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Notch snubs Microsoft's closed Windows 8

Notch snubs Microsoft's closed Windows 8

Notch joins Valve and Blizzard in warning that the approaching Windows 8 is bad for the PC gaming scene.

Minecraft developer and Mojang head honcho Markus 'Notch' Persson has refused to help Microsoft get the open world block-building game running on Windows 8 in protest over the closed nature of the new operating system.

Windows 8, which launches next month, has drawn ire from the PC game development community for its attempt to create a 'walled garden' ecosystem with the built in Windows Store. Much like Apple's mobile operating system, this will require software to go through its own certification process and will feature restrictions on the sort of content that can be submitted.

'I told them to stop trying to ruin the PC as an open platform,' Tweeted Notch. 'I'd rather have Minecraft not run on Win 8 at all than to play along. Maybe we can convince a few people not to switch to Win 8 that way.'

The Minecraft creator has previously reported on Mojang's excellent experience working with Microsoft for the Xbox Live Arcade release of the title. When it launched, the game sold 400,000 copies in the first 24 hours.

Other notable PC developers to criticise the new Microsoft operating system include Blizzard and Valve, with Gabe Newell going as far to say that it was 'a catastrophe for everybody in the PC space. The closed nature of Windows 8 is apparently one of the incentives behind Valve's push to work more with Linux systems.

Microsoft recently fought back with an argument that Windows 8 is actually a good thing for gamers as with the operating system, it is much harder for people to hack and cheat at multiplayer games. The new Windows is due to launch on October 26.

34 Comments

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SexyHyde 1st October 2012, 09:32 Quote
Another person I respect in the PC gaming arena that has 'issues' with windows 8. Well I definitely won't be getting it (I've tried cp & rp) and win7 will last until steamlinux makes an appearance whereby a dual boot with win7 on one machine.
BLC 1st October 2012, 09:56 Quote
I see this as being just the same as the app store on OS X: if you want in, you have to jump through Apple's hoops - if not, you can still get your application installed the "old fashioned" way.
Griffter 1st October 2012, 10:57 Quote
i wonder how long before any indi project will not be able to install cos it fails the windows cert. /* not bought in windows store... can not install. *\
Bede 1st October 2012, 11:00 Quote
The last argument that Microsoft produced, that it is harder for cheaters to cheat, is just ridiculous. It's equivalent to politicians' favourite arguments for when they want to curtail civil liberties without good cause - 'think of the children' or 'terrorism'.

Sadly though, Notch's protest isn't going to change a thing about W8. W8 is driven by people who looked at the popularity of Apple despite their rather authoritarian mobile and desktop OSs and realised they could get away with that too. There are longterm goals here which involve more money than PC gaming can ever produce.
faugusztin 1st October 2012, 11:11 Quote
And again, bashing, bashing, bashing without any real reason. This certification is about getting in Windows Store, about adhering to few rules if you want to sell your stuff through store. It is not about not being able to install these applications at all. It is only and only about the store. Nothing else.

So Griffter, they can fail the certification and they still will be able to be installed - the old fashioned way.

Bede, no one cuts any of your rights in Windows 8. Want to install your stuff old fashioned way ? Sure, you can. Want to be in Microsoft Store ? You need to play according to their rules (the certification process).
Griffter 1st October 2012, 11:16 Quote
charm, ok u right faugusztin, i did know this, but what i was wondering is how long it takes microsoft to change win 8 or maybe the next edition win 9 to be like the iphone, where u cant just install anything on it.

the article does mention win 8 and or store is mimicking apple. so just food for thought.
faugusztin 1st October 2012, 11:32 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by Griffter
charm, ok u right faugusztin, i did know this, but what i was wondering is how long it takes microsoft to change win 8 or maybe the next edition win 9 to be like the iphone, where u cant just install anything on it.

That is not going to happen, at least not on desktop. By locking out "sideloading" (installing from other sources than the Store), they would push people to OS X and Linux.
alecamused 1st October 2012, 11:33 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by Griffter
charm, ok u right faugusztin, i did know this, but what i was wondering is how long it takes microsoft to change win 8 or maybe the next edition win 9 to be like the iphone, where u cant just install anything on it.

the article does mention win 8 and or store is mimicking apple. so just food for thought.

I don't thin it would work. The appstore was introduced together with ios - so it gets kind of accepted (jailbreaking). People are used to download stuff for windows from multiple sources and install them, a ms-store-only-software-version of windows wouldn't sell.
Griffter 1st October 2012, 11:43 Quote
sure, well minded ppl like ourselves, but we talking about a very powerful business. all business' dont care in many ways, except valve - they do everything right :-D. i think a company that has their product in above 80-90% of houses and business', they can do whatever they would like and ppl just need to follow, since most business' cant afford to just change OS and most home owners dont really know what they getting themself into.

i think its very possible in the near future. pessimistic much? :-\
faugusztin 1st October 2012, 11:55 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by Griffter
sure, well minded ppl like ourselves, but we talking about a very powerful business. all business' dont care in many ways, except valve - they do everything right :-D. i think a company that has their product in above 80-90% of houses and business', they can do whatever they would like and ppl just need to follow, since most business' cant afford to just change OS and most home owners dont really know what they getting themself into.

i think its very possible in the near future. pessimistic much? :-\

No, it is not possible. First of all, they would kick themself out from the whole business sector, if they would require all applications to be installed from one source - Store. Many, many companies have specialized, custom software. It is simply unthinkable to even consider uploading those application to Store.

So no, on x86 removal of "sideloading" won't happen.
Nexxo 1st October 2012, 12:05 Quote
I'd have expected a little less... hysteria from Notch. Having Minecraft included in the Windows Store would be an absolute money spinner for him (so when the Store takes off I expect him to change his mind :p). There is nothing about Windows 8 that is not as open as it ever was.

Perhaps Microsoft should just re-release MS-DOS for those poor people who cannot handle a few brightly-coloured squares.
rollo 1st October 2012, 12:07 Quote
Maybe not on the desktop space but on the tablet space, Last i checked you already cant side load on the Windows RT software.
Griffter 1st October 2012, 12:09 Quote
when win 9 comes out i hope i find you again and say i told u so :-D

but its those things where i can only cheer u on and really really prey im wrong. would love to be wrong. i guess i just dont trust MS, or any big business with so much power. speaking bout MS since the article is on MS.

tell me faugusztin, are u a fan of win 8 , let me know why win 8 is good if u are a supporter?
faugusztin 1st October 2012, 12:26 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by rollo
Maybe not on the desktop space but on the tablet space, Last i checked you already cant side load on the Windows RT software.

Neither you can on iPad. Windows RT versus Windows 8 is like iOS versus OS X. Sure, you got the Launchpad from iOS to OS X - but that didn't change the fact that you can install apps old fashioned way in OS X. Same applies to Windows 8 - it has the same UI as Windows RT, plus the old fashioned way of doing things for non-ModernUI apps.

So once again, Windows RT tablets to Windows 8 is same as iPad to OS X.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Griffter
tell me faugusztin, are u a fan of win 8 , let me know why win 8 is good if u are a supporter?

I am not fan, but neither hater. There are some things i dislike in Windows 8 (especially with my accidental presses of Windows key bringing up Start screen all the time).

Hell, you could hardly find someone more open minded for OS selection as me. I have Windows 7 on desktop, Ubuntu on the server/HTPC, OS X on my Macbook, Windows 8 inside the VM on Macbook, i have an Android and WP7.5 phone, iPod Touch,... That is why i don't understand all the Windows 8 hate and pessimism by the way.

Windows 8 is simply a product of market shifting away from a traditional computer (desktop, laptop) towards tablets. Classical Windows UI is absolutely awful for a tablet interface, hell, Microsoft tried it few times (the first tablets around 2000, UPMC, Windows Mobile UI) and failed each and every time. That is why they created the new ecosystem optimised for the tablet UI, because that is from where the money comes. And because they tested the UI and the store system with Windows Phone 7, they know what they can expect.
For the old fashioned guys, they still have (and will have in next OS iterations too) the standard desktop interface, because it is pretty much impossible for applications like Photoshop to switch to the .NET/XAML UI system. And that is why desktop on x86 will never go away - market won't allow it.

You just need to get outside of "oh no, MS took away our Start menu, they will remove the desktop in Windows 9" thinking and start thinking rationally.
mighty_pirate 1st October 2012, 13:23 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nexxo
I'd have expected a little less... hysteria from Notch. Having Minecraft included in the Windows Store would be an absolute money spinner for him (so when the Store takes off I expect him to change his mind :p). There is nothing about Windows 8 that is not as open as it ever was.

Perhaps Microsoft should just re-release MS-DOS for those poor people who cannot handle a few brightly-coloured squares.
He doesn't need a money spinner. He's already made it clear that he's basically made all the money he needs to & from here on in he just means to use his status to influence the industry as he sees fit.
I don't like the look of Windows 8 (mostly for aesthetic reasons) & if I was in the same position as him, I too might say "No, I don't like your new product & I don't want or need to involve myself in it". How he apparently said it may seem to come across a little petulant, but I don't see any problems with his reasoning.
wafflesomd 1st October 2012, 13:28 Quote
What a mature response Notch... Seriously, just sounds like a whiney child.

The certifications aren't even demanding in the slightest.

"1.1 Your app must not take a dependency on Windows compatibility modes, AppHelp message, and or any other compatibility fixes
4.1 Your app must handle critical shutdowns appropriately
5.1 Your app must properly implement a clean, reversible installation"

Seriously, that's what he's complaining about?
Quote:
Originally Posted by mighty_pirate
He doesn't need a money spinner. He's already made it clear that he's basically made all the money he needs to & from here on in he just means to use his status to influence the industry as he sees fit.

With sensationalist twitter posts.

Did Notch forget that Minecraft is on Xbox360, a very closed system.
Anfield 1st October 2012, 14:04 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by wafflesomd
Did Notch forget that Minecraft is on Xbox360, a very closed system.

And the worlds most closed down store better known as the iCrap store.

Honsestly, Notchs refusal to put minecraft on the ms app store just falls in line with his previous opinion on refusing to put it on steam, gog, origin and so on.

Meanwhile in mobile / console land he is happy with even the most restrictive stores.

Anyone else see where this is going? Yep, I'll just say it, Notch is about to turn into yet another console dev. He will be the next Peter Molyneux.
Atomic 1st October 2012, 14:12 Quote
I don't get what the fuss is about, you can still install software as you have been able to since the start of windows, just run the installer as normal. If you want to sell your software via Microsoft's own Store you have to play by their rules.

It's the same deal with any shop - you can't just walk into a shop, hand them a product and expect them to sell it without knowing anything about it! The shop owner can choose what they sell and the quality of the goods.

I can understand MS wanting to test/certify anything it sells from its own store, they (not so much the developer) will be the ones that get the huge negative press should something from their store cause harm to a computer it's installed on.
Quote:
Originally Posted by faugusztin
No, it is not possible. First of all, they would kick themself out from the whole business sector, if they would require all applications to be installed from one source - Store. Many, many companies have specialized, custom software. It is simply unthinkable to even consider uploading those application to Store.
Indeed. It would be commercial suicide especially as MS makes more money from business licensing than it does from retail sales.
Icy EyeG 1st October 2012, 15:15 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nexxo

Perhaps Microsoft should just re-release MS-DOS for those poor people who cannot handle a few brightly-coloured squares.

No need, you can download and install FreeDOS for free. Besides, MS-DOS isn't compatible with many modern computers, so FreeDOS works better and is free of charge. :)
rollo 1st October 2012, 15:47 Quote
Minecraft has not been put on any major store, Is it a huge shock that its not going to be on microsofts store, Minecraft does not need windows store to sell.

If minecraft was on steam origin gog ect i could maybe understand this, But its not he has said before he has no intension of putting it on steams store or any other store for that matter.

Its on apples App store but thats a totally diffirent product range.

Desktop applications dont need a dedicated store to sell most people will happily buy from the cheapest source, How many have purchased from steam in the last few years brand new games at full price. Its not as many as people think, but ask the same question about steam sales and its alot of people.

Amazon play.com to name 2 will always be cheaper in the uk than any online store.

A better question would of been, Will you be porting this game to Windows RT?

Xbox 360 and Apple Store are not the same thing as a windows x86 store. Windows desktop does not need a windows store to sell.
GuilleAcoustic 1st October 2012, 15:52 Quote
Never bought a full price game on steam :D ... they always end up at reduced price after a few month.
Roskoken 1st October 2012, 16:58 Quote
He didnt seem to have any problems with bringing Minecraft onto Apples OS.

Weird that.

Maybe now with all his gold he can afford to be a hypocrite.
rollo 1st October 2012, 17:14 Quote
as i said above windows x86 store is alot different to an App store for Ipad Iphone, or andriod store for andriod products.

Windows RT will probably get minecraft. I dout Windows desktop will, They are not going to be the same store, you will not be able to use your x86 store purchases on a windows RT tablet.
faugusztin 1st October 2012, 18:32 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by rollo
as i said above windows x86 store is alot different to an App store for Ipad Iphone, or andriod store for andriod products.

Windows RT will probably get minecraft. I dout Windows desktop will, They are not going to be the same store, you will not be able to use your x86 store purchases on a windows RT tablet.

Windows RT store is a subset of Windows 8 store. Windows 8 Store is Windows RT apps (Metro, ModernUI, whatever they are called) plus the certified x86 apps. If there will be a Windows RT Minecraft in Store, then that will mean the same application will be available on Windows 8.

This topic is about the x86 version of the game, not about the possible Windows Runtime version.
faxiij 1st October 2012, 19:46 Quote
How can anyone take a person seriously that supports Apple?

Apple and their system is the worst out there, by quite a margin. So if 'Notch' supports that, all else he says is pointless, without meaning.

I appreciate the gaming industry being rebellious, so that MS remains aware of gaming needs. Personally I just hope, that mobile/tablet gaming never gets strong enough to cause MS to ditch games support on the desktop completely. You never know.

As for Windows 8, I think it's great. Lots of advantages. It's different, yes. But that is not the problem. The problem is the common lazy person, that doesn't like change and rather than embracing it, just starts moaning nomatterwhat. People that just want to complain and can't add anything constructive should just shut up. That includes 'Notch' too.
Krazeh 1st October 2012, 20:26 Quote
Surely your headline should have been "Notch makes stupid comments about Windows 8"? You could've then pointed out to everyone how his statements don't actually have any grounding in reality, much like those made by Gabe Newell.
Bogomip 1st October 2012, 22:15 Quote
Huh, if it really is true software has to be certified before it runs on Windows8 then I wont get it. Ive defended windows 8 alot up to now, especially against those who have only gone through heresay or tried early BETAs.

But if they are going the apple way then screw them - ill stick with windows 7 until a more viable option becomes available.
Krazeh 1st October 2012, 22:22 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bogomip
Huh, if it really is true software has to be certified before it runs on Windows8 then I wont get it. Ive defended windows 8 alot up to now, especially against those who have only gone through heresay or tried early BETAs.

But if they are going the apple way then screw them - ill stick with windows 7 until a more viable option becomes available.

It's not true. The only reason software needs to be certified is if you plan to make it available through the Windows 8 store. If on the other hand you plan to make it available through the same methods as you would currently then it doesn't need certifying and will run just fine. This concept of a 'closed' platform has no actual basis in fact and has come about from people like Gabe Newell making comments based on mistruths and/or conjecture and then news sites posting them without taking any time to verify the accuracy of what's being said or include the correct information.
faugusztin 1st October 2012, 22:45 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bogomip
Huh, if it really is true software has to be certified before it runs on Windows8 then I wont get it. Ive defended windows 8 alot up to now, especially against those who have only gone through heresay or tried early BETAs.

But if they are going the apple way then screw them - ill stick with windows 7 until a more viable option becomes available.

Software needs to be certified to be in Windows 8 Store. It is pretty much the "Windows 7 Logo" program to get this badge from Microsoft :
http://windowsteamblog.com/cfs-filesystemfile.ashx/__key/CommunityServer-Blogs-Components-WeblogFiles/windows7/ENw7comp_5F00_rgb_5F00_L_5F00_595A9778.png
The only difference is that requirements for the logo are now requirements for listing desktop Windows applications in the Store.
Bogomip 1st October 2012, 23:42 Quote
oh, that's not a problem then as devs wont release through it if it means less people having access and have to go through that process surely.
dark_avenger 2nd October 2012, 05:07 Quote
Worried about a closed system but ported minecraft to both iOS and xbox360?

Just trying to keep his name in the press. Move along people nothing to see here.
fluxtatic 2nd October 2012, 05:12 Quote
So, he's made all the money he wanted from it, and now won't be going to extra effort to get it into another sales channel? Shocking!

Seriously, who cares? If you want it, you can still have it, installing it like any other application ever. I don't think it would really help move more copies anyway - it isn't as if everybody who has even the most passive interest in gaming isn't aware of Minecraft. I mean, the dude sold how many copies when it was still in alpha?

Going the Linus route of being a loudmouth to no purpose is a mistake, in my opinion. How about he start working on something new, rather than whining about how awful the Win8 store is? (Hypcritically, since he did go on XBox Live and to Apple's ecosystems.)

Too bad Minecraft was written in Java, too - I'd like to play it, but there's no way in hell I'm putting Java on any of my personal machines. There we go - how about he rewrite Minecraft using a language that isn't riddled with security holes?
faugusztin 2nd October 2012, 10:19 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by fluxtatic
There we go - how about he rewrite Minecraft using a language that isn't riddled with security holes?

No such thing exists.
azrael- 2nd October 2012, 11:07 Quote
Anything TUIFKATUIFRTAM*-based, whether it's x86-based or not, will have to go through the Microsoft Store. Only exception is made for enterprises, which are allowed to sideload TUIFKATUIFRTAM-based applications. That requires a special Enterprise product key (and presumably Win8 Enterprise). Read more here.


*The UI formerly known as the UI formerly referred to as Metro
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