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Sony defends PSN announcement delays

Sony defends PSN announcement delays

Sony has attempted to calm angry PSN users over the lack of information following service attacks.

Sony has attempted to calm growing anger over the lack of information that followed the recent PSN attack. Specifically, Sony has explained why it didn't immediately alert PSN users that their account details may have been compromised, including credit card information.

Sony first took the PSN service offline on 19th April, when it first learned of an attack on the service. No information or explanation was offered to users until today, however.

'There's a difference in timing between when we identified there was an intrusion and when we learned of consumers' data being compromised,' Sony's director of communications Patrick Seybold said in a statement.

'We learned there was an intrusion 19th April and subsequently shut the services down. We then brought in outside experts to help us learn how the intrusion occurred and to conduct an investigation to determine the nature and scope of the incident.

'It was necessary to conduct several days of forensic analysis, and it took our experts until yesterday to understand the scope of the breach. We then shared that information with our consumers and announced it publicly this afternoon.'

Sony has advised PSN users to keep an eye on their accounts until it is able to learn more.

Let us know your thoughts in the fourms.

36 Comments

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chris66 27th April 2011, 11:13 Quote
I would say to anyone who has a credit card linked to the PSN to cancel it immediately and ask for a new card – just to be safe.
Tokukachi 27th April 2011, 11:14 Quote
wow, that's complete crap.

If you were worried enough to shut the service down, you at least feared data may have been compromised else you wouldn't have done it, you still should of said;

"We have detected a external security breach of our systems, we do not know if any data was stolen but we advise you all to change your passwords and get replacement credit cards/ keep an eye on statements and we'll update you when we have further information"

It's not hard is it?
Bad_cancer 27th April 2011, 11:16 Quote
^ I agree. Now the hackers have had 7 days to play with your data. Nice of sony isn't it?
NuTech 27th April 2011, 11:22 Quote
What is down right disgusting about this entire ordeal is that Sony didn't let their massive customer base know the moment they suspected there was a possibility of an intrusion - instead they waited for confirmation.

So, using Sony's logic, rather than risk a PR nightmare over what could end up being a false alarm, they waiting until they were sure it was a PR nightmare. Nice priorities.
javaman 27th April 2011, 11:41 Quote
Im pissed at the hackers but even more pissed at sony, that rather than being proactive to prevent breaches ie. constantly looking for them so they can be patched. Doesn't help tho if you go around pissing on everyone either.
cdb 27th April 2011, 11:42 Quote
I'd say Sony were trying to cover it up before they had to let us know to save any embarrassment. I wouldn't trust Sony as far as I could throw them, but I still buy their products.
kempez 27th April 2011, 12:02 Quote
Cancelled all cards I could have used on PSN, changed all passwords that I have that match the PSN one (only 1 or 2). I'm pretty sure I've done all I can do, it's just a massive pita.
MrJay 27th April 2011, 12:15 Quote
They should have just come forward and said 'we have been dicked, don’t know the extent of dickage, but as a precaution cancel your cards and change passwords.'

Just shows they don’t really care about the user base and only care about future sales.

If card information has been taken I expect we will start hearing stories of fraud and id theft.
BRAWL 27th April 2011, 12:23 Quote
Ladies and Gentleman who are whining about Sony not stating this... Hindsight is always 20/20.

Get real, seriously. What if there hadn't been a breach and they'd told everyone there was? People would have changed cards, details, passwords EVERYTHING for nothing, right? Honestly... I'd have done this straight away as they did say "external interance" which means hacking.

Kinda funny that everyones jumping on Sony because they dared wait for confirmation. Get real.
themax 27th April 2011, 12:26 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by NuTech
What is down right disgusting about this entire ordeal is that Sony didn't let their massive customer base know the moment they suspected there was a possibility of an intrusion - instead they waited for confirmation.

So, using Sony's logic, rather than risk a PR nightmare over what could end up being a false alarm, they waiting until they were sure it was a PR nightmare. Nice priorities.

Not waiting for confirmation leads to far more problems and PR backlash then assuming and running with it only to find out otherwise.

How is it disgusting that Sony brought down the entire system once the breach was detected, informed the customer base that the system is currently down and then confirmed why it was down? I recall Sony being attacked just for suggesting (without confirmation) that there was a possible external intrustion because people assumed Sony was blaming anon. Now they are being attacked for not confirming fast enough for you (keep in mind the system has already been brought down to protect any further data being taken) that it was infact, an external intrustion.

Case in point...Sony did inform the customer base that there was a possible external intrustion after bringing the PSN down and that account data may have been taken. Folks were to busy riding the anon vs Sony bandwagon to care.
chris66 27th April 2011, 12:27 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by BRAWL
Ladies and Gentleman who are whining about Sony not stating this... Hindsight is always 20/20.

Get real, seriously. What if there hadn't been a breach and they'd told everyone there was? People would have changed cards, details, passwords EVERYTHING for nothing, right? Honestly... I'd have done this straight away as they did say "external interance" which means hacking.

Kinda funny that everyones jumping on Sony because they dared wait for confirmation. Get real.

What a silly and very naïve post! As soon as Sony realised that user accounts may have been compromised, they should have announced this immediately – letting the customer decide on the best course of action for them.
Would you write the same if it were your bank who had their files on customers hacked and stolen?
oatey4519 27th April 2011, 12:28 Quote
My password have been changed for my email etc.

Lets face it if the wanted it get in they would not matter what Sony do.

Why PSN and not the XPox Live? its microsoft and has more users
Should stick with PC gaming.. as i do..lol
WarrenJ 27th April 2011, 12:29 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by BRAWL
Ladies and Gentleman who are whining about Sony not stating this... Hindsight is always 20/20.

Get real, seriously. What if there hadn't been a breach and they'd told everyone there was? People would have changed cards, details, passwords EVERYTHING for nothing, right? Honestly... I'd have done this straight away as they did say "external interance" which means hacking.

Kinda funny that everyones jumping on Sony because they dared wait for confirmation. Get real.


So, if you loose your credit card on a night out. Do you wait 7 days until you can go to the place you think you lost it and ask if someone handed it in or do you cancel it to be on the safe side?

Up to you, but i'd rather be safe than sorry.
SNIPERMikeUK 27th April 2011, 12:40 Quote
If this is about the Sony Vs. George 'GeoHot' Hotz lawsuit, then it has now become personal with the consumer. The other thing is will Sony remove other features from the playstation3 in order to attempt to secure it.

Hurting Sony financially is one thing, but this has gone too far, can we trust Sony anymore? This has more implications than many of us thought....
NuTech 27th April 2011, 12:59 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by themax
Not waiting for confirmation leads to far more problems and PR backlash then assuming and running with it only to find out otherwise.
No, it doesn't. If the security breech is serious enough that your immediate response is to shut down the entire system - then you inform your customers immediately what the worst case scenario is.

No false alarm/PR backlash is worse than hackers having a week head-start on 70 million identities.
Quote:
Originally Posted by themax
How is it disgusting that Sony brought down the entire system once the breach was detected, informed the customer base that the system is currently down and then confirmed why it was down? I recall Sony being attacked just for suggesting (without confirmation) that there was a possible external intrustion because people assumed Sony was blaming anon. Now they are being attacked for not confirming fast enough for you (keep in mind the system has already been brought down to protect any further data being taken) that it was infact, an external intrustion.

Case in point...Sony did inform the customer base that there was a possible external intrustion after bringing the PSN down and that account data may have been taken. Folks were to busy riding the anon vs Sony bandwagon to care.
I think you misunderstood my post. What I described as 'disgusting' was not Sony's reaction of shutting down the entire system (which was in the best interest of everyone), but their tardiness and incredibly poor handling of their customers and the press. Sony PR said nothing because they hoped the investigation would conclude that nothing was stolen. They were very, very wrong and this is now just the beginning of what will probably end up being the biggest public shaming of a company mishandling personal information. It's going to get very ugly.
Fizzban 27th April 2011, 13:20 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by NuTech
No, it doesn't. If the security breech is serious enough that your immediate response is to shut down the entire system - then you inform your customers immediately what the worst case scenario is.

Correct.
maximus09 27th April 2011, 14:34 Quote
I heard they annouced it late so as not to effect their new Tablet release. Seems obvious, if the news had got out during that it would have been quite bad.
BRAWL 27th April 2011, 14:57 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by chris66
What a silly and very naïve post! As soon as Sony realised that user accounts may have been compromised, they should have announced this immediately – letting the customer decide on the best course of action for them.
Would you write the same if it were your bank who had their files on customers hacked and stolen?

Not really... I'm just someone who's not foolish enough to leave my details lurking attached to an account. Even my STEAM account doesn't have them saved. I mean the main reason in my eyes they didn't turn round and say, is because a) they didn't know they'd been compromised (jesus my spellings awful today) and b) could you imagine if they said it, then had to retract it? The media frenzy would be far, FAR worse than this has gotten.

Really? A company thinking about it's image over it's customers... who'd have thought eh?
Quote:
Originally Posted by WarrenJ
So, if you loose your credit card on a night out. Do you wait 7 days until you can go to the place you think you lost it and ask if someone handed it in or do you cancel it to be on the safe side?

Up to you, but i'd rather be safe than sorry.

See my previous comment.

Also, who the hell uses a credit card on these things... thats just asking for trouble.

Seems this could go in the direction of a gloriously illogical flamewar me thinks.
steveo_mcg 27th April 2011, 14:58 Quote
In other news Sony apologies for mistake, cold snap in hell and bacon on the wing becomes new delicacy.
javaman 27th April 2011, 15:02 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by BRAWL
Ladies and Gentleman who are whining about Sony not stating this... Hindsight is always 20/20.

Get real, seriously. What if there hadn't been a breach and they'd told everyone there was? People would have changed cards, details, passwords EVERYTHING for nothing, right? Honestly... I'd have done this straight away as they did say "external interance" which means hacking.

Kinda funny that everyones jumping on Sony because they dared wait for confirmation. Get real.

You should be changing passwords every few months anyway. I would rather have a new card, pin and passwords than have the headache of talking to bank regarding the £2k overdraft some dickwad has rung up.

Its far better Sony coming out and saying "We've been breeched, we don't know the damage but do x, y and z just incase."
sharpethunder 27th April 2011, 15:59 Quote
What i think happened is that it 0 day flaw in the coding of the network so they are having to rewrite it from scratch but dont i have a ps3 so doesn't aftect me but if i was 0ne of the 3 millon uk costomer i would be angry about it sony should of informed the user on day one saying the network has been attacked we dont know the extent yet but we our advice would be to change credit card/ debit just in case
Eggy 27th April 2011, 16:11 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fizzban
Quote:
Originally Posted by NuTech
No, it doesn't. If the security breech is serious enough that your immediate response is to shut down the entire system - then you inform your customers immediately what the worst case scenario is.

Correct.
No you don't. What kind of experience do some of you have in these matters anyway. If you don't know what was accessed, how can you properly inform people. You find out what happened and what was breached and inform people correctly or not at all.
BRAWL 27th April 2011, 16:14 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by javaman
You should be changing passwords every few months anyway. I would rather have a new card, pin and passwords than have the headache of talking to bank regarding the £2k overdraft some dickwad has rung up.

Its far better Sony coming out and saying "We've been breeched, we don't know the damage but do x, y and z just incase."

True... but with many people that isn't possible. For example at work I have seven passwords just to get on my damn system in the morning. I then have Facebook, BitTech, Gaming forums, Community forums, Banking passwords and other wiffle waffle online that hits over 30+ registered member sites (not porn before some twisted individual... Teel... thinks of it) so it's literally nigh-impossible to change this over.

Admitting to something like 70 million profiles being breeched, you can tell that at least 1% of them are then going to file some serious issues with Sony which in the long run, maybe more costly than them losing details due to hacking in the first place. (I.e. customers suing Sony over Customers suing Sony over non-action.)

I know it seems cruel and maybe a little cold hearted of me. But I think if your details are accessable via the Internet then you should always be ready for this kind of issue to come up really. There is always the real possibility that your details are going to be gotten hold of by some negative entity on the web, right? To think otherwise is... whats the word? Naive? No system is 100% secure, other than not having it online in the first place... and best of luck to breaking into my flat to get hold of my details!
Quote:
Originally Posted by Eggy
No you don't. What kind of experience do some of you have in these matters anyway. If you don't know what was accessed, how can you properly inform people. You find out what happened and what was breached and inform people correctly or not at all.

Thankyou! Someone who see's my point of view. Why cause a scare if you do not know.
Whirly 27th April 2011, 16:22 Quote
The very fact that Sony closed down the entire network shows how serious the security breach was. If they didn't feel that it exposed important data and was on-going they would have left it up running while they investigated.

So the reality is that Sony knew that their network had been exposed in such a way that it afforded access to important and private information. There is no other explanation for the drastic and unprecedented measure they took. They didn't simply "fear" there had been a breach, they knew it.

Despite this, they spent SEVEN days deliberately misleading more than 70 million users about the problems they were having. Let me make that point again.

Deliberately misleading users.

For some reason they felt that their position as a leading global corporation afforded them the right to decide for 70 million people whether or not to trust their personal information to the hope that the hackers had decided not to download the database.

That is unbelievably arrogant behaviour and says a great deal about the corporate culture within Sony. Either the announcement was deliberately delayed to avoid clashing with other PR announcements or, every employee involved was too frightened of career repercussions to take responsibility for releasing the information until the decision was made at the highest level.

One thing is pretty much certain. For at least 7 days, criminals have had the personal details, password and DOB of over 70 million people. And possibly their credit card details too. The effects of this hack will go on for years as much of that info will still be viable for use in identity theft for a long time to come. After all, while changing a few passwords is easy to do, how many of you can easily change your address? Or name? Or DOB?

One small point that seems to have been missed is that there has been a suspicion that Sony collects quite a lot of data about its users...if that is true then what else do the criminals now know about us?

Still, as Sony have shown over the past few months, they have very good lawyers. So I doubt there will be too much fallout for Sony. As always, the users will bear the brunt.

As for the Geohot case, I doubt it is directly linked to the hack except insomuch as the hacking of the playstation firmware may have exposed security flaws in the PSN that were exploited.
Boogle 27th April 2011, 16:24 Quote
So they've got full customer information, security questions, and credit card info? Fantastic. Not only that, but they gave the hackers a massive head start to start abusing the data, even better. Thanks for nothing Sony.
UrbanSmooth 27th April 2011, 16:33 Quote
I can see it now, with the PS4, Sony is really going to be pushing their security on the next PSN.
javaman 27th April 2011, 17:27 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by BRAWL


Thankyou! Someone who see's my point of view. Why cause a scare if you do not know.

While i see you point of view I dont agree with it. My view was nailed when you said
Quote:
I think if your details are accessable via the Internet then you should always be ready for this kind of issue to come up really.
we "trust" these companies to look after our data and yes **** happens but its how the company responds to such problems that makes and breaks them. If there is a breach You should be prepared to do whats necessary. Yes its moan worthy and annoying to change so many passwords but online as I sid you should be changing them regularly anyway an be prepared to need to change them if something goes tits up. Its in good faith that we hope the company admits when something goes tits up. How would you like it if facebook failed to tell you your account was hacked or even your bank? you would far rather know from day 1 that theres a possibility rather than waiting 7 days to find out or sooner if your card gets declined and you had the chance to be pro active.
Quote:
Originally Posted by BRAWL


I know it seems cruel and maybe a little cold hearted of me. But I think if your details are accessable via the Internet then you should always be ready for this kind of issue to come up really. There is always the real possibility that your details are going to be gotten hold of by some negative entity on the web, right? To think otherwise is... whats the word? Naive? No system is 100% secure, other than not having it online in the first place... and best of luck to breaking into my flat to get hold of my details!
P.S., its not cold hearted its a view point I hold but only if the person genuinely deserves it. Being nieve by having the same password for everything or getting info about the breach and doing nothing deserves everything that comes to them, after all it is a reality of the web, nothing is 100% secure but it goes a very long way to improving safety and saving tons of hassle by notifying people. By telling them it removes most of the liable from Sony since they notified people so they could act. better to have to act over nothing rather than be late to react or not react at all.

@eggy you don't need to know what was accessed to know that there is a possibility that getting any info could screw people. Any breach is serious enough, even if its just snooping or vandalism to warrent people taking action in changing passwords. Attacking PSN wasn't just to model a similar system after it. It was clearly to snoop at customer details and damage the system where possible. same if amazon was attacked, I would change my details regardless. Any compromise has the possibility of accessing details that shouldn't be made public, even if they didn't would you take the chance?
cdb 27th April 2011, 18:13 Quote
I like this bit
Quote:
the following information that you provided: name, address (city, state/province, zip or postal code), country, email address, birthdate, PlayStation Network/Qriocity password and login, and handle/PSN online ID,' reads Sony's official statement

It almost sounds like they are trying to blame us for giving them the information. I honestly don't know if I gave them mine, but I never fill in optional fields, so if they have it chances are they made us give it.
BRAWL 27th April 2011, 18:15 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by javaman
While i see you point of view I dont agree with it. My view was nailed when you said we "trust" these companies to look after our data and yes **** happens but its how the company responds to such problems that makes and breaks them. If there is a breach You should be prepared to do whats necessary. Yes its moan worthy and annoying to change so many passwords but online as I sid you should be changing them regularly anyway an be prepared to need to change them if something goes tits up. Its in good faith that we hope the company admits when something goes tits up. How would you like it if facebook failed to tell you your account was hacked or even your bank? you would far rather know from day 1 that theres a possibility rather than waiting 7 days to find out or sooner if your card gets declined and you had the chance to be pro active.


P.S., its not cold hearted its a view point I hold but only if the person genuinely deserves it. Being nieve by having the same password for everything or getting info about the breach and doing nothing deserves everything that comes to them, after all it is a reality of the web, nothing is 100% secure but it goes a very long way to improving safety and saving tons of hassle by notifying people. By telling them it removes most of the liable from Sony since they notified people so they could act. better to have to act over nothing rather than be late to react or not react at all.

@eggy you don't need to know what was accessed to know that there is a possibility that getting any info could screw people. Any breach is serious enough, even if its just snooping or vandalism to warrent people taking action in changing passwords. Attacking PSN wasn't just to model a similar system after it. It was clearly to snoop at customer details and damage the system where possible. same if amazon was attacked, I would change my details regardless. Any compromise has the possibility of accessing details that shouldn't be made public, even if they didn't would you take the chance?

In Goldmembers words, "Then there ish no pleeeezing yoou". Nailed opinions aren't fun. A bank wouldn't tell me it got hacked, thats the purpose of a good hack. As for Facebook... not alot of good there as I do little more than enlighten people to how foolish they are (Yes... very egotistical I know).

Oh don't get me wrong I have different passwords for most things dependant. Financial things have one, Games have another, Tech stuff another and Work based stuff another. So it should be... I'm not going to try and remember 30 passwords because thats just not possible with everything else I have to do man, and don't get me started on password completion systems. Not a good move.

I never mentioned trust? I don't trust any company... not even the one I work for to keep my details secure chap. I never will, thus why if I answer my cellphone to an unknown number they get me saying a random name (That and for the shits and giggles of hearing their reaction to "Hello eggs and bacon..." at 0830am on a saturday.) If you're going to put your details on the net, be prepared to have them violated, hell someones gonna do it and they've been doing it from the moment you first saw "PENIS EXTENSION!ONE35612" come into (lol, no puns) your hotmail box when you were eight, right?
Eiffie 27th April 2011, 18:38 Quote
great idea, did that once I found out about the whole data leak thing, gonna get a new card in the mail in a day or two for free. rather painless process actually.
Skiddywinks 27th April 2011, 18:40 Quote
Double post, my bad.

Le sigh.
Skiddywinks 27th April 2011, 18:41 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by themax
Quote:
Originally Posted by NuTech
What is down right disgusting about this entire ordeal is that Sony didn't let their massive customer base know the moment they suspected there was a possibility of an intrusion - instead they waited for confirmation.

So, using Sony's logic, rather than risk a PR nightmare over what could end up being a false alarm, they waiting until they were sure it was a PR nightmare. Nice priorities.

Not waiting for confirmation leads to far more problems and PR backlash then assuming and running with it only to find out otherwise.

What? That's crazy.

People seem to be seeing this as A) Sony could release a PR on day 0 saying "ZOMG YOU HAVE ALL BEEN HACKED" and started a mad rush of people cancelling cards etc, or B) They do what they did, and wait seven fricking days before even mentioning the possibility.

I don't see why they couldn't have done C) Release a PR saying there are some legitimate concerns about the security of people's information, and that it is worth watching your account carefully for suspicious transactions, and advising people speak to their bank, card provider etc about how to go about preventing fraudulent activity in their account.

This would have been a measured, deliberate response to what at the time was genuinely a legitimate concern about people's information. They don't have to start a mad panic, they don't have to say everyone has definitely been dicked, only to possibly have to retract it. Either way it turns out, they have covered their own asses and the asses of their customers.

7 days later, they confirm the **** has hit the fan, and everyone was well prepared for it, and praise Sony for being so diligent and putting their customers before their own selfishness. Sony get to be the good guys.

Or, 7 days later they confirm that no one is at risk. People are now more aware of what to look out for in terms of fraudulent activity (always a good thing), no one has gone on a mad spree to cancel their cards etc, and Sony get to be the good guys. Again.

The absolute only reason that Sony would keep people in the dark is in the hopes that it is nothing and that it will all blow over with no reprecussions. It's, quite frankly, a stupid gamble. They have missed an oppurtunity to show how dilligent they can be, and since the **** turned out to hit the fan anyway, they are now in even more crap than if they had just admitted there was potentially an issue.
javaman 27th April 2011, 18:43 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by BRAWL
In Goldmembers words, "Then there ish no pleeeezing yoou". Nailed opinions aren't fun. A bank wouldn't tell me it got hacked, thats the purpose of a good hack. As for Facebook... not alot of good there as I do little more than enlighten people to how foolish they are (Yes... very egotistical I know).

Oh don't get me wrong I have different passwords for most things dependant. Financial things have one, Games have another, Tech stuff another and Work based stuff another. So it should be... I'm not going to try and remember 30 passwords because thats just not possible with everything else I have to do man, and don't get me started on password completion systems. Not a good move.

I never mentioned trust? I don't trust any company... not even the one I work for to keep my details secure chap. I never will, thus why if I answer my cellphone to an unknown number they get me saying a random name (That and for the shits and giggles of hearing their reaction to "Hello eggs and bacon..." at 0830am on a saturday.) If you're going to put your details on the net, be prepared to have them violated, hell someones gonna do it and they've been doing it from the moment you first saw "PENIS EXTENSION!ONE35612" come into (lol, no puns) your hotmail box when you were eight, right?

I couldn't be bothered arguing since your clearly wearing a tin foil hat and failed to address any of what I said. Just one thing, you clearly haven't applied to any jobs in your life (either have one and lack ambition or are just a bum, I can't tell) but every company I've applied to have always withheld their numbers. 30 passwords.....easy, Ill give you a tip, break passwords into 3 sections which can come in any order and have at least 5 combinations per section. even key words are helpful, ie. kitchen and one of those sections is made up of something in the kitchen or in my case, something that shouldn't be there. change the keyword every month and you'll not only have more combinations but it'll be a hell of alot easier to remember. Even if you can't remember that writing down keywords especially vague ones could mean anything.
alf- 27th April 2011, 21:20 Quote
when we say credit card information, do we mean enough information for that credit cad to be used illegally for purchases, or is it a case of some, but not all required information being hacked?

from what i'm reading i'm not sure either way.
BRAWL 27th April 2011, 21:49 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by javaman
I couldn't be bothered arguing since your clearly wearing a tin foil hat...

Yeah, of course. Because being protective over my credit card/debit card details is tin foil hat wearing.

[/conversation]
badman_mo007 27th April 2011, 22:34 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by alf-
when we say credit card information, do we mean enough information for that credit cad to be used illegally for purchases, or is it a case of some, but not all required information being hacked?

from what i'm reading i'm not sure either way.

YES!

paymentMethod
holderName
cardNumber
expireYear
securityCode
address
address.province
address.postalCode

serviceid
loginid
password
consoleid

Source
Is that enough information for ya? :D

Apparently this has been happening since as early as Feb and Sony has only just found out about it?!?
I guess they were too busy suing everyone and collecting the IP addresses of people who watched a video of geohot on youtube, rather than fixing their own security flaws.
The worst thing is they never even bothered to put any encryption on this sensitive data...

Sony have screwed up Big!
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