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Unpaid students building PS4s at Foxconn

Unpaid students building PS4s at Foxconn

Foxconn has frequently made headlines due to its poor record of working conditions.

Infamous Chinese electronics factory Foxconn is reportedly using thousands of unpaid IT and engineering students to build Playstation 4s in its plant.

Chinese news reports translated by Games in Asia say that the students are unpaid interns being made to match the long hours of regular Foxconn staff. An internal investigation by the plant also revealed that they are being assigned night shifts and overtime against the company’s policy.

To make matters worse, the internship is apparently part of their course, and students refusing participation in the placement are threatened with losing course credits. Additionally, some of the tasks they are given are completely unrelated to engineering or IT disciplines and include placing protective stickers on the consoles and putting cords and manuals in Playstation 4 boxes to make them ready for shipping.

Despite the threat of losing course credits, Foxconn has issued a statement saying that the internships are voluntary and that the students can quit at any time.

As far as Sony is concerned, the company issued a statement to Gamasutra saying that it is confident that Foxconn complies with Sony's Supplier Code of Conduct.

Foxconn has hit headlines numerous times in the past for its difficult working conditions and frighteningly high suicide rate amongst its workers. The factory has been responsible for fabricating electronics products from companies including Apple, Nintendo, Microsoft, HP, Dell and Toshiba in the past.

49 Comments

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rollo 11th October 2013, 15:11 Quote
Foxconn makes so much stuff this would not really surprise me. In truth though surely a interns duty is to learn the business he / she hopes to be in one day. That would surely include the building and manufacturing of these items.
Snips 11th October 2013, 15:22 Quote
I'm sure if it was "XboxOnes" in the title, everyone would going Bats**t crazy now.
erratum1 11th October 2013, 15:33 Quote
So whats the news here? They are getting experience of the real world.

I called a volunteer agency the other day "sorry we're fully booked won't be able to take on anyone for at least 6 months"

Lol, you can't even work for nothing government muppets have no idea.
schmidtbag 11th October 2013, 15:59 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by Snips
I'm sure if it was "XboxOnes" in the title, everyone would going Bats**t crazy now.

Very true.


I'd have to say that I think I'll try avoiding Foxconn from now on. I always knew they had cheap products but now I know why.
Corky42 11th October 2013, 16:21 Quote
Capitalism at its finest ;)
exceededgoku 11th October 2013, 16:37 Quote
No issue with this whatsoever. We want PS4's... Someone has to build them....

And if we're helping some young talent towards their graduation even better!!
Snips 11th October 2013, 16:39 Quote
I'm not sure if its helping anyone "legally" by the sound of things.
rollo 11th October 2013, 17:31 Quote
Good luck avoiding fox con. Want to own a ps4 or Xbox one they are made there . Most major mobile players use them.

Nintendo dell hp list of companies who use fox con is huge. And that does not include parts that are fitted that you would never know about.
sotu1 11th October 2013, 17:54 Quote
Thats the problem, Foxconn make bits and pieces for just about everyone.
monkiboi 11th October 2013, 18:13 Quote
They're turning kids into slaves just to make cheaper sneakers.
But what's the real cost?
‘Cause the sneakers don't seem that much cheaper.
Why are we still paying so much for sneakers
When you got them made by little slave kids
What are your overheads?

Flight of the Conchords - 'Think about it'
Dave Lister 11th October 2013, 18:18 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by Corky42
Capitalism at its finest ;)

Agreed, And who would be silly enough to fall into this trap and not step away from it ? This happens in the UK with the unemployed at the moment, being made to work for the largest chain stores for el zilcho. People need to learn to say NO to being exploited.
AlphaAngel 11th October 2013, 18:53 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by Corky42
Capitalism at its finest ;)

And this is why government is so important. It is there to protect and serve the people. Unfortuantely what we have is croney capitalism (borderline fascism to a degree). The governement serves big business, not the people who elect it. Of course in China this point is somewhat moot, but the same type of things happen in the UK and USA.
Nexxo 11th October 2013, 19:43 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave Lister
This happens in the UK with the unemployed at the moment, being made to work for the largest chain stores for el zilcho. People need to learn to say NO to being exploited.

Well, that's not entirely true, is it? Benefits are not "el zilcho".
javaman 11th October 2013, 21:50 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by Snips
I'm not sure if its helping anyone "legally" by the sound of things.

Its only "illegal" cause some muppet in a suit said it is. Probably so he could win a popularity contest and to be able to look down his nose at other people.
Nexxo 11th October 2013, 23:03 Quote
We have psychology graduates working with us on a honorary (read: unpaid) contract. That does not mean that we can exploit them to do all our photocopying. We have an obligation to give them meaningful work experience. The British Psychological Society has quite strict rules about that, no messing.

Getting graduates to churn out PS4s on long shifts may be useful work experience in experiencing first hand how laborers get exploited, for sure. But it is still exploitation for all involved. Something to remember the next time you bitch about the price of your gadgets.
Stanley Tweedle 11th October 2013, 23:07 Quote
Cloud Atlas although the most boring movie I've seen in many years was about slavery through the ages. This is modern day slavery. Exploitation driven by greed. You can say they're getting "real world experience" but you can say that about any crime.
Snips 12th October 2013, 01:41 Quote
Goddamnit! sorry to swear but lets start one of those Change.org sign up thingy's and let's start a boycott of PSBore when it comes out!!!

Today we don't like Fony........right?
Deders 12th October 2013, 02:27 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nexxo
Well, that's not entirely true, is it? Benefits are not "el zilcho".

It's barely enough for housing and essentials when everything is factored in so it's pretty close to slavery:

https://scontent-a-lhr.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-frc3/q71/s720x720/1380696_686577671354443_1564957341_n.jpg

Back on topic, IMO this does not bode well for PS4's. I'll quote from a review of a machine in a recent £500 gaming PC roundup.

"All the other rigs in this test have been well made, despite the budget leanings of this feature...........This machine however feels like it was built by the work experience kid who worked in ********'s lab for a couple of weeks. The work experience kid who obviously had no interest in getting a job at the end of his stint"

Some of the issues included:

Wanted to boot directly from the network
3rd party CPU cooler is permanently at 100%
Catalyst Drivers weren't installed
The 1TB hard drive had to be initialised via disk management.

I happen to have worked in the same building as the people who made this computer (with a different company) and I know they recently got rid of a load of there staff and had people working for free from either internships or government schemes (which I have seen abused in the past where companies just get rid of the interns and apply for more instead of employing them) and it really shows in the quality of the build. I'm surprised Sony aren't more concerned with such an important product for them.
fdbh96 12th October 2013, 10:14 Quote
I don't really see the problem, a lot of interns work for nothing and while it may be pretty rubbish experience, its better than them sat doing nothing.
Nexxo 12th October 2013, 10:16 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by Deders
It's barely enough for housing and essentials when everything is factored in so it's pretty close to slavery:

It certainly is no fortune. But it is essentially free money. It is a subsidy, not an entitlement.

I'm basically a socialist by conviction, somewhat capitalist by experience. Your cartoon suggests that there once was a time where street sweepers were paid a decent wage for an honest day's work. That may have been true for a while, when their jobs were essentially heavily subsidised by the council. But the reality is: menial, unskilled labour has always been piss-poorly paid. The living standards that your grandparents (and possibly even parents) accepted as normal, are considered unacceptable hardship today.

All those piss-poorly paid menial unskilled jobs have now either been farmed out to the Third World, or immigrants from those countries are coming here to do them, because we won't. And then we complain loudly about them taking our jobs. No, they're doing our jobs; there's a difference.

Do I think that all jobs should pay a decent, living wage? Of course I do. But that is not how capitalism works. That game console, that iPad would become pretty unaffordable if Foxconn paid its workers a living wage. And you'd find that products and services all over the place would get more expensive. I'm happy to pay if it means that people are making a decent living. Are you?

Moreover a population that is well-paid wants to live in a better house, in a nicer neighborhood, consume better goods. As such demand increases, so does the price. The reason that the cost of living is so damn expensive these days, is because we demand a better standard of living. My dad didn't buy his first car (the Dutch equivalent of a Morris Minor that looked basically like a better built Trabant) until he was in his forties. Nowadays people expect to buy a pocket rocket at twenty.

TL;DR: we live in a capitalist economy. It doesn't subsidise people's lives. If you want better unemployment benefits or guaranteed jobs, you want communism. I'm good with that; I work for the NHS, that bulwark of socialism. But wave your gadgets and lifestyle goodbye.
greigaitken 12th October 2013, 12:52 Quote
young un's are generally crap - they should have to prove themselves, just like men have to prove to women they not a **** cause there's quite a lot of those too.
I make my under 25's work for free for 4 weeks (and yeah they have to do the crap jobs) to prove themselves. most get filtered out during that and the ones who pass get good jobs.
fdbh96 12th October 2013, 18:45 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by greigaitken
young un's are generally crap - they should have to prove themselves, just like men have to prove to women they not a **** cause there's quite a lot of those too.
I make my under 25's work for free for 4 weeks (and yeah they have to do the crap jobs) to prove themselves. most get filtered out during that and the ones who pass get good jobs.

No wonder you get the crap ones. With those working conditions I would certainly go elsewhere.
AiA 12th October 2013, 23:20 Quote
exploitation simple

there government should step in to prevent things like this

and as they haven't all ready, it shows you were corruption lies


they should be paid, and not work for promises


increasing the price of some products by a few £ won't make a difference to most consumers
rayson 12th October 2013, 23:29 Quote
these are engineering students how is this in any manner related to their work
rayson 12th October 2013, 23:33 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nexxo
Quote:
Originally Posted by Deders
It's barely enough for housing and essentials when everything is factored in so it's pretty close to slavery:

It certainly is no fortune. But it is essentially free money. It is a subsidy, not an entitlement.

I'm basically a socialist by conviction, somewhat capitalist by experience. Your cartoon suggests that there once was a time where street sweepers were paid a decent wage for an honest day's work. That may have been true for a while, when their jobs were essentially heavily subsidised by the council. But the reality is: menial, unskilled labour has always been piss-poorly paid. The living standards that your grandparents (and possibly even parents) accepted as normal, are considered unacceptable hardship today.

All those piss-poorly paid menial unskilled jobs have now either been farmed out to the Third World, or immigrants from those countries are coming here to do them, because we won't. And then we complain loudly about them taking our jobs. No, they're doing our jobs; there's a difference.

Do I think that all jobs should pay a decent, living wage? Of course I do. But that is not how capitalism works. That game console, that iPad would become pretty unaffordable if Foxconn paid its workers a living wage. And you'd find that products and services all over the place would get more expensive. I'm happy to pay if it means that people are making a decent living. Are you?

Moreover a population that is well-paid wants to live in a better house, in a nicer neighborhood, consume better goods. As such demand increases, so does the price. The reason that the cost of living is so damn expensive these days, is because we demand a better standard of living. My dad didn't buy his first car (the Dutch equivalent of a Morris Minor that looked basically like a better built Trabant) until he was in his forties. Nowadays people expect to buy a pocket rocket at twenty.

TL;DR: we live in a capitalist economy. It doesn't subsidise people's lives. If you want better unemployment benefits or guaranteed jobs, you want communism. I'm good with that; I work for the NHS, that bulwark of socialism. But wave your gadgets and lifestyle goodbye.

to be honest i'd rather not be able to afford an ipad then have someone work like a slave. and i see what you mean. but i feel that this is just probably some sort of bribery to the authority in the educational establishment that these students are from
Dave Lister 12th October 2013, 23:52 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nexxo
Quote:
Originally Posted by Deders
It's barely enough for housing and essentials when everything is factored in so it's pretty close to slavery:

TL;DR: we live in a capitalist economy. It doesn't subsidise people's lives. If you want better unemployment benefits or guaranteed jobs, you want communism. I'm good with that; I work for the NHS, that bulwark of socialism. But wave your gadgets and lifestyle goodbye.

There are well planned out alternatives to all the 'ism's' that have been tried in the past, I won't mention any here because from what i've seen of comments before its a bit taboo around here, but there are alternatives which should be given a chance. If not to enrich our own lives then perhaps to enrich the lives of others indirectly.
Waynio 13th October 2013, 15:20 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by AiA
exploitation simple

there government should step in to prevent things like this

and as they haven't all ready, it shows you were corruption lies


they should be paid, and not work for promises


increasing the price of some products by a few £ won't make a difference to most consumers

This is exactly what I was thinking.
PaulC2K 13th October 2013, 23:20 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by AiA
exploitation simple

there government should step in to prevent things like this

and as they haven't all ready, it shows you were corruption lies


they should be paid, and not work for promises


increasing the price of some products by a few £ won't make a difference to most consumers

The difference between a manufacturer using a £0.10 part and a £1.00 part doesnt cost the consumer £0.90 more, but more like £5, so the suggestion that paying the wages for the man hours it takes to build each unit, at even £1/hr isnt going to be 'a few £'. It doesnt make what they're doing even remotely right, but 'a few £' is either a gross misunderstanding of how much it'd increase costs, or is an insignificant drop in the ocean in terms of paying them for their work.

The majority of people would like to believe they're morally strong about stuff like this, but the vast majority of us couldnt give much of a hoot really, or at least nothing meaningful. We'll eagerly boycott stuff we never really wanted anyway, out of moral principle, while favouring the alternatives which follow the same practices they just dont happen to have people making as much noise about their activities as others do.

Heres the real test for customers:
If Sony, Apple, Nike, or any of the thousands of companies like these, sold an identical product, in this case a PS4, one for £375 (iirc) or one for £450 with the full £75 difference going to supplement proper wages to the people making them, which do you think is going to be the most popular with shoppers?
The majority of people favour their own interests and the 'they're gaining useful experience' and 'they dont have to do it' lines to rationalise it. It'd be nice if it wasnt true, but it is.

Increasing the price of some products by a few £ wont make a difference to the people being exploited.
VipersGratitude 14th October 2013, 05:04 Quote
3nsoN-LS8RQ

(also if you haven't watched them Sandel hosts a crash course in political philosophy at www.justiceharvard.org - 12 hours long, but more worthy of your time than a single season of Game of Walking Bad)
Anfield 15th October 2013, 03:31 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by Deders
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nexxo
Well, that's not entirely true, is it? Benefits are not "el zilcho".

It's barely enough for housing and essentials when everything is factored in so it's pretty close to slavery:

At least it is enough for housing and essentials, do some math on how hard life is for a single adult no kids earning minimum wage and not claiming any money from the government, just the rent alone will eat up in excess of 50% of your gross salary and you'll still only have a 1 bedroom apartment in bad condition for it, then add in utility bills and so on, lets face it, if you don't have the qualifications necessary to land a job that pays at least 20k a year you might as well just claim benefits as you will be better off, even if the government makes you work for the benefits.
Deders 16th October 2013, 04:40 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by Anfield
At least it is enough for housing and essentials, do some math on how hard life is for a single adult no kids earning minimum wage and not claiming any money from the government, just the rent alone will eat up in excess of 50% of your gross salary and you'll still only have a 1 bedroom apartment in bad condition for it, then add in utility bills and so on, lets face it, if you don't have the qualifications necessary to land a job that pays at least 20k a year you might as well just claim benefits as you will be better off, even if the government makes you work for the benefits.

Math done:

£1183 Council tax benefit for Band D. The £12 per month that anyone on benefits now has to pay has been deducted.
£3360 Rent based on the max £280 per month
£3640 based on £70 per week for a single person

=£8183 per year

Add 33% for tax and NI and you get..... £10,910.67. Maybe with that 20K they might be able to heat their house in the winter!
Nexxo 16th October 2013, 08:54 Quote
I think that you misunderstand the notion of "benefits". They are meant to tide you over and allow you to survive, that's all. And when on benefits you don't pay tax and NI.
Deders 16th October 2013, 09:21 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nexxo
I think that you misunderstand the notion of "benefits". They are meant to tide you over and allow you to survive, that's all. And when on benefits you don't pay tax and NI.

I was adding in the NI and tax you would have to pay if you were on a wage to have the same level of income.

Realistically there aren't going to be enough jobs out there for everyone to be employed, and taking people off DLA and putting them on JSA when they clearly can't work isn't helping matters but I do believe when there are jobs available, people should be paid a living wage to do them.

I think we'd need a separate thread if this conversation was going to go on much further.
Corky42 16th October 2013, 10:50 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by Deders
Realistically there aren't going to be enough jobs out there for everyone to be employed, and taking people off DLA and putting them on JSA when they clearly can't work isn't helping matters but I do believe when there are jobs available, people should be paid a living wage to do them.

It not a matter of if there are enough jobs for everyone, for any economy to work you need a certain percentage of people to be unemployed. Otherwise you get massive inflation due to wages going up.
Ending Credits 16th October 2013, 18:22 Quote
BREAKING NEWS: STUDENTS DO WORK WITHOUT BEING PAID!
erratum1 16th October 2013, 19:19 Quote
Benefits stop you from starving that's all..where does this idea that people on benefits are living it up?

The gouvernment and media so they can make cuts and your just agree like a load of sheep...."hate the unemployed"...."umm, ok" !! Baa baa.

Cameron has never been hard up this posh rich boy doesn't speak for us.
javaman 19th October 2013, 17:46 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by Deders


taking people off DLA and putting them on JSA when they clearly can't work........

I think your confusing DLA with ESA. You can claim DLA and still work.

It is this point I want to address. I work for the Appeal service so I see a lot of people come trying to get their benefits back. ESA, DLA the main two and eventually PIP if the government move themselves but that's another rant. I've seen shocking decisions from the departments like people getting more than they deserve and others falling through the cracks. Normally the appeal solves the problem (if the evidence is there) other times our hands are tied. Then there is that middle ground. People who have disabilities but can still clearly do work. Some of them take the path, I'm in pain therefore I can't work or I'm entitled. ESA is suppose to be a test to see if your disability is enough to stop you doing tasks (note, not coplete a certain job) like mobilising (key word in the test) a certain distance etc. Many people are in pain which often leads to depression, others are stuck at home and get depressed which can lead to pain. Nearly all claim they can't work yet they don't satisfy the test. Many of them could work if the break they cycle. Others will never break it simply because they don't want to. There are many people involved with appeals that are examples simply due to motivation or even the chance presented. One particular panel member for example has sever scoliosis and one of the Representatives nearly died of a stroke, yet by his own admission, was too stubborn to lie in a bed and just die. He made a brilliant recovery and is back helping people get their benefits back. Many of the appellants are offered help but don't commit to it often its that point they loose everything.
Really the point is it's not black and white. Many people can work, they are still entitled to benefits. The problem is simply convincing or motivating them to work. Mistakes are made in the mess of the law and peoples agendas, many do eventually get corrected at appeal. Now im not say 100% of errors are corrected. Some do fall through the cracks like the mental health side of the test or others just not engaging with the treatment offered (alcoholism is a tough area to deal with at appeal). Some even loose out on not proving their case or over playing their disability leading to credibility issues. So I ask, should we pay out for every sob story and people who refuse to help themselves?
AlienwareAndy 19th October 2013, 19:08 Quote
My brother did YTS for god knows how long and was paid £30 a week to be a builder. Filling skips, digging footings, you name it. I was too young for that (missed YTS by a couple of years) so I ended up doing New Deal. IE working 9 hours a day, 6 days a week in a computer shop for nothing more than my JSA.

Thankfully I was taken on, albeit really cheaply (£200 a week).

Every one has to start somewhere....

Now? hah ! I wish I could go to work. Fact is I don't know whether I'm coming or going most of the time so my doctors just keep loading me up with Pregabalin and Seroquel. It works OK, but I sleep like I'm comatose for 15 hours a day and just want to go to sleep for the rest.

I could probably hold a job down as an Aspie tbh. The computer shop was ace because I had a section of shop to myself. My boss would just hand computers through the hatch and I would do what I had to do and then pass them back. We pretty much figured out within a month to just stay out of each other's way as we used to rip lumps out of each other in really bad arguments. But I made him money so it worked.

Once the Bipolar took hold? tbh and I really hate saying this there are times where I wish I wasn't here. And they're many, often. Even with all of the pills and potions I take (and there are bloody loads) I am still completely mentally unstable. I have my good days but they're usually always few and far between and never outweigh the bad days.

I had to fight with ATOS for nearly a year. No doubt I'll hear from them soon and will have to be on suicide watch for a couple of months until they back off again.

I wish I could work, I really do. But for me the work is just trying to stay afloat mentally and not give in. Without benefits I would starve to death. I have trouble washing and dressing myself for weeks on end.
javaman 20th October 2013, 00:24 Quote
ATOS really skip the mental health descriptors in the test. Many cases it seems they haven't even looked at that area. Even if you don't score the points it sounds like Section 29(b) might apply too. Unfortunately ATOS won't pass you on that but the decision maker might. When it comes to reassessment submit everything you have that shows how your mental state debilitates you. That plus the dosage of medication should build a picture. Another area that muddies the waters is the interruption of "most of the time".
AlienwareAndy 20th October 2013, 00:57 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by javaman
ATOS really skip the mental health descriptors in the test. Many cases it seems they haven't even looked at that area. Even if you don't score the points it sounds like Section 29(b) might apply too. Unfortunately ATOS won't pass you on that but the decision maker might. When it comes to reassessment submit everything you have that shows how your mental state debilitates you. That plus the dosage of medication should build a picture. Another area that muddies the waters is the interruption of "most of the time".

My doctor wrote them a letter basically telling them I hit employers. I had done so at the last two jobs I had.

ATOS never asked me in for an interview, yet, put me in the WRAG (obviously score based). At appeal.. It was quick and easy, into the Support Group.

But every year since I've heard from them (oddly enough right around this time of year) and I've had to fill in more forms and get my psychs to write them letters ETC. Very VERY stressful for me because it frightens me into thinking that I could end up without any money and would end up homeless.

TBH for many going through it wouldn't be so stressful but it just makes me ill. The meds I take pretty much turn me into a living zombie. Which is fine, I really need to be taken away from myself, but it makes pissing around with questionnaires that much harder.
Nexxo 20th October 2013, 10:57 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by Deders
Realistically there aren't going to be enough jobs out there for everyone to be employed, and taking people off DLA and putting them on JSA when they clearly can't work isn't helping matters but I do believe when there are jobs available, people should be paid a living wage to do them.

I think we'd need a separate thread if this conversation was going to go on much further.

Realistically, foreigners are coming to your country and finding jobs (I did). But unskilled labour is not in high demand. They've all gone to the Third World, where they will still put up with the poor pay that these jobs get.

Unskilled labour was never paid well. It is important to realise that. It's just our expectations that have changed, and most people will simply not graft for peanuts. A living wage is a good idea, but I have already explained why it would not work in a capitalist economy.
AlienwareAndy 20th October 2013, 13:48 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nexxo
Realistically, foreigners are coming to your country and finding jobs (I did). But unskilled labour is not in high demand. They've all gone to the Third World, where they will still put up with the poor pay that these jobs get.

Unskilled labour was never paid well. It is important to realise that. It's just our expectations that have changed, and most people will simply not graft for peanuts. A living wage is a good idea, but I have already explained why it would not work in a capitalist economy.

The UK has definitely become very demanding when it comes to work. Out in the states there was no sick pay unless you were on salary and they used to pull the most nasty little tricks to screw you. Most namely it is law out there that if you work 40 hours a week they must offer you a health benefits package (subsidised by them). So what they used to do was hire people to work 35-39 hours so they didn't have to offer any such package.

It takes a year before you're eligible for any paid holiday, then you get a week. After three years you get two weeks and after five years three weeks. And that's it. Before then? if you have time off for any reason you get paid nothing.

They also had really nasty (but completely legal) contracts to say they could fire you for any reason at any time.

It was a horrible working environment. People used to turn up with walking pneumonia and everything because they couldn't afford not to work. Me? I was guilted into going into work in 2ft of snow and fell over and cut my wrist (I broke my car's alarm remote too as I had it in my hand).

I think the UK is a pretty lazy nation. People are of the attitude that they would "Rather not get out of bed than work for that much".

I know people rag on the Americans for being "Fat and lazy" but in reality it's the total opposite. They're such a manual nation.. They have to do all of their taxes, work 60 hours a week for salary etc. They marry their jobs. That's why they have drive through everythings because they just don't have time to go in.
Deders 20th October 2013, 23:48 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nexxo
A living wage is a good idea, but I have already explained why it would not work in a capitalist economy.

Greed is the simple reason why it doesn't work.
Nexxo 21st October 2013, 00:28 Quote
No, it's everybody wanting a fair wage. And that is measured by how well they can afford to live on it. Fact is, if wages go up, so does the cost of living. Then wages have to go up to compensate, and the cost of living follows... Inflation results.

The alternative is to subsidise essential goods so they are affordable to those on lower incomes, which means higher taxes. This evens out the wage differential, but make things too equal and that junior doctor might wonder why (s)he is going through all that effort when a skilled labourer is living quite nicely. In the US nursing is already regarded as a better career path than doctoring: it is less hassle, you earn more money earlier in your career path (when you want to settle down and start a family) and you don't have as much study debt to pay off later.

People want a reward for their hard work. If they can't make a better living than someone who has not studied and trained so hard, and does not have such a demanding job, where is the incentive? People are incentive-driven. You are not going to change that, unfortunately.
javaman 21st October 2013, 14:07 Quote
Lower taxes provlem solved. More free money to buy junk or invest in your home. Less money needed to be handed out by employers or in benefits just to survive.

Andy ill PM you and continue the discussion there.
Nexxo 21st October 2013, 14:10 Quote
Good plan. Let's lower public spending to go with it. More free money to buy your own health care, education, social and physical security etc.
javaman 21st October 2013, 20:08 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nexxo
Good plan. Let's lower public spending to go with it. More free money to buy your own health care, education, social and physical security etc.

Well the extra money people have in their pockets will mean they can spend it elsewhere which means a portion will go back in tax. Money in a shopkeepers hand can be used to keep a business afloat (therefore rent and other taxes being paid) or even expand if things go really well. Its from that expansion say an extra employee can pay tax on their wages and what they buy etc. etc.

Other things you could do is cut MP wages. Being elected is a privilege and plenty of people would be willing to run for the job. Why pay them so much to inflate their already massive self important egos? Take NI, does it even need its own Parliament especially when they spend more time bumming around the country, bitching about what colour the kerbs should be painted or how to decorate every lamp post. The 12th is nothing more than an excuse for the police to earn over time and the damage caused far out weighs and "tourist" argument.

Money is a poor motivator after all, just look at the target setting culture. There is nothing wrong with targets, infact done correctly can produce results but tying in bonus's means people start cutting corners to get the reward often at the expense of key fundamental tasks. I also believe targets are too short term driven. Results are needed yesterday and if we don't get them we will yoyo between policy's and ideas. If it wasn't for the squeeze then shakeup would never have came. Like community nursing, it prevented my brother entering hospital one christmas. She was treating 3 other patients that day at home prevented them having to go into hospital thus saving a fair amount in beds, speeding up recover rates etc. Guess who got hit hardest with the first round of cut? Another example is psychiatric services. From personal experience I know how applying to endless jobs feeling worthless and getting no where is like. I've also experienced burnout. If it wasn't from the strong support network and great uncle Google I had I wouldn't of coped. Now I wasn't as bad as some but another example is the marriage course I'm currently taking. It covers things like conflict resolution, communication, building good habits, trying to understand the person and how those differences affect everything rather than assuming etc. So many of them are "duh, obviously" points but 25 years of "life experience" hadn't taught me nearly what is needed. Alot can apply to relationships with parents, friends and even some people I meet in work aswell especially taking time to understand how the persons background has led them to this point. It could be the difference between someone bursting into tears or jumping up and swinging for me. Some need gentle reassurance others need to be told firmly to keep their focus (very basic examples). Back to the point, everyone should receive some sort of counseling be it dealing with baggage from family to looking after your mental and physical health. In my eyes its that that would save millions rather than flogging a dead horse, lurching from one crisis to the next.

I do blame short sighted targets, knee jerk reactions and poor communication of goals/targets plus too many cooks. I don't feel it has to reach the point that key services are sacrificed but certain changes have to happen if taxes are to be cut. Efficiency is key as well as waking up and taking the blinkers off. I do feel the nanny state means we aren't accountable for our actions. Like why do I need to give to charity when the government has done that through foreign aid? My moral conscience is satisfied. Why should I aim to get back to work cause I am content getting paid by the government? If my improve my health I will loose my benefit and there is no guarantee I will get a job then I will have nothing. Its not a simple problem and one solution won't solve everything. Forcing some to work for JSA it will help many it won't cause the problem is deeper.

Bit of a rant there. Hope it makes sense to someone
Corky42 28th November 2013, 18:04 Quote
Seems odd that some worker with probably no knowledge or skill could affect if something as complicated as electronics would fail to work, either quality control would pick up that the unit failed to power on because of damage or the workers would do superficial cosmetic damage.
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