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Apple's new MacBook Pro blocks upgrades

Apple's new MacBook Pro blocks upgrades

The new MacBook Pro with Retina Display includes a proprietary SSD, glued-down battery and soldered memory modules - meaning it's impossible to upgrade.

Shiny gadget maker Apple has revealed its plans for the future: a transition to completely bespoke, non-user-serviceable devices - the silver aluminium equivalent of 'black box' computing.

The company's headlining device at its recent World Wide Developer Conference (WWDC) was the MacBook Pro with Retina Display, a device that combines the innards of a Core i7-powered MacBook Pro laptop with the kind of high-resolution display found on the new iPad. The result: a 15in laptop which easily beats anything else on the market for image quality.

Upgrading the standard MacBook Pro 15in display of 1,440x900 pixels to an impressive 2,880x1,800 pixels, the new MacBook Pro is pretty impressive. Internally, too, things have been upgraded: the device now includes a 2.3GHz Core i7 chip and 8GB of RAM, with the option of a 2.7GHz version with 16GB of RAM for those with the cash. Nvidia gets a chance to play in this release as well, with Apple's long-standing relationship with AMD being ditched in favour of an Nvidia GeForce GT 650M GPU with 1GB of dedicated video memory.

At 18mm thick, the MacBook Pro is slimmer than the last generation's 24mm while half a kilo has been shaved off the weight - although, thanks to its all-metal construction and some tightly-packed components, the device still tips the scales at just over 2KG.

So far, so impressive: but the changes Apple didn't mention at the WWDC event that have people raising their eyebrows: a teardown of the device by the guys over at iFixit reveals several changes which come to the detriment of the user. Firstly, the battery pack - good for seven hours of use, Apple claims - is glued in place and completely irreplaceable. Secondly, the standard 2.5in SATA hard drive of the last-generation MacBook Pro has been replaced with a proprietary SSD manufactured for Apple by Samsung - similar to that found in the MacBook Air.

The biggest change in the new release is also the most egregious. Spotted by Ian Chilton, Apple is so serious about vendor lock-in it has taken the move of soldering the memory modules directly to the motherboard - meaning that it's impossible to upgrade the memory on a MacBook Pro with Retina Display after purchase.

It's something Apple has done on its consumer-oriented products in the past: as with most tablets, the iPad features soldered memory modules, and the ultra-slim MacBook Air family uses the same. The point of the MacBook Pro, however, is to appeal to professionals - and by refusing to allow users to upgrade the memory after the point of purchase, Apple is artificially restricting the device's lifespan.

To be fair to Apple, the default configuration of the new MacBook Pro with Retina Display features 8GB of RAM, with 16GB available as an optional extra - but the base model will already set you back £1,799 while a factory upgrade to 16GB costs a whopping £160 on top - significantly more than the £72 a pair of Corsair 8GB modules suitable for the previous-generation MacBook Pro systems costs on the open market.

It's easy to see why Apple is taking this route: charging £160 for something which costs £72 retail means a whole wodge of pure profit. The company has got away with the same tactics in the consumer space, but - once fans have finished being distracted by the admittedly impressive display - we can't help but wonder if doing the same in the purportedly professional space is a step too far for the fruit-themed company.

146 Comments

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Shirty 14th June 2012, 10:48 Quote
Back to the Apple of old, just how it should be.
flibblesan 14th June 2012, 10:59 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by shirty
Back to the Apple of old, just how it should be.

Erm... Apple of old produced machines that could be upgraded. This is a very new change from Apple.
rollo 14th June 2012, 11:04 Quote
This site and trusted reviews is becoming like the apple news website

Trusted reviews even does rumours of apple
Shirty 14th June 2012, 11:04 Quote
Consider me an uninformed lout :D

I suppose they have seen the business benefits of the lack of iPod/Phone/Pad upgradeability and transferred that philosophy to their new laptops?
rocknroll237 14th June 2012, 11:08 Quote
I think this is wrong. Apple are against jail-broken phones AND they don't allow people to change components in their laptops.

That's not the way forward! That's being greedy and limiting what people can do with their products.

The rate at which they upgrade their products is also a cause for concern! They should spend at least 2 years designing and manufacturing a really solid product with no issues what so ever, instead of releasing a new version every single year. That's just promoting a throw-away society, not to mention how much that pressurises people into buying a new version.
aLtikal 14th June 2012, 11:09 Quote
Whilst the initial spec is very high, and suitable for almost any need the locked in hardware doesn't really seem like much of an issue - as theirs no need to upgrade...But after dropping £1,799 on a LAPTOP i would expect it to last me 5 years-or-so. And when that time comes hardware will be faster, better and cheaper and would almost certainly want to upgrade a few things - but instead I'd be forced to drop another £1,xxxx on a whole new laptop to cater for my needs. What a frustrating decision...
Gareth Halfacree 14th June 2012, 11:12 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by rollo
This site and trusted reviews is becoming like the apple news website
Really? *One* story on Apple - and a critical one at that - and suddenly it's "becoming like the Apple news site?" Really really?
Guinevere 14th June 2012, 11:27 Quote
RAM isn't a real issue for the pros the machine is targeted at, you just have to buy it with the required RAM already installed. Shame they didn't provide an option for 32GB though as that could deliver them an extra 0.001% of sales from those that really need >16GB and want it in a laptop.

Storage isn't a killer issue either as there's a wide enough choice of Thunderbolt arrays these days, and this machine has USB 3 too if you don't mind a comparably slow drive. It has an SDXC slot which could be useful if you don't mind using some storage in 64GB chunks. Handy for those needing to archive in a small package. Limited to about 60MB/s though... so not great if you're editing 4k video.

The battery is replaceable but only by Apple, the same as on their iOS devices, the MB Air and technically most of their previous MBP range. If you build in a replaceable battery then you increase size and weight dramatically as you need to provide extra protection for those "prone to explode" lithium cells.

If you want a "take it apart with the nearest screwdriver" laptop then you're best buying a big desktop replacement windows machine. Windows 7 is great, Windows 8 is... well it'll be something or other I'm sure. You'll certainly get a faster machine for your money and you'll probably save enough to buy a decent 27" screen to dock it with when in the office!

If you want a highly portable machine, the ultimate in screen tech, blistering SSD speeds, 'enough' RAM, amazing battery life, a great keyboard, great sound, an unmatched trackpad and most importantly... OSX. Then it's a great machine and for pro use not that badly priced really. Keep it for two years and then sell it for 70% of what you paid.

Macs hold their prices very well!

Most people have no need for a machine like this, but hell will they want one (or the tech that's in it within an expandable and larger chassis). Yes it's expensive, but spec for spec it works out cheaper than the non retina MBP (Because Apple charge so sodding much for upgrades).

IMHO it's not that it's a bad decision to produce an 'appliance' like this which broadly speaking locks you in to the spec it comes with, it's that it's a different decision. You buy a machine, you use the machine. If you want to tinker, upgrade and hack... then you buy a different machine.

The air, which follows exactly the same model as this has done amazingly well and basically lit a huge bonfire under every laptop maker out there. I'm sure this machine will do the same for what is regarded as a 'pro' machine.

Gone are 17" 2" thick machines (I used to have a Dell one of these). Now you can get double the spec in a third of the weight. Woo hoo. I don't sodding care I have to buy 16GB now just to be safe... I only need 8GB anyway ;)

Disclaimer: I've just ordered one to use as an iOS development machine.
Guinevere 14th June 2012, 11:30 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gareth Halfacree
*One* story on Apple - and a critical one at that - and suddenly it's "becoming like the Apple news site?" Really really?

Don't be upset...

You can please some of the people all of the time... or all of the people some of the time...

But no matter what you do you'll just stir up the usual mixed vitriol from trolls, fanboys and haters.
Gareth Halfacree 14th June 2012, 11:31 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by Guinevere

IMHO it's not that it's a bad decision to produce an 'appliance' like this which broadly speaking locks you in to the spec it comes with, it's that it's a different decision. You buy a machine, you use the machine. If you want to tinker, upgrade and hack... then you buy a different machine.
I agree with this: I have nothing against the concept of black-box computing. Heck, I have a lot of love for the Raspberry Pi, and that's just as impossible to upgrade as the new MacBook Pro (albeit at a fraction of the price.) What concerns me is that I thought the Pro *was* the "different machine." If you wanted black-box computing, you bought the Air; if you wanted something future-proof and upgradeable, you bought the Pro. Now you buy the Air only if you can't afford the Pro, which - to me - kinda belies the whole "it's a professional device, honest" marketing of the Pro line.

That said, I'd be the first to admit I'm not the MacBook Pro's target market.
Bede 14th June 2012, 11:36 Quote
This is part of the long trend towards inflexible, yet well-engineered, systems which began with games consoles back in the day. The end result is what will undoubtedly be an excellent machine, with a screen that may well embarrass other manufacturers into upping their game. If it didn't have OSX, I'd get one of these.
themassau 14th June 2012, 11:46 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gareth Halfacree

I agree with this: I have nothing against the concept of black-box computing. Heck, I have a lot of love for the Raspberry Pi, and that's just as impossible to upgrade as the new MacBook Pro (albeit at a fraction of the price.)

the raspberry pi is ment to be cheap so putting sockets on the motherboard will add extra costs. but at 1500+€ than you expect that you van upgrade.

but i have a question of my own. can you still upgrade the storage or is that also locked because if that is true than they have just doe something really stupid.
Gareth Halfacree 14th June 2012, 11:48 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by themassau
but i have a question of my own. can you still upgrade the storage or is that also locked because if that is true than they have just doe something really stupid.
As the article mentions, the SSD is a proprietary model and not user-upgradeable. The Air uses a similar component; a third-party company did release an upgrade kit - which included a compatible, larger SSD and a USB caddy to re-use the old SSD - but was pressured by Apple into cancelling the product.

As Guinevere points out, there's an SDXC slot for adding in 64GB of 'internal' storage, or you can connect Thunderbolt or USB 3.0 external drives. That's yer lot, though.
rollo 14th June 2012, 11:49 Quote
just a matter of opinion mr gareth
ya93sin 14th June 2012, 11:51 Quote
I don't think this is a bad idea.

With very similar, if not identical hardware, it should help Apple with fixing any potential bugs in applications, and just improve the relationship between the hardware and software.
Adnoctum 14th June 2012, 12:15 Quote
It makes sense for Apple to do this because they are no longer a computer company, and this is just another move further towards the "experience company" they aspire to be.
This is sad for the enthusiasts who were fond of Apple in the post-pre-Jobs era (such as myself) but it is great for the enthusiasts who who were fond of Apple in the Jobs as the Glorious Messiah-era because they don't actually have to make much of a decision. Apple is a teat they can keep sucking on and be satisfied.

I'm brand/device agnostic. I look at what I want to do, how much I have to spend, I look at products available at various price/performance points and I make a decision. A part of this is evaluating how long I believe I can keep the device, is there an upgrade path that will help me support a device longer. If so, I may make a decision to pay more for this capability. The longer I can keep a device, the cheaper it becomes for me over my period of ownership.
This was especially true when I was buying a laptop, seeing as for the foreseeable future CPU power will be "good enough" for my mobile use. When I was buying my last cell phone, replaceable battery and storage card size was more important than screen size and multimedia capabilities.
I think most people here would behave the same way when making a purchase. Most people aren't when it comes to computers.

This behaviour is not something Apple wants in a customer, they want a customer that is dazzled by appearances, gadgets and the whole Apple experience. They want constant churn to new Apple devices by making it difficult to use their devices for longer. Why upgrade with a larger hard drive, when you can just go and buy a new laptop with a larger hard drive?
Which is fine, just not for me.
fix-the-spade 14th June 2012, 12:18 Quote
Ah well, since Lion came along Apple hasn't been a viable option anyway, back to the PC and my horde of plug ins!
Elton 14th June 2012, 12:19 Quote
Not a bad idea. Although it kind of solidifes the product lines, in the case of hardware failure (infamous on the Imacs especially the G5s) what shall we do? Because paying 10-30% of the price just for the board replacement is wasteful.
D B 14th June 2012, 12:49 Quote
Really dont like to be unable to upgrade memory, hard drive, or change a battery ... Such a backwards step
... I dont like how some companies do not want you to do what you want with your machine
thogil 14th June 2012, 12:52 Quote
The ram upgrade cost is worse than the £72 cost of buying the modules. You aren't paying £160 for 16GB, you are paying £160 for an additional 8GB.
Stotherd-001 14th June 2012, 13:02 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by rollo
This site and trusted reviews is becoming like the apple news website

Trusted reviews even does rumours of apple

If you think this don't go near engadget or the verge. You'll cry.
Cei 14th June 2012, 13:11 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gareth Halfacree
As the article mentions, the SSD is a proprietary model and not user-upgradeable. The Air uses a similar component; a third-party company did release an upgrade kit - which included a compatible, larger SSD and a USB caddy to re-use the old SSD - but was pressured by Apple into cancelling the product.

As Guinevere points out, there's an SDXC slot for adding in 64GB of 'internal' storage, or you can connect Thunderbolt or USB 3.0 external drives. That's yer lot, though.

Gareth, you're half right on this one. OCW still make the third party "blade" SSDs, and have pledged to release them for the new MacBook Pros. You're right that there was some legal kerfuffle over this, but I think Apple backed off.

I for one ordered the new machine. Yes, there are a few sacrifices, namely the non-swappable battery, but the previous models weren't exactly easy either, and it's simply what you have to accept for the slimness of the notebook. If you want removable, you need to expect a fatter computer. The MacBook Air is very similar, and a lot of other Ultrabooks too.

Equally, I know for my usage 8GB of RAM is plenty, and the 256GB SSD is also enough for 'on the go' use - my photo library will be on an external drive that sits on my desk.
Gareth Halfacree 14th June 2012, 13:13 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cei
Gareth, you're half right on this one. OCW still make the third party "blade" SSDs, and have pledged to release them for the new MacBook Pros. You're right that there was some legal kerfuffle over this, but I think Apple backed off.
Oh, did they? I missed that - last I'd heard (some time ago) was Apple threatening to pull OCW's "Made for iPhone" licence for its other products unless the SSDs went bye-byes. Glad to hear somebody convinced Apple to change its mind.
Harlequin 14th June 2012, 13:15 Quote
said this about 2 years ago when they replaced the `latest` OS - apple are moving away from end users and within themselves - will only be a matter of time, as they have generated the appeal , when `you want the new OS? buy a new iMac/phone/pad etc - as your current kit ont be able to use it.

only a matter of time till that happens - and the sheeple will lap it up
fdbh96 14th June 2012, 13:16 Quote
Apple can do this because they are the only people who make this kind of laptop. If every other maunfacturer was making 2880x1800 displays then Apple might make some different descisions. Also, I don't really mind the non-fixing philoshophy, as it means they can make the laptop a lot thinner, which I prefer to user replacability.
Also, very few people are going to want 16gb+ RAM on laptop anyway.
Guinevere 14th June 2012, 13:17 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by D B
Really dont like to be unable to upgrade memory, hard drive, or change a battery ... Such a backwards step

Would you have bought one had they made all three user upgradable?
Maki role 14th June 2012, 13:41 Quote
To be honest, in a laptop I don't really mind that much. Given the quantity of RAM available to begin with, upgrading shouldn't really be necessessary for a while, if you're worried just pop for 16 and the higher price. As for storage, again upgrading isn't a problem as one would have all their bulky files on a big external HDD system or desktop, I'd much rather have portability.

All in all I just see this more as a refinement to what the use of a machine like this is: stylish, portable and powerful. I'd be more worried if they said that the new iMacs and Mac Pros had no upgrade paths instead. The battery is the only issue I would have.
Stotherd-001 14th June 2012, 13:49 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by fdbh96
Apple can do this because they are the only people who make this kind of laptop. If every other maunfacturer was making 2880x1800 displays then Apple might make some different descisions. Also, I don't really mind the non-fixing philoshophy, as it means they can make the laptop a lot thinner, which I prefer to user replacability.
Also, very few people are going to want 16gb+ RAM on laptop anyway.

...yet. Mac users expect their laptop to last a long time, I know many still using first gen Core 2 Duos, and they basically said their laptop is unusable with the default 1 or 2 Gb of RAM with the latest OSX's. Eventually an OS update will come out that uses more than 8Gb.
kenco_uk 14th June 2012, 14:13 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bede
If it didn't have OSX, I'd get one of these.

You'd have to fork out for a license to run Windows, but I'm assuming the bootcamp utility/drivers are still available?
Guinevere 14th June 2012, 14:13 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by Stotherd-001
Eventually an OS update will come out that uses more than 8Gb.

Depending on what you do 8GB is already not enough (Why I'm buying mine with 16GB). The thing is if you're using this for 'pro' tasks then by the time you're editing content that absolutely has to have more than 16GB of RAM then you'll want a faster machine anyway.

It's unlikely though that an update to OSX will ever demand more than say 4GB for running the OS quite happily. It's app use and content of those apps thats the demand. The apps I use aren't too demanding (the Xcode IDE, photoshop, lightroom) so I've never encountered a problem with only having 8GB of RAM in my current MB.

At the moment if you can't fit your dataset (3D, Photography, Video, Database etc) within 16GB of RAM then you probably need more than a quad core i7 anyway if you're going to do your work justice.

My RMPB will last me a good few years (if I or my kids don't break the damn thing). I think it's more likely I'll be needing (desiring?) a faster CPU before I have an issue with 16GB of RAM.
MrJay 14th June 2012, 14:14 Quote
So a year or so down the line you get a duff memory module and need to replace it...Oh wait its soldered on, guess you are going to have to fork out for a new logic board. That will be £1400 please.
m0zes 14th June 2012, 14:18 Quote
Quote:
It's easy to see why Apple is taking this route: charging £160 for something which costs £72 retail means a whole wodge of pure profit.

Criticism where criticism is due, but unfortunately this comment doesn't demonstrate the reality of the configuration. Yes the memory upgrade is considerably more expensive than a typical pc, but then again your typical laptop doesn't come with the ram chips soldered to the motherboard. In such a circumstance if a ram chip dies it's just a matter of replacing the faulty dimm. However in this configuration if a ram chip dies apple has to replace the entire motherboard, hardly a cheap or efficient repair. I don't doubt apple will make a nice profit of these laptops, but a large portion of the memory upgrade cost will most likely be to cover the extra expense of warranty claims.
Cei 14th June 2012, 14:32 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by MrJay
So a year or so down the line you get a duff memory module and need to replace it...Oh wait its soldered on, guess you are going to have to fork out for a new logic board. That will be £1400 please.

Oh wait, that's why we have warranties.
MrJay 14th June 2012, 15:06 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cei
Quote:
Originally Posted by MrJay
So a year or so down the line you get a duff memory module and need to replace it...Oh wait its soldered on, guess you are going to have to fork out for a new logic board. That will be £1400 please.

Oh wait, that's why we have warranties.

You are missing the point. Even under warranty your MacBook Pro has to be taken to an Apple registered service provider (or an Apple store) it has to be diagnosed, stripped, replacement parts ordered, faulty parts sent to Ireland/China for re-working or scrapping. Your new logic board arrives, its fitted, tested and finality makes its way back to you.

So thats probably at least a 2 week turn around depending on how busy they are?

All this because Apple have decided to solder everything to the bloody logic board. SODIMM slots would not add much to the weight or thickness of the divide, especially as you can get hight density modules these days. In the same token I've recently stripped a Macbook Air, the SSD is user servicible, why not in the latest Pro?
Gareth Halfacree 14th June 2012, 15:06 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by m0zes
Criticism where criticism is due, but unfortunately this comment doesn't demonstrate the reality of the configuration. Yes the memory upgrade is considerably more expensive than a typical pc, but then again your typical laptop doesn't come with the ram chips soldered to the motherboard.
That would be a fair point, if upgrading the non-Retina Pro - which uses standard SODIMM modules - didn't cost a ridiculous amount as well. Taking the 4GB bottom-end 13in MacBook Pro from its stock 4GB to 8GB costs an extra £80 at the point of ordering. A 2x4GB guaranteed MacBook Pro compatible kit from Corsair? £35 - *and* you get to sell your old 2x2GB modules on eBay.
BentAnat 14th June 2012, 15:10 Quote
I have to pop in here, and say that I approve of it.
I do not know ANYBODY (in person) that has ever upgraded a laptop. Most people don't even upgrade desktops.
Most upgraders go as far as maybe some more RAM/HDD and a new GPU on desktops, and then they bail.

The price tag of the MBP dictates that most people will spec it out nicely, and it (likely) won't need more than 16GB RAM anyway (keeping in mind that OSx is compiled for the specific hardware - much like linux - and uses less RAM by default).
In terms of harddrive space: well, there's Thunderbolt and externals. Everyone uses externals anyway.

Batteries soldered in has been a "point of contention" since the first gen iPod, but quite frankly: 7 hours battery life on a 3-year old MBP... I have yet to see another laptop that does that. So that's a non-issue in my books as well.

Blackbox computing is cool, if done right. In this case, apple can't do much wrong...
DbD 14th June 2012, 15:14 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bede
This is part of the long trend towards inflexible, yet well-engineered, systems which began with games consoles back in the day. The end result is what will undoubtedly be an excellent machine, with a screen that may well embarrass other manufacturers into upping their game. If it didn't have OSX, I'd get one of these.

Just hope it doesn't go wrong, and make sure you get a warranty that lasts for ever because if it does it'll take a long time to fix, and if it goes wrong out of warranty you are screwed. My PC is great, if a memory module fails I buy a new one, it arrives the next day, job done. With a macbook you have to send the whole thing back, wait several weeks while they get a new motherboard (cause you can't replace broken ram), then get it shipped back. If it goes wrong 1 week out of warranty (as these machines always do) then you have to bin the whole machine and buy another one.
Silent_Raider 14th June 2012, 15:18 Quote
this makes me glad i bought a macbook pro last year! I've already upgraded from the stock 4gb of ram, first to 8gb, then to 16gb. Next up is upgrading the included 128gb ssd.

Why would I pay Apple to upgrade from 8gb of RAM to 16gb for $200 when you can buy it for less than $100? Seems like just another way for them to force you to buy Apple Care....grrrr.
MrJay 14th June 2012, 15:26 Quote
Its not just about the upgrading, i agree its a pretty beefy machine to start with!

My gripe is that from a service and repair point of view... you have drastically reduces the amount of components that can be changed.

The lead time on repairing your MPR in or out of warranty seriously increases in both cost and time.

You attempt to boot, you get a memory error....Whole new logic board.
Cei 14th June 2012, 15:43 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by MrJay
You are missing the point. Even under warranty your MacBook Pro has to be taken to an Apple registered service provider (or an Apple store) it has to be diagnosed, stripped, replacement parts ordered, faulty parts sent to Ireland/China for re-working or scrapping. Your new logic board arrives, its fitted, tested and finality makes its way back to you.

So thats probably at least a 2 week turn around depending on how busy they are?

All this because Apple have decided to solder everything to the bloody logic board. SODIMM slots would not add much to the weight or thickness of the divide, especially as you can get hight density modules these days. In the same token I've recently stripped a Macbook Air, the SSD is user servicible, why not in the latest Pro?

2 weeks? Hardly. Apple keep replacement parts in stock in their stores for all current models, and the most used parts for old ones. Turn around for a full logic board replacement on a current model is usually 2-3 days. The only time I've heard of Apple's repair times going over a week is when they have to order the part in, and that's usually because it's an older machine.

SODIMM slots would add thickness, and in a machine where they are trying to shave every last bit off the dimensions, it counts. It's exactly same in the Air, and if you're that bothered about removable RAM/drives, Apple will always sell you a standard MBP, which is thicker for exactly that reason - user replaceable parts.

Not sure why you think the new MBP has a non-removable SSD. The iFixit teardown clearly shows it is a blade SSD, same as with the Air you stripped down recently. Okay, new pins for some reason, but it is still removable with ease.
Quote:
Originally Posted by BentAnat
I have to pop in here, and say that I approve of it.
I do not know ANYBODY (in person) that has ever upgraded a laptop. Most people don't even upgrade desktops.
Most upgraders go as far as maybe some more RAM/HDD and a new GPU on desktops, and then they bail.

Blackbox computing is cool, if done right. In this case, apple can't do much wrong...

I've done a RAM upgrade on a laptop in the past, but that's only because it came with an aneamic 2GB. The new MBP has 8GB minimum, and I can't see any OS needing more than that for the lifetime of the computer.
Bakes 14th June 2012, 15:43 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by MrJay
Its not just about the upgrading, i agree its a pretty beefy machine to start with!

My gripe is that from a service and repair point of view... you have drastically reduces the amount of components that can be changed.

The lead time on repairing your MPR in or out of warranty seriously increases in both cost and time.

You attempt to boot, you get a memory error....Whole new logic board.

Not necessarily. Firstly, if Apple are fast, they could do next day delivery, making the repair process fairly painless. If you mean time faster than that - well the cheaper of the two retina 15 inchers has no options - you could relatively painlessly keep a couple of those in stock.

In any case, since when did memory fail except whilst overvolting? I mean, in my 5 years of messing around with computers, I've had one set of memory fail, and I traced that to me putting 2.5V into it and accidentally breaking the heatsink off.
Quote:
Originally Posted by themassau
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gareth Halfacree

I agree with this: I have nothing against the concept of black-box computing. Heck, I have a lot of love for the Raspberry Pi, and that's just as impossible to upgrade as the new MacBook Pro (albeit at a fraction of the price.)

the raspberry pi is ment to be cheap so putting sockets on the motherboard will add extra costs. but at 1500+€ than you expect that you van upgrade.

It's less to do with costs - it's to do with spacing. Every component in the new MacBook Pro is fit together extremely precisely - there simply isn't any extra space. If you look at a standard SODIMM, you'll notice that most of the space on it is just left-overs from when memory chips were larger. They've saved a lot of depth by knocking out all of the sockets. The same with SSDs - if you compare the size of the SSD in the new macbook pro to the size of the SSDs normally sold, the difference is dramatic - the new SSD is far, far smaller.

If you meant CPU or GPU sockets - well no laptop has those.


The main flaw with the laptop in my eyes is it's thin-ness. I own a last-gen (ie current gen 2 days ago) 15 inch macbook pro, and I bought it because of the high build quality of the case. I've managed to crush the case on one side, such that you have to hold dvd opening open in order to access parts. The bottom of the case doesn't fit on right anymore - and I can only imagine that the old cases were more sturdy than the new ones.
munim 14th June 2012, 15:50 Quote
I think it's just good engineering. Having the ram soldered on makes for less weight and less manufacturing complexity and size reduction. Compare: sodimm slot means extra plastic bits and metal pins, adding cost and requiring more space.
Mosquito 14th June 2012, 15:52 Quote
Wow BentAnat... a lot of generalizations there....

I have upgraded every single laptop that I've ever owned... first one I doubled the RAM, and had to replace a hard drive that died, and replaced a wireless card that fried, second one I upgraded the hard drive and RAM, netbook I upgraded the SSD and RAM, 2nd netbook I swapped HDD for SSD and upgraded the RAM...

"Most upgraders go as far as RAM/HDD and GPU" .... yes... and how many of those can you do with the new MB? None, so then... yeah, upgraders good luck with that. What's left beyond that anyway? PSU and optical drive? If you're replacing the motherboard... that's more of a rebuild than an upgrade in my book

I'm sure not everyone uses externals... I don't, never have, why? Because I could upgrade to whatever I need ;-) I've only got 2-3 friends that use externals, and I don't believe any of them bring them with them....

I must admit, though, that I am quite impressed by the display, and hope that it spurs much talk and upgrading for other manufacturers...


All this talk about not needing more than 16GB of RAM makes me think that no one uses them for any serious work... right now my work desktop has 16GB of RAM, and I'm pushing close to that being used... I don't even do photo editing and/or video editing, but I do have to run several VM's for work, and they use a lot of RAM... And true, no OS will likely require more than 8GB of RAM, but since when do people only boot up a computer and not use any applications?

I guess I just fit into the group of people who like the options for the "just in case" scenarios...
supermonkey 14th June 2012, 15:55 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by MrJay
You are missing the point. Even under warranty your MacBook Pro has to be taken to an Apple registered service provider (or an Apple store) it has to be diagnosed, stripped, replacement parts ordered, faulty parts sent to Ireland/China for re-working or scrapping. Your new logic board arrives, its fitted, tested and finality makes its way back to you.

So thats probably at least a 2 week turn around depending on how busy they are?

All this because Apple have decided to solder everything to the bloody logic board. SODIMM slots would not add much to the weight or thickness of the divide, especially as you can get hight density modules these days. In the same token I've recently stripped a Macbook Air, the SSD is user servicible, why not in the latest Pro?

Why would Apple go through all that trouble when the service center could just as easily take the hard drive out and put it in a new machine? The customer is instantly happy, and Apple can now take its time sending the old machine back to wherever to be refurbished.
fdbh96 14th June 2012, 15:58 Quote
Tbh, the answer to most of these 'why not' questions is because Apple simply didn't want to. They know what the majority of its customers want and gave it to them, admittedly for a premium.
Harlequin 14th June 2012, 16:06 Quote
Customer service is the biggest plus point given by those who buy apple products = you walk into the store and a new customer feels `part ` of the experienc. with the product apple control of the entire supply chain is why the US military are consulting with Apple ; as Apple have access to everything , everywhere they need , and are efficient from raw materials to finished product.

Ofc the flip side is , unlike a laptop which can have X amount of specifications with the same model - we all know what the spec is for the new Air PRO , so spare parts can be kept on site
DbD 14th June 2012, 16:22 Quote
They've even glued down the battery. So on my laptop after 3 years battery is getting on a bit - they all degrade, even "apple" ones which btw are identical to the batteries every other laptop uses. On my PC I just go to ebay, buy another one, put it in and battery life is like new. For an apple I have to send off my laptop so I can't use it, then pay a small fortune for them to replace it.
Cei 14th June 2012, 16:25 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mosquito
All this talk about not needing more than 16GB of RAM makes me think that no one uses them for any serious work... right now my work desktop has 16GB of RAM, and I'm pushing close to that being used... I don't even do photo editing and/or video editing, but I do have to run several VM's for work, and they use a lot of RAM... And true, no OS will likely require more than 8GB of RAM, but since when do people only boot up a computer and not use any applications?

How many people use VMs in their line of work? Not many, in relation to how many computers are out there. Most people use a computer for internet tasks, Word/Excel and maybe some in-house software that is about that demanding.

Even if you look at the "pro" market Apple is aiming for, we're talking about photograpers/videographers/iOS developers/Xcode developers and so forth. Sure, they may need plenty of RAM, but 16GB is certainly sufficient even in to the future. Apple aren't really marketing themselves at people who want to run lots of VMs on a laptop - they'll point you in the direction of a desktop workstation.

No OS will require 8GB of RAM to run any time soon. Not even 4GB. Hence a system with 8GB is going to remain usable for a long time.

Basically, your high RAM usage is a rare case scenario, and also why you're using a desktop.
Guinevere 14th June 2012, 16:28 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by BentAnat
I do not know ANYBODY (in person) that has ever upgraded a laptop. Most people don't even upgrade desktops.

I've upgraded my current MBP three times.

2GB > 8GB
160GB HD > 120GB SSD
Superdrive > 1TB HD

But I've now hit the limit of the machine. Not in the bits I could upgrade but in the CPU... it's just not fast enough for my needs. That'll teach me to skimp out on a CPU choice when buying a laptop!

Never again, this time I'm buying the top of the line and based on experience with another i7 machine I should be able to lower by build times from 20 seconds down to sub 4 seconds.

I have nothing against low spec machines that can handle a bit of upgrades (Like the normal MBP) but when buying a top of the line pro machine it doesn't matter. Just buy it with decent spec to start with.
r3loaded 14th June 2012, 16:35 Quote
This is probably Apple's way of making AppleCare an almost compulsory purchase for its Mac buyers. The problem arises when you're out of warranty and your RAM goes bad (which does happen). For any other laptop, you can buy replacement RAM for peanuts and be on your way. If the RAM goes bad in this, you're probably looking at hundreds for a replacement motherboard plus labour costs.

And glueing down the battery instead of using tri-wing screws in the last model serves no purpose other than to spite the customer for daring to repair their own system.
Guinevere 14th June 2012, 16:54 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by r3loaded
And glueing down the battery instead of using tri-wing screws in the last model serves no purpose other than to spite the customer for daring to repair their own system.

Do you genuinely feel that's the ONLY reason they did it this way?

Or is it also possible that it's just easier for them to build a machine like this knowing that >99% of their customers wouldn't ever think about unbolting an internal battery?
SchizoFrog 14th June 2012, 17:31 Quote
CAn I ask what the warranty is on these products? As with sealed units, once something, ANYTHING dies... outside warranty, end of Laptop.
Mosquito 14th June 2012, 17:31 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cei
How many people use VMs in their line of work? Not many, in relation to how many computers are out there. Most people use a computer for internet tasks, Word/Excel and maybe some in-house software that is about that demanding.

Even if you look at the "pro" market Apple is aiming for, we're talking about photograpers/videographers/iOS developers/Xcode developers and so forth. Sure, they may need plenty of RAM, but 16GB is certainly sufficient even in to the future. Apple aren't really marketing themselves at people who want to run lots of VMs on a laptop - they'll point you in the direction of a desktop workstation.

No OS will require 8GB of RAM to run any time soon. Not even 4GB. Hence a system with 8GB is going to remain usable for a long time.

Basically, your high RAM usage is a rare case scenario, and also why you're using a desktop.

Well, being in software consulting quite a few people use VMs in my workplace, due to client environments, restrictions, requirements and the like. Only reason I'm using a desktop at work is because I've yet to be assigned to a client where I'm required to be on-site, so I work from our office; otherwise laptops are issued. I guess I must be in the minority, although both my internships and now my fulltime job have required me to run VMs, and the two internships were laptops.

That's sort of my point, though, about "Most people are using it for word/excel and internet use"... if that's the extent of their use, why would they be getting a Pro? Seems like a waste to me. Where as if someone actually needed the Pro, they might want the ability to upgrade with out having to let someone go to do it... Where I had worked previously they would buy baseline business laptops and then upgrade the RAM because it was saving them quite a bit to buy RAM in bulk orders and upgrade that way.

I guess, the whole "sealed box" thing is fine for me when it comes to phones, tablets, MP3 players, and things like that, but for a computer it just doesn't makes sense to me.
r3loaded 14th June 2012, 18:19 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by Guinevere
Do you genuinely feel that's the ONLY reason they did it this way?

Or is it also possible that it's just easier for them to build a machine like this knowing that >99% of their customers wouldn't ever think about unbolting an internal battery?
There wasn't any particular reason for them to do so, and their other machines use screws. So why change it?
Quote:
Originally Posted by SchizoFrog
CAn I ask what the warranty is on these products? As with sealed units, once something, ANYTHING dies... outside warranty, end of Laptop.
Standard warranty is one year, AppleCare extends this to three years. Though in a family friend's experience, they did fix a MacBook that was a week or two out of warranty.
Cei 14th June 2012, 18:40 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mosquito
Well, being in software consulting quite a few people use VMs in my workplace, due to client environments, restrictions, requirements and the like. Only reason I'm using a desktop at work is because I've yet to be assigned to a client where I'm required to be on-site, so I work from our office; otherwise laptops are issued. I guess I must be in the minority, although both my internships and now my fulltime job have required me to run VMs, and the two internships were laptops.

That's sort of my point, though, about "Most people are using it for word/excel and internet use"... if that's the extent of their use, why would they be getting a Pro? Seems like a waste to me. Where as if someone actually needed the Pro, they might want the ability to upgrade with out having to let someone go to do it... Where I had worked previously they would buy baseline business laptops and then upgrade the RAM because it was saving them quite a bit to buy RAM in bulk orders and upgrade that way.

I guess, the whole "sealed box" thing is fine for me when it comes to phones, tablets, MP3 players, and things like that, but for a computer it just doesn't makes sense to me.
The point still stands, that your career is very much in the minority - even if everybody in your office uses VMs!

Why did you ignore my next paragraph about Apple's marketing towards "pro" users? I do know people who buy MBPs just for use as your average laptop, but they tend to buy the 13" models. My point towards pro users is that Apple's target market isn't people like yourself, utilising multiple VMs etc, but their more traditional "creative" audience, where 16GB of RAM is certainly more than enough.

That said, we can all agree that black box isn't for everybody - and if you don't want it, buy the other MBP design!
jrs77 14th June 2012, 19:17 Quote
I don't understand all the fuss really. Either you buy an Apple and live with it's limitations or you don't. Nobody forces you to buy their products.

In my experience with Apple products I've never had any issues and Apple was allways very fast at replacing or repairing my MacBooks back in the days when I used them.
These days I don't use 'em anymore as Adobe CS runs just as good on Wintel machines.

For normal people not having alot of understanding about systems doing only office and media I still do recommend Apples notebooks tho, as they're easy to use and maintain. And in question there's still the Apple-store that solves issues within a day or two, especially if you're a business-customer.

Tech-forums sure are not the audience for Apples products, but techies are only a tiny minority of PC-users.
Unicorn 14th June 2012, 19:42 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by rollo
This site and trusted reviews is becoming like the apple news website

Trusted reviews even does rumours of apple

1) Nobody here cares about what trusted reviews covers. This is bit-tech.

2) Apple news is technology news. Your argument is invalid because this is a technology site. It's not rocket science.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ya93sin
I don't think this is a bad idea.

With very similar, if not identical hardware, it should help Apple with fixing any potential bugs in applications, and just improve the relationship between the hardware and software.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Elton
Not a bad idea. Although it kind of solidifes the product lines, in the case of hardware failure (infamous on the Imacs especially the G5s) what shall we do? Because paying 10-30% of the price just for the board replacement is wasteful.

I don't see this as a good move at all. It's not something that will be appreciated by the more technical Apple users and is certainly not something that makes their already expensive products any more affordable. Don't get me wrong, I see the business sense in it and there's no doubt that they'll make silly amounts of extra profit from it, both from users opting for the higher spec models right away to the spares which will undoubtedly now be entirely Apple provided, branded and priced. I just don't think it'll go down well with a large percentage of people and it goes against my recyclable computing philosophy. This is one of the things that I can't understand about it. If the memory is now soldered to the board and a chip gets corrupted or damaged, the entire board has to be replaced. What happens to the old board? It's possible that it will be sent back to Apple to be repaired and sold again as an OEM approved second hand component, but this injects cost and waste into the repair cycle. This is only a theoretical example, but bear with me:

The old way:
- Computer develops RAM fault
- Computer is sent to repair centre
- Repair centre remove RAM module(s), replace with new ones
- Faulty RAM modules are scrapped to be recycled
- Customer gets computer back with a small bill for a simple repair and an affordable part

The new way:
- Computer develops RAM fault
- Computer is sent to repair centre
- Repair centre replaces motherboard
- Customer gets computer back with a large bill for a complex repair and an expensive part
- Faulty motherboard is sent back to Apple to be tested and repaired if necessary
- Motherboard is either beyond economic repair and is scrapped, or is repaired by Apple
- If the latter happens, the board is sent to a repair centre as an OEM approved 2nd hand spare to be installed in another faulty machine

There's a lot more time, work and cost involved in fixing or upgrading an Apple MBP now, and I don't think that's a wise move. Again, I can see where they're coming from - I haven't got blinkers on when it comes to this subject. I know that the space saved by putting chips directly on the board is valuable in Apple products and there are weight saving benefits as well, but in my honest opinion, the benefits don't outweigh the cost. It's already cost the product line a lot of popularity, and I think that's one of the most important things with the MBP range.

I say that as someone who loves Apple products and generally the company itself. I'm not a fanboy, just an admirer of their work. Their products have benefited me a lot in the past 5 or 6 years. I've used an iPhone since they came into existence and I've performed upgrades and repairs on countless Apple devices from the humble iPod all the way up to the most expensive Mac Pro and iMac. I vowed to buy myself a current (2011-2012 version) MBP for work before the year was out, but eventually changed my mind. I'm going for a "no nonsense" Thinkpad instead, because I get a lot more computer for my money than with the MBP and it's not as expensive to begin with.

Also, there's a typing error in the article:
Quote:
Internally, too, things have been upgraded too: the device now includes a 2.3GHz Core i7 chip and 8GB of RAM, with the option of a 2.7GHz version with 16GB of RAM for those with the cash

There's an extra "too" there ;)
r3loaded 14th June 2012, 19:59 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by jrs77
For normal people not having alot of understanding about systems doing only office and media I still do recommend Apples notebooks tho, as they're easy to use and maintain. And in question there's still the Apple-store that solves issues within a day or two, especially if you're a business-customer.

Tech-forums sure are not the audience for Apples products, but techies are only a tiny minority of PC-users.
The problem as I stated before is when the warranty runs out. Ok, the average laptop owner won't know how to fix it, but the local computer repair shop certainly does. Now that everything is soldered down and glued together, it becomes impossible for every the repair shop to fix it. The customer now has two options:

1) Motherboard replacement from Apple for hundreds of pounds.
2) Buy a new laptop that they don't particularly need for over a thousand pounds.

Then there's the whole ecological argument - it's incredibly wasteful that people will be forced into throwing away a perfectly good device made from expensive high quality parts just because it needed a £30 RAM replacement.
Gareth Halfacree 14th June 2012, 20:03 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by Unicorn
Also, there's a typing error in the article: There's an extra "too" there ;)
Two toos? Whoops! I'll fix it as soon as I'm back in range of a proper computer - using the CMS in Android is possible, but painful...
Elton 14th June 2012, 20:07 Quote
@Unicorn: Obviously it isn't a good idea, especially from a technical point of view or a view where preservation is involved (I'm a technician myself). But In terms of profit margins? They're rolling in cash. That is until a large defect with a certain component is found. Then they'll be crying.

It's still a double edged sword to be honest. It reduces the out of door cost for apple (which somehow doesn't trickle down to the consumer...take that reagan!) But on the other hand maintainence, troubleshooting and repairing these machines are prohibitively expensive. What is one to do? This is that out of the world though. But I am truly interested to see how battery life for this thing will be in 2-4 years. Because $3k is a large investment that should last at least that long.
Valinor 14th June 2012, 20:42 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cei

No OS will require 8GB of RAM to run any time soon. Not even 4GB. Hence a system with 8GB is going to remain usable for a long time.

Basically, your high RAM usage is a rare case scenario, and also why you're using a desktop.

You know, I'm sure someone said that we'd never need more than 640K of memory... (could be more of a limit when we consider how many programs people may want to run, not just how much the OS will use)
Unicorn 14th June 2012, 20:51 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by Elton
@Unicorn: Obviously it isn't a good idea, especially from a technical point of view or a view where preservation is involved (I'm a technician myself). But In terms of profit margins? They're rolling in cash. That is until a large defect with a certain component is found. Then they'll be crying.

It's still a double edged sword to be honest. It reduces the out of door cost for apple (which somehow doesn't trickle down to the consumer...take that reagan!) But on the other hand maintainence, troubleshooting and repairing these machines are prohibitively expensive. What is one to do? This is that out of the world though. But I am truly interested to see how battery life for this thing will be in 2-4 years. Because $3k is a large investment that should last at least that long.


That's another area of concern for me; Battery life and replacement. It's now glued in which means obviously not a user serviceable part. I can't see the battery being in a good state in 4 years. Really good Lithium Polymer batteries can survive with 80% or better capacity after 500 full charge cycles. Really good batteries. The Li-Ions that I use in my torches cost as much as £20 each and they're just single 3.7v cells, not entire packs. I also have racing and flight packs for my RC cars and heli's which cost upwards of £60. Most cheaper lithium cells won't survive with 50% capacity past 400 cycles. I know my laptop gets cycled once every couple of days... So the lifespan is potentially very short. What's the new procedure for replacing a MBP battery then? Send it to the repair centre to be forcibly removed by a tech using a polycarbonate shield and have a new one glued in its place?

You're right, they will be crying when they have to do a "x million unit" recall or mass repairs because of a component defect. I wonder if this new move means they've drastically increased their quality control and testing?*

*By quality control and testing, I mean at the component level. Manufacturers of good, branded, high end electronics take a sample of components from each batch and test them before using the rest of that batch in their product, whereas manufacturers of cheap, rubbish electronics just assemble their products with components lifted straight off a shelf.
Elton 14th June 2012, 21:14 Quote
I'm pretty sure glue can be removed. ;) That isn't difficult, the problem is removing it cleanly. But assembly must be cheap. On the other hand though, the consumer gets screwed over still. If there's a mass battery defect (hey it's happened with everything, even capacitors) and it's 2 years down the line, that won't be good. At all.

But this wasn't made to be repairable. Just like almost every other iproduct for a while, they were made to be disposable. And this one is just another in the long line. It's neither good nor bad for me, but for a tinkering madman and a generally not so wealthy person myself. The inability to maintain something is a large deterrent.
MrJay 14th June 2012, 21:22 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cei
2 weeks? Hardly. Apple keep replacement parts in stock in their stores for all current models, and the most used parts for old ones. Turn around for a full logic board replacement on a current model is usually 2-3 days. The only time I've heard of Apple's repair times going over a week is when they have to order the part in, and that's usually because it's an older machine.

SODIMM slots would add thickness, and in a machine where they are trying to shave every last bit off the dimensions, it counts. It's exactly same in the Air, and if you're that bothered about removable RAM/drives, Apple will always sell you a standard MBP, which is thicker for exactly that reason - user replaceable parts.

Not sure why you think the new MBP has a non-removable SSD. The iFixit teardown clearly shows it is a blade SSD, same as with the Air you stripped down recently. Okay, new pins for some reason, but it is still removable with ease.



I've done a RAM upgrade on a laptop in the past, but that's only because it came with an aneamic 2GB. The new MBP has 8GB minimum, and I can't see any OS needing more than that for the lifetime of the computer.

My bad on the SSD, totally miss read the article.

Me and a colleague have GSX access and believe me, replacement parts take an age!

I'm not going to buy one, i'm just saying form someone who has to work on them daily for our staff and deal with returns and repairs its only more ball ache : (
jrs77 15th June 2012, 00:12 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by r3loaded
The problem as I stated before is when the warranty runs out. Ok, the average laptop owner won't know how to fix it, but the local computer repair shop certainly does. Now that everything is soldered down and glued together, it becomes impossible for every the repair shop to fix it. The customer now has two options:

1) Motherboard replacement from Apple for hundreds of pounds.
2) Buy a new laptop that they don't particularly need for over a thousand pounds.

Then there's the whole ecological argument - it's incredibly wasteful that people will be forced into throwing away a perfectly good device made from expensive high quality parts just because it needed a £30 RAM replacement.

Well, that's why I was talking about business/corporate-customers, who get a 5 year AppleCare Protection Plan. Atleast that's my experience with Apple, when I buy stuff through my companies account.
fresnono 15th June 2012, 03:45 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by rollo
This site and trusted reviews is becoming like the apple news website

Trusted reviews even does rumours of apple

5 million pixels on a laptop isn't news to you?

How many pixels are you typing on now? 1? 2?

Anyways this is just linkbait hysteria, the screws are defeated by a 7 dollar screwdriver you can order online...
components on other apple devices like ipods and the rest have had tutorials and 3rd party replacement bits pop up over time, this is a market and it will be served. anyways at the high end the folks will just pay for someone else to repair it, whether apple or someone else, its not a big deal. whats the last time you changed the valves on your own car engine yourself anyways:P most people won't even touch the oil change.. never m ind anything else.
fresnono 15th June 2012, 03:49 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by Unicorn
That's another area of concern for me; Battery life and replacement. It's now glued in which means obviously not a user serviceable part. I can't see the battery being in a good state in 4 years. Really good Lithium Polymer batteries can survive with 80% or better capacity after 500 full charge cycles. Really good batteries. The Li-Ions that I use in my torches cost as much as £20 each and they're just single 3.7v cells, not entire packs. I also have racing and flight packs for my RC cars and heli's which cost upwards of £60. Most cheaper lithium cells won't survive with 50% capacity past 400 cycles. I know my laptop gets cycled once every couple of days... So the lifespan is potentially very short. What's the new procedure for replacing a MBP battery then? Send it to the repair centre to be forcibly removed by a tech using a polycarbonate shield and have a new one glued in its place?

You're right, they will be crying when they have to do a "x million unit" recall or mass repairs because of a component defect. I wonder if this new move means they've drastically increased their quality control and testing?*

*By quality control and testing, I mean at the component level. Manufacturers of good, branded, high end electronics take a sample of components from each batch and test them before using the rest of that batch in their product, whereas manufacturers of cheap, rubbish electronics just assemble their products with components lifted straight off a shelf.



http://www.apple.com/batteries/notebooks.html
they claim 1000 cycles.
maybe their batteries are better, they tend to use the cutting edge.

but yes many cheaper ones only last a few hundred.
HourBeforeDawn 15th June 2012, 05:32 Quote
Clearly people forgot about the parody gamer commercial about how with a pc you have to upgrade and blah blah but with apple its great you just throw it away and get another one =p
Horizon 15th June 2012, 07:35 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bakes
If you meant CPU or GPU sockets - well no laptop has those.

What a silly thing to say. For noteboooks, Intel uses Socket G2 (PGA988) and AMD uses Socket S1 (PGA638), you'll find them in a majority of laptops. GPU socket, right on that account no such thing.
1-0-1 15th June 2012, 07:41 Quote
Mixed feelings with this one. For starters how do we deal with faulty memory - might not happen that often but it can happen. I guess it would be a quick motherboard replacement if the laptop is still under warrenty?

Did they make any improvement with Bootcamp (and not I do not want to discuss the merits of OsX vs Windows). As far as I know Windows 8 should be able to easily handle the Retina resolution - problem here is the apps that are not written to display at high resolution which will look fugly.

The biggest grief is the lack of ethernet as the laptop is clearly aimed at professionals and most professional have to move heavy data which wireless is just not suited for. Nonetheless a minor point - overall love the dimensions, display and finally HDMI and USB 3. The rest is pretty much standard and a catch up play.

I am a professional but that price tag is just out of my pay grade - maybe I am not pro enough :(
Elton 15th June 2012, 08:57 Quote
This is just wasteful to be honest.
will_123 15th June 2012, 09:16 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gareth Halfacree
Really? *One* story on Apple - and a critical one at that - and suddenly it's "becoming like the Apple news site?" Really really?

LOL +1. When I seen this thread I knew there would be serious apple bashing going down. The completely non-upgradable machine is quite a let down on my part.

I have a MacBook and its a great machine but i have upgraded my RAM in the machine i have and the last MacBook I had. Don't think i shall be buying another at any point. Also they dont have a optical drive that is a big loss for somebody who uses a lot of live CD's and burns alot of DVDs. For my work i prefer to work on a *nix based machine so Macbooks are great for that. Think ill just be getting myself a Samsung and banging Linux on it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by fix-the-spade
Ah well, since Lion came along Apple hasn't been a viable option anyway, back to the PC and my horde of plug ins!


Also what's wrong with Lion? Given i did enjoy snow leopard better but why the dislike out of interest?

Bill
kenco_uk 15th June 2012, 09:42 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by Horizon
What a silly thing to say. For noteboooks, Intel uses Socket G2 (PGA988) and AMD uses Socket S1 (PGA638), you'll find them in a majority of laptops. GPU socket, right on that account no such thing.

You might want to research MXM - granted, the socket isn't on every laptop, but it is used for some of the higher end discrete laptop cards.

I'd go out on a limb and say that replacement parts will be available so any half-decent repair shop would be able to replace the logic board or whichever other part may fail (or anyone with the right set of tools and balls to do it). The control over ram is somewhat crippling though and a laptop of such high spec and cost you'd want to keep running for a good many years, so why the battery has been made difficult to replace is a (imo) crap decision.

Crikey, I replaced a screen on my MB without completely disassembling the whole unit from front to back (as you should do), by just taking the clutch cover off. It was incredibly tricky but it saved a lot of time. If you need to make a repair on pretty much anything and are not sure how to do it, someone will have already figured out how to do it and posted a youtube vid with instructions.
BentAnat 15th June 2012, 11:03 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mosquito
Wow BentAnat... a lot of generalizations there....

I have upgraded every single laptop that I've ever owned... first one I doubled the RAM, and had to replace a hard drive that died, and replaced a wireless card that fried, second one I upgraded the hard drive and RAM, netbook I upgraded the SSD and RAM, 2nd netbook I swapped HDD for SSD and upgraded the RAM...

"Most upgraders go as far as RAM/HDD and GPU" .... yes... and how many of those can you do with the new MB? None, so then... yeah, upgraders good luck with that. What's left beyond that anyway? PSU and optical drive? If you're replacing the motherboard... that's more of a rebuild than an upgrade in my book

I'm sure not everyone uses externals... I don't, never have, why? Because I could upgrade to whatever I need ;-) I've only got 2-3 friends that use externals, and I don't believe any of them bring them with them....

I must admit, though, that I am quite impressed by the display, and hope that it spurs much talk and upgrading for other manufacturers...


All this talk about not needing more than 16GB of RAM makes me think that no one uses them for any serious work... right now my work desktop has 16GB of RAM, and I'm pushing close to that being used... I don't even do photo editing and/or video editing, but I do have to run several VM's for work, and they use a lot of RAM... And true, no OS will likely require more than 8GB of RAM, but since when do people only boot up a computer and not use any applications?

I guess I just fit into the group of people who like the options for the "just in case" scenarios...

1) I said I don't know anyone in person. So not generalised there.
2) I said "most", and this holds water.
3) Everyone I know in person that has a PC and uses it for more than jsut occasionally surfing the web has an external. That includes my gran. The fact remains that using an external is easier and quicker than installing a new HDD. Most people are simply not tech savvy at all. Hell, the amount of hardware techs I've worked with that judge a GPU by how much RAM it has is astounding. This leads me to believe that for most people (and most of them are not on this forum), an external is a much more attractive option than opening a PC Case, nevermind digging out a screwdriver to open a laptop.
4) You're in the minority simply by virtue of knowing what a VM is already. Deal with it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Guinevere
I've upgraded my current MBP three times.

2GB > 8GB
160GB HD > 120GB SSD
Superdrive > 1TB HD

But I've now hit the limit of the machine. Not in the bits I could upgrade but in the CPU... it's just not fast enough for my needs. That'll teach me to skimp out on a CPU choice when buying a laptop!

Never again, this time I'm buying the top of the line and based on experience with another i7 machine I should be able to lower by build times from 20 seconds down to sub 4 seconds.

I have nothing against low spec machines that can handle a bit of upgrades (Like the normal MBP) but when buying a top of the line pro machine it doesn't matter. Just buy it with decent spec to start with.

Exactly.
I have in 3 years not had the need to upgrade my MBP. I don't work with 300+dpi print media much, and generally use it for mkaing websites in CODA/MAMP/Photoshop.
it was entry level back then (2.4GHz C2D, 2GB RAM, 160GB HDD), and it works just ducky for that.
Now with me planning to go more into print media, etc, the extra RAM, CPU horse power and the SSD make it attractive to upgrade.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cei
The point still stands, that your career is very much in the minority - even if everybody in your office uses VMs!

Why did you ignore my next paragraph about Apple's marketing towards "pro" users? I do know people who buy MBPs just for use as your average laptop, but they tend to buy the 13" models. My point towards pro users is that Apple's target market isn't people like yourself, utilising multiple VMs etc, but their more traditional "creative" audience, where 16GB of RAM is certainly more than enough.

That said, we can all agree that black box isn't for everybody - and if you don't want it, buy the other MBP design!
^^this.

16GB RAM and an SSD is plenty for normal photoshop usage.
For rendering, you probably shouldn't be using a laptop anyway, and for VMs your HDD requirements already are substantially higher than the normal users'.

On top of that, this is marketed at the super-trendy MBP user.
That screen by itself marks up the price so much that while it's really pretty, it's ultimately a bit of a foolish buy right now (mostly, at any rate).
at 2200USD, this thing is squarely pitched at the trendy e-peen conscious user rather than someone that simply needs a new and beefy laptop.

I for one am looking at replacing my 13" MBP with a new 13" MBA, specced up to 2.0GHz/8GB/256GB SSD. It's portable, and cheap enough that I can buy anew home theater system for the price difference between that and the MBP/retina monster.
Also, it packs enough of a punch that I'll probably be happy with it for the next 2 or 3 years with the work I am doing.
GoodBytes 15th June 2012, 12:31 Quote
Here in Canada, Apple is warranty is really good.
You go to the Apple store with your laptop that has a problem, and they just take it, and give you a new system right away. Not a refurbished, new. Your data isn't transfer though, but people are happy, and it makes the support desk far more empty, despite being packed with people daily. So it makes the consumer feel that it's better system already.

The problem with a lock down system, is that if you break the system accidentally. Like spill a bit of liquid on the keyboard, where it doesn't break the system cause it's a few drop, and just breaks the keyboard instead, because it prevents or always does contact, with the two circuit sheet as you type. Or if you keep the system for longer than 3 years (I keep my PC laptop for 5 years easy), and something happens, well too bad. Also, if you plan to sale your used laptop, well you can't swap the drive, so data might be recoverable. And other similar issues, and of course no updatability, or repearibility. But that's ok. Tim Cook said himself on stage at an interview. That Apple costumers will buy the new latest Apple product even if it has issues. They complain about it, but still buy it.
Quote:

Did I see the iPad and iPhone? No. What I saw was this: Apple was the only technology company that I knew of, including the one I was currently at, that when a customer got mad at a company, they'd continue to buy. If people got mad at Compaq, they'd buy Dell. If you were mad at Dell, you'd buy IBM. But an Apple customer was a unique breed; there's this emotion that you just don't see in technology in general. You could see it and feel it at Apple. When I looked at the balance sheet of the company, I thought I could do something in turning around a great American company.
source: http://www.engadget.com/2012/05/29/tim-cook-why-i-joined-apple-/
Guinevere 15th June 2012, 13:10 Quote
I think I've worked out how Apple will remove the batteries... and I bet it's really easy if you have the gear.

Look at this pic: http://guide-images.ifixit.net/igi/ALDqXyUNeJTWCycT.medium

They've glued the cells directly to the alu in the unibody. Heat up the metal from the other side, soften the glue and the cells should ease out easy enough.

I can imagine a line of foxconn workers in Brazil being able to strip down a RMBP and have new cells in within a couple of minutes.

(They should have come with a better system though. I've replaced iPhone batteries and even that isn't fun!)
kenco_uk 15th June 2012, 13:29 Quote
Not too hot though, eh? Isn't it 100c for LiPol before it asplodes everywhere?
GoodBytes 15th June 2012, 13:33 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by Guinevere

(They should have come with a better system though. I've replaced iPhone batteries and even that isn't fun!)
Next up, they'll use epoxy glue. MacBook Pro's where specifically engineered to be like this. It's not for convenience, doesn't cut product cost, doesn't reduce height of the system, despite what is being said by Apple (excuses). They are specifically made to be like this on purpose. If my laptop, 4 year old, I can pull out the motherboard out with a few screws (6 if I recall correctly). Where 1 screw will remove the entire bottom of the system, for full internal access. Engineers can do anything they want. That's their job.. Do the impossible, solve problems out of nothing. That's engineering, and that is why they are paid so much.
rollo 15th June 2012, 14:03 Quote
Most people could not fix a laptop anyway even upgrading its ram is beyond 99% of users who buy the product

Quick question though

There is 4 slots for ram? If so only 2 are surely filled couldn't you in theory stick in the extra 2 sticks ?
Guinevere 15th June 2012, 14:08 Quote
[QUOTE=GoodBytes]
Quote:
Originally Posted by Guinevere
] doesn't cut product cost, doesn't reduce height of the system, despite what is being said by Apple (excuses). They are specifically made to be like this on purpose.

Sorry, I think you're wrong.

They currently have an open space for four cells, with the possibility of future revisions having a different arrangement without requiring a retooling of the unibody. During assembly they can peel back the 3M tape and stick cells in, so screw alignment to worry about, no risk of screws getting lost / coming loose and piercing a cell or rattling around in those new asymmetrical fans.

I'm not saying they should have glued the cells in (not that I really care) but I am saying that of course it's easier to attach an unprotected cell with double sided tape than it is to design in and assemble a screw or clip based mounting mechanism. And you can get a thinner and lighter laptop if you use more fragile cells that get their protection from the alu they're glued to rather than an protection you have to build into them to support your clipping mechanism and resulting in-and-out behaviour that 'may' occur.

Glue is easier, cheaper and for Apple... more flexible.

It also has safety benefits as battery lock in removes the risk of people carrying spare cells around in their pockets and setting their underpants on fire.
Guinevere 15th June 2012, 14:10 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by rollo
There is 4 slots for ram? If so only 2 are surely filled couldn't you in theory stick in the extra 2 sticks ?

No slots, it's all soldered in. The non retina MBPs are different though and comparable to the older models by using SODIMMS.

The RMBP is like the Air, RAM is a "choose wisely" BTO option. Either get the 16GB upgrade now or forever hold your piece.

Personally I think they should have put RAM on a daughter board like they have done with flash, but I'd imagine given they're now using much faster RAM that would have some technical issues.
Unicorn 15th June 2012, 14:28 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by Guinevere
forever hold your piece.

This is one of those times that poor spelling or grammar can make a sentence or phrase sound like something completely different to what you actually meant. Rather than letting you continue to spell it so that it sounds like a naughty double entendre, I'll correct you. It's actually "Forever hold your peace" ;)

I'm still not convinced about this. Yes, if I was going to buy a new RMBP I would be more inclined to go for a higher spec one because of the inability to upgrade them, but the fact that I find it moronic that Apple have decided to start manufacturing non-upgradeable MBPs in itself means that I won't be buying one now. If and when I do ever buy one, it will more than likely be a late 2011 - early 2012 model which I can still put third party SODIMMs and a larger SSD in after purchase.

Despite what it will mean for their sales (let's face it, Apple are never going to release a product that won't sell. It's just not going to happen) every single tech website on the planet has an article about how the new RMBP is not upgradeable, not repairable and not even as recyclable as the old version. This article from Wired has an in depth look at the new machines "shortcomings". Not an article about how amazing and advanced their shiny new product is, oh no! An article about what's controversial about its design. I think this is a huge mistake for Apple. I haven't seen as much bad press about a new Apple product since the first generation iPad was released with a body that was 1/3 empty and had more than enough space for a camera.
kenco_uk 15th June 2012, 15:44 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by Unicorn
Despite what it will mean for their sales (let's face it, Apple are never going to release a product that won't sell. It's just not going to happpen) every single tech website on the planet has an article about how the new RMBP is not upgradeable, not repairable and not even as recyclable as the old version.

The screen does look quite lovely, but the premium on it is incredible. The perceived value can be called into question with saved manufacturing costs not having much bearing on the end cost, i.e. the so-called savings haven't exactly been passed down to the consumer level.

An iPad was £429 on release day. How much is an iPad3 with it's A5X and Retina screen? Not much difference, eh?
amnesia182 15th June 2012, 16:04 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by Unicorn
Quote:
Originally Posted by Guinevere
forever hold your piece.

This is one of those times that poor spelling or grammar can make a sentence or phrase sound like something completely different to what you actually meant. Rather than letting you continue to spell it so that it sounds like a naughty double entendre, I'll correct you. It's actually "Forever hold your peace" ;)

Sorry, just had to register to point out that it's different FROM, not different TO :-p
If you're going to rip someone else's grammar apart...


Anyway, back on topic... I applaud Apple for bringing out a cutting edge machine with an awesome screen resolution, but their habit of charging £25 for (cheap) adapters because they omit standard sockets like ethernet or firewire ports really gets my goat.

Apparently, the new model has a different power connector too, so you can't even re-use an old one as a spare if you use your laptop in multiple places.

How long will 512Gb storage last when we're all watching QFHD videos to make use of the 5 million pixel screen ?
Mosquito 15th June 2012, 17:18 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cei
Why did you ignore my next paragraph about Apple's marketing towards "pro" users?

probably because I spent like 30 minutes typing that up between working on things
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cei
That said, we can all agree that black box isn't for everybody - and if you don't want it, buy the other MBP design!

Fair enough, I guess I have to stop thinking of Macs as a general computer company and keep reminding myself that they're more specialized and directed toward a specific market, one that I'm not in.
azrael- 15th June 2012, 17:38 Quote
As has been mentioned previously "what if one or more of those hardwired components fail...?"

This is typically Apple ...or at least Apple, since Jobs took back the reins. And for some reason the Apple apologetics keep finding reasons why these "lock-in" moves are actually great for the consumer.
Unicorn 15th June 2012, 18:03 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by kenco_uk
The screen does look quite lovely, but the premium on it is incredible. The perceived value can be called into question with saved manufacturing costs not having much bearing on the end cost, i.e. the so-called savings haven't exactly been passed down to the consumer level.

An iPad was £429 on release day. How much is an iPad3 with it's A5X and Retina screen? Not much difference, eh?

I know, and the thing is that component prices are starting to move back to normal again (only just, mind). They won't pass any lower manufacturing cost down to the consumer, it's not their style. And let's face it, Apple don't need to be making any more money. They want to and they will, but if their profits stayed exactly the same for the next 5 years as they were in '11-'12 they'd still swallow up each and every one of their rivals in profits and sales. I know it's a stupid and redundant argument, but they're starting to get too greedy for their own good.

The more and more I think about this, the more I can see nothing but greed behind it. I personally don't think it's about the more advanced technology in this one. The retina display, you say? That's an excuse. We knew that was coming to MBP this quarter. It's the perfect catch 22 for their customers - Pay more for overpriced over the counter upgrades with the machine (in other words a high spec RMBP) to get the "new thing" (retina display) or get a "plain old" standard MBP that they can upgrade in the future and potentially service and repair for less. In a lot of ways it's sneaky and underhanded. As Wired said, Apple have "split the baby" with two versions of the MBP now on the market - something Steve as much said they were avoiding with the introduction of the unibody aluminium MBPs at release.

I just don't like the fact that with the Air, they tested the waters of no user upgradeability, with the iPad and iPhone 4 they tested the waters of expensive repair parts with glued, laminated display assemblies and they're now testing the water with two MBPs. You do realize that if the RMBP outsells the standard MBP in the next 12 months, all Apple notebooks are likely to follow suit? Next year could see the elimination of the current unibody MBP from their product line.
Horizon 15th June 2012, 18:15 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by kenco_uk
Quote:
Originally Posted by Horizon
What a silly thing to say. For noteboooks, Intel uses Socket G2 (PGA988) and AMD uses Socket S1 (PGA638), you'll find them in a majority of laptops. GPU socket, right on that account no such thing.

You might want to research MXM - granted, the socket isn't on every laptop, but it is used for some of the higher end discrete laptop cards.

I know about MXM very well and it's not a socket, I have a 5870M sitting right here on my desk. An MXM is a interface similar to PCI in which a MXM Graphics module laptop equivalent of a graphics card.
Unicorn 15th June 2012, 20:04 Quote
Horizon, do you often argue with your shadow?

Wait, is that black cat white?!

NO. WAY! The sky is green

http://thewallmachine.com/files/1326772617.png

Newsflash: a PCI slot is a socket

Further reading: I'm sick of hearing all this slot vs socket crap. It's a pile of bull****. PCI and RAM "slots" are sockets. They are physical housings for supporting a daughterboard or expansion card with electrical contacts inside them. SOCKET. I know there used to be CPU "slots" but it's time the industry woke up and called a spade a spade. A socket and a slot serve the same purpose and are two versions of the same thing. If anything, a slot is another type of socket, but it's still a socket.
Horizon 15th June 2012, 20:13 Quote
one connects a board to another board, the other connects a chip to a board, just sayin.
Bakes 15th June 2012, 22:28 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by Horizon
What a silly thing to say. For noteboooks, Intel uses Socket G2 (PGA988) and AMD uses Socket S1 (PGA638), you'll find them in a majority of laptops. GPU socket, right on that account no such thing.

Fair point. I guess I just assumed they'd gone away at some point in the last five years. Nevertheless, I think you can probably see how processor upgrades might not be so desired for laptops - especially since the processor in my MBP currently sells on Scan for £430 - it's just not that cost effective. When processors are basically unique for each model, keeping them for repairs could (with something like the macbook retina) quickly become as costly as just stocking logic boards for common models, especially since with the logic board, you could fix the whole thing by changing one part and let Apple worry about the rest.
Nexxo 15th June 2012, 23:25 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by amnesia182
Sorry, just had to register to point out that it's different FROM, not different TO :-p
If you're going to rip someone else's grammar apart...

Both versions are acceptable. Different from tends to be used in American English. Different to tends to be preferred in classical English. Your smartass-fu is weak. :)
kenco_uk 15th June 2012, 23:45 Quote
It makes sense to solder the cpu to the motherboard, I can see the sense in that. It ensures the notebook operates within tolerances. The heatpipe and cooling fan array are designed as such to keep whichever cpu within operating temperatures. Yes, yes, that's all fair enough.

It seems daft to cut off your nose to spite your foot though. Removing the ability to sell ram and/or ssd upgrades, but potentially costing a bucketload if there just so happens to be a faulty batch of ram modules, that get past stringent QC checks, which are soldered to the logic board. I assume from the stripdown that the ssd is proprietary? It looks to use a msata socket/slot (pick whichever, horizon lol).

To look at the innards, well.. it is a work of art make no mistake, an engineering feat to squish all that into such a confined space. Apple do know how to make something look nice and desirable and they certainly have the marketing prowess. They'll have to work this one bloody hard though.
GoodBytes 16th June 2012, 00:06 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by kenco_uk

To look at the innards, well.. it is a work of art make no mistake, an engineering feat to squish all that into such a confined space. Apple do know how to make something look nice and desirable and they certainly have the marketing prowess. They'll have to work this one bloody hard though.

Apple will soon have competition. A small company in the U.S called Vizio, which started making cheap TV's, and soon after affordable TV with amazing features that worked very well., and well reviewed. They got in the market with the help of Best Buy and Walmart. They are now, since CES that just past, making high end laptop a-la-Apple. Compete with design, attention to details everywhere, 0 junk (Microsoft Signature Windows 7 (and later 8) included (that means Windows, drivers with no bloat, Live Essential, Microsoft Security Essential. That is all), also have a good touchpad, did I mention Nvidia Kepler GPU? Well they are equipped with one. Good keyboard, engineering in the U.S, good screen with acceptable resolution, Oh and no stickers, anywhere. Even the power adapter plug looks nice. Not bad for a first laptop from a company.

Check it out, there is even a nice interview video:
http://www.theverge.com/2012/6/15/3076519/vizio-reboot-pc-american-hdtv-success-do-it-again

I hope they succeed. Because that we need competition and innovation on the PC market, and I think the current PC manufactures are acting like if Apple is "not a PC" so it doesn't concern them.
Guinevere 16th June 2012, 10:23 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by Unicorn
Quote:
Originally Posted by Guinevere
forever hold your piece.
This is one of those times that poor spelling or grammar can make a sentence or phrase sound like something completely different to what you actually meant.

You are under the incorrect impression that I wasn't aware of this word transposition.
Guinevere 16th June 2012, 10:37 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by GoodBytes
Apple will soon have competition. A small company in the U.S called Vizio

I've read the reports on them, and they do look good. It will be interesting to see how they fair in being able to obtain parts and in distribution - two areas where Apple have the market locked up pretty tight.

The designs (Desktop trackpad etc) are definitely inspired by Apple without being a 1:1 (Samsung style) copy... may 0.9:1 or something...

And they're doing the right thing by going Windows Signature rather than try and make another few $ on each sale by allowing 3rd party bloatware trials to trash the experience.

The maximum specs are a bit lower than Apple though. Slower CPUs. Slower GPUs. No SSD. Less RAM. Shorter battery life. Poorer connectivity. Lower res screen (But still IPS). Lower spec speakers

But...

I'd wager they'll be half the price and for someone who doesn't 100% need to run OSX they'll likely be good enough with maybe the potential to do DIY RAM/SSD upgrade... nice just not the very very best.
Gunsmith 16th June 2012, 10:43 Quote
Guinevere 16th June 2012, 10:45 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by amnesia182
Apparently, the new model has a different power connector too, so you can't even re-use an old one as a spare if you use your laptop in multiple places.

Not without spending £9.

http://bit.ly/Mei80u

Well done to Apple for being bold enough to improve on something even if doing so is a very slight inconvenience to a few people.

The new connection means the machine can be slimmer and the size change means the socket cant grab hold of a USB cable like the old one could (never had that problem myself - but was apparently an issue for some).

Slimmer = Better (And more marketable!)

The needs of the many... outweigh the needs of the few
Nexxo 16th June 2012, 11:01 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by GoodBytes
Apple will soon have competition. A small company in the U.S called Vizio, which started making cheap TV's, and soon after affordable TV with amazing features that worked very well., and well reviewed. They got in the market with the help of Best Buy and Walmart. They are now, since CES that just past, making high end laptop a-la-Apple. Compete with design, attention to details everywhere, 0 junk (Microsoft Signature Windows 7 (and later 8) included (that means Windows, drivers with no bloat, Live Essential, Microsoft Security Essential. That is all), also have a good touchpad, did I mention Nvidia Kepler GPU? Well they are equipped with one. Good keyboard, engineering in the U.S, good screen with acceptable resolution, Oh and no stickers, anywhere. Even the power adapter plug looks nice. Not bad for a first laptop from a company.

Check it out, there is even a nice interview video:
http://www.theverge.com/2012/6/15/3076519/vizio-reboot-pc-american-hdtv-success-do-it-again

I hope they succeed. Because that we need competition and innovation on the PC market, and I think the current PC manufactures are acting like if Apple is "not a PC" so it doesn't concern them.

I think it's the most exciting thing to happen in the computer industry right now. But it wouldn't have happened if it weren't for Apple. Apple turned computers from office tools into lifestyle products (like Sony turned game consoles from teenage toys into lifestyle products). We wouldn't have those nice perforated aluminium Lian-Li cases without the Mac Pro cheese grater. We wouldn't have Android phones and tablets without Apple iPhone and iPad. We wouldn't have Microsoft upping the ante with Windows Phone 7 and Windows 8 without OSX and iOS.

I think it is rather ironic to see Vizio extolling the virtues of the same design principles on their laptop that Apple gets criticised for on theirs: no exchangeable batteries; proprietary non-expandable components. Apple is dead; long live the new Apple.
Harlequin 16th June 2012, 11:09 Quote
no

apple changed the power connector for the same reason gas safe change the flue regs - because they can.

nothing about improving , nothing about making it better its because they can ; and to annoy the 3rd party chinese part makers.


you really do defend apple alot - do you work for them?
Nexxo 16th June 2012, 11:15 Quote
That's just a veiled way of saying that Guinevere is lying or prejudiced. Hardly a rational argument, Harlequin.
azrael- 16th June 2012, 11:54 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nexxo
I think it's the most exciting thing to happen in the computer industry right now. But it wouldn't have happened if it weren't for Apple. Apple turned computers from office tools into lifestyle products (like Sony turned game consoles from teenage toys into lifestyle products). We wouldn't have those nice perforated aluminium Lian-Li cases without the Mac Pro cheese grater. We wouldn't have Android phones and tablets without Apple iPhone and iPad. We wouldn't have Microsoft upping the ante with Windows Phone 7 and Windows 8 without OSX and iOS.

I think it is rather ironic to see Vizio extolling the virtues of the same design principles on their laptop that Apple gets criticised for on theirs: no exchangeable batteries; proprietary non-expandable components. Apple is dead; long live the new Apple.
I beg to differ. Lian Li made nice aluminium cases _long_ before Apple pushed out its Mac Pro line. Also, form over function is just bad, but apparently the world is made up of mostly superficial people. Now, function _with_ form is another thing entirely.

Oh, and Vizio doing an "Apple" still doesn't make it cool.
1ad7 16th June 2012, 12:23 Quote
First Ive replaced tons of parts inside apple laptops working as a tech the last few years. There is no advantage to size that can be had by creating a non removable battery. They didnt make it impossible to open the thing they GLUED it inside... So when you battery goes out, in 1 or 2 years you can toss the whole computer.... right.
Nexxo 16th June 2012, 12:25 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by azrael-
I beg to differ. Lian Li made nice aluminium cases _long_ before Apple pushed out its Mac Pro line. Also, form over function is just bad, but apparently the world is made up of mostly superficial people. Now, function _with_ form is another thing entirely.

Oh, and Vizio doing an "Apple" still doesn't make it cool.

But Lian-Li made its most successful range of PC-V1200 cases as a result of the Apple Pro.

If you do it right, form and function are the same thing. Apple has got closer to that ideal than other PC manufacturers. People are not shallow; they are just not geeks who will compromise on form and ergonomics to get more raw function.

Quote:
Originally Posted by 1ad7
First Ive replaced tons of parts inside apple laptops working as a tech the last few years. There is no advantage to size that can be had by creating a non removable battery. They didnt make it impossible to open the thing they GLUED it inside... So when you battery goes out, in 1 or 2 years you can toss the whole computer.... right.

Or, given that most ordinary users are not geeks who feel comfortable with opening up their hardware and messing about with the innards, they take their computer to the nearest Apple store and get the battery swapped by an engineer for a small premium.

By the way: two years?!? My wife's first gen MacBook Air is still going strong. Even 1st generation iPhones still charge without a hitch. Good quality batteries easily last for five years or more.
Harlequin 16th June 2012, 12:55 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nexxo
That's just a veiled way of saying that Guinevere is lying or prejudiced. Hardly a rational argument, Harlequin.

what? do you have anything other than your opnion to support your position? or will i get another pm from a mod when they read something they disagree with.....
Valinor 16th June 2012, 13:00 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nexxo
That's just a veiled way of saying that Guinevere is lying or prejudiced. Hardly a rational argument, Harlequin.

That doesn't make his argument incorrect, though.
Nexxo 16th June 2012, 13:06 Quote
Logically, calling someone prejudiced is a challenge of their credibility, not their argument. It is a veiled ad hominem attack, which has no place in a rational debate.
Harlequin 16th June 2012, 13:16 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nexxo
Logically, calling someone prejudiced is a challenge of their credibility, not their argument. It's a veiled ad hominem attack. A rational debate has no place for those.

totally disagree.

case point number 1
Quote:
Well done to Apple for being bold enough to improve on something even if doing so is a very slight inconvenience to a few people.

The new connection means the machine can be slimmer and the size change means the socket cant grab hold of a USB cable like the old one could (never had that problem myself - but was apparently an issue for some).


APPLE changed the design because they could , not because it makes any difference to what i can do - it`s a huge inconvenience to anyone who has a previous product , and now cant use any extra and cheaper componenets they have.

and the `grab hold of a usb cable` - only a hand ful of users had that issue - so again APPLE changed it because they could and to sell vastly overpriced addons till the east catches up.


oh and wait till APPLE try and sue every ultrabook maker from the last 10 years for bvrach of patent...forget the wedge shape has allready been used by sony since 2004....
Nexxo 16th June 2012, 13:22 Quote
You are disagreeing with Guinevere's argument there, and positing a counter argument. No problem with that (even though it could be argued that your argument is as insubstantiated and subjective as you argue hers of being).

But accusing Guinevere of being prejudiced ("You must be working for Apple") is not a challenge of her argument, but of her credibility. See the difference?
Harlequin 16th June 2012, 13:24 Quote
it was a question hence they question mark at the end - i didnt type what you said....
hyperion 16th June 2012, 13:29 Quote
I think that pc users are more offended than apple users by this change. Reminds me of the good ol' days (not really) of "ati vs nvidia" and "intel vs amd" threads.
Nexxo 16th June 2012, 13:30 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by Harlequin
it was a question hence they question mark at the end - i didnt type what you said....

Come on, son. Questions can be accusatory.
cookie! nom nom 16th June 2012, 13:36 Quote
seem silly to me, but its apple, they like to be special
Unicorn 16th June 2012, 13:47 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by Guinevere
You are under the incorrect impression that I wasn't aware of this word transposition.

Whether you're aware of it or not, I don't really understand why you used the incorrect word. Were you trying to be funny :?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Harlequin
no

apple changed the power connector for the same reason gas safe change the flue regs - because they can.

nothing about improving , nothing about making it better its because they can ; and to annoy the 3rd party chinese part makers.


you really do defend apple alot - do you work for them?

First of all, anybody can defend Apple if they want to, you're now arguing with your shadow over nothing. I'm fairly sure that Guinevere is a software developer/coder and doesn't work for Apple. Even if that was the case, everyone is allowed to express an opinion. It's your opinion that Apple changed the power connector on the new RMBP for no reason. It's my opinion that you're wrong. The room for improvement on the power connector for MBPs has been discussed on technology sites for quite a while and I welcome the change. It's quite likely that older power adaptors for "regular" MBPs have a different rating than the new model anyway, and that the new one has a new circuit design which improves charging efficiency and consumes less power. Not everything Apple does is pure evil and for the detriment of their customers wallets you know. It's entirely possible that Apple redesigned the new RMBP chargers with reduced power usage and to work better with their latest revision of Li-Poly batteries... And even if they did just change it to piss off third party Chinese part makers - so what? They have every right to, those third party manufacturers pollute the world with cheap, rubbish parts for expensive, well designed devices and then try to sell them as "OEM originals".

In closing, alot is not a word. It's never been a word, it's not a word now and it's never, ever going to be a word.
Quote:
Originally Posted by azrael-
Oh, and Vizio doing an "Apple" still doesn't make it cool.

Vizio aren't "doing an Apple", they're designing and building their own line of computers. Nobody batted an eyelid when HP released the Envy even though they were clearly based on the MBP, but Vizio have obviously done a lot of research and put a lot of work into their products and I can see them doing very well in the future. Your comment is full of spite for a company that you probably know nothing about. Why is that?
Quote:
Originally Posted by hyperion
I think that pc users are more offended than apple users by this change. Reminds me of the good ol' days (not really) of "ati vs nvidia" and "intel vs amd" threads.

That's very easy to say on a forum made up of a majority of Windows box users. There's another one I'm tired of hearing: Mac vs PC. Guess what, an Apple computer is a Personal Computer as well. I'd love to get my hands on the person who came up with "Mac vs PC"


----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


On another very general note, can everyone please learn how to quote messages?! If you don't know how to do it properly, don't bother trying to do it at all until you learn. How is anyone supposed to understand what you are posting when they have to sit and figure out what you said and what the person you tried to quote said?
Harlequin 16th June 2012, 13:48 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nexxo
Come on, son. Questions can be accusatory.

and statements can be patronising with implications - how was it, when the electricity was invented `grandfather`.....

edit:

its called proprietary - apple want to use `connectors` and systems of their own design and for their own purpose, so they can change what they want on the product when they want - ofc it just annoys those who copy them ;) - or apple copy themselves (ala samsung)
azrael- 16th June 2012, 14:44 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by Unicorn

<snip>
Vizio aren't "doing an Apple", they're designing and building their own line of computers. Nobody batted an eyelid when HP released the Envy even though they were clearly based on the MBP, but Vizio have obviously done a lot of research and put a lot of work into their products and I can see them doing very well in the future. Your comment is full of spite for a company that you probably know nothing about. Why is that?
<snip>
I was referring to the "no user-replacable parts" scenario. Which isn't cool, whether your company is Apple or Vizio, and it was in (preemptive?) response to the inevitable "blame Apple for being Apple" retort. I should perhaps have been clearer on that part.
Guinevere 16th June 2012, 15:03 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by Harlequin
you really do defend apple alot - do you work for them?

No, I do not work for Apple. I daily use Apple gear because I have chosen to develop iOS software. If I could use Windows I would have done... but I'm glad I've now switched 100% to OSX... my experiences with things on the Mac side have been nothing but positive if you ignore all the haters you encounter.

It's good to see there being quite a few people here on BT who see Apple's limitations and yet can appreciate what they have done for the industry... not least of which is providing people with a genuine alternative to windows.

But the haters.... they're frickin' worse than the apple crazed loons whooping along to the keynotes (I'd slap every one if I could)

I'm done with this thread.
Nexxo 16th June 2012, 15:24 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by Harlequin
and statements can be patronising with implications - how was it, when the electricity was invented `grandfather`.....

I think it's a passing fad. :p
Harlequin 16th June 2012, 16:06 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by Guinevere
No, I do not work for Apple. I daily use Apple gear because I have chosen to develop iOS software. If I could use Windows I would have done... but I'm glad I've now switched 100% to OSX... my experiences with things on the Mac side have been nothing but positive if you ignore all the haters you encounter.

It's good to see there being quite a few people here on BT who see Apple's limitations and yet can appreciate what they have done for the industry... not least of which is providing people with a genuine alternative to windows.

But the haters.... they're frickin' worse than the apple crazed loons whooping along to the keynotes (I'd slap every one if I could)

I'm done with this thread.

no reason to be done with anything - when apple is mentioned ofc there hot debate on all sides!

personally i disagree with the way apple go about things - they took linux migrated to it within their own ecosystem , then shut it off to the rest of the world - the same with pc hardware and software , look at the laissez faire attitude of android devs vs apple devs, who im sure are the same , but then you come up against apple and thats when it stops.

another point - i bought an app for my galaxy s , it didnt quite work the way i wanted it to - so i contacted the dev and after a chat he then went back and added what i wanted (or the functionality) - it was then mailed to me and did exactly what i wanted - all within a week. its now on the app store (smart tools is the name btw) in the version i had made for me.
GoodBytes 16th June 2012, 16:26 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by azrael-
I was referring to the "no user-replacable parts" scenario. Which isn't cool, whether your company is Apple or Vizio, and it was in (preemptive?) response to the inevitable "blame Apple for being Apple" retort. I should perhaps have been clearer on that part.

Well we don't know about Vizio. While for sure the GPU and CPU are soldered on. (this isn't new, beside you usually can't find any upgrade for the CPU, or the BIOS won't support it, and the performance increase is usually not worth it). The SSD and RAM are probably not. And probably no special screws, either. We have to see.

What I hope it does, is simply wake up the PC OEM's, and start making nicer systems (in all aspects, meaning screen, battery life and specs too, good touchpad, and looks half descent, 0 junk, OS disk). That is all. I don't care about thinnest and MacBook Pro looks. So far, beside Vizio, the only laptop manufacture that does a effort is ASUS.

While Vizio systems aren't the best of the best, or same specs as the MacBook Pro, as mentioned, it is not bad for a first try, and as they are aiming at affordable for what you get price, I think they'll get plenty more sales than Razor, that's for sure. And if they can pull it off, then expect over the time to expand with high end model.. and who knows, maybe even something like Dell where you can customize your system from their website.
Nexxo 16th June 2012, 16:36 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by Harlequin
no reason to be done with anything - when apple is mentioned ofc there hot debate on all sides!

personally i disagree with the way apple go about things - they took linux migrated to it within their own ecosystem , then shut it off to the rest of the world - the same with pc hardware and software , look at the laissez faire attitude of android devs vs apple devs, who im sure are the same , but then you come up against apple and thats when it stops.

another point - i bought an app for my galaxy s , it didnt quite work the way i wanted it to - so i contacted the dev and after a chat he then went back and added what i wanted (or the functionality) - it was then mailed to me and did exactly what i wanted - all within a week. its now on the app store (smart tools is the name btw) in the version i had made for me.

None of that is compelling to me. Apple's OSX is based on a derivative of UNIX (not Linux), called NeXT. Given that this was Job's baby before he rejoined Apple, he was entitled to use it as he saw fit.

Google has anything but a "laissez faire" attitude. Much of their "open source" code is not open. And many manufacturers of Android devices lock them down so upgrading to the next version of Android OS is a nightmare. As for the devs: I once emailed a suggestion to an iPhone app developer and within a week he released an update with the feature implemented.
jrs77 16th June 2012, 17:30 Quote
To clear some things up, as there's alot of misinformation floating around.

First of all... OSX is based on UNIX. UNIX was introduced in 1969 by Bell and none of the current end-user OS besides OSX is based on UNIX. Linux is a totally different thing and has basically nothing to do with UNIX. Linux was developed without using UNIX as the starting-point. Same with Windows (MS-DOS).

More importantly. MacOS is the reason why the GUI and the mouse gained rapid interest in the public allthough it was not the first OS with a GUI. The people who invented the GUI were working at XEROX in 1974. However these people then teamed up with Apple later on to develop MacOS, so we'll just call Apple the first to release a PC with a GUI as XEROX was not officially selling computers to any endusers.

Tablet PCs and smartphones... yes these also existed before Apple intorduced them ofc, but it was Apple again that made the bigger public interested in these kind of products, as noone was marketing these before or selling them in large quantities.

We can discuss the question if Apple is user-friendly or not, and we can discuss the question if Apple coud improve their products amking them more user-friendly, but this question is totally missing the point, that the vast majority of users are not interested in modifying their systems, replacing hardware etc. Endusers normally bua a product and use it the way it is.

bit-tech readers, aswell as readers of other tech-sites are the absolute minority, only making up for some 5-10% of the endusers. So Apple couldn't be interested any less in people like us, who like to have options to modify and fiddle around with their hardware or software.

Last but not least, to those allways coming up with google and Android... google is just the same as Apple, but they make you believe that they're more open-minded.
The difference is, that google is licensing Android to manufacturers, but it's the manufacturers then who put limits on their products in man cases. It's the same as iOS basically in the end.
When google decides to stop licensing Android to manufacturers and try to sell their own products - which is to believed happening in the future with the aqcuisition of Motorola - then we'll see how open minded google will be with Android.
Just look at all the recent patent-wars going on... google/Motorola are going to the court next week against Apple, because of a standard-relevant patent they're not licensing to Apple for a reasonable low fee.

People are fast to bash Apple, allthough the other players in the market are just the same. It sickens me to see people being that one-sided and narrow-minded. Just don't buy the stuff from Apple, if you think there's superior products, but don't come in here constantly and try to spread the fairy tale of Apple being worse then other manufacturers when there's tons of evidence around to proove that it's just that... a fairy-tale.


So, have fun bashig Apple even more, but you'll look like a fool to people, who are actually open-minded and free of predjudices.
hyperion 16th June 2012, 17:37 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by Unicorn

That's very easy to say on a forum made up of a majority of Windows box users.
True, but I was just saying I didn't notice any apple users being outraged at this. I was expecting apple users to be like "how could they do this to me?" and windows users to go "Ha ha!" but it's more like the opposite.
Quote:
There's another one I'm tired of hearing: Mac vs PC. Guess what, an Apple computer is a Personal Computer as well. I'd love to get my hands on the person who came up with "Mac vs PC"
Everyone's probably seen it already anyway but...njos57IJf-0
knutjb 16th June 2012, 18:08 Quote
This is a two edge sword. Mechanically what they've done makes sense. The fewer connectors, the better secured, implies more reliable. The problem is this is a very expensive throw away machine in a couple years. The hardware is still fast but parts that break are either too expensive to replace or just not available.

Probably the most effective planned obsolescence I've seen in a while.

I am not an Apple fan but I can see the logic of their methods in this machine. If they do this to every machine I would have no problem slamming them further. I guess that's why I stick with PC. I like doing what I want to what I own. I think Apple hardware is just like a software license, you can use it but you don't really own it.
jrs77 16th June 2012, 18:08 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by hyperion
True, but I was just saying I didn't notice any apple users being outraged at this. I was expecting apple users to be like "how could they do this to me?" and windows users to go "Ha ha!" but it's more like the opposite.

That's because you don't get Apple-users. People who buy products from Apple aren't interested in tech and modifying it etc. People who buy and use products from Apple just buy and use them without questioning aslong as the product works as intended, which it'll do most of the time.
jrs77 16th June 2012, 18:19 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by knutjb
I am not an Apple fan but I can see the logic of their methods in this machine. If they do this to every machine I would have no problem slamming them further. I guess that's why I stick with PC. I like doing what I want to what I own. I think Apple hardware is just like a software license, you can use it but you don't really own it.

Hint: the lifecycle of hardware is only 2-5 years

So if the PC works for 2-5 years without breaking it's perfectly fine. Especially for companies or self-employed people, as they get extended warranties for very little money -> Apple Care Protection Plan and in addition they can offset the hardware against tax every 3 years.
Elton 16th June 2012, 22:04 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by jrs77
Hint: the lifecycle of hardware is only 2-5 years

So if the PC works for 2-5 years without breaking it's perfectly fine. Especially for companies or self-employed people, as they get extended warranties for very little money -> Apple Care Protection Plan and in addition they can offset the hardware against tax every 3 years.

That statement is interesting given the near 10 year lifespan of some things I own. Then again it's because I take the time to maintain it.

Not really worth the cost mind you.
hyperion 16th June 2012, 22:12 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by jrs77
That's because you don't get Apple-users. People who buy products from Apple aren't interested in tech and modifying it etc. People who buy and use products from Apple just buy and use them without questioning aslong as the product works as intended, which it'll do most of the time.

I've seen several people on these boards state they own an apple laptop as well as a pc. I'm not trying to be argumentative but you can't make a blanket statement about every single apple user as being uninterested in tech and modifying. The fact that they're on these boards indicates otherwise.

All I'm saying is that I'd expect them to gravitate towards this article and more than likely have an opinion on it. So far I didn't notice any outrage from apple users, which leads me to believe that even the pc hobbyists and techs who also buy apple products don't have upgradeability in mind when purchasing. It's an interesting niche that apple has cornered imo.

Other than that, the non-apple users seem more indignant about this move from apple, despite being entirely unaffected. Pc users aren't affected and apple users don't seem to be all that affected either. What's the big deal?
jrs77 17th June 2012, 02:29 Quote
I'm buying a new PC every two years. I don't upgrade them either, just like I don't upgrade a laptop, or tablet etc.
I'm one of those self-employed, who just offsets his hardware every two or three years against taxes and I'd be stupid to not buy a new rig actually.

Ofc I'm interested in tech and it's possibilities, and I even do modify my cases or built one myself from scratch, but I'm not modifying, overclocking or changing my hardware every now and then. When something breaks, I just buy something new or have it exchanged aslong as the warranty is still intact.

So, the big deal is, that most people actually couldn't care less about these things, as tehy're nothing to be upset about. Even if affected by the design of Apples products, it's nothing to be bothered about, as we just get new hardware and not think about it any further.

Apples products are not designed to be modified, overclocked or whatelse. They're designed to work the way they are until they get exchanged for something new. We - those who buy and use Apples products - are happy with that and so we don't care or cry foul.

So yeah, for Apples products my statement still stays, there's no interest in modifying these. We allready got PCs for that, if we wanted to.
Guinevere 17th June 2012, 08:49 Quote
Saying Apple gear is for people who don't care about tech and are just poor deluded sheep is now as antiquated as the rhetoric that used to be spouted around when slavery was abolished or women were given the vote...

Apple Good: Cutting edge tech. Gorgeous design. Seamless experience between OS & hardware.

Apple Bad: Not the cheapest. Limited options to customise and perform post purchase internal upgrades.

Apple summary: Good, but not suitable for everyone.

</EndOfThread>
Valinor 17th June 2012, 12:41 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by Guinevere
Saying Apple gear is for people who don't care about tech and are just poor deluded sheep is now as antiquated as the rhetoric that used to be spouted around when slavery was abolished or women were given the vote...

Apple Good: Cutting edge tech. Gorgeous design. Seamless experience between OS & hardware.

Apple Bad: Not the cheapest. Limited options to customise and perform post purchase internal upgrades.

Apple summary: Good, but not suitable for everyone.

</EndOfThread>

<RestartThread>

Imo (which is what arguments consist of), you could give the same Good points for Windows (if you're willing to pay more, the design is there). As for the experience, the only problems I've really had with windows have been either me overclocking something too far or deciding to delete the boot partition (I've done this more than once :)). You also get the wide range of tech choice which comes with having a completely open tech choice.

Having borrowed by dad's old 3GS while I'm waiting for my S3 to be delivered, I didn't see the massive responsiveness/smoothness everyone seems to talk about - it would freeze for a couple of seconds every now and then. Don't take this as me saying that all apple gear is slow, it's more that in my experience it hasn't had the advantages that it is claimed to have.

Just my two cents.
Cei 17th June 2012, 13:05 Quote
Based off the usage of an old phone, and not having used a Mac? Sorry, but you're basing your opinion on shaky ground.

I'm a Mac user, and have been since 2003. Equally, I'm a Windows user, because OS X is still terrible for games. Both platforms have their advantages and disadvantages, and it is down to the individual user to balance those up according to their opinions.

I appreciate my PC because it is fast and I can tinker with it. I appreciate my Macs because they're designed incredibly well, and the whole package of OS and hardware is tightly integrated. My love for good design spills over to the PC, where I'll spend ages finding a good case, but stops at the internals.

The new MacBook Pro is a powerful, slim, laptop with a ridiculously high resolution screen. That comes with sacrifices - namely the inability to tinker with components. At this point in time, you just have to accept the latter if you want the former. In time, we'll see the high resolution trickle down to other computers, which do let you swap out the RAM/battery and so forth - it's just that right now, with a limited supply of screens, Apple decided to go for the luxury slim & light market.
Guinevere 17th June 2012, 20:04 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by Valinor
Imo (which is what arguments consist of), you could give the same Good points for Windows

Of course it's all all personal opinion, just chilled out banter between friends.

And I'm happy to take you up on the challenge, but I'll do Microsoft's bad points too.

I'll start with a brief summary. Microsoft has more positive going for it than Apple, but it also (IMHO) has a lot more negative as well. And looking historically, Microsoft has some right clunkers to be ashamed of.

Microsoft Good: Familiarity. Choice. Both cheap and cheerful and high end options available and everything in between. Pro level enterprise software (Too many to name but I'll name check Office for starters and then do a server room name call later). Possible to find a solution to nearly any requirement you possibly have. Customisation of hardware. Allowing PC tinkering as an interest/hobby. Development tools. Xbox.

Microsoft Bad: The experience of the end user is not the driving force behind their decisions. Company ethos means genuinely fresh ideas will rarely be given the push they need. Too many development APIs. Allowing OEMs to install truly terrible software and ruin the UX. Allowing OEMs to build brilliant hardware and ruin it by writing terrible software for it and then abandoning said software after six months (Hello Sony). Allowing OEMs to build terrible hardware and then install terrible software on it. Not really knowing what to do with the tech they pull together (Surface, Courier etc)

Microsoft Legacy (The God Damn Awful list... whoever come up with these needs to be taken out and spanked!): F6 to install raid drivers. Bios. The registry. Clippy. Windows ME. Windows Genuine Advantage. PlaysForSure. User Account Control. Windows Pocket PC memory management. Everything pre Windows 95. Everything to do with networking pre Windows 2000. Regional and Language options during install. Twips in VB.
Guinevere 17th June 2012, 20:16 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by Valinor
Having borrowed by dad's old 3GS while I'm waiting for my S3 to be delivered, I didn't see the massive responsiveness/smoothness everyone seems to talk about - it would freeze for a couple of seconds every now and then.

I have a 3GS as part of the development test suite and I've never seen it lockup like this, but I wouldn't be too surpassed by the experience even if its iOS install was fully up to date. The 3GS does suffer from lack of RAM every now again and it is technically possible for it's normally pretty good memory management to stutter while it plays catch up when switching between several high demand apps.

As I said I've never seen it lockup for 2 seconds or so, but I'm certainly not saying it couldn't happen and 'if' the 3GS is jailbroken then memory management will be fighting even harder depending on the jailbreak + hacks installed.

I've got an original iPad in my test suite and although it doesn't lockup I can certainly feel that it's less responsive than my later iPads.

New device + new iOS version = Smooth and fast

Old device + new iOS version = Hardware having to work a lot harder to keep up.

Apple do restrict the functionality when they release the latest OS to the older devices, but it's not a perfect arrangement. You get 'most' of the new OS but not 100% and you certainly don't get the performance you'd get by buying a newer multi-core device with four times the RAM.

IMHO I'd still rather this arrangement then the carrier dominated model that plagues android on and which leaves ICE sitting on 7% of devices compared to 80% of Apples running iOS 5.
GoodBytes 17th June 2012, 21:34 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by Guinevere
Microsoft Legacy (The God Damn Awful list... whoever come up with these needs to be taken out and spanked!): F6 to install raid drivers. Bios. The registry. Clippy. Windows ME. Windows Genuine Advantage. PlaysForSure. User Account Control. Windows Pocket PC memory management. Everything pre Windows 95. Everything to do with networking pre Windows 2000. Regional and Language options during install. Twips in VB.

-> F6 to install RAID drivers: I don't see what's wrong with that. Windows 9x setup was terrible, so they went with the Windows NT one. Windows setup system which worked better, far more robust, and independent (no DOS needed). This meant, however, no interface. Why? because computer standards stated that when the system went in "Safe Mode" (no drivers), it went to minimum performance and ability (remember you need to support the lowest common denominator), and that meant that fancy GUI was out of the question. Heck, even Vista and Linux had trouble.

-> BIOS... what it has to do with Microsoft?

-> The registry is actually the best solution. A unified place, and using a database means super high performance in accessing data, and writing to it. Also (since Vista) it's fully loaded on memory, so no need to start reading files everywhere on an HDD. Also corruptions are limited and doesn't affect everything.

-> User Account Control. This is god send. This should have been in Windows 1 or 2. And the approach that Microsoft take is very good, while not perfect, it's far better than opening a command prompt window and start typing command with "sudo" in front, and start typing user name and passwords non stop, on fields that don't populate as you type. UAC also blocks all if not a great majority of viruses and malware from affecting a computer. They can't do anything until YOU allow it to.

-> I don't see what's wrong with 'Regional and Language options during install". Might as well do it there then start digging into the OS to find it, to avoid programs going "default" language on you, and pick different languages other than English, because no language was specified.

The rest I can't comment on, as I know nothing.

-> Windows Activation system. It works perfectly, and doesn't affect the user experience.

The only thing I would agree with you is Windows ME.

So before telling people they don't know **** about Mac's, and that you "know" both, you don't, and your not better than the people you critiqued.
Guinevere 17th June 2012, 22:32 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by GoodBytes
-> F6 to install RAID drivers: I don't see what's wrong with that.

I understand the ethos in having a hardware / os platform that will occasionally require 3rd party driver injection as part of the install procedure. But why is it you have to hit F6 at just the right time? Why can't the install wizard identify your hardware, realise it doesn't have any discs it can install to and then prompt you for the option.

It's a UX that assumes a certain amount of preparation and knowledge from the user. They could have produced a better and more user friendly system but didn't because this system was 'good enough'
Quote:
Originally Posted by GoodBytes
-> BIOS... what it has to do with Microsoft?

They were in a position to take a lead and make some real changes. Any muppet who can hit a delete key can enter a legacy bios and bring a machine to its knees in seconds, but it take a real genius to get a custom build working at it's very best and not fry the system with too much voltage in the process.

Microsoft could have said "Look at this - we're Microsoft and we're frigin' massive, we've come up with this better system and we want all you OEMs to use it as it'll result in more stable machines for the masses and a better tweaking experience for the tweakers out there. Oh and the PC will boot quicker too'.

What do they do? Leave all the decision making on this aspect of how best to manage a PC to the hardware vendors. The result is the bios we're all so well encountered with which is fine for you and I but akin to fitting every VW golf with a dashboard dial to adjust the valve timings.
Quote:
Originally Posted by GoodBytes
The registry is actually the best solution.

Apart from when 3rd party software treats it mean and drops it's keys down the back of the registry sofa before leaving.
Quote:
Originally Posted by GoodBytes
User Account Control. This is god send.

In principle the idea is great, but in reality it lead to there being too many requests for authentication which lead to people just clicking 'yes' on autopilot.
Quote:
Originally Posted by GoodBytes
I don't see what's wrong with 'Regional and Language options during install".

There's too many options that need to be in sync to end up with a machine with a 'standard' config. If I recall there was three places you had to set "British English" or similar to ensure you got your dates in the right format and your keys mapped correctly.

They could have just allowed a country choice with a 'customise' option to bring up the advanced options. Forcing every installer to see these convoluted options is bad thinking.
Quote:
Originally Posted by GoodBytes
So before telling people they don't know **** about Mac's

Citation needed!

I've never said that or insinuated that. We've been discussing our opinions on tech and our opinions on why the tech is the way it is. PCs are cool, Windows 7 is a nice OS. There's a lot of Mac users here, and even those that don't own Macs have clearly shown they have a knowledge of the platform. What gives? Why the accusation?

I'm sorry you're so offended by my opinions, or that because I'm happy to express them you think I'm insulting you and accusing you of knowing four asterisks about Macs.

As I've said I think there's more pros to owning a PC than there are to owning a Mac, but this opinion is tempered by my other opinion that the negative aspects of owning a PC are greater than the negative aspects of owning a Mac.

(macPositive - macNegative) > (pcPositive - pcNegative)

This opinions do not apply, and cannot apply to all of the people, all of the time. We're talking about 'general purpose computers here' not specialist gaming monsters, or corporate servers... or a million other scenarios where a PC is the clear choice.. or in the hundreds of scenarios where a Mac is the obvious choice (See what I did there!!!)

I don't hate you for choosing PC over Mac... or Xbox over PS3... or SNES over Megadrive... or Atari ST over Amiga... or C64 over spectrum... Same arguments time and time again.

All mostly humbly IMO!

PS. Having a choice and being able to debate the different merits of each system is amazingly cool! Don't go hating on someone because they have a different opinion.

PPS. I'm trying to keep things nice and fluffy but it's been twice now where I've been attacked in this thread for daring to have the opinion that Apple computers, while not perfect, are actually nice things to own that have some merits over a PC. The next person who throws an insult in my direction gets a cold pot of custard down their trousers!
matt_lumley 17th June 2012, 22:53 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by Guinevere


(macPositive - macNegative) > (pcPositive - pcNegative)

This is where it all comes down to. The above OPINION is subjective, everyone has one and the above is true in your case. However is others, myself included, it is not and I feel it has, to a degree, to do with what you were brought up around/worked with first.

Having recently gained a mac in the household (dad needed on for work) I was shocked at how different they are and how baffled I was at time trying to use it. This is just because I have never really used them, always have a pc or a windows machine of some sort.

In my opinion Windows out weighs mac in terms of overall benefits for me and that isn't just down to my apparently lack of knowledge towards mac but also the systems I have worked on.

For me windows has many great options and features that I feel go uncredited such as some brought up above.
*UAC- an excellent addition to Windows, all be it sometimes a little intrusive , it is almost a self preservation system that has come to my aid many a time.
*Cross system compatibility- no matter what hardware inside a pc if its running windows and has a SOFTWARE only problem it can quite easily be solved, as can macs I am aware, but it also opens up for competition and variation. My PC is hardly ever going to be identical to anyone else's as I have picked each part for my own reasons. As has everyone here but macs are very limited. Two people with a MBP are likely to have almost identical systems. Can the same be said about PCs? No.
*software base and compatibility- Windows has strived and has succeeded in having a huge software base much larger than macs and that is fantastic, any problem with the right troubleshooting can be solved on a pc, on a mac? No sometimes I believe you just have to accept there are some things osx can not do.

Above are just a few but in my opinion Windows just provides a more "open" system

PS. Having these chats are what makes bit-tech.
GoodBytes 17th June 2012, 23:17 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by Guinevere
I understand the ethos in having a hardware / os platform that will occasionally require 3rd party driver injection as part of the install procedure. But why is it you have to hit F6 at just the right time? Why can't the install wizard identify your hardware, realise it doesn't have any discs it can install to and then prompt you for the option.
1- IDE doesn't require drivers.
2- It doesn't know what you need drivers, it assumes it can communicate with the controller (which it can), and everything will be normal. The controller doesn't say "Hey Mr. Setup! You don't have your needed drivers loaded so that you can work with all the features I support." Even today, there is no OS that support this. All it can do, is notice that no drives can be detected, and ASSUMES that no drivers are loaded, and will load wtv is on disk, or tell you about installing them.
3- The only reason why you need some now, is because XP was on market for 6 years.
4- Back then, it was computer enthusiasts or professionals or "professionals" who installed Windows. Rarely mom and pop.
Quote:

It's a UX that assumes a certain amount of preparation and knowledge from the user. They could have produced a better and more user friendly system but didn't because this system was 'good enough'
And when Microosft does change something, everyone freaks out and goes "Dont' changes what's not broken!!!!!"
Quote:
They were in a position to take a lead and make some real changes. Any muppet who can hit a delete key can enter a legacy bios and bring a machine to its knees in seconds, but it take a real genius to get a custom build working at it's very best and not fry the system with too much voltage in the process.
Every time Microsoft tried to touch something that was standard to make it better, everyone freaks out, and criticizes them. However, Microsoft did push greatly UEFI, and was supporting it since Vista days, when no one here had it.
Quote:

Microsoft could have said "Look at this - we're Microsoft and we're frigin' massive, we've come up with this better system and we want all you OEMs to use it as it'll result in more stable machines for the masses and a better tweaking experience for the tweakers out there. Oh and the PC will boot quicker too'.
OEMs don't allow voltage control or any kind or changes beside the pure basics like time, date, RAID (if you are lucky), password protect, and boot order. System stability has nothing to do with the BIOS. OEM's uses inferior product quality and poor engineering because the consume seeks the lowest price possible. That is why Business class system cost so much more over consumer models for the same specs. Better costumer service, better warranty service, longer warranty, better build quality, better engineering, better cooling system and engineering, better software, junk free, and OS disk, all costs money. Most consumers don't care about any of that. All they want is the lowest price possible. Else they buy a Mac, or business class system.

Quote:
Apart from when 3rd party software treats it mean and drops it's keys down the back of the registry sofa before leaving.
I understand what you mean. Honest, no joke. Do you mean that a software doesn't delete it's keys after you uninstall? If so, then complain to the developer. Also, the cool thing about databases, is that you can make it as dirty as possible, and the most unorganized mess, and it will be just as efficient as if it was clean.
Quote:

In principle the idea is great, but in reality it lead to there being too many requests for authentication which lead to people just clicking 'yes' on autopilot.
First of all, it only shows up when you do system level tasks, affects all users on the system, and install/uninstall a program. A normal user doesn't and should not be affected by this. If they are, and have no idea what they are ding, then their is just so much Microosft can do. I guess Microsoft can make a video chat pop-up thing that shows and tell the user: "I think this 'no-a-virus-honest-super-cool-picture.exe' is a malware or virus, you should not allow it". Or a policy that will destroy your front door as they come in, and point guns on your head and go: "STOP!".
Quote:
There's too many options that need to be in sync to end up with a machine with a 'standard' config. If I recall there was three places you had to set "British English" or similar to ensure you got your dates in the right format and your keys mapped correctly.
huh?
Quote:

They could have just allowed a country choice with a 'customise' option to bring up the advanced options. Forcing every installer to see these convoluted options is bad thinking.
Isn't this like this already?
Gareth Halfacree 18th June 2012, 08:33 Quote
Thought this was interesting: Apple will replace the batteries of its Pro laptops for £99 (13in and 15in) or £129 (17in) - except the MacBook Pro with Retina Display, which costs £159.
Nexxo 18th June 2012, 08:58 Quote
Bigger battery, perhaps? That retina display sucks up the juice.
Guinevere 18th June 2012, 09:29 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gareth Halfacree
Thought this was interesting: Apple will replace the batteries of its Pro laptops for £99 (13in and 15in) or £129 (17in) - except the MacBook Pro with Retina Display, which costs £159.

RMPB = 95-watt-hour = £1.67 per watt-hour

MBP = 63.5-watt-hour = £1.55 per watt-hour

50% higher capacity cells for a 60% higher fee, so that does show that the methods of installation or the technology inherent within the specific cells needed is driving up the cost.

IMHO I'd say the installation method has the biggest bearing on cost given that with iPads Apple charge a fixed £85 for a 42.5-watt-hour iPad 3 battery (£2 per watt-hour) replacement and the same figure for an iPad 2 25-watt-hour battery (£3.40 per watt-hour).

Third parties will work something out though, in 24 months there'll be options available for the committed DIYer willing to save a few £ at the expense of a knuckle or two.

My 3yo MBP is showing 85% health on it's battery and that's with a very heavily used machine which hasn't had the battery treated with the best of care (I know!). I doubt I'll need to replace the battery in the time I have this machine in active use.

At the end of the day replacing the battery on my RMBP in five or six years is going to cost me 5% of the original purchase price.... maybe that says as much about the purchase price as it does anything else :(
Griffter 18th June 2012, 09:31 Quote
i think most ppl had the same thought i had... after steve jobs past away appl would go back to colourful oval shaped macs and other things like this. this time tho, good ol' stevie cant pull them out of the fire again and again.
Gareth Halfacree 18th June 2012, 09:34 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by Guinevere
RMPB = 95-watt-hour = £1.67 per watt-hour

MBP = 63.5-watt-hour = £1.55 per watt-hour

50% higher capacity cells for a 60% higher fee, so that does show that the methods of installation or the technology inherent within the specific cells needed is driving up the cost.
Good calculations - shows that although there *is* a premium (either because the battery itself is more complex to manufacture or because the bloody thing's glued in place) but it's not as big a premium as t'would first seem.
Guinevere 18th June 2012, 09:45 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by GoodBytes
Every time Microsoft tried to touch something that was standard to make it better, everyone freaks out, and criticizes them.

So in response Microsoft continue with new system and keep the legacy system too - which resulted in an OS that for too long was left to become a mess of legacy APIs and antiquated user interface screens, wizards etc.

They could have made some really important usability improvements years ago, but didn't because of the 'it's just about good enough - don't change it' mentality of... of well everyone. Only now when there are really genuine alternatives do they shake things up a bit. Kudos to them... it's not too little, and it's not too late... but it is very late!
Quote:
Originally Posted by GoodBytes
Better costumer service, better warranty service, longer warranty, better build quality, better engineering, better cooling system and engineering, better software, junk free, and OS disk, all costs money. Most consumers don't care about any of that. All they want is the lowest price possible. Else they buy a Mac, or business class system.

My point exactly. Microsoft have put 'bums on seats' sales as a driving KPI for way too long. It's only now with their signature series that they're offering a Microsoft lead option for a consumer to purchase a windows system with a clear indication (From Microsoft) that it will be a nice experience. They never used to care about the actual experience the user had when they bought a new machine, all they wanted to do was sell an OEM the OS licence.

The experience of the end user wasn't seen as important enough to change their methods. But they've since learned that there is a market for machines 'that just work', have suitable spec for the needs and aren't tainted by the bloatware OEMs install to make an extra few quid.
Guinevere 18th June 2012, 09:53 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nexxo
Bigger battery, perhaps? That retina display sucks up the juice.

You betcha. My iPad 3...

- has 60% more battery than my iPad 2.
- Drains it 25% faster.
- Drains it >25% faster when gaming or pushing the CPU/GPU.
- Takes >50% longer to charge.

Retina screen = Win.
Impact on Battery = NOT WIN!

It's a damn good thing that the retina screen is worth it and more than compensates for the negatives on the battery.

And if you feel differently they still sell the iPad 2 which has a refined A5 processor to give even better battery life from the 25-watt-hour cells than the 'old' iPad 2.

It's also worth noting that the iPad 2 had a quoted 10hr battery life but if just web browsing on 1/3 or lower brightness it's not unheard of to get 14hours. iPad 3... You'll be lucky to get much more than the quoted 10hrs. Those retina pixels do block the light somewhat.
SighMoan 19th June 2012, 22:51 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gareth Halfacree
Quote:
Originally Posted by rollo
This site and trusted reviews is becoming like the apple news website
Really? *One* story on Apple - and a critical one at that - and suddenly it's "becoming like the Apple news site?" Really really?

I would agree that TR has pretty much gone to the dogs, but i think it is unfair to label BT the same.
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