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Microsoft knew about Xbox 360 disc scratching?

Microsoft knew about Xbox 360 disc scratching?

Microsoft may have known that the Xbox 360 drive would scratch discs for a long, long time it seems.

Comments from a Microsoft employee have revealed that the company may have known that the design of the Xbox 360 would damage game discs from before the console was even launched, but chose to continue with the design anyway.

The comments apparently emerged as part of a class action lawsuit in the US which is focusing on the damage done to Xbox 360 discs by the console drive itself.

The testimony in question comes from Microsoft Program Manager Hiroo Umeno, who says that Microsoft was well aware that game discs could be scratched when the console is repositioned.

"This is ... information that we as a team, [the] optical disc drive team, knew about. When we first discovered the problem in September or October, when we got a first report of disc movement, we knew this is what’s causing the problem," said Umero according to Ars Technica.

Apparently at least three different solutions were put forward by Umeno's team, but each of them was rejected. Microsoft ruled out slowing down the speed of the drive to avoid lengthened load times and would not consider adding bumpers to the disc drive (which is routine in other consumer drives) as it would be too expensive at 25p per console.

Further reading of the lawsuit reveals that Microsoft has had more than 55,000 complaints about scratched discs as of April this year. Have you been affected? Let us know in the forums.

45 Comments

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liratheal 16th December 2008, 11:29 Quote
Sorry, don't care.

It states, everywhere, that moving the console DURING OPERATION will cause disk damage.

It's pretty ****ing obvious that you don't move something with a spinning disk in it.

Don't give me this 'accidentally knocked over' crap, because that's your fault for standing it vertically somewhere where it could get knocked over.

Mine have both been vertical and horizontal in their lives, and I have yet to lose a disk to scratching. I've yet to have one knocked over. I lived with three chocolate labs, all completely nuts, and very capable of knocking stuff over (Buster knocked a table over once), and a klutz of a mother - Both consoles survived that vertically.

Take care of your console and this is not an issue. At all. In any aspect.

Edit: As a side note, the current sold consoles would cost 5.5million (Assuming 22million consoles, at 25pence per console) to have these rubber 'buffers' which would just scuff disks anyway. Check the custom installs of them, usually four rubber pads, for more info from people who've gone through the effort to see what happens.
kylew 16th December 2008, 11:36 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by liratheal
Sorry, don't care.

It states, everywhere, that moving the console DURING OPERATION will cause disk damage.

It's pretty ****ing obvious that you don't move something with a spinning disk in it.

Don't give me this 'accidentally knocked over' crap, because that's your fault for standing it vertically somewhere where it could get knocked over.

Mine have both been vertical and horizontal in their lives, and I have yet to lose a disk to scratching. I've yet to have one knocked over. I lived with three chocolate labs, all completely nuts, and very capable of knocking stuff over (Buster knocked a table over once), and a klutz of a mother - Both consoles survived that vertically.

Take care of your console and this is not an issue. At all. In any aspect.

Don't be so narrow minded. At 25p per console? It's something they should have done. Just because you don't knock your console about, doesn't mean that it's impossible for it to happen to anyone else. Kids have xboxes you know? They're not known to be the most careful of people. Or what about people with young kids who like to touch and mess about with anything they can get their hands on? Talk about cheaping out. They could have just done it and added £5 onto their sale price, no-one would have been aware of anything.
perplekks45 16th December 2008, 11:50 Quote
I have to agree with liratheal here. My 360 is standing under the TV in a rack, secure and easily accessible. But even if you don't have a TV rack, there's always a place to put it so nothing can happen. If all else fails put it down. If it lies it can't be knocked over.
And yeah, kids... how many games are there for kids anyways? We're not talking about the Wii are we? :p
liratheal 16th December 2008, 11:51 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by kylew
Don't be so narrow minded. At 25p per console? It's something they should have done. Just because you don't knock your console about, doesn't mean that it's impossible for it to happen to anyone else. Kids have xboxes you know? They're not known to be the most careful of people. Or what about people with young kids who like to touch and mess about with anything they can get their hands on? Talk about cheaping out. They could have just done it and added £5 onto their sale price, no-one would have been aware of anything.

Sorry but that argument is ****.

Playing your console during an earthquake, or a hurricane, could cause damage to it. Does that mean Microsoft should pay for repairs to a console that was damaged through user stupidity?

If you have kids, it's your responsibility to make sure your console is properly placed to avoid damage. It's not that hard - Put it out of reach. If you buy your kid an xbox, and he/she damages it because he/she cannot follow simple instructions (As a parent I'd read the manual and give them a list of do's and don'ts - I know kids don't like reading manuals, I never did like it either), then it's their own damned fault.

What part of anyone, with any common sense, would stand the console veritcally around kids, or other accident prone beings (Animals, klutzes)? What part of anyone with any common sense would move the console during use?

It's in the manual. It's common sense. It's not like they didn't tell anyone. It's in the manual, which is bundled with every console shipped, is online, and is recommended reading before the console is used. If people choose not to take the time to read the 20-odd pages that's in their language, then it's their own damned fault, not Microsofts.
asphinx 16th December 2008, 11:54 Quote
liratheal, I am happy for your sake. If you have had no issues with scratched disk (related to Xbox 360 of course) then you should consider yourself lucky.
Myself, not as much. Having NEVER moved the console during operation or hardly otherwise for that matter, I have still suffered damaged discs. Nor has it never been knocked over, or even knocked at all. Sometimes I think I'm a bit too anal with my technology. :P (I agree, that if you're dumb enough to move anything whilst there's a disc spinning inside of it, well you pretty much deserve everything you had comin').
I'm still so lucky that the discs in question are still readable, ergo usable. My friend is not as lucky, same conditions but his Halo 3 disc won't work anymore and unfortunately for him. He can't even install it to the hard drive (NXE Update).

My side note, as a counter-argument to yours. Wouldn't it be cheaper in the long run, to have made the drives LESS faulty, ergo not having to later on reimburse costumers for faulty hardware? And that's not even calculating in the costs of public relations when the costumer feels like he just got pissed in the face by Microsoft. Excuse by harsh language.
chiper136 16th December 2008, 11:57 Quote
Whist his attitude is kinda s****y I have to agree. I have had my 360 for years with no issues and this includes times I have taken it to a friends house forgetting to take the disk out.

My issues is still with the RROD. You can't argue that away.
shigllgetcha 16th December 2008, 12:05 Quote
it wasnt through movin the console while it was on they mean disc movement while its in the tray. not moving the console

if they only got 55,000 thousand complaints im sure its cheaper to fix it afterwards
liratheal 16th December 2008, 12:08 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by asphinx
liratheal, I am happy for your sake. If you have had no issues with scratched disk (related to Xbox 360 of course) then you should consider yourself lucky.
Myself, not as much. Having NEVER moved the console during operation or hardly otherwise for that matter, I have still suffered damaged discs. Nor has it never been knocked over, or even knocked at all. Sometimes I think I'm a bit too anal with my technology. :P (I agree, that if you're dumb enough to move anything whilst there's a disc spinning inside of it, well you pretty much deserve everything you had comin').
I'm still so lucky that the discs in question are still readable, ergo usable. My friend is not as lucky, same conditions but his Halo 3 disc won't work anymore and unfortunately for him. He can't even install it to the hard drive (NXE Update).

My side note, as a counter-argument to yours. Wouldn't it be cheaper in the long run, to have made the drives LESS faulty, ergo not having to later on reimburse costumers for faulty hardware? And that's not even calculating in the costs of public relations when the costumer feels like he just got pissed in the face by Microsoft. Excuse by harsh language.

That's an entirely different situation, though. These people are moaning because they moved their console while it was running, and the disks got scratched.

You and your friend, if there was honest to god no movement of the console, are in a position where a complaint can be sensibly made. If you were suing, then I'd be concerned for your state of mind, but complaint and request of free repair (As it is entirely the hardware, not you) would be within reason.

The rubber pads don't solve anything with 100% certainty - It's been demonstrated by custom installed rubber pads that have been installed by aftermarket packs of rubber buffers.
kylew 16th December 2008, 12:48 Quote
I think some of you have completely missed the point. It would have cost an additional 25p, less than a decent chocolate bar, to implement something that would mean discs didn't get scratched at all? How is that difficult to understand? It's bizzare that would be ommited for the sake of 25p.

As I said ealier, regardless of what you like to believe, just because you haven't had the issue, it doesn't mean that some one is stupid if it happens to them. Like I said, there's many reasons and ways for someone's console to accidentally move while in operation.

And for the sake of 25p, it wouldn't be an issue, what's so hard to understand about that?
DragunovHUN 16th December 2008, 12:51 Quote
I'm with liratheal on this one.
liratheal 16th December 2008, 12:53 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by kylew
I think some of you have completely missed the point. It would have cost an additional 25p, less than a decent chocolate bar, to implement something that would mean discs didn't get scratched at all? How is that difficult to understand? It's bizzare that would be ommited for the sake of 25p.

As I said ealier, regardless of what you like to believe, just because you haven't had the issue, it doesn't mean that some one is stupid if it happens to them. Like I said, there's many reasons and ways for someone's console to accidentally move while in operation.

And for the sake of 25p, it wouldn't be an issue, what's so hard to understand about that?

As I have said, twice now, the aftermarket rubber stoppers that are available do not eliminate the problem 100%. So they would have embarked on this 5.5 million pound adventure to do what, exactly?

Oh, right, still have a lawsuit filed against them by, probably, the same people.

And, sorry, but if you put your console in a position where something could knock it over, then you are stupid. Or so careless that it passes as stupid. Either way - It is entirely your fault and not Microsofts, and as such, not Microsofts responsibility to fix it.
asphinx 16th December 2008, 13:03 Quote
You would be concerned for my state of mind? May I ask why? And to answer the question you really didn't ask, no I'm not suing nor have I any intent of suing as of right now. As previously stated the discs that are scratched are still usable and therefore I see no reason to pursue well.. anything from Microsoft. If or more likely when any of my discs stop working then I will complain and seek reimbursement for my damaged discs.
To make matters easier I pretty sure (based on no predisposed knowledge, basically guessing) that someone with sufficient expertise can quickly determine whether the damaged to my discs are based on console movement, or due to disc rotation.

As for people moving their console while it was running, clearly not considering the repercussions of their actions, well I can only feel sorry for them slightly for not reading the manual. Don't buy a cow if you don't know how to milk it.

As for the rubber pads, I will not comment at all as I have no information currently available to determine whether your claim is of accurate nature or not. Also they are irrelevant to me, as I was thinking more in the lines of manufacturing a decent dvd drive to begin with, not solving a faulty product with after market parts. I will however nevertheless take your claim for some worth and consider NOT installing these previously mentioned parts.
Xir 16th December 2008, 13:08 Quote
"The rubber pads don't solve anything with 100% certainty "
No...but other manufacturers can for the same price.

How many PC-drives regularly sratch disks? How many laptop drives (which do move about) scratch disks? They're hardly scarce

MS sadly just didn't care.
kylew 16th December 2008, 13:27 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by Xir
"The rubber pads don't solve anything with 100% certainty "
No...but other manufacturers can for the same price.

How many PC-drives regularly sratch disks? How many laptop drives (which do move about) scratch disks? They're hardly scarce

MS sadly just didn't care.

Thank you! How many people use laptops, on their laps, while there's a spinning disc in it? You move about, it's inevitable, same goes for portable DVD players and CD players.

As the a £5.5 million 'quest', that's pocket money to MS, especially considering the total cost of manufacturing, which you've obviously overlooked.

So, £5.5 million, that's what, 22 million xboxes made and sold. Xboxes cost at least £100 each to manufacture, so that's what, £2.2 Billion total to manufacture the current xboxes out there. 25p per xbox is at least a quarter of a percent of total manufacturing costs.

It might not stop it 100%, but stop being so ignorant to think that it's impossible for it to happen unless you're an idiot.

Before you think I'm defending myself, I'm not, I don't have an xbox, I have refused to buy one until they sort out the major issues they've been having with them.

This is just one manufacturing problem of a whole host of others.

I've never had a disc drive scratch any discs of mine in the 12+ years of me using discs. I must have gone through a few thousand discs and it's never happened once.

I generally don't move my consoles, but sometimes you might have to. I've had consoles that have overheated and started skipping, flipping it over, while still on sorted this issue out. Again, 0 ruined discs due to my drives.

Back to laptops, they generally get moved and bumped about quite a bit, so for a laptop to not mess up discs due to movement, but an xbox does, even while stationary, there's something wrong there.
flibble666 16th December 2008, 14:02 Quote
idouts all ways need warnings there one on boomerangs saying they come back on coffe cups saying there hot when heated companys will always have to deal with people that cant work out that if you move you 360 when the disc is spinning u'll scratch it if ms had added the 25p fix for this it wuld just have stoped the idouts shouting from the roof tops theres a warning on the 360 cd tray saying do not move console when playing a game yet people still seen to think its a good idear and a way to get a free replacment game for one they probly treated like crap and wont work then scrach it hoping for a freeby or even more

its the same as wii straps if u swig it to fast or hevy handedly of corse the friken strap will brake and probly fly throw your telly if people are to stupid to be careful with expensive products they deserve everything they get well appart from the people that win court cases
liratheal 16th December 2008, 14:07 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by asphinx
You would be concerned for my state of mind? May I ask why? And to answer the question you really didn't ask, no I'm not suing nor have I any intent of suing as of right now. As previously stated the discs that are scratched are still usable and therefore I see no reason to pursue well.. anything from Microsoft. If or more likely when any of my discs stop working then I will complain and seek reimbursement for my damaged discs.
To make matters easier I pretty sure (based on no predisposed knowledge, basically guessing) that someone with sufficient expertise can quickly determine whether the damaged to my discs are based on console movement, or due to disc rotation.

As for people moving their console while it was running, clearly not considering the repercussions of their actions, well I can only feel sorry for them slightly for not reading the manual. Don't buy a cow if you don't know how to milk it.

As for the rubber pads, I will not comment at all as I have no information currently available to determine whether your claim is of accurate nature or not. Also they are irrelevant to me, as I was thinking more in the lines of manufacturing a decent dvd drive to begin with, not solving a faulty product with after market parts. I will however nevertheless take your claim for some worth and consider NOT installing these previously mentioned parts.

I generally get concerned when anyone sues anyone for anything these days - What with so many pointless lawsuits, and when it comes to a scartched disk, it's a little worrying that people are willing to fork over piles of cash to get some new disks.

I'm sure an expert could tell you what and how the damage to your disks was caused, but I'd expect that to cost a bit to get done :D

I've spent huge amounts of my time in the 360 modding area, and while the rubber pads can be effective, they're not perfect. It's akin to the R/S6000 and its harddrives - They need to be formatted according to how they are arranged, horizontal or vertical, so as to determine the ideal position for the heads. Moving a spinning disk from one axis to another without giving it a chance to assess where it is, especially when the disk is not secured to the spindle (as is the case with the 360), or even slow the rotation down, is just asking for trouble.

To be honest, I'm amazed that none of these clowns have damaged the laser unit itself, as some of them seem to have done it more than once.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Xir
"The rubber pads don't solve anything with 100% certainty "
No...but other manufacturers can for the same price.

How many PC-drives regularly sratch disks? How many laptop drives (which do move about) scratch disks? They're hardly scarce

MS sadly just didn't care.

I think you'll find that there is a huge difference in the design of laptop drives and the 360 drive. As for PC drives, how often do you move your PC horizonal-vertical or visa-versa?

Laptop drives, portable DVD players, portable CD players etc, all lock the disc into position on the spindle - It's common place for those portable devices, which are intended for use on the move. The Xbox 360 was never designed for use on the move. That was never part of its spec, and never will be. It is designed to be stationary. And 99.9% of the time, the drive works absolutely perfectly when stationary.

Why build in a contingency for it to be able to deal with being mobile when the device is designed solely as a stationary device?

It'd be like giving a house, a normal two story house, a set of wheels.
Quote:
Originally Posted by kylew
Thank you! How many people use laptops, on their laps, while there's a spinning disc in it? You move about, it's inevitable, same goes for portable DVD players and CD players.

As the a £5.5 million 'quest', that's pocket money to MS, especially considering the total cost of manufacturing, which you've obviously overlooked.

So, £5.5 million, that's what, 22 million xboxes made and sold. Xboxes cost at least £100 each to manufacture, so that's what, £2.2 Billion total to manufacture the current xboxes out there. 25p per xbox is at least a quarter of a percent of total manufacturing costs.

It might not stop it 100%, but stop being so ignorant to think that it's impossible for it to happen unless you're an idiot.

Before you think I'm defending myself, I'm not, I don't have an xbox, I have refused to buy one until they sort out the major issues they've been having with them.

This is just one manufacturing problem of a whole host of others.

I've never had a disc drive scratch any discs of mine in the 12+ years of me using discs. I must have gone through a few thousand discs and it's never happened once.

I generally don't move my consoles, but sometimes you might have to. I've had consoles that have overheated and started skipping, flipping it over, while still on sorted this issue out. Again, 0 ruined discs due to my drives.

Back to laptops, they generally get moved and bumped about quite a bit, so for a laptop to not mess up discs due to movement, but an xbox does, even while stationary, there's something wrong there.

You say flipping the console over - I assume that you are refering to the Ps1 and 2 - Both of which had very similar drive designs to laptops - The CD/DVD is attached to the spindle. Same with the Gamecube - That can be run in any which direction you so desire, because the CD is locked to the spindle.

I think you'll find that more often than not the people who have scratched disks have moved the console while operational. That is the key word: While operational. I've taken two 360's, with games in the drive, to a friends house (Via a train), with no issue - Moving the console while it is operating is a sure fire way to scratch the disks - It happens with the PS3, too, even though the drive design is massively different, being a slot loader.

Just an FYI: I'm not trying to say that MS do care, just that they are not entirely to blame for this - User stupidity plays a HUGE role in this situation. Microsoft should not be expected to pay for accidents that you or your family caused around the home - They are not an insurance company. I don't care what accident occured to cause the scratched disk - It's your responsibility to ensure that accident couldn't have happened.

~55,000 people have complained, ~55,000 of ~22 million is not that many - I would suggest that is a good enough number to put it almost entirely down to user error. Had the number been around 11 million, then I would agree that there is a massive manufacturing fault. It's not, though, and thus, I am happy to stand by my belief that the whole thing is user stupidity.
scarrmrcc 16th December 2008, 14:51 Quote
hey, honda knows that if you hit a tree at 30kph you break your bumper, should they fix it for free?
no.

in the manual it says that you should not reposition the system while a disk in it. if it falls over, that is your fault. DON"T STAND IT UP IF IT MIGHT FALL OVER WHERE IT IS.

i can sum up the sillyness with one group of words:
McDonalds, old lady, coffee, hot lawsuit, stupid.
DougEdey 16th December 2008, 15:04 Quote
Actually the coffee was something ridiculous like 180-190F compared to 135-145F that other places serve coffee at, the woman suffered significant scalding burns to her body, the woman also had 20% of her damages removed because she was partly at fault.

McDonalds at the time had 700+ claims which proved they knew about it but had refused to do anything!
liratheal 16th December 2008, 15:22 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by scarrmrcc
i can sum up the sillyness with one group of words:
McDonalds, old lady, coffee, hot lawsuit, stupid.

I disagree with that comparison based on the fact that (bar the spillage), it was entirely at the hands of McDonalds, and them serving it far too hot (Who the hell can actually drink coffee a t 180 deg. F?). In this instance, it's users being stupid with the stability/positioning of their consoles.
Drexial 16th December 2008, 15:25 Quote
Is it just me, I don't know when they came out in the UK compared to the US. But I know the reports of disk scratching were coming out before the release. There is video of a best buy employee talking about how they needed to replace the demo disk 4 times. as far as I know the scratching issue was more an issue when first released.

As far as the report of it being 55,000 complaints. I feel its that not everyone is complaining or they are taking into account those that complained about the console and not the disks.

As another note. It wasn't this much of a problem on any previous disk based console.... so why should MS let it be a problem on this one.


Its like the Ford Pinto. I mean, it only exploded when hit in a certain way, there were only a few complaints about it, and the only reason it would happen is driver neglect. So why should Ford have been responsible?

OK so its a bit of a reach for a comparison. But how much bad publicity has this cost them compared to the 25p it would have cost per system to know that its not a problem? Even just the 55,000 complaints. lets say each one of those cost them $100 in revenue, that's already as much as it would have cost them to install that little part.

Its really hard to look at this and not ask "so it would have cost you 30 cents to make sure my $60 game didn't fail?"

then think "well, if they cut corners on this, what else did they cut corners on?"

I think most of us can easily think of at least one more thing they cut corners on.

But again, not disagreeing that it is more often then not user negligence.
Skiddywinks 16th December 2008, 15:36 Quote
Also with liratheal 100% here.
kylew 16th December 2008, 15:38 Quote
What I don't understand though, is that the PS1/2 GC and a so on all had spindles that locked the disc down. How expensive could it possibly be to implement that, and what's the reason behind not implementing it? It was pretty much a standard thing on console disc drives, why change it when it doesn't need to be and works perfectly fine?

I would have thought having the disc clip into the spindle is something that gets done without much thought, it certainly makes the disc a lot more stable and secure, who would complain about that?

I can't possibly think of any reason why they wouldn't use that method, other than it's just not been thought about. Cheapo £10 portable CD players manage to get it done, and as people are reporting, it's not an issue restricted to xboxes that have seen movement while spinning the disc, even more reason to implement it.

Same goes for the RROD, surely it would have been far cheaper to just get it right and spend a bit extra on designing and building it, than to extend the warranties of all xboxes and repair a load of them. As far as I can remember, MS reported a huge loss due to failed xboxes, extending of the warranties, and repairs.
liratheal 16th December 2008, 16:06 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by Drexial
Is it just me, I don't know when they came out in the UK compared to the US. But I know the reports of disk scratching were coming out before the release. There is video of a best buy employee talking about how they needed to replace the demo disk 4 times. as far as I know the scratching issue was more an issue when first released.

As far as the report of it being 55,000 complaints. I feel its that not everyone is complaining or they are taking into account those that complained about the console and not the disks.

As another note. It wasn't this much of a problem on any previous disk based console.... so why should MS let it be a problem on this one.

Its like the Ford Pinto. I mean, it only exploded when hit in a certain way, there were only a few complaints about it, and the only reason it would happen is driver neglect. So why should Ford have been responsible?

OK so its a bit of a reach for a comparison. But how much bad publicity has this cost them compared to the 25p it would have cost per system to know that its not a problem? Even just the 55,000 complaints. lets say each one of those cost them $100 in revenue, that's already as much as it would have cost them to install that little part.

Its really hard to look at this and not ask "so it would have cost you 30 cents to make sure my $60 game didn't fail?"

then think "well, if they cut corners on this, what else did they cut corners on?"

I think most of us can easily think of at least one more thing they cut corners on.

But again, not disagreeing that it is more often then not user negligence.

I don't know enough about the Ford thing to effectively discuss it, so forgive me for not responding to that.

I don't recall it being an issue on most previous disk based consoles because as far as I can remember, most of them were 'open the lid, snap the disk onto the spindle, close the lid' affairs. I didn't play all disk based systems, so I could be entirely wrong.

When it comes to the cost, I was under the impression that the console has always been sold at a loss to the company - I believe it's only Nintendo who's ever sold a console at a profit - so 5.5 million (Bear in mind that's pounds, when this was all being decided on, it would have been closer to 10 million in dollars, which might not sound like a lot when compared to Microsoft's billions of dollars in electronics and software, each business arm has to account for its profit/loss, and shaving ten million off the loss account is a very, very attractive prospect in terms of having less to answer for. I'm not saying that it does right by the customer, but then, who does these days?) is a significant amount.

However, it had clearly been tested, as it has been in the manual since the very begining of the consoles sales run. The drive itself has been changed a number of times in the 360's life (I think there are something like five different drives, or have been five different drives, in the 360's around the world), without any reduction in noise - and I fully believe that a good portion of this has been to try and resolve the disk scratching (changing supplier of DVD drive is going to cost less). Having the rubber strips inserted would have meant an additional step in the assembly line - Since the 360 has used pretty much all external DVD drives (Big players being Samsung, Phillips, Thompson and Hitachi), it would cost them more to have this additional stage in what is, presumably, anotherwise normal production line. I expect there are hidden costs that this 25 pence does not cover.

Especially when you consider that most of these things are put together by machines - Even with human element - There is massive room for error in terms of where the pads are stuck, how well they are stuck, how the heat inside the console affects the glue on the pads, whether they stay in the right place after 2-3 years of use, given that drives (Being the gaping maw in consoles that they usually are) attract dirt, dust, and abuse.

Whether they cut a corner or not - They did take the precaution of telling people not to move the console when it was operational - Which many people, apparently, ignored. Which puts the blame entirely at the users door, not Microsofts.
Quote:
Originally Posted by kylew
What I don't understand though, is that the PS1/2 GC and a so on all had spindles that locked the disc down. How expensive could it possibly be to implement that, and what's the reason behind not implementing it? It was pretty much a standard thing on console disc drives, why change it when it doesn't need to be and works perfectly fine?

I would have thought having the disc clip into the spindle is something that gets done without much thought, it certainly makes the disc a lot more stable and secure, who would complain about that?

I can't possibly think of any reason why they wouldn't use that method, other than it's just not been thought about. Cheapo £10 portable CD players manage to get it done, and as people are reporting, it's not an issue restricted to xboxes that have seen movement while spinning the disc, even more reason to implement it.

Same goes for the RROD, surely it would have been far cheaper to just get it right and spend a bit extra on designing and building it, than to extend the warranties of all xboxes and repair a load of them. As far as I can remember, MS reported a huge loss due to failed xboxes, extending of the warranties, and repairs.

One or two very simple reasons: Slot loaders can be unreliable, not saying they all are, but they can be. To use the same method as the Ps1 and GC the drive would need to be a top opening drive. It wouldn't have worked with the design of the 360.

The RROD thing is, again, an entirely different situation - That is entirely Microsofts fault, unless the user crams everything into a corner with no airflow. While that is common, it's not the main cause.
1ad7 16th December 2008, 17:14 Quote
Im in the "disc" industry I guess :P I work at blockbuster and we have more 360 games destroyed then any other system, and likely more than all the others combined (ps2, wii) ps3 disc dont really compare due to the different material which is really scatch resistant. Also from what I can tell they scratch disk regardless of you moving the console, obviously more if you do.
liratheal 16th December 2008, 17:17 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by 1ad7
Im in the "disc" industry I guess :P I work at blockbuster and we have more 360 games destroyed then any other system, and likely more than all the others combined (ps2, wii) ps3 disc dont really compare due to the different material which is really scatch resistant. Also from what I can tell they scratch disk regardless of you moving the console, obviously more if you do.

Another issue you're probably aware of, is that most people take little to no care of rentals. Because it's not theirs, they don't give a rats about it.
themax 16th December 2008, 17:26 Quote
My Xbox 360 has been my only console to scratch discs the way it does. I am sure Microsoft knew about it. And it doesn't suprise me that they didn't care. It's easy to pass it off on user error. I've heard people try and downplay the RRoD the same way as user error. Ever have your console knocked over by a little cousin? And not just that. The Xbox 360 is damn sensitive period. I shouldn't have to turn the thing off, just to plug in a peripheral (memory card, USB Wifi, controller) for fear of damaging a disc if the console shifts ever so slightly. We've gone from people turning PS2's upside down with the disc spinning (and no damage) to simply moving the console back a foot or two engraving your disc with a tatoo.
liratheal 16th December 2008, 17:45 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by themax
My Xbox 360 has been my only console to scratch discs the way it does. I am sure Microsoft knew about it. And it doesn't suprise me that they didn't care. It's easy to pass it off on user error. I've heard people try and downplay the RRoD the same way as user error. Ever have your console knocked over by a little cousin? And not just that. The Xbox 360 is damn sensitive period. I shouldn't have to turn the thing off, just to plug in a peripheral (memory card, USB Wifi, controller) for fear of damaging a disc if the console shifts ever so slightly. We've gone from people turning PS2's upside down with the disc spinning (and no damage) to simply moving the console back a foot or two engraving your disc with a tatoo.

I can honestly say I've never moved my console, or even wobbled it, when I've plugged in a memory card, a usb device, or even a hard drive.

Moving the console back a foot or two when it's stood up is going to be some task to acomplish, especially if it's on a decent ground, its rubber feet grip well. And if you pick it up, well, that's that.

I agree that this is a step backwards from the PS1/PS2 days, but frankly, moving your console when it's on is daft by any standards.
TreeDude 16th December 2008, 18:35 Quote
I didn't get my 360 till just a few months ago. So I have not had any disc scratching issues (knock on wood). But it seems to me that this is definitely past the point of being user error. Even if it is a user moving the console while it is on that causes the issue to start, the drive should be tougher than that. I have moved many consoles while on or with a disc in the tray and had no issue. I have been extra careful with my 360 though after reading about this stuff.
Drexial 16th December 2008, 19:26 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by liratheal


I don't know enough about the Ford thing to effectively discuss it, so forgive me for not responding to that.

I don't recall it being an issue on most previous disk based consoles because as far as I can remember, most of them were 'open the lid, snap the disk onto the spindle, close the lid' affairs. I didn't play all disk based systems, so I could be entirely wrong.

When it comes to the cost, I was under the impression that the console has always been sold at a loss to the company - I believe it's only Nintendo who's ever sold a console at a profit - so 5.5 million (Bear in mind that's pounds, when this was all being decided on, it would have been closer to 10 million in dollars, which might not sound like a lot when compared to Microsoft's billions of dollars in electronics and software, each business arm has to account for its profit/loss, and shaving ten million off the loss account is a very, very attractive prospect in terms of having less to answer for. I'm not saying that it does right by the customer, but then, who does these days?) is a significant amount.

However, it had clearly been tested, as it has been in the manual since the very begining of the consoles sales run. The drive itself has been changed a number of times in the 360's life (I think there are something like five different drives, or have been five different drives, in the 360's around the world), without any reduction in noise - and I fully believe that a good portion of this has been to try and resolve the disk scratching (changing supplier of DVD drive is going to cost less). Having the rubber strips inserted would have meant an additional step in the assembly line - Since the 360 has used pretty much all external DVD drives (Big players being Samsung, Phillips, Thompson and Hitachi), it would cost them more to have this additional stage in what is, presumably, anotherwise normal production line. I expect there are hidden costs that this 25 pence does not cover.

Especially when you consider that most of these things are put together by machines - Even with human element - There is massive room for error in terms of where the pads are stuck, how well they are stuck, how the heat inside the console affects the glue on the pads, whether they stay in the right place after 2-3 years of use, given that drives (Being the gaping maw in consoles that they usually are) attract dirt, dust, and abuse.

Whether they cut a corner or not - They did take the precaution of telling people not to move the console when it was operational - Which many people, apparently, ignored. Which puts the blame entirely at the users door, not Microsofts.

Both the original PS2 and Xbox were both tray load drive that had no problems such as this. Yes a lot of previous systems had top loads, Sega saturn, PSx, PS2 refresh, Gamecube, Dreamcast. These systems are a bit easier to deal with problems like this. But I mean I believe all the Xbox had as many standard computer drives had, was a little spring mounted to a metal disk that the DVD was pressed against when inserted. and that was enough to keep it from hitting the laser assembly, fairly standard equipment. I haven't torn apart a 360 drive to know what the difference could be that this would be a problem. Given that the problem has been between 3 manufactures and 3 models... I don't understand how this have been such an issue. But as I said, it doesn't seem to be as bad as it was for the first round of systems. Those seemed to be scratching regardless of being moved. Now I would say that the cause in most any case would be negligence.
samkiller42 16th December 2008, 20:33 Quote
With liratheal on this, my 360 has been perfect to me, no damaged disks or anything, which is a bonus. I've moved it before with a disk in the drive, by mistake, but it was still in a ruck sack that was on my back as i ran home, so, if you look after it, it will be fine.

Sam
lesdmark 16th December 2008, 21:45 Quote
I have had a 360 for years now and the only time a disc got scratched was when the console orientation was changed while it was on. As far as the Xbox and PS2 go their drives do not operate at the extremely high speeds that the 360's drive does if you buy a high speed drive for your pc and change the orientation while it is operating at high speed it will scratch the disc.
pumpman 16th December 2008, 22:12 Quote
I was playing my Xbox 360 in the bath the other night and got some Mr Matey bubbles on it and it scratched my discs , my letter of complaint is in the post as we speak
talladega 16th December 2008, 22:12 Quote
It doesn't matter whether they wrote in the manual not to move the console. They knew about the problem and could have prevented it at hardly any cost but were too irresponsible to do it.


Just like they could have prevented the RROD which they knew was a problem but again didn't fix it before releasing the console and only now 3 years after being released is it 'supposedly' fixed.

It's is just M$ being irresponsible and dishonest like always.
Otto69 16th December 2008, 22:53 Quote
Look, there's a video out there I've seen, on youtube probably, and it shows a parents investigation into this. The optical drive used in the Xbox was almost identical to ones used elsewhere. But the ones elsewhere, which cannot damage a disk, have 4 little pads in the corners that basically contact the disk before the head does, preventing damage. The xbox unit does NOT have those 4 little stick on pads inside. Now consider that the xbox is a mobile unit and that it's advertised it will work on end or on flat, is it really that much of a reach to figure someone might move it from horizontal to vertical while forgetting there was a disk in it?

Microsoft is at fault here. Definately. The product is defective.
Otto69 16th December 2008, 22:58 Quote
Investigative report on the problem from Dutch TV: see for yourself

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rlQYkaXv8RU
kenco_uk 16th December 2008, 23:11 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by lesdmark
I have had a 360 for years now and the only time a disc got scratched was when the console orientation was changed while it was on. As far as the Xbox and PS2 go their drives do not operate at the extremely high speeds that the 360's drive does if you buy a high speed drive for your pc and change the orientation while it is operating at high speed it will scratch the disc.

That's another thing. Whilst a 52x cd-rom for the pc is a fairly noticeable noise, nothing is noisier than an xbox360 drive reading the disc like billy-o. Why is it so bloody noisy? I can understand it's to keep loading times to a minimum, but crikey.. it really is loud.

As for the scratching of discs - I'm with liratheal. I certainly wouldn't let anyone near it without reading the manual, considering the cost of it.
ethanator 17th December 2008, 02:32 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by pumpman
I was playing my Xbox 360 in the bath the other night and got some Mr Matey bubbles on it and it scratched my discs , my letter of complaint is in the post as we speak

hahaha

loser :D
Noob4ever 17th December 2008, 09:44 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by Drexial
Is it just me, I don't know when they came out in the UK compared to the US. But I know the reports of disk scratching were coming out before the release. There is video of a best buy employee talking about how they needed to replace the demo disk 4 times. as far as I know the scratching issue was more an issue when first released.

As far as the report of it being 55,000 complaints. I feel its that not everyone is complaining or they are taking into account those that complained about the console and not the disks.

As another note. It wasn't this much of a problem on any previous disk based console.... so why should MS let it be a problem on this one.


Its like the Ford Pinto. I mean, it only exploded when hit in a certain way, there were only a few complaints about it, and the only reason it would happen is driver neglect. So why should Ford have been responsible?

OK so its a bit of a reach for a comparison. But how much bad publicity has this cost them compared to the 25p it would have cost per system to know that its not a problem? Even just the 55,000 complaints. lets say each one of those cost them $100 in revenue, that's already as much as it would have cost them to install that little part.

Its really hard to look at this and not ask "so it would have cost you 30 cents to make sure my $60 game didn't fail?"

then think "well, if they cut corners on this, what else did they cut corners on?"

I think most of us can easily think of at least one more thing they cut corners on.

But again, not disagreeing that it is more often then not user negligence.

Well My two cents worth is basically, If you dont read the manual and follow the directions and your stuff gets screwed up, its your own damn problem........ As for comparing the problem to the Pinto, well the Original Mustangs had that problem as well, It wasnt so much design flaw so much as design being ahead of technological advancements....... IE they were of a sub frame construction In order to make it a sub compact vehicle...... and frame technology wasnt upto the standards...... I mean basic design concepts arent that different than more modern sub frames...... just better metals and techniques going into the construction........ IE they just crumpled too much in the arse and hit the fuel tank...... also not comparing the fact that they were fairly small for their era

So Basically your comparing American Technological vs Design advancements when we were supposed to be talking about stupid people too lazy to read a manual......... If it saves MS 5.5m pounds then the more power to em, they did after all tell people not to move consoles, thats idiot owners freaking problem....... I've had my 360 for a few years, moved several times etc etc...... No dead discs.... imagine that
DXR_13KE 17th December 2008, 10:54 Quote
its your fault of dieing in an accident, not the car makers fault for not including seat belts and other safety features, they saved lots of cash with that move, you should read the manual were it states that you should never go over a certain speed limit and not go on certain roads.

IMHO this is not about money saving, its about client maintaining and expanding (thus making money), your clients will not be your clients for long if the console has the ability to randomly destroy disks (even if it is your fault in some cases), do the RROD thing, overheat and be loud.

for each person that hears that the console eats disks, thus causing them not to buy the console, you loose 1 console sale + all the game premiums, lets see... 25p per console and a console costing 162£ (i know they don't get any money from console sales, but i am also not considering game sales that would increase this value largely), that is about 648 modifications, multiplying this by the amount of people that did not buy the console because of this, then you have a large number of consoles that could be running better.

every little touch, that makes the console better for everyday use, is a good thing in therms of gaining clients, if the 360 had a QUIET small form factor factor slot loading drive, larger and more efficient cooling systems, more standard hard drive, etc.. all small things that could be done for a small price premium, then your client base should go up and be maintained on the next version of the xbox.
Drexial 17th December 2008, 14:55 Quote
I did say that it was a bit of a reach for the pinto comparison. It was more this bit that I was using to compare to this.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wikipedia
Ford was aware of this design flaw but allegedly refused to pay what was characterized as the minimal expense of a redesign. Instead, it was argued, Ford decided it would be cheaper to pay off possible lawsuits for resulting deaths. Mother Jones magazine obtained the cost-benefit analysis that it said Ford had used to compare the cost of an $11 ($57 today, allowing for inflation) repair against the cost of paying off potential law suits, in what became known as the Ford Pinto memo.[4][5]

Where they knew of the problem and it was cheep to fix. But they ultimately decided it was cheaper to deal with the backlash without the fix.
liratheal 17th December 2008, 15:50 Quote
I'd like to take a thompson phillips, samsung, and hitachi PC drive to bits (Preferably those that should be a similar spec to the Xbox drive) and have a look for these rubber pads. I lack the funds, time, and drives to do this, though.

I know they aren't on my Plextor, and I know that, if moved from horizontal to vertical or visa-versa, will scratch a disk - I tested it (I have it external).

I also believe that they would have had more problems with the pads shifting over time due to glue melting, hell, even pads coming off, than they would have without them. There are a lot of costs that people are not considering when they see the 25p - They assume that is all it is. It isn't. The rubber pads may cost that, on their own, but that's just the pads. There's assembly - If the drive manufacturers used don't already do that, that's a custom production line needed - Which is a shitton of money (At least, in the flooring industry it is) to the company requesting the work. Then there's the testing - They'd have to test the console in hundreds of different weather and temperature/humidity settings to ensure that the glue doesn't fail, and thus cause massive damage to the drive (And thus more complaints/repair costs), and test it with a disk spinning for the average life of the drive to ensure that doesn't pull the pads off. The obligatory moving the console test, to see how much damage is caused to the disk or the drive itself.

CD/DVD drives in PC's are much easier to replace than a consoles drives, so if a drive does have the pads, then it's not such a pain in the ass to replace.

Monitarily, it doesn't make sense. Logically, it wouldn't make sense. Introduce something that could cause more problems than it solves. If we round the 55k to 100k, to cover anyone not involved with the lawsuit, that's still not a massive number, one I would still happily put down to user error, and while some of those might be legitimate complaints, there's still 21.9 million users who are not in need of these pads. That's 21.9 million that could well have issues if the pads were installed.

I'd rather, as a business, deal with a few thousand than a few million.

However. I do not believe, even slightly, that Microsoft are at fault here, bar the initial systems that scratched disks without intervention from the user, and that it is simply the user.

As for the Ford comparison, DXR_13K, no one here is dying because of a few thousand scratched disks. Also, there are speeds you don't go over on roads - It's called a speed limit, you know, as stated by law.. There are also roads that a lot of vehicless won't be suitable for.

Microsoft made a gamble, and technically, they won. 22 million sales is a win in my book. Unless 22 million people sent their consoles back - Which they haven't. Sure it could have been done better, but it is only their second major console, and it sells well, works for the huge majority, and IMO is not a bad console, in general.
DXR_13KE 17th December 2008, 21:15 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by liratheal
As for the Ford comparison, DXR_13K, no one here is dying because of a few thousand scratched disks. Also, there are speeds you don't go over on roads - It's called a speed limit, you know, as stated by law.. There are also roads that a lot of vehicless won't be suitable for.

Microsoft made a gamble, and technically, they won. 22 million sales is a win in my book. Unless 22 million people sent their consoles back - Which they haven't. Sure it could have been done better, but it is only their second major console, and it sells well, works for the huge majority, and IMO is not a bad console, in general.

IIRC i did not talk about Ford.

substitute "die" with "damaged property" on my above statement.

your local road may allow a max speed of 50Km/h, but imagine that you have an accident that is caused by some defect in the car and you were going at about 30Km/h, the company says to you:

"we knew it had a problem that would cause that, so we manufactured it anyway and told you nothing, we are not the causers of your accident, you were an idiot to drive at that speed"


btw, what was the percentage of failed xbox360 that had to go back and get fixed? (notice that MS has to fix each one of these and in the process loose some money) and how much of them are noisy? how much of them randomly scratch disks?

considering the previous answers do you consider that most of the clients (remove the fanboys) that bought the damn thing are happy?

i am here debating in the spirit of debate, i agree that people should not move the damn thing when it is working, but i also agree that some key aspects of the console could be hugely improved before it went into production...
perplekks45 17th December 2008, 21:28 Quote
RROD? That is the only major flaw I can think of.

Yes, it's noisy... update has fixed that.
Yes, it scratches discs... how many people have that problem? Not too many I'd say. UNLESS you're a complete idiot and move the console while it's running -> your own bloody fault!

I'd say most people can be happy with their 360.
And by the way: There's no proof that putting in those pads would've 100% solved the problem, is there? (see liratheal's comment on his external Plextor drive)
liratheal 18th December 2008, 10:24 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by DXR_13KE
IIRC i did not talk about Ford.

substitute "die" with "damaged property" on my above statement.

your local road may allow a max speed of 50Km/h, but imagine that you have an accident that is caused by some defect in the car and you were going at about 30Km/h, the company says to you:

"we knew it had a problem that would cause that, so we manufactured it anyway and told you nothing, we are not the causers of your accident, you were an idiot to drive at that speed"


btw, what was the percentage of failed xbox360 that had to go back and get fixed? (notice that MS has to fix each one of these and in the process loose some money) and how much of them are noisy? how much of them randomly scratch disks?

considering the previous answers do you consider that most of the clients (remove the fanboys) that bought the damn thing are happy?

i am here debating in the spirit of debate, i agree that people should not move the damn thing when it is working, but i also agree that some key aspects of the console could be hugely improved before it went into production...

Sorry - Must be confusing usernames. Or manufacturers. One of the two.

The fixed failures, IE, RROD failures, are totally unrelated to the scratched disks, and therefore, it's not a vaild comparison/question.

All 360's are noisy to a degree - But personally, and no I'm not deaf, I have never noticed it when I game - I'm listening to the game, or whatever I happen to be watching on the PC at the time. It has also given you the option to install the game now - Eliminating the large majority of the noise. That should have been done from the start, admittedly, but hey. No console is perfect.

I would say very few scratch disks (Whether through user error (The large majority I expect), or system error - Based on the fact that this lawsuit is only 55,000 people, and had this been any bigger in terms of numbers of people that get scratched disks, it wouldn't be only 55,000.

I would say that yes, most Xbox 360 users are happy. The fanboys not included in that theory.
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