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Call of Duty 4 piracy is rampant

Call of Duty 4 piracy is rampant

Comments from those inside Activision have indicated that piracy may pose a problem for COD4

Piracy has always been a big problem for computer games and, while our console brethren still have the capacity to play illegal games, the practice is radically less popular than on PCs.

According to a developer blog written by Robert Bowling, Community Relations Manager at Infinity Ward, Call of Duty 4: Modern Warfare is a game which is suffering especially at the hands of game pirates.

"On another PC related note, we pulled some disturbing numbers this past week about the amount of PC players currently playing Multiplayer (which was fantastic). What wasn't fantastic was the percentage of those numbers who were playing on stolen copies of the game on stolen / cracked CD keys of pirated copies (and that was only people playing online)," said Robert.

"[I'm] not sure if I can share the exact numbers or percentage of PC players with you, but I'll check and see; if I can I'll update with them. As the amount of people who pirate PC games is astounding. It blows me away at the amount of people willing to steal games (or anything) simply because it's not physical or it's on the safety of the internet to do."

Call of Duty 4 isn't the only game that has suffered because of pirates this year - both Crysis and Unreal Tournament 3 have had disappointing sales, which publishers chalk up to a mixture of piracy and steep system requirements.

So, in light of these comments, we put it to you; is it ever OK to pirate a game? Have you ever done it and, if so, how often? Let us know your thoughts in the forums.

155 Comments

Discuss in the forums Reply
steveo_mcg 17th January 2008, 12:05 Quote
Not wanting to defend pirating games but surely if there are high number of people playing on line then it benefits the people who have played since there will always be people online to play against. I'm sure we've all had a good muliti-player game die on us because there was a limited community to play with.
Jamie 17th January 2008, 12:13 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by steveo_mcg
Not wanting to defend pirating games but surely if there are high number of people playing on line then it benefits the people who have played since there will always be people online to play against. I'm sure we've all had a good muliti-player game die on us because there was a limited community to play with.

At the end of the day you are right, but when a business looks at developing a game, especially multi-playform, they will be looking closely at the return on investment. If gamers don't buy the game they can't cover the development and production cost. If it gets so bad that the PC market is so small they'll eventually just drop that platform all together or they'll look at other ways of making the cost back -- in game ads perhaps.

PC gamers that don't pay for gamers are just shooting themselves in the foot.
naokaji 17th January 2008, 12:18 Quote
if they want to stop piracy of games then they need to switch their stupid copy portections and cd key system to accounts like mmorpgs have them.

noone has ever managed to play wow or eq2 with a version they didnt pay for. they could even go for the cc payment to make sure that you are who you claim during registering the account. instead of a monthly fee they could drop the retail price to some very low amount and then charge rest upon account creation.

only one person can login with the same account at once (so you dont "lend" it to a friend and then both play with only one purchase) + whitelist of valid cdkeys (to stop keygens and if someone generates a valid key the person who bought it simply scans the receipt, sends it to the developers, they ban the one that created the key with a keygen) + identity verrification (noones going to comit a crime if he has to leave his full name and address at the crimescene).
that would surely take care of the problem.

anyway, cod4 is a really good game, definitly worth paying what they ask for.
plagio 17th January 2008, 12:26 Quote
yeah, but than you need to be connected to the internet even to play single player games.
Shadow_101 17th January 2008, 12:27 Quote
The last game I cracked was age of empires 2, I don’t know how many years ago. I found that hassle enough, I would have thought by now copy protection would have improved vastly particularly in multiplayer.
will. 17th January 2008, 12:30 Quote
I've downloaded 3 games in my life.

The Sims
Need For Speed Carbon
Soldier Of Fortune

I treated those downloads more like demo's. I hated the Sims, so un-installed it. Loved messing around with NFS Carbon so bought it. Thought that Soldier Of Fortune was a pile of wank, but bought it anyway because i thought it was hilarious.

My flatmate downloaded Crysis and CoD4 the other day, so while he was out I un-installed them. They both have very decent demo's available (and I already have them both!) so the "I wanted to try them out" argument didn't stand up.

But am I a hypocrite for saying don't download games, when I'll happily download a film. I do buy DVD's and go to the cinema if it's a good (or what I hope to be good) film.
teamtd11 17th January 2008, 12:32 Quote
I will quite oftern use a no cd crack on a game i allready own, Its annoying having to find boxes to then put the disk in, and then play for a hour befour moving to another game.

Supreme Commander and steam are good friends of mine, in the way that i dont need the disk's to play, so now if a game is comming out, i always hope that there will be a steam version aswell.
frontline 17th January 2008, 12:45 Quote
A bit of a strange article really, as they don't seem to have noticed that more than one person can play multiplayer (from the same ip address for sure) without having to use the game CD. Don't know whether this was intentional or just an oversight on their part. I havent tried it myself but know of at least a couple of instances where 2 people in one household are playing multiplayer off one copy of the game.
naokaji 17th January 2008, 12:48 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by plagio
yeah, but than you need to be connected to the internet even to play single player games.

yep, but i prefer to be required to have a constant internet connection over game developers threatening to stop making pc games....
lewchenko 17th January 2008, 12:51 Quote
I know people who have pirated games. They are thieves. Simple as that.

They do it because its ..

a) easy [torrent of a cracked version]
b) free and
c) risk of getting caught = nil

They are scum bags who dont understand that it will eventually kill the industry. Sometimes they make up excuses (like it wasnt worth £35 so why should they pay it... or that they are gonna buy it anyway so its a trial).. All really lame lies.

Yet when a company tries to make it hard to pirate a game (Bioshock for example), the whole PC community goes up in arms about its protection and reinstall limits.

I personally think that ALL games must be registered before being able to be played. Your serial number should be unique to you and secured against a central identification process, like bank details. You should be able to install as many times as you want, providing you ID yourself to the registration server each time.

I dont care, or buy the argument that people shouldnt have to activate games to play single player. Almost everyone who plays games has the internet, so its not an issue.

Ignore the people who moan. The people who made call of duty 4 did a terrible job of protecting their game, and STILL let known pirates run rampant on game servers...
AcidJiles 17th January 2008, 12:52 Quote
Games are one thing you should never pirate ever. I choose well and always get my moneys worth out of it so am happy to put up the cash. With tv shows, movies and music for the amount of time enjoyment I get out of them I am less inclinded to put up the money. I am prepared to pay for time I enjoy with M,M and TV the price at retail is too much per hour of enjoyment. (eg they are over priced for what they are)
mikeuk2004 17th January 2008, 13:08 Quote
90% people have pirated something but I agree that the Pc market is not very big anymore and probably because its too easy to copy a game. It will die and everyone will have a console :)
Carbon_Arc 17th January 2008, 13:12 Quote
2007 was a fantastic year for PC gamers, and with reports of dispaointing sales and mass priacy, it worrying that we may not see as year as good again.

I believe that game developers put a lot of passion and effort into their work and that they deserve to be rewarded for that by people paying money for the games. Most new releases can be had for 25 quid on-line, so there is no excuse for not paying for a copy.

Anti-piracy measures are rather poor at the moment and generally do cause issues for those of us who actually bought the game (Relic on-line with it's required log-in for multiplayer CoH, and horrible, horrible server reliability has seriously hurt what is a fantastic game for me). But it seems like a vicious circle, if piracy was less abundant then publishers would get less jumpy and maybe not be quite so hard us legitimate gamers.

Personally i like a good collectors edition tin case with my new releases!
steveo_mcg 17th January 2008, 13:25 Quote
I suppose the question of 2007 being a fantastic year yet having poor sales would be, if these games came out separately instead of a few weeks apart would they have all sold better?
Journeyer 17th January 2008, 13:33 Quote
As long as there is computer software (be it games or applications) there will also be piracy. There is absolutely no way to combat this. Look at Vista, with its horrible activation system and all the troubles with WGA and whatnot; how long did it take for this to be circumvented and cracked? Not long, and this will always be the case.

You might argue that this deals heavy blows to the software industries, but on the other hand it also helps promote development in software security. However, it can never be made foolprof and still be expected to work.

Yes, they might require online registration and activation, but the increased hassle would also alienate their users. And besides, again I might refer to Vista which supposedly was "un-pirateable." I know of pirated copies of Vista that are permanently activated leaving MS none the wiser.
iwog 17th January 2008, 13:35 Quote
The last PC game I pirated was Sims 2, which bored me to tears so that came off. The one before that was SupCom which I enjoyed so much I bought, this was after the demo perked my interest. I do how ever have the N64 goodset, and its surprisingly easy to avoid the copy protection on some consoles.
cjoyce1980 17th January 2008, 13:37 Quote
people download games like this because there not sure how well it will perform on there pc, so why spend £30 to find that you need a new MoBo, processor and graphics card
badders 17th January 2008, 13:42 Quote
Bioshock made me laugh. Everyone was up in arms about the copy protection and limited installs. Oone of my friends had a pirated copy the day after it came out, which had all the copy protection stripped out.

As companies create more and more restrictive copy protection systems, crackers will find more and more ingenious ways to get around those systems. Every idiot who intended to pirate it will do, and the only people who lose out are the ones who actually buy the game - us.

They may as well just take off all copy protection apart from having to have the CD in the drive with a valid CD key, and let the pirates get on with it. It's up to us to take the moral high ground and buy these games.

On a side note, I've replayed the Crysis demo loads of times, cos I don't want to spend £26 on a game that's been panned for everything except graphics! Bauer difficulty with unlimited cloak & Aliens rocks.
[USRF]Obiwan 17th January 2008, 13:50 Quote
I have other thoughts:

Would the people who play the copied game bought the game if this game was not crackable or copyable.
Can they say they lost profits from copied games if the users of these games would not have bought it anyway.
Are these lost profits then fictional or do they have actual proof that people who have played the cracked game would actualy have bought it if the game was not available throught underground scenes.

And now they say: "ooh a xxxxx total of people play online with cracked keys". WELL dont let them, ban them, or do something. This is stupid. Why make a key in the first place of everyone can use it anyway. Hell, Lets open the Levi store at night so people can run in and get stuff free. Hey! there where 200 people last night who walked out with a trouser wow!


My thought on this is, that good quality games will sell. Also think about the costs of a game. A lot of people i know wait 3 or 4 months, so they can get the game for reduces prices (me included), over here Crysis is 59,99 euro in the stores. (And COD4 is even 65 euro) In about 3 months it will be 30 euro or less (if i am lucky)

How can they say COD4 does not sell it is not even out a month. Do they now how much PC games there where released the last 2 months? And it with 65 euro it is one of the most expensive games at the moment.

And they can save oozes of money if they would totaly ditch any copy protection because, it is proven for 20 years that copyprotection doesnt do anything other then being a pleague and anoyance for game-buyers. Dont you just all love the nocd/dvd cracks?!
Xtrafresh 17th January 2008, 13:53 Quote
Don't bash me too bad for this, but i am a many-times download offender.

I hereby pledge that i will start paying for games the day that studios start offering a legal download at reduced fees. I firmly believe that games (and other content) can be offered through a download service profitably for 10-15 euros.
In other words: I'd happily pay prices i can pay, but 50 euros for a single game is just way too much.
Xir 17th January 2008, 13:57 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by plagio
yeah, but than you need to be connected to the internet even to play single player games.

Right.
That's what stopped my playing HL2 (which I own).
I'm on a pretty thin and unstable WLAN connection, and having to download loads of stuff... (well if you don't connect to steam to often they pile up)
Starting Steam is just a pain for me.

If I want to play single player i may have an hour of load time...(update time really) that's just not acceptable.

BUT...for multiplayer it's probably the only way to stop copies.
And that's the trick...single player crackable, multiplayer must be registered.

it works.
Silver Shamrock 17th January 2008, 14:09 Quote
*
iwog 17th January 2008, 14:21 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by Silver Shamrock
The most pathetic excuse for theft i've ever heard. There are PLENTY of ways to check whether a game will run nice or not on someones pc without having to resort to stealing it.

Such as http://www.systemrequirementslab.com/referrer/srtest Tells you how good your PC is and what games you can run.
will. 17th January 2008, 14:26 Quote
Or just looking at the box?
naokaji 17th January 2008, 14:29 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by will.
Or just looking at the box?

hw requirements on the box = most often completly imaginary numbers.

but, it still doesnt make it a excuse for pirating. demo's take care of the try if it runs on your system part.
friky19 17th January 2008, 15:20 Quote
ok, i got bored of reading when i saw the fourth long post.

Im gonna admit this, i've pirated so many games in the past that im so ashamed.. But recently, i saw how it was affecting the industry and since like 5 years or so Ive been buying the games that I love, including the whole Call of Duty series. Not only that, but im encouraging my friends to do so as well, and they are.

But let me put an example, I d/l the demo of the latest Need For Speed, it sucked, didnt buy it. But then I saw it at a friends house, and he had a pirated copy. I passed a whole day non stop playing. Then Crysis came out, I didnt even bother on buying nor pirating this one because all the publicity of how it wont run on low or midrange pc's.

So you see, sometimes its not the consumers the ones that screw up....
Flugan 17th January 2008, 15:28 Quote
While I know that this is a microscopic view call of duty 4 did sell really well in my home country sweden.

If you look at the multiformat toplist for 2007 you will see ps2 and PC is dominating the charts which is quite remarkable coming from retail sales of new games.
http://gamereactor.se/nyheter/12734/Svenska+speltoppen+2007/
looking only at the holiday period:
http://www.gamereactor.se/nyheter/12388/Svenska+speltoppen+nov/
http://www.gamereactor.se/nyheter/12663/Svenska+speltoppen+dec/

Back to the topic of piracy of online games where patched servers bypass the copy protection I don't know if the problem has grown or if you just are blissfully ignorant unless you're aware of them. For instance I play many valve games on steam but am completely unaware of wheter there exists 100th's of patched servers.
aggies11 17th January 2008, 15:28 Quote
Checking game-monitor.com, it would seem out of 24,000 simultaneous players (as of 10am EST) at least 2,000 or so are playing on (presumably) identifiable "cracked" servers. Thats almost 10% which I must admit, is surprisingly a little on the high side. And could be possibly higher if there are many "unidentifiable" cracked/pirate servers. However I don't think that is anywhere near "astounding".

Aggies
n8dude 17th January 2008, 15:41 Quote
Pirating A game is never right. I don't care about the price of the game or whatever. One of my friends got busted for pirating, destroyed his entire life. Plus it's never fair to the game developers, they probably worked really hard on the game and you are just stealing money from them basically.
Redbeaver 17th January 2008, 15:42 Quote
a little birdy told me..

... the piracy community prefer to download singleplayer games rather than pay for it. then if its worth their money, some actually buys the real thing. they even say some cracker-group actually pointed out 'if u like it, then buy it! like we did!'.

...but as far as multiplayer goes, most of the community would jump straight up to buy a copy without bothering cracks for playing online. they mightve tried it for singleplayer with a cracked version first, but if its online gaming... very few actually bother to go the distance to avoid paying $40....


.... thats what i heard.
Glider 17th January 2008, 15:43 Quote
All I read here is 'pirating ruins the game industry' and 'pirating is bad'. While I don't condone to pirating (and I never game myself), I think the biggest killer of the game industry is the game industry. How long was it since something really different came out? I mean, Cyris, Bioshock, CoD4,MoH,... are all the same. Pick up a gun, walk around a bit, blow someones head off... Ok, one might be in a different setting, or have better graphics, or more realism but who cares? They are all flavours of the same.

What game studios need to do is bring on something new... Look at Introvision, Uplink, Defcon, Darwinia are all unique games that are fun to play, don't require a 5000€/$/£ machine and cost 10-15$. Low price, fun game. Cashing out 40+$ for another rerun of the same is just asking for piracy IMHO.
lewchenko 17th January 2008, 16:34 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by Xtrafresh
Don't bash me too bad for this, but i am a many-times download offender.

I hereby pledge that i will start paying for games the day that studios start offering a legal download at reduced fees. I firmly believe that games (and other content) can be offered through a download service profitably for 10-15 euros.
In other words: I'd happily pay prices i can pay, but 50 euros for a single game is just way too much.

Thats right... keep making up the excuses to justify your theft. So now because they dont offer a download you can afford, that means its ok to steal. Retard.

Try getting a better job so that 50 euros doesnt hurt so much.
will. 17th January 2008, 16:35 Quote
Yea, while I'd love that to happen, I'd rather have 10 awesome games in a year with 1 of those being truly orriginal than just having 1 game a year with 9 pathetic attempts at being orriginal but ending up simply being a bit gimmicky.
lewchenko 17th January 2008, 16:42 Quote
another way to look at things..

Imagine you and your 9 buddies are going go-karting. 2 of your mates decide not to pay for the 1hr session, which they think costs too much money (even though they can afford it but would rather spend their money on [whatever else] ). But they come along anyway and ride a go-kart for free using a cracked key.

How do you feel riding alongside these 2 free loading mates of yours ? You paid for your session, but they know they can get away with it for free so dont bother.

Some mates huh ?

We all know people like these. They play COD4 alongside you on game servers, but think they shouldnt have to pay to have that privilege. Freeloading thieves who will invent ANY excuse to justify why the law/rules dont apply to them.
impar 17th January 2008, 16:51 Quote
Greetings!
Quote:
Originally Posted by lewchenko
Freeloading thieves who will invent ANY excuse to justify why the law/rules dont apply to them.
Yep. You got it.
slugbug 17th January 2008, 17:07 Quote
I won a copy of the game from an EVGA contest and the bums at Activision never sent it. They'll get no sympathy from me.
TGImages 17th January 2008, 17:09 Quote
2 words.

Apple IIGS

OK. for those of us who remember that long ago... it had great sound and graphics (for its time) and could have been (and was) a great gaming machine.... except everyone I knew copied everything for it. Manufacturers were selling 5,000 - 10,000 copies of great games... and selling 50,000 to 100,000 of a piece of crap game on a PC. Guess what happened... no more Apple development, no more software, no more machine.

Pirating software on PCs (or any platform for that matter) will result in manufacturers simply abandoning that platform as they can't recoup their investment. Might take awhile but it will happen. Be smart. If you want it, buy it... if it really sucks there is always ebay.
Daniel114 17th January 2008, 17:10 Quote
Wait...

Bootleg 'Pirates Of The Caribbean' scam uncovered; Piracy is rampant
Awoken 17th January 2008, 17:38 Quote
£35-40 is too high for a game. £30 is fine if its the first few weeks of release... personally I can wait. But ultimately all games should cost £20 or less; I always wait for a few months until the price drops below £20 and then buy from whichever store is the cheapest.

I know a lot of people who used to get the boxed games because it came with a manual/maps/pullouts etc which you wouldn't get if you copied the game. This dissuaded casual pirates who couldn't reproduce these extras. Now you barely get anything in the box and instruction manuals often leave out information which is key to play so pirating means you won't be missing anything. Just something to think about.
notatoad 17th January 2008, 17:45 Quote
i downloaded CoD4. then i played through the singleplayer campaign in about a day. if i ever planned to do some multiplayer or spend a lot of time playing, i would have bought it, but there is no way i am paying $50 for a days entertainment. if they sold a singleplayer-only version for ~$20 i would have bought it.
Bungle 17th January 2008, 17:47 Quote
The only good pirate is a dead one.;)
Stickeh 17th January 2008, 17:48 Quote
I just Paid £25 for COD4 limited edition from GAME of all places....
Like someone else has already said, single player only games i would pirate, but multi players are worth buying if the multi player is good!

Edit: PS i don't play games unless they come with a multi player aspect any more, seems a waste of money for a few hours gaming, while i can really sink my teeth into some multi player and enjoy it with some friends for hours on end :)
completemadness 17th January 2008, 17:58 Quote
Ill admit i have a copy of the game, not from shops, However, its only for me to see what its like (i havent gotten around to it as of yet)

I believe that if its worth playing online, its worth paying, and CoD4 wouldnt be any exception, i think its quite sad that people are playing this game that much, and not ever paying for it

usually though, you cant play online, as its quite easy to check that the Keys arent duplicates/copys or whatever (a-la, Q4 and doom 3 for example)
I guess the dev's did somthing wrong this time
Stickeh 17th January 2008, 18:05 Quote
Also id like to add a user account would be the best way to solve this problem, works great through steam, only one person can be connected to that account at the time...so why not implement this, or even sell your game cheaper through steam,
when i looked to buy the game it was SEVENTY dollars, thats £35! I got the limited edition for £10 cheaper, and it came in a box and everything ( with a poster and a downloadable copy of the game guide! ). Make it cheaper to buy online and people will come, they dont have to leave their house to pay for it, it wont run out of stock etc etc!
Jamie 17th January 2008, 18:12 Quote
I certainly wouldn't even dream of gaming on a PC if I could play with a keyboard and mouse on a console.
aggies11 17th January 2008, 19:06 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by n8dude
Pirating A game is never right. I don't care about the price of the game or whatever. One of my friends got busted for pirating, destroyed his entire life. Plus it's never fair to the game developers, they probably worked really hard on the game and you are just stealing money from them basically.

Forgive me for being a bit skeptical, but a first post that reads like a PR blast on why piracy is bad, plus some anecdotal evidence about the consequences, just seems a little too "shill" like to me. So I hope you don't mind if I take your comment with a shaker full of salt, regardless of what my own person views on piracy may or may not be.

Re: Lewchenko

While I appreciate your sentiment, your analogy is flawed in a few ways. 1. The only way to "play alongside" with pirates, is to play on cracked servers. But regular players aren't playing on those servers anyhow. It'd be more like "Your mates get to ride for free, with their "pirated" keys, on a second, run down "shittier" track, that are full of other riders who often disobey the rules, bump you, cheat etc, and has no supervision". 2. How does it feel that my mates got to ride for free, when I didn't? Uhm, exactly the same as if they paid? I mean, nothing has changed for my experience. In fact, if the alternative was that they didn't get to race at all, and it was only me and my 7 buddies racing, I could probably argue that it would be more fun for me (with more racers on the track) with them than without them, regardless of whether they paid or not.

Now, if you changed things a bit and made it so that the race track needs 9 paid carts on the track in order to make enough money to stay financially viable, and with only 7 people paying (and two racing for free) they are going to have to close down and go out of business (so that no one can race anymore), then that makes a lot more sense and becomes a compelling argument. HOWEVER that has not been proven to be the case, so far.

If we kept the things the same, then I would never give a friend a few of my french fries, because it would "ruin" my experience of eating my meal knowing that he is eating some of my fries without having paid for anything at all. And video games aren't even french fries, because there is actually no physical loss. It'd be more like me being able to duplicate my french fries for free, and still not share.

Obviously the analogies have gone a bit too far now, but I think my point is clear :)

Aggies
CardJoe 17th January 2008, 19:30 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by Xtrafresh
I firmly believe that games (and other content) can be offered through a download service profitably for 10-15 euros.
In other words: I'd happily pay prices i can pay, but 50 euros for a single game is just way too much.

Tell that to Ritual. They didn't do too well with Sin: Episodes on that policy and, so far, the only people who've been able to do it at all are Telltale Games (sam and max) and Valve. Valve only managed it because HL2 will always sell. TellTale only managed it because Sam and Max has low production values and a stable audience.
Hamish 17th January 2008, 20:33 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by Xir
Right.
That's what stopped my playing HL2 (which I own).
I'm on a pretty thin and unstable WLAN connection, and having to download loads of stuff... (well if you don't connect to steam to often they pile up)
Starting Steam is just a pain for me.

If I want to play single player i may have an hour of load time...(update time really) that's just not acceptable.

BUT...for multiplayer it's probably the only way to stop copies.
And that's the trick...single player crackable, multiplayer must be registered.

it works.

once you've got a single player steam game activated
right click -> properties -> updates -> do not automatically update this game
you only NEED to update for the MP games

Quote:
Originally Posted by Redbeaver
a little birdy told me..

... the piracy community prefer to download singleplayer games rather than pay for it. then if its worth their money, some actually buys the real thing. they even say some cracker-group actually pointed out 'if u like it, then buy it! like we did!'.

...but as far as multiplayer goes, most of the community would jump straight up to buy a copy without bothering cracks for playing online. they mightve tried it for singleplayer with a cracked version first, but if its online gaming... very few actually bother to go the distance to avoid paying $40....


.... thats what i heard.
birdy was right ;)
knuck 17th January 2008, 20:40 Quote
Activision didn't help themselves... My friend and I played with the same copy on 2 pc's for about 3 days non stop and we never had any problem. I bought the game since then and I don't regret it at all. Great game overall... now if I could run it smoothly ;)
AngelOfRage 17th January 2008, 21:08 Quote
The only game i find myself going back to is WoW, been playing for ages now and everybody goes on about how much i must have spent on it at £8.99 a month. BUT, in terms of cost per hours played it's the best value game i've paid for. I've bought loads of games new at full price that i must have had less than 10 hours gameplay from, them being that bad.
I've given up with PC gaming recently, i'm not paying £30-40 for a game that i get a few hours worth of gameplay from and that each new game that comes out forces me to upgrade my PC to run it correctly. Especially as new GFX cards alone cost as much as entire consoles!

I'm now going for a PS3, looking at it as a long term investment. My PS2, which is on it's last legs is now over 5 years old and still running things. I've not had to upgrade it to play a new game and i can get many cheap, budget, 2nd hand games for it still.

My current thinking, PC = MMORPGS, Console = everything else.
impar 17th January 2008, 21:25 Quote
Greetings!
Quote:
Originally Posted by supertoad
i downloaded CoD4. then i played through the singleplayer campaign in about a day. if i ever planned to do some multiplayer or spend a lot of time playing, i would have bought it, but there is no way i am paying $50 for a days entertainment. if they sold a singleplayer-only version for ~$20 i would have bought it.
No one was forced to play the game, no one was forced to buy the game at $50.
You wanted to play the game and pirated it, that makes you a freeloader with an excuse.
DXR_13KE 17th January 2008, 22:44 Quote
For all the people that called me a filthy thief and scum, i wont respond to them or else i would get banned or censored.

Why did it say the above?..... i have lots of originals in my room, there must be 20+ in my chest and 30+ in "exposition", all of them i saved money to get, i also pirate a game from now and then, most of them turn me into a customer, i only buy a game when it reaches a critical price and a critical quality and i usually get them when they get into some kind of pack, the critical price is about 30€, i refuse to pay more than 30€ (60€ for a game is to much my wallet) for a good game so i wait, and wait, and wait, until.... there.... the game i want for <30€, and then snatch! i buy it, like i did with COD2, which single player i finished 2 times before i bought the original, and then finished it again (and it is there calling me to play it again), when cod4 gets to the critical price i will get it, Activision deserves my money for what they have done in the past.....
When people call me a thief and scum they are putting me into the same bag as people that go into a store and steal money (or games), steal purses from people that are walking on the street, steal things from old people homes, evade taxes, beat wives, sell drugs.... etc..... these people are he real thieves and scum.
If i never pirated a game in my life i would have never gotten so much games, so then i would still be a worse criminal? Raven, epic, EA and all of the others would never had my € and would be "starving".
As for demos...... did that for a time, and the games them selves were immediately sold second hand after i got them, after passing the corner of shame (the pinnacle tv card is still there jinxing that corner of the room), demos simply don't reflect the quality of the game imho.
On a final note, if had a pc that was good enough for current gen gaming my collection would be bigger, why did i say this? simple, this means that one of the reasons all those excellent 2007 games did not sell very well is that they demand to much from current gen systems and people are not willing to get them, neither i am willing to pirate them.

edit: there is one kind of pirate i can call scum and thief, the ones that sell copied games, movies and music on the street and by other means, these guys profit from other people work.
Kipman725 17th January 2008, 23:10 Quote
I buy games second hand and when they get reduced <£5 the older games are so much better than the new ones in the majority it's not ever funny. There are still some good games like orange box but most are poor. Anyway the games companies don't make any money off me even though I'm not pirating. I hate the asumption that jsut because you have made something you should automaticly make money off it. COD4 looked rubbish to me so I had no motivation to buy it.
Cobalt 17th January 2008, 23:11 Quote
I generally will torrent a game before I buy it. I find demos woefully inadequate most of the time and have made quite a few bad purchases based on them, leaving a nasty taste in your mouth when you're £35 out of pocket and the shop won't refund you. I must have downloaded near to twenty games, the only ones I didn't buy in the end were Bioshock and UT3. I played both of them for about three hours then uninstalled them. I didn't even seed them past 100% which tells you something about how disappointed I was by them as normally I'm particular about my torrenting etiquette.

COD4 impressed me so much I bought it the same day.
wuyanxu 17th January 2008, 23:16 Quote
piracy IS a problem of PC gaming, due to how easy it is compared to consoles. but i think the reason piracy is so heavy is that why, when you have installed a game, you have to put in the disk to play it?!? it's not a console, it's a PC game, and that's why i think if they get rid of those stupid counter-measures (which are easily disabled by using cracks, i do this all the time with all games i bought and i am not ashamed) they might get better sells. eg CoH got pretty good sells.
notatoad 17th January 2008, 23:28 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by impar
Greetings!No one was forced to play the game, no one was forced to buy the game at $50.
You wanted to play the game and pirated it, that makes you a freeloader with an excuse.

i'm not trying to justify it. i know that downloading games is wrong. i'm just saying that game companies might have more luck getting people to buy the game if they priced it a bit more reasonably.

technical measures to defeat piracy will never work. the publishers need to convince the customers that they want to pay money for their product. they need to build some brand loyalty through respecting their customers and offering prices that their target market can afford. the music industry is slowly learning, i predict that movies will follow in the next two years, and game and software publishers after that.
bahgger 17th January 2008, 23:33 Quote
I think some people may decide on pirated games as a means of trying out a game before purchasing it, and if that is the case then I suppose it isn't all too bad. I remember getting Crysis online because it was out 3 days before it was officially out but I had already placed an order at Play.com regardless :) Some games (like COD4) don't appeal to me so I don't play them nor buy the copy off the shelf.
Bungle 17th January 2008, 23:56 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by bahgger
I think some people may decide on pirated games as a means of trying out a game before purchasing it, and if that is the case then I suppose it isn't all too bad. I remember getting Crysis online because it was out 3 days before it was officially out but I had already placed an order at Play.com regardless :) Some games (like COD4) don't appeal to me so I don't play them nor buy the copy off the shelf.
You can try and justify Piracy all you want....ITS WRONG FULL STOP. You wouldn't break in to a car showroom and steal a car just to see if you wanted to buy it. Would you?
As long as there are people downloading content they are not entitled to, the industry suffers. The practice is so commonplace people actually think there are times when it's justified.
Glider 18th January 2008, 00:06 Quote
Can we about stop the endless reruns of the "war on piracy" episode? It's getting quite old by now... Some do it, some don't, but the choice wetter or not someone pirates software is a personal one...
CanadianViking 18th January 2008, 00:31 Quote
Alright, anyone who's downloaded music before, DON'T BASH PEOPLE WHO PIRATE GAMES. All this thread seems to be about is telling people who download games that they're scumbags.

I download games. I will freely admit that. I only download old ones because of the age of my computer, but I'm not trying to justify it. I know it's theft. What gets me, is people who bash people like me, but then go home and download music. It's easy, why not?

IT'S THE SAME THING. Intellectual property theft. Identical crimes.

If you've ever downloaded ANYTHING copyrighted (music, film, software) without direct consent from the publisher, DO NOT start smack-talking game pirates.

Oh, and if you don't download anything at all, then feel proud. Just don't start telling me I'm a bad person, let me get arrested on my own thank-you.
bubsterboo 18th January 2008, 02:36 Quote
A large percentage of the piracy on Crysis is entirely EAs fault. They pre-released it to people before the official release date. So ofcource, you could download it before you could buy it.

To anyone wanting Crysis (even if they want to buy it) this was very encouraging.
Edvuld 18th January 2008, 05:14 Quote
When I was younger, say maybe 14-18, everyone pirated everything all the time, but when you grow up I think most people find that it's kinda neat to have your own collection of original games, movies and music.
knuck 18th January 2008, 05:18 Quote
when you were younger ?

I find it kind of funny because it's not as if 'piracy' had been around for 25 years ;)
notatoad 18th January 2008, 05:35 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by Edvuld
When I was younger, say maybe 14-18, everyone pirated everything all the time, but when you grow up I think most people find that it's kinda neat to have your own collection of original games, movies and music.

you mean when you have a job and resposibilities and no time to play games, you can afford to buy them.
CardJoe 18th January 2008, 07:48 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ghys
when you were younger ?

I find it kind of funny because it's not as if 'piracy' had been around for 25 years ;)

Yeah it has. I was collecting pirated Amiga games from car boot sales and pirate collection disks decades ago until I learned better. It's the benefit of living in a market town.
Edvuld 18th January 2008, 08:05 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by supertoad
you mean when you have a job and resposibilities and no time to play games, you can afford to buy them.

Somewhat yes. What I meant was that when we were in school you have much more time to play games, but not a whole lot of cash to spend on them, and when I was in that age I can't say I cared at all about the companies that released the games, but now I want to support those who make quality games, and that's why I payed for The Orange Box, CoD4 etc, even though I haven't gotten around to play them really. I've only played Ep2 out of TOB, and I still have MGS 2-3 untouched in my shelf... I guess I'll try them out soon ;)

I'm 22 btw ;)
Xir 18th January 2008, 10:05 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by supertoad
you mean when you have a job and resposibilities and no time to play games, you can afford to buy them.

Exactly ;-)

The legal way is quicker and usually easier (apart from useless copy protection that makes it intricate again) and most people reach a point where this counts more than saving some cash.
With updates (patches) becoming more important*, this will increase. (saving you the hassle of having to search a spyware/virus infested site for a new crack)

*read: Companies can't be bugged to do a proper test. Sometimes I feel like I'm buying beta's instead of gold

Same goes for other Software...at some point you'll end up owning a legitimate copy of Windows :)
Just don't have the time to put together your PC from scraps other people throw away...and have the money to go a quicker, legal way.

So yes, it's a question of age and awareness (and financial resources), people tend to pirate more when they're younger.

Xir

Frankly, if I were a twelve year old now, I'd get into linux....
Hamish 18th January 2008, 10:34 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bungle
You can try and justify Piracy all you want....ITS WRONG FULL STOP. You wouldn't break in to a car showroom and steal a car just to see if you wanted to buy it. Would you?

thats such a horrible analogy


what really pisses me off is when stuff is released a week or so earlier in the states than here
been plenty of games i've had pre-ordered and still pirated and completed a week before UK release
more games should be released on steam and international retail simultaneosly
iwog 18th January 2008, 10:36 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by Xir

Same goes for other Software...at some point you'll end up owning a legitimate copy of Windows :)
Just don't have the time to put together your PC from scraps other people throw away...and have the money to go a quicker, legal way.

I've never not owned a legit copy of Windows. Its just too much hassel using the poorly implimented keygens to try and validate XP so you can download the multitude of patches. Plus as I use it all the time it seems a good investment. Office on the other hand.... I think the last legit copy I owned was back in 99 on a 98 machine. Am currently using open office though but have a copy of MS office on my lappy so I can format my work properly before taking it into Uni to print it.
cpu121 18th January 2008, 14:10 Quote
Didn't the COD4 1.4 patch remove the CD check - I've noticed that I haven't needed the disc in to play anymore.

Irritatingly though, if the game crashes or I have to restart it for some reason, I can't get back on immediately because my serial no. is apparently in use. Seems another case of legal players being punished while illegal players are getting off scot free.
Spaceraver 18th January 2008, 18:50 Quote
Ill buy the game if i play it more than ½ hour, no excuse. And yes i d/l them too.. I have grown accustomed to steam and it's benefits.. Or any publisher that gives you a download option..
leexgx 19th January 2008, 00:47 Quote
Crysis and Unreal Tournament 3 came out after COD4 and has sold alot mroe all my clan members have the game none of us even bothered to download the game to test first (i not even played the single player)

Single player Needs the CD, Mutilplayer does not

i give up on games i can use no-CD files on, Bio-shock i not buying untill thay remove shity starforce or what ever it is as i can Download an Crapware free install of Bioshock that will give me No hassle not not requre me to remove my demon tools for my nocd ISO dvd drives

Company of heros was an good game that i did download and play at first then got first game then then addon later on (single player in that game is good)

c&c3 i am ok with as thay allways used the same protection (game.dat file) (i own all the games listed but not bioshock)

i could make an Big list of games even ones that use rootkit type of installs or needing an daft driver for the game to work
fathazza 19th January 2008, 01:34 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by iwog
Office on the other hand.... I think the last legit copy I owned was back in 99 on a 98 machine. Am currently using open office though but have a copy of MS office on my lappy so I can format my work properly before taking it into Uni to print it.

There is no reason for a student not to own office tbh, its only £39 from http://www.theultimatesteal.co.uk/ for the ultimate version. or £12 for a years license. And you can install it on a desktop and a laptop so only one copy is needed.

Tbh tho for a lot of pc games they should cut out the shop retailers and their silly mark ups and release it digitally for a reasonable price on steam or another service like it and that would cut down piracy and encourage more people to buy it (iirc it was something silly for people in the uk at release like $80 on steam) Yes some people dont have the internet but you cant please everyone.

As for cod 4, i bought it played the sp, didnt like the mp that much and sold it on ebay for a profit (why do people pay more on ebay for things?) i wonder if their stats think the guy i sold it to is using a stolen copy because the ip the key is being used at has changed....
iwog 19th January 2008, 01:44 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by fathazza
There is no reason for a student not to own office tbh, its only £39 from http://www.theultimatesteal.co.uk/ for the ultimate version. or £12 for a years license. And you can install it on a desktop and a laptop so only one copy is needed.

My parents have got my copy of it. I'm quite happy using Open Office for my main work then spending half an hour in M$ Office to make it printable. And that Ultimate Steal offer is only open for another couple of months so next years intake of students ave no cheap M$ Office option. Plus M$ Office 2007 uses an incompatible file save to M$ Office 2003. So either way I would need to spend time in the programme the Uni uses to make it print correctly.
steveo_mcg 19th January 2008, 10:19 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by fathazza


Tbh tho for a lot of pc games they should cut out the shop retailers and their silly mark ups and release it digitally for a reasonable price on steam or another service like it and that would cut down piracy and encourage more people to buy it (iirc it was something silly for people in the uk at release like $80 on steam) Yes some people dont have the internet but you cant please everyone.

tbh I would still release things in the shops and let them have there mark up and make digital distribution much cheaper and to hell with the netless. Sad fact is People with out internet are pretty unlikely to be pirating games from torrent.
DXR_13KE 19th January 2008, 15:45 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by iwog
My parents have got my copy of it. I'm quite happy using Open Office for my main work then spending half an hour in M$ Office to make it printable. And that Ultimate Steal offer is only open for another couple of months so next years intake of students ave no cheap M$ Office option. Plus M$ Office 2007 uses an incompatible file save to M$ Office 2003. So either way I would need to spend time in the programme the Uni uses to make it print correctly.

i think a better way would be to export the file as a pdf file.......
iwog 19th January 2008, 18:24 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by DXR_13KE
i think a better way would be to export the file as a pdf file.......

You obviously haven't met our "tech team". If you try and print a 10 page pdf on our system it normally wont print anything other than the first page followed by loads of blanks. Can see my tutors being really happy with that cant you.
DXR_13KE 20th January 2008, 13:20 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by iwog
You obviously haven't met our "tech team". If you try and print a 10 page pdf on our system it normally wont print anything other than the first page followed by loads of blanks. Can see my tutors being really happy with that cant you.

that is very stupid...... when i do any kind or work and i want to print it in the uni i export it as a pdf using something like primo pdf, then i print it at our IT centre at the uni.... it works every time.
DougEdey 20th January 2008, 13:25 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by DXR_13KE
that is very stupid...... when i do any kind or work and i want to print it in the uni i export it as a pdf using something like primo pdf, then i print it at our IT centre at the uni.... it works every time.

We can print to any printer from any location in our uni, just get charged per page...
Tim S 20th January 2008, 13:47 Quote
You can save files in 2007 as Office 2003 documents if you're going to be sending to people who don't have Office 2007.
impar 20th January 2008, 19:04 Quote
Greetings!
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tim S
You can save files in 2007 as Office 2003 documents if you're going to be sending to people who don't have Office 2007.
So, whats the point on having a 2007-only document type? Just to lose any interoperability?
Glider 20th January 2008, 19:14 Quote
In a couple of years ...
impar 28th January 2008, 21:23 Quote
Greetings!

Back on topic.

The article stated:
Quote:
"On another PC related note, we pulled some disturbing numbers this past week about the amount of PC players currently playing Multiplayer (which was fantastic). What wasn't fantastic was the percentage of those numbers who were playing on stolen copies of the game on stolen / cracked CD keys of pirated copies (and that was only people playing online)," said Robert.

"[I'm] not sure if I can share the exact numbers or percentage of PC players with you, but I'll check and see; if I can I'll update with them. As the amount of people who pirate PC games is astounding. It blows me away at the amount of people willing to steal games (or anything) simply because it's not physical or it's on the safety of the internet to do."

Activision claimed last week to have hit 7 million CoD4 sales during 2007, VG Chartz shows worldwide sales of CoD4, till 29/12/2007, of 3.893.700 for X360 and 1.792.009 for PS3.
That leaves only ~1.300.000 worldwide CoD4 PC sales.

According to VG Chartz, PS3 users were 8.842.596, at the end of 2007, almost 1 in 5 of those users managed to acquire legitimately the game (1:4,93).
According to VG Chartz, X360 users were 16.148.759, at the end of 2007, 1 in 4,15 of those users managed to acquire legitimately the game.

Applying a generous ratio of 1:6, PC supporters dont even reach the 8 million mark. There are a lot of freeloaders though...
Eloquence 1st February 2008, 07:01 Quote
I would have bought the game on Steam, but, after they decided to double the price to bring it in line with local retailers, I will be staying away.
http://www.kotaku.com.au/games/2007/11/call_of_duty_4_oz_steam_price_doubles_overnight.html
When Aussies stop getting the price shaft when it comes to games (we pay on average double what people in the US pay), I'll start buying games again.
Stickeh 1st February 2008, 08:51 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by Eloquence
I would have bought the game on Steam, but, after they decided to double the price to bring it in line with local retailers, I will be staying away.
http://www.kotaku.com.au/games/2007/11/call_of_duty_4_oz_steam_price_doubles_overnight.html
When Aussies stop getting the price shaft when it comes to games (we pay on average double what people in the US pay), I'll start buying games again.

That's ****ing rediculous for you guys, the reason it should be available to purchase on-line is that it should be CHEAPER not more expensive! Steam / Valve would make so much more money being cheaper, but i am sure they are pshed by retailers/distributers,a decent game wouldnt need any backing except from their coding team, get the game on steam for a price thats nice, itll sell well they get more of the profits and you dont need a middle man for distribution....

The price you pay is just under £40 for us, which is right for a new-released game over here, but we get it for $70 ( £35) off steam, or as i did i went to a well known store for being overpriced yet a big seller GAME and got it for £25, the limited version too!

I just don't understand why it is more expensive on steam?!
CardJoe 1st February 2008, 08:56 Quote
Well, you could argue that Steam is in a more difficult position having to track different currencies from a centralised location. However, steam also offers some extras above retail - auto updates, centralised system for easy access, VAC security etc. They also have the market cornered on digital distribution. Personally, I love Steam and, when if the prices line up as you say then I just buy it retail. It's not a big deal. As wit everything you just find the deal you feel is best for you.
tiger68 29th February 2008, 23:49 Quote
Well first i must say.
Most games are way to expensive.
Why do I say so.
There are many medias who play around my money, and its seems like everyone thinks that everybody have a goldminer in the pocket.
I like to pay for what i like to use. But when the producer behaves like usurer it´s real bad. For an example When the vinylLP was the most comon mediatype in everyones home and there was a few gameconsoles, and just a few TV-channels i used to pay for every game LP and so on. I have always listened alot on radio so my needs to buy every single/LP or cassette where low. And i had alot of money left for games. Later on the CD was intrudused all sellers/resellers and producents said, its so cheap to produce a CD and its so much better quality so it will be cheaper for the private person to buy and at the same time more left for the producent/music groups/ and so on. But what happened? Initialy the CD was cheaper but the hardware where lot more expensive. After a while when noone or almost noone produced vinyls the CD began to rais in price, almost everyone accepted it but somewhere the crossed the line to become usurer. At the same time the CD recorders where introduced, well to a very high price, but i know many who buyed the Recorder and started to burn CD´s and sell it to half the price as the original. Even before that the selling statistics was going down fast. Well their way to act is and where really bad, but if the producers not had passed the line to usurer it wouldn’t happened. All media in the air also plays for the customers attention, so if the single media game or music, radio/Tv or movie sells less the whole mediaselling is so huge that its impossible to understand the pricing for the single product.

If I have corn to sell and noone seems to buy it a have to lower my price. But in the mediasector they don’t follow that rule. They just starts to whine and then the governments makes some new laws, and so it goes on and on and on again. Why do the mediamarket have the right to be usurers when other markets have to follow the rules on the market.
Lots of corn less of customers is equal to a lower price. But in the mediamarket the go the other way, less sellery compares to a higher price, then the piracy starts and they higher the price about $5-$10. sometimes I use to wait a year to buy the movie, MusicCD or the game aspecialy when it’s a singleplayer game. For online multiplayer games I mostly select one or two and play it to its death.

I cant say I guard the pirates, but I understand the forces behind it. The producers and sellers seems to negliate the customers and referers to old sellary when the set the price on a single game.

Now the whining have started again and we will see where it ends. I hope for my life that the governments will rice and say stop. And put the customers privacy in focus.
The only way to go is like the satellite-TV-producers did. They put the package in a high codescrambling hard to crack, at the same time they lowered the prices to around the half for the same product. If the gameproducers don’t understand the forces behind their losing strategy they will die in their own usurer grave.
Most of the games also must have better demos, for an example they can make in game movies so its realistic and also time limited in game time for each playable map. There are also other ways to go, like locking functions after lets say 10 or 20 hours playing. Anyway there will always be pirates and it have always been. But with the right price, the right demos, and the right gamemovies they will win.

So they have to choose or die. Other will still be there to start and make other games, to the right price at the right time. And will listen to the customers in any question. Also the producers who pay a big attention to updates, bugfixes, and “registered” user special offers like addons will be the winners.

So to win over the piracy they have to play another way, like they do there will be armadas of piracy grooving bigger and bigger, and the bigger the piracy becomes the harder it will be to go the other way and be the winners again.

So choose the right way. Lower the price for the games to a worthy level, and maybe its time to offer some resellers and let the customers buy from a lowprice game site. It’s a new time, in the world. We have to stop a lot of our running for buy and throw. So its time for the mediaproducers to take the step in to the ITAGE.

That’s my opinion and I respect others, but usurers opinion isn’t much for me.
Major 29th February 2008, 23:53 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by plagio
yeah, but than you need to be connected to the internet even to play single player games.

And who the hell doesn't have the internet these days?

Seriously.

People who maybe have it on a lappy, and have no connection, then fine that's a problem, but it's something game developers need to sacrifice in order to raise their sales.
DougEdey 1st March 2008, 00:21 Quote
Lower the price of games? I don't buy PC games anymore (I game on my 360) but when I went into Gamestation most games were between £20 and £25 brand new. The games I buy for my 360 are between £30 and £40 which I am happy to pay because I understand what it's like to put effort into stuff and have it stolen from you.
Bungle 1st March 2008, 00:43 Quote
People complaining that the PC games market is too expensive baffle me. Take Supreme Commander for instance, the game is just over a year old now and you can buy (in th UK at least) the original game and the expansion for......omg £17.99. Company of heroes (original) released just over a year and a half ago + expansion is now£17.99.

Fair enough some people may not be able to justify paying full price for a game, but it doesn't excuse piracy. You simply wait till the price drops into your (justify purchase) bracket. With soo many titles about, old and new, it's not like there's a shortage of quality titles about at a price you can afford.

Fair enough there's been enough bashing of people who pirate games (/guilty as charged). By the same token, people need to stop complaining about the price of PC games. Not everyone can afford new products, so you wait like the rest of us. When your old enough to buy a car, then come and share your sob stories (how much tax for a new car!).
Cthippo 1st March 2008, 07:21 Quote
Here's something about the piracy debate that bugs me...

Lets say me and some other random person both want a game that's being released tomorrow, but neither of us can afford it. I decided to hold off and end up not ever getting around to buying it and the other guy pirates it. What's the difference to the publisher? Sure, I can claim the moral high ground that I didn't pirate it, but the company made exactly the same amount of money off both of us ($0.00), and neither of our actions cost the company anything. Am I, by virtue of choosing not to buy the game, also stealing from the company? For that matter, isn't the person who waits until the game shows up in the bargain bin also hurting their revenues? I mean, they should have paid full RRP for it.

This is a lot more than a theoretical for me, there are a number of games I want, but right now i'm not bringing in much cash (time / money exclusivity principal at work) and so I haven't gotten a new game since HL2E1. I have a hard time seeing how my not buying games is doing any less harm than someone who pirates them. Neither is a lost sale because neither of us would have bought them right away, and we both might buy eventually.

Aside from the fact that some people like to get indignatly self-righteous, I have a hard time coming up with a reason to get mad about piracy.
CardJoe 1st March 2008, 10:57 Quote
By taking the moral high ground and not buying it you are potentially making the publisher money as you'll buy the game later on maybe, though probably at a reduced price. These bargain sales late in the lifetime of a game can make all the difference - just look at (sigh) Beyond Good and Evil. When it was first released it got major accolades, but bombed in the sales. Now, years and years later, people are still raving about it and you can pick the game up for less than a fiver. Those reduced price sales have buoyed the success of the game up so much that the sequel, which was originally canned when the first game failed, is now rumoured to be in development with the original dev team reassembled at Ubisoft.

If the reverse had happened and the game had never sold even at those rock-bottom prices because everyone had pirated it then the developer wouldn't have made ANY money out of the game and the sequel would never materialise. Michel Ancel would be crying his little heart out, instead of massaging his underground hit back to life.
DougEdey 1st March 2008, 11:00 Quote
You can say the same thing about DVDs, piracy is rampant there online but no-one is physically loosing out by your arguement.

Yet I still wait untill I see a £3 bargain on a DVD and buy it.
Kurayamino 1st March 2008, 21:08 Quote
I don't buy the whole we're losing money because of people downloading stuff. I haven't seen the figures... doubt I ever will.... and how do I know what I am seeing is true? The fact is as someone else said, if the devs made good games then there wouldn't be an issue. I myself havent downloaded a game before, but understand why it happens. How can I tell how good a game is if you give me 1 car and 1 track. It's the same with music and films. I'd be more inclinded to buy something that I could listen too for more than 10 seconds. Parhaps having a few tracks, a few cars and having a time limit on the game (so many start ups?) My God I could go on forever about this.... I won't
DougEdey 1st March 2008, 22:19 Quote
So what you're saying is that because you wouldn't have bought the game if piracy was not available you're OK?

Next time you produce something I'll buy a cheap knock off that doesn't work of it and then let you wonder why you're poor.
CardJoe 1st March 2008, 23:19 Quote
So you're saying that if developers made good games there wouldn't be piracy? That's the most moronic arguement I've ever heard since my sister told me Lemmings couldn't be real because they were in a computer game.

Good games get pirated the most of all! Nobody bothers pirating blatantly shite games and games like Half-Life, Call of Duty 4 and so on were so good and so popular that people ended up almost killing them via piracy. That's why COD as a series is getting progressively more console-ish (because console piracy is much harder and less of an issue). Not every developer can do what Valve did and make themselves a secure, profitable platform to publish on.

Just go sit in the corner.
DougEdey 1st March 2008, 23:32 Quote
Do people think that game devs get paid a lot or something and can afford not to be paid for their countless hours of work?
Cthippo 2nd March 2008, 06:43 Quote
OK, lets take a different tack at this. We agree that Steam is pretty piracy resistant. It's vsignificantly harder to pirate valve / steam games than, say EA games (just to pick a random example). We also know that a lot of the valve / steam proiducts are tremendously popular. So if they're both very popular and hard to piurate, shouldn't they be outselling the less good, easier to pirate games by a significant margin?

For that matter, what about the essentially pirate proof MMORPGs? Sure they sell somewhat better than easy to pirate FPS games, but not by the huge order of magnitude that publishers blame on piracy.

FPS games have three options, they can buy a game, they can pirate it, or they can go without. The game companies are asserting that a huge percentage of consumers are pirating and that if they couldn't pirate they would buy.

MMO players have two options, they can buy or they can go without. If the assertions of the publishers were accurate then there would be a massive difference in sales between the genres.

I know this theory has some holes in it, but do you see where I'm going here?

Somewhere in this is the answer to how much impact piracy has. Remember, a pirate who never buys is the same as a consumer who goes without. Both are zeros on the balance sheet.

The only people who matter are the people who actually buy the game. Instread of treating consumers like criminals, companies need to produce games that people want to buy, and ones that those who can afford it will choose to buy. Unfortunatly copy protection and DRM have only made piracy more appealing because those who pirate get a batter expierience than those who purchase.

My own feeling is that piracy is a zero sum. The small number of additional people who would buy if piracy were not an option is offset by the number of people who would not buy if they hadn't tried it first.
CardJoe 2nd March 2008, 11:01 Quote
Agreed - Steam and MMO games are great for avoiding piracy. There are two problems though.

One, the MMO market is over-saturated and there's little room for new developers with WOW and LOTRO already there. Two, Steam isn't hugely popular with some crowds and is known to have a variety of problems - just ask Bindi about when he bought TF2 or nag me about when I bought AudioSurf.

You also have to remember that Steam is massively unpopular inside the industry. If a developer puts his game on steam then he has two problems. The first is that he is massively limiting his audience from the hundred or so million gamers total to the 15 million currently on Steam. True, that audience of Steam is growing - but slowly. Persuading more people on to Steam at this point is incredibly difficult and the main reason Valve is looking at casual games. If somebody isn't using Steam now then it's probably a deliberate choice or lack of awareness - it's very hard to advertise a game released as a Steam exclusive.

Let's take Garry's Mod as an example - one bedroom developer creates a mod for HL2 which is massively, massively popular. Then, at the height of it's popularity and the height of Steams success, he takes the Mod retail. The best deal he manages to broker with Valve is for a 50/50 split of profits from the game and he sets the game at a budget price of $10. So, he has cheap price, large community, large audience, and a great profit share on his side - yet he still only makes £50,000 off of it. A lot, sure, but he's just one man. Plus, you just need to look at my blog stats to see how many people stumble on my blog in an attempt to find ways to pirate the game. If you take that model and apply it to a bigger game then you're making more money probably and have a better profit share, but the other problems will prevent you from generating huge amounts of cash still - and for a big game that money needs to go further too; it needs to pay salaries.

That's why games are often sold in shops and then complemented by Steam sales. This happened with Sin: Episodes and even The Orange Box. Steam sales alone aren't enough to support a game - they need to be in shops and they need to be visible. The problem is that if they are then people will just try to pirate them (unless they sell in shops but then require Steam - but this just pisses people off, alienates more people and doesn't really stop people trying to pirate anyway).

The second problem for developers is publishers. When selling on Steam or online the developer can get profits directly, bypassing the publisher. This was the problem for Valve and Vivendi when Steam first released and Vivendi said "hey, you can't do that we're your publisher." to which Valve said "sod off, it's our game".

If a developer, especially a small one, pisses off a publisher then it can be crippling.

Saying that developers need to make games the people want to buy and at reasonable prices is, frankly, moronic. Developers often make games people want to play and they price them at a point which enables them to survive and grow. Console games which cost £50 are the overpriced ones because those developers needn't worry about piracy. £30 (or 17.99 online) for a PC game is not extortionate (especially when that price rapidly falls and there's a strong second hand market) for a game that took hundreds of people years to make - not when those people all need to be paid.

Go back and read the original news piece behind this discussion. Then look at GTA on the PC, Half-life 2, Quake, BioShock and any other game you liked from the past ten years. It's the big, popular and good games which are most at risk from piracy. Nobody is going to pirate a crap game they don't want to play - but everyone wants to play BioShock and nobody wants to pay for it (simply because they don't understand or see the after effects of that crime), so they pirate it.

Piracy is PRIMARILY hurting the good, clever and respected developers. Indie games can make it in the PC market (look at AudioSurf or Sins of a Solar Empire, even though one person in the discussion for the latter has openly pirated the game) - good, AAA games can't. They need more money to survive and that money is drained away by pirates. When those developers don't want to/can't survive on PC games alone anymore then they'll go elsewhere and you'll be left twiddling your thumbs and looking like an idiot when you whinge about how all good games nowadays are console exclusives. You're bringing that future upon yourself because you refuse to see the difference between purchasing selectively and making good use of demoes and just downloading a pirated version and saving your money for a console game.

Thats the real problem here.
freedom810 2nd March 2008, 12:18 Quote
At the end of the day piracy is everywhere and its never going to stop. Its like global warming and Obesity, people just dont care. The companies can complain all they want but even if they stop making pc games completely there will be some hackers who will just copy even more console games.
Its a bugger we know, is it going to stop? No.
Koolpc 2nd March 2008, 13:17 Quote
There will always be someone that can crack any game and people who will be willing to use it.
CardJoe 2nd March 2008, 14:18 Quote
Yeah - but just because a battle can't be won doesn't mean you should stop fighting.
iwog 2nd March 2008, 15:49 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by CardJoe
Yeah - but just because a battle can't be won doesn't mean you should stop fighting.

But i think it might be time to though. If more support for a keyboard and mouse is developed for the PS3 in conjunction with the ability to mod games due to the HDD inside then i can see the PS3 killing PC gaming. Consoles have nearly all of the pros of PC gaming with less of the cons. You can play online, games are "guaranteed" to work with no need for costly upgrades, they're cheaper once you factor in the cost of a "gaming" mouse and keyboard and wide screen monitor.

If there was universal support for K&M on consoles the two genres that really require it, ie FPS and RTS, would no longer be "better" on the PC and i'd see no reason to keep spending money on my PC to enable it to play the latest and greatest games if my console could play them all after only one outlay.

From a developers point of view consoles are better for them as console piracy is thought to be much harder than PC piracy to the general consumer. I mean most casual/regular gamers will have had at least some experience of piracy on a PC but non of console piracy. To a developer this means they are more confident about being rewarded for their effort with consoles compared to PCs.

TBH, with the ever increasing cost of cutting edge PC gaming and the reduction of costs and mainstream acceptance of consoles i'll be surprised if the AAA gaming sector on the PC doesn't implode in the next 10 years.
CardJoe 2nd March 2008, 17:03 Quote
The fact that one console has pros and cons over another though isn't the be all and end all though. HD-DVD is arguably a better platform than Blu-Ray, but still...

To say that the PS3 is going to kill PC gaming is both melodramatic and flawed and the draws of PC gaming are less to do with input and more to do with status as a historic, enthusiast platform with far greater potential to a hardcore audience and increased value for money (in terms of scope, mods and replayability).

Also bear in mind that the PC industry has an infrastructure to save itself from escalating costs and retail sales. Unlike console gaming which has either syndicated online networks (Live, PSN) and limited focus to a wider market, the PC has a wider focus on a market which is just harder to target and the opportunities for the growth of PC games is far to broad and varied to be summarised by people such as you and I who are, at best, on the periphery of the industry.
CardJoe 2nd March 2008, 17:30 Quote
Oh, and Micheal Fitch has just posted this too. Mike was the Creative Director of Iron Lore Studios, the makers of Titan Quest, who had to had to shut down last year. It's in the news. I'm going to pop this in the Iron Lore discussion and the gaming forum too because I think it's very on the ball and, even though the first part only is relevant to piracy, it's a perfect example of how every little thing matters and how you can help support the developers you like by voting with money.

That said, I personally didn't care for Titan Quest.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Micheal Fitch
Greetings:
So, ILE shut down. This is tangentially related to that, not why they shut down, but part of why it was such a difficult freaking slog trying not to. It's a rough, rough world out there for independent studios who want to make big games, even worse if you're single-team and don't have a successful franchise to ride or a wealthy benefactor. Trying to make it on PC product is even tougher, and here's why.

Piracy
Piracy. Yeah, that's right, I said it. No, I don't want to re-hash the endless "piracy spreads awareness", "I only pirate because there's no demo", "people who pirate wouldn't buy the game anyway" round-robin. Been there, done that. I do want to point to a couple of things, though.

One, there are other costs to piracy than just lost sales. For example, with TQ, the game was pirated and released on the nets before it hit stores. It was a fairly quick-and-dirty crack job, and in fact, it missed a lot of the copy-protection that was in the game. One of the copy-protection routines was keyed off the quest system, for example. You could start the game just fine, but when the quest triggered, it would do a security check, and dump you out if you had a pirated copy. There was another one in the streaming routine. So, it's a couple of days before release, and I start seeing people on the forums complaining about how buggy the game is, how it crashes all the time. A lot of people are talking about how it crashes right when you come out of the first cave. Yeah, that's right. There was a security check there.

So, before the game even comes out, we've got people bad-mouthing it because their pirated copies crash, even though a legitimate copy won't. We took a lot of **** on this, completely undeserved mind you. How many people decided to pick up the pirated version because it had this reputation and they didn't want to risk buying something that didn't work? Talk about your self-fulfilling prophecy.

One guy went so far as to say he'd bought the retail game and it was having the exact same crashes, so it must be the game itself. This was one of the most vocal detractors, and we got into it a little bit. He swore up and down that he'd done everything above-board, installed it on a clean machine, updated everything, still getting the same crashes. It was our fault, we were stupid, our programmers didn't know how to make games - some other guy asked "do they code with their feet?". About a week later, he realized that he'd forgotten to re-install his BIOS update after he wiped the machine. He fixed that, all his crashes went away. At least he was man enough to admit it.

So, for a game that doesn't have a Madden-sized advertising budget, word of mouth is your biggest hope, and here we are, before the game even releases, getting bashed to hell and gone by people who can't even be bothered to actually pay for the game. What was the ultimate impact of that? Hard to measure, but it did get mentioned in several reviews. Think about that the next time you read "we didn't have any problems running the game, but there are reports on the internet that people are having crashes."

Two, the numbers on piracy are really astonishing. The research I've seen pegs the piracy rate at between 70-85% on PC in the US, 90%+ in Europe, off the charts in Asia. I didn't believe it at first. It seemed way too high. Then I saw that Bioshock was selling 5 to 1 on console vs. PC. And Call of Duty 4 was selling 10 to 1. These are hardcore games, shooters, classic PC audience stuff. Given the difference in install base, I can't believe that there's that big of a difference in who played these games, but I guess there can be in who actually payed for them.

Let's dig a little deeper there. So, if 90% of your audience is stealing your game, even if you got a little bit more, say 10% of that audience to change their ways and pony up, what's the difference in income? Just about double. That's right, double. That's easily the difference between commercial failure and success. That's definitely the difference between doing okay and founding a lasting franchise. Even if you cut that down to 1% - 1 out of every hundred people who are pirating the game - who would actually buy the game, that's still a 10% increase in revenue. Again, that's big enough to make the difference between breaking even and making a profit.

Titan Quest did okay. We didn't lose money on it. But if even a tiny fraction of the people who pirated the game had actually spent some god-damn money for their 40+ hours of entertainment, things could have been very different today. You can bitch all you want about how piracy is your god-given right, and none of it matters anyway because you can't change how people behave... whatever. Some really good people made a seriously good game, and they might still be in business if piracy weren't so rampant on the PC. That's a fact.

Hardware
Enough about piracy. Let's talk about hardware vendors. Trying to make a game for PC is a freaking nightmare, and these guys make it harder all the time. Integrated video chips; integrated audio. These were two of our biggest headaches. Not only does this crap make people think - and wrongly - that they have a gaming-capable PC when they don't, the drive to get the cheapest components inevitably means you've got hardware out there with little or no driver support, marginal adherence to standards, and sometimes bizarre conflicts with other hardware.

And it just keeps getting worse. CD/DVD drives with bad firmware, video cards that look like they should be a step-up from a previous generation, but actually aren't, drivers that need to be constantly updated, separate rendering paths for optimizing on different chips, oh my god. Put together consumers who want the cheapest equipment possible with the best performance, manufacturers who don't give a **** what happens to their equipment once they ship it, and assemblers who need to work their margins everywhere possible, and you get a lot of shitty hardware out there, in innumerable configurations that you can't possibly test against. But, it's always the game's fault when something doesn't work.

Even if you get over the hump on hardware compatibility - and god knows, the hardware vendors are constantly making it worse - if you can, you still need to deal with software conflicts. There are a lot of apps running on people's machines that they're not even aware of, or have become such a part of the computer they don't even think of them as being apps anymore. IM that's always on; peer-to-peer clients running in the background; not to mention the various adware and malware crap that people pick up doing things they really shouldn't. Trying to run a CPU and memory heavy app in that environment is a nightmare. But, again, it's always the game's fault if it doesn't work.

Audience
Which brings me to the audience. There's a lot of stupid people out there. Now, don't get me wrong, there's a lot of very savvy people out there, too, and there were some great folks in the TQ community who helped us out a lot. But, there's a lot of stupid people. Basic, basic stuff, like updating your drivers, or de-fragging your hard drive, or having antivirus so your machine isn't a teetering pile of rogue programs. PC folks want to have the freedom to do whatever the hell they want with their machines, and god help them they will do it; more power to them, really. But god forbid something that they've done - or failed to do - creates a problem with your game. There are few better examples of the "it can't possibly be my fault" culture in the west than gaming forums.

Reviews
And while I'm at it, I don't want to spare the reviewers either. We had one reviewer - I won't name names, you can find it if you look hard enough - who missed the fact that you can teleport from wherever you are in TQ back to any of the major towns you've visited. So, this guy was hand-carting all of his stuff back to town every time his inventory was full. Through the entire game. Now, not only was this in the manual, and in the roll-over tooltips for the UI, but it was also in the tutorial, the very first time you walk past one of these giant pads that lights up like a beacon to the heavens. Nonetheless, he missed it, and he commented in his review how tedious this was and how much he missed being able to portal back to town. When we - and lots of our fans - pointed out that this was the reviewer's fault, not the game's, they amended the review. But, they didn't change the score. Do you honestly think that not having to run back to town all the time to sell your stuff wouldn't have made the game a better experience?

We had another reviewer who got crashes on both the original and the expansion pack. We worked with him to figure out what was going on; the first time, it was an obscure peripheral that was causing the crash, a classic hardware conflict for a type of hardware that very, very few people have. The second time, it was in a pre-release build that we had told him was pre-release. After identifying the problem, getting him around it, and verifying that the bug was a known issue and had been fixed in the interim, he still ran the story with a prominent mention of this bug. With friends like that...


Alright, I'm done. Making PC products is not all fun and games. It's an uphill slog, definitely. I'm a lifelong PC gamer, and hope to continue to work on PC games in the future, but man, they sure don't make it easy.

Best, Mike
Mankz 2nd March 2008, 17:31 Quote
^^ Thats a big quote.
Cthippo 2nd March 2008, 18:27 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by CardJoe
Oh, and Micheal Fitch has just posted this too. Mike was the Creative Director of Iron Lore Studios, the makers of Titan Quest, who had to had to shut down last year. It's in the news. I'm going to pop this in the Iron Lore discussion and the gaming forum too because I think it's very on the ball and, even though the first part only is relevant to piracy, it's a perfect example of how every little thing matters and how you can help support the developers you like by voting with money.

A couple thoughts on that. First off, in regards to piracy they totally shot themselves in the foot, and he admits it while blaming someone else. He says they were dependent on word of mouth advertising, but they created issues for people who had pirated the game, and then when the pirates discovered those issues they complained the game was broken and others didn't buy said game. Let me shorten that a bit...

"We did something that made the game buggy for some users and they complained about it which caused other people not to buy our game"

One has to wonder how many paying sales were lost because of that choice to include anti-piracy measures. If they had realeased a game without security checks then people wouldn't be complaining about it and they wouldn't have gotten all the negative comments.

In that same paragraph he talkes about the user who had to update his BIOS to play the game without it thinking it was pirated. Maybe it's just me, but that seems to be asking a bit much of the customer. If someone pays good money for a game they expect it to work. Sure, that's a bit unreasonable, perhaps even unrealistic, but that's the expectation and if you can't meet that expectation you're going to have a pissed off customer (who can't return the game for a refund) and who is going to tell everyone they know what a POS your game is.

Yeah, it's hard being a developer in a time when 90% of people are pirates and everyone expects your product to run on any hardware out there. Get used to it. You can't change people so either adapt, or die. No, it's not fair, but no one ever said live was fair.
ou7blaze 2nd March 2008, 19:00 Quote
I have pirated games before but I buy my games now, normally play the demo and read reviews before getting a game.

I actually like to PAY for things. I like to OWN my game in cd case have the manual you know.

I have to agree with Glider that if the game makers tried to be more creative in the types of games that they came out with then there MIGHT be less pirating. But then I might just be completely wrong...
LeMaltor 2nd March 2008, 19:03 Quote
Quote:
word of mouth is your biggest hope

And they went belly up you say They don't advertise, no one buys it.

As for COD4, it's a few hours long singleplayer, did the storywriter die a day or so after starting the story, we got the intro then it moved into what seemed like the main story and then it ended. :( The multiplayer, levels and perks? lol Shame I am not 12 anymore
DXR_13KE 2nd March 2008, 22:01 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cthippo
A couple thoughts on that. First off, in regards to piracy they totally shot themselves in the foot, and he admits it while blaming someone else. He says they were dependent on word of mouth advertising, but they created issues for people who had pirated the game, and then when the pirates discovered those issues they complained the game was broken and others didn't buy said game. Let me shorten that a bit...

"We did something that made the game buggy for some users and they complained about it which caused other people not to buy our game"

One has to wonder how many paying sales were lost because of that choice to include anti-piracy measures. If they had realeased a game without security checks then people wouldn't be complaining about it and they wouldn't have gotten all the negative comments.

In that same paragraph he talkes about the user who had to update his BIOS to play the game without it thinking it was pirated. Maybe it's just me, but that seems to be asking a bit much of the customer. If someone pays good money for a game they expect it to work. Sure, that's a bit unreasonable, perhaps even unrealistic, but that's the expectation and if you can't meet that expectation you're going to have a pissed off customer (who can't return the game for a refund) and who is going to tell everyone they know what a POS your game is.

Yeah, it's hard being a developer in a time when 90% of people are pirates and everyone expects your product to run on any hardware out there. Get used to it. You can't change people so either adapt, or die. No, it's not fair, but no one ever said live was fair.

^^^ that and i look in a surprised way when devs panic like headless chickens when anti-piracy measures prevent paying customers from playing the game and pirates are playing it nice...... i wonder why.... :edit: on this, i think if they spent less on anti-piracy measures they would profit more...

[rant] and about the price being made for the market and that current prices are fair...... that is BS... really, how can you ask 50% more money for a game/console/software/music/album in a place were people earn less and then they put their hands on their hands when they see the levels of piracy? don't they know that people know the prices of stuff in other countries and how they are cheaper? don't they know money is not elastic for people with shallow pockets (aka almost everyone) ? "THEY ARE NOT BUYING OUR EXPENSIVE STUFF!! IT IS PIRACY FAULT! IT IS NOT US, IT IS THEM!!!!" [/rant]

IMHO i consider piracy as a side effect of some phenomenon.... like when you are have the flu and get a fever, in the case of the industry the side effect of what is wrong is piracy.... they just need to figure out what is wrong and fix it before it is to late..... and i think it is already to late.....
Ryu_ookami 2nd March 2008, 22:22 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by DXR_13KE
they just need to figure out what is wrong and fix it before it is to late..... and i think it is already to late.....

QFT!!
CardJoe 2nd March 2008, 22:23 Quote
As I said though, you guys are here saying this stuff, yet you too will be affected and hurt if the PC games industry collapses because of attitudes like your own - then you'll have nobody else to blame.

I agree it's a case of adapt or die - but you can't logically put that in the same sentence that you tell a developer not to include anti-piracy measures as a way of adapting. For this developer, they tried to adapt on a the only scale reasonable to them and they died because of it. If they hadn't put these measures in then they would have died faster. (Iron Lore did advertise btw, but advertisements were targetted and mainly in print magazines).

At the end of the day, I don't care what arguements you put up to support piracy because the reality is actually quite simple. A lot of people work very hard to make games. You steal games. That is a crime and just because you likely won't get caught doesn't mean it is any less wrong or damaging to the industry for many of the reasons in the above quote. The affect of that crime damages a past time I, and many others (including yourselves probably) hold dear. In order to encourage creativity in this industry all you need to do is stop committing doing something illegal and stop defending it, popularising it and avoiding the core of the issue with excuses about demos, advertising and "make good games and I won't steal them" answers.

Bottom line; you are committing a crime. That is wrong. You are taking money away from people who have earned it and who often deserve it. I don't know what you guys do for a living but try equating it into your own industry. Personally, if somewhere like Kotaku ripped off an article of mine then I know I'd be pissed and justifiably so.

I'm not going to take this rant any further right now. I'm honestly just very disappointed in anyone in the bit-tech community who continues to pirate after seeing a developer like this, to give just one example, go down partly as a result of piracy - or who sees COD4 become more consoleised as a result of piracy. Maybe I'm naive, but I thought bit-tech readers were better than that.
Ryu_ookami 2nd March 2008, 22:49 Quote
To be honest I would be more inclined to take the guys rant seriously if EVERY single reason he gave wasn't some ones elses thought.

no one brought our game its must be the reviewers fault for giving a review that wasn't favorable

our game doesn't work with the hardware its all the hardware developers fault

no one ones buying our game therefore every one MUST have copied it illegally

our game doesn't work on your system its your fault.

I apologise for sounding over the top but asking some one having to update their bios just to get a game to work sounds over the top.

so to take his rants (i mean points 1 at a time)

1 reviewers = everyone entitled to their own opinion. If the reviewer thought that he didn't like the game then so be it. I don't think everyone is going to read 1 or 2 reviews and then say "nope never buying that games its so bad", however if you have 3 or 4 bad reviews all saying the same thing then people are going to take notice and so should you have and tried to find out what they thought was wrong with it.

2. Hardware = hardware is CONSTANTLY being updated everyone knows that and its the reason must game companies try to anticipate whats going to be developed next see dx10 as an example.

3. Pirates = yes, they may have cost the company a huge chunk of the games profits however other companies seem to be able to make a profit despite the pirates and I'm not saying pirating something is right or wrong I believe that its something for each individual to decide for themselves.

4. audience = yes, some people will have ridiculous expectations as to a game status after all i would like elite to work in full graphics using dx10 and using my pc's hardware to its limits and i would also like a flying horse but its never going to happen. However when a game is produced surely its only common sense to program it to fit the most common pc setups or the widest combination of hardware possible to increase your audience.

if for even one second he had said "as a company we believe that percentage x of the reasons I have mentioned have caused the company to fail, however in hindsight we could have done something before it got to that stage or could have planned for it slightly better". I would have more sympathy for him. Yes its sad the company failed no one likes seeing more people out of work but some of the blame surely has to fall on the people running the company and their lack of understanding of how much damage would be caused to the company by the 4 points he mentioned.

and sorry i know that the thread was originally about CoD4 piracy but the huge long quote got my goat for some reason.
completemadness 2nd March 2008, 22:49 Quote
Its funny you say that we will push people to develop for consoles by pirating

But its far far easier to pirate a console game, why? because everyone relies on the console hardware, pop a £40 chip in and all the protection is gone, its as easy as ripping/burning the CD/DVD
The 360 and PS3 have made this much harder due to firmware updates, but the modchips/hackers have adapted

Piracy is an interesting subject, but because its illegal, getting legitimate (or even decent) facts is nigh on impossible
Jipa 2nd March 2008, 23:45 Quote
I bought Company of Heroes for 50 €. Then came the Opposing fronts which I bought for 40 €. After spending 90 € on a goddamn pile of code I'm kinda expecting to get a working game, but nope. The Relic Offline works as intended and drops two-three times a day and nowadays one has to be online to even play the singleplayer. This kind of experiences set a poor student back quite a lot. I love the game and if only it worked, the somewhat wasted 90 € wouldn't bother so much.

I loved the CoD:UO and kinda liked the CoD2 and decided to try CoD4 as well. I found it not working and thus didn't bother buying it either. The demo worked, but was ridiculously short and the real thing fails to start. I'm happy I didn't buy it. I guess there's a way to get it work, but tbh I couldn't be bothered to read through forums just for some tricks to get a game to work.

I feel the pain of the game industry, but can live with the fact that most people have downloaded games/programs/movies. Most of the games suck anyway :)
iwog 2nd March 2008, 23:51 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by completemadness
Its funny you say that we will push people to develop for consoles by pirating

But its far far easier to pirate a console game, why? because everyone relies on the console hardware, pop a £40 chip in and all the protection is gone, its as easy as ripping/burning the CD/DVD
The 360 and PS3 have made this much harder due to firmware updates, but the modchips/hackers have adapted

Piracy is an interesting subject, but because its illegal, getting legitimate (or even decent) facts is nigh on impossible

But to the average consumer getting a modchip isnt something they would even consider let alone know where to start looking. Plus the fact that 1st and 2nd generation mod chips require a fair amount of soldering to get them to function something that the average console gamer would find incredibly off putting. And if there are specialist services that offer to solder them on for a fee there's always the risk that you're gonna get ripped off and they'll steal your console which you couldnt exactly report them for other wise you'd have to say why you were voiding the warranty and installing an illegal piece of hardware. Plus once you have a chipped console you still need to find game roms to burn or have an inbuilt ripping method.

This contrasted with the much simpler method of PC piracy which is download torrent with cracks included. These leads me to believe that console piracy is much lower than PC piracy and i dont see that changing any time soon.
Ryu_ookami 3rd March 2008, 00:36 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by iwog
if there are specialist services that offer to solder them on for a fee there's always the risk that you're gonna get ripped off and they'll steal your console which you couldnt exactly report them for other wise you'd have to say why you were voiding the warranty and installing an illegal piece of hardware.

the hardware itself isn't illegal otherwise it wouldn't be manufactured.
Quote:
Originally Posted by iwog
Plus once you have a chipped console you still need to find game roms to burn or have an inbuilt ripping method.

you can I believe download console games via torrents as well (I don't play consoles so I'm not a hundred percent sure but a quick search though torrent finder seemed to find a load of PS2/PS3 etc Games.
Quote:
Originally Posted by iwog
This contrasted with the much simpler method of PC piracy which is download torrent with cracks included. These leads me to believe that console piracy is much lower than PC piracy and i dont see that changing any time soon.

to be honest I don't think its EVERY going to be possible to say how much of game company losses are down to piracy and how much is down to people just not liking the game enough to buy it as we will never know how many people truly only copy games with no intent of buying the original.
DXR_13KE 3rd March 2008, 00:47 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by iwog
But to the average consumer getting a modchip isnt something they would even consider let alone know where to start looking. Plus the fact that 1st and 2nd generation mod chips require a fair amount of soldering to get them to function something that the average console gamer would find incredibly off putting. And if there are specialist services that offer to solder them on for a fee there's always the risk that you're gonna get ripped off and they'll steal your console which you couldnt exactly report them for other wise you'd have to say why you were voiding the warranty and installing an illegal piece of hardware. Plus once you have a chipped console you still need to find game roms to burn or have an inbuilt ripping method.

This contrasted with the much simpler method of PC piracy which is download torrent with cracks included. These leads me to believe that console piracy is much lower than PC piracy and i dont see that changing any time soon.

i will tell you a story:

there was once a guy, who got a nice new PS1 with a mod chip and 10 games for 150€, he then proceeded to download and buy pirated games, the end.

if things are now as they were those days..... watch out! let piracy remain on PCs, if it jumps onto consoles it will spread like wild fire.....

what i feel about the industry is that they are in a glass room that is getting hot.... and hot.... and hotter... they should get of their asses and do something efficient about it, maybe open a door or a window.... what do they do? they blame sweat.

PS: went to a common torrent site to see if they had xbox 360 and ps3 ISOs.... yeah..... they have some....

edit: i am going to try to make a paralel analogy

the pie maker is happy, he selling lots of pies, but times change and his customers want their pies cheaper and/or better and/or more modern, what does he do? instead of making pies the way the customers want and sell them the way the customer want he gets out of the pie business and enters the pizza business.... and the people loose those amazing tasty pies.... that could be a lot better.
iwog 3rd March 2008, 00:59 Quote
Yes torrenting is how you get your console roms but the point is that torrent, mount/burn, install is much easier than chip, torrent, burn, play. And whist the mod chip itself is not illegal in most countries (its completely illegal in france if i remember my purchase of one) i think the installation of one is, hence the ban on a discussion of this nature within the forum.

The main point i'm try to get across is that when you buy a PC you buy all the hardware tools you'll need to pirate games and the software is free or at least pirateable. But to do the same thing on a console there is the need for additonal expense in the form of a mod chip, the cost of buying pirated games and the hassle of finding someone who sells them OR the cost of a PC with internet to do your own piracy. Its inheritantly not as easy to pirate on a console compared to the PC.
Cthippo 3rd March 2008, 01:39 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by CardJoe
In order to encourage creativity in this industry all you need to do is stop committing doing something illegal and stop defending it, popularising it and avoiding the core of the issue with excuses about demos, advertising and "make good games and I won't steal them" answers.

NO NO NO!!!

This is what drives me crazy, the assertion that zero piracy = more sales. If you want to encourage creativity you have to actually BUY THE GAME!. Merely stopping piracy will NOT help developers. My point, which seems to be missed consistently, is that there are lots more people willing to pirate a game than there are people willing or able to buy the game. I don't pirate, does that mean I'm helping the industry? No, because I also don't buy games when I can't afford them, and most of the games out there I wouldn't buy if they were charging 50 cents, much less 50 dollars.

Another point, this is NOT a black and white issue. It's not a matter of anyone who doesn't hate pirates is one. It may well be that PC gaming as we know it is dying, but the causes are a whole lot more complicated that piracy.
Bladestorm 3rd March 2008, 02:16 Quote
I think the consumer doesn't trust the publishers (and to a lesser extent developers) to put out a game that is polished or even finished or to treat them as people whilst buying or if they have a problem.

It seems pretty clear that the publishers (and to a lesser extent the developers, usually) don't trust the consumer to actually pay for games.

The result of the first is piracy, the result of the second is copy protection. While I'm sure you could demonstrate that copy protection stops a small minority of people from pirating, its pretty clear if the figures that are touted are true, that it isn't stopping the vast majority from going ahead and pirating. I suspect what it does do, even when it works flawlessly is drive further into the minds of those who have paid for games that the companies consider them no better than the criminals and when it doesn't work flawlessly, reduce even further confidence in publishers putting out games that work.

Now dropping copy protection wouldn't automatically fix anything, might scare a lot of managers/shareholders/acountants and might cause a loss in sales (of how much, I couldn't say, though there have been some games that went without and did better than those with ..) so it isn't something that can just be thrown out there as an easy fix (there absolutely isn't one) but I personally doubt it would hurt matters in the long run.

I think if there is a solution to piracy from the publishers side its going to be making a real commitment to quality and treating customers as well .. customers, rather than criminals so that they feel enough confidence to go out and buy games. Removing copy protection would probably go well hand in hand with that sort of aproach, as well as providing customers with service and incentives they wouldn't get if they pirated - basically to reverse the situation as it stands now, where piracy can result in a quicker and easier experience to aquiring and getting into a game than the legal channels and where support can be in cases as bad as none.

Hardware vendors definetely have a fair share of blame to take, since the days when you could be reasonably sure a game would run on any given set of hardware are long gone, which won't help confidence much either, though obviously publishers and developers can't do much about that one but spend even more time and money trying to compensate for it.

My own personal take is don't pirate, pay for your games. But I can't really claim any major moral high ground because the final straw didn't occur as much out of that (Though I do feel a bit better in myself for being legit), as it did out of simply being jaded to a point of realization that I was better off waiting something like 6-24 months after games have been released and picking them up cheaply and in numbers, than I was buying a smaller number I was quite interested in at launch and pirating ones I wouldn't have otherwise bought as I did once upon a time.
keef247 3rd March 2008, 02:19 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by naokaji
if they want to stop piracy of games then they need to switch their stupid copy portections and cd key system to accounts like mmorpgs have them.

noone has ever managed to play wow or eq2 with a version they didnt pay for. they could even go for the cc payment to make sure that you are who you claim during registering the account. instead of a monthly fee they could drop the retail price to some very low amount and then charge rest upon account creation.

only one person can login with the same account at once (so you dont "lend" it to a friend and then both play with only one purchase) + whitelist of valid cdkeys (to stop keygens and if someone generates a valid key the person who bought it simply scans the receipt, sends it to the developers, they ban the one that created the key with a keygen) + identity verrification (noones going to comit a crime if he has to leave his full name and address at the crimescene).
that would surely take care of the problem.

anyway, cod4 is a really good game, definitly worth paying what they ask for.

bittttt of a bold claim?didn't do your research did you.wow is SO SIMPLE to hack.i don't do mmorpg's (i like my cod4 xboxlive/css online on my pc personally) nor do i condone piracy but without risking flaming shall we say the fact that its one url you'd have to alter to connect to a hacked server is beyond simplistic. i know this because people who are obsessed with it i know have made their own servers and my mate pays for it legit and is annoyed at the fact they get it for free.
wasn't flaming you just make sure you do a google before trying to use examples like that. the fact that wow also doesn't need a crack to play without the disc seeing as you get your free months trial and downloaded direct from blizzard makes it even more childs play... and i know you can do these kind of things with source as your always getting dodgy hacked servers / cheating players ruining it so it doesn't surprise me in the slightest that cod now has adopted this fraud.as for ut etc they along with quake have also always had this problem sadly. i guess theres always gonna be a way around something and a challenge that people will always want to take up for skill/illegal reasons... heh surely they should be the ones working on the other side to prevent it like when hackers hack a bank etc then ask for a job in the security dept lol.fair game.beats taking an interview lmao
CardJoe 3rd March 2008, 07:54 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cthippo
NO NO NO!!!

This is what drives me crazy, the assertion that zero piracy = more sales. If you want to encourage creativity you have to actually BUY THE GAME!. Merely stopping piracy will NOT help developers. My point, which seems to be missed consistently, is that there are lots more people willing to pirate a game than there are people willing or able to buy the game. I don't pirate, does that mean I'm helping the industry? No, because I also don't buy games when I can't afford them, and most of the games out there I wouldn't buy if they were charging 50 cents, much less 50 dollars.

Another point, this is NOT a black and white issue. It's not a matter of anyone who doesn't hate pirates is one. It may well be that PC gaming as we know it is dying, but the causes are a whole lot more complicated that piracy.

I realise that not everyone would buy - but going on what Mike is saying (plus others who've said similar) even if just 5% of pirates bought the game then it can be the difference between a studio surviving or not. Not everyone would buy the game if they couldn't pirate it - but many would, even if they waited to get it cheaply or second hand.

And, actually, this is a black and white issue. Not for the reasons you've said which you've somehow extrapolated erroneously, but because piracy is illegal and does have a damaging effect on the industry - you can call that lost sales or you can call that the sad reality of anti-piracy measures, the point is that it clearly does effect the industry for the worse. If you are pirating then you are breaking the law and damaging the industry. If you aren't pirating then you are supporting the developers you really like, legally solid and still getting access to good games even if you have to wait a little to get them.

For me, it's a matter of respect. I've actually seen the amount of years and manpower that goes into creating a game and I've decided that out of respect for that dedication and commitment I will not steal the games. I fail to see how thats an arguement you can logically and sensibly argue with and I think you've yet to put up a serious reason to justify piracy. Cost is the only real reason I can see - and even that falls down when you look at the piracy figures and sales costs between console and PC games.
Jipa 3rd March 2008, 08:01 Quote
Oh btw about this part:
Quote:
Originally Posted by the rant guy

Integrated video chips; integrated audio. These were two of our biggest headaches. Not only does this crap make people think - and wrongly - that they have a gaming-capable PC when they don't, the drive to get the cheapest components inevitably means you've got hardware out there with little or no driver support, marginal adherence to standards, and sometimes bizarre conflicts with other hardware.

I had issues with integrated sound card (I had to uninstall the drivers...) Is that really a feature? And what makes integrated sounds so impossible to get along with? Ofcourse integrated graphics just don't cut it, but damn, sounds really should.

Is he claiming that every gamer should have the UBER GAMER F4T4L1TY CHRYSTALIZER EAX Creative or not play any games at all? :) Gaming capable sound card just sounds like utter BS to me.
CardJoe 3rd March 2008, 08:39 Quote
No, he's just pointing out that different hardware configurations, which are constantly going out of date, make it harder to design games for the PC. Personally, I think that's something a developer should know beforehand and be prepared for when going in.
Hamish 3rd March 2008, 11:21 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by CardJoe
you've yet to put up a serious reason to justify piracy.
i dont think anyone is actually trying to justify piracy, it IS wrong in the end but i think its impact has been overblown somewhat recently
i'd still very much like to know where those 90%+ piracy rate numbers came from or if he just invented them...
Bladestorm 3rd March 2008, 14:58 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by CardJoe
I realise that not everyone would buy - but going on what Mike is saying (plus others who've said similar) even if just 5% of pirates bought the game then it can be the difference between a studio surviving or not. Not everyone would buy the game if they couldn't pirate it - but many would, even if they waited to get it cheaply or second hand.

And, actually, this is a black and white issue. Not for the reasons you've said which you've somehow extrapolated erroneously, but because piracy is illegal and does have a damaging effect on the industry - you can call that lost sales or you can call that the sad reality of anti-piracy measures, the point is that it clearly does effect the industry for the worse. If you are pirating then you are breaking the law and damaging the industry. If you aren't pirating then you are supporting the developers you really like, legally solid and still getting access to good games even if you have to wait a little to get them.

For me, it's a matter of respect. I've actually seen the amount of years and manpower that goes into creating a game and I've decided that out of respect for that dedication and commitment I will not steal the games. I fail to see how thats an arguement you can logically and sensibly argue with and I think you've yet to put up a serious reason to justify piracy. Cost is the only real reason I can see - and even that falls down when you look at the piracy figures and sales costs between console and PC games.

The vast majority of people who pirate know it is clearly wrong but do it anyway.

On a related note I saw a bit by some psychologists lately, testing honesty vs human relations. What they did was setup an "honesty box" in a london shopping center street, which had a stack of newspapers and a box for putting payment into and then left while they secretly filmed it.

For the first attempt they put up a sign saying "Please take a newspaper and leave payment in the box - the management", a total of one person paid for a paper they took.

For the second attempt they replaced the sign with a similar one which included a picture of a stern-looking businessman, a total of three people paid for papers this time and a couple took multiples.

For the third attempt they replaced the sign with one including a smiling, friendly-looking woman, this time about 85% of the people who took papers paid for them.

They put forward that humans are social creatures and our sense of right and wrong and obedience to rules and laws came down to how much we personally related to whoever was on the other side - with a faceless corporation getting minimal respect and law-abidance and someone they felt they would like personally getting the most.
DXR_13KE 3rd March 2008, 15:13 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by CardJoe
I realise that not everyone would buy - but going on what Mike is saying (plus others who've said similar) even if just 5% of pirates bought the game then it can be the difference between a studio surviving or not. Not everyone would buy the game if they couldn't pirate it - but many would, even if they waited to get it cheaply or second hand.

IMO i think of the next:

from the studios point of view

the client buying the game = X cash in, Y cash out (where X>>Y)
the client going without = 0 cash in, 0 cash out (for that particular person)
the client doing piracy = 0 cash in (it is kind of equal to being without) , 0 cash out (for that particular person)
the client buys a foreign cheaper game = W cash in, V cash out (were W<X and V<Y, but sometimes V is near Y and W is near Y)
the client stealing a game from the store = X cash in (the store has paid for the game already), Y cash out (transport and stuff, but usually X>>Y)
the client lending a game N times = X/N cash in for each person that plays the game, Y cash out (here if N is big then Y may be big enough for it to not be profitable)
the client buying a Mnd hand game = X/M cash in for each person that plays the game, Y cash out (here if M is big then Y may be big enough for it to not be profitable, in this case the possibility of M being big is higher than lending a game to your friends and family)


of the above, the ones i think that are more damaging are the 2 last ones.... if piracy became ridiculously illegal these will take over, and they will cause more damage than piracy..... at least that is what i think.... and of course piracy would go deep underground, from mouth to mouth and hand to hand, like in the old days....

i am not trying to prove that piracy is good, it is not good, its like fever, a growl in the stomach, a chill, a pain in the chest.... it is a side effect of something that is wrong.... and instead of whining about piracy and how it kills "good" developers they should concentrate on finding the cure for what is wrong and not combat the side effects, kill it by the root.... but it may be to late
impar 3rd March 2008, 16:15 Quote
Greetings!
Quote:
Originally Posted by CardJoe
Piracy is PRIMARILY hurting the good, clever and respected developers. Indie games can make it in the PC market (look at AudioSurf or Sins of a Solar Empire, even though one person in the discussion for the latter has openly pirated the game) - good, AAA games can't. They need more money to survive and that money is drained away by pirates. When those developers don't want to/can't survive on PC games alone anymore then they'll go elsewhere and you'll be left twiddling your thumbs and looking like an idiot when you whinge about how all good games nowadays are console exclusives. You're bringing that future upon yourself because you refuse to see the difference between purchasing selectively and making good use of demoes and just downloading a pirated version and saving your money for a console game.

Thats the real problem here.
Yep.
Quote:
Originally Posted by DXR_13KE
from the studios point of view
...
Games cost money to develop; A certain number of copies need to be sold to cover those costs; The more pirates and P2P feeloaders are, the less likely it is to have games sales; Less game sales hurt the game developers.
Its not only a matter of profting from the game making activity but also a matter of covering the increasing production costs of AAA titles.
Lepermessiah 3rd March 2008, 16:22 Quote
give me a freaking break, people arguing no piracy would not equal more sales? Come on, if even 10% of people who pirate bought the games, sales would increase. Some people WOULD buy if they had no choice. To see so staunchly defend piracy on this board, u see how it is an uphill battle, people make themselves believe anything. Piracy is hurting PC gaming.
completemadness 3rd March 2008, 18:28 Quote
Ok lets clear a few things up here

1st. When i said about mod chips, if studios move to consoles "chipping" will become more popular
Once you have put a chip in the console, that's it, there is _no_ protection left - IE, its a lot easier to pirate a game on a console once you have a chip (on PC a new hack needs to be made for each game, and update)

2nd. You assume that 1 download = 1 lost sale
I'm not going to lye here, Ive downloaded quite a few games, but in the end Ive only every bought the ones i really play, the ones i download i often play for a day or so, and then get bored and never touch it

Sure, if there was no piracy i would have to buy it, but the question is, would i buy it?
I also downloaded DoW and found it to be quite fun, and bought the trilogy - would i have bought it if i hadn't downloaded? probably not tbh

Maybe i'm an odd ball here, but i believe that many piraters (who think about what their doing) probably buy the games that they really play
DXR_13KE 3rd March 2008, 21:09 Quote
Lepermessiah, if 0,0001% of all pirates bought a game sales would go up, you don't need 10%...

and no, go ask any of your friends that pirate: "would you buy the same amount of games you download?" or "what would you do if you could not pirate"

i will respond to both:
A1: no way
A2: i would probably buy second hand.... meaning that the maker of the game gets ziltch...

IMO if piracy disappeared second hand shops will be on the copyright holders scopes, as would lending games to friends and family, and then here we would be again, some saying that it is a crime equal to stealing a car and others saying that they have the right.... me? i am in the middle, i pirate and ask friends for lent games when i am low, and i buy the stuff i like when i am high.... its a balance, i am currently buying more games and hardware due to piracy, ironic isn't it.... either that or i am not human...
Cthippo 3rd March 2008, 22:20 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lepermessiah
give me a freaking break, people arguing no piracy would not equal more sales? Come on, if even 10% of people who pirate bought the games, sales would increase. Some people WOULD buy if they had no choice. To see so staunchly defend piracy on this board, u see how it is an uphill battle, people make themselves believe anything. Piracy is hurting PC gaming.

That's true, some people would buy if they couldn't pirate. No one's arguing that. I am however arguing that those additional sales would be offset by the people who would not buy a game they had not tried first. I can certainlky see a situation where an end of piracy contributes directly to the death of PC gaming.

Lets say tomorrow it was impossible to pirate games. We'll say that some of the people who used to pirate go out and buy, and that an equal number of people who would have bought if they could have tried it decide not to. Just for arguement, lets say there is even a slight blip in sales the first month. Problem is, after that, there is no one on the servers to play with because the majority of people who used to be on were pirates and the people who did buy the game have jobs so they play less than the people who formerly populated the servers. Gamers considering where to spend their money may well decide to go to consoles because there are more people to play with and you can rent console games to try before you purchase them. In the end there will be fewer people playing PC games, and it will be harder for new ideas to get into the marketplace. Developers looking at the market will definatrly decide to put their resources into the console market and the PC will become a platform for small indie developers.

Sure, you can argue with my assumptoions on this scenario, but I think it's quite plausable.
Hamish 3rd March 2008, 22:41 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cthippo
Problem is, after that, there is no one on the servers to play with because the majority of people who used to be on were pirates and the people who did buy the game have jobs so they play less than the people who formerly populated the servers.
this is just wrong, the vast vast majority of people playing PC games online are doing so legally

most MP games that you even can play when pirated you have to play on hacked servers or over hamachi etc
they dont play with legit players as it is, so removing piracy wont really affect MP game population in that way
Cthippo 3rd March 2008, 23:44 Quote
The original post would tend to disagree with you. I really wish they had given numbers, even flaky ones, but the rant by the guy from Iron Forge quoted numbers as high as 90% piracy. Just how prevelent it really is is a valid question though.
DXR_13KE 4th March 2008, 01:49 Quote
the best people to answer that is the people that have torrent trackers....
johnmustrule 4th March 2008, 02:37 Quote
The problem for me is how exspensive PC games are. 50 dollars for starters and on up for GOTY and Special editions, it's to much for limited enjoyability. One of the few games I purchased this year was Valve's Orange Box, It comes with five AAA titles each with medium to high replayability exspecially TF2 (which according to statistics has sucked away nearly sixty hours of my life). Suff like that is a deal, exspecially using steam which shall forever be my primary game purchasing service. If games where 35$ fine, I'd buy em all, but 50$ is way to much. Even if it cost's more to dev them now and in the future, they'ed atleast probably make more money if they cost less thus selling a greatly larger unit amount and I bet revenues would sky rocket. Other than finding a sweet spot for pricing I don't think there's going to be a resolution.
DXR_13KE 4th March 2008, 09:38 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by johnmustrule
The problem for me is how exspensive PC games are. 50 dollars for starters and on up for GOTY and Special editions, it's to much for limited enjoyability. One of the few games I purchased this year was Valve's Orange Box, It comes with five AAA titles each with medium to high replayability exspecially TF2 (which according to statistics has sucked away nearly sixty hours of my life). Suff like that is a deal, exspecially using steam which shall forever be my primary game purchasing service. If games where 35$ fine, I'd buy em all, but 50$ is way to much. Even if it cost's more to dev them now and in the future, they'ed atleast probably make more money if they cost less thus selling a greatly larger unit amount and I bet revenues would sky rocket. Other than finding a sweet spot for pricing I don't think there's going to be a resolution.

here they cost about 75$......
Xir 4th March 2008, 09:53 Quote
...just for Info:

SupCom Forged Alliance is at the moment still around 30€...that's 45$ WITHOUT the original game.
impar 4th March 2008, 09:55 Quote
Greetings!
Quote:
Originally Posted by DXR_13KE
the best people to answer that is the people that have torrent trackers....
Some torrent trackers do show the downloads number.
Checking Mininova, for example, it has ~180.000 CoD4-PC downloads for the most popular... "versions". Once you imagine the numbers from other torrent sites and other P2P delivery systems you get an idea on how prevalent P2P freeloading is.
Quote:
Originally Posted by johnmustrule
The problem for me is how exspensive PC games are.
Console games are more expensive and they sell better.
Quote:
Originally Posted by johnmustrule
50 dollars for starters and on up for GOTY and Special editions, it's to much for limited enjoyability.
If you find PC games are too short, change genre.
Total War games, for instances, would have to be priced at $1.500€ for them to have the same price/hour ratio as Crysis.
Hamish 4th March 2008, 10:02 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cthippo
The original post would tend to disagree with you. I really wish they had given numbers, even flaky ones, but the rant by the guy from Iron Forge quoted numbers as high as 90% piracy. Just how prevelent it really is is a valid question though.

yea i know and i question those numbers because nobody has given a source for them, as far as i can tell hes just picked that number out of the air...
iwog 4th March 2008, 10:24 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by impar
Greetings!Some torrent trackers do show the downloads number.
Checking Mininova, for example, it has ~180.000 CoD4-PC downloads for the most popular... "versions". Once you imagine the numbers from other torrent sites and other P2P delivery systems you get an idea on how prevalent P2P freeloading is.
But a torrent is often tracked by mulitple trackers who count all download/completion as soon as one file is done. This means that if a file is tracked by 5 trackers and is completed twice each tracker will count 2 completes which makes it look like there are 10 downloads when in reality there are 2.
Quote:
Originally Posted by impar
Console games are more expensive and they sell better.If you find PC games are too short, change genre.

Console games sell better because consoles have become more mainstream than PC gaming atm, also they're cheaper in the long run (had a link somewhere that tried to prove this but cant find it now) and there are less compatibility issues for less informed people. You buy a console game and its expected it will run at certain standard on the console but with a PC game there is less certainty due to the numerous hardware configurations.
DXR_13KE 4th March 2008, 11:06 Quote
what (kind) of scares me is that fact that consoles are becoming more software based, so that you don't need mod chips anymore, just install a crack on the main OS or something....
impar 4th March 2008, 14:44 Quote
Greetings!
Quote:
Originally Posted by iwog
But a torrent is often tracked by mulitple trackers who count all download/completion as soon as one file is done.
My understanding is that the download number displayed in torrent sites is of the the ".torrent" file downloads from that particular site, not the actual content or from other sites.
Quote:
Originally Posted by iwog
Console games sell better because consoles have become more mainstream than PC gaming atm, ...
Console games have become more profitable to developers than PC games. Higher selling price, better sales per machine, less support needed, etc.
If the trend continues, I fear for the AAA PC gaming market survival.
Quote:
Originally Posted by iwog
... also they're cheaper in the long run...
That would depend on counting as console expense the HD display. To me, proper console gaming would be a lot more expensive. Already need a decent PC, so might as well put a 8800 card in it.
iwog 4th March 2008, 17:46 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by impar
That would depend on counting as console expense the HD display. To me, proper console gaming would be a lot more expensive. Already need a decent PC, so might as well put a 8800 card in it.

That is including the cost of buying a nice TV for the console and a 22inch display for the PC. Here's the link so you can read yourself and make your own mind up.
impar 4th March 2008, 20:02 Quote
Greetings!
Quote:
Originally Posted by iwog
Here's the link so you can read yourself and make your own mind up.
Thanks for the link. Sadly, some of his assumptions dont apply to me and he forgets to factor an important aspect of PC upgrading.

Assumptions:
- The gaming PC is being purchased instead of a basic computer that would have been purchased anyway. -> I already need a decent system so one basic computer scenario is out.
- The console PC requires a larger/better television than what would have been purchased anyway -> I am happy with my old 51cm TV set, dont usually watch TV and dont feel the need to replace my broken living room DVD player.
- For all scenarios four full-priced games, and one discount game (50%) were purchased each year - I usually buy more than four full-price games per year (50€ for PC versus 70€ for console).

And, he doesnt factor the resale value of old hardware pieces. My six month old 22", for example, cost me 85€ net (once I subtract the resale value of the old 19" from the 22" price).

PS: Sorry for the offtopic.
iwog 4th March 2008, 20:07 Quote
Its just for an average consumer which means it'll fit no one exactly but will explain the market as a whole. Yes he excluded PC component resale but he also exclude duff game resale so that in some way evens it out. And you have to exclude some things to make a model work otherwise they become so complex they explain nothing.

And sorry to everyone else for dragging this OT.
haha-1 14th March 2008, 04:56 Quote
I actually found this place by googling accidentaly but all i have to say is..

Im actually laughing at how pathetic and ridiculous it is that you guys are here circle jerking eachother off flaming pirates

You're right it's wrong, but apparently it should be obvious we dont give a **** what you think LOL. Seriously, it's funny all the whining that's done in this thread

And "Will" i actually lol'ed at you deleting your flatmates games and was questioning why in gods name your flatmate didnt punch you right in the face

But then i realized you're from UK and the ammount of ****** that are in europe, and apparently geeks as well!


Enjoy getting mad at my flame/trolling

I wont come back to read a bunch of emo's trying to find ways to try to seem less pathetic, but i'll take solace in knowing how much you guys will whine and keep whining!


peace <3

my ip is 68.38.217.15
Hamish 14th March 2008, 13:45 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by haha-1

Enjoy getting mad at my flame/trolling
protip: if you're going to troll, dont inform people of it
kinda defeats the object ;)
CanadianViking 21st March 2008, 05:30 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by johnmustrule
The problem for me is how exspensive PC games are.

I don't know if my town is crazy, or what, by where I live, PC games are cheaper... they run about 50 bucks, whereas console versions run around 70-80.
DougEdey 21st March 2008, 10:45 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by haha-1
-Snip- I'm a see you next tuesday, please hack me and delete my games at 68.38.217.15

Why thankyou.
Cthippo 21st March 2008, 18:35 Quote
Why didn't that post get deleted? I know it was reported???
CardJoe 21st March 2008, 20:03 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cthippo
Why didn't that post get deleted? I know it was reported???

It's a valid post IMO that reflects the attitude of many in the market and, although it is inflammatory, it is so in a way which is relevant to the discussion and illustrating a core problem about piracy - I.E ****tards.

I've censored it a little more to help avoid offending anyone further, but my own view is that this is an attitude which any realistic and sensible discussion about piracy must sooner or later face.
Overlord 3rd June 2008, 01:33 Quote
And of course its not like you can stick a chip in an xbox or PS3 is it? How are people managing to play with a cracked version of cod4 online on a punkbuster server? Dont believe it tbh.
Smegwarrior 3rd June 2008, 13:53 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by Overlord
And of course its not like you can stick a chip in an xbox or PS3 is it? How are people managing to play with a cracked version of cod4 online on a punkbuster server? Dont believe it tbh.
Where have you been living?
Google mod chips for Xbox360 and PS3, they were available soon after the consoles first went on sale, it is however a cat and mouse game between the console developers and the mod chip developers to counter each others efforts, the same for the PC except that it is purely software based, however the new PC motherboard chipsets coming out in the next couple of years will incorporate hardware DRM to try and make it harder for pirates who will find a way around it anyway, either by software (or firmware) hacks or someone will develop mod chips for the PC, either way the piracy will continue and the paying customer/consumer will suffer the inevitable problems that will ensue as they try and make use of their legitimately bought and paid for software that has been crippled by anti-piracy methods that don't work because ALL of them can be hacked eventually no matter how sophisticated they are.





The figures quoted for piracy rates are most likely just pulled out from somewhere dark, smelly and in a difficult to view place around the back somewhere.

They failed to mention or even consider how many people hire games to play them on consoles and PC's so of course the sales figures versus player figures would be out of whack.

How is copy protection like the limit of 3 installs for Mass Effect PC going to affect people hiring games to play or the people who run the businesses hiring out the games when they get complaints from the 4th person to hire the game that it will not install/play and they have to make an international phone call to the software developer to get it activated just so they can play it for a night or 2.

Then there is the problem of re-saleability as a second hand product, when I buy a game I expect to be able to re-sell it later on and the person I sell it to also expects to be able to play the game and not have issues with getting a legitimate game to work.
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