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Apple tries harder to prevent upgrades

Apple tries harder to prevent upgrades

Previous generations of Apple's iMac have been relatively easy to upgrade thanks to workarounds but its new 2011 range has proved far more restrictive, causing mixed reactions amongst Apple fans

An investigation by Other World computing has revealed that Apple has stepped up its battle against end users tinkering with the innards of its products.

Apple's 2011 line of iMacs, according to the investigation, have taken this battle one step further by altering the SATA power connector on the hard disk provided with the machine from a standard 4-wire power configuration to a 7-wire configuration.

In addition, hard disk temperature control is now regulated by a combination of this cable and Apple proprietary firmware on the hard disk itself. This makes workarounds, which have been possible in the past, much more difficult.

The crux of the issue comes when trying to replace the included hard disk with another - this now results in the hard disk bay cooling fan spinning up to full, ear-splitting speed (up to 5,600rpm according to another source).

In addition, the article went on to say that 'replacing the drive with any non-Apple original drive will result in the iMac failing the Apple Hardware Test (AHT)'

Apple has often tried to prevent end users from performing the same kind of upgrades on Macs that they can with their PC. However, with upgrading an old computer more popular now than ever, and end users more keen to be able to boost their PCs performance as well as being able to replace failed hardware, Apple's move appears to have caused a rift among Mac users. The more tech-savvy are concerned that the move is too restrictive.

Were you considering purchasing a new iMac? What do you make of the issue? Let us know in the forum.

127 Comments

Discuss in the forums Reply
r3loaded 16th May 2011, 12:25 Quote
You'd have to be a chump to buy Macs these days.
msm722 16th May 2011, 12:26 Quote
Yea I can't understand why upgrading something like a HDD should be discouraged.
xs_damage 16th May 2011, 12:29 Quote
wow. The most unreliable component in the machine can no longer be easily replaced. Apple are really testing customer tollarance now.
adam_bagpuss 16th May 2011, 12:30 Quote
LOL just another step to control you even more by Apple.

next step is to charge you for conencting to wi-fi. "Want to connect to wi-fi sir then you gotta pay us as your not using an airport product"

forget the hassle buy a cheaper better PC that allows for such things.
wuyanxu 16th May 2011, 12:30 Quote
iMac are not really designed for self servicing, so it's no surprise.

5600rpm? they use Delta fans or what? it's mostly laptop components FFS, there simply is no need. oh wait, iMac designed for the eyes, not for practicality.
Jamie 16th May 2011, 12:30 Quote
This is an odd move, but they've never really made it easy to access the hard drives anyway, especially in laptops.
SMIFFYDUDE 16th May 2011, 12:31 Quote
The real price of fashion.
Xyllian 16th May 2011, 12:31 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by msm722
Yea I can't understand why upgrading something like a HDD should be discouraged.

The answer is monies, Apple charges three times the amount than a etailer for identical hdds, its a cheap move by apple, i like their handhelds and top laptops but other then that it is pure crappolution.
javaman 16th May 2011, 12:41 Quote
Hence the reason I don't buy apple products. I want to choose how I use the product not be told that I have to download from here and use this piece of software or this sim card with what ever deal we want you to take. Their products aren't that good that I can't get what I want elsewhere usually cheaper and better.
Bakes 16th May 2011, 12:42 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by wuyanxu
iMac are not really designed for self servicing, so it's no surprise.

5600rpm? they use Delta fans or what? it's mostly laptop components FFS, there simply is no need. oh wait, iMac designed for the eyes, not for practicality.

It's probably a blower, like those seen in graphics cards. Higher RPMs for the same throughput - and easy to make run fast.

I'm not sure this will entirely cut off upgrades. Apple authorized repairers can order official Apple parts such as hard drives extremely easily - it may result in higher prices, but probably not much more.

It's a shame though - I just replaced my Macbook Pro hard drive with a Crucial SSD, and it's given all the improvements I expected. It wouldn't be nice if Apple were to stop this.

Jamie - What laptop have you used? My MBP 2010 13 inch, once I removed the back panel, the hard drive was locked in an anti-shock bracket by four screws - which were easily removed. Yes, there were a couple of Torx screws, but they were easily sorted.

http://guide-images.ifixit.net/igi/bLtKOLyJdyAxkZaG.medium
wuyanxu 16th May 2011, 12:48 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bakes
It's probably a blower, like those seen in graphics cards. Higher RPMs for the same throughput - and easy to make run fast.

I'm not sure this will entirely cut off upgrades. Apple authorized repairers can order official Apple parts such as hard drives extremely easily - it may result in higher prices, but probably not much more.

that's the issue people are commenting on: it's about making sure all material comes out of their marked-up source, rather than directly from actual component manufactures.

even blower does not need to be that fast. 5870 blow at around 3600 at highest speed. gtx580 blow at around 3000 at its firmware limited 85%. (from personal experience of owning them). normal fans are much better, but they cannot fit it inside a the slim design, so instead of changing product appearance, they chose to use inferior component. (inferior in terms of heatsink size, thus require higher airflow)
Rustypouch 16th May 2011, 12:53 Quote
Quote:
Were you considering purchasing a new iMac? What do you make of the issue?

God no!

I'm not surprised by this move to be honest. Most people don't really give a toss about what rights they give away these days. I'm not even going to begin the Anti-Apple comments, I'm just so bored of that debate now. They are the Marmite of the Computing World, you either "love it or hate it".
RedFlames 16th May 2011, 12:55 Quote
haven't they also started using non-standard screws to stop you opening them up?
liratheal 16th May 2011, 12:58 Quote
Hahahahahahahaha.
TheBoyBest 16th May 2011, 13:02 Quote
I fix notebooks, desktops and Macs on a component level basis and have to admit to not being a great fan of Apple related products, I can confirm that Apple have started using custom pentalobe screws as well. People seem so keen to buy into the brand, typical of modern living. Style over substance - though I must admit I think my custom built desktop PC is way nicer than something Apple could throw together.
Elton 16th May 2011, 13:05 Quote
Oh surprise surprise.
V3ctor 16th May 2011, 13:12 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by r3loaded
You'd have to be a chimp to buy Macs these days.

Fixed XD

Everyone is free to buy what they want, but I can't imagine myself buying a PC that I couldn't even upgrade with a ram stick or a new HDD.
mikeuk2004 16th May 2011, 13:13 Quote
Thats been Apples mission since day one. They are the PC version of consoles. You want an upgrade, bin your old machine and buy a new one.

They also try to slow down progression. Look at the IPADS, was there really a need to not provide mini USB sockets and other common standard functionality you would expect now as a minimmum?

Its so they can sell you a new version every year with a tiny upgrade. If you have a IPAD, is there really a need for you to trade in for a IPAD2?
specofdust 16th May 2011, 13:26 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by msm722
Yea I can't understand why upgrading something like a HDD should be discouraged.

Have you seen how much Apple charge for hard drive upgrades? Have have to pay £80 extra on an Macbook to get a 500GB disk compared with a 250. Not to mention having to pay about twice what RAM is worth.

Apple's computer business model works off doing simple stuff for you and charging you a lot for the privilege. They don't want people upgrading HDD's because they could be doing that for you and charging you a huge sum for it.
azrael- 16th May 2011, 13:30 Quote
Quote:
Apple tries harder to prevent non-Apple-sanctioned upgrades which Apple doesn't profit from
There. Fixed that for you.
Aracos 16th May 2011, 13:40 Quote
This is exactly why I fill with rage at everything Apple, they want to kill my baby, if Apple received a monopoly like microsoft did the world we live in would be very different. I will protect my baby to the end, home built PC's forever!
Flibblebot 16th May 2011, 13:44 Quote
I've said it many times before, and I'm sure I'll be saying many times again: it's ironic that Apple were the ones who started the whole Microsoft anti-competitive thing in the 90s, and they've now become far more controlling than Microsoft ever were.

You have to give credit to their marketing department, though - I've heard their next job is to sell sand to Saudi and ice to Alaska!
Zurechial 16th May 2011, 13:45 Quote
Apologists incoming in 3...2...1...

(Oooh it feels fuzzy to be 'that guy'. Normally it's a mac fanboy predicting a wave of uninformed criticism!)
Quote:
Originally Posted by storm20200
If Apple received a monopoly like microsoft did the world we live in would be very different. I will protect my baby to the end, home built PC's forever!
That's not a world I want to live in. :(
leveller 16th May 2011, 13:47 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by storm20200
This is exactly why I fill with rage at everything Apple, they want to kill my baby, if Apple received a monopoly like microsoft did the world we live in would be very different. I will protect my baby to the end, home built PC's forever!

Wow! That brought a tear to my eye
Spreadie 16th May 2011, 14:04 Quote
TBH, I couldn't give a toss about Apple screwing their iMac customers.

If people insist on paying over the odds for a computer that is little more than a fashion item, they deserve to be fleeced at every turn. :p


[edit] *Shamelessly nicked from another forum*
Quote:
Charlie Brooker:
Macs are glorified Fisher-Price activity centres for adults; computers for scaredy cats too nervous to learn how proper computers work; computers for people who earnestly believe in feng shui.

:)
lamboman 16th May 2011, 14:11 Quote
When are the tech-Nazis that are Apple going to understand that the product we bought from them belongs to the customer, and that we aren't renting it?

Apple make utter ***** nowadays as far as I'm concerned; no innovation, and iOS has been behind the game for a while now. And let's not go near what will be wrong with the next version of OS X...

Sent from my Desire HD
Margo Baggins 16th May 2011, 14:13 Quote
Quote:

ah yes but you are missing this "The cable-free, direct-attach drive solution lets you install and remove drives in a snap. To install a drive, you connect a simple drive carrier to the hard drive, then just slide it into place -- no cables or connectors to hassle with. Removing the drive is just as easy." - see. they have hotswap bays. see thats good.
Odini 16th May 2011, 14:19 Quote
Quote:

To be fair, that is not a fair comparison.

http://www.ebuyer.com/product/247271 would be fairer as it is also a 7200rpm. Your point still remains though :P
RedFlames 16th May 2011, 14:23 Quote
@ spreadie: i prefer this one
Quote:
I don't care if every Mac product comes with a magic button on the side that makes it piddle gold coins and resurrect the dead. I'm not buying one, so shut up and go home.

... personally I still think Charlie Brooker is an annoying prat


It's no worse than when MS charging £80 for a 250GB HDD for the XBox 360
Spreadie 16th May 2011, 14:27 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by RedFlames
... personally I still think Charlie Brooker is an annoying prat
I agree but, every now and again, even prats say something quote-worthy. :D
Flibblebot 16th May 2011, 14:34 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by Margo Baggins
ah yes but you are missing this "The cable-free, direct-attach drive solution lets you install and remove drives in a snap. To install a drive, you connect a simple drive carrier to the hard drive, then just slide it into place -- no cables or connectors to hassle with. Removing the drive is just as easy." - see. they have hotswap bays. see thats good.
Yes, but a single hotswap bay for an extra £200? For that price, I'd want it to install itself! :D
KiNETiK 16th May 2011, 14:42 Quote
Apple desktop computing is a complete fail imo.
Snips 16th May 2011, 14:52 Quote
I know this has already turned into an Apple bashing exercise. However, I only look at Apple computers as Laptop components anyway whether it be the Macbook or iMac. How often to most general users upgrade or make changes to their Laptops? Other than Ram, I don't think I've changed anything else.

Is this really an issue?

As for comparing it to Microsoft charging £80 for an Xbox HDD, that's a completely different topic and it isn't a normal HDD in the first place.
thetrashcanman 16th May 2011, 15:06 Quote
nazi's!

thank god you can still change the hard drive in the new mbp's that's all i can say, or i wouldn't bother buying one
Flibblebot 16th May 2011, 15:18 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by Snips
As for comparing it to Microsoft charging £80 for an Xbox HDD, that's a completely different topic and it isn't a normal HDD in the first place.
Really? I thought it was just a bog-standard 2.5" HDD with a custom firmware - in fact, just like Apple are doing...
misterd77 16th May 2011, 15:22 Quote
last yr my mother wanted more memory, she took her mac to a mac dealer, got a new hdd installed, the price including labour, £326, I went mental, sure she got a 2tb drive, but for xxxx times the price a pc one would have cost, I phoned a local pc shop and enquired for the cost of a hdd replacement for a pc, for a 2tb drive, £65, with the same warranty as apple, so apple made over £200 profit at LEAST on a simple hdd upgrade. I am angry at apple ripping off my dear old ma, but at the same time impressed at the ability to do so, I have now bought shares in Apple Corp. (my dear old ma, bless her, now hates Steve Jobs, and swears when she see's him on tv, when footage of him at the ipad2 launch appeared, ma belted out, "iv paid that scum so he can prance about in his vneck, I hope he catches something terrible", I didnt have the heart to tell her..., so steve, even grannies are pissed off with ya..!
./^\.Ace./^\. 16th May 2011, 15:41 Quote
Apple started up as a computer company that was friendly to users and alowed them to tinker with there computers because IBM was locked up and un-friendly. Now IBM is open to upgrades and mods and it is Apple that is locked up and un-friendly. They tell us that OSX is locked up to save us from hackers and people that want to break our computers, really it is so the developers have to pay Apple to support there programs. what harm can a hard drive upgrade do to a computer, nothing. Apple just wants to be the only one that can sell and install the hard drive for you that way they make even more money off you.

Apple will continue to do stupid things like this as long as people alow them to. I think it is wromg and that is why I don't use Macs. So people should stand up an tell them to be open again, with hardware and software.
Hakuren 16th May 2011, 16:22 Quote
I often read/watched various articles/editorials/movies from people in the West about Communism and communists/marxists type of industry. Usually all that stuff is result of some very shallow thinking by people who doesn't have a clue about living in such environment and using it purely to scare voters every time elections are near.

And here Apple comes to the rescue. If you only read about Communism in the books then here you have absolutely glorious example of Communism.

Worked on Macs, but I will never switch freedom and open platform of PC with Stalinist style of Apple computing. To paraphrase advert from one of German supermarkets: "Apple only for idiots!"
Deders 16th May 2011, 16:45 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by Snips
I know this has already turned into an Apple bashing exercise.

But they make it so easy for us
Jehla 16th May 2011, 16:49 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by V3ctor
Fixed XD

Everyone is free to buy what they want, but I can't imagine myself buying a PC that I couldn't even upgrade with a ram stick or a new HDD.

You can upgrade the RAM, and from what I've read there is a second hard drive slot in the imac which accepts traditional hard drives.

Quote:

Seen the graphics card selection?


I often don't understand apples desk top market. There is no "enthusiast" grade system, and systems start at a premium and then get very expensive when you want a little bit more storage, RAM or processing power.

On the other hand IOS products a delight to use and competitively priced. Come on Apple, learn!
Cei 16th May 2011, 17:16 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jehla
There is no "enthusiast" grade system, and systems start at a premium and then get very expensive when you want a little bit more storage, RAM or processing power.

Because Apple don't want "enthusiasts" as users, because as this topic demonstrably shows, enthusiasts are dicks who are never happy with what a company releases.

Apple sell their machines to those who couldn't give a toss about replacing the HD, upgrading the GPU or whatnot. They sell them to people who just want to use the computer, not have it open on their desk with the bits hanging out. The long and short is that Apple will never appeal to the Bit Tech crowd, which is why Apple news topics on here turn into flamebait within thirty seconds.

Apple have a different market, and it works for them (and their users, who are generally very very happy with their machines). Yes they make massive profits, and you pay out through the nose, but if you don't want to buy one, don't!
lamboman 16th May 2011, 17:28 Quote
Actually, you'll find the typical Apple customer does know at least a little about computers, enough to know that they want a bigger hard drive etc. Usually they are the type that can follow instructions and at least do a basic upgrade.

Sent from my Desire HD
Jehla 16th May 2011, 17:49 Quote
[QUOTE=Cei]
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jehla
Apple will never appeal to the Bit Tech crowd, which is why Apple news topics on here turn into flamebait within thirty seconds.

I just dream of a place where people see Apple objectively.
A lot of the commenter's in this thread will imply your missing some key chromosomes if you if you use an IOS or OSX device.
And on pro apple sites the commenter's are blind to any issues on mac equipment. For example the playbook recall due to software, many people are in stitches about how foolish RIM has been. I remember though when I bought my iphone4 that for a good while calls would often end because the screen would activate and my face would touch the "end call" button.
leveller 16th May 2011, 17:51 Quote
I've got a 2TB HDD and a 250GB SSD in my (last gen) iMac ... I know this will be perfect for the duration I have it. When I had my Mac Mini I upgraded it's RAM and HDD and I learnt the next time to buy exactly what I would need long term because it just wasn't worth the headache and sweats trying to open the box and not damage the casing.

For me, the iMac is a great piece of kit - tidy, clever and capable and I do all my day-to-day work on it. After a couple of years I think my Win7 rig will have cost me more than the iMac because I like to have a great gaming machine with enthusiast components.

Horses for courses.
Showerhead 16th May 2011, 17:59 Quote
Is the cooling fan really necessary just cut the cables to it or splice a resistor into it's circuit or does that require gutting the machine?
shanky887614 16th May 2011, 18:06 Quote
if you like the look of an imac, buy one that is broken rip out internals replace with pc, install mac os, and your done
azazel1024 16th May 2011, 18:29 Quote
Just like having to go to the dealership to buy a part for your car. At least you can generally replace the part yourself if you care to, without having to pay dealership markup labor prices.

I have my own heavy biasis, but I've always hated manufacturers trying to make your life as difficult as possible if you ever choose to either A) Use the product you purchased from them in a manner other than what it was designed for or B) Attempt to force you to go back to them if the product either ever broke or else your requirements later changed and you needed to increase the performance of the product (new HDD, new video card, etc).

I don't however mean that due to its nature it is difficult or impossible for the end-user to modify, change, replace, etc. I mean I find it abhorant when the manfacturer spends time, energy, effort, thought to intentionally make it difficult (special screws, proprietary connectors no one else uses, special hardware firmware that is inentional different to make anything else incompatible).

However, so long as you know that is what you are getting in to when buying the product to begin with, well...there it is. Its not something I would ever buy in to however as the entire mentality behind it is foreign to me.

Frankly, with Apple, I am suprised that there isn't hardware based protection so that only peripherials sold by Apple can be used on them. You know, hardware based encryption for USB drives and sticks so that only Apple external drives and thumb sticks can be used on Apple computers. You know, for the users protection and all that. Of course, it does cost a bit more to implement this you know. Or only Apple keyboards and mice. Gotta protect the user experience here. Who knows what kind of shody manufacturing exists outside of our ecosphere.

Maybe you can only connect your computer to an Apple approved/designed/sold electrical outlet after that. And that outlet better be connected to Apple mains wiring, and don't forget about the Apple breaker box and Apple power grid. It just isn't going to work unless it is connected to that 4 phase 73hz 160v Apple power grid. Don't want to spoil the user exerience by possibly introducing anyone else's shoddy power grid in to the equation.

I'll have to say, my Dad is an Apple Fanboi through and through (after years of hating them). iMac, iPad II, Mac book, iPhone, the whole nine yards. He constantly complains about Apple service (costing an arm and both legs) and how hard Apple makes it to replace anything (decided to replace the drive in his Mac Book with a Momentus XT 500GB, you know because he doesn't want to feel like he has to replace his hardware every 2yrs, just maybe some upgrades to make it relevant longer). Yet, it "just works" and he loves the design.

Just don't bring up all the issues he's had with various bits of hardware and software in polite conversation when he says "it just works".
bobwya 16th May 2011, 19:15 Quote
I recently tried to fix an old iMac for a friend. This had a 700Mhz PowerPC CPU, in a circular motherboard (yeh I kid you not!!), in the base of the monitor stand. You couldn't power up the machine without connecting the motherboard (fixed to the base) to another (connector in the upper part of the base). Couldn't boot into Spinrite because of the stupid Apple EFI BIOS - that I couldn't even access. The harddrive was an old and hot 7200 rpm model - which was encased in a rubber sleeve (just in case it cold in the winter perhaps??) Resurrected the harddisk in a regular PC (go figure) using Spinrite but could only get the machine to boot once...

Really what crack is Steve smoking?
Webby63 16th May 2011, 19:41 Quote
What a surprise :)
Farfalho 16th May 2011, 21:59 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by Flibblebot
Quote:
Originally Posted by Margo Baggins
ah yes but you are missing this "The cable-free, direct-attach drive solution lets you install and remove drives in a snap. To install a drive, you connect a simple drive carrier to the hard drive, then just slide it into place -- no cables or connectors to hassle with. Removing the drive is just as easy." - see. they have hotswap bays. see thats good.
Yes, but a single hotswap bay for an extra £200? For that price, I'd want it to install itself! :D
As Flibblebot says, that costs you an extra £200, so let's do the math:

I have a Zalman GS1000 and two hot swappable bays, one hot swap pcb included.
So I have to buy a second one, ok, that's a 35€ top. Now I have a hot swap pcb, install it with screws, plug 3 sata cables, 2 molex cables. So far, so good, I have the ability to hot swap ready!

Now let's buy a 2TB 3Gb/s HDD, let's use the £56.34 price tag, that's about 60-ish €. Already have a drive caddy, install the HDD in it, open the lid, insert the HDD, make sure it's connected when a click sounds, close lid. Start up the pc and initialize the HDD. Presto!

So about a 100€ price tag, below £100 to have a 2TB HDD and hot-swappable.
Get a grip really!

Apple is literally pulling ideas from its brain through its ass. May I bless the PC and purge the world from Apple. Amen to me

http://img001.groups.im/pic/G/2011/05/16/ff8080812fe77094012ffa5e3cb03cc7.JPG
Volund 16th May 2011, 22:04 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by Farfalho
As Flibblebot says, that costs you an extra £200, so let's do the math:

I have a Zalman GS1000 and two hot swappable bays, one hot swap pcb included.
So I have to buy a second one, ok, that's a 35€ top. Now I have a hot swap pcb, install it with screws, plug 3 sata cables, 2 molex cables. So far, so good, I have the ability to hot swap ready!

Now let's buy a 2TB 3Gb/s HDD, let's use the £56.34 price tag, that's about 60-ish €. Already have a drive caddy, install the HDD in it, open the lid, insert the HDD, make sure it's connected when a click sounds, close lid. Start up the pc and initialize the HDD. Presto!

So about a 100€ price tag, below £100 to have a 2TB HDD and hot-swappable.
Get a grip really!

Apple is literally pulling ideas from its brain through its ass. May I bless the PC and purge the world from Apple. Amen to me

http://img001.groups.im/pic/G/2011/05/16/ff8080812fe77094012ffa5e3cb03cc7.JPG

and apple is sure as hell getting everything for cheaper than you or I would, just because of volume.
samkiller42 16th May 2011, 22:26 Quote
I love my 2009 iMac, Sheer simplicity. But this news has brought the look of wtf to my face.

Apple sure do do things differently.

Sam
l3v1ck 16th May 2011, 23:09 Quote
Quote:
Were you considering purchasing a new iMac?
I'd never buy an Apple for this very reason. It's my PC and I'll do what I want with it.
DatenThielt 17th May 2011, 00:16 Quote
Here is some facts :) , I work for an apple authorised repair centre (Esher,Surry),
1. The fans get that fast because if you have ever touched the back of an Imac 21.5-27 inch then you will know it can actually burn, And that's the power supplies fault, (Surprisingly the rest of the components don't get anywhere near as hot).
2. A normal HDD can cost you as stated well over £200 the normal asking price, But you have to add VAT and Labour on top of that (Lab can be 45-70), AND Until they release Lion, Mac OSX 10.6< Does not support Trim so the £500 you spend on an SSD from apple that will last you 5 - 9 months is wasted, There is a second space ONLY in the Imac 27 inch that supports a standard Sata connection but if you dont have the Temperature sensor (That is build into the HDD Firmware) You will get the fan speed at top speed AND it will still fail the ASD.

P.S I work as an ACMT But I dont support Apples ethics at all.
P.P.S Need mac hardware info or help , msg me :D
slothy89 17th May 2011, 00:24 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jehla
I often don't understand apples desk top market. There is no "enthusiast" grade system, and systems start at a premium and then get very expensive when you want a little bit more storage, RAM or processing power.
well actually... Apple DOES have an "enthusiast" grade system. It's called the MacPro and comes in a full tower case. And if I recall contains all desktop hardware. You can even get it watercooled!! Not that Apple allow overclocking tho...
But even then every part has been proprietised to some degree to prevent unsolicited upgrades. You might be able to change the RAM and HDD but that's it. The graphics are special Apple design.

Oh and these MacPro's cost US$3.5k just for the base model..
US$2k would get you an insane Wintel gaming rig which you could upgrade in yrs time..

Someone did a breakdown of the cost of a base model iMac on a previous article here at bit-tech and found that straight off the shelf theres only a very small markup on the parts you're getting. No more than 5%
where the overpriced bit comes in is when you want to get more of something. Eg to go from 4gb ram to 8 will cost you more than a full 16gb from an e-tailer.

Apple has gone bonkers...
veato 17th May 2011, 00:27 Quote
1) the hdd in the iMac was never that upgradable before this anyway. You have to AFAIK take the glass panel off the front which isn't easy or something I'd expect your average iMac buyer wants to do

2) warranty repairs I'd let Apple do anyway for free (sale of goods act beyond the first year)

3) future expansion if required can be enabled via external thunderbolt drives

With that said its the kind of thing I expect from Apple to keep everything in house and nice and pricey. I'm not sure what all the talk of SATA 4 pin power connectors is all about tho. SATA has never had 4pin power has it?

I am amused at the anti-imac comments tho. I've got a 27" IPS 2560x1440 monitor with a sandy bridge 3.1ghz, 8gb RAM and a 6790M (near as damn it a 6850) for no real extra cost than what it would cost a 'real' pc of the same spec. Not bad for a toy ;)
javaman 17th May 2011, 01:39 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by specofdust
Have you seen how much Apple charge for hard drive upgrades? Have have to pay £80 extra on an Macbook to get a 500GB disk compared with a 250. Not to mention having to pay about twice what RAM is worth.

Apple's computer business model works off doing simple stuff for you and charging you a lot for the privilege. They don't want people upgrading HDD's because they could be doing that for you and charging you a huge sum for it.

Without excusing apple they do tend to use mobile parts in their computers which put price up a bit and like all shops take a cut of a service charge. Yes they do overcharge for both and it is stupid you cant upgrade yourself

[QUOTE=Jehla;2683802]
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cei


And on pro apple sites the commenter's are blind to any issues on mac equipment. For example the playbook recall due to software, many people are in stitches about how foolish RIM has been. I remember though when I bought my iphone4 that for a good while calls would often end because the screen would activate and my face would touch the "end call" button.

To be fair the playbook isn't even out here so we cant say we've discovered the same issues.
j1o2h3n4 17th May 2011, 03:11 Quote
Apple is milking the apple community.
outlawaol 17th May 2011, 05:46 Quote
Hmm... well, glad I dont own any Apple products at all. And simply put glad I never was able to get into them (and by able I mean my parents couldnt afford the darn things, hence why PC users are more common imo).

Hi, I'm a PC. :)
leveller 17th May 2011, 08:10 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by j1o2h3n4
Apple is juicing the apple community.

Fixed! ;)
maximus09 17th May 2011, 09:39 Quote
sales must have started dropping off due to consumers tightening their purse strings, hence they would rather upgrade than buy a whole new iMac. So obviously they want more control and money over that process.

I'm sure the most tech-savvy Mac users will find a way ;)
will_123 17th May 2011, 09:49 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by Spreadie
TBH, I couldn't give a toss about Apple screwing their iMac customers.

If people insist on paying over the odds for a computer that is little more than a fashion item, they deserve to be fleeced at every turn. :p


[edit] *Shamelessly nicked from another forum*
Quote:
Charlie Brooker:
Macs are glorified Fisher-Price activity centres for adults; computers for scaredy cats too nervous to learn how proper computers work; computers for people who earnestly believe in feng shui.

:)

I really would like to know why Macs are kiddies toys. You obviously sporting a Mac makes you computer illiterate....would love for you to explain that one....

I have a MacBook Pro and it is one of the best things I have ever bought. Its BSD with a beautiful GUI in top why would I not want it. Its about 10 times better than the mess that is windows 7 anyway

Yours sincerely loving Mac User. xxx
lamboman 17th May 2011, 10:15 Quote
I wouldn't say that the initial price for some machines is too high.

However, those of you that are using the excuse of mobile parts and labour are missing the point. The fact is, you can't upgrade your own system. It's really as simple as that. The fact is it's a basic part that should be user replaceable.

And we can upgrade our own drives in many laptops. To me, that finishes the argument altogether. It runs hot? Design around that, like every other all-in-one out there.

Desktop processor? Laptops running desktop processors fair fine hard drive replacements...

Sent from my Desire HD
Ergath 17th May 2011, 10:30 Quote
The most annoying thing about Apple for me is the feats of hyperbole that iFans reach in describing their precious investments. It's like there's a commandment " thou shalt not speak of the works of the blessed JOBS without using the word beautiful at least once"

In fairness I think this article is a bit of a non-issue, in that most iMac users just want a nice computer and see Apple as the premium choice. Like most people they will very rarely think about the spec until something goes wrong, which it probably won't (for a few years.)

Personally I'll stick with "the mess that is Windows 7" thanks.
veato 17th May 2011, 11:20 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ergath
The most annoying thing about Apple for me is the feats of hyperbole that iFans reach in describing their precious investments. It's like there's a commandment " thou shalt not speak of the works of the blessed JOBS without using the word beautiful at least once"

In fairness I think this article is a bit of a non-issue, in that most iMac users just want a nice computer and see Apple as the premium choice. Like most people they will very rarely think about the spec until something goes wrong, which it probably won't (for a few years.)

Personally I'll stick with "the mess that is Windows 7" thanks.

I just bought an iMac and genuinely did not see it as a 'premium choice'. My thinking from the outset was that I wanted a 27" IPS monitor. That meant the Dell Ultrasharp. If I added onto that the Bit-Tech "enthusiast" base PC plus the few bits it's missing (OS, webcam, speakers, etc) as I need a whole new PC the price difference was nothing or near as makes no difference.

On that basis I could choose a custom build which a) I expect would perform a little better even though the specs are extremely closely matched and b) would allow incremental upgrades OR an iMac which can't be incrementally upgraded but will be silent, small and I hate to admit it a lot better looking in a modern lounge than a PC.

The so called premium product or increase cost were found not factors and/or false.

I'm not daft though. At no point did I think once I had an iMac I'd be pulling the screen off to get to the innards. I'd be amazed if anyone buys an iMac on the illusion they can upgrade/replace the parts to be honest.

If you want to tinker/replace/upgrade then you'd be stupid to buy an all-in-one regardless of brand, Apple or not IMO.
Guinness 17th May 2011, 11:58 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by veato
1)
I am amused at the anti-imac comments tho. I've got a 27" IPS 2560x1440 monitor with a sandy bridge 3.1ghz, 8gb RAM and a 6790M (near as damn it a 6850) for no real extra cost than what it would cost a 'real' pc of the same spec. Not bad for a toy ;)

That's a careless comment. Not even the most die-hard Apple fan would dare to claim that an imac offers value for money!
Building your own pc to a greater spec than your imac would save you £300-400. Plus it would be overclockable, graphically more potent (enabling you to actually play games at that res) and be upgradable!


And on the topic of upgrading, who gives a monkies! If someone is happy to spend over the odds for a slice of apple iPie, I doubt they want to/know how to upgrade and will probably be happy to take their broken mac to an authorized repair centre.
impar 17th May 2011, 12:12 Quote
Greetings!
Quote:
Originally Posted by veato
The so called premium product or increase cost were found not factors and/or false.
You are not factoring the... "locked" aspect.
If you had bought a normal PC you would be able to upgrade it for years. With the iMac you are locked to that configuration, unless you pay what Apple wants.
With a PC you would be selling your old parts for 100 and buying new better parts for 200, keeping the PC updated. With the iMac you are married to it.
veato 17th May 2011, 12:22 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by Guinness
That's a careless comment. Not even the most die-hard Apple fan would dare to claim that an imac offers value for money!
Building your own pc to a greater spec than your imac would save you £300-400. Plus it would be overclockable, graphically more potent (enabling you to actually play games at that res) and be upgradable!


And on the topic of upgrading, who gives a monkies! If someone is happy to spend over the odds for a slice of apple iPie, I doubt they want to/know how to upgrade and will probably be happy to take their broken mac to an authorized repair centre.


Do the math then. You build a Core i5, 4GB, 6970M (6850), 64bit pro OS, and all the rest of the bits to make a full PC the same spec as an iMac (remember the monitor).

Like I said I used Bit-techs enthusiast build + the additional stuff to make it up to a full PC + a Dell Ultrasharp 27" IPS. Price came out the same. I'm not lying! :)

An admittedly quick calculation shows (prices from Overclockers)

Dell U2711 £665.99
Bit-Tech PC £645
OS £114.98
Logitech Wireless Keyb/Mouse MK520 £35.99
Logitech Speakers X-140 £16.99
MS LifeCam 720p Cam £36.76

= £1515.71

Which is more than I paid for the top 27" off-the-shelf built and supported iMac (with discount) or not a great deal less than the full RRP.

Feel free to do better. Build a like-for-like spec.
veato 17th May 2011, 12:28 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by impar
Greetings!

You are not factoring the... "locked" aspect.
If you had bought a normal PC you would be able to upgrade it for years. With the iMac you are locked to that configuration, unless you pay what Apple wants.
With a PC you would be selling your old parts for 100 and buying new better parts for 200, keeping the PC updated. With the iMac you are married to it.

But I dont need to keep it updated. I'm not a gamer who needs to upgrade my gfx card every year. If I decide to upgrade in 3 years time it will still be worth more than £500 which will go to the cost of any upgrade. The only difference is I'm replacing the whole system and not a few individual components.

**edit

although after three years with technology moving on like CPU socket types, RAM speeds, etc a fuller upgrade might be required for a PC. e.g. my Q6600 isnt all that old and I was resigned to a full upgrade this year
impar 17th May 2011, 12:41 Quote
Greetings!
Quote:
Originally Posted by veato
The only difference is I'm replacing the whole system and not a few individual components.
So you see a computer as any other electric appliance (a dish washing machine, a vacuum cleaner, etc) you replace it when it gets older\stops working for another one?
veato 17th May 2011, 12:47 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by impar
Greetings!

So you see a computer as any other electric appliance (a dish washing machine, a vacuum cleaner, etc) you replace it when it gets older\stops working for another one?


A laptop, tablet, netbook or all-in-one.... yes of course. And that's got nothing to do with the brand or the OS it's running. They're simply not designed to be upgraded for the most part beyond RAM/HDD upgrades.

A desktop windows based PC.... possibly not. Depends on the current spec, who's using it, what it's for and how far technology has moved on since it was bought/built.

I used to regualrily upgrade my own retaining as much as possible but at some point the whole lot had to go e.g. when I moved from Opteron 146 to Q6600.
will_123 17th May 2011, 14:33 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ergath
The most annoying thing about Apple for me is the feats of hyperbole that iFans reach in describing their precious investments. It's like there's a commandment " thou shalt not speak of the works of the blessed JOBS without using the word beautiful at least once"

In fairness I think this article is a bit of a non-issue, in that most iMac users just want a nice computer and see Apple as the premium choice. Like most people they will very rarely think about the spec until something goes wrong, which it probably won't (for a few years.)

Personally I'll stick with "the mess that is Windows 7" thanks.

Im not a "iFan" i just like OSX plain and simple. You stick whatever you want I really don't give damn and ill describe my purchases wherever I want tbh and if it annoys you ill do it even more.
will_123 17th May 2011, 14:33 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ergath
The most annoying thing about Apple for me is the feats of hyperbole that iFans reach in describing their precious investments. It's like there's a commandment " thou shalt not speak of the works of the blessed JOBS without using the word beautiful at least once"

In fairness I think this article is a bit of a non-issue, in that most iMac users just want a nice computer and see Apple as the premium choice. Like most people they will very rarely think about the spec until something goes wrong, which it probably won't (for a few years.)

Personally I'll stick with "the mess that is Windows 7" thanks.

Im not a "iFan" i just like OSX plain and simple. You stick whatever you want I really don't give damn and ill describe my purchases wherever I want tbh and if it annoys you ill do it even more.
will_123 17th May 2011, 14:36 Quote
Sorry for the double post. Phone went mental.
Deders 17th May 2011, 14:40 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by will_123
Sorry for the double post. Phone went mental.

iPhone?
will_123 17th May 2011, 15:29 Quote
Haha. No fortunately not. Its a Desire HD with CyogenMod
Guinness 17th May 2011, 16:14 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by veato
Quote:
Originally Posted by Guinness
That's a careless comment. Not even the most die-hard Apple fan would dare to claim that an imac offers value for money!
Building your own pc to a greater spec than your imac would save you £300-400. Plus it would be overclockable, graphically more potent (enabling you to actually play games at that res) and be upgradable!


And on the topic of upgrading, who gives a monkies! If someone is happy to spend over the odds for a slice of apple iPie, I doubt they want to/know how to upgrade and will probably be happy to take their broken mac to an authorized repair centre.


Do the math then. You build a Core i5, 4GB, 6970M (6850), 64bit pro OS, and all the rest of the bits to make a full PC the same spec as an iMac (remember the monitor).

Like I said I used Bit-techs enthusiast build + the additional stuff to make it up to a full PC + a Dell Ultrasharp 27" IPS. Price came out the same. I'm not lying! :)

An admittedly quick calculation shows (prices from Overclockers)

Dell U2711 £665.99
Bit-Tech PC £645
OS £114.98
Logitech Wireless Keyb/Mouse MK520 £35.99
Logitech Speakers X-140 £16.99
MS LifeCam 720p Cam £36.76

= £1515.71

Which is more than I paid for the top 27" off-the-shelf built and supported iMac (with discount) or not a great deal less than the full RRP.

Feel free to do better. Build a like-for-like spec.


I cant comment on how much you paid, but a 27" iMac with an Intel Core i5 3.1GHz with HD 6970M, 4Gb RAM and a 1TB HDD currently retails at £1649.00

Bittech's Gaming Workhorse system (minus the SSD)    £815    (maybe a 6950 2gb for an extra £10 - softmod anyone?)
Dell 27" IPS    £666
Windows 7 64bit HP    £60.00    (why Pro?)
Logitech webcam    <£15    (really?)
Cheapy speakers    <£20
Decent mouse+keyboard combo    £50
Total:    £1636

Factor in even a mild overclock and it would tear the iMac a new one.  How do you them them Apples? :D
veato 17th May 2011, 17:21 Quote
Home edition would not be equivalent to OS X

Cheapy speakers/cam dont reflect the spec of those included with the Mac so nowhere near like for like

No delivery charges (build or support I dont worry about either)

Mac was just over £1400 too (your parts aren't RRP and mine aren't either)

"tearing a new one" was never disputed either. I said an almost identical spec self build PC costs around the same.
iggy 17th May 2011, 17:23 Quote
mwaaaaah
wuyanxu 17th May 2011, 17:25 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by iggy
mwaaaaah
Quote:
The crux of the issue comes when trying to replace the included hard disk with another - this now results in the hard disk bay cooling fan spinning up to full, ear-splitting speed (up to 5,600rpm according to another source).

;)

mwaaaah you ninja edited!
hexx 17th May 2011, 17:33 Quote
so everybody who cries here has got **** all to do with it, aren't you all PC users btw???
Guinness 17th May 2011, 18:34 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by veato
Home edition would not be equivalent to OS X

Cheapy speakers/cam dont reflect the spec of those included with the Mac so nowhere near like for like

No delivery charges (build or support I dont worry about either)

Mac was just over £1400 too (your parts aren't RRP and mine aren't either)

"tearing a new one" was never disputed either. I said an almost identical spec self build PC costs around the same.


The fact remains that at current retail prices, a 27" iMac with an Intel Core i5 3.1GHz with HD 6970M, 4Gb RAM and a 1TB HDD is £1649.

Tot up the kit Scan/Overclocker/Ebuyer. Include yourself copy of Windows 7 Pro, a fancy webcam and some dishy speakers. Add delivery. How far do you come in under £1650?

"An almost identical self build" will currently save you lots of money!


But.... for arguments sake lets say they did cost the same, you still face the issue we are discussing here. Apple are trying their best to prevent expansion or upgrade.

Dont think I'm Apple bashing here. Any all-in-one PC, regardless of brand, faces the same limited expansion and upgradeability. Its just worse with apple for the reasons stated in the article (and many of the above comments).  As an enthusiast I would never choose or recommend one.
veato 17th May 2011, 19:22 Quote
I never once argued against all-in-ones having limited expansion and upgradability!

(P.S. for arguments sake I've still yet to see [as I showed with Bits Enthusiast PC+U2711+extras] the same spec as the iMac including monitor and quality peripherals for considerably cheaper)
ferret141 17th May 2011, 22:15 Quote
Vive la IBM PC!
Bakes 17th May 2011, 22:23 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by veato
I never once argued against all-in-ones having limited expansion and upgradability!

(P.S. for arguments sake I've still yet to see [as I showed with Bits Enthusiast PC+U2711+extras] the same spec as the iMac including monitor and quality peripherals for considerably cheaper)

I totally agree. Apple are doing a good job on making their devices competitive - long gone are the days when £1500 would by you a PC that could be bought for £800.
metarinka 18th May 2011, 07:47 Quote
I own an apple laptop, there is definitely a price premium, but i've been extremely happy with it.

like any sane bit-techer, I built myself a pc gaming rig and would never go mac for a desktop.
Guinness 18th May 2011, 12:18 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by veato
I never once argued against all-in-ones having limited expansion and upgradability!

(P.S. for arguments sake I've still yet to see [as I showed with Bits Enthusiast PC+U2711+extras] the same spec as the iMac including monitor and quality peripherals for considerably cheaper)

The trouble is... that Bittech Enthusiast system you keep quoting is comprised of good quality enthusiast level hardware with overclocking in mind (3.3GHz K-series Core i5, modular power supply, aftermarket cpu cooler etc). It is not comparable to your iMac!

Courtesy of Scan (other etailers are available!):
Dell 27" IPS    £665.12
Intel Core i5 2400 3.1GHz    £142.98
Asus P8H61-M    £57.13    (no overclocking)
Corsair PC3-12800 4GB    £39.74
MSI 6850 OC    £125.62
Samsung F3 1TB HDD   £39.53
Corsair CX430 PSU   £35.32
Antec One Hundred case   £41.27
Keysonic KSK-8020HM keyboard   £29.98
Microsoft InteliMouse    £16.16
Creative T10 2.0 speakers    £32.04
Logitech 1080p webcam    £64.79
Windows 7 HP    £70.88
Delivery    £20.00
Total    £1397.71

So including an OS, a nice set of speakers, a 1080p webcam, an alu keyboard, a decent mouse and delivery you still save over £250 compared to the current retail cost of the 27" iMac!
veato 18th May 2011, 13:27 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by Guinness
The trouble is... that Bittech Enthusiast system you keep quoting is comprised of good quality enthusiast level hardware with overclocking in mind (3.3GHz K-series Core i5, modular power supply, aftermarket cpu cooler etc). It is not comparable to your iMac!

Courtesy of Scan (other etailers are available!):
Dell 27" IPS    £665.12
Intel Core i5 2400 3.1GHz    £142.98
Asus P8H61-M    £57.13    (no overclocking)
Corsair PC3-12800 4GB    £39.74
MSI 6850 OC    £125.62
Samsung F3 1TB HDD   £39.53
Corsair CX430 PSU   £35.32
Antec One Hundred case   £41.27
Keysonic KSK-8020HM keyboard   £29.98
Microsoft InteliMouse    £16.16
Creative T10 2.0 speakers    £32.04
Logitech 1080p webcam    £64.79
Windows 7 HP    £70.88
Delivery    £20.00
Total    £1397.71

So including an OS, a nice set of speakers, a 1080p webcam, an alu keyboard, a decent mouse and delivery you still save over £250 compared to the current retail cost of the 27" iMac!

MS Intellimouse versus Magic Mouse? You're having a laugh! And the OS is still HP??

With those ignored though it's still proved my point for me! You're now only £80 less than what I paid for the iMac. So considering it fits my needs, I don't have to build or support it, comes with a great software package and no AV is required the iMac is good value in the like-for-like comparison.
fingerbob69 18th May 2011, 13:57 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by veato
MS Intellimouse versus Magic Mouse? You're having a laugh! And the OS is still HP??

With those ignored though it's still proved my point for me! You're now only £80 less than what I paid for the iMac. So considering it fits my needs, I don't have to build or support it, comes with a great software package and no AV is required the iMac is good value in the like-for-like comparison.

Until you want to upgrade it, at which point an hdd upgrade, for example, will cost you somewhere north of £200 over an equivelent non-Apple hdd ...and you'll have to get an offical repairer to do it for you.

Oh, and that 27" screen comes in glossy only so I hope you like your reflection.
veato 18th May 2011, 14:07 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by fingerbob69
Until you want to upgrade it, at which point an hdd upgrade, for example, will cost you somewhere north of £200 over an equivelent non-Apple hdd ...and you'll have to get an offical repairer to do it for you.

Oh, and that 27" screen comes in glossy only so I hope you like your reflection.

JFC

How many times do I have to say it. i KNOW the iMac is not upgradable. I am purely talking about the cost difference between buying a new PC (self build) and equivalent iMac, which as shown above by another poster at most comes to (from what I paid) £80 difference - although you could still argue over spec of mouse, etc and the perceived value in having support, free delivery and not having to build.

At no point have I ever said an iMac is upgradable. In fact I've said quite the opposite.
Deders 18th May 2011, 14:21 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by veato
not having to build.

Where's the fun in that?
Guinness 18th May 2011, 14:40 Quote
MS Intellimouse versus Magic Mouse? You're having a laugh! And the OS is still HP??

With those ignored though it's still proved my point for me! You're now only £80 less than what I paid for the iMac. So considering it fits my needs, I don't have to build or support it, comes with a great software package and no AV is required the iMac is good value in the like-for-like comparison.[/QUOTE]

On the topic of operating system, since no Windows OS is directly comparable to OS X I see no point in wasting money on the extra "Pro" features that wont be used. I assume CustomPC mag only recommends Home Premium for the very same reason, even on its Elite build.

I'm glad it suits your needs. But I'm not disputing how suitable the system is for you. I am, however, disputing your claim that an iMac offers good value for money in comparison to like-for-like a self build.
It may not be good value compared to what you paid for you iMac. But what you paid is totally irrelevant for everyone else. If you got a good deal then whoopee for you! But it will currently cost anyone £1649.00.

So at CURRENT RETAIL PRICES (to avoid confusion: the prices you can currently purchase these products at from Apple and Scan/Ebuyer/Overclocks etc), the iMac does NOT represent good value in a like-for-like comparison with a self build.

This is all the more apparent when you consider the kind of system you could build (including a pointlessly expensive webcam and peripherals) for £1650. And to hammer the point of this article home, most PC users could UPGRADE their current system, re-using key components and saving money.
faugusztin 18th May 2011, 14:51 Quote
The issue with Macs is not just the initial price (which is pretty low in UK btw, in germany the same model is 1649 euros and here in Slovakia it's even more), but the upgrade prices. You can't put any ordinary stuff in mac, you need to buy "Apple" stuff. Do you want a SSD ? You can't have one, unless you buy the apple one. It's just a 500€ extra for a 256GB drive, on top of 60€ price of 1TB HDD drive. You can get a Vertex 3 for that price, and you can bet SSD from Apple will have inferior specs compared to Vertex 3. Same in case of memory upgrade,...
fingerbob69 18th May 2011, 16:10 Quote
"At no point have I ever said an iMac is upgradable." ...which for a computer is a useful and good thing to be!

Apple are a hardware vendor, not a software vendor. This is a first attempt to close off a route by which Apple customers can buy hardware outside Apple's wall paradise.

Just wait til Thunderbolt becomes the sole means of connecting peripherals.
Cei 18th May 2011, 17:32 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by fingerbob69
"At no point have I ever said an iMac is upgradable." ...which for a computer is a useful and good thing to be!

Apple are a hardware vendor, not a software vendor. This is a first attempt to close off a route by which Apple customers can buy hardware outside Apple's wall paradise.

Just wait til Thunderbolt becomes the sole means of connecting peripherals.

If you're buying an all-in-one, I think you're accepting a lack of upgradability compared to a tower, no matter if you're buying an Apple, Sony, Lenovo or whatever. Some people don't care about being able to stick in a new GPU - my mum for example wouldn't know what a GTX 560Ti was if it was right in front of her, much less how to install one.

Apple are hardware and software. Pretty hard to claim they don't make software when they make a major OS for computers, another major OS for phones/tablets, professional and consumer level video/photography/music/coding software (FCP, Aperture, Logic, Xcode, iLife), industry-wide software platforms (QuickTime) and office tools (iWork).

As for Thunderbolt becoming the only I/O? Even Apple aren't that silly. They'll keep USB, audio ports etc.
veato 18th May 2011, 18:24 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by Guinness


So at CURRENT RETAIL PRICES (to avoid confusion: the prices you can currently purchase these products at from Apple and Scan/Ebuyer/Overclocks etc), the iMac does NOT represent good value in a like-for-like comparison with a self build.

Yes it does. A build would have cost me the same (or £80 less) and would not do anything more for me than the iMac does. Yet with the iMac I get the added value of small footprint, quiet, etc but lose out on upgradability which I don't want/need.
Yslen 18th May 2011, 18:28 Quote
As if bolting an expensive IPS screen to a load of computer hardware that will be obscelete long before it needs replacing was not bad enough...
impar 18th May 2011, 18:36 Quote
Greetings!
Quote:
Originally Posted by Guinness
The fact remains that at current retail prices, a 27" iMac with an Intel Core i5 3.1GHz with HD 6970M, 4Gb RAM and a 1TB HDD is £1649.
Its 1929€ (~£1703) here. The only thing going for it is the monitor and the looks.
cool_dude 18th May 2011, 20:05 Quote
Thats why i'll never buy a mac.

Macs are great though, never go wrong.... hmm perhaps because you can't install half of the stuff you can install on a windows pc and hackers are targeting the most used o/s rather than a o/s used by a minority who think that Apple are doing them a favour feeling elite but really its pure daylight robbery.

I do like their appearence tho, mind.
Guinness 18th May 2011, 21:47 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by veato
Quote:
Originally Posted by Guinness


So at CURRENT RETAIL PRICES (to avoid confusion: the prices you can currently purchase these products at from Apple and Scan/Ebuyer/Overclocks etc), the iMac does NOT represent good value in a like-for-like comparison with a self build.

Yes it does. A build would have cost me the same (or £80 less) and would not do anything more for me than the iMac does. Yet with the iMac I get the added value of small footprint, quiet, etc but lose out on upgradability which I don't want/need.

you seem to misunderstand me veato, I'm not talking about what you paid. Comparing your discounted MAC to full price pc components is a little unfair.


So at CURRENT RETAIL PRICES (to avoid confusion: the prices you can currently purchase these products at from Apple and Scan/Ebuyer/Overclocks etc), the iMac does NOT represent good value in a like-for-like comparison with a self build.
veato 18th May 2011, 22:22 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by Guinness
you seem to misunderstand me veato, I'm not talking about what you paid. Comparing your discounted MAC to full price pc components is a little unfair.


So at CURRENT RETAIL PRICES (to avoid confusion: the prices you can currently purchase these products at from Apple and Scan/Ebuyer/Overclocks etc), the iMac does NOT represent good value in a like-for-like comparison with a self build.

1. Your components aren't full price. You can shop around for the best prices. That on top of those components not being the original RRP anyway. The monitor alone used to cost over £700 when new.

2. And what I paid is not an unusual discount. Education and work (perks) discounts are quite common
Ergath 18th May 2011, 23:51 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by will_123
Im not a "iFan" i just like OSX plain and simple. You stick whatever you want I really don't give damn and ill describe my purchases wherever I want tbh and if it annoys you ill do it even more.

:) I love you too. Good choice of phone BTW.
Guinness 19th May 2011, 08:14 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by veato
Your components aren't full price.  

Full price? Thats how much they currently cost. RRP has nothing to do with it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by veato
You can shop around for the best prices

I guess thats just another reason to self build! You cant shop around for a Mac!


Quote:
Originally Posted by veato
And what I paid is not an unusual discount. Education and work (perks) discounts are quite common

Common or not, you are still comparing trade/student discounted prices to retail prices including VAT. If average Joe wants a mac, he pays full wack (£1649 in the UK).

So my statement stands: at CURRENT RETAIL PRICES (the prices you can
currently purchase these products at from Apple and
Scan/Ebuyer/Overclocks etc), the iMac does NOT represent good value in a
like-for-like comparison with a self build.




Before you attempt to pick more holes, lets get one thing clear... the two are actually incomparable! Your statement should have been:
A heavily discounted, closed-off, un-upgradable, all-in-one iMac offers good value for money over a retail priced self build with similar but fundamentaly superior specs that is upgradable, customizable and can be repaired with off-the-shelf components.

Like-for-like comparisons are almost impossible and kinda pointless. If you wanted an enthusiast level system that was good for overclocking and gaming you wouldnt have chosen a Mac, regardless of the supposed cost saving!
veato 19th May 2011, 08:46 Quote
In obtaining best value FOR ME how do I not take into account where I can buy something from and if/how I can get any discount?? That's ridiculous. If I'm doing a comparison to determine whether I can get value from a Mac compared to a self build I absolutely have to get the best pricing for both types.

You claim they're not comparable too be for me they absolutely are. In needing a modern, large monitor, light gaming use PC I have compared a self build to an all-in-one in terms of specs and cost. Just because one isn't upgradable over the over does not mean they don't compare in other areas. Once costings are done I can compare the amount of RAM, the CPU, the quality and specs of the monitor, etc etc. Yes self build gets a tick for upgradability and Mac got a tick for silent and space saving but their fundamental differences does not mean they cannot be compared to fit my needs.

"If you wanted an enthusiast level system that was good for overclocking and gaming you wouldnt have chosen a Mac" --- Huh? What's your point? I chose a system based on price and specifications (with the monitor being the most important). Even without overclocking and gaming (although I do like the odd PC game) I still need a fairly powerful system.
Guinness 19th May 2011, 09:00 Quote
I'm not talking about you. As I said, the fact that you got it cheap is great.....for you. If average Joe wants one, a pc self build offers more value for money. Not least because Joe could upgrade, saving the cost of a whole new system.
Guinness 19th May 2011, 09:18 Quote
I'm not talking about you. As I said, the fact that you got it cheap is great.....for you. If average Joe wants one, a pc self build offers more value for money. Not least because Joe could upgrade, saving the cost of a whole new system.
Guinness 19th May 2011, 09:27 Quote
And of course you can compare them to determine which best suits your needs. Just like you could compare a Dyson and a microwave to determine which is best at picking up dust from your carpet.

You can't build an exact equivalent of an iMac (an un-upgradeable mix of laptop and desktop components built into the back of a monitor) so direct comparisons for determining value for money Re pointless.

You can dismiss it all you want, but the fact that a pc is upgradeable adds real monetary value.
veato 19th May 2011, 09:56 Quote
From your point of view!! Yet you ignore the 'added value' of buying Apple! It's ignorance. And your insistence to speak for 'average joe'. How do you know what the average consumer wants? You're approaching this from a one sided view of the gamer/enthusiast/overclocker and not the 'average joe'.
impar 19th May 2011, 10:33 Quote
Greetings!
Quote:
Originally Posted by Guinness
A heavily discounted, closed-off, un-upgradable, all-in-one iMac offers good value for money over a retail priced self build with similar but fundamentaly superior specs that is upgradable, customizable and can be repaired with off-the-shelf components.
You forgot to put the "Its beautiful!".
faugusztin 19th May 2011, 10:35 Quote
Average Joe buys the €400-500 laptop, he doesn't buy a €800 PC, not even talking about €1000+ Macbook, €1200+ iMac.
Guinness 19th May 2011, 10:48 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by veato
From your point of view!! Yet you ignore the 'added value'
of buying Apple! It's ignorance. And your insistence to speak for
'average joe'. How do you know what the average consumer wants? You're
approaching this from a one sided view of the
gamer/enthusiast/overclocker and not the 'average joe'.

Calm down dear!

You know you're right. But take a look at where we are. You're on an
Enthusiast website! The front page is full of component reviews which
mean little to the average Mac user.

"SSD review anyone?"  
"No point thanks, I have to buy from Apple at a premium"

^^^the whole point of this article!


If I were to approach this from a true gamer/enthusiast/overclocker
stand point then things get worse for the Mac:
Gaming at 2560x1440 on OS X with a 6970m, a 3.1GHz stock quad, no
overclocking, no customization, no modding, no dedicated sounds card,
built in speakers, poor cooling, a laptop-style Alu keyboard, no gaming
mouse, no upgrade prospects and it will cost me more money??? Not for
me, ta.

And you've kind of just made my point about the two not really being
comparable. They are designed for different end-users.

Buy an iMac because you like it/you dont want to self build/you cant
self build/it better suits your needs/you've got so much money it doesnt
really matter. No one will care. But suggest an iMac represents good
value against a self build on an enthusiast/overclocking website? Nope.
Guinness 19th May 2011, 11:06 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by faugusztin
Average Joe buys the €400-500 laptop, he doesn't buy a €800 PC, not even talking about €1000+ Macbook, €1200+ iMac.

True. But average Joe reading bittech? Could be a different story.
Ninja_182 19th May 2011, 16:40 Quote
I think its all rooted in Apple wanting to keep their 'reliability' reputation in their own hands. If they keep people's hands out of hardware, they wont have people reporting problems caused by bungled upgrades as 'unreliable Apple hardware'.

Incoming car analogy:
Bungle modifying your engine, engine blows up, hurr durr engine is made of cheese. No it isn't, you just did a bad job and broke it. The same applies to anything more complicated than a hair dryer.
wuyanxu 19th May 2011, 17:08 Quote
speaking of Apple:
http://www.zdnet.com/blog/bott/apple-to-support-reps-do-not-attempt-to-remove-malware/3362
Quote:
AppleCare does not provide support for removal of the malware. You should not confirm or deny whether the customer’s Mac is infected or not.

Do not confirm or deny that any such software has been installed.
Do not attempt to remove or uninstall any malware software.
Do not send any escalations or contact Tier 2 for support about removing the software, or provide impact data.
Do not refer customers to the Apple Retail Store. The ARS does not provide any additional support for malware.

basically: Jobs said our computer is perfect, if there are any customer get infected, keep them in the dark and keep them away from retail stores so we can sell more style-over-function Mac computers.
azrael- 19th May 2011, 21:07 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by veato
From your point of view!! Yet you ignore the 'added value' of buying Apple! It's ignorance. And your insistence to speak for 'average joe'. How do you know what the average consumer wants? You're approaching this from a one sided view of the gamer/enthusiast/overclocker and not the 'average joe'.
Sorry... I'll get my coat... :)
impar 20th May 2011, 10:56 Quote
Greetings!
Quote:
Originally Posted by veato
... I don't have to build or support it, comes with a great software package and no AV is required the iMac is good value in the like-for-like comparison.
Quote:
Malware on the Mac: is there cause for concern? Ars investigates
...
We spoke to another Apple Store Genius, who we'll refer to as Andy, whose store services a couple thousand Macs per week. "There's been a very real uptick in the number of malware instances we've seen," Andy, said, adding that in the past, 0.2 percent of the Macs brought into Andy's store might have a malware problem—"most always DNS trojans."

That has changed in the last three weeks. Nowadays, something like 5.8 percent of machines Andy's store sees have a malware-related issue, almost entirely made up of MAC Defender or some variant.
...
Andy also confirmed that Apple has instructed Geniuses not to remove or repair malware like MAC Defender if they see it—in fact, they can't even acknowledge its existence. An internal memo issued earlier this week, seen by Ars Technica, shows that the MAC Defender "issue" is considered to be "in progress" and lists out what to do if the Genius or AppleCare finds it themselves (determine whether there's an issue with the Apple product itself and leave it at that).
...
http://img852.imageshack.us/img852/6982/macdefender.png
...
Nexxo 20th May 2011, 13:53 Quote
^^^ From the article:
Quote:
It's hard to determine whether the reaction the researchers observed is peculiar or not, as nearly everyone has strong allegiances to a particular product or service, and the test was limited to the Apple brand alone. Still, the fact that something like an iPhone or a computer can create a reaction similar to a hardwired belief system like religion is surprising in its own right.

Ah, it's so nice when the rest of the world finally catches up with what psychologists knew all along...

Surprising? Not at all. I am willing to bet good money, that you'll find the same areas of brain light up when people worship their Jimmy Choo's, their prestige cars, their football club. Heck, I see some serious religious fervour going on right on these here forums when people argue the relative merits of ATi vs. nVidia, AMD vs. Intel and PS3 vs. XBox. Believers, aren't we all?
jrs77 20th May 2011, 14:18 Quote
If you want to keep your warranty, then you need to go to an Apple-store and have new hardware installed by an Apple-technician using parts aproved by Apple.

There's no difference to a car there, so I really can't understand all the outrage.

Either you want those two years warranty, or you go and install a new disk and modify the fan yourself... it's your choice.

And no, I'm not a fanboy. I'm just able to think about stuff without hyperventilating instantly when I hear about a fruit.
veato 25th May 2011, 08:14 Quote
Quote:

That's all very nice. Only I'm not an Apple 'fan'.
azrael- 25th May 2011, 10:57 Quote
Disciple then? :p
veato 26th May 2011, 09:25 Quote
:)

No not even that. This is my first Apple product (prefer HTC sense to anything iOS and have no interest in their locked down tablets either). When I'm defending the Mac I'm not defending Apple, I'm defending my decision to buy one over a self build as it made more financial sense for my needs.
Bakes 26th May 2011, 12:02 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by veato
:)

No not even that. This is my first Apple product (prefer HTC sense to anything iOS and have no interest in their locked down tablets either). When I'm defending the Mac I'm not defending Apple, I'm defending my decision to buy one over a self build as it made more financial sense for my needs.

But why do you feel the need to defend it, anyway? I'm not criticizing your decision here, I have a Mac, I also have a gaming pc and enjoy using both of them - in fact I probably agree with you (but only because 27 inch displays are so damn expensive).

It just seems pretty foolish to be arguing about something on an internet forum, when for you, you know you are right.
veato 26th May 2011, 14:01 Quote
No reason really other than trying to add a balanced opinion to the "zomg Macs are such a rip off" argument.
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