10 times? bollocks to that, I format and rebuild every 2-3 months, (old habits from the 98 days) i think i shall be waiting to see how the hackers start working their way around it.

and as far as I know right now - Ghosting doesn't work with Vista, it's impossible

Originally Posted by Gunsmith
10 times? bollocks to that, I format and rebuild every 2-3 months, (old habits from the 98 days)

I'm glad I'm not the only one that kept the format every 3 months or so habit ;)

Cool my thread got a link in an article, the pride!! :o

This is better than was previously mentioned obviously, 10 times will be enough for most of us upgraders. My XP has probably been through maybe 7 major changes.

Not perfect but better would be my feeling

Originally Posted by Gunsmith
10 times? bollocks to that, I format and rebuild every 2-3 months, (old habits from the 98 days) i think i shall be waiting to see how the hackers start working their way around it.

Going by the article, re-Installing just to keep the system clean shouldn't be a problem.

Windows Vista will not require a system re-activation unless the hard drive and one other component is changed.

You only need to re-activate if you change a HD and another component. which theoretically would allow for 10+ upgrades over the life of the PC.

While 10 times is a substantial number for most users, this is still BS. I paid for it, I should be able to use it/reinstall it as I see fit. If I bought a one user/one PC license then, even if I want to reinstall it every week, I should be able to use it without any limits. I'm an IT Manager and with some of our test stations, 10 rebuilds in one year is definitely a possibility.

Please read the article (and the post above yours), you only re-activate when the hard drive AND another component are changed

Are you really going to change those components more then 10 times?

Originally Posted by TGImages
While 10 times is a substantial number for most users, this is still BS. I paid for it, I should be able to use it/reinstall it as I see fit. If I bought a one user/one PC license then, even if I want to reinstall it every week, I should be able to use it without any limits. I'm an IT Manager and with some of our test stations, 10 rebuilds in one year is definitely a possibility.

I'd have to agree here. This goes back to the old question: Are we buying software, or renting it? Though I applaud MS getting out of the habit of that ridiculous activation scheme that it had going for XP, putting a hard limit on how many times I should be allowed to move my installation is not really fair. Fortunately, by the time anyone likely hits activation #10, a hack will surely have been perfected.

Let me think of the items that have been changed in my pc since my last install...

3 new hard drives (2 of which were C:)
about 5 new opticals
2 new motherboards
3 new graphics cards
Ram, changed twice
PSU (The old one set on fire)
Sound card.

I'm not sure if I have changed processor... I may have... not 100%...

(I still have my original NIC. rarr!)

Now I'm rather glad I use 2k rather then XP because I've had to do precicely zip in order to change all that hardware other then change the drivers over, and physically install it.

I personally can't see me migrating to Vista any time soon as it looks more limiting then XP with no upside, (higher hardware requirements with no added functionality) which looks pretty weak compared to 2k tbh.

Can't help but think that microsoft should be forced to buy back the licence after the 10 instances get used up.
If microsoft no longer want their custom then they should at least pay back the money the consumer payed for its software.

Originally Posted by DougEdey
Please read the article (and the post above yours), you only re-activate when the hard drive AND another component are changed

Are you really going to change those components more then 10 times?

So you don't need to active when you do a fresh install? Wow, who knew that M$ could keep your activation data on the HD, even surviving a format.

Upgrading a video card, will not require activation, nor will ram, cpu, soundcard, etc. Those things don't require reinstallation either.

Unfortunately, from the limited information given above (and drawing parallels with XP's activation scheme) it's entirely possible (and I would say likely) that Vista will require activation upon installation. That could then count towards your total of "10".

The only thing I could see that *might* let you get around this, is the ability to backup your activation info before you format/reinstall, and then import it back into the system. Do we know if Vista will support something like that?

I think it's still a good idea to be critical. The EULA definitely did not say what the M$ rep is reporting, so this "change" is in direct response to all our compliants, which is good. We have to stay vocal, to keep Microsoft honest.

Aggies

So... You put as many old components as you can on the new motherboard, including your old hard drive, and re-install. The hard drive hasn't changed, so re-activation isn't required. Then, you swap in the new hard drive, re-re-install. Again, re-activation isn't required, as nothing but the hard drive has changed. Then, you start swapping in componments.

Easy enough, just takes time.

so Dark your on 3 changes, not 10, big wow, and you had your system how long?

to computer sys admin : i doubt the enterprise version etc that you will be deploying over your networks will have this issue so it wont really matter to you

to bit-tech geek people that build fun systems to test : you could get the afore mentioned enterprise one to allow this.

to people that build new computers every week : if you buy a broom , then change its handle, and a week later change its brush, it is _NOT_ the same broom, ergo, if you change your hard drive, and your motherboard, ZOMG! its _NOT_ the same PC -- you could quite easily have just built it and tried to install windows on it keeping your old one up and running at the same time. Stop flaming MS for just trying to sell a product, after all thats ALL it is, all politics about MS asside, its a company, it has to make money, and to be fair, its being rather nice about it, it could set it to 1 as .. it IS there software.

Originally Posted by Buzzons


to people that build new computers every week : if you buy a broom , then change its handle, and a week later change its brush, it is _NOT_ the same broom, ergo, if you change your hard drive, and your motherboard, ZOMG! its _NOT_ the same PC -- you could quite easily have just built it and tried to install windows on it keeping your old one up and running at the same time. Stop flaming MS for just trying to sell a product, after all thats ALL it is, all politics about MS asside, its a company, it has to make money, and to be fair, its being rather nice about it, it could set it to 1 as .. it IS there software.

An MS apologist? Here??!

I regard myself as buying some software. Microsoft regard it as me loaning some software for a fee. OK, I can accept that, I suppose. But MS say that I can only use it on one PC - ever.

Hang on! Even the scum-sucking pigs at EA dont try that kind of trick. They at least allow me to re-install their software on a new PC. And again on a new PC after that.

When I hire a chainsaw I dont need to nominate which bit of tree or hitchhiker I'm going to cut up. When I hire a car, I'm not limited to driving it on the A1; I can drive it wherever I want. If I buy a DVD from Disney (er.. for example), I'm not obliged to only watch it on the one DVD player. I'm not allowed to copy it, but I can play it where the hell I want to. If I buy some fluffy dice for my car, I can change cars or even put it in my wife's car.

Yes, Microsoft is there to make money, but it has a responsibility not to exploit its customer base with draconian licensing clauses.

CJM

Let the Linux gaming begin.

as .. it IS there software.

wrong. I purchased it FROM them. Its mine now. What I do with it in my home is none of MS's business so long as I'm not redistributing it over the net. If I buy a new dvd player is it only usable with my current tv? Do I have to ask permission to use it on another tv? Any company that says a software license is different from hardware and can be differently limited is just greedy and wants to rip off its own paying customers. plain and simple. I'm NOT going to purchase a 400$ vista license TWICE! If MS says I can't reinstall it on the eleventh time I will just find a workaround. And I will sleep like a baby. I dare a jury to punish me for USING the software I legitimately purchased. The fact is this licensing crap as far as I know has not really been tested in courts when there is no piracy involved and its just a legitimate user trying to use legitimately purchased software. Honestly, I don't think it will really hold up in court.

Let the Linux gaming begin.

I'm hearing some good reviews of that new CrossOver software for playing WoW and other windows apps on linux. With faster procs with more cores the overhead of wine based apps is not so much a problem and the performance hit can be negligible. maybe someday soon even hardcore gamers can switch to linux with no loss of quality.

Originally Posted by TGImages
While 10 times is a substantial number for most users, this is still BS. I paid for it, I should be able to use it/reinstall it as I see fit. If I bought a one user/one PC license then, even if I want to reinstall it every week, I should be able to use it without any limits. I'm an IT Manager and with some of our test stations, 10 rebuilds in one year is definitely a possibility.

Did you even read the article? You only have to reactivate if you change the hard drive and one other component. Therefore, you can keep reinstalling Windows once every week if you wish.

Originally Posted by Lazarus Dark
...its just a legitimate user trying to use legitimately purchased software.

Microsoft used to have little or no precaution against abuse of the licence. What happened? Millions abused it and bragged about their abuse as though they'd done something clever. :(

To fit a burglar alarm doesn't imply you're treating everybody as criminals, it's a logical precaution because so many people are bent. Blame the bent people, not the people who fit alarms.

Every re-format changes the VSN (though you can change it back) and wipes the local activation files, which might be why MS say "the HDD and any other component" would come into the total permitted, whereas HDD reformat only wouldn't. Seems logical, even better than current, providing the checker is reset every few months so I can upgrade HDD in January and something else in April without a hiccup. :?

Originally Posted by Lazarus Dark
wrong. I purchased it FROM them. Its mine now.

And herein is the crux of the matter. You are correct and wrong at the same time.

You did purchase it from them. And it is yours. And always will be.

The problem is it is not the software; it is the use of the software under the conditions laid out in the EULA.

I'm pleased that MS are saying that by and large we won't be affected, but the real issue is that they *could* shaft you at any time. They decide if/when you are able to re-activate.

Originally Posted by cjmwork2
I'm pleased that MS are saying that by and large we won't be affected, but the real issue is that they *could* shaft you at any time. They decide if/when you are able to re-activate.

They would never do it, Microsoft has had the power to ID every single Illegal copy of XP that was ever connected to the internet, the reason they dont do it, is because it would destroy them, and its probably illegal.

If this Hard disk + one other is true, does that means you could change everything except the hard disk and be ok? or you could change the Harddisk and nothing else.

Re-installing vista after change some items i doubt would count to the 10 activations, as long as it wasnt the Hard disk + 1. I suspect that Hardware IDs would be used to create some kind of number, that number would be used apon activation and if it showed that the things have not changed outwith there harddisk plus one it wouldnt count to there 10.

Well that convinces me to stay with XP or to just put linux back on it. I am sorry but if I shell out the cash to buy Vista, I should be able to install it as many damn times as I want to. Limiting the number of installs is the most retarded thing I have ever heard and sounds like they are just money grubbing.

Haven't posted here in along time but I have a better idea. How about allowing only a certain number of activations per year? Say like 5?

What if at 10 your HD dies?

then you buy a new hard disk, because as long as you dont change any other piece of hardware i assume you would be ok. (again assuming this hard disk plus one other) thing is true! I doubt its a money grabbing thing, i think its more likely that its to put people off thats going to attempt to pirate it, i think, and this is on no basis other than my own feelings, i think that we will be ok, those that buy a legal RETAIL copy will have nothing to worry about that a quick phone call wont cure.

Has no one heard of the wpa.dbl file? You don't need to reactivate XP if you reinstall it without changing any hardware.

Originally Posted by aggies11
Unfortunately, from the limited information given above (and drawing parallels with XP's activation scheme) it's entirely possible (and I would say likely) that Vista will require activation upon installation. That could then count towards your total of "10".

Perhaps activation works kinda like Steam? I mean, perhaps the activation info is stored online and Windows periodically checks with such info. If your hardware differs significantly (different HD and different somethingelse), it prompts you to reactivate...

Of course I have no clue... but such a method could work, right?

Originally Posted by cjmwork2

You did purchase it from them. And it is yours. And always will be.

The problem is it is not the software; it is the use of the software under the conditions laid out in the EULA.

The EULA can say that I'm giving my immortal soul to MS by installing Windows, or that I have to give them my first born male.

I don't know about the USA, but in European continental law, there's a concept called "Abusive Clause" . More or less, it says that some clauses included in contracts are so abusive towards the consumer that it's irrelevant if he agrees or not when signing them...they are simply invalid.

The software EULAS are a great example of "Abusive clauses". More so, when they come from what effectively is a monopoly ( don't tell me there are alternatives...the EU and USA administrations have already make quite clear that for all intents and purposes, MS sports a quasi-monopoly in the personal OS market). They haven't yet been tested on court, but I have no doubt that, at least in Europe and with the focus on the consumer the EU Commission is sporting lately, the first time they are tested against the law will be the last, as they'll be rendered void of any strength.

So, MS can say you are limited to 10, 2 or 200 upgrades for all I care. I'll get my legitimate copy of Vista. I'll upgrade as much or as little as I fancy. If I ever have any problem reactivating, I'll call to MS Spanish Support and I bet they'll allow me to reactivate with little problem... and if they don't, I'll get a crack. And if the crack is unpractical (because of things like WGA), I'll go to the OCU (Consumers and Users Organization...it's awesome how effective this guys are against big corporations), make a formal complaint and I'll get a new license faster than you can say "take that suckers".

Really people, those living en Europe have loads of EU and local government supported tools and bodies at their disposal...and for the most part, they work pretty well. Just give it a try if MS, Apple or SONY want to shove and excess of trash through your throats ;)

[edit]
BTW, I'm assuming all this discussion is regarding the normal, retail version...if we are talking about OEM versions, things could be slightly different, as after all, you are getting a cheaper version with reduced functionality.

If that's the case, 10 upgrades isn't that bad... with OEM XP, in theory, any motherboard upgrade rendered your license invalid, and the fact is that I haven't heard of anybody whose XP couldn't be reactivated after a MB change
[/edit]

Originally Posted by quack
Has no one heard of the wpa.dbl file? You don't need to reactivate XP if you reinstall it without changing any hardware.

There's an element of urban myth about this one. It's always worth backing that file up in case of corruption, but doing a reformat re-install you may need to make a note of your boot drive VSN and re-number it after formatting, just to keep changes to zero.

Following applies to XP

What about formatting a hard disk?

Two things are recorded for disks: the number of the disk drive itself, and the Volume Serial Number (VSN) of the partition on it.

HINT No. 1: The VSN is part of the data in the partition’s first sector, so it is changed when you reformat the drive. It is worth getting the freeware utility Volume ID to restore the original VSN. Before you reformat, run VOL from a Command Prompt, note the VSN (e.g., 1F2E-3C4B) in the second line. Then, after the reformat and new Windows XP installation, defer the new activation until you have run Volume ID to restore the old VSN, and rebooted. This is not essential — but it saves one of the ‘Yes votes’ against any future hardware change. (If you don’t wish to run this utility, the next best way to obtain the same result would be to delete the old Win XP files from the hard drive before reinstalling, rather than actually reformatting.)

HINT No. 2: Another thing that changes the VSN is converting a FAT 32 partition to NTFS. So, if you upgrade a system using FAT 32 to Windows XP and intend to convert to NTFS, do the conversion before activating the system. Remember, you can wait a while: you have 30 days before you need to activate. The machine’s hardware at the time of the first activation is what counts. Or, if you have already activated, use Volume ID as described in Hint No. 1. If you are doing this after activation, also first back up the WPA.DBL and WPA.BAK files, as described in Hint No. 3 below, and, after completion of the conversion, restore these files and reboot again.

HINT No. 3: It is valuable to back up the two files WPA.DBL and WPA.BAK from the Windows\System32 folder.Then, should they get damaged, or should you do a ‘Repair’ reinstallation of Win XP, these files can be copied back to restore the prior activation status. However, this only works in those limited circumstances. The contents of these two files is matched to the specific Windows setup; therefore, contrary to what many journalists and members of the user community have written in recent months, restoring these files will not restore your activation status following a reformat and clean install.

The disk drive and partition recorded will be the ones that the system has found first when doing the initial activation: normally the one from which the system booted. So, if you change that disk and reinstall Windows to a new partition, you have lost two of the Yes votes. If, though, you add a new hard disk, copy the original partition onto it with an imaging program, and retain the original hard drive as a secondary data disk, it will still be found by a later check. This is because it searches for all disks, and the vote will be Yes in both categories if it finds the original one, with the partition not reformatted.

http://aumha.org/win5/a/wpa.php

I was just in the Vista Presentation that Monarch Computers sponsored. When I mentioned the Bit-Tech article stating; "for example for a major upgrade such as a motherboard change that requires a re-installation - Microsoft will allow you to re-activate up to 10 times." they promptly deleted it without response.

The answer that was given at the presentation when the subject of reactivation came up was; "For the Retail version of Windows Vista you can transfer the OS one time. After that you will need to purchase a new OS."

So were the people behind the presentation were not updated? Or was the Microsoft representative that stated you could re-activate up to 10 times misinformed?

Yeah, I'll need to see specific language regarding this '10 activation limit' in the actual Vista EULA before I believe it. A Microsoft rep can say anything in an interview, but nothing is applicable and enforceable unless it is actually in the agreement.

Originally Posted by cpemma
*snip*

I stand corrected. :)

To be honest, if you can afford to upgrade both your hard disk and another component more than ten times, then I'm sure a new copy of Vista is no problem. Or if you lose 10 drives then maybe your OS installation is the least of your worries.

I'm with MS on this. They have a company to run, and this stops people from abusing their software by installing it on more than one PC at a time. Companies have been doing this through different methods for ages now. How many times have you gone to play a game and been told to insert the disk before you can play it? Did you complain? No. So would you rather have to insert a Vista CD every time you switched on your PC? Didn't think so. To be frank with you, this is probably the best way of doing it. Do you have a better way that _won't_ make Microsoft, the consumer or anyone else lose out? If you do, I'd sure like to hear it.

_C

i agree it had to be done "IF" this 10 + 1 thing is true that is! if not, than its excessive and does not justify the huge difference in price between OEM and Retail. Its a shame, ive been using Vista for ages, and since RC1 ive been using it as my main OS and its great, i turned all that 3D guff off, and everything works great, its fast an snappy, a lot easier to get about, by default its more secure and gives you a heap more control over network sharing. I will be streching myself to upgrade my hardware soon, i wouldnt be able to afford a new OS every other instal

Hi all. I'm new to this forum. I normally hang out at overclockers forums. There is a bunch of questions surrounding the supposed 10 reactivation limit and the EULA that is still posted on the Microsoft site. The EULA still states that there is one transfer allowed. Is there anyway a guy could get the name of the rep, and where to get ahold of him/her for an official statement? Not that I doubt Bit-Tech's word but Having this rep send us an e-mail or some form of written confirmation would go a long way on our site.

TBH honest on what heard and seen of vista, it aint worth the cash or the waste of a dodgy DVD, I have 2 machines, one which I upgrade and another which is old ao vista would not even run. Sorry sticking to XP, don't think i'll even want to hold vista in my hands, and this is coming from someone who has had almost every version of Windows since 3.1

(had 3.1, 3.11, 95, 95b, 95 w/USB support, 98, 98se, Me, 2000 and XP)

Regards
GiGo

if this upgrage business is sorted out there really isnt any reason not to change, everything is better, someone mentioned driver support being crap, i almost choked when i read that because apart from my soundblaster live everything works without the need to go hunting around to product sites, my Epson 915 printer is not supported in XP64 Epson say they will never make a 64bit driver, yet in Vista 64 it installs it by default!

For people mentioning how much RAM it uses and how its a huge hogg blar blar, i would recomend that they give it a go, because whilst it does "take" more RAM the way it uses it, the way it can free it up is a massive improvment on XP, the page file is finally being used correctly where only infrequent info is placed.

Theres a much better system inplace for stability, once the initial auto defrag is over the system is much more responsive, ive not found anything thats worse than XP yet, the new start menu is a god send, pat on the back for whoever thought that thing up.

I'll admit ive turned off the 3D stuff, why? becuase i have no use for it, it makes no difference to how most power users work, if your OS choice is on how something looks then i suggest you get a Mac, thats not to say its bad, it actually looks lovely, its just not something i give a damn about

BUT

all of the goodness in this OS will go to waste if this licence business doesnt get sorted to my liking, i spend a fortune on upgrading, in many cases i buy the fastest gear i can afford to keep the system running longer, i cant afford a new OS every other upgrade. Just dont slag off a system youve "heard" is crap thats all, becuase most of the problems i help in the beta community with are old legacy hardware related, an whos fault is that.

I still don't like that MS is going to limit the registration (or what ever) for 10 times only.