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Piracy 'sales' charts revealed

Piracy 'sales' charts revealed

Not all pirates are loveable scamps like Guybrush. Some of them make Infinity Ward cry.

If you've ever wanted to know just how well games are 'selling' on the pirate market, then now is your chance. Indie website RPS has done a little investigation to reveal a little snapshot of the state of piracy.

The snapshot was gathered by heading to torrent site Mininova and working out which the most popular games are and monitoring the number of leechers on each for a single day. So; we present the top ten pirated games, along with figures, for a single day from a single site.
  • Assassin’s Creed - 25734
  • Frontlines: Fuel of War - 12688
  • Call of Duty 4: Modern Warfare - 8792
  • Dark Messiah of Might and Magic - 8402
  • Lost: Via Domus - 5883
  • Turning Point: Fall of Liberty - 5183
  • Sims 2 - 4026
  • The Club - 3672
  • Bioshock - 3489
  • The Witcher - 3121
So, some things to bear in mind: firstly, that the torrent of Assassin's Creed is of a preview version of the game that is incomplete and won't let you enter Jerusalem. Secondly, again we have to stress that this is from one site for a single day. That's mind-blowing even if you follow the admittedly conservative estimates of RPS writer Kieron Gillen:

"Call of Duty 4 has been on sale for 113 days, assuming day zero piracy. A seven gig torrent, assuming a 100k download speed, takes just under a day to download. Assuming that the rate of downloads now is constant across those whole three and a bit months - which is incredibly conservative, of course, as it’d have been much higher upon release - that means 993496 copies will have been illegally downloaded via Mininova alone. Which is the sort of number that makes Infinity Ward sad."

Discussions about game piracy have been raging on the forums for a while now, and though everyone agrees that not every torrent downloaded is equal to a sale lost, even if just a tenth of those downloads were turned into real sales then it would massively help the industry. Or would it? Throw your thoughts in with the continuing discussion.

252 Comments

Discuss in the forums Reply
fwalm 2nd March 2008, 18:52 Quote
In truth I have never pirated computer games. Have seriously thought about it, but never have.
Hamish 2nd March 2008, 18:57 Quote
i read this the other day and i'd like to know where his numbers came from on piracy
and also how piracy of say hl2 or orange box compared to the numbers for cod4 and bioshock he quoted

i voted "Yes, but I often buy the game too. Really."
dom_ 2nd March 2008, 19:12 Quote
Never have, but i used to pirate movies and music heavily. Until i grew up.
DaveVader 2nd March 2008, 19:16 Quote
I have a couple of times, and will if the game looks good but not good enough to warrant £30 of my heard earned pounds. I hate demos, if I want to get the feel for a game I want to play the game, not some half arsed version. So basically, this is me: "Yes, but I often buy the game too. Really."
I'm quite materialistic when it comes to having a game, I like having a case, manual, disc etc. a reason as to why I wont buy off Steam.
BlueTrin 2nd March 2008, 19:39 Quote
It happens to me to get a game not by buying it but really if it is only the kind of game I will never buy and trust me, I really buy ALOT of games, I must buy half of the game which comes out on the shelves of major retailers, including all FPS and RTS. I almost always buy a game instead of pirating if it is available on direct2drive or steam ...
DarkLord7854 2nd March 2008, 19:45 Quote
I'll download the latest game, play it, if I like it, I'll delete the game and ISO and go buy it, if I don't like it, I delete the game and ISO and make room for more entertaining games :)

I wouldn't download if developers released good demos more often
UncertainGod 2nd March 2008, 19:53 Quote
I download games occasionally, but normally if it was something that I hadn't heard of or was unsure about.

However I am a complete whore when it comes to grabbing movies and tv shows.
Major 2nd March 2008, 19:58 Quote
Truth is, I download games which I wouldn't buy in the first place. :)
Bindibadgi 2nd March 2008, 19:59 Quote
I completely agree with him on the "people are idiots" point and completely understand why people make games for locked down systems like consoles, more so now that they can be updated!

There is a massive difference between a bit-tech gamer and any other gamer - most people out there have no clue what so ever. They should be left to consoles and never let near a PC because their ignorance is astounding. Just go to any i-event or other LAN to see what I mean.

Truth is, I only don't pirate to see what it's like now because I can borrow it from Joe. If I do like it I will buy it - Stalker, Half Life 2, Zelda etc. Most of the games I've tried are just crap and I'd never ever spend £40 on it - they get dropped within two minutes.

I borrowed Crysis from work, but that was a plastic piece of arse. I will also borrow CoD4 in time to see what it plays like, given time. I haven't pirated anything since before joining bit - everything at work is legit - I've just fallen into wanting stuff to just work.
Cthippo 2nd March 2008, 20:04 Quote
Isn't posting the same quote three times in three different threads a violation of the forum rules? :|

Closest I've ever come was I borrowed a friend's steam acccount and downloaded HL2 (with his permission, he only plays online FPS) played about half of itand then went out and bought it myself. Other than that, I buy the games i want to play, but I have so little time or money these days that it's maybe one game a year. I see STALKER is down to $20 in the stores, so I may pick that up soon. It will be the first game I've bought since HL2E1.
Ryu_ookami 2nd March 2008, 20:24 Quote
Seems like he believes the entire world was out to make the company shut down and that every one was against him

1. Piracy === everyone in sweden and norway (if you believe the news and the riaa)

2. Hardware -- (yep ATI etc were out to get him)

3. reviewers - (see I know it had to be bit techs fault some where its all the bit tech reviewers fault)

4. Audience -- (nope i was wrong its everyone elses fault)

theres a word for thinking like this its called Paranoia.
speedfreek 2nd March 2008, 20:37 Quote
If you get burned enough when you buy a game your going to want to go out and try the game before you buy. If a company has a reputation of making good games then people are more likely to just buy it, Orange Box comes to mind as I liked everything in the series so far and felt no risk buying the next one in the series. Anything else I tend to be wary about and want to get a better look than just a demo.
DougEdey 2nd March 2008, 20:50 Quote
I used to untill I turned 16~, I finally had an income and I could afford to buy games, turned out that when I was earning a wage I could afford to keep a very good standard of living.

I now say to everyone not to pirate because I know how much effort goes in to games.
Amon 2nd March 2008, 20:56 Quote
Yes. Now I don't anymore. And I buy the game if it was fun.
chrisb2e9 2nd March 2008, 21:59 Quote
I understand why he hates stupid people and intergrated hardware. I remember when sims 2 came out. I was on the forum for the game constantly telling people that their 3 year old pc with intergrated video would not run the game no matter what they do. and it was always the games fault to them. even thought they wanted a game that was better than sims 1.
Veles 2nd March 2008, 22:08 Quote
I used to until I got some money in the bank and I could actually afford games.

I'll pirate a game if
A) You can't get it in the shops anymore
B) I want to know if it's a waste of money or not

Although now I do little of B, last time I remember doing that was for STALKER, after a few hours playing I decided it was good, but due to my obsession with restarting RPGesque games I got frustrated, might pick that up now it's cheaper. Now I've had my ups and downs with awful games and awesome games, I can usually tell if I'll enjoy a game from previews and the like. I haven't bought many duds in the last year or so.

The only games I kind of regret buying that I've bought in the last 6 months or so is probably the club and eternal sonata. I've barely played them, but I did pick them up very cheap.

I picked "Yes, but I often buy the game too. Really." BTW
yodasarmpit 2nd March 2008, 23:14 Quote
Have I pirated games, well yes.
But you know what, those I liked I went out and bought, those I didn't got deleted.

There are times I glad I did as it saved wasting money on a crap game, on the other hand there are games I might not have considered but bought them after trying them out first.
Jamie 2nd March 2008, 23:21 Quote
I think my credit card bill speaks for itself.
The_Beast 2nd March 2008, 23:26 Quote
My internet is too slow to pirate games :(
CardJoe 2nd March 2008, 23:43 Quote
I voted for I used too. I used to pirate games all the time, but once I discovered the second hand market out there there was really no need. Now, because of my job, I don't really have to buy new games. I still do download some games - but only abandonware and even then I'd prefer a second hand copy. I went through a stage of DS pirating too - but not anymore.

The last major game I kind of stole was Half-Life 2 and that was a special case. At uni we had very poor internet and you needed it to run the game. Only one pc in the house could get online and that was in Bauuls room, so I used his account to play the game. Even then, when we moved out at the end of the year and I could get online properly I still bought the game to play it again.

Hell, even some new games (Like Audiosurf) that I could get review copies of for free I still buy if I really want them. Review copies in the office often aren't available to nab afterwards because Tim needs them for testing something or because we keep them in the office for relaxation at the end of the day.

And yeah, three times for that quote was excessive, but relevant in the previous conversations and worthy of seperate discussion here I feel.
oasked 3rd March 2008, 00:15 Quote
I notice a general trend here:

1. Nobody (apart from a small minority) bother pirating console games (in the UK/USA at least).

2. The older you are (and hence the more money you have [and less time]), the less you pirate games.

I have downloaded a few games in the past, but apart from one game (which I really should have bought), I wouldn't have bought any of them. I've been buying quite a lot of legit software recently, including all my MS stuff which is an achievement. :p
Krikkit 3rd March 2008, 00:19 Quote
It sounds like excuse-mongering, but I'll only pirate something if I know I'd never buy it.

Otherwise I'll wait and see. Crysis for example, I haven't bought (lack of cash), nor pirated yet (because I'll definately buy it one day). It's a poor excuse, and not really much of a veil for my conscience, but there we are. :p
willowthewhite 3rd March 2008, 00:45 Quote
I have never pirated a PC game. A lot of people seem to try before buying but I take the attitude that if the game has no demo available it's likely to be a worthless pile of c**p.
alastor 3rd March 2008, 00:59 Quote
Pretty sure I've never pirated a new game, anything that I have downloaded is ancient and usually unavailable; Master System ROMs and the like. Not sure which category that puts me in though.
BlueTrin 3rd March 2008, 01:10 Quote
When you look at the latest figures Nvidia released about the number of high-end cards sold, and the number of games sold this year, you have to admit that either these people buy an expensive card without playing, either they pirate games. It is unlikely that you will want a geforce 8600 or more if you do not plan to buy games, unless you went buying a computer which came with this card (actually that may be possible, when you look at the configurations of expensive PCs from major PC builders).
iwog 3rd March 2008, 01:24 Quote
Last game for the PC i pirated was Sims 2 but decided that i really shouldn't waste my time with it as it was no more fun then Sims (which i bought) so that left my system within a week. Before that it was SupCom which i had the demo to but decided i wanted a bit more. It was so good i went out and bought the Cybren special edition of play.com as i felt bad. Am currently "getting" the Lost game but from the general chatter on teh interwebs i'll be surprised if the game makes it to the end of march on my PC (or even one play)

As i've said before i also have the N64 goodset, some Dreamcast games and a couple of megadrive and SNES sets which i acquired about this time last year. The chipped xbox in the living room is slowly acquiring a decent back catalogue of xbox games as well. I can honestly say i have no pirated games which you can buy 1st hand in their original format that i play on a regular basis. But then again after my first year of uni i think i've become very ambivalent towards piracy.
BlueTrin 3rd March 2008, 01:42 Quote
I think it would help if they revised their business model, like Stardock, targeting older gamers and providing updates. In my opinion most of the people who buy games would agree on paying smaller prices for a model ala steam or direct2drive.

After reading this, I decided to buy Hellgate London but it is not available to be bought on both direct 2 drive (UK website) and steam. If they make it so updates are only available via steam or another prorgam, it would probably help alot to sell games.

Honestly look at this page:

http://www.direct2drive.co.uk/buy-pc-games-download

When you see what are the games highlighted, it makes me sad ...

EDIT: I just saw that it is available via the EA app, I really hate this app, it is a real memory hog ...
Firehed 3rd March 2008, 02:16 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by DougEdey
I used to untill I turned 16~, I finally had an income and I could afford to buy games, turned out that when I was earning a wage I could afford to keep a very good standard of living.

I now say to everyone not to pirate because I know how much effort goes in to games.
I'm generally the same way - with all software (everything I run except for Photoshop is legit, and as soon as I start using that in a manner where I get money from it, I'll pay). Truth be told it not much has interested me lately so it doesn't really matter. I often will DL a game to try it out if there's not a demo available, and I'll buy it if I like what I'm playing. If not, I've got better things to do with my hard drive. However, I'll often continue to use the cracked version or whatever as I HAVE been burned by copy protection on legit copies before. I never pirate console games, but a) there are almost always demos available, b) I can't be bothered to chip my console, especially as that's not free and rather defeats the purpose and c) $23/month for two games out at a time through Gamefly is more than fair - especially compared to $60 a game.
Veles 3rd March 2008, 03:33 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by CardJoe
but once I discovered the second hand market out there there was really no need.

It's debatable whether that's any better than pirating, with a second hand sale, the developers get nothing, in their eyes you may as well have pirated it.
supermonkey 3rd March 2008, 04:13 Quote
I've pirated a couple games in my lifetime, but I now own every game I play. If a game doesn't offer a demo, I assume it's not worth my time; I'll be damned if I'm going to spend $40-50 to find out that it's a bad game. I've never pirated a movie, but I have downloaded my share of mp3s.

On the non-game side of things, I've been making an effort over the last couple years to go totally legit. As of right now, thanks to some pretty quality open source applications, I'm happy to report that everything running on my computer is legitimate. :)

Edit:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Veles
It's debatable whether that's any better than pirating, with a second hand sale, the developers get nothing, in their eyes you may as well have pirated it.
Following that logic, nothing should ever be sold second hand. Buy a shirt at a thrift store and you just robbed a department store and a designer of a sale. There is a difference between piracy and buying second hand. For one, assuming the seller didn't make any copies and is still playing the game, the license has been transferred to you.

-monkey
mikeuk2004 3rd March 2008, 04:50 Quote
Why does everyone ignore the second hand market and only focus on pirating. Yes sales are lost through pirating but what about second hand sales? These games companies get nothing at all from second hand sales. Second hand sales are getting bigger and I see more second hand games on sale in game shops than new titles.

The games companies that think they only sold 1 million copies, probably had 3 million people play their game because the orignal purchasers sold it on and thats 2 miillions sales they lost out on.
notatoad 3rd March 2008, 04:59 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by mikeuk2004
Why does everyone ignore the second hand market and only focus on pirating?

because piracy is illegal?
mikeuk2004 3rd March 2008, 05:04 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by supertoad
because piracy is illegal?

But its not the only reason for lack of sales
SaII 3rd March 2008, 05:16 Quote
if they put out a crappy demo or doesn't even have a demo, I would pirate the game first and decide to buy, like cod4
talladega 3rd March 2008, 08:03 Quote
i voted yes. but i havent in a long time. really there has been only one game i even play which i bought. any other game just isnt good enough to warrant buying as i will only play it for a short time then delete it. now that i will soon have a pc that can handle games and i can afford them i will start to buy games. i'll still DL to try and delete them and get it if its good.

if you could rent PC games i think people would pirate less.
naokaji 3rd March 2008, 08:19 Quote
I've used to do it a lot when I was young and had no income (i coudnt have bought them anyway, zero loss for them),the little money i had went to hardware, but now? either a game is good, Orange Box for example then i buy it, or its crap like for example nfs pro street, then I dont buy it (but also dont pirate it), having a neighbour with a xbox360 who buys like every game out there ftw... better than any demo.

As for the second hand market, well, its one of those sided swords, I mean if you know you will be able to recoup some of the cost later on it it might increase the chance that you buy it to start with, on the other side the manufacturer would get more if who ever you sell it to would go buy it from the bargain bin, btw, many games, music cd's, dvd's, software and whatever allready states either on the disc itself or in the eula that selling it would be illegal (even though the law says something else), so its only a question of time until the mafia ehh riaa will come for you for that too.
Bogomip 3rd March 2008, 09:45 Quote
Now that im in a position to buy games I buy the ones I like (i.e. I have money!). Saying that I don't buy alot of games, this year im going to buy WOW: Wrath of the lich king and Spore, afaik thats it.

The guys rant about piracy made alot of sense tbh, id never suspect they put in security checks halfway through a game! :O

I fully understand kids pirating. When I was a kid I had about enough money to buy a £16 game every 4 weeks, IF i didn't buy anything else - and they were the days when PC Games weren't £16. I realise the price is probalbly fine, but my point is many of the people pirating will just be kids who cant afford it anyway, some of it will be people who crave having everything on the internet. The people who pirate when they have the money is just ridiculous though, its stealing for the sake of stealing.

People pirating a game the having the audacity to post on their forums complaining are just ******s. If one of the games I pirated back in the day wouldn't work it was que sera sera, if I can't ****ing afford to buy it then I don't deserve the tech support - even me as a 15 year old knew THAT.
Tomm 3rd March 2008, 10:40 Quote
I used to Pirate games when they came on floppy disks. My friend had one of the original 2D Duke Nukem games, and I borrowed the disk and played it on my own computer.

Since then, I don't bother, games are pretty cheap anyway :)
Ryu_ookami 3rd March 2008, 10:47 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bogomip
this year im going to buy WOW: Wrath of the lich king

save your money buy guild wars instead its a better game :)
Blademrk 3rd March 2008, 14:44 Quote
Never pirated any games (or movies/music for that matter), I'll borrow a game from a friend (console) and if it's good I'll probably buy it at some point.
Haven't really bought any games for the PC for a while, but that's generally because my PC won't play much these days.
Bogomip 3rd March 2008, 14:55 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ryu_ookami
save your money buy guild wars instead its a better game :)
save your comments and buy stocks in an appropriate thread?

Id imagine more console games will start to get pirated the more net integrated they get, its harder to pirate console games but they are getting more like PCs every day.
Veles 3rd March 2008, 14:58 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by supermonkey
Following that logic, nothing should ever be sold second hand. Buy a shirt at a thrift store and you just robbed a department store and a designer of a sale. There is a difference between piracy and buying second hand. For one, assuming the seller didn't make any copies and is still playing the game, the license has been transferred to you.

But the main topic against piracy in Joe's quote is lack of developer support, one of the reasons Iron Lore had to close down was lost sales due to piracy.

I'm not saying buying second hand is bad and evil, I'm saying that if you're looking from the perspective of supporting the developer, buying second hand is no better than pirating. The reason I buy games isn't so I'm not breaking copyright law, it's because the developer made a good game, I want to pay them so they can carry on making good games, and I definitely want to support them if they make a good game that isn't laden with DRM, like Stardock's games and the original CoH (wasn't impressed by the steam like login system they introduced in the expansion pack ). So for me, I rarely buy second hand.
mushky 3rd March 2008, 15:03 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by Veles
But the topic of this piracy thread is developer support, one of the reasons Iron Lore had to close down was lost sales due to piracy, buying a game second hand is no better for supporting the developer than pirating the game.

Totally agree. 2nd hand is seen as acceptable but piracy isn't, so people will easily own up to, and defend, 2nd hand sales.
lockdown 3rd March 2008, 15:16 Quote
Yes, I have tried pirating games for the pc because it is more cheaper than buying the original cd.
CardJoe 3rd March 2008, 15:49 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by Veles
It's debatable whether that's any better than pirating, with a second hand sale, the developers get nothing, in their eyes you may as well have pirated it.

True, but it's an acceptable middle ground to me for people who are short on cash but who want the games. At least that money goes into the games industry at some level - just having it go into retail stores is good to some degree as it provides more of a market for more game to be sold on etc I suppose.
Bauul 3rd March 2008, 16:02 Quote
Honestly? Yes. Not anymore, but in the past I've priated maybe a dozen games or so. But the truth is, no matter what the original article says, had I not been able to pirate them I simply would not have played them, period. I didn't have nearly enough cash to spend on the games, I simply couldn't afford them. Me downloading a copy of a game did not equal one lost sale, I simply would not have played the game.

I worry though that the reason piracy is so rampent is not the evils of people, but simply that it has become a force of habit. Click here, click there, wait a bit, it's-a-game! Easy, simple, rinse and repeat. People have become so used to not paying for games they don't think about it any more, they just do it. You want to play the game? Download it. However, I think for online-delivery systems such as Steam, this isn't the case. Cracking a Steam game is hard and risky, arguably too hard to be worth the effort, so people don't automatically think "Episode 2? Download it!", they just accept that the need to spend money on it, and so do. It's not even an option. There's a bit of me that feels that even if piracy is not as rampent as developers worry it is, we'll be seeing a major gathering of games on digital-distribution platforms such as Steam, locked to a single account.
impar 3rd March 2008, 16:30 Quote
Greetings!

I used to pirate PC games last century.
badders 3rd March 2008, 17:43 Quote
It's been 3 pages now, can someone please correct the poll?
Quote:
I used too

"to"
ChEsTeH 3rd March 2008, 18:12 Quote
Maybe lower the cost of a game to the end user, this may have an effect.
I believe the consumer is getting ripped off 99% of the time.
Veles 3rd March 2008, 18:18 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by CardJoe
True, but it's an acceptable middle ground to me for people who are short on cash but who want the games.

Yeah I agree, it depends on what game I'm buying whether I decide that I'll find it acceptable to buy second hand, for instance, GoW or the 360 version of the orange box sells like hotcakes so I had no qualms with getting that cheap off eBay. However, something like Sins of a Solar Empire or DEFCON I wouldn't buy second hand (not that you actually can in the UK as they're download only, but anyway) as the smaller developers need all the support they can get.
CardJoe 3rd March 2008, 18:27 Quote
Funny you should mention that. I've just been speaking to Introversion today about this.
chrisb2e9 3rd March 2008, 18:33 Quote
What I dont understand is people who steal a game and complain when it doesn't work. isn't that like stealing a car and then complaining to the dealer that there is a broken window, that you broke when stealing the car?
ArtificialHero 3rd March 2008, 18:54 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by CardJoe
True, but it's an acceptable middle ground to me for people who are short on cash but who want the games.

Sorry, it's not a middle ground. Pirating games is illegal. Buying second hand games is not. It's not a grey area, legally or (IMO) morally. We live in a capitalist society. People have every right to buy any products that are legally available for sale. If I don't buy Generic Shooter 3 when it comes out because it's not worth £39.99 to me, buying it for £24.99 3 months down the line second hand is not a lost sale for the developer, as I would not have bought the game at the price at which it was made available for sale initially. Personally, I really don't think that the games industry is anywhere near the sweet spot in terms of game prices. I haven't got any evidence for the following, so take it with a grain of salt however large you want, but my instinct says that if games were priced more in line with DVDs, people would buy a lot more of them, and overall profits would increase. I'd be really interested to hear any justification for game prices being as they are.

Of course, the "I wouldn't have bought it anyway" argument is a common one used by pirates - "I wouldn't have bought the game, so stealing it is not a lost sale". It's not an argument that holds any moral water, but it's certainly relevant to Michael Fitch's back of the envelope calculations in your first post. You can't say that the 90% of people who pirated Generic Shooter 3 would all have bought it if they were unable to (or decided not to!) obtain it illegally.

AH
specofdust 3rd March 2008, 19:09 Quote
Here Here! Piracy is theft. No ifs, no buts! When you pirate games you're stealing food from developers plates. They're underpaid enough as it is, and thanks to pirates stealing games from them, more and more are being made unemployed or having to work reduced paid hours because their employers simply can't keep paying people - so people are going hungry because of piracy!

You people disgust me.
Thacrudd 3rd March 2008, 19:13 Quote
I do not pirate PC games for myself, just to my broke fiends that want a copy of the game I bought (does that count?)
I used to pirate xbox (gen 1) games. I do not anymore because I lost interest, but the games are still there. Now I am very materialistic with any games I aquire. I like looking at my games shelf and enjoying my vast collection af games. I like the way it looks (I know, that's weird lol)

This guy seems real pissed off, and he has every right to be. I feel sorry for him and other companies (large and small) that get the shaft because of piracy.
Veles 3rd March 2008, 19:23 Quote
Remember, morals depend on the person. I believe that morally I should support a developer (that makes a game I enjoy) that is in need of my support so buying a game from a smaller company second hand doesn't feel right to me. Whereas you think it's morally fine so long as you've got it by a legal means (which is in no way wrong). I imagine the reason Joe is saying it's an acceptable middle ground in his eyes is that legally it's fine, but because no money is actually going towards the developer it's still not as good as buying it new, if a developer doesn't make much money it might decide that it has to make a generic shooter to make ends meet instead of something original and fun.

As for game prices, I would like it if they were cheaper, especially console games, £50 RRP is far too much. PC games are priced a bit better IMO, but brand new releases can still be pricey unless you get them off places like play.com at discounted prices.

The reason they can't make them the price of a DVD is a film is shown at the cinema so has usually already gone into profit by the time it gets to DVD, any extra they get is just a bonus. With a game there's nothing like that, although the cost associated with making a typical game is a lot less than making your typical film. The market is also a lot smaller, almost everyone watches films, yes, some films only cater to a certain market, but that's the same with gaming, RTSes only cater to a relatively small section of a large market, but a horror film caters to a relatively small section of a massive market.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Thacrudd
This guy seems real pissed off, and he has every right to be. I feel sorry for him and other companies (large and small) that get the shaft because of piracy.

Yeah he does seem pretty angry, he does make some good points, but at the same time, I think he's complaining about a few things that they shot themselves in the foot over. If you put DRM in a game, IMO you're asking for any trouble you get because of it. I see his points about hardware issues, but he can't expect everyone to be able to flash their BIOS simply to make their game work. Other games manage to get it right. He comes across as a bit elitist on some points really, but I can understand his frustration.

When the hell did they start calling copyright infringement piracy anyway? And why? It's got nothing to do with theft on the high seas.
will. 3rd March 2008, 19:37 Quote
Only game I ever downloaded was the Sims and that was 3 years after it came out.
Ramble 3rd March 2008, 19:39 Quote
I agree with the statement that piracy is bad, but only in a few cases. The games industry is hit pretty bad by piracy, especially the smaller companies. However reading that article screams out that their company did an awful bit of PR work. He blames people not buying the game and increased piracy on bad word of mouth - which wouldn't have existed if they hadn't coded a hideous copy protection system. I respect games studios that do copy protection well - Introversion for example, telling you they need the money. A game which just dumps on onto the desktop with no warning? And you're complaining because people thought it was buggy?
I have no sympathy for this man and his company, that is one of the worst systems I have ever heard of.
mctigger 3rd March 2008, 20:25 Quote
i have only ever pirated a few games, was when i was a lad and no income, and me parents would spend the cash on it. think it was a champ manager and soldier of fortune. lol now i buy all my games legit
BlueTrin 3rd March 2008, 21:06 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by chrisb2e9
What I dont understand is people who steal a game and complain when it doesn't work. isn't that like stealing a car and then complaining to the dealer that there is a broken window, that you broke when stealing the car?

Don't underestimate the power brought by a system where masses can complain without giving your real name and without the fear of being punched in the face for being an idiot : )
Cthippo 3rd March 2008, 21:57 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by chrisb2e9
What I dont understand is people who steal a game and complain when it doesn't work. isn't that like stealing a car and then complaining to the dealer that there is a broken window, that you broke when stealing the car?

Unless it's the try before you buy crowd. That, and people just like to complain. The point is, that if a bunch of people are ranting about what a POS this game is, are you going to go out and buy it? If a game is buggy and the developer says "That's only because people are pirating it", are you going to believe them?

As much as I hate this fact, perception matters. I really sounds like this developer did it to themselves. They delivered a product that was hard to make work, and which was intentionally broken for significant part of the user base.

Lets take a look at the user expierience for a minute. You hear about this great new game coming out, maybe see a little advertsing about it. Of course, in this day and age no one trusts the claims that manufacturers make, but at least we know a game is coming that might be interesting. So then one of two things happens. Either you wait to see what other people say about it, or you download it and try it yourself before spending money on it. If you do the first you see a lot of people saying this game is crap, it crashes at the first quest and the developer replies "That's because you pirated it" or "That's because your computer isn't up to date".

In the other case, you download the game and it crashes all the time and you decide it's a total POS and feel good about not spending money on it.

Neither of these outcomes are likley to encourage potential customer to buy your product. The fact that they did as well as they did only shows that there are a lot of people willing to take a big risk on a game without researching it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael Fitch
Titan Quest did okay. We didn't lose money on it. But if even a tiny fraction of the people who pirated the game had actually spent some god-damn money for their 40+ hours of entertainment, things could have been very different today.

Does anyone else hear just a slight bit of entitlement in that statement? I don't want to put words in his mouth, but it sure sounds like he thinks the world owes him a living because he made a good game. What I don't hear in the quoted post is any acknoledgement that they bear any responsibility for the failure of the game. It's all someone elses fault. It's pirates fault, it the reviewers fault, it's the stupid customer's fault. Don't blame us, we made a great game and it's everyone elses fault for not buying it.

And besides that, they didn't lose money on it, so why are they going out of business?
Hamish 3rd March 2008, 23:22 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by CardJoe
Funny you should mention that. I've just been speaking to Introversion today about this.

i pirated defcon, but i had it pre-ordered the whole time but the pirated one was out before my pre-order went active (steam)
i wonder if that counts as pirated or a sale wherever these numbers come from (still havent seen any sources for them :p)

was checking the release dates for defcon on wikipedia and it just reminded me how much they take the piss
i find it mind-boggling and franky insulting that games are still released on different dates for different areas
i cant remember which game it was but i remember last year marvelling at how there was a game on sale US Retail for like a week before it was available on steam
i suppose you could argue shipping time or something (but it probably all comes from taiwan anyway :p) for retail but delaying online distribution for a week? what the hell

ET:Quake Wars is the only game i can think of that was released in the EU before the US
CardJoe 4th March 2008, 00:05 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cthippo

Does anyone else hear just a slight bit of entitlement in that statement? I don't want to put words in his mouth, but it sure sounds like he thinks the world owes him a living because he made a good game. What I don't hear in the quoted post is any acknoledgement that they bear any responsibility for the failure of the game. It's all someone elses fault. It's pirates fault, it the reviewers fault, it's the stupid customer's fault. Don't blame us, we made a great game and it's everyone elses fault for not buying it.

While I agree with you about his copy protection schemes, I think he's actually implying that it would be different if the pirates had spent money on it. It's less about him being entitled to a living for making a good game, but more to do with him being entitled to not to be stolen from - or to expect that much at least.
Quote:
Originally Posted by CTHippo

And besides that, they didn't lose money on it, so why are they going out of business?

Well, supposedly it was a number of different factors. Titan quest was just one - and just because they made profit doesn't mean that they made enough profit for their business to remain financially viable.
Veles 4th March 2008, 00:22 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hamish
ET:Quake Wars is the only game i can think of that was released in the EU before the US

We get spore a day earlier woo!11

It is rather annoying, the main problem is for a US release you only need english, and spanish if you're feeling generous. For a european release there are so many languages to localise the game into so it takes a while to get the game ready for the european market. I do like how a lot of developers are going for general releases now and get their acts together with localisation, but with some games it's still awful.
Amon 4th March 2008, 01:58 Quote
I tip my hat to the one person who voted "Well, I tell people I don't, but really I do."
Rebourne 4th March 2008, 03:08 Quote
I pirate console games out of spite. I can't play because i don't have a modded console but I wan't the console piracy rate to look really high too. Then maybe the developers would come back.
Gravemind123 4th March 2008, 05:48 Quote
Most games I pirate I only play at LANs where at least one friend has bought, but the rest of us don't like it enough to dish out $50 for it, but we all want to have something to play with each other. I also pirate every game I've ever bought, as I lose/scratch disks all the time, also if I lost the cd-key I would still want to be able to at least play single-player for a given game. Now that I have a steady part-time job(high-school student) I can see my piracy rate going down and my purchasing rate going up, although I still think I will "try before I buy" as the saying goes. Don't want to spend 6.5 hours of work on something that ends up being crap, if I can only buy a couple games a month I'm gonna make sure they are good ones.
notatoad 4th March 2008, 06:11 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hamish
i wonder if that counts as pirated or a sale wherever these numbers come from

probably counts as both a sale and a lost sale. aren't statistics wonderful?
supermonkey 4th March 2008, 16:08 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ramble
He blames people not buying the game and increased piracy on bad word of mouth - which wouldn't have existed if they hadn't coded a hideous copy protection system. I respect games studios that do copy protection well - Introversion for example, telling you they need the money. A game which just dumps on onto the desktop with no warning? And you're complaining because people thought it was buggy?
I have no sympathy for this man and his company, that is one of the worst systems I have ever heard of.
I think that's one of his points: The game wasn't buggy. If people had just bought a legal copy of the game, they wouldn't have been dumped to the desktop, the copy protection would have been transparent, and there would have been no reason for the unwarranted bad word of mouth.

The argument that second-hand sales are as bad as piracy doesn't really hold water. In the case of piracy, everybody gets their copy of the game from a common source, usually on-line. It only takes one person to buy the game, crack it, and post it to the interwebs (or, one person to sneak a free copy out of the production house, factory, etc.).

In the case of second-hand sales, in order for the millions of people to buy a used game, millions of other people had to buy that game first, which puts money in the developers' pockets.

They really are different animals.

-monkey
steveo_mcg 4th March 2008, 16:15 Quote
TBF though they've tried to be clever with the copy protection and its totally back fired to give a bad impression of the product if they didn't bother with the cp they would have probably come out of the whole fiasco with more sales. Word of mouth is a very powerful marketing technique especially with the web and they have blown it by creating there own bad press.
mushky 4th March 2008, 16:16 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by ArtificialHero
Sorry, it's not a middle ground. Pirating games is illegal. Buying second hand games is not. It's not a grey area, legally or (IMO) morally.
2nd hand games may not be illegal but it's certainly breaking the EULA. But that's OK is it?
steveo_mcg 4th March 2008, 16:19 Quote
EULA isn't worth the electrons used to project it.
impar 4th March 2008, 16:20 Quote
Greetings!
Quote:
Originally Posted by supermonkey
I think that's one of his points: The game wasn't buggy. If people had just bought a legal copy of the game, they wouldn't have been dumped to the desktop, the copy protection would have been transparent, and there would have been no reason for the unwarranted bad word of mouth.
Yep.

Reminds me of this 2006 SiN Episodes story:
Quote:
Within three hours of the release of Ritual's SiN Episodes Emergence, the game was pirated and up on the 'Net; releasing it on Steam had little effect on piracy, at least initially. When a bug in the game was discovered, Ritual patched it and released the update via Steam... and that update was applied to the game slyly, in the background. Users who had paid for the game received the update. Those who had pirated the game didn't, but that didn't stop them from complaining to customer support.

According to Michael Russell of Ritual Entertainment, customer support requests from users who had pirated the content outnumbered requests from legitimate users by a ratio of five to one. Not only is the result disheartening for a developer, but as Russell points out, it's also a considerable drain on resources.

"Last week, the pirates outnumbered the true customers by almost five to one. It takes time and resources to track down solutions to people's problems. I spent seven hours searching for answers to one guy's problem just to find out that when I asked him a question regarding a setting, he was checking on his friend's machine for the "right" answer and then on his machine and if the two didn't match, he was reporting the "right" answer so I wouldn't know he had a pirated version," Russell wrote on his blog.

Russell also catalogs the various excuses he has received when uncovering instances of piracy, such as

* "A person who pirates wouldn't buy it anyway"
* "It's try before you buy, so you only support people who deserve it"
* "I'm poor and can't afford $20"
* "We aren't stealing from you, we're stealing from the faceless corporation"
* "We're only stealing the bits, not the merchandise."

Piracy is hurting the bottom line, however, and Russell explains that PC gaming piracy in particular is merely driving more and more developers to abandon the platform in favor of console games which are harder to copy.
Major 4th March 2008, 16:36 Quote
Is it actually possible to create anti piracy code or something which will make a game unplayable if ripped?
mushky 4th March 2008, 16:40 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by steveo_mcg
EULA isn't worth the electrons used to project it.

I could say something similar about copyright laws. It wouldn't change a thing.
steveo_mcg 4th March 2008, 16:52 Quote
Copyright laws are government backed enforceable laws, **** ones but law just the same. EULA's are pretty much unenforceable contract, in Scottish law and i assume in English law a contract must be written to level of the person intended to read and agree to it A 20 page legalese document is over the head of most gamers also to agree to a contract you can not be a minor there for any children playing your game would be unbound by your EULA, theres a whole list of problems with EULAs they still put them on so they can scare people but not a court in either land would enforce them.
boiled_elephant 4th March 2008, 16:52 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by Krikkit
It sounds like excuse-mongering, but I'll only pirate something if I know I'd never buy it.

Otherwise I'll wait and see. Crysis for example, I haven't bought (lack of cash), nor pirated yet (because I'll definately buy it one day). It's a poor excuse, and not really much of a veil for my conscience, but there we are. :p

No, that sounds pretty on-the-ball to me. For example, I bought 2 Colin McRae games, then started pirating them, simply because they're all the same, but with better graphics.
I just thought of something. If you're really anti-piracy, a really good tactic would be to upload pirated copies with a couple of critical files missing and a corrupted crack, so they can never play it and get frustrated enough to buy it. That happened to me with McRae 2005. The pirate copy never worked, so I just bought it, and was pleasantly surprised.

I pirate according to quality, normally, and the climate surrounding them. Doom 3, for example, didn't trouble my conscience, because (a) already had it on xbox and felt robbed in that sense, (b) they'd made an unbelievable amount of money on initial hype-sales, which the game didn't really merit, and (c) I was never going to bother buying it anyway.

I've given up trying to find moral lines in all this. I buy when I can, steal the rest. I don't try to excuse this behaviour, it's just the way I do things.
MrMonroe 4th March 2008, 17:16 Quote
Another "used to" kid. Then I got a job with a software company and I realize that if I'd like to play good games in the future, I'd better pay up.
supermonkey 4th March 2008, 17:23 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by boiled_elephant
I don't try to excuse this behaviour, it's just the way I do things.
You just listed 3 reasons that you used to justify piracy.
Quote:
Originally Posted by boiled_elephant
I pirate according to quality, normally, and the climate surrounding them. Doom 3, for example, didn't trouble my conscience, because (a) already had it on xbox and felt robbed in that sense, (b) they'd made an unbelievable amount of money on initial hype-sales, which the game didn't really merit, and (c) I was never going to bother buying it anyway.
I'm not sure I understand. In point A you said that you already had it for the XBox; however, in point C you said that you weren't going to buy it anyway. Did you buy it for the XBox, or was that version pirated, as well?

In Point B, are you suggesting that a developer's profits determine the legitimacy of piracy? If so, can you quantify the amount of profits required before piracy is legitimate?

Point C doesn't really make sense to me. You say that you had no plans to buy it, but you spent time and effort to obtain a pirated copy. If you were going to play it anyway, why not spend the money for a legitimate copy?

-monkey
will. 4th March 2008, 18:13 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by Major
Is it actually possible to create anti piracy code or something which will make a game unplayable if ripped?

Of course. Doesn't mean that code will hold up though.
mikeuk2004 4th March 2008, 18:24 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by Thacrudd
I do not pirate PC games for myself, just to my broke fiends that want a copy of the game I bought (does that count?)

This guy seems real pissed off, and he has every right to be. I feel sorry for him and other companies (large and small) that get the shaft because of piracy.


You feel sorry for him and other companies, but distribute copies of your games to your friends? and therefore are a pirate. ok...Make your mind up.

Anyway, I dont feel sorry for them as I dont personally know them and admit to pirating in the past for myself. I think the main problem is the people who distribute copies and make them available and those that try to make a profit from them. Kill the big distributors and you will see a huge difference.

But it doesnt look like they are very successful at that and people like the RIAA are giving up and going for the little downloader (user) instead.

I have however made an effort to remove all and any pirate media from my home as im materialistic and must have boxes :) My xbox 360 and PS3 are clean from piracy, however my PC needs a OS and I still have 2 games on there which are not paid for but in the process of buying them sometime soon.
badders 4th March 2008, 18:51 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by mikeuk2004
I have however made an effort to remove all and any pirate media from my home as im materialistic and must have boxes :) My xbox 360 and PS3 are clean from piracy, however my PC needs a OS and I still have 2 games on there which are not paid for but in the process of buying them sometime soon.

You bring up an interesting point.
I wonder if anyone here who doesn't pirate games, does use a cracked version of windows or (less commonly) OSX?
Does it seem to anyone that using a cracked Operating system is "less wrong" because Microsoft have the market share they do?

For instance, one of my friends won't pirate games, but he's never bought an Operating System in his life - and I don't mean he uses FOSS.
He sees this as acceptable because "Microsoft make enough money out of people" (his words, not mine).
Thacrudd 4th March 2008, 19:03 Quote
Now that I think about it, I will ISO a game if I can so I can virtual drive it so I'm not switching out a billion discs all the time, but that doesn't count I guess. Plain and simple, piracy is stealing any way you look at it and at some point we will all come into contact and accept it in some way or form. Even the "try before you buy" guys.
Firehed 4th March 2008, 19:18 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by supermonkey
I think that's one of his points: The game wasn't buggy. If people had just bought a legal copy of the game, they wouldn't have been dumped to the desktop, the copy protection would have been transparent, and there would have been no reason for the unwarranted bad word of mouth.
Doesn't matter what his intentions were, just what came out of it. If you heard about some incident a while back where a dev put in a piece of anti-piracy code that started wiping data... let's just say the result wasn't pretty, and he had to fully open-source the app in order to make an attempt at saving face.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Major
Is it actually possible to create anti piracy code or something which will make a game unplayable if ripped?

Yes, and it's been done. Incidentally, those are the games I run a cracked version of despite owning a legal copy.
Zurechial 4th March 2008, 21:39 Quote
I can understand the guy being bitter and pissed off about the whole situation, but what fool had the 'bright idea' to put such a copy-protection system into the game, when they damn-well knew it would be pirated anyway?

Sure, it'd be nice to live in a perfect world where nobody pirated games, but here's a few points about their in-game check:
+ It was stupid and naive of them to think that someone wouldn't get a pre-release rip out on the net.
+ If they knew there would be a rip on the net, it was stupid and naive of them to assume that a cracker would be good enough to cleanly and completely circumvent their in-game check (Such copy-protection schemes by their very nature aren't intended to be transparent to would-be crackers, after all).
+ If they were going to go to the effort of such an elaborate copy-check tied into the game mechanics then they could have at least included an error message along the lines of "Copy protection check failed, exiting game" instead of crashing silently in a manner that looks exactly like a bug - That would have done a fair bit of damage control on the people who thought the game was just bugged and badly-made.

He said it himself, people are stupid, so why didn't they account for that when they were wasting their time on such an elaborate protection system?
Maybe because 'people' were working on the game?

The effort they spent on putting a such a system into the game may have been better spent making other aspects of the game better, such that people might actually think the game is worth buying.

Companies who use simple copy-protection systems (basic cd-checks, etc) that get the job done of preventing the "copying for a friend" type of piracy should be lauded in my eyes.
Others have gone to great lengths in eroding the rights and convenience of the end-user (StarForce, later versions of SecuRom and the insidious, hideous, disgusting C-Dilla system) but where does it get them?
Nowhere - The systems get cracked soon after release (or even before) and the honest end-user who paid for the game is the one to suffer the hardship, inconvenience and intrusion of privacy (C-Dilla monitoring drive usage and phoning home), while the prat who plays a pirated copy may have a more pleasant, problem-free time with the game.

Though I find the reliance on an active connection irksome, I find systems like Steam to be an almost pleasant copy-protection experience because I gain some advantages as the honest end-user (no disc required to play, streaming updates, cheaper initial game costs) instead of just being treated like criminal dirt.

--

I'm against piracy. I buy albums, I buy movies, I buy games.
I used to download games when I was younger and couldn't afford to buy them, since I thought I may as well play the games and show my appreciation for them, which would be better than not getting to play them at all.
As soon as I gained an income I stopped downloading games and began buying everything I could and haven't looked back since.
The only time I'll download games now is when the games are certifiably Abandonware and can't be bought any more. Buying them on eBay doesn't give any money back to the copyright-holders, so that doesn't count in my eyes.

--

A few years ago I contacted Interplay, asking them if they could tell me where I could buy a first-hand retail copy of Planescape Torment, or perhaps sell it to me themselves, since the game could no longer be bought in stores.
Interplay sent me a brand new, sealed retail copy of the game (including manuals, original box, etc) for free, with a hand-written note along the lines of "Enjoy :)".

I wanted even more to pay them for the game, then.
CardJoe 4th March 2008, 22:55 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by Zurechial

A few years ago I contacted Interplay, asking them if they could tell me where I could buy a first-hand retail copy of Planescape Torment, or perhaps sell it to me themselves, since the game could no longer be bought in stores.
Interplay sent me a brand new, sealed retail copy of the game (including manuals, original box, etc) for free, with a hand-written note along the lines of "Enjoy :)".

I wanted even more to pay them for the game, then.

This is my Envy face:

http://img131.imageshack.us/img131/6831/n2731024701346783241nw1.jpg
oasked 4th March 2008, 23:11 Quote
That is just crying out to be photoshopped. Anyone for Relix #2?! :p
Brooxy 4th March 2008, 23:19 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by oasked
That is just crying out to be photoshopped. Anyone for Relix #2?! :p

Heretic! You cannot replace The Relix, for He is a living incarnation of a deity.

Anywho, I've pirated a couple, such as Sims 2 for my ex, because i'd be damned before actually paying for it, and a few other games on a "try before buy" basis. But I've grown older and wiser, and I actually now the take time to read reviews, and make up my mind about whether it's worth buying, buying when it comes to budget, or not touching with a 12' bargepole.
Krikkit 5th March 2008, 00:00 Quote
Why is everyone so against the 2nd hand market?

I don't see why we should be considered *******s for not being able to afford to buy new games all the time, and lest you forget that a thriving 2nd hand market will encourage more games sales because you know that if you hate it, you can get rid of it and not have wasted your money on a product you have to keep ad inifnitum.

It certainly makes me buy more games, and everytime I get stiffed for something like that it makes me less inclined to buy games, despite the fact that I love them dearly.
Tomm 5th March 2008, 01:20 Quote
I'm sure the second hand market doesn't do too much harm. After all, most people who trade their games do so in order that they have more money to spend on newer games anyway. I certainly did throughout my teenage years. Likewise, you don't hear the record companies complaining about second hand record shops (of which there are many).
DougEdey 5th March 2008, 01:44 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by oasked
That is just crying out to be photoshopped. Anyone for Relix #2?! :p

BANG! AND THE JOB IS DONE!
fathazza 5th March 2008, 02:12 Quote
i bought titan quest about a year ago and havent actually got around to installing it yet....
so surely i cancel out one pirater, where are idiots like me factoring into his equation eh ? :)

other than the fiscal side of piracy, it must be seriously demoralising when you know that literally thousands of people are stealing the thing you've just worked so hard on.
I think that alone would be enough to make me shut up shop.

ps. joe you look scarily like a girl i know, which is mightily worring!
oasked 5th March 2008, 10:46 Quote
Nice one doug! ;)

Do you think piracy is encouraging the rise of the MMO? With an MMO developers constantly receive money and its very difficult to pirate.

At the moment I've just started playing Eve Online and I can feel myself being drawn in.
Silver51 5th March 2008, 11:54 Quote
Personally, I don't pirate games.

I do crack the games I've bought so I'm not sitting next to something that sounds like a buzzsaw.

One thing that I cant understand is people who say they pirate games just to see what they're like. Only if they like the game, then they'll by it. It just like taking cookies from girl scouts and telling them they can have the cash if the biscuits are any good. Still theft imo.
Ryu_ookami 5th March 2008, 13:11 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by Silver51
It just like taking cookies from girl scouts and telling them they can have the cash if the biscuits are any good.

you say that like its a bad thing. do you not know that girl scouts are the devils recon scouts and must be destroyed at all costs. The only way to destroy a girl scout is by nicking her cookies and then running away :)

This destroys the evil spirit inside the poor little girl the girl scout is possessing she'll be so grateful that you nicked the cookies and freed her that she will stand they crying her eyes out in thanks.

either that or

you'll see her explode in a puff of smoke.

try it and see :)
Veles 5th March 2008, 13:32 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by fathazza
ps. joe you look scarily like a girl i know, which is mightily worring!

Same here

In that pic at least, I think it's the hair's fault.
Bogomip 5th March 2008, 16:08 Quote
If I made a game, which I intend to, I wouldn't mind people pirating it if I had enough money to get by on, and they didn't come to my forums after downloading it and whining about it.

After all, people dont steal your car then come back 2 days later whining you only have a tape player and no spare tyre.
Veles 5th March 2008, 16:18 Quote
That's the thing that would annoy me, but then they should take into account that they'd whine about it.

Piracy is going to happen, guaranteed, so why not make the most of it and use it as a marketing tool? Make your games user friendly by making them DRM free, and you'll get good press like Stardock does, hell, you'll even get people buying the game who aren't interested in it in the slightest because they want to support the DRM free stance. Make your games work well right off the bat, and you won't get so many complaints.

I remember when I pirated Stronghold to see what it was like, I found it was buggy as hell, so I uninstalled it and I never decided to play it again, even though all those bugs are probably now fixed and the game works fine. The first impression is the most important, if you make it good you will sell more copies. It doesn't matter if the person who is playing it is playing it legally or illegally, if you leave a poor first impression people will hear about it, and you will lose sales.

If you want more sales, give people a reason to buy the final copy over pirating it (instead of the other way around by loading it with DRM), like only being able to download patches if you have a valid game serial code (using a system like Steam or Stardock Central for patch distribution) or only being able to play online if you have created an account with the registered game (but with multiple aliases for if your little brother wants to play too).

This is pretty basic marketing, I'm surprised he ignored it and then complains that it's everyone else's fault he had to shut down. A design that does work but requires your average user to do things they're uncomfortable about doing, or plain don't know how to, is a failed design.
DougEdey 5th March 2008, 17:43 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by will.
Of course. Doesn't mean that code will hold up though.

Actually, it's easily done but harder to copy, it's what copy protection drivers do, basically on a CD/DVD there are extra "sub channels" the two main ones are used by videos for sub-titles/extra audio, but the others are normally left alone and the reader will ignore them, but games have extra "data" placed in there on purpose so to a normal driver it is ignored, but copy protection drivers look at them and ensure the "garbage" is in the correct format.
Firehed 5th March 2008, 17:54 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tomm
I'm sure the second hand market doesn't do too much harm. After all, most people who trade their games do so in order that they have more money to spend on newer games anyway. I certainly did throughout my teenage years. Likewise, you don't hear the record companies complaining about second hand record shops (of which there are many).
Most people who trade in games go spend that money on a newer but still second-hand game, netting the publishers/producers all of $0. Or so has been my experience, anyways.

And the music industry absolutely complains about second-hand shops. They just know there's not a damn thing they can do about it.

Truth be told, I think many would prefer to have their content downloaded than resold second-hand. For all they're concerned, it might as well be a pirated Chinese knock-off copy, since it's a copy of their product that's actually being *sold* and they're not getting anything from it. I can't speak for the industry, but I'd rather nobody get paid than someone who's not me get paid when content I produced is acquired.
Kipman725 5th March 2008, 18:03 Quote
I pirate alot and buy second hand alot and play lots of free games, or I just wait a few years till the game is cheap and patched. The last full price game I bought was stalker becuase it was an awsome game vastly underapriciated by the gaming press.
Veles 5th March 2008, 18:16 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by Firehed
Truth be told, I think many would prefer to have their content downloaded than resold second-hand. For all they're concerned, it might as well be a pirated Chinese knock-off copy, since it's a copy of their product that's actually being *sold* and they're not getting anything from it. I can't speak for the industry, but I'd rather nobody get paid than someone who's not me get paid when content I produced is acquired.

QFT, I think you put it perfectly there.
CardJoe 6th March 2008, 11:37 Quote
I've merged this news post with the thread to keep things neat. And, out of force of habit:

http://www.bit-tech.net/news/2008/03/06/piracy_sales_charts_revealed/1
Indie website RockPaperShotgun has done a breakdown of the top ten pirated games and the number of downloads for each.
[USRF]Obiwan 6th March 2008, 12:06 Quote
If we realy want to help the game , music, and movie industry. Then the best action to take is takedown/shutdown the total p2p protocol. This will prevent 'normal' people to easy and freely get access to warez. Because that is the real source of all the problems anyway.
steveo_mcg 6th March 2008, 12:21 Quote
Except that people use it for legitimate purposes, i personally use it more for distros or large game patches more than i do for pirating. Stupid statements like that don't help the cause any.
Veles 6th March 2008, 13:01 Quote
Yep, P2P has perfectly legitimate uses. Banning P2P because people use it for piracy is like banning windows because people install pirated software on it.

Those numbers are pretty scarily high, especially since it's just for mininova. However we'll never know how many of those were lost sales. Could be most, could be only a few. It also depends on how they worked it out, even with a well seeded torrent, I sometimes struggle to get a quick download of larger files, plus if I'm torrenting I'll only do it at night as it would slow everyone elses' internet down. So that means if their number is just going on adding up leechers per day then it's probably very inaccurate. Still they do say it's not very accurate but I wouldn't be surprised if it were roughly right.
MrBadidea 6th March 2008, 13:05 Quote
I had to download myself a copy of COD4... after I had already paid for a copy via steam.

Steam wouldn't let me run it, proclaiming some BS about the Keyserver being down. Only this has continued for like 5 months, and I still can't play the copy I bought.

As for other stuff I've downloaded; I've had problems with Demos before. AKA I've downloaded a demo from some game, and had it work perfectly. Only when I go out and buy myself a copy of the Game, it refuses to work, sometimes even for months before a patch is released that actually fixes the problem.
Veles 6th March 2008, 13:33 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by MrBadidea
As for other stuff I've downloaded; I've had problems with Demos before. AKA I've downloaded a demo from some game, and had it work perfectly. Only when I go out and buy myself a copy of the Game, it refuses to work, sometimes even for months before a patch is released that actually fixes the problem.

Yeah I had the problem with Darkstar one, demo worked fine, I thought it was quite fun. Bought the game, it ran like total ****, and the actual full game was so dull, it was basically the demo on repeat. Had I known how the game had turned out I would never have bought it.
BigD79 6th March 2008, 13:44 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by Silver51
It just like taking cookies from girl scouts and telling them they can have the cash if the biscuits are any good.

Do you get many Girl Scouts selling cookies in Cornwall?:|

I put “Never” but realised nearly all my Amiga games were pirated. Way back when we lived in Cyprus we couldn’t get hold of legit ones so when ever anyone came over with a “real” game it would get copied and do the rounds. I’ve copied music (a few albums) I’d never have brought them as I rarely listen to music (other than radio/last.fm etc) but theft is theft.

Those figures from the news article are shocking. Trouble is people will always want something for nothing or less.

As for the second hand market isn't it more of a console thing. Good games must sell well 1st hand long enough to cover dev costs (surely??) as people want to play them. Bad games end up in the 2nd hand aisles quicker and thus (in my head at least) mean the 1st hand sales a low due to being poor or unmarketable game. The developer go’s back to the drawing board. Surely it helps to keep the market going, as low sales figures mean the developer improves its next project, and the previous 2nd hand sales, with higher profits for vendors, keep the vendors happy to stock games isn’t it win win?
rjkoneill 6th March 2008, 13:57 Quote
torrent sites should ban files over a certain size
put a 1gb limit on them
that way games wont be distributed

i dont know - i dont bother with torrents etc
i have a life
impar 6th March 2008, 14:03 Quote
Greetings!
Quote:
Originally Posted by CardJoe
I've merged this news post with the thread to keep things neat. And, out of force of habit:

http://www.bit-tech.net/news/2008/03/06/piracy_sales_charts_revealed/1
Indie website RockPaperShotgun has done a breakdown of the top ten pirated games and the number of downloads for each.
Had already pointed that out:
Quote:
Originally Posted by impar
Choose a AAA game and check torrent sites. Some do show the number of downloads.
Quote:
Originally Posted by impar
Some torrent trackers do show the downloads number.
Checking Mininova, for example, it has ~180.000 CoD4-PC downloads for the most popular... "versions". Once you imagine the numbers from other torrent sites and other P2P delivery systems you get an idea on how prevalent P2P freeloading is.
Its mind-boggling the first time one realises it, isnt it?
iwog 6th March 2008, 14:07 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by rjkoneill
torrent sites should ban files over a certain size
put a 1gb limit on them
that way games wont be distributed

i dont know - i dont bother with torrents etc
i have a life

LAMO, you mean like rapid share does, all be it a 100meg limit. Then you just get stuff like this happening. Check comments 4 & 6, split archive anyone? And thats not even a popular game so think how many file hosting sites will have split archives of AAA games on them.

And you have a life, how much effort do you think it takes to torrent. Once the inital setup of port forwarding, finding decent trackers is done its just a matter of clicking a link, setting a download location and leaving alone.
Veles 6th March 2008, 14:34 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by rjkoneill
torrent sites should ban files over a certain size
put a 1gb limit on them
that way games wont be distributed

i dont know - i dont bother with torrents etc
i have a life

That's not the answer either, there are games that are less than 1 gig (not a lot of new ones admittedly), but the whole point of P2P is it's good for distributing large files because it doesn't take all that bandwidth from a single server like it would if you downloaded it from rapidshare or fileplanet. It also won't stop stuff like films, TV, music, etc. being pirated.
Leitchy 6th March 2008, 14:42 Quote
I admit, I'm one of those bad pirates that download games and have no intention of buying them for the Single Player. And yes, I fall under the category that "I wouldn't of bought it anyways" which is true.

What I do buy into though, is the online gameplay. Games such as COD4, Sins of a Solar Empire I bought because I want to play online!

I know what I'm doing is wrong and wither or not it affects the publisher is arguable. Piracy is here to stay, and developers need to realise that there product is going to be cracked whatever protection they put on it, so they should probably stop affecting the actual buyers of the game with all the Copy Protection schemes that install system processes etc.
AcidJiles 6th March 2008, 14:46 Quote
Alot of these are people testing to see if the game is worth it thats the only reason I downloaded games and I havent for about a year now. Any way as im sure somebody has said and this relates to all piracy a download does not equal anywhere near a lost sale.
Silver51 6th March 2008, 16:27 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by BigD79
Do you get many Girl Scouts selling cookies in Cornwall?:|

Well, Cornwall, Hollywood, same thing really...


Whenever articles like this come up in the press, I can't help but think of those design studios that have disappeared. I guess each has their own reason for closing but when names like Ion Storm and Troika Games bite the dust, I feel a little bit sad inside.
supermonkey 6th March 2008, 17:23 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by Firehed
Truth be told, I think many would prefer to have their content downloaded than resold second-hand. For all they're concerned, it might as well be a pirated Chinese knock-off copy, since it's a copy of their product that's actually being *sold* and they're not getting anything from it. I can't speak for the industry, but I'd rather nobody get paid than someone who's not me get paid when content I produced is acquired.
I don't know about that. If all the people who had downloaded the game went out and bought a second-hand copy instead, that would mean that there was an equivalent number of additional, original sales for the developers.

But, I don't see second-hand shops suddenly stocking their shelves with millions of copies of a given title (or, enough copies to supply the pirate market). I imagine the second-hand market is very small compared to the number of people who pirate. I think it stands to reason that with the supply of second-hand copies exhausted, the would-be pirates would have to spend their money elsewhere and buy a new copy; however, they don't. They just go online and grab a free copy because it costs less (in both dollars and opportunity cost). Regardless, it still stands that when you download a pirated copy of a game, the developer doesn't make any money from an original sale. You are enjoying the fruits of the developer's labor without paying for that privilege.

-monkey
johnmustrule 6th March 2008, 23:51 Quote
I know they did some of the math in the article but just so you know for mininova and assassins creed alone. Its over 6,457,724GB of data being transfered 6.16PB of data. If you wanted 25 thousand copies of a locked assassins creed then on a 128kbs connection it would take 13 and a half years to download :) if you wanted tthem.
notatoad 7th March 2008, 00:22 Quote
i'm in the try before you buy crowd, but i try while the game is a new release and costs $60, then buy when the game is old and boring and costs $30. is this bad?
leexgx 7th March 2008, 00:53 Quote
id love to buy Bioshock but there is an easy to use downlaod copy around that has no problems not buying that game or any of there games untill thay remove that type of protection as the Downloaded ver is Better then the payed for one (The protection only works to prevent legal copys of games to be installed for who have payed for it, it does not prevent the illegal use any way)

i refuse to buy games that have *** protection that uses device drivers or sercrom (cant run some games due to Alcohol 120%, an Payed copy of Bioshock will not run on my pc) if it can be removed via an No cd i am fine i buy it (C&C4 no cd) but bioshock is part of the installer not even downloaded that game

as i use the Mutiplay part of the games i pay the most of my games as punkbuster or just going online game will not let you due to key

-
i norm do try(as well as demos as well) before buy if the game is not intresting no point in spending money on it if i not even going to play it, so its no money lost to the devs any way
PhenomRed 7th March 2008, 02:08 Quote
I admit to pirating games, haven't done it in a while. i download the game, if its good i buy it. i've bought too many expensive games cause they looked good and then found out that they're complete c**p but can't take them back cause the retailers complain about piracy. i would know, i work in an electronics store. if there were more demos around i wouldn't need to download the game to see wat its like.

also, EA and others, if you're reading this, lower your prices. $100 for a game is ridiculous. unless its really awesome. i have crysis
zero0ne 7th March 2008, 07:41 Quote
I only read the first post, but in there he talks about the selling rate of COD4 on console vs computer... he said it was 10 to 1 in favor of the console...

did he forget that COD4 is a ONLINE GAME? that 10 to 1 ratio simply means that 10 times more people play the game online via the console than computer, simple as that.

Its just not the best game to use as an example since the multiplayer part of the game is the reason you buy it (for most people) and you can't play online without a legit CD KEY.


Bioshock is a good example, but at the same time, the fact that the ratio was LOWER(4-1 vs 10-1) than COD4 is odd considering that its a single player only game, and you would think that it would be pirated MORE than a online only game.


I'm not going to argue that piracy doesn't cause revenue losses. of course it does. BUT the easiest way to fight piracy is to take it away from your average computer user. If we were all still stuck in the usenet ways, a lot less people would be pirating overall.

this is where i see STEAM shining. How fast have any of you seen STEAM only games get hacked? I mean aside from the ones they offer in a retail box, every time ive looked into hacking steam games, its a PITA. STEAM is headed in the right direction to help prevent piracy IMO.
culley 7th March 2008, 08:28 Quote
I only ever download games for my 360, but when it comes to my PC i buy them, i have in front of me 10 games that I have bought brand new sealed over the last two years, that must be £300 or more I've spent.

And I have paid for load's of stuff over Steam aswell.
Nictron 7th March 2008, 11:07 Quote
I know people who pirate allot, and they do not have a problem with it. I have also convinced people to stop pirating. I use to buy pirated games because I was uninformed, as soon as I realized my mistake I got the BSA to close the company down. Since that day I have not pirated any games, I check or wait for a Demo and play it, read multiple reviews and then decide, I also have a habit of collecting the top 10 games of the year by buying them.

No guy who pirates will ever convince me that there is a reason to steal!

You can always make sure that you make the right decision before spending the money, Check with a friend, ask for a demo, read reviews, ask for an introduction to the game at the retailer, check the official and non official forums for issues with the game, wait until the first patch is released.

There is honestly no reason to pirate.

If you pirate you are the type of person that likes to use an opportunity to get stuff for free, and in that case you see it as the right thing to do, but it does not deter from that fact that you are hurting the industry, stealing someone else's intellectual property with out compensating for it. If you feel a game is too expensive just wait for the bargain bin!
tomshawn 7th March 2008, 11:18 Quote
I download games, but when they good I always buy an original to keep it. Not a huge pirat anyway...
boiled_elephant 7th March 2008, 12:52 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by supermonkey

I'm not sure I understand. In point A you said that you already had it for the XBox; however, in point C you said that you weren't going to buy it anyway. Did you buy it for the XBox, or was that version pirated, as well?

I bought it for Xbox, and completed it. Buying the same game twice would have been...I dunno, I suppose it's the politically correct thing to do, because my way involved stealing, but in the common-sense way, there seemed no point.
Quote:
Originally Posted by supermonkey
In Point B, are you suggesting that a developer's profits determine the legitimacy of piracy? If so, can you quantify the amount of profits required before piracy is legitimate?

Yeah, I think profits determine legitimacy. I feel ok about stealing from large companies - not because I'm against them (au contraire, I love them) but because it won't impact. I don't pirate small games from small companies - except darwinia, and I feel really bad about that, and am going to buy it soon :( No employees are going to be fired or meals sacrificed by my pirating doom 3, whereas stalker, I made a point of buying, because I wanted to support them.

That's the thing, see. It's a gesture of sorts, of approval or disapproval. Just as you can watch a film in the cinema and then give it a low score on IMDb, I pirate a game, and if I don't like it, I don't buy it. A small gesture.
(Okay, THAT was a lame excuse. I apologise.)
Quote:
Originally Posted by supermonkey
Point C doesn't really make sense to me. You say that you had no plans to buy it, but you spent time and effort to obtain a pirated copy. If you were going to play it anyway, why not spend the money for a legitimate copy?
[immorality]
It was no effort, really. I enjoy pirating, there's a momentary illusion of comradery when 300 peoples' torrents help you steal a product, and when the work of some cracker makes it possible for you to play it.
[/immorality]
I didn't like the game enough to buy it twice. I was just curious if there was anything in the PC experience that the xbox experience lacked. (answer: yes. So maybe I ought to buy it, now. But playing doom 3 three times? That's like...masochism.)
Kierax 7th March 2008, 12:53 Quote
I tend to download certain key releases, if I like I do buy, and my collection of games shows that :)
Veles 7th March 2008, 13:09 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nictron
If you pirate you are the type of person that likes to use an opportunity to get stuff for free, and in that case you see it as the right thing to do, but it does not deter from that fact that you are hurting the industry, stealing someone else's intellectual property with out compensating for it. If you feel a game is too expensive just wait for the bargain bin!

The point people are trying to make is they're not trying to stealing the game, they're testing it out to see if it's worth buying, the only way that causes a lost sale is if the person pirating the game decides the game is awful and they won't waste their money on it.

It's kind of like a bookshop, they'll usually have an area where you can sit down and read a book to see if you like it. You pick out a book, read a chapter or two, if you like what you've read, you buy it, if you don't, you put it back.
Tyinsar 7th March 2008, 23:51 Quote
When I was much younger (at least 20 years back) I "copied" a few games - I even broke the copy protection on a few (using a simple hex-editor, It was so easy back then). Since then though - I won't even consider it. I'd break the protection with no-CD cracks on a game I bought (just to make it less of a hassle to play) but I wouldn't pirate it.

Generally games are pretty good value for the money (at least the good ones are) when compared to movies, DVDs, the symphony (don't laugh, I enjoyed it), concert tickets, ...
dork 8th March 2008, 00:07 Quote
Used to for pc back in the day. honestly if i had a decent pc anymore, i probably would. As much as i enjoy piracy, i get tired of pc gamers getting mad at games going to consoles, and then they pirate the game when its released on pc.
BlueTrin 10th March 2008, 03:18 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by leexgx
id love to buy Bioshock but there is an easy to use downlaod copy around that has no problems not buying that game or any of there games untill thay remove that type of protection as the Downloaded ver is Better then the payed for one (The protection only works to prevent legal copys of games to be installed for who have payed for it, it does not prevent the illegal use any way)

i refuse to buy games that have *** protection that uses device drivers or sercrom (cant run some games due to Alcohol 120%, an Payed copy of Bioshock will not run on my pc) if it can be removed via an No cd i am fine i buy it (C&C4 no cd) but bioshock is part of the installer not even downloaded that game

as i use the Mutiplay part of the games i pay the most of my games as punkbuster or just going online game will not let you due to key

-
i norm do try(as well as demos as well) before buy if the game is not intresting no point in spending money on it if i not even going to play it, so its no money lost to the devs any way


Sorry but that wwas a very bad excuse, you can buy it via steam !!!
Veles 10th March 2008, 03:20 Quote
You still have to deal with the copy protection **** IIRC though, you still only get a limited number of installs, etc.
BlueTrin 10th March 2008, 03:31 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by Veles
You still have to deal with the copy protection **** IIRC though, you still only get a limited number of installs, etc.

Yeah I can see that being a problem depending of the hard drive space. You are supposed to be able to re-ask them free redownloads if you need them, and I think you are given them back over time. I can't remember where I read this though so I may be wrong.
Veles 10th March 2008, 03:45 Quote
Yeah, although to begin with at least, uninstalling the game didn't give you one your your install credits back, I think that's fixed now. I don't really see the need for double copy protection, surely just using steam as the DRM for the steam version would be enough.
CanadianViking 10th March 2008, 07:17 Quote
I used to download both PC and PSP games until recently. I'm not going to cover that up with any excuses. Also, movies and music heavily as well.

But as I get older, I realize exactly what I'm doing. True, I'm a teen and wouldn't of been able to buy the game even if I had wanted to, but it's people with attitudes like my old one (it's free - why pay for it?) that are killing idustries all over. I'm hoping once I get a job soon, I'll be able to buy a copy of XP (running on a pirated one :() and all my favourite games. I can't justify piracy anymore - it's wrong no matter how you slice it.

Within the last 2 months or so though, I've been legit, and I feel better knowing that I'm not supporting the death of the industry anymore.
[USRF]Obiwan 10th March 2008, 08:34 Quote
There is one programme that basicly is "the godfather of protection" going wrong. For over a decade Steinberg's Cubase is using custom protection code to protect from being copied. The 'protection' code is throughoutly woven into the source of the programme on all levels. From basic mouse-movement to note-on registration. The protection works together with a USB dongle, where all the checksums are sitting. Although the usb keystick is a lot better then the printerport dongle from years ago. It still causes all kinds of trouble. Mostly intevering with other audio plugin usb keys.

There are 2 mayor flaws in this woven protection Steinberg is using; 1) without all the protection code, Cubase would have worked 20 times faster and would crash less then now. 2) The protection has always been cracked. Infact it is one of the most 'prestige cracking targets' from crackers around the world. There are only two loosers here, one being Steinberg that still thinks protection works, the second being the users who are working with a slow sometimes crashing expensive program.

One example from my own experience. When I had Cubase VST with a printer dongle. I never could get it to work without crashing. I have contacted steinberg many times. They even send me a new printer dongle. But in the end I had better luck with the cracked version. And with me there where many professional producers around the world, that uses the cracked version instead of their (getting dust on the shelf) original version.
Solidus 10th March 2008, 12:35 Quote
Yes il admit it but I have ALWAYS bought the games I enjoyed. I no longer download any except to try them when theres no demo. If i enjoy them i have no problem parting with my cash to buy them. If not i deleted them off.

To be honest since a young age I have bcome tired of buying a game on its marketing and also bias reviews only to get it home and realise its a pile of **** (yes EA im looking at you and your rehashes)

Its just way too expensive to be falling into this pit especially when vendors dont allow returns on software. The last game i bought was Frontlines Fuel of War and god i wish i had pirated it but no...i took the risk and i paid the price. I sold it the same night on ebay at a loss even though it was brand new literally.

Iv bought the great games - Call of duty 4, Gears of War, Crysis, The orange box and im waiting for more to come along. If i like a game iv downloaded i will buy it, i have to anyway because the only games im interested in are FPS and RTS games that require cdkeys to play online which is what im always after - the online experience.
I dont play single player games anymore or extremely rarely, they have waaaay too limited appeal yet online play with others is way more gratifying. I played BF2142 for donkeys and im living of Gears of War online even despite its buggy as hell and its a nightmere finding and joining low ping games but i love its gameplay and am very happy i bought it and will do so if the game itself is good.

Single player games are always going to suffer from piracy, developers can counter by allowing online play, throwing in legitimate cdkeys that are needed and a sophisticated ranking system and your guarunteed sales .
Firehed 10th March 2008, 14:10 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by [USRF]Obiwan
There is one programme that basicly is "the godfather of protection" going wrong. For over a decade Steinberg's Cubase is using custom protection code to protect from being copied. The 'protection' code is throughoutly woven into the source of the programme on all levels. From basic mouse-movement to note-on registration. The protection works together with a USB dongle, where all the checksums are sitting. Although the usb keystick is a lot better then the printerport dongle from years ago. It still causes all kinds of trouble. Mostly intevering with other audio plugin usb keys.

There are 2 mayor flaws in this woven protection Steinberg is using; 1) without all the protection code, Cubase would have worked 20 times faster and would crash less then now. 2) The protection has always been cracked. Infact it is one of the most 'prestige cracking targets' from crackers around the world. There are only two loosers here, one being Steinberg that still thinks protection works, the second being the users who are working with a slow sometimes crashing expensive program.

One example from my own experience. When I had Cubase VST with a printer dongle. I never could get it to work without crashing. I have contacted steinberg many times. They even send me a new printer dongle. But in the end I had better luck with the cracked version. And with me there where many professional producers around the world, that uses the cracked version instead of their (getting dust on the shelf) original version.
That's my whole thing with copy protection. First and foremost, I always buy a copy of software if I'm using it in a for-profit manner (which hardly applies to games, but that's beside the point) - I see using pirate software for profit as no better than selling pirate movies. But there's still any number of things that I'll run a cracked version of so that I don't have to fuss with activation and other such nonsense. Anything that requires a hardware dongle is going to be immediately returned and swapped for a competing product - that takes it to a level way beyond irritating. I can't speak for CuBase, but I saw similar problems for some video editing software at a place I once worked.
theevilelephant 10th March 2008, 15:25 Quote
I voted 'Yes, but I often buy the game too. Really.' but in truth ive only pirated a game once.

Isnt there an easy way to avoid this sort of thing? Force people to pay for accounts? its much harder to pirate WOW because you have a pay for an account, sure u can play on someone elses account but at the end of the day the developer still gets money.....

Now i appriciate that i probably wouldnt be to happy if i had to do this,but i think it would work pretty well
Veles 10th March 2008, 16:02 Quote
Unless it's a very good MMO with a good influx of new content, subscriptions are bad, very bad.
knuck 10th March 2008, 16:15 Quote
err , misvoted ... I voted yes , but for pc only when i should have voted that I often buy games. It's impossible to play online with a cracked game anyway
theevilelephant 10th March 2008, 21:22 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by Veles
Unless it's a very good MMO with a good influx of new content, subscriptions are bad, very bad.

im not necessarily talking about subscriptions im saying make people pay for an account not the disk. Without an account the disk is worthless... like i said i actually dont think i would like this system but i do think it would be more effective than the current system at preventing piracy.
boiled_elephant 11th March 2008, 11:42 Quote
*Gasp* My nemesis!
theevilelephant 11th March 2008, 15:51 Quote
rofl - im watching youuuuu....
Amon 11th March 2008, 19:29 Quote
Keep those bit torrents running, everybody. I need more seeders!
Firehed 11th March 2008, 20:46 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by BlueTrin
Yeah I can see that being a problem depending of the hard drive space. You are supposed to be able to re-ask them free redownloads if you need them, and I think you are given them back over time. I can't remember where I read this though so I may be wrong.
Forget that. One of the things I really love about Steam is that I can re-download the game on to my new machine at any time without worrying about copy protection and serial keys and such.

As it is, I thought Bioshock was terrible so I'm not exactly bothered, but I'm not going to buy ANY game that needs to be activated, much less do it through Steam.
Boogle 20th March 2008, 18:04 Quote
Quote:
It was a fairly quick-and-dirty crack job, and in fact, it missed a lot of the copy-protection that was in the game. One of the copy-protection routines was keyed off the quest system, for example. You could start the game just fine, but when the quest triggered, it would do a security check, and dump you out if you had a pirated copy. There was another one in the streaming routine. So, it's a couple of days before release, and I start seeing people on the forums complaining about how buggy the game is, how it crashes all the time. A lot of people are talking about how it crashes right when you come out of the first cave. Yeah, that's right. There was a security check there.

I don't condone piracy, and I certainly don't pirate myself (although when I was much younger I did download the odd game) - but that's just a foolish protection system to put in place. If a game picks up it's a pirate copy it should SAY SO. If you have just crashes then users will do what users do - bad mouth the product. If the anti-piracy tech fails for whatever reason and pisses off a legit customer, then that's signing your own death warrant.

Piracy is bad, but I think the way MS handle it is very good. They tell you its a pirate copy, they don't give you nice freebies, but ultimately it does kind of work. This ensures the pirates don't go on rampages on the net, but also will slowly guilt people into getting a legit copy. At least in my opinion :) Of course the protection has been cracked, but those kinds of sales will be lost no matter what. You just need to stop casual 'here borrow my disc' piracy.

I liked Titan Quest :) Had the fancy metal case version, and had no crashes myself.
metarinka 21st March 2008, 18:49 Quote
I pirated C&C3 that's the most recent game I pirated and that was a good year ago, didn't beat the game but at the time didn't have the disposable income to waste $50 on entertainment.

I will say that I pirate commercial class software. I actually legitametly own a copy of photoshop 6.0 but I pirated up to c2. As an individual I can't afford $200-1000 for commercial software when I just want to fiddle around in say 3d studio max or Reason or Cubase. My rule there is that if it's something I used for a commercial application or as a serious hobby I buy a legit copy, and as mentioned they generally work better.

there's no real excuse but I guess that's how the apple falls, never played TQ
BlueTrin 30th April 2008, 04:03 Quote
Even Epic has let down the PC market =/

Now we get consoles ports without even a proper menu ...
steveo_mcg 30th April 2008, 11:13 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by impar
Greetings!

Crytek on Crysis piracy and future releases:

Could this just be that Crysis didn't sell to theirestimates, could this be that people didn't buy because its EA publishing (i know i thought twice) could it be that its so damn heavy on hardware (rumours still hurt sales) i could continue but there are dozens of reasons why people may not have bought this game.
Come back in a few years when the current consoles are looking like pooh compared to the PC and we'll see much larger sales in the PC market. Consoles are at their peak in their cycle but will soon start to plummet x360 is already on a budget slope.

I'm not going to start another argument with you impar since your opinion and mine are polar opposites.
MikeTitan 30th April 2008, 11:51 Quote
I used to pirate stuff all the time until I had money not too. Honestly that was my only reason in the first place, and it wasn't usually pirating but usually getting a copy from a friend who had purchased it. However once I had the money I took to buying copies of games and I rather am glad I did. I would also point out another factor in this is due to the gaming industry and how hard it is to get established if all of your hard work is getting stolen.

The more I think about it, the more I believe people who think downloading it is ok just lack integrity for doing the right thing.

- You are taking something, that you didn't purchase (stealing)
- It doesn't matter if you weren't going to buy it anyway. That argument is like saying, well everyone in Gamestop left the store and turned the camera's off, and I picked up a copy of the Sims 2. Now we all know I'd never buy this game, but since it's there I thought what the hell and grabbed it.
- If you can't afford it? Don't buy it. Only have a $20 budget? Buy a $20 game, no games you want? Don't buy anything, save up that money for a $30 or $40 game.

For the Game companies:

- Demo's. -- doesn't need to relate to the story, but just give a game play demo and make sure it's not choppy. Doesn't need to be long, but just make it entertaining and make it show what the game can offer.
- Not enough $$ for a demo (small game companies) get a video of gameplay, some good screen caps, good descriptions. If you can't afford a demo then the burden is on your to get people to want to buy your game. (not that they should be stealing it, just buying it as oppose to not buying it.)
- Make sure the game is ready when it's released. (Not sure any game has done this for a while, but yeah.)
- Kick hardware companies in the balls to get their act together.
Baz 30th April 2008, 12:52 Quote
Mike - it's all fine saying that, but Cyrsis had a fine, replayable demo. And it was still pirated heavily. However, one has to wonder how many of those pirates were in China/Asia/Russia and so wouldnt have bought the game anyway. Are these all European/US users?
oasked 30th April 2008, 13:06 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by Baz
owever, one has to wonder how many of those pirates were in China/Asia/Russia and so wouldnt have bought the game anyway.

Exactly. In those countries its almost impossible to buy the real thing, even if you wanted to. Although, having said that, games like Crysis and COD4 wouldn't exactly sell well there anyway - they're not interested for the most part, in that type of game.
Kylevdm 30th April 2008, 13:23 Quote
I own the games but then create isos or if i cant make them then i download cos i hate disks
Firehed 30th April 2008, 19:28 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kylevdm
I own the games but then create isos or if i cant make them then i download cos i hate disks
Well that's not piracy, that's just making a backup of something you own. I rip all of my games to ISOs and then throw them on my fileserver (and have a text file of my serials) so I can stash the disks away and to hell with physical media. As an added bonus, things install faster since reading from the hard drive is a lot faster than reading from a CD/DVD.
BlueTrin 1st May 2008, 01:00 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by Firehed
Forget that. One of the things I really love about Steam is that I can re-download the game on to my new machine at any time without worrying about copy protection and serial keys and such.

As it is, I thought Bioshock was terrible so I'm not exactly bothered, but I'm not going to buy ANY game that needs to be activated, much less do it through Steam.

You are given free tokens to redownload very frequently so usually you will never need them, I just read them that if you do it too often you could run out of tokens, but from what I read on their forums you can get them by just sending an email to confirm that you would like to have some extras ...
K 1st May 2008, 01:33 Quote
The worst console for this was the Dreamcast for me. Basically, a close friend at work got a whole bunch of enticing pirated Japanese games and a boot disc to play them with. It got me into loads of awesome Japanese games and such and I still bought proper PAL games, but there were so many US and UK game copies my mate just didn't want and would off-load them onto me. Honestly, who'd say no? At my last day at work with him he gave me all 40 odd of his pirated games after he sold his DC. I still have them. I have like three copies of Crazy Taxi (including a legit one yo). I never really felt too bad about having the Jap version of Jet Set Radio when I would go and buy the PAL one anyways... But hey.

The DS is pretty bad too. I purchased an M3 slot 1 card as soon as they were released to get my SCUMM on... But then the full games were just too tantalising. Since the DS has no proper demos and the games can be totally overpriced for what they are, I just cracked. I feel pretty **** about it but then I just try and remember that I play on my DS very rarely and they sell 2 billion of them every week in Japan.
MikeTitan 1st May 2008, 10:42 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by K
The worst console for this was the Dreamcast for me. Basically, a close friend at work got a whole bunch of enticing pirated Japanese games and a boot disc to play them with. It got me into loads of awesome Japanese games and such and I still bought proper PAL games, but there were so many US and UK game copies my mate just didn't want and would off-load them onto me. Honestly, who'd say no? At my last day at work with him he gave me all 40 odd of his pirated games after he sold his DC. I still have them. I have like three copies of Crazy Taxi (including a legit one yo). I never really felt too bad about having the Jap version of Jet Set Radio when I would go and buy the PAL one anyways... But hey.

The DS is pretty bad too. I purchased an M3 slot 1 card as soon as they were released to get my SCUMM on... But then the full games were just too tantalising. Since the DS has no proper demos and the games can be totally overpriced for what they are, I just cracked. I feel pretty **** about it but then I just try and remember that I play on my DS very rarely and they sell 2 billion of them every week in Japan.

I've definitely felt that for the DS, I can't say that I don't feel the need at times when stuff is just so easy to get, but I am rather proud that at least recently (the last year+) that I've been "sober" =p so to speak.

As far as piracy in foreign countries like or continents (looks at Asia) it's almost impossible to control. I can see why they do it, but I don't suppose it makes it any better.
cliffski 19th May 2008, 23:21 Quote
In asia its a self fulfilling problem. they are only ensuring western devs will not make games aimed at them, because they wont sell. The same thing happens with age groups. Nobody really tries to make PC games aimed at the digg / slashdot demographic, because that demographic tends to pirate everything. This is why devs like casual games and the Sims, because the people who play those games tend to buy them.
Pirating your fave games is the #1 most effective way to kill off the genres you like.
Neogumbercules 20th May 2008, 03:17 Quote
At this point there is no reason to even discuss what to do to stop piracy in its current form. It's too huge and too accessible for people. The question is what to do in light of piracy. This is what industries always do. It's like counterfeit money. A country will make money and people will find a way to copy it. Sure they take some action to fight the counterfeits, but it's an uphill battle that isn't worth while. The best solution is to make newer, harder to counterfeit money. To stay one step ahead of the criminals. The same logic can be applied to PC games. Instead of fighting the pirates, just outsmart them. When they crack the verification, fix that. Just keep making it harder and harder. Piracy will probably never die, but if the process of pirating becomes a big pain in the ass, normal people are less likely to want to do it. Right now all you have to do is DL the iso, copy a cracked .exe file, and you're golden. Anyone can do that. That's why everyone does do it. Online verification and services like Steam are the answer. Even if it means minor inconvenience to the legitimate user. Companies getting the riot-act from their paying customers is a lot better than watching the entire PC gaming industry collapse around them because they are too afraid to piss off people to make a positive change.
scq 20th May 2008, 04:11 Quote
I think in regards to PC piracy, systems like WoW or Steam work very well. Of course, you'll always have the cracked copies running hacked servers, but the bulk of people want to play online with their friends and others. If my friend had a copy of WoW, and I wanted to go explore with him, I certainly would buy a copy.

I think Steam is great. Of course, there's the issue of their overloaded servers and sometimes slow download speeds, but once the game is up and running, it's amazing. I can access my account anywhere and play my games anywhere with an Internet connection, and never have to worry about breaking or losing discs. I know most companies don't have the ability to do this, but make games cheaper. Orange Box is an extreme, but $50 for 5 acclaimed titles - I'd buy that (and I did, even though I've played through HL2 and HL2e1 before). Compare that with Call of Duty 4. Sure. Great game. But it was universally acknowledged as too short, and it's still like $60. Another great thing is how Valve keeps updating their multiplayer games. TF2 is a great example. New weapons, new maps, new play modes are constantly added. You'd be a fool not to pay $20 for the game to play and get an old buggy version to play on LAN or cracked servers. Also, the ease of getting a game off Steam is amazing. Just buy online and download. No going to the store, lining up, making sure it's in stock. Running around town to find it. It's doing for for games what iTunes did for music. While neither will kill piracy, it will definetly curb it some.

Hong Kong has an interesting way to curb some music/movie piracy. They know it's prevalent, and they know it's unstoppable (every system with a lock will be cracked), so they made it more attractive to buy legit copies by including special bonuses like pamphlets, awesome packaging, extra content etc.

I'm afraid though, that PC gaming is dying. While piracy is to be blamed on people, it's also the companies to blame for not making their games more attractive to buy (because piracy is inevitable). Even I'll admit I'd get games to try out without paying, just because I'm not sure if I want to play them or not (oh, and that because I don't want to spend $60 on a game I won't even be able to sit through). However, having said that, I am fully willing to pay for games I believe I enjoy. I hope companies realize this, and make better, cheaper games, and stop wasting time and money on these convoluted anti-piracy mechanisms (like that proposed periodic phone home thing with limited installs). If anything, antics like that make me want to just pirate the game more and play it with a crack. At least that way, I won't get bothered by it. It's an insult to honest gamers who pay good money for their products.
Veles 20th May 2008, 13:37 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by Neogumbercules
At this point there is no reason to even discuss what to do to stop piracy in its current form. It's too huge and too accessible for people. The question is what to do in light of piracy. This is what industries always do. It's like counterfeit money. A country will make money and people will find a way to copy it. Sure they take some action to fight the counterfeits, but it's an uphill battle that isn't worth while. The best solution is to make newer, harder to counterfeit money. To stay one step ahead of the criminals. The same logic can be applied to PC games. Instead of fighting the pirates, just outsmart them. When they crack the verification, fix that. Just keep making it harder and harder. Piracy will probably never die, but if the process of pirating becomes a big pain in the ass, normal people are less likely to want to do it. Right now all you have to do is DL the iso, copy a cracked .exe file, and you're golden. Anyone can do that. That's why everyone does do it. Online verification and services like Steam are the answer. Even if it means minor inconvenience to the legitimate user. Companies getting the riot-act from their paying customers is a lot better than watching the entire PC gaming industry collapse around them because they are too afraid to piss off people to make a positive change.

It's a bit different for games though, counterfit money destroys entire economies if it is left unchecked, they have to stop it, and increasing the anti-counterfeit protection does nothing to the average citizen.

With piracy, it is inevitable, and trying to stop it pisses off the people who buy the game more than it pisses off the pirates. They always find a way around it, the crackers enjoy finding a way around it. As Stardock has shown, no DRM doesn't mean no sales, I really doubt Stardock would have gained many more sales had it put some awful DRM system in place.

Steam isn't the answer either, you can still pirate steam games, it's not hard at all, SecureROM isn't the answer, that was cracked after 7 days. Yeah it gets a bit more complicated to crack it, but they often come with a readme to tell the user exactly how to do it, it's not hard at all. The average Joe Bob is as unlikely to copy a game with no copy protection as the are one with copy protection.
Firehed 20th May 2008, 17:18 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by Veles
It's a bit different for games though, counterfit money destroys entire economies if it is left unchecked, they have to stop it, and increasing the anti-counterfeit protection does nothing to the average citizen.

With piracy, it is inevitable, and trying to stop it pisses off the people who buy the game more than it pisses off the pirates. They always find a way around it, the crackers enjoy finding a way around it. As Stardock has shown, no DRM doesn't mean no sales, I really doubt Stardock would have gained many more sales had it put some awful DRM system in place.

Steam isn't the answer either, you can still pirate steam games, it's not hard at all, SecureROM isn't the answer, that was cracked after 7 days. Yeah it gets a bit more complicated to crack it, but they often come with a readme to tell the user exactly how to do it, it's not hard at all. The average Joe Bob is as unlikely to copy a game with no copy protection as the are one with copy protection.
Not entirely. Counterfeit money will destroy the economy, but unchecked piracy could also destroy the entire gaming economy if left unchecked. Having said that, you're also right in that DRM functions in a way that's fundamentally wrong and unhelpful, as compared to anti-counterfeit measures that are on currency anyways.

Perhaps crackers enjoy the challenge, but using cracks is often quite annoying. Generally less so than dealing with the DRM they're defeating which is a major problem for the publishers, but that's the whole problem.

So long as piracy is as easy as buying a copy of the game, it will exist. So long as DRM exists, cracking a copy (paid for or not) will be as easy as dealing with the DRM. As such, within a certain audience, DRM is actaully fueling piracy (or at least cracking, though they frequently go hand in hand). Some people will never pay, and some people will always pay. No sense worrying about either of those groups.
Veles 20th May 2008, 17:47 Quote
I would say that the majority of the pirates are in the would never pay group, most people I know who pirate games see no point in paying for games when they can get it for free. So that segment that DRM tries to convince a purchase instead of a download is very small, and this is why Stardock games still sell well, remarkably well seeing as they get very little attention from the press.

Unchecked piracy wouldn't destroy the gaming economy, comparing counterfeit money to casual game piracy is apples to oranges, software piracy is essentially left unchecked, even windows activation couldn't stop people pirating it, if an average user wants to, they can quite easily pirate anything they like without too much effort. So long as someone knows they can get software/games for free, they will find out how to do it if they want it for free. DRM is basically a knee high fence, some are a little higher, but they're all easy to climb over.
boiled_elephant 20th May 2008, 23:10 Quote
In that sense, it's more a test of personal integrity than anything else. The availability of pirate copies of everything is the proverbial forbidden fruit on the tree, testing who'll be weak enough to pick it.

And damn, I sure was. I'll probably grow up into a well-adjusted member of society and recompense the industry for my ways, or something, provided the police don't confiscate my drives and arrest me first.

Also, an ethical/moral dilemna on culpability: if I feel no guilt, am I guilty?
I have this troubling notion that you can't call someone's actions Wrong if they don't believe their actions are wrong. I mean, if someone doesn't think they're committing a crime, they haven't, surely?
impar 21st May 2008, 01:25 Quote
Greetings!
Quote:
Originally Posted by boiled_elephant
I mean, if someone doesn't think they're committing a crime, they haven't, surely?
Ignorantia legis neminem excusat
BlueTrin 21st May 2008, 01:31 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by Firehed
Not entirely. Counterfeit money will destroy the economy, but unchecked piracy could also destroy the entire gaming economy if left unchecked. Having said that, you're also right in that DRM functions in a way that's fundamentally wrong and unhelpful, as compared to anti-counterfeit measures that are on currency anyways.

Perhaps crackers enjoy the challenge, but using cracks is often quite annoying. Generally less so than dealing with the DRM they're defeating which is a major problem for the publishers, but that's the whole problem.

So long as piracy is as easy as buying a copy of the game, it will exist. So long as DRM exists, cracking a copy (paid for or not) will be as easy as dealing with the DRM. As such, within a certain audience, DRM is actaully fueling piracy (or at least cracking, though they frequently go hand in hand). Some people will never pay, and some people will always pay. No sense worrying about either of those groups.


I am sorry to highly disagree with you, getting a crack for any game takes me probably less time than to look for the serial, store it on an email (just in case I lost it), and I do not have to put the DVD in the drive to play the game.

I systematically install cracks for all the games I own so I can play them with a double click ... Many games (including recent ones) had issues with some DVD drives. I recently bought GoW (it was only £10), and the installation is a total nightmare, not only you had to go back to Windows to register a "Games for Windows" account on a lousy website, but the update would crash and launch the ASUS BIOS updater (WTH !!!). After the update it would not recognize anymore the DVD (I had to check the logs to see that). So in the end I had to crack my own legit copy to play it and spent 1 hour total to solve all the issues so I could play the game.

NOTE: I do buy games (just in case you didn't really read my post)
PhenomRed 21st May 2008, 02:00 Quote
too many times have i spent $80 on a game and its turned out to be not very good. i don't like having to download 1.5GB demos, cause my internet sucks. i occasionally pirate a game, and if i like it i buy it. there are some games (Ravenshield) that i own 3 copies of, one for each of my computers for when me and my friends lan.

and FYI, i haven't pirated any games in a while
fathazza 21st May 2008, 03:23 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by BlueTrin
gears of war stuff

my legit copy of gears of war only worked properly when i cracked it too. Idiotic situation tbh
BlueTrin 21st May 2008, 19:51 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by fathazza
my legit copy of gears of war only worked properly when i cracked it too. Idiotic situation tbh

The worse part is when I asked for help in the official forums and got flamed by somebody who supposed that I was playing the cracked version and that my computer was riddled with spywares ... Very funny when you worked your whole life in IT ...

I am almost at the point where I will only buy blockbusters and steam games in addition to console games ... It's not worth the trouble (IMHO) to buy games on PC to get this kind of support ...
boiled_elephant 26th May 2008, 02:42 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by BlueTrin
I am sorry to highly disagree with you

No you're not :D
BlueTrin 26th May 2008, 03:11 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by boiled_elephant
No you're not :D

I misread what he typed : )
Tulatin 27th June 2008, 21:21 Quote
I'll say it again for the sake of the thread. Piracy != theft. You're an idiot if you think so. When somebody downloads a game, a movie, some music, or some porn, nothing is lost. Oh no, they might have purchased it! The talking heads shriek. Yeah, bullshit. It's just as much theft as watching a newly released DVD through a neighbor's window. My only qualm comes from selling pirate material; you're profiting from the work of two parties - the developers, and the cracker.
Silver51 27th June 2008, 23:23 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tulatin
I'll say it again for the sake of the thread. Piracy != theft. You're an idiot if you think so. When somebody downloads a game, a movie, some music, or some porn, nothing is lost. Oh no, they might have purchased it! The talking heads shriek. Yeah, bullshit. It's just as much theft as watching a newly released DVD through a neighbor's window. My only qualm comes from selling pirate material; you're profiting from the work of two parties - the developers, and the cracker.

Huh?

As far as software is concerned you don't pay for the material, you pay for the licence to use that material. Acquiring software/media through accepted legal channels means paying for the right to use or view content in a specific environment. Hence the EULA for software or copyright agreements at the beginning of a movie. Home agreements will usually cover viewing or use of media by other people in your home environment (or neighbours at the window) but will exclude other areas of use, such as rental or public showing.

By not paying for those rights, you use content illegally. The rest is arguing semantics.
Tulatin 27th June 2008, 23:25 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by Silver51
Huh?

As far as software is concerned you don't pay for the material, you pay for the licence to use that material. Acquiring software/media through accepted legal channels means paying for the right to use or view content in a specific environment. Hence the EULA for software or copyright agreements at the beginning of a movie. Home agreements will usually cover viewing or use of media by other people in your home environment (or neighbours at the window) but will exclude other areas of use, such as rental or public showing.

By not paying for those rights, you use content illegally. The rest is arguing semantics.

In it's nature, it's the same as theft - that being using or procuring something for free. But in reality, it isn't. You aren't causing any loss to any individual or company via the act of piracy; unless of course you download the application from their servers, then crack it, in which case you've cost them bandwidth. Otherwise, how do you define piracy as theft when there is no loss involved?

The best analogy to cut this one is that it's the same thing as photocopying pages from a book, recording something from TV, or ripping a song from the radio. Is there any loss to these three? Maybe in the photocopying if you're not paying for the copies, but otherwise, nil.
Silver51 27th June 2008, 23:31 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tulatin
In it's nature, it's the same as theft - that being using or procuring something for free. But in reality, it isn't. You aren't causing any loss to any individual or company via the act of piracy; unless of course you download the application from their servers, then crack it, in which case you've cost them bandwidth. Otherwise, how do you define piracy as theft when there is no loss involved?

The licence agreement (EULA) that you agree to when installing software is a legal document. You're breaking the agreement by not paying for the software or media, which is illegal.
fathazza 27th June 2008, 23:31 Quote
theft isnt about loss tho....

its about treating someone elses property as your own, you dont have to actually take it...
Tulatin 27th June 2008, 23:34 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by Silver51
The licence agreement (EULA) that you agree to when installing software is a legal document. You're breaking the agreement by not paying for the software or media, which is illegal.

This is provided that the EULA is still provided when the software is downloaded. If it's not, you aren't agreeing to it, therefore it's technically not illegal. But I digress. That's not the point here.

The ideal behind software and media is that you don't own ****. You own a little plastic disk. You can't even say you own a copy. No, some company is so high and mighty to dictate you have the right to use it. So, if I buy a painting then, I have the right to view it? Alas.

I have to head off to work now, where I'll see 3-5 examples of actual theft. As in, where a product is taken, and loss or inconvenience is incurred to the store.
Silver51 27th June 2008, 23:49 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tulatin
This is provided that the EULA is still provided when the software is downloaded. If it's not, you aren't agreeing to it, therefore it's technically not illegal. But I digress. That's not the point here.

The ideal behind software and media is that you don't own ****. You own a little plastic disk. You can't even say you own a copy. No, some company is so high and mighty to dictate you have the right to use it. So, if I buy a painting then, I have the right to view it? Alas.

I have to head off to work now, where I'll see 3-5 examples of actual theft. As in, where a product is taken, and loss or inconvenience is incurred to the store.

If the software has been modified beyond its original state and is missing its EULA, then the entire package is illegal.

To tell you the truth, I'm not worried about who does and doesn't copy disks. I'm more concerned about publishers not getting sufficient returns and being forced out of the business. I like using my PC as a gaming platform, but it seems like more and more developers are bypassing the PC in favour of consoles and citing piracy as the issue.
impar 28th June 2008, 04:03 Quote
Greetings!
Quote:
Originally Posted by Silver51
I'm more concerned about publishers not getting sufficient returns and being forced out of the business.
Or implementing stricter DRM, like Mass Effect, Spore and Alone in the Dark limited installations.
DougEdey 28th June 2008, 04:19 Quote
I agree with Silver51 100%, it's not about "theft" it's about the principal, you have to think of yourself as an investor, if you don't put financial investment in you won't get the rewards of better games.
wolfticket 28th June 2008, 05:52 Quote
I don't pirate any games, but I do use no-cd/dvd patches for all my games.
Does that mean I can expect a visit from the feds?
I don't even have a permanent optical drive on my main system, so it's not a case of inserting disks each time, it's a case of digging out my usb dvd drive.
Having rights tied to optical media is ridiculous in this day and age.
Hazer 30th June 2008, 04:35 Quote
I shall publically state I have never pirated a game (PC or otherwise) ever.

Now lets get down to the dirty truth. The reason why Titan Quest went downhill was because it was a marginal game in a tight genre. They got exactly what they should have expected for sales. Most people who 'Pirate' games, never had any intention of buying it. I dont want to hear that crap about 'taste-testing' or 'poor demos'. All of you are a very minnute part of the whole 'Piracy Conspiracy" as publishers are whining about. Micheal Fitch is trying to blame the games failure on something other than the cold hard truth. The game was not going to get any more money than what it did. Also, he lost by implemnting such horrid tactics of anti-piracy that it screwed the buying enduser. On top of that, his company spent too much money on customer support for pirated copies.

Lets break this down: The game was not going to sell more copies IF people did not pirate it. People who steal games do it because they can. Plain and simple. There are no morals. If it is that easy, you can bet people will do it. So lets rule them out as a potential for buying the game to begin with. Trust me. They probably sold a hundred TIMES more copies of this game than Quake. Why is that? There were alot fewer computers in peoples homes. I can tell you right now that the people who have never purchased a computer game due to piracy is because they never would have laid the cash for the computer in the first place. They would be spending money on a home stereo or something else. But since piracy became so damn easy (thanks to P2P), more people started getting home computers. Trust me. Most of the people who are part of the Bit-tech community have always had a computer since 8086 days. We have only known days of owning computers. But in recent years more poeple have begun owning computers for the internet. Now it is uncommon to find a household that doesnt own at least one computer. The computer business exploded and now there is 10 times more people who surf the net. And what do these people find? Torrent and P2P! They never cared about getting a high-end video card or dual core. All they wanted was to surf porn and blog. But you throw free s**t (although illegal) in thier face, guess what? They are going to take it. When was the last time you found a 20 dollar bill on the ground and made even the slightest attempt at finding the owner? It would be rediculous to do so. Send out fliers or an add? Wait there for hours and see if someone approaches you "have you seen a twenty on the ground here?". Its ludicrous. So the people who rampantly pirate games never had any intention of purchasing it to begin with. They are not avid gamers who tweak systems and try to make the game work regardless of quality. 5 to 1. I am willing to bet 4 would never have bought the game if there was a protection that worked in the first place. Lets be real here. One thing the publishers never tell you is what the market should have beared in the first place. I want to see the numbers like so:
From the early 80's to now, what is the percentage of computer owners to games purchased. Now, project that to today. Lets assume that a trend has been established through the 30 years of the home computer. Now, compare that trend to what the publishers say they have lost due to piracy. I would bet my left nut it goes something like this:
"Since the mid 80's to today, the actual percentage of computer users to PC games sales is 30%. Meaning that only 3 out of 10 poeple who own a computer actually buys a game since the dawn of PC gaming. The other 70% use thier computers for internet or professional service at home. This trend has been steady until the late 90's (dawn of P2P Napster and clones). Sales have dropped to 20%. It is now 2008. Sales are now 15%. But the percentage of computer owners has increased by 10 times since the late 90s. Also, average number of games released per year has grown by ten times. Gaming now has 'geners' There are people who only play FPS. There are others who only play MMORPG. So sales dropped to 15%, of what is now ten times more of a user base than what could have been projected. Realistically, game sales ahve increased by %150."

People buy computers for the internet more than 'just games'. It is bull**** to say that the projection should follow how many available people there are to sell to, rahter than the average percentage of people who purchase PC for games to begin with.

The second thing this company did wrong was ever attempt anti-piracy tactics. It is so annoying that these publishers even once imagine that anti-piracy tactics work at all. Fitch screwed the pooch by incorporating that crap into the game. I understand that the little leprechans who sell anti-piracy schemes to publishers (publishers dont have time to code this crap themselves, they actually buy it from other companies) kept wispering statistics into Fitch's ear "if you make it hard for the pirates, a few more will buy the game instead, he he". Fitch knew the game would get priated. The only reason to institute these protections is to garner a small amount more from people who would rather lay down cash for a little less hastle. That was his motivation. But what ended up happening instead? In his own friggin words: It hurt the end user who actually bought the game. I have two purchased copies of Half-life 2. I would give Valve another $100 if they could get rid of Steam as a required part of the game. I also like Steam for playing Counter-strike. As a consumer, I feel that having this damn utility running on my computer constantly talking to the Steam database is slap in the face. It is a way of saying that I cannot be trusted and owning this software comes at a price, a virtual doggie-collar to enjoy my most favorite game. ***holes. If Fitch put away the damn protections all together, he would have been better off. He would have saved the money paying employees/other companies of wasting time to implement the protections (that do no good anyway) and he would have gotten better reviews and first impressions.
Quote:
So, before the game even comes out, we've got people bad-mouthing it because their pirated copies crash, even though a legitimate copy won't. We took a lot of **** on this, completely undeserved mind you. How many people decided to pick up the pirated version because it had this reputation and they didn't want to risk buying something that didn't work? Talk about your self-fulfilling prophecy.
Dumb-***. If there were no protections in the first place, people would have raved about your software being as great as you imagine it is. Your own stupid fault for making the game worse with protections than burdening your actual consumer base with software that probably was buggy DUE TOTHE PROTECTION CODE. Fitch would never admit that little tidbit. Its easier to blame piracy.

Third: If the protections were never coded in, he would not have lost so much money on customer support. He would not have to service the supposed '5 to 1' people who stole the game as he puts it if the 'ripped' version was no different than the real one. Yet another executive decision he made.....wrong.

By now, if your still reading this rant you are thinkning I am a supporter of piracy. Nope. Stealing is stealing. There once was a time where only the elite knew anything about copying and downloading. Napster killed all of that. The term Piracy did not exist until P2P became public and the media money makers began to notice. Thier sales never went down mind you. But upon hearing that computer users could actually listen to music without giving $25 per CD to them, well that just put a needle in thier rear. Now, there are millions being spent on fast acting legislation to 'protect' music and video industry profits rather than on health-care, unemployment, and school systems.

I get pissed about hypocracy. Fitch made bad decisions because he felt the need to 'protect' what he thought was his 'piece of the pie'. If he had just ignored the downloaders, he himself with his own satements would have justified his companies success. He got bad first impressions from buggy ripped versions and game crashes linked to protection schemes. He also spent too much time supporting his own buggy software (buggy from the ripped version). He should have simply put a serial number on each disc. Customer service provided by that serial number. The serial number is not even used to install the game. It is just there for customer service. Fitch would have spent 5 times less on support (in his own words) and would have been the simplest of things to implement. Idiot.

One final note: I am an avid gamer. I play FPS games online. I try to invest in decent hardware frequently enough to keep pace with the hardware race (I cant afford $1000 on video hardware, I get the $200 on sale and play yester-months games). Most of my friends own PCs. They also own consoles. When we get together, we play on the console. When we go home, I am the only one who plays CounterStrike till 1AM. They all watch movies or work on thier cars or what-not. So, saying that a game sells 10-to1 on consoles vs PCs is a statistic that 80% of poeple playing a game pirated it is such a load of crap. I cannot exactly say why consoles are more popular for the average person, but they are. I am one of the 10% who preffer the PC over the console so I cannot give a good perspective as to why. It just is.
Bracketology 30th June 2008, 04:51 Quote
I admit, i did often pirate games, but i don't really play games that much anymore, so it doesn't matter to me now. I only pirated games that were old, and non-buyable anymore. I like the old game such as roller coaster tycoon, and sincei have broken that game twice, I downloaded it =\
kerbeh 30th June 2008, 07:02 Quote
I notice crytek has gone a similar way at least in blaming sales for lacklustre sales, I dont mind protection like steam although I would prefer an off-line version however copy prtection like sucureom or whatever was used on splinter cell goes to far. I should not have copy protection telling me what I can and cant have installed on my system!

I very occasionally pirate games, and I try to have morals about it. I pirated one game this year and I owuld have bought it in a heartbeat however the developers decided to double the price of the game for no good reason. I choose to vote with my cash and not support that game.

I also have a habit of pirating games so I can play them when they are released then I buy them 6 months later when they get the local release. Im not giving excuses just explanations. If all things where equal I would gladly buy all my games.

Edit: To dig my grave deeper I did used to pirate old console games but since the virtual console came along Ive had no need to. Again with arguably fair and easy to accses channels I have to problem with buying games.
Smegwarrior 30th June 2008, 16:47 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hazer
The term Piracy did not exist until P2P became public and the media money makers began to notice. Thier sales never went down mind you. But upon hearing that computer users could actually listen to music without giving $25 per CD to them, well that just put a needle in thier rear. Now, there are millions being spent on fast acting legislation to 'protect' music and video industry profits rather than on health-care, unemployment, and school systems.


I cannot exactly say why consoles are more popular for the average person, but they are. I am one of the 10% who preffer the PC over the console so I cannot give a good perspective as to why. It just is.

Some good points there but the word 'piracy' and 'pirates' to denote anyone copying movies, music and games has only been used by the media since when you said but before that (all the way back to the 1970's) the word 'piracy' and 'pirates' when talking about copying was referring to the people making money from selling copies and not the people buying the copies.

I was watching a re-run of Countdown (1970's music show from Australia) where they had a segment on pirating music cassettes and records and all the attempts to stop it along with the claims that piracy would be stopped and that it meant the consumer had to 'pay a little extra to be protected from illegal copies that may not have the same quality as the original', well the cost sure did go up but so did the amount of piracy.


People that prefer consoles over PC do so for 1 reason that was stated by a mate of mine when I asked why he bought an Xbox360 instead of a better PC than the old Pentium 3 he has:

He didn't want the hassle of learning about parts selection, selecting parts, building it, updating software and drivers or updating hardware to keep up with the latest games, the console is easier and he doesn't need the latest hardware to play games on it is what he said.

I did try and point out the obvious, he could ask me about what hardware to get or to build it for him, there are more games available on PC and they are better quality, you don't need the latest hardware unless you want bigger epeen or want to run every game on the highest resolution, frame rate and all settings on full and that the Xbox360 he has is only being run at 720 x 576i as he has no HDTV whereas the PC would run at a resolution of at least 1024 x 768p (he has a 17" monitor) and even if he had all game settings on low it would still be far better than the Xbox360 graphics he is getting, there are more online players for PC games, PC's last longer than the Xbox360 (never seen a PC RROD), he could use it for internet and watch Youtube video's at their proper frame rate instead of the slideshow he gets now(<5 fps).

He still insisted that the Xbox360 was better even though it was making strange noises, several months later he got sick of it not reading disks (just out of warranty) and went and bought a new Xbox360 Elite saying it is better and the problems have been fixed, imagine the look on his face the other week when I told him about the reports on Bit-Tech about the Xbox360 Elite still having the RROD problem.

He has spent over AU$1500 on both the consoles and even more just on games, he could have bought a decent gaming PC for AU$1500 and could have bought games for a bit cheaper than what you pay for console games or had more choice in the second hand game market.
He could have bought a good PC for the AU$700 he recently spent on buying the Xbox360 Elite.
supaste 2nd July 2008, 15:03 Quote
I often find myself pirating really old games e.g Fallout. I have a question also, if I was to buy this brand new from a shop would it even support the developers because I know for a fact that the dev team of FO fired or the compoany went bankrupt or something.
knuck 2nd July 2008, 19:52 Quote
I have about 50 cracked games on my pc but i feel good about it because they are all games I would have never bought anyway (just wanted to tried them) and over the last 12 months I have bought more games than ever in my life before (cod4, orange box, ut3 , trackmania united, audiosurf)
CardJoe 2nd July 2008, 20:47 Quote
If you'd never buy them then why go through the effort to download them all, keep them all, feel good about them all and then talk openly about it here? Surely you should feel good about doing something goog, not about doing something bad.
superpooper 2nd July 2008, 21:52 Quote
My philosophy.

If I'd have bought it, I have it.

If I wouldn't have bought it... I'd download it.

No company is losing out from me. Quite the opposite. I can afford to have more than one console if I pirate some games.
knuck 2nd July 2008, 21:55 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by CardJoe
If you'd never buy them then why go through the effort to download them all, keep them all, feel good about them all and then talk openly about it here? Surely you should feel good about doing something goog, not about doing something bad.

To be honest I feel good about the fact that I now buy games instead of downloading them :). The reason why i kept the old games is because well... I keep everything. I still have emails from 2000 and if my hard drive wouldn't have died in 2003, I would have all my msn received files for the past 8 years haha

My previous post wasn't really well constructed at all (like most of my post unfortunately...not that i don't try :D)
Toka 3rd July 2008, 09:41 Quote
I pirate sony material with wild abandon whilst weeping over the games (EQ2) that SoE have managed to ruin [probably nsfw - removed]

Games I can remember pirating

WiC (played once, I cant kill americans so not playing it any more :) )
SupCom
Dungeon Siege 2 (what Im playing at the mo!!!)
Far Cry (I pirated this after I bought it, as I broke the disks)
CM08
Lords of Chaos (are emulators pirating?)

Of these, games I payed for

SupCom
Far Cry
CM08

Stuff I play/ed without 'try before you buy'

medieval total accountancy
rome total accountancy
medieval 2 total accountancy
D3
Bioshock
EQ2
CMXX (up to about 06)
Pirates
Civ (pretty much all of them)
Dungeon Siege (I love them, shut up....)
Probably one or 2 more that I have forgotten.
Toka 3rd July 2008, 09:45 Quote
Oh, I should add

Absolutley every game on my PC is cracked so that I dont have to spend 5 mins hunting round the living room for the fecking disks whenever I fancy a quick blast. I actually refuse to buy I game if it will require me to insert disks each time.
samuraizero 4th July 2008, 18:16 Quote
i used to when i was younger cos everyone else did was a way of borrowing games to, but i stopped as i grew up ... but really tempted by my mates chipped wii
[PUNK] crompers 6th July 2008, 16:08 Quote
i download some games, and i feel bad about it :(

does that makes it ok? probably not
thomascirca 11th July 2008, 21:25 Quote
I download a ton of games... but it's mostly to see if I'll like them or not. I do buy a lot of games, but still, if I'm going to drop $50/60 on a game (yes, I do live in the US, don't hold it against me) it'd better be worth it. For instance, I obtained Bioshock, played it, was amazed, and proceeded to buy it. It seems like games are worse... I want to be sure I get the good ones and not the bad ones.

Console piracy would be more widespread if it was as easy as PC piracy. Remember the dreamcast?
Gooey_GUI 12th July 2008, 01:37 Quote
When I voted, just 52% of people did not pirate PC games.

Sad
boiled_elephant 13th July 2008, 18:18 Quote
I still pirate. My last one was bioshock. I don't even bother to defend my actions, because none of the arguments in either direction make any sense to me. I'm honestly not aware of any inherent good or bad in what I'm doing, I just do it. You say sociopathy, I say pragmatism.
On the practical side, I'm glad I pirated bioshock, because it gets boring after an hour.
/Delete.
/Save some money.
chrisb2e9 13th July 2008, 18:58 Quote
I went out and bought mass effect. I dont often buy games but I needed something new to play before fallout and spore come out. Wish I had pirated it though, I get random errors that say the game wont start because of a security error. But if I keep trying to launch the game it will eventually play. and I can only play for about 30 minutes at a time because it will crash eventually.
Why should I pay for something that doesn't work right?
Its like buying a pizza and some of the toppings are rotten. you can take back the pizza but you can take back poor software.
i'm not saying that one should pirate software but its tempting when you buy something and it doesn't work.
mansueto 13th July 2008, 21:00 Quote
You can't really stop piracy... You go to a flee market and you see games for 20 bucks instead of 70 and you realize how much you can save. My mom has always bought retail dvd's and then she realized she could dvd's for cheap, but they were always bad quality, so out of about 750 - 800 DVD's, only about 20 are pirated... As for consoles, i did have my ps1 console modded by a cousin of mine (not my idea, i was like 8 at the time, parents payed since they realized they could save a lot)

Today, i would never risk getting my ps3 or wii modded, and i already have the games i want to play. I find the best way for gaming is to rent it, and if it's good, then go buy it. I used to waste a lot of money just buying games without reading reviews or trying them out. Its the best way, as i thought assassins creed was great (played at a friends house) and bought it, but after a couple of hours i got sick of it. I coulda saved like 60 bucks if i had rented it...
imkeller 14th July 2008, 14:19 Quote
I used to always download games since I never knew if they were going to work on my pos computer, and wasn't going to waste £30 on them if they didn't. If I didn't download them, then I wouldn't buy them instead, so the devs don't loose money.

But sometimes I'm forced to pay in order for online to work
impar 21st October 2008, 19:16 Quote
Greetings!

Anyone else considering returning to the Dark Side because of DRMed games?
Cthippo 21st October 2008, 20:02 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by impar
Anyone else considering returning to the Dark Side because of DRMed games?

It is getting increasingly difficult to justify paying for games, though not just because of DRM. Fortunatly I have yet to have problems with DRM, but that's because I buy mostly Valve games that run over Steam.
mansueto 21st October 2008, 21:52 Quote
Steam sell their games at reasonable prices, and they offer promotions and sales and bundles which is very user friendly, and simple. I have used a couple pirated programs in the past, and I do use one now to get videos off youtube, but I don't redistribute or tell others about it, i just keep it to myself so I can have entertainment on my ipod since it's a pain to find a half decent free program to get videos off youtube, so I resorted to a cracked program that does it all for me, though it was only like $20 to buy it, me being 17, I have no debit / credit card, and my parent's aren't exactly ecstatic about me making purchases online, I resorted to finding a cracked copy. Maybe if it was harder to find pirated copies of things it would be a lot easier to prevent it, but in today's world, that's almost impossible.
LeMaltor 21st October 2008, 22:31 Quote
I find staggered releases and torrents leaked before release date to be the most tempting things if I were to pirate a game, knowing GTA:IV will be out in the USA days before europe, and even sooner than that on torrents really annoys me, same with far cry 2, there were torrents yesterday but I thought I will be good and ordered it today from play.com and they quickly sent me a dispatchment email, hopefully it will be here thursday morning :D
modgodtanvir 21st October 2008, 22:32 Quote
Steam is a pretty good service which I tun to when I want to play some hard-to-get-your-hands-on old school classics. Otherwise, I usually buy from the shops.

There was a time when I downloaded like nobody's business. But when I found that these 7GB .iso's and annoying .rar were never actually getting played, only clogging up HDD space, I stopped and deleted them all. Besides, most game torrents have XX seeders, and XXXXXXXX leechers....

I believe the term is 'growing up'.

These days, I have little time for gaming, so I pick my games carefully, and buy them from GAME or Gamestation. (<- It is possible to mention 'game' too many times in a sentence :p). I just prefer the solidarity of a game which is guaranteed to work, in beautifully printed disks and packaging, and instruction manuals, and the mental satisfaction that perhaps the creators of this game benefited from my purchase, and can make some more.

And how do I know which games to buy? Well, COD4, I bought after playing the demo. Spore, I bought after playing on a friend's. And most other stuff, I wait until Joe gives his verdict ;) (Or I go on IGN or Gamespot :p)

I must admit though, I have downloaded a lot of ROMS over the years, though I suppose that isn't so bad since the games are out of production and if I were to buy them second hand, it wouldn't be of any profit to the creator...

Can anyone recommend a good NES frontend?
Firehed 22nd October 2008, 02:46 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by impar
Greetings!

Anyone else considering returning to the Dark Side because of DRMed games?
I'm avoiding all games from all publishers with DRM that goes beyond a CD-key. I simply don't have the will, desire, or time to continue fighting with copy protection. Previously I'd wait for a crack to come out before getting them to avoid the DRM but I just can't be bothered anymore.
books 22nd October 2008, 07:47 Quote
I download most games and then I buy them if they are any good. For example:
1) Spore - I downloaded, deleted after less than a day.
2) Stalker Clear Sky - Downloaded, the MAIN QUEST! broke just a couple of hours in to the game and I couldn't continue. That was with the latest patch. Deleted and never looked back.
3) Mass Effect - I played it one evening. It was OK but it's just not really my kind of thing. Several weeks went by and I actually forgot I had it installed and I got carried away playing some other games. I realised I forgot the story too so I just deleted it.
4) World of Goo - played it for 10 minutes and absolutely loved it. Bought it online. Kept playing it till it arrived, then deleted it and I installed the one I bought and started again from scratch. Well worth it.
5) Crysis Warhead - I read reviews and just bought it right away because I loved the first game, and everyone online said it is more of the same but better in a way. So I knew I would like it, and it was cheap.
6) Flatout Ultimate Carnage - one of the best games ever. I loved Flatout2 so I just wanted to see that they hadn't done anything silly. It was great so I played the downloaded version on the Friday night and I bought the game from a shop on the Saturday.

So basically out of 6 games, I bought 3, and the other 3 I tried, but I would never buy them, and it was nice that I could check before I wasted my money on them. I am dead against piracy because if you enjoy something that people worked hard and invested money in making, then it's only fair that you pay your tiny share. So I like to be fair and that's why I buy everything I play for more than a few hours or whatever. It also helps that I can get things so cheap from places like Play.com, and I also have a shop just 5 minutes from where I live that sells games, so I can drive there and pick it up immediately. It is a bit more expensive than buying online but if I am desperate for something, that wins every time because once I decide I want it, I can drive to the shop and have it installed on my PC within about half an hour. Usually I just buy from Play or Amazon though.

p.s: I have over 80 games in my collection :) Imagine how big that would be if I bought ones I didn't like :O and how much money I would have wasted.
kingred 22nd October 2008, 16:37 Quote
YOU WOULDNT DOWNLOAD A CAR



I only pirate when there's no demo available, or i cant get the game through usual means.
Fod 22nd October 2008, 16:55 Quote
MTbX1aMajow
steveo_mcg 22nd October 2008, 16:56 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by kingred
YOU WOULDNT DOWNLOAD A CAR

BUT THE CAR COMPANIES LET YOU SELL YOUR CAR! ;)

And more importantly its your bloody car!
specofdust 22nd October 2008, 17:06 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by kingred
YOU WOULDNT DOWNLOAD A CARI only pirate when there's no demo available, or i cant get the game through usual means.

Wouldn't I?
fathazza 22nd October 2008, 17:19 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by specofdust
Wouldn't I?

No you wouldn't
specofdust 22nd October 2008, 17:44 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by fathazza
No you wouldn't

Well either the question is stupid, or the question is asking "if you could, you wouldn't pirate a car". So either way my answer in the form of another question is on equal footing with the original question.

Lovin' it.
[PUNK] crompers 22nd October 2008, 17:58 Quote
i was recently fined £500.00 by atari for downloading a pre-release version of test drive unlimited

needless to say my pirating days are over (ive hung the cutlass over the fire YARRRRRR)
LeMaltor 22nd October 2008, 19:38 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by crompers
i was recently fined £500.00 by atari for downloading a pre-release version of test drive unlimited

needless to say my pirating days are over (ive hung the cutlass over the fire YARRRRRR)

Were you really, or did you just pay up to one of those scam companies demanding money?
[PUNK] crompers 22nd October 2008, 20:02 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by LeMaltor
Were you really, or did you just pay up to one of those scam companies demanding money?

nope this was real, my solicitor advised i pay it rather than get dragged to the high court
Smegwarrior 23rd October 2008, 15:12 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by crompers
nope this was real, my solicitor advised i pay it rather than get dragged to the high court
If it was Davenport Lyons that sent you a letter demanding you pay up then you got suckered.
Veles 23rd October 2008, 17:06 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by crompers
nope this was real, my solicitor advised i pay it rather than get dragged to the high court

You don't go to the high court for civil matters, all you needed to do was send them an angry letter back telling them to kindly **** off as they don't actually have any real proof that you personally downloaded the game. I had a similar letter through, we ignored it, and had no more hassle (although they're now taking people to court who do that).
Quote:
Originally Posted by impar
Anyone else considering returning to the Dark Side because of DRMed games?

No, but I'm seriously considering not buying RA3, even if it does have Tim Curry in it.
kiratime 24th October 2008, 05:19 Quote
Im gona buy crysis when i get a new rig i so love that game but when the crytek president says they wont release exclusive crysis stuff for pc i immediately removed my pirated crysis!!! anyway i cant ply it 5fps is too dam low even though im on a reasonable level into the game......
[PUNK] crompers 24th October 2008, 12:44 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by Smegwarrior
If it was Davenport Lyons that sent you a letter demanding you pay up then you got suckered.

no it wasn't

i worked in the law industry for four years and therefore have plenty of solicitor friends, a couple of people looked at this for me and they all agreed to just pay it and be done with the matter

remember this was a PRE-RELEASE game, and thats the premise they stuffed me on.

atari are doing this quite a lot now so if you do download games just be careful
Whalemeister 24th October 2008, 16:26 Quote
What gets me here is the general belief that pirating of PC games if much more rife than piracy of console games.

However the amount of xbox 360 games available to pirate seems to greatly outweigh pc titles and usually have greater numbers of seeders/leaches and the xbox 360 games are always up on the torrent sites before the PC games even when they have the same release dates.

So looking at this how can the developers justify not developing for PC using the piracy argument??
Hazer 25th October 2008, 01:44 Quote
Quote:
What gets me here is the general belief that pirating of PC games if much more rife than piracy of console games.

However the amount of xbox 360 games available to pirate seems to greatly outweigh pc titles and usually have greater numbers of seeders/leaches and the xbox 360 games are always up on the torrent sites before the PC games even when they have the same release dates.

So looking at this how can the developers justify not developing for PC using the piracy argument??

If they code it for PC, they have to come up with the anti-piracy code and dev also.

If they make console games, they dont have to invest time into the anti-piracy code since it is built into the hardware.

What they are really saying is they can get more money since thats what they really care about. I dont mean to say that that should not be thier goal. But it is starting to annoy me that developers view the numbers as "what we believe we deserve" vs "OMG, look how good we did!". Valve never bitched about what they got for HL 1.
modgodtanvir 25th October 2008, 02:08 Quote
Is there a site which flags the torrents being targeted by the law? Just out of curiosity...
mushky 26th October 2008, 03:53 Quote
Soooo tempted to get back into downloading Xbox games right now >:(
nitrous9200 26th October 2008, 04:21 Quote
Not games, but music and movies/TV shows (Top Gear for example, I have no other way to watch it except the cut down 2 year old episodes on BBC America). I have a link on my phone's homepage that goes to an MP3 search, I download my songs on the go. But I really should be paying for them, and perhaps I'll buy legal copies...someday.
modgodtanvir 27th October 2008, 11:27 Quote
In fact, I just stumbled across another valid reason to try downloading a game - compatibility. You could either go to the shops and spend £40 on a game which the spec sheets say you can run on your computer, but it turns out you can't and you end up giving it the three finger salute (CTRL+ALT_DEL). This means that having opened the plastic, you can't get a full refund on it, and the second hand market is full of DRM controversy, so you can't get a good price on it when you sell it off. Or you spend £200 on a new graphics card.

Or you just download the torrent to see if it works on your PC. If so, you go and buy it. If not, then delete the bugger and be done with it. AFAIK, demo's won't be as strenuous on your system as the full game...
johnmustrule 4th November 2008, 09:21 Quote
First of all this guy missed a very big point!

Games are to ****ing exspensive, yeah he could sell 100K more copies for increased profit or...

HE COULD SELL 1,000,000 MORE COPIES IF HE WOULD SLASH THE PRICE IN HALF!!! this is corporate whiny greed all over again. Why does Mcdonalds sell more with every passing year? Because they cut prices, it pretty simple buisness strategy. It's like if Bit-tech tried to subscribe me to their news, I wouldn't f'n read it or I'd find some otherway of getting it, god knows how many adds they've added. On that note, if you ever do those adds where you hover over words and little adverts pop up, I will never read this site again. With that in mind, I love this site!

Anyways there's also DRM and tech support:

Punkbuster and gamercomereade have ruined more than one game for me and EA wont even post a ****ing phone number on their website! I have to scroll through a useless faq before they'll let me send an email, of course I have to be a member to do this also.

Then you get to Valve.. steam is great and all but they absolutely will not help people who've been hacked, they absolutely wont. It's happended to several friends of mine, and all of them have had to re-buy their boxed games, which they offered as proof of purchase, but no "**** them" valve says.
Kúsař 4th November 2008, 13:44 Quote
You won't believe what happend to us today - we're building PC's here and one of our customer returned to us PC with dead DVD drive - it couldn't read anything. This was however the second time and it's less than one month since we received it with dead DVD drive. Customer also included Assassin's Creed game disc(original, czech version) so I immediately checked what copy protection it's using - safedisc 4. Safedisc 4 is OK. I thought to myself "hell, there must be something else killing it. It's weird two brand new DVD drives dies within one month(samsung SH S223F)". After a brief check I noticed more game shortcuts on desktop, so I checked them one by one...'till I opened directory of game called "Dead to Rights" - "Frontend.dll". Starforce! Call me a pirate, starforce guys, but one more time our customer return us PC with dead drive, I'll warn him that it's starforce "copy protection" killing his dvd drive and avoid playing games which are using starforce copy protection. So we swapped dvd-drive again for free.

However, this is not first time I encountered situation like this - friend gave to my brother a game called Boiling Point some time ago because he couldn't play it(weak PC). It's starforce protected game - I remember as my brother had to reboot his PC to finish installation of starforce copy protection software. After reboot it took hours and soon his dvd drive was absolutely unable to read anything - blank discs. At that time I blamed my brother for killing dvd drive. I think I shall apologize to my brother and point my finger at someone else...

Poor dvd drives. May your lasers shine a heavenly light and your motors spin forever in heaven, we miss you...
boiled_elephant 4th November 2008, 18:47 Quote
That's quite alarming.

I'm moving towards the same weird middle ground that most people seem to be in. I'm not very proud of piracy and feel there's something wrong with it, but I also loathe DRM and will pirate to avoid it.
impar 4th November 2008, 23:57 Quote
Greetings!
Quote:
Originally Posted by boiled_elephant
... but I also loathe DRM and will pirate to avoid it.
I am so tempted to follow you...
chrisb2e9 5th November 2008, 01:28 Quote
I had a thought the other day. games are typically pirated by using some form of crack. Now its not hard for the developer to check torrent sites and see what the crack is.
Here is my solution, and I know it would require a lot of work from developers and video card developers, and would not work 100% of the time. but anyway,

Have the game developers send the crack information to the video card makers. when new drivers come out, and people update with them(maybe forced updating), have the drivers check the games for evidence of the crack. if the crack is found. the card sets on fire and kills the user.
Ok maybe not the last part, but it could refuse to display, or force the minimum resolution to show while the game is running.
again, it would be a lot of work for the people involved, and if someone doesn't update the video card drivers(again, maybe forced updating?) it wont work either. but its a better solution than drm as it would not hurt the people who pay for games.

flame away if you dont like it.
dogdude16 5th November 2008, 04:02 Quote
Hey, I just wanted your opinion on this. Is it pirating and/or wrong if i legally rent I movie and then after watching it rip the iso to my computer. Some of the movies I burned I never watched again but I put some on my ipod.

As for pirating games, I don't, I even went out and bought another copy of dawn of war after I lost the serial key.
The only game i have pirated before was serious sam, lets be honest, there is no way I'm going to pay for that game, I'v only played it a few times.

I just wanted your thoughts the whole movie thing.

EDIT: i know the movie thing is pirating but i just wanted your thoughts on that.
Firehed 5th November 2008, 04:41 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by chrisb2e9
I had a thought the other day. games are typically pirated by using some form of crack. Now its not hard for the developer to check torrent sites and see what the crack is.
Here is my solution, and I know it would require a lot of work from developers and video card developers, and would not work 100% of the time. but anyway,

Have the game developers send the crack information to the video card makers. when new drivers come out, and people update with them(maybe forced updating), have the drivers check the games for evidence of the crack. if the crack is found. the card sets on fire and kills the user.
Ok maybe not the last part, but it could refuse to display, or force the minimum resolution to show while the game is running.
again, it would be a lot of work for the people involved, and if someone doesn't update the video card drivers(again, maybe forced updating?) it wont work either. but its a better solution than drm as it would not hurt the people who pay for games.

flame away if you dont like it.
That will not only stop be buying the DRM-encrusted games, but also the video cards.

It also wouldn't work. See: HDCP.
chrisb2e9 5th November 2008, 05:34 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by dogdude16
Hey, I just wanted your opinion on this.
I'm 95% sure that it is illlegal. the other 5% is because i'm tired.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Firehed
That will not only stop be buying the DRM-encrusted games, but also the video cards.

It also wouldn't work. See: HDCP.


confused, what about hdcp?

why would you stop buying video cards? no card, no games. unless you like freecell.
its not like it would ever effect someone who legally buys games. what I hate now is that games are coming out with limited installs. I know that when you break it down, it should never have an effect on the average user. but it still bothers me. a simple check when the game starts for a known crack wouldn't take a measurable amount of time. It would only hurt the people who pirate games.
And the reason I picked video drivers is because eventually, you have to update them. try going a year without updating your video drivers. sure you could pirate a game, not update, play for a while, then update. and then you cant play the older games. unless you are actually willing to go through the trouble of uninstalling your drivers, rolling back to an older version, and then playing the game again. only to have to update again to play newer games.
It makes a lot of hassle for people who download games, but none for people who dont.

and yes there would be other troubles, and maybe there are better ways to do it. but really I think its a sound idea. The basic idea here is to find something that people do, on a regular basis, and use it to combat piracy.
Kúsař 5th November 2008, 15:30 Quote
Chrisb2e9 - "cracked game" means that copy protection code has been removed from game executable. And most probably, there would always be a way to fake it so that drivers/software cannot recognize if it's original or cracked exe.

There's better way to fight piracy than plaguing games with DRM, product activations or killing DVD drives. In fact, some of these protection methods encourages piracy or decreases sales. If only some publishers offered better prices. Only fanboys are buying their favourite games for high prices. After 3 months most of the fanboys have their game bought and finished while the rest is waiting for price to drop to reasonable level. And there are people who pirate the game but "legalize" it once the price has dropped.
For example - I'm still waiting for EA to drop prices of Crysis in my country. 66$ is far too much for me to buy it(checked several sources, this is the lowest price). 25$ would be OK for me. On the other hand I wouldn't mind spending 75$ on special edition of Oblivion or Fallout 3, since these games are very big with plenty of replayability and different gamming experiences.
Some publishers understand this - like CD Projekt. Some do not(or don't want)

Or maybe developers should release alpha version of their game so that pirates enjoy plenty of BSoDs, crashes, problems...at least they would help to test it :D
chrisb2e9 5th November 2008, 15:50 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kúsař
Chrisb2e9 - "cracked game" means that copy protection code has been removed from game executable. And most probably, there would always be a way to fake it so that drivers/software cannot recognize if it's original or cracked exe.

There's better way to fight piracy than plaguing games with DRM, product activations or killing DVD drives.

My idea would get rid of the current forms of drm/product activations.
Again, I am suggesting that what they should do to fight piracy is to use a system that would never have an effect on someone who bought the game.
And if the game exe is altered, that’s what my idea would look for. if something else is altered, that would be looked for instead.


It takes little effort to figure out what the crack does to a game to let it run. If that information is passed on to video card driver makers, then they can input that information into the drivers to instruct the card not to run. Like I said before, a black screen, force the min resolution, etc.

Again this wouldn't have to be video card drivers. Maybe microsoft could put it out with their security patches. but have it embedded within so that you can't pick one or the other. that way if you want your pc safe from becoming a bot/infected/whatever, you have to update it.

And if the people who release cracks for games make a new one, then its just a simple matter of taking that crack, putting it in the next set of drivers/updates, and so on.
The point here is to make it a hassle to pirate games. Its too easy right now which is a big reason why people do it. If it becomes annoying enough, people will take the easier road and just buy the game.
steveo_mcg 5th November 2008, 15:58 Quote
Your post advocates a

(x) technical () legislative (x) market-based ( ) vigilante

approach to fighting piracy. Your idea will not work. Here is why it won't work. (One or more of the following may apply to your particular idea, and it may have other flaws which used to vary from state to state before a bad federal law was passed.)

( ) Spammers can easily use it to harvest email addresses
( ) Mailing lists and other legitimate email uses would be affected
( ) No one will be able to find the guy or collect the money
( ) It is defenseless against brute force attacks
( ) It will stop spam for two weeks and then we'll be stuck with it
( ) Users of email will not put up with it
(x) Microsoft will not put up with it
( ) The police will not put up with it
(x) Requires too much cooperation from nVidia/AMD
(x) Requires immediate total cooperation from everybody at once
( ) Many email users cannot afford to lose business or alienate potential employers
( ) Spammers don't care about invalid addresses in their lists
( ) Anyone could anonymously destroy anyone else's career or business

Specifically, your plan fails to account for

(x) Laws expressly prohibiting it
(x) Lack of centrally controlling authority for games
(x) Legal back legislation of foreign countries
( ) Ease of searching tiny alphanumeric address space of all email addresses
( ) Asshats
(x) Jurisdictional problems
(x) Unpopularity of weird new drm
( ) Public reluctance to accept weird new forms of money
( ) Huge existing software investment in SMTP
( ) Susceptibility of protocols other than SMTP to attack
(x) Willingness of users to install OS patches
(x) Armies of worm riddled broadband-connected Windows boxes
(x) Eternal arms race involved in all drm approaches
( ) Extreme profitability of spam
( ) Joe jobs and/or identity theft
(x) Technically illiterate politicians
(x) Extreme stupidity on the part of people who do business with EA
(x) Dishonesty on the part of companies themselves
(x) Bandwidth costs that are escalated by pushing down patches
( ) Outlook

and the following philosophical objections may also apply:

(x) Ideas similar to yours are easy to come up with, yet none have ever
been shown practical (hdcp)
( ) Any scheme based on opt-out is unacceptable
( ) SMTP headers should not be the subject of legislation
(x) Blacklists suck
(x) Whitelists suck
( ) We should be able to talk about Viagra without being censored
( ) Countermeasures should not involve wire fraud or credit card fraud
( ) Countermeasures should not involve sabotage of public networks
( ) Countermeasures must work if phased in gradually
( ) Sending email should be free
(x) Why should we have to trust you and your servers?
(x) Incompatiblity with open source or open source licenses
(x) Feel-good measures do nothing to solve the problem
( ) Temporary/one-time email addresses are cumbersome
( ) I don't want the government reading my email
( ) Killing them that way is not slow and painful enough

Furthermore, this is what I think about you:

( ) Sorry dude, but I don't think it would work.
(x) This is a stupid idea, and you're a stupid person for suggesting it. :D
( ) Nice try, assh0le! I'm going to find out where you live and burn your house down!

Sorry had to be done. :p
chrisb2e9 5th November 2008, 16:30 Quote
whatever
steveo_mcg 5th November 2008, 16:39 Quote
Fair enough take it that way. :'(

In all seriousness, GFX card manufacturers have absolutely no interest in combating piracy it doesn't affect their business and one might argue it benefits them. So why should they be involved.

Next, you're running a pirate game you know the next update might break the crack, two options update/don't update do you honestly think folk are stupid? Course not they'll wait a week for the new crack to get round the latest patch and off we go again, are we seeing the circle? Plus what does MS care, its windows dept is separate from its games dept as it should remain else it risks getting in more trouble from the regulators.

Also hardware based drm, basically breaking the system before the user gets to see it for example not allowing a picture to be displayed because you detect some black listed software is implemented in hdcp and has failed there. Next your black list is subject to failure same as any other, how would you feel if your new game was broken because your burning software was some how black listed.

Need i go on?
Quote:

The point here is to make it a hassle to pirate games. Its too easy right now which is a big reason why people do it. If it becomes annoying enough, people will take the easier road and just buy the game.
Point is you'll never inconvenience the pirates they can side step any copy prevention software or drm. If the system is playable is breakable and the only people who have to jump through the hoops are the PAYING customers.
Shepps 5th November 2008, 17:50 Quote
If people can crack windows activation etc which im sure isn't laid out on a plate to find (unlike gfx card drivers...) then i cant see chris's idea working at all, ever. At the end of the day, what ever counter measures are employed there will always be a way round it.

Jim Gordon: What about escalation?
Batman: Escalation?
Jim Gordon: We start carrying semi-automatics, they buy automatics. We start wearing Kevlar, they buy armor-piercing rounds.
Batman: And?

I guess they have to keep trying! :D
LeMaltor 5th November 2008, 18:19 Quote
nVidia and ATI would never release their drivers in a timely enough fashion for it too work too :p
boiled_elephant 5th November 2008, 18:26 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shepps
Jim Gordon: What about escalation?
Batman: Escalation?
Jim Gordon: We start carrying semi-automatics, they buy automatics. We start wearing Kevlar, they buy armor-piercing rounds.
Batman: And?

Yes, that sums up how I feel about piracy. It's not agreeable, but it's totally inevitable. If you keep trying to eradicate it everything just gets worse for everyone (read: DRM). What to do? Well, they're obliged to keep trying to defend their intellectual property, of course, and authorities are obliged to keep trying to enforce the law, but it's all for naught really. It's an insoluble problem if you look at it pragmatically, which makes all this moral posturing redundant.
Hazer 6th November 2008, 01:40 Quote
In all honesty, the software companies should just stop with the protections altogether. Everything to date has been cracked. If the software companies just outright ignored the piracy, they couls save themselves investment and development money and save the end-user the headaches involved with activations and disc protections.

Instead, the software companies make better software, and this will in turn reward them with more sales. Most people who have the intention of purchasing games will eventually purchase software they feel 'earned thier money'.

As a side-note, the software should be registerable: Each game/program comes with a unique serial number. This serial number is only used to register your name with the software company for the sole purpose of customer support if ever needed. No registration, no customer support. The software companies save money on support also.



You know, I would be willing to bet that if there was ever a piece of software that was completely 'unhackable', it would fail miserably at making a profit. At least hacked software benefits from word-of-mouth advertising (arguably the best advertising possible).
Kúsař 6th November 2008, 09:43 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hazer
You know, I would be willing to bet that if there was ever a piece of software that was completely 'unhackable', it would fail miserably at making a profit. At least hacked software benefits from word-of-mouth advertising (arguably the best advertising possible).

It won't affect sales, it's about quality. Even then - hardcore pirates wouldn't buy it anyway. Definitely not for high price. They'll rather find another game to play.

And it's pitty these people don't realize someone had to work hardly to make that game. It's unfortunate publishers don't realize pirates will not buy game for a high price and especially with annoying DRM included. And yet more unfortunate is that developers(low profit -> closure) & honest gamers(DRM = problems) are caught in publishers(DRM) vs. pirates(lower profit) crossfire...
n3mo 10th November 2008, 01:24 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kúsař
It won't affect sales, it's about quality. Even then - hardcore pirates wouldn't buy it anyway. Definitely not for high price. They'll rather find another game to play.

It will affect. Why do you think Microsoft has such a crappy product activation system, which was cracked before each version of Windows entered RTM? Market penetration - the magic words.

Nobody would buy unhackable program, and it would be soon cracked. Remember, people who crack games/progz are often more skilled than devs themselves.

I'm starting to think that developing different ways of making paying customers lifes harder (DRM) took more money that it actually saved - considering that lots of people get so annoyed with crappy DRMs that they start downloading games instead - I personally know some that did.
C-Sniper 10th November 2008, 06:29 Quote
I pirates games, play a bit of them, if i like ti toss the download and go buy it, if i don't, toss the download and go back tot the games i have.
boiled_elephant 10th November 2008, 17:29 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by C-Sniper
I pirates games, play a bit of them, if i like ti toss the download and go buy it, if i don't, toss the download and go back tot the games i have.

Same here. I pirated Crysis, Bioshock and Assassin's Creed, and only liked the first one. So In a couple of weeks I'm buying Crysis.

Good game = my moneyz
Bad game = no moneyz

The way I see it, this middle ground treats the developers most fairly, rewarding good games rather than big names and aggressive advertising and hype (which were the only reasons we bought assassin's creed, let's face it :().
Amon 11th November 2008, 00:34 Quote
I need more seeders for Fallout 3. Thanks.
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