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The Elder Scrolls: Skyrim announced

The Elder Scrolls: Skyrim announced

Bethesda has announced a new entry in The Elder Scrolls series, Skyrim, plus a new engine.

Bethesda officially announced a new entry in The Elder Scrolls series, dubbed Skyrim, at the VGAs this weekend.

There's precious few details to be gleaned from the announcement, but a teaser trailer on IGN tells that dragons may be the big baddies this time around.

The title also suggests that the game will be set in Skyrim, a cold and mountainous country in the far north of Tamriel, the fictional continent that has hosted the Elder Scrolls series.

Skyrim will apparently be built on a whole new engine too, with Bethesda's community manager Nick Breckon tweeting earlier that he 'can now confirm that the TES V: Skyrim engine is all-new.'

RPS followed up with Breckon to clarify what he meant and have since confirmed that the engine is being built internally at Bethesda and is not just a new iteration of the dated Gamebryo engine used in Obvlion.

The most recent game to use the Gamebryo Engine was Fallout: New Vegas, which suffered from dated visuals as a result.

Let us know your thoughts in the forums.

51 Comments

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mjm25 13th December 2010, 13:58 Quote
*swooooon* You've made my morning Joe. I bloody loved Oblivion!!!
Coldon 13th December 2010, 14:17 Quote
I just really hope they improve the damn animation system in the new engine... And remove the auto-leveling BS that was present in oblivion
adam_bagpuss 13th December 2010, 14:19 Quote
i hope they dont continue with the trend of dumbing it down. i loved elder scrolls 3 and although 4 was good its was simplified and streamlined to capture a wider audience which made the game very easy. It was like receive quest look on map where to go teleport to nearest you can get and then be greated with a NPC running up to you to say whats going on.
mastorofpuppetz 13th December 2010, 14:24 Quote
I hope its a lot different then the shallow, emptiness of oblivion. Oblivion was the most flawed, generic, hyped RPG I have ever played. What a let down that was.
Skiddywinks 13th December 2010, 14:27 Quote
Two words;

**** YES
xaser04 13th December 2010, 14:37 Quote
Excellent, Replaying Oblivion at the moment on my PS3 and loving every minute (although I am playing it very slowly and havn't touched the main quest line yet).
Skiddywinks 13th December 2010, 14:39 Quote
Also, here's a link to a better video (GT) than the one on IGN.
Jim 13th December 2010, 14:56 Quote
Please sort out the levelling system, please?

New engine plus new levelling system will make this a fantastic game - no doubt from my end.
arcticstoat 13th December 2010, 15:20 Quote
Awesome - I loved Oblivion. Hopefully they'll get more than three voice actors for the hundreds of different characters this time, and fix all the weird bugs where beggars occasionally say the odd sentence in a completely different voice.
javaman 13th December 2010, 15:30 Quote
Last I heard they where working on "the next part" to oblivion using the gamebro engine set directly after oblivion. Is that gonna happen or was there a mix of info and it was in fact TES V after all?

Hopefully it'll go back to morrowind for ideas. Combat in oblivion was better but the whole game was too bland. 1 square yard of yorkshire copy and pasted several million times! Morrowind felt it has so much more diversity especially with the expansions. I hope they bring back unarmored, lances and enchanting skills and just remake the leveling system it sucked big time. That sounds very negative on oblivion but it was still fairly good. Morrowind was just so much better overall
wiggles 13th December 2010, 16:06 Quote
The review scores will be 8/10 and 9/10 regardless of how good it is.
Zayfod 13th December 2010, 16:11 Quote
Fingers crossed for them using one of ID's engines, what with them both being part of Zenimax and all. Gamebryo is OK, but does have the tenancy to become the crumbliest flakiest engine if the designers get ambitious with it.

More of Morrowind's strangeness and diversity would certainly be appreciated, I would happily forgo a fair amount of graphical spender to have the variety of environments and immersion which Morrowind had.
Yslen 13th December 2010, 16:20 Quote
The levelling system was the same in Oblivion as it was in Morrowind, no? Either way I quite like it, using your skills to improve them makes much more sense to me than just picking the ones you want to get better at. When I finally get conjuration to level 75 and gain the ability to summon new creatures it actually feels like a huge achievement, because to get there I have to use conjuration all the time.

Admittedly there was a bit of a flaw in the system. Choosing a skill as a "major skill" meant increasing it led to levelling up. Leaving say Blunt as a minor skill then levelling it up a lot meant the world difficulty didn't change but your damage with an Axe went through the roof. I never tried this myself, but it seems to be mentioned a lot. I thought there was a system whereby it was impossible to improve your skills above the level of their controlling attribute in Oblivion, though perhaps this needs to be adjusted. A cap at 60 for weapon skills at level one is way way too high in a game that levels all the enemies based on your level and not your skills. Either the caps need to be very strict (and possibly dynamic) or the levelled world needs to be done away with altogether.

Personally I think OOO has the right idea, with levelled enemies that vary within limits; for example a rat or wolf will always be really weak once you reach a certain level, rather than managing to kill you despite your amazing gear and history of massacring Daedra. Similarly with OOO installed any group of enemies would be at a variety of levels; if you're fighting five bandits, two might go down very easily, another two might be the same as in Vanilla Oblivion and the last might be rather harder. It makes fights much more interesting than in Vanilla, where you were practically guaranteed every single battle would be the same level of difficulty regardless of your character build, level, equipment or who you were fighting. It got old fast. I hope Bethesda learns from the many excellent mods that became popular during Oblivion's term.

Back to TES V, If this game is indeed set immediately after the events of Oblivion I assume it's got something to do with the war between the Nords and House Redoran, as is mentioned several times in conversations between NPCs in Oblivion.
docodine 13th December 2010, 17:10 Quote
Bethesda needs to buy TaleWorlds and have them handle the combat.
mastorofpuppetz 13th December 2010, 17:20 Quote
After playing Demons Souls, the combat in oblivion is terrible. Seriously, there are RPG's that do almost everything better then Oblivion, dont know why its so regarded. The game is way behind what other RPG's have done, its dialog, combat, levelling and loot system are all way below par. i think people just get lost in the open world and dont see all the major flaws in this game. IMO, they need to do a lot of work to update its antiquated gameplay.
cheeriokilla 13th December 2010, 17:20 Quote
at last shal I be able to enjoy current gen animations on bethesda's overused rpg styling
Yslen 13th December 2010, 18:18 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by mastorofpuppetz
After playing Demons Souls, the combat in oblivion is terrible. Seriously, there are RPG's that do almost everything better then Oblivion, dont know why its so regarded. The game is way behind what other RPG's have done, its dialog, combat, levelling and loot system are all way below par. i think people just get lost in the open world and dont see all the major flaws in this game. IMO, they need to do a lot of work to update its antiquated gameplay.

Demons Souls was released this year. Oblivion is from 2006, so of course it seems old in comparison. You can't compare something new to a game that's going to be 5 years old in just three months time.

When it came out Oblivion was an amazing and virtually unparalleled experience, so people raved about it. It was also released on consoles and did very well there because most console gamers had never played anything so unrestrictive.

It's still popular on PC today because most of the "major flaws" can be fixed in half an hour by downloading a few mods. The loot and leveling systems are completely fixed in OOO, as I mentioned already.

The combat and dialog are less easy to fix through modding, but again remember how old this game is. March 2006 was over a year and a half before the release of the original Mass Effect, now recognised as a landmark in game voice acting. It was also almost two and a half years before Mount & Blade, which has technically superior (though far more clunky-looking) combat.

Yes, there are better versions of each of these systems in a number of games, but can you name another game that gives you everything Oblivion offers? Even today I don't think such a game exists. Mass Effect et al are all very linear in comparison, while more traditional "hardcore" RPGs lack the immersive first-person combat.

This is exactly why I have a love/hate relationship with Oblivion; it's by no means perfect, but if gives a taste of some perfect RPG that I'm dying to play. Oblivion is certainly not that game, but it's the closest thing to it that I've played so far.
mastorofpuppetz 13th December 2010, 18:33 Quote
Disagree, RPG's older then Oblivion did combat, dialog, quests, loot better, story. Might and magic combat was outstanding.
Aracos 13th December 2010, 18:51 Quote
Hopefully we'll have a final boss this time round like morrowind! And please don't tell me watching something beat something else is a final boss >.>
Waynio 13th December 2010, 19:41 Quote
Brilliant news, I don't like fallout, fallout 3 was ok but 90% boring with all the long walks lol.
Shame next gen consoles aren't around yet, so we will get similar experience to oblivion I think, not that that's a bad thing though, keen to see the new engine though, hopefully it will involve realistic animations :D.
jhng 13th December 2010, 20:02 Quote
Looking forward to this!

However, I do agree with the comments that Morrowind beats Oblivion. Oblivion was good but I did find it really conventional as a world and as a story -- it felt like everyone else in it was very settled and there was no real tension (the Cthulu style 'demonic hordes' thing was straight out of the rpg text book).

By contrast Morrowind was fantastically alien - none of the human colonists really seemed to belong, the indigenous dunmer were both unsettling and sympathetic at the same time, and the environments were really compelling: I remember a storm halfway up the mountain when the sky turned red and there was so much rain, wind and dust that you could barely see the beasts attacking you. Whereas Oblivion felt like visiting France -- A lovely country, but not exactly 'edge of your seat' exciting.

So fingers crossed we get a swing back towards TES3. Given the name, perhaps it will pick up where the Bloodmoon expansion left off (at least in terms of mood/themes)?

Jhng
John_T 13th December 2010, 20:40 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by Yslen
...You can't compare something new to a game that's going to be 5 years old in just three months time.

When it came out Oblivion was an amazing and virtually unparalleled experience, so people raved about it.

Exactly the points I wanted to make!

I do get rather fed-up when people go on about how 'bland' the game looks, when it was breath-taking, (and system crushing) at the time.

Oblivion wasn't without it's faults, (as everyone has already mentioned) and yes, in many ways Morrowind was better - but I'm still hugely excited to see how they'll be moving the game along more than five years after the last one.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jhng
I remember a storm halfway up the mountain when the sky turned red and there was so much rain, wind and dust that you could barely see the beasts attacking you.

Hehe, remember that well!
Quote:
Originally Posted by jhng
So fingers crossed we get a swing back towards TES3. Given the name, perhaps it will pick up where the Bloodmoon expansion left off (at least in terms of mood/themes)?

I was thinking that too...
Yslen 13th December 2010, 20:50 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by mastorofpuppetz
Disagree, RPG's older then Oblivion did combat, dialog, quests, loot better, story. Might and magic combat was outstanding.

Name one that did ALL of those things better in combination, in a single game. That's my point. Plenty of games are better in specific ways, but Oblivion stood alone as a game that offered everything and actually delivered on most of it. The only RPG I've played with a similar level of freedom and non-linearity is Morrowind, but the combat in that game is absolutely terrible, as was the draw distance.
greigaitken 13th December 2010, 21:43 Quote
like already mentioned, oblivion was a ground-breaking experience, in the woods, forest or mountains.
I hope they can make such another ground-breaking experience but thats a tall order and no new consoles for the big bucks. I didnt mind i had to get sli to run it well. If same happens again, i'll be more than happy to see pc gaming progressing further albeit making nvidia richer
mastorofpuppetz 13th December 2010, 22:21 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by Yslen
Name one that did ALL of those things better in combination, in a single game. That's my point. Plenty of games are better in specific ways, but Oblivion stood alone as a game that offered everything and actually delivered on most of it. The only RPG I've played with a similar level of freedom and non-linearity is Morrowind, but the combat in that game is absolutely terrible, as was the draw distance.

Yet Morrowind was better in every other aspect. There are lots of games that offered what oblivion did, how long you been gaming? gothic 1 and 2, ultima, morrowind, etc...... Off the top of my head. Oblivion didnt innovate squat, just made everything easier, and more shallow and watered down. Its laughable you mention draw distance considering the old tech in morrowind, and really irrelevant. Gothic 1 and 2 blow away oblivion, too bad they ruined the gothic series with 3 and arcania. Hell, with patches Gothic III was better. Baldurs gate was very open and was ten times the rpg as oblivion.
Sloth 13th December 2010, 23:03 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by Yslen
Demons Souls was released this year. Oblivion is from 2006, so of course it seems old in comparison. You can't compare something new to a game that's going to be 5 years old in just three months time.

When it came out Oblivion was an amazing and virtually unparalleled experience, so people raved about it. It was also released on consoles and did very well there because most console gamers had never played anything so unrestrictive.

It's still popular on PC today because most of the "major flaws" can be fixed in half an hour by downloading a few mods. The loot and leveling systems are completely fixed in OOO, as I mentioned already.

The combat and dialog are less easy to fix through modding, but again remember how old this game is. March 2006 was over a year and a half before the release of the original Mass Effect, now recognised as a landmark in game voice acting. It was also almost two and a half years before Mount & Blade, which has technically superior (though far more clunky-looking) combat.

Yes, there are better versions of each of these systems in a number of games, but can you name another game that gives you everything Oblivion offers? Even today I don't think such a game exists. Mass Effect et al are all very linear in comparison, while more traditional "hardcore" RPGs lack the immersive first-person combat.

This is exactly why I have a love/hate relationship with Oblivion; it's by no means perfect, but if gives a taste of some perfect RPG that I'm dying to play. Oblivion is certainly not that game, but it's the closest thing to it that I've played so far.
To be fair, combat has little to do with the age of the game. I 100% agree with you, things like graphics and limited voice actors are limitations of the time's hardware and were great for their time, but more basic game design can be created generally at any time.

As a big Demon's Souls fan myself I agree that the combat in DS is far better. It was just designed better than Oblivion, imo. Nothing to do with age or hardware limitations. The side-stepping/rolling is much better (God of War had good rolling on the PS2) and the variety of attacks makes the combat more diverse. Fights feel more immersive compared to Oblivion's run up and start swinging method.

Oblivion's fatal flaw combat wise, again imo, was being so heavily first person based. Third person or at least over the shoulder are much less clunky for combat. God of War in 2005 and Assassin's Creed in 2007 both make great use of a smooth third person camera and are from roughly the same time.

Needless to say, my hopes for Skyrim are a better third person mode.
sausages 13th December 2010, 23:49 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by mastorofpuppetz
After playing Demons Souls, the combat in oblivion is terrible. Seriously, there are RPG's that do almost everything better then Oblivion, dont know why its so regarded. The game is way behind what other RPG's have done, its dialog, combat, levelling and loot system are all way below par. i think people just get lost in the open world and dont see all the major flaws in this game. IMO, they need to do a lot of work to update its antiquated gameplay.

I couldn't agree more. I don't actually know Demons Souls but I play lots of RPG's and also MMORPG's. To me Oblivion is like a totally second rate MMORPG with nobody to play with, a fraction of the loot, a fraction of the content, a smaller world, less locations, less unique dungeons, basically just inferior in absolutely every single way.

The only reason it's popular is because it had killer graphics and because it's so simple, anyone can play it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Yslen
Name one that did ALL of those things better in combination, in a single game. That's my point. Plenty of games are better in specific ways, but Oblivion stood alone as a game that offered everything and actually delivered on most of it. The only RPG I've played with a similar level of freedom and non-linearity is Morrowind, but the combat in that game is absolutely terrible, as was the draw distance.

Well most MMO's do everything Oblivion does but 10 times better. And I can think of some old RPG's that do everything Oblivion does but better, and lots of RPG's that maybe don't do as much in one game, but do most things far better.

I wish Bethesda would finally up their game, or be punished. It won't happen, but that's my wish.
Yslen 14th December 2010, 01:12 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by mastorofpuppetz
Yet Morrowind was better in every other aspect. There are lots of games that offered what oblivion did, how long you been gaming? gothic 1 and 2, ultima, morrowind, etc...... Off the top of my head. Oblivion didnt innovate squat, just made everything easier, and more shallow and watered down. Its laughable you mention draw distance considering the old tech in morrowind, and really irrelevant. Gothic 1 and 2 blow away oblivion, too bad they ruined the gothic series with 3 and arcania. Hell, with patches Gothic III was better. Baldurs gate was very open and was ten times the rpg as oblivion.

Better in every other aspect? Really? I wasn't a huge fan of Morrowind's voice acting, I have to say.

There were loads of other rubbish things about it that were fixed in Oblivion too, though nobody ever seems to mention the stuff Bethesda got right. Everyone complains about the dull leveled world, but I remember well the 100% static world of Morrowind that had very little replayability because everything was the same the second time through. You could even remember where you got something cool and go pick it up. There was a sword in one of the watch towers in Balmora that you could flog for some cash as soon as you start playing, and the Amulet of Shadows (which made you practically invincible) was in a pond by the side of a road north of Ald Ruhn, I believe. Once I'd played through once I lost any real desire to explore the same world a second time.

Oblivion has random enemies and random loot, so you never know what you'll find. Granted, the vanilla version of the game was far too limited in terms of item and creature level variation, but this was easily fixed by the modding community not long after launch. It could never have been made the game I'm playing right now without the underlying systems Bethesda created and allowed the modders to tweak.

All those games you mentioned are great, I'm sure, but they're irrelevent. I was trying to explain why Oblivion was and is popular. Those games are all really old and ugly, lets be honest. If you're looking to be immersed in an RPG it's much harder when you're constantly thinking "my God this is ugly". Oblivion still looks gorgeous with a couple of mods (though requires SSDs in RAID to load all the textures without any pauses) and that's part of the reason it's popular. Like I said, people like it because it does everything. It might not do specific things as well as older games but they are all missing something else that Oblivion has, I can guarantee. Where is the voice acting in the Gothic series? Where is the first person 3d perspective in Baldur's Gate?

RPG doesn't have to mean a complex system of die rolls, but to me it DOES have to mean a completely immersive world. Oblivion does that the best, so far, because it has everything you need. It's huge, it's pretty, it's first-person, you can go anywhere and do whatever you want in whatever order you like, you have a decent enough combat system, a decent enough magic system, challenging enemies, NPCs that talk to you with real voices, plenty of quests with pretty good writing in many places, NPCs that walk around and seem to have lives of their own... and that's just the vanilla game. Yes it could be improved massively in many areas and Bethesda should indeed look to the classics of the genre for inspiration on how to do this, but I honestly believe they are on the right track. They have the makings of an incredible game already in Oblivion and I think we should all be hoping that they don't get scared by everyone saying "Oblivion sucked!" and return to the days of weapons that constantly missed due to invisible dice rolls or NPCs that don't speak because that way you can't tell they've only got half a dozen voice actors available.

Oblivion was a massive leap forwards and I think people should appreciate that!

@Sloth: Yes I just looked at some videos, it looks very good for combat. I'd want to stick with first person for immersion reasons, and I imagine that's why they have problems with the third-person mode: first person gets in the way, but it's what most people will use and therefore takes precedence. I think we can all expect a better combat system from this new TES engine as they've had 5 years to work on it already!

@Sausages: I've never seen or played an MMO that comes close to Oblivion in terms of graphics, player perspective or combat. They all seem to be third person RPGs from 2002 with horrible horrible lag every time you tell your character to attack because it's all turn-based underneath. Also, there's a monthly fee. I paid £12 for Oblivion in 2008 and haven't paid a penny more since. If you can't enjoy games that aren't multiplayer that's fine, but I generally prefer a single player story driven experience. Usually when I play with people online they just annoy me so much I go play something else; such was my experience with Guild Wars and Eve.

You are exactly right when you say other games don't do as much in one. I can't grab the story from one game, the combat from another and the magic system from a third. Oblivion does almost everything well, even if it's beaten by other games on specific points. When you average the whole experience out it's one of the best RPGs I've ever played and without question it is the most immersive, due to the focus on first-person gameplay in a gorgeous world.
Elton 14th December 2010, 02:18 Quote
I will admit, Oblivion isn't the greatest game ever, but it is still one hell of a game. Plus I love the literary references.

As for the combat, Improve it in the 3rd person, add all the stuff cut out from Morrowind, and make horse combat possible.

In fact just make TES:V have all the features of a fully modded Oblivion with FCOM and Deadly Reflex mods, that coupled with a non-Gamebryo Engine would be brilliant.
wgasa 14th December 2010, 05:42 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by Waynio
Brilliant news, I don't like fallout, fallout 3 was ok but 90% boring with all the long walks lol.
Shame next gen consoles aren't around yet, so we will get similar experience to oblivion I think, not that that's a bad thing though, keen to see the new engine though, hopefully it will involve realistic animations :D.

pc's got 5 years of hardware improvements. who needs next gen?
docodine 14th December 2010, 05:58 Quote
@wgasa

Big jumps in PC game visual quality tend to come with new console generations, I think that's what Waynio means.
thehippoz 14th December 2010, 05:59 Quote
finished venetica and I felt like someone punched me in the face.. I mean it could have been beaten in a coma! like I was the console retard ha.. I will never doubt joe's numbers on his game reviews again

liked oblivion and the expansions.. should be fun- mass effect 3 looks good too from the trailer

oh here's some screenshots that sum up the console gamer very well courtesy of venetica

http://img98.imageshack.us/img98/3158/venetica201012120310401.jpg http://img844.imageshack.us/img844/7096/venetica201012131429145.jpg
aleph31 14th December 2010, 09:14 Quote
Imho Morrowind was far better than Oblivion:

- Far bigger, more diverse world map

- Much more immersion, the world seemed to be more open, the main storyline was obscure... Oblivion was a sandbox but there was a clear path to follow from the beginning. In Morrowind, you could choose to follow many different paths, there were more guilds, much more side quests on each guild...

- No incremental / balanced enemy level please (in Oblivion, I saw a farmer with a daedric armour... crap). I want to become super-powerful and come back to that scary middle-of-the-game enemy race and destroy it with a finger

- You could literally become a demigod in Morrowind. The level system and enchanted items that you could find or create allowed you to reach tremendous levels of power.

- Levitation: a total plus!!!! I enchanted my boots so I could keep flying all the time during my travels... that was soooo coool...

And a side note: please no MMO nor multiplayer...
mastorofpuppetz 14th December 2010, 13:39 Quote
Cant take anyone serious when they say "oblivion was a massive step forward". how? It did zero new, only did what was previously done much worse. Oblivion is like marijuana, its a gateway RPG, its easy for non rpg's to play, but once you get into them there is much better around. Prob the worst levelling system, loot scaling (No random loot like you said, its scaled), worst dialog, lack of choices and consequences, terrible dialog, worst ever mini game (Speech). The world is being invaded and everyone walks around saying the "Fighters guild is hiring". Game is shallow tripe.
mastorofpuppetz 14th December 2010, 13:41 Quote
Immersive world? Like every dungeon being the same with every bandit having daedric armour killin any reason the find rare loot? World being invaded and people walk around like nothing happening? You might want to re-look at your claim oblivion was great because of immersion. Things that break immersion are at every corner, like the worst robotic animations I have ever seen.
mastorofpuppetz 14th December 2010, 13:43 Quote
I see why you like Oblivion so much "Its huge, pretty, lots to do", LMAO, that does not a great RPG make. Its a RPG for COD gamers. Oblivion bets immersion? LMAO, hardly.
Evildead666 14th December 2010, 16:02 Quote
Woooooooooooooooooooot!!

DX11 Goodness ;)

Will be building a new PC for Nov next year then.
Waynio 14th December 2010, 16:23 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by Evildead666
Woooooooooooooooooooot!!

DX11 Goodness ;)

Will be building a new PC for Nov next year then.

Yeah & to be honest Two worlds 2 on PC looks & plays freaking gorgeous with max settings so I suppose pc games aren't entirely reliant on new consoles IF the devs cater properly .
Blackie Chan 14th December 2010, 20:54 Quote
Morrowind was my absolute favorite single player game of all time. I hope to hell that they make Skyrim more like Morrowind and less like Oblivion.
sausages 15th December 2010, 04:06 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by Yslen
@Sausages: I've never seen or played an MMO that comes close to Oblivion in terms of graphics, player perspective or combat.
For graphics, I prefer Vanguard and Age of Conan to Oblivion, but really there's not much in it. I would never argue that Oblivion didn't do an amazing job with graphics, my gripe with the Elder Scrolls games are that the gameplay is ****.

I'm not sure what you mean by player perspective, but combat is something I could defend forever. It's pretty much the biggest thing in my gaming life. I live for RPG combat, and I know it inside out. To me, Oblivion is some of the worst combat I've ever seen. I like that it's fluid and plays like an FPS which is quite good (although I'd rather just play a real FPS if I want that kind of thing). What I hate is that it's so shallow. As a melee or hybrid character there is little more to it than left click to swing your weapon, and right click to block, with a few spells to help you out. As a spellcaster, you spend most of the game running around, spamming your crappy generic firebolt spell like the most tedious FPS ever made. Later on when you can make spells, you can make a spell that kills 99% of enemies with one shot. It's got to be the worst I've ever seen, by quite a big margin.

I wasn't all that impressed by Dragon Age, but to think that each character in that game is comparable to Oblivion and yet you have a whole party of them, just shows how far behind Oblivion is. As for MMORPG's, I don't know what MMORPG's you've played but most of the ones I've played have first person views, and most of them are leaps and bounds ahead of Oblivion. I could explain it but there's too much in those games to even explain, but even in the likes of WoW, the combat is far more advanced, and most MMORPG fans consider WoW to be a kid friendly simple game.

Something like Vanguard absolutely craps all over Oblivion in every respect. The only comparable thing would be the graphics (and even that I would give to Vanguard), but everything else, is miles better than Oblivion. The world is probably multiple times bigger, it has dozens more varieties of locations, it has an amazing crafting and harvesting system, it has flying mounts, player owned ships that they can sail, it has better music (and far more of it), better UI, infinitely more spells and combat abilities, better everything basically, and it has some of the best combat you can find outside of specialist titles like Magic The Gathering.

As for cost, that's a different discussion. We're talking about gameplay, not which game is the best value for money. Although even with that, there are some free games that I would much rather plan than Oblivion anyway.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Yslen

If you can't enjoy games that aren't multiplayer that's fine, but I generally prefer a single player story driven experience. Usually when I play with people online they just annoy me so much I go play something else; such was my experience with Guild Wars and Eve.
Most of what I play is single player. I prefer a story driven game too, but to me, gameplay is the most important thing. If all I want is a good story, then there are far better ways to get that, like reading a book. When I'm looking for good gameplay, I will play anything, any genre, online or offline.

I think Eve and Guild Wars (which isn't even an MMO) gave you a bad impression. The whole point of MMO's are that they are massive. They are filled with real people in the same way that real life is filled with real people. If someone annoys you, move on and play with other people. That's what it's all about, and eventually you make friends and join guilds and that way you get to just spend all your time surrounded by people you like.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Yslen
You are exactly right when you say other games don't do as much in one. I can't grab the story from one game, the combat from another and the magic system from a third.
No I didn't say that. I said that there ARE games that do as much in one, and some that do it better than Oblivion. Like I said, most MMORPG's do everything Oblivion does, but far better. But there are single player games that do that too. In fact there were single player RPG's like Betrayal At Krondor doing as much as Oblivion, about 20 years ago.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Yslen

Oblivion does almost everything well, even if it's beaten by other games on specific points. When you average the whole experience out it's one of the best RPGs I've ever played and without question it is the most immersive, due to the focus on first-person gameplay in a gorgeous world.

That's just your opinion. Mine is different. I think it does almost everything badly. I like it's graphics, but I can't think of ONE other redeeming feature. It has a very bland world with hardly any variety at all, it has cut and paste dungeons that are all the same, and all too small, it has about 4 different types of enemy in the entire game, (and the same with voices), it has a main quest that I could complete in about one afternoon, it's filled with the most generic of side quests, it has no real tradeskills, and it has some of the worst combat I've ever seen.
Quote:
Originally Posted by mastorofpuppetz
"Its huge, pretty, lots to do", LMAO, that does not a great RPG make. Its a RPG for COD gamers.

Exactly. It's all flashyness and no substance. Besides graphics, it's a step backwards from even Morrowind, and even Morrowind wouldn't make my top 10 RPG's.
John_T 15th December 2010, 10:18 Quote
Hi sausages,

I agree with some of the criticisms you've made, a number of them are fair, (ie, limited combat) but I also think a number of them are not.

Talking about graphics for a moment, you compare it to Vanguard and Age of Conan, but:
Oblivion: 2006
Vanguard: 2007
Age of Conan: 2008

So there's a difference right there. Plus both of those are MMO's, so will have ongoing development on them.

Dragon Age was made in 2009, so again, hardly a fair or equal comparison.

You talk about the MMO's being multiples bigger than Oblivion with tons more content - well I should hope so, they're MMO's! You can't in one breath say they're massively bigger and more content-rich, then in the next breath say you shouldn't compare costs - costs in that respect are everything.

Oblivion: Say £25 (when it came out).
MMO: £25 + what? £9 per month for a couple of years?
£25 + (£9 x 24) = £241.

If you're paying ten time the amount I think it's fair to expect at least ten times the content - just as you wouldn't directly compare a Ford Focus (£15k) to a Lamborghini Gallardo (£150k), because while they're both driving experiences, they're in different leagues of expectation.

Also don't forget that in MMO's the player experience is constantly tweaked, refined and added to over the course of it's life, constantly rebalancing and improving the experience. That's what subscription buys.

They may both be fantasy games, but really, they are very different choices. I used to play MMO's but gave up due to time constraints - whereas something like the Elder Scrolls can be picked up for a spare half hour and then put back again. You really can't do that with an MMO, not if you're playing with other people or are part of a guild - once you log in you're expected to complete a certain quest/mission, which usually ends up taking hours.

Don't get me wrong, I think Oblivion was 'dumbed-down' considerably even from Morrowind, (for it's console release no doubt) I just think expectations of a single player, one-fee game have to be kept realistic.

If they can fix some of the major gripes people had with it: Enemy levelling for example, (which should be easy to fix) I think the next one could be superb.

I'm looking forward to it anyway. In November...
sausages 16th December 2010, 02:06 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by John_T
Hi sausages,

I agree with some of the criticisms you've made, a number of them are fair, (ie, limited combat) but I also think a number of them are not.

Talking about graphics for a moment, you compare it to Vanguard and Age of Conan, but:
Oblivion: 2006
Vanguard: 2007
Age of Conan: 2008

So there's a difference right there. Plus both of those are MMO's, so will have ongoing development on them.

Dragon Age was made in 2009, so again, hardly a fair or equal comparison.
That's not really relevant. You can't keep throwing in conditions, or I could do the same. Like for example, it's not fair because Oblivion is bound to look so good because it's world is so much smaller.

But I don't want to keep going on about graphics. I'm not interested in them. I am happy to admit that Oblivion had amazing graphics and it was fantastic looking and still looks good even today etc.. But I don't care, because I'm one of those unusual people who plays games for their gameplay more than the way they look, and that's what disappoints me the most about the Elder Scrolls games.
Quote:
Originally Posted by John_T

You talk about the MMO's being multiples bigger than Oblivion with tons more content - well I should hope so, they're MMO's! You can't in one breath say they're massively bigger and more content-rich, then in the next breath say you shouldn't compare costs - costs in that respect are everything.

Oblivion: Say £25 (when it came out).
MMO: £25 + what? £9 per month for a couple of years?
£25 + (£9 x 24) = £241.
That's just another condition you are trying to throw in. Like I said, we are talking about the quality of gameplay not which is the best value for money. You are trying to turn the discussion away from what it was meant to be about. I'm arguing that the gameplay is crappy, and especially crappy compared to the alternatives. The money doesn't have anything to do with that, that's to do with value for money, and not quality of gameplay. Besides, like I said, there are MMO's which are free to play monthly, and there are even some that are free to play and free to buy too - ie: they cost absolutely nothing at all, ever.
Quote:
Originally Posted by John_T

If you're paying ten time the amount I think it's fair to expect at least ten times the content - just as you wouldn't directly compare a Ford Focus (£15k) to a Lamborghini Gallardo (£150k), because while they're both driving experiences, they're in different leagues of expectation.
That's not even a sensible analogy though. The difference is that a not many people can afford £150k on a car, but most people can afford to play an MMO if they want to. One game might cost more than the other, but seeing as I can easily afford both, I don't care about the cost. All I care about is which is the better game. Again if you are going to throw in conditions to try to make the argument I could do the same and say a packet of crisps are a better meal than a restaurant meal because they are many times cheaper. When what you want is a nice meal, it doesn't matter how cheap a pack of crisps are.
Quote:
Originally Posted by John_T
I used to play MMO's but gave up due to time constraints - whereas something like the Elder Scrolls can be picked up for a spare half hour and then put back again. You really can't do that with an MMO, not if you're playing with other people or are part of a guild - once you log in you're expected to complete a certain quest/mission, which usually ends up taking hours.
You can do that in MMO's. Some people find it hard to do because they are so hooked, and they aren't prepared to manage their time properly, but it's perfectly possible. I know lots of people who play MMORPG's and play just a few hours in an entire week. It's also just another condition that really doesn't have anything to do with the quality of gameplay we've been trying to talk about.

Quote:
Originally Posted by John_T

Don't get me wrong, I think Oblivion was 'dumbed-down' considerably even from Morrowind, (for it's console release no doubt) I just think expectations of a single player, one-fee game have to be kept realistic.

If they can fix some of the major gripes people had with it: Enemy levelling for example, (which should be easy to fix) I think the next one could be superb.

I'm looking forward to it anyway. In November...
It's not an unrealistic expectation, it's just people with different priorities. In my view, their priority with Oblivion was getting a big dumbed down, mainstream game, that attracts the mass market audience with flashy graphics, can be sold on all formats, and that is basic enough that anyone can play, any age, any skill level, and so it sells incredibly well. They achieved that well, but the high sales are no consolation to those of us who just care about a good gameplay experience. I like modern graphics, but I would prefer a game that prioritises gameplay far beyond flashy presentation.
knownballer 16th December 2010, 02:09 Quote
Hmm... I didn't expect Oblivion to take such a hard bashing...

Oblivion was an incredible game. Morrowind was an incredible game. I see a lot of people attacking both for particular things they did and didn't do. Take both of them as a full experience, for what they are. They are both different games.

Now, having said that Morrowind was better. Better and probably should have got much more praise than it did. At the time it was released, it did things that were unprecedented. It allowed you to totally immerse yourself in a world and do what you want, a concept relatively new at the time (save GTA, though ESIII probably accomplished this much better). Though it didn't get a lot of attention because of both GTA and the fact that it was inaccessible. It was a hard core gamer's game.

Oblivion was much less a new experience than it was a "where do we go from here?" game. Instead of taking the overload you with stuff to do approach, Bethesda decided to scale back on the size, and instead try to create a more detailed experience. Think about the voice acting. Something we take for granted now with games like mass effect out, it was something that at the time, and even now, hasn't really been accomplished in a rpg that size.

I look at Oblivion as something like a Jade Empire and and Elder Scrolls 3.5. We'll improve on the complaints of the original and experiment with some new stuff that will hopefully come to fruition in a later game (we'll have to see when this is released). And it ended up being an incredible experience. I just hope that they don't go and try to make another mass effect. That's the only shortfall I see possible with this one.
John_T 16th December 2010, 12:37 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by sausages
That's not really relevant. You can't keep throwing in conditions....

What are you talking about? I answer some of your points, and I'm not allowed to because it's not fair? What?

You compare a game to some that are nearly four years newer, or ones still under constant development - I point that out and that's unfair of me?

You compare a game to one that costs many, many times more - I point out that's not a fair comparison and I'm not allowed to do that?

The reason I brought up the subject of money was this:
Quote:
Originally Posted by sausages
Something like Vanguard absolutely craps all over Oblivion in every respect. .... The world is probably multiple times bigger, it has dozens more varieties of locations, it has an amazing crafting and harvesting system, it has flying mounts, player owned ships that they can sail, it has better music (and far more of it), better UI, infinitely more spells and combat abilities, better everything basically.

Yes. And it's an MMO: Which has monthly subscriptions, which pays for developers to keep developing and improving and expanding it.

Why is that an unreasonable point to make?

You cannot fairly compare a standalone product of nearly five years ago to a modern, subscription based MMO under constant development. It's an absurd comparison. I think the fact that you're even attempting to do so speaks volumes about the scope, scale and ambition of Oblivion in the first place.
Quote:
Originally Posted by sausages
That's not even a sensible analogy though. The difference is that a not many people can afford £150k on a car, but most people can afford to play an MMO if they want to. One game might cost more than the other, but seeing as I can easily afford both, I don't care about the cost. All I care about is which is the better game. Again if you are going to throw in conditions to try to make the argument I could do the same and say a packet of crisps are a better meal than a restaurant meal because they are many times cheaper. When what you want is a nice meal, it doesn't matter how cheap a pack of crisps are.

OK, I'm not really convinced you even understand what an analogy is after that. (Or the concept of value).

The point I was trying to make was that if you pay a lot more for something then the expectation level will be greater. Or put another way, if you pay a great deal less than the expectation level should be lower. You shouldn't really need to actually afford a £150k car to understand the point I was making...

The fact that you can afford both standalone games and MMO's does not make it fair to compare them to each-other. And the crisps to a meal analogy is nonsense, as you're not comparing like for like. If you need to be able to actually afford it to understand the comparison I was trying to make, then compare a £5 meal in a cafe to a £50 meal in a restaurant. Yes you expect the £5 meal to be enjoyable, but not on the same level of perfection as the £50 one.

Is that really such a bizarre point I'm trying to make?

The point I made about MMO's vs a single player, standalone game - that you can dip in and out of the single game easier - was meant to be just that, it's easier. I wasn't suggesting that to play MMO's you have to be hooked on 8 hours a night. However, if you're playing with a bunch of other people and you go on a quest together, it's not really very good etiquette to simply check out halfway through - as depending on the role you were playing in the group you may end the quest for everyone. You start doing that too often and you soon lose friends in the game.

That's not a criticism of the genre, just pointing out an important difference and why some people prefer one over the other.

Look, we both agree on certain aspects of it: That the combat could be improved, that elements of it were too simplistic or should have been better - I'm just saying it needs to be judged of its time, not against modern games of an entirely different model.
javaman 16th December 2010, 15:43 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by sausages
/snip

Has Warrior returned?? he was the last person i saw on these forums use this level of idiocy to argue a point!
sausages 16th December 2010, 23:37 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by knownballer
Hmm... I didn't expect Oblivion to take such a hard bashing...
Only from a few of us though. Most people like it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by javaman
Has Warrior returned?? he was the last person i saw on these forums use this level of idiocy to argue a point!

? What have I said that is idiotic? Or are you just trolling.
Quote:
Originally Posted by John_T
What are you talking about? I answer some of your points, and I'm not allowed to because it's not fair? What?
Surely I explained my point pretty clearly, numerous times. You are comparing the VALUE FOR MONEY of games, when I'm just comparing how good they are. What is about that which you just can't understand?
Quote:
Originally Posted by John_T

Yes. And it's an MMO: Which has monthly subscriptions, which pays for developers to keep developing and improving and expanding it.
That game barely had any development since release. It was released on day one like that.
Quote:
Originally Posted by John_T
Why is that an unreasonable point to make?
I've explained it already, read it again ffs.
Quote:
Originally Posted by John_T

You cannot fairly compare a standalone product of nearly five years ago to a modern, subscription based MMO under constant development. It's an absurd comparison. I think the fact that you're even attempting to do so speaks volumes about the scope, scale and ambition of Oblivion in the first place.
You are talking about a year difference at the most, and besides, it's not even a good point seeing as Everquest came out several years earlier than Oblivion, does everything better, and has a smaller budget. How are you going to defend that?

Not to even mention single player equivalents like the early Might & Magic or Wizardry games, or Betrayal At Krondor etc.. or all the countless none first person games which are amazing like the Fallout games, BG1+2 etc, and yet they are no less immersive either.

Quote:
Originally Posted by John_T

OK, I'm not really convinced you even understand what an analogy is after that. (Or the concept of value).

The point I was trying to make was that if you pay a lot more for something then the expectation level will be greater. Or put another way, if you pay a great deal less than the expectation level should be lower. You shouldn't really need to actually afford a £150k car to understand the point I was making...
So you are talking about 'modifying your expectation levels' based on price, not treating everything equally... In other words, you are biased because it's cheap.

Quote:
Originally Posted by John_T
The fact that you can afford both standalone games and MMO's does not make it fair to compare them to each-other. And the crisps to a meal analogy is nonsense, as you're not comparing like for like. If you need to be able to actually afford it to understand the comparison I was trying to make, then compare a £5 meal in a cafe to a £50 meal in a restaurant. Yes you expect the £5 meal to be enjoyable, but not on the same level of perfection as the £50 one.

Is that really such a bizarre point I'm trying to make?
You are the one failing to understand the point. I'm talking about a price difference that is so insignificant to some of us, that it just doesn't even matter.

Your price angle is a crappy argument too, because I've already told you about games that are completely free, including MMORPG's.
Quote:
Originally Posted by John_T

However, if you're playing with a bunch of other people and you go on a quest together, it's not really very good etiquette to simply check out halfway through - as depending on the role you were playing in the group you may end the quest for everyone. You start doing that too often and you soon lose friends in the game.
That's not much of an argument either. All you do is play for a couple of hours and then solo for a while and don't start any new group stuff before you need to leave. Don't blame peoples lack of self control on the genre.
Quote:
Originally Posted by John_T

Look, we both agree on certain aspects of it: That the combat could be improved, that elements of it were too simplistic or should have been better - I'm just saying it needs to be judged of its time, not against modern games of an entirely different model.

That's just your age argument again. You don't have any valid argument, all you have is AGE and PRICE and both of them are bad arguments. There are examples of older games than Oblivion which do things better, I told you why price isn't relevant to anything except value for money, and most importantly of all, all of this crap has NOTHING TO DO WITH THE GAMEPLAY which is what we were discussing before you came along and tried to drag the discussion in to a completely different direction to suit yourself.
sausages 16th December 2010, 23:49 Quote
.
John_T 17th December 2010, 19:52 Quote
Sausages,

I logged in to counter some of what you said, but thinking about it, I'd just be wasting my time wouldn't I?

- You fail completely to understand the points I'm trying to make, (not just that you disagree with them, but that you simply don't even understand them).
- Accuse me of 'imposing conditions' or 'taking the subject off course', when actually I'm just countering your own arguments and comparisons.
- Argue with me even where I'm agreeing with you.
- Then throw in some SHOUTING AT ME for good measure.

This clearly wasn't a discussion, it was a competition. Well, I hereby withdraw and declare you the winner.

You beat me, well done.
sausages 17th December 2010, 23:32 Quote
I understood everything you said, but all you can say is that it's cheap and old. That's your only angle. It's not hard to understand at all, it's just a lame argument and has nothing to do with gameplay.
Gh0stDrag0n 20th December 2010, 00:10 Quote
Morrowind + mods = Awesome!
Oblivion + mods = Awesome!
Skyrim + mods ...

What makes PC gaming the greatest?... MODS!

Those of you that didn't think Morrowind or Oblivion were great games did not mod enough.
Look at any game that gives you the tools to mod the hell out of it as an open book or a gateway to unlimited creativity.
Dutch Fellow 22nd December 2010, 15:08 Quote
Did you know that the Skyrim logo can be found in the Oblivion game?? Just go to the Imperial City, the TESV logo is on the gates!

Here is a screenshot for if you don't want to start up Oblivion:
http://img26.imageshack.us/i/skyrimlogoinoblivion.png/
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