on battery.
I remember it as capacitive, but that may be faulty memory - and yes, it had poor battery life compared to an iPad (but, then again, was based on near-decade-earlier technology, so we should likely cut it a little slack.) As I'm getting hungry and fancy lunch, I won't try to find another rival product (although I can remember a stack of other mass-market (though relatively poor-selling) tablets off the top of my head, but would need to research the battery life and touch technology) so I'm willing to give Apple that as a win if we're requiring "all day battery AND capacitive AND mass-market," without further research.
Cei 24th October 2013, 12:49 Quote
Ahhh, the Palm 3C. I settled on a Sony Clié NZ90 in sliver. It was incredibly well built, and swish as hell, but limited by the OS to be honest. I've still got it, just needs a new battery.
fdbh96 24th October 2013, 14:05 Quote
I think what makes the apple products different is that it combines all of them into one product. It combined a mass of revolutionary ideas admittedly some from other companies into a new device. Sure people had aluminium devices and some had touchscreens, but not many had both.
Gareth Halfacree 24th October 2013, 14:07 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by fdbh96
It combined a mass of revolutionary ideas admittedly some from other companies into a new device.
Some? Little bit of an understatement, I fear.
AmEv 24th October 2013, 14:37 Quote
Heh. Last time I changed the DPI in Windows on a hi-res, hi-PPI laptop, it made the text huge , but the images were the same size. It made everything feel "ugly".

However, my solution was to turn down the resolution. Not the ideal solution, yes, but it "made everything look good".

Now, I have an HTPC with Linux installed. The keyboard has a trackball instead of a touchpad, but feels GREAT on a lap! (Older PS2 keyboard, only place you might get it is eBay. Sejin Electron Inc 3wr-140) As for the DPI? Well, it made the interface still "beautiful" 10 feet away, and it allowed for less precision on hitting the buttons, while still getting 1080p.

(Then again, most DEs require several images from 16*16, all the way up to 256*256 icons. So there's that.
Archtronics 24th October 2013, 15:29 Quote
Ipad air seems a good upgrade to the lineup not sure if it's enough to warrant upgrading from my 4th gen tho.

At the end of the day does it matter who did it first it doesn't guarantee success. Apple did set the benchmark for a lot of products, they also showed people where willing to spend on quality. As a company that almost went under it was simply in the right place at the right time, I wonder if Microsoft ever regrets it's investment.
Nexxo 24th October 2013, 19:20 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gareth Halfacree
Oh, aye, really. Started with an original 3Com Palm, upgraded to a Palm III then a Palm 3C (colour - deep joy!) before settling on a Palm T|X. It was only when I got my first proper 'smart' phone (Nokia N95 8GB) that I got rid of the T|X, so as to avoid carrying two devices. I found I could write pretty quickly and accurately with Graffiti, but that's a personal preference thing I reckon - worked for me, though. I *miss* Palm - damn you, HP, for snapping it up and then killing it off.

Wanted a Newton, but of course it was unaffordable so I started with a PalmPilot Personal in a nice black leather filofax-like cover (sequel to the PalmPilot 500, and its brother the PalmPilot Pro to the 1000). Then moved to the PalmPilot 3C, then the PalmPilot Tungsten with the slide-out design. Then I tried finding something a bit more tablet-ish before tablets even existed as such, like the Siemens SimPad with Windows CE --but that was simply not viable enough to even work.

Then I switched to a (second-hand) Motion Computing LE1600 Windows XP Tablet which worked rather well, slow boot times, short battery life and weight notwithstanding --and the rather touch-unfriendly interface. I modded it with Yahoo Widgets Informer, Samurize and Rocketdock and thus created a smartphone-like springboard before iOS and Android even hit the scene...

When the iPhone came out (and yes, I had the LG Prada before that for a while, but always came back to my Motorola Razr) I switched to the iPhone 3G --later the iPhone 4.

Since then, the Surface RT --what my Windows XP tablet should have been-- and the Lumia 920.

EDIT: In fairness to Apple, the iPhone was pretty much already leaked by the time the LG Prada come along. Everybody knew it was coming and what it would look like. To me the Prada felt like a pre-emptive move of an iPhone clone. In terms of functionality it was nice, but basically just a dumbphone with touch screen. No email, no full-fledged web browser.
fdbh96 25th October 2013, 03:43 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gareth Halfacree
Some? Little bit of an understatement, I fear.

I assure you the reason other companies didn't create a device as successful as the iphone was not because of morals. They just simply didn't have the capability or the will to do it.
Gareth Halfacree 25th October 2013, 08:23 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by fdbh96
I assure you the reason other companies didn't create a device as successful as the iphone was not because of morals. They just simply didn't have the capability or the will to do it.
I wasn't referring to the success, but the "revolutionary ideas." As we've established, Apple doesn't invent - it 'innovates.' I'm not here trying to argue that the iPhone was unsuccessful - because it clearly wasn't - but rather that not a single individual technology inside that phone originated at Apple, a fact I think we have now covered rather well.

Apple excels at taking others' ideas, combining them into a single product with shiny design, and marketing the holy zombie Jeebus out of it. Sometimes this results in a hit (hello, iPhone) and sometimes a miss (goodbye, Newton and Pippin.) You jokingly suggest I believed that Apple's competitors didn't beat it to the punch (although, as the LG Prada proves, they actually did) because of some moral objection to success: I jokingly suggest in response that, had LG enjoyed a massive fan-base of Kool-Aid drinkers who would buy a turd providing it was encased in unibody aluminium and graced with the logo of their saviour, perhaps people would be desperately searching for stock of the LG Prada 5S right now. (Obviously untrue, but then if we're being ridiculous here...)

Incidentally, can we digress for a moment and recall the feature list of the original iPhone? I remember a friend getting one, and discovering that basic features - the ability to change ringtones or message tones, the ability to send or receive Vcards, cut and damn paste - were missing. Sure, they've been added since, but the original iPhone was hardly a perfect device.
rollo 25th October 2013, 10:21 Quote
Iphone 3G was what began the iphone craze that with the App Store. Most phone companies give free upgrades too it as well.( in the uk at least O2 the only provider on contract give away the iphone 3G for free to orginal iphone users)

Apple uses the financial muscle Its built up to buy out companies that have ideas. Then it creates them into products people want to buy. Apple could buy out most of the major phone companies for pocket change and still have 100 bil spare.

Apple does 3 things better than anyone else, hype, marketing, supply chain. Those 3 things have got it where it is today. Apples shares are up close to $20 since the iPad air announcement. Hype and marketing has them so much higher. Twitter / rss is going nuts about this iPad.

Till someone else comes along who can do what they do well they will make there huge profits and continue to dominate the sector with all 15% market share in phones at least. Iphone is there most profitable product range by some distance even out does the iPad which despite its success has never seen iphone like sales.
Gareth Halfacree 25th October 2013, 10:27 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by rollo
Till someone else comes along who can do what they do well they will make there huge profits and continue to dominate the sector with all 15% market share in phones at least.
Dominate? With 15%? Using IDC's 2Q13 figures, just 'cos that's what I happen to have to hand and I should really be doing real work right now (sorry boss!) rather than searching for 3Q13, Apple had a 13.1% share of the smartphone market - putting it very firmly in second place behind Samsung, which had a 30.4% share. That's more than double - the very definition of domination.

(Don't like IDC's figures? SA says 13.6% and 33.1% respectively - an even bigger lead for Samsung.)
rollo 25th October 2013, 10:40 Quote
I go on profit figures, apple is at 70% Samsung 33% everyone else is in the negative at last update in about April of this year.
Gareth Halfacree 25th October 2013, 11:04 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by rollo
I go on profit figures, apple is at 70% Samsung 33% everyone else is in the negative at last update in about April of this year.
Link? I'd be interested to read that.
rollo 25th October 2013, 12:01 Quote
Will post once home
rollo 25th October 2013, 12:05 Quote
Gareth Halfacree 25th October 2013, 12:10 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by rollo
http://appadvice.com/appnn/2013/05/in-terms-of-smartphone-profits-apple-and-samsung-continue-to-dominate

Posted of phone whilst on lunch not 100% that link will work
Interesting - thanks for that. It shows a 'value share' of 53% for Apple and 47% for Samsung - although the 70% and 33% of your post is closer for 2012 figures.
rollo 25th October 2013, 12:36 Quote
Noticed, still crazy though. 13% market share gives 53% of its profits.
Gareth Halfacree 25th October 2013, 12:55 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by rollo
Noticed, still crazy though. 13% market share gives 53% of its profits.
Aye - nice work if you can get it! Not surprising given its market position, though: Apple's cheapest smartphone is pretty much the same price as - or more than - most of its rivals' flagship devices, which translates to high margins. Samsung, meanwhile, has a bunch of similar high-margin products - Galaxy S4, Galaxy Note 3 - but also a shedload of low-margin budget products. The result: Samsung easily outsells Apple, but does so by taking a hit on its margin. What is possibly more surprising from those latest figures is that Samsung is selling more than twice as many handsets as Apple yet is only six percentage points away in profit share despite the fact that devices like the Galaxy Y sell for a tenth of the cost of an iPhone.
rollo 25th October 2013, 13:00 Quote
Think they are both pretty happy with there work. Less said about the rest the better.
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