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GayGamer.net subject to hate crimes
Author: Joe MartinPublished: 6th August 2007
Hackers have taken down gaming site GayGamer.net - not the nice type of Broderick-alike hackers either, mind you.
Flynn DeMarco, the owner of GayGamer.net and weekend editor for Kotaku, said that what started as a series of small denial of service attacks on Wednesday morning soon grew into something more threatening. Throughout Thursday the site suffered occasional time-outs but was working on fixing the problem.
Come Friday the site, working with its host, was able to block the IP address the DOS attacks were stemming from. This only made matters worse however as the the sites forums and chat rooms were soon flooded with hate speech and death threats against the sites providers, writers and members.
According to DeMarco, all of the attacks and posts originated from the same IP in Philidelphia.
The site continued to work on managing the forum attacks but the host eventually decided to take the site down until the denial of service attacks could be permanently blocked.
GayGamer.net has issued the following official statement about the incident;
"Hello, faithful readers: As you might have noticed, we have had some connection issues in the last few days and now the site is completely down. I'm sad to say that we have been the target of homophobic hackers. Thankfully, they didn't get to our database so all of our stuff is still intact. At this point we are just waiting for our service provider to ensure everything is good before putting the server back online. Hopefully, this will be resolved by the end of this weekend, so please keep checking back. You can't keep a good gay gamer down, so we'll be back before you know it, serving up all the sassy game content you can handle. Cheers, Fruit Brute"
Care to comment on the attacks or share advice and tips on how to cope with DOS attacks? Do so in the forums.
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Comments (168)
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But still never good to see a paticular group getting bashed because of who they are.
QFT!
QFT +1
I agree.
Also, what does QFT mean???
QFT+3
Exactly what i think.
QFT. In Capitals.
Exactly. I don't really see the point of making a difference between gay gamers and the rest of them, but still its really sad that some people will try to attack others for choosing a way for living their life. Why does it even bother them, if those gay gamers have nothing to do with the attackers and have absolutely no effect on their lives? It seems that some are still living in the paleolithic era... truly sad.
'Fraid it's another QFT.
QFT+4 the people that are doing it are probably closet homosexuals anyway. (watches inbox fill with death-threats)
I think at this moment in time certina communities do need to band together, I'd like them to mix, but anyone that's played virtually any FPS game online knows that most people out there are ****ing hate filled morons who'll start spamming the moment they know a woman or a gay man is playing with them. I think a community of like minded people would help bring spirits up.
I dont see the point, we dont have a straightgamer site do we? Why not just make a games site for everyone, straight and gay, at the end of the day were all playing games and they dont deserve any special attention? Do they?
"Why is there a need for a gaygamer site? Do they give barbie magical adventures and pokemon : jigglypuff special edition extra review scores?"
Do you know quite how ****ing offensive that is? Would you have got away with a coment like "What's the point of a black gamers comunity, do they give games full of whores and crack dealers extra review scores?" (not my views, we'll hope someone knows what I'm talking about).
I'm not a member of GayGamers.com, but I am a Fraggot. FRGT clan are a Gay lesibian bi straight gamer clan. BF2 and Quake mainly. We exept members of all sexualities and have a very active forum and lots of members that regulary play together (well some of them).
It's amazing really, if this had happend to a Black gamer site or a human rights website the comunity would be up in arms. When it happens to a gay gamers group all that happens is people question if we should be alowed to have a gay gamers site. There are English only clans, 56k only clans, Emo clans, there's probably a left handed clan for ****s sake.
I wish you could live life as a gay man for even a day. Maybe you'd have more respect from the problems and small mindedness we have to deal with. hell I just came back from a lan where most of the people know that I'm gay but people still make derogitry coments.
Maybe you might understand why we feel the need to stick together.
As a side note, I found the barbie stuff funny, just as I found the crack stuff you said funny.
It's a shame they've been attacked like this. It was a good site.
i also find it odd that the web host didn't have adequate protection against that, i know like 5 years ago most web hosters installed special devices to combat DDoS attacks
finnaly hackers done a usefull peice of work
^
Proof that your average internet user is dumber than a crate of broken hammers; it's people like this that stopped me playing CS.
You made your first post to say that?
The fact is we've been forced by liberal's and the government to accept black and all colours inbetween, so much so that we now feel we have to cut them some slack and be sympathetic to their problem and need's. Problem and needs they have basicly brought apon themselves theirfore when some great atroscity is brought apon them we feel the need to be up in arms and brand the nearest non colour '' raceist''. And now of course we are being forced again to accept homosexuals for what they are yet the bible states clearly that what they do is wrong and sinful for which they shall all go to hell. Leviticus 18:22: Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind: it is abomination.
I sincerely hope that English isn't your first language..
If it is, then you really don't have much going for you, do you?
Gotta love the detritus that comes crawling out of the woodwork when these topics arise.
It doesn't bring out the worst in people, so much as it paints a poor picture of society when we see the kind of dark ages bullshit people still cling to and inflict on others in this day and age.
Keep religion out of it.
What makes you think your opinion is better than his ? What makes you think you have the right to call him dumb ?
Though it wasn't aimed at me...
For a start, a tolerant, open-minded world-view not based on backwards, moronic, hateful, harmful religious indoctrination tends to lend some credence to someone's views.
I'll steadfastly refer to anyone who holds such prejudice against any innocent group within society as morons.
Especially when they can't even formulate their own views without relying on religious dogma to make themselves feel better about being so disgustingly hateful.
That refers to you, Topher, moreso than Elthomsono, but his 'reasoning' probably isn't all that different from yours if you trace it back far enough anyway.
qft.. it'd pay for people to stop being so up their own arse some of the time. Chill out!
hi, i do understand the desire for the gaynet idea - and as long as straight (but nae narrow) users are welcome fine.
Homophobes are of two kinds - uneducated and nasty psycho sorts - comments like swafemens are of the first kind (still a sad reflection on person issueing such drivel imho). the website attack is the 2nd type - and sad thing is these rabid homophobes don't realise why they are such illogical hatemongers. Several phsychological experiments have found some interesting results.
A large number of subjects were wired up to equipment that measured their response to watching gay porn. Strangely the people that say "straight but def 100%!!! not a poofter" had much more recorded arousal than the "straight but not narrow" people.
Its believed that extreme homophobes have problems accepting their gay side .. I think i am very straight - but not a
big deal tbh. I think the MD of a certain homophobic oc site in the uk is one such example of a homophobe who is really part bi-sexual.
can i say as liberally as i can... fcuk offski!
Well for one thing, he can't spell.
I consider his opinion backwards and even downright bigoted, both of which I think to be inferior to a more accepting, understanding approach.
Basically, by saying "finnaly hackers done a usefull peice of work" he agrees that he'd like to be shot of a website advocating gaygamers. I strongly dislike people who hold views like those, do you think he's fair in censoring people he doesn't like?
Ok we'll put it this without the religious Dogma Homosexuals are wrong and their all going to hell. They are slowly but surley destroying the fabric of society, eroding away all morals that once where the keystones to society. I do not wish my children to be subjected to two males kissing in the street or two females for that matter. As i have an open-mind and as you say a ''world view'' i was able to formulate my own opinion, i simply used some relegious txt as a reference to how homosexuality is portrayed by most christians. As i hold fast to my views, and as such will not rubbish another mans opinion over my own unlike you. I simply seek to give my opinion on the subject. As for poeple telling people to f&%* off you just know these are the brainless idiots that simply have to follow the herd, and cant think of much else to say.
I agree, I am uneducated, with my 5 A levels, and having graduated last week from a Top 5 University.
I understand its not going to be all jigglypuff and barbie, but I dont see why its needed? Its not like they have special 'gay' games like id indicated,... games are games, if the gamers that differ, so why do they need a special site ? If the games were different, then this could be understood, for example a childrens games site, going to be full of fred flintstone, or whatever the kids watch these days, and no manhunt 2, but at the end of the day, surely gamers just play the same games as you and I?
Everyone has their opinions, and each persons differ, so your always going to get conflicts, if people want to be gay, then let them do it its their choice and if thats how they want to spend and enjoy their lives, let them be, I just hate how its rammed down our throats and you cannot say anything right, if I made a site for the other section of gamers, - straight ones and called it imnotagaygamer.com and was all about how we should play beat em ups and fps because were all manly and the like - it would probably have been off the net a long time ago.
Be careful of using religious interpretations to guide you on how to live your life. A quick read through of Genesis can result in the perfectly valid interpretation that if it wasn't for Satan, we wouldn't even have free will.
By all means believe what you like, but be careful it doesn't prejudice you against people with no due cause or reason.
Tbh, what do you expect when you set a website up for a group of people that WANT to be different? How about if I set up a website for people with dark hair? Those with blonde hair, no hair, ginger hair would be as welcome as anyone else, but there would always be a few that would be much happier if the website didn't exist, based purely upon the colour of their hair.
It really doesn't matter if you have three heads or no pubes, everyone online is the same.
Now you see, personally, I disagree. I used to be a prevelant poster on the Iron Maiden forum, a forum for people who liked Iron Maiden. Should that be shut down because not everyone likes Iron Maiden? Certainly someone who didn't like Iron Maiden wouldn't be welcome there, as the purpose of the site was to be an Iron Maiden fan site.
People ARE different, everyone is unique, why should we try to stamp these differences out, it's what makes it interesting to be human. I'm guessing gaygamer.net was as much about being gay as it was about playing games, and as such, it's every right to exist.
I'm going to assume, for your own sake, that you meant 'surely' in place of 'surley' and 'were' in place of 'where'.
To your actual point which you so succinctly make: Show me the logic behind it, if there is any.
Social acceptance of homosexuality does not encourage the erosion of society's morality, it merely challenges archaic, narrow-minded views towards something that isn't 'normal' or 'acceptable' to the blind-faith ignorant masses.
Why?
You're afraid, perhaps, that they might be gay?
Oh what a travesty that would be!
I'd say that sarcastically if I wasn't quite sure that you're the kind of ignorant parent who would make any gay child miserable. I'd say I pity your children, but you're the one I really pity.
You seem to think that I was implying some people have world views and others don't. Your lack of any real grasp of logic is worrying, as is your proficiency with your first language.....or lack thereof.
What I was implying, in fact, was that you have a world-view (just as anyone does), but that yours has been poisoned by religious dogma and centuries of ignorance and hate.
You'll actually find, if you were to leave your bible studies for a while, that in the real world, the majority of Christians aren't quite so hateful towards homosexuals - only the ignorant ones who take leaps of blind faith and take passages from an ancient fantasy novel literally, and then base their views on it.
Try fast-forwarding to 2007, you might find that things have changed a little.
By your 'logic', Hitler's opinions on Jews and Homosexuals were valid too, just because they were his opinions.
Sadly for you, reality doesn't quite work like that. Try reading up on some St. Thomas Aquinas - Religious fellow, you might like him. He writes a very good text on Knowledge, Opinion, Faith & Belief.
By the way, as far as I'm concerned, your opinion is rubbish.
Coming from a person who justifies their ignorance with the ever-useful "it's my opinion" argument alongside quotes from the bible.
...Right.
That's what I'm on about - until you stated that you are/were a fan of Iron Maiden, I wouldn't have had a clue. Do you see what I'm trying to get at? Yes, I wholeheartedly agree that everyone is unique and that there should be fanclubs up the yingyang, I wasn't disputing that at all, but an online presence is so faceless that, IMO, it shouldn't really matter!
Should I go and start a site called ginger gamer, what does that achieve?
You should, Jamie!
Nobody will DoS you, they'll just poke fun and ask for some crunchy ginger nuts! :p
Ah but that's my point too! GayGamer.net is as much about being gay as playing games. If it was only about playing games than I agree, sexuality is totally irelevant for playing games, but it's not, it's also about the fact its readers are gay. Behind every faceless online presence is a person, and if that person is gay, and wants to be in a environment that is about being gay, that's what the website is for.
Simply by the fact the content of the site differs from a none sexual orientated website implies there is a difference between a community of straight gamers and a community of gay gamers, and a such, as there is a difference, the website's existence is justified.
Though I'm getting the impression i'm the only person who thinks this. :)
Let me guess, topher is the religious right kind of man who thinks everything was better back in 'the old days' when society had morals and everyone was polite to each other.
Well, I'm sure you'll be at the next stoning of all the homosexuals and prostitutes then, you know, just like your bible tells you to.
I absolutely hate anyone that says 'Yarr, you're going to burn in Hell' (why they sound like a pirate is unknown to me).
I'd be grateful for an example of a gay person eroding society, and I truely feel sorry for your kids who will most likely be brought up and accept the same ignorant views you do.
utter Garbage - these "morals you clai,m are the kind of victorian morals - held by the same morally bankrupt people that sent 7 year old kids down mines and up chimmneys.
I realise, people may read that the wrong way - but I think that's the same with practically every site. Kotaku? A site with a spin for console-fanboys and gamer (ZING!) Bit-tech? A site for hardware geeks with an interest in games, for which we provide a hardware spin on our articles. This is how niches work. GayGamer simply chose, or filled, a niche which some people are uncomfortable with for a variety of reasons. Those reasons could be bought up by lack of understanding, religious beliefs, closet homosexuality or just a distaste for the writing style or PC culture.
GayGamer was a site I read occasionally. I personally didn't like the forums too much, but I thought the articles were ok. I'm sorry it's been attacked like this. For me, the gay aspect was something I ignored and acknowledged as being there for the community that wanted it. Simple as that.
ok i apologise as i only meant uneducated in the sense of homophobia and the rather junior barbie remarks that get bandied around . Really what the heck does it matter if gay gamers have their own website - as long as they don't start claiming superiority etc i don't think its anyone elses business.. Being educated to degree level and beyond is no value tbh (unless its relevant to the subject being discussed ?
Its none of the rev paisleys disciples business ?
You've painted such a bland and single shaded picture from a phobic point of view, with the premise of education and it's purely hilarious. Attributing a "save the children" point of view when you could easily just say, "they're kissing because they love each other", but instead you apply your adult sexual preference to innocent and inquisitive children with no understanding of the world. If you go to a 5-year old and ask if he chases girls, he'll likely reply "NO" out of embarrassment and lack of understanding, not because he's after a bumming. And obviously, because you probably cannot fathom how one man/woman will love another, it'll instil a negative response but that will be your freedom of choice to do as a parent.
A gay-gamer site is complete and utter irony in itself: they want acceptance but feel the need to make a specific site for homosexuals. However, isn't the whole point of the internet that you can create a niche site for anything that anyone might be interested in? Is bit-tech discriminatory for people who are completely non-tech orientated? Every time I use an acronym like "HTPC" am I deliberately cutting out potential readers who might find the assumption of knowledge, offensive?
I don't expect a positive response, and I recognise a "liberal" attitude such as mine is hardly an end-all answer either. If my children come home with another of the same sex, I couldn't personally care less as long as they are happy and not getting hurt: I'll encourage them to adopt (to really **** you off :D:D:D ;) ) and they'll probably be better parents then the millions of heterosexual chav's and incapable parents with kids in the world.
I find your use of acronyms offensive to my beliefs of loud computers!
Yes, that's a joke comment, but it's the same thing.
Well the deaf households need for a quieter htpc is negligible - so would such an acronymnim be offensive ?? thats the question. Answer WGAS (who gives a stuff)..
QFT +5
I love bigotry in action. It always gives me a good laugh at their ignorance. Way to stay in the 1950's.
I find it very funny when bible thumpers start quoting the bible to support their intolerance and bigotry. Wasn't Jesus' teaching tolerance for all, peace instead of war...
But since you want to throw out bible quotes, how about this one:
James 1:26 If any man among you seem to be religious, and bridleth not his tongue, but deceiveth his own heart, this man's religion is vain.
Who's going to hell? The one who lives his or her life in peace, harmony, and love...or the one that spouts lip service and intolerance.
The bigots, intolerants, and ignoramous' out there are doing more harm to society's fabric than homosexuals. KKK, Nazi, Al Queda, Black Panthers etc etc etc. They're all the same, "My way is Right, as declared by God. The rest will burn in Hell for disagreeing with me"
Go burn a synagogue or something
Oh, I get it. People aren't entitled to their opinions.
By separating themselves into a gay community of gamers, they should have seen this coming.
I personally don't see what a gay gaming community would give you that a regular gaming community couldn't. How do you offer reviews that are tailored to gays? How does sexual preference have anything to do with gaming?
QFT
That's quite true, however like religion or nationality it's all about association and identification with others, not necessarily about reviews with "bums out of 10"
Maybe you do really love each other, but some of us are grumpy old farts and don't want to see it ;) (and Ive spoken to a number of people who have said the same thing before, before you shoot me down)
We can also look a the example of black people calling each other "nigga". It's OK amongst blacks --they're all in the same boat; it is irony. Don't do it when you're a whitey though... Minority groups that are perceived to be underprivilliged are allowed certain perks because they are underpriviliged, and hence, it is argued, they need some positive discrimination to balance things out again. The same does not go for the very priviliged minorities (e.g. millionaires and celebrities), because they get enough positive discrimination as it is.
Although I do not necessarily agree with positive discrimination as a solution to negative discrimination (it is just discrimination with a different spin), I do think that it tends to be the inevitable result of negative discrimination. If you don't allow people to integrate, they marginalise. Then they compete... If gay gamers were treated better in the larger community, perhaps they would not feel the need to create their own niche. But you and I can judge from a comfortable position of being in the majority... Or can we? How well are geeks tolerated, that some of us feel they need to pour their heart out on sites like this?
You consider homosexuality a moral choice. It is no more a choice than you chose to be male, or straight. You were born that way. Homosexual people are born wired the way they are. They could not choose to be straight any more than you can choose to be gay. There are in fact about 16 different factors in a complex interactive dance all throughout development in the womb and some time after, that determine whether you are male or female, and what sexual orientation you have.
You formulated your opinion on religious texts, but I'm guessing that you did not do a lot of thinking about it. Corinthians 13 slip past you for instance? How about Matthew 7:1-6? In fact, the Bible is rife with interesting contradictions and vaguaries throughout. You really have to go beyond the face-value of what is essentially a 4000 year old text written in a different language in a different culture with different knowledge about How the World Works.
nigg...er, gays.If you have nothing better to do than to go around desecrating and destroying the work of other people (who have done nothing to you) in an effort to somehow be more in line with the teachings of a man who says "love your neighbor" and reminds you over the course of an entire testament that YOU are not judge and jury, but that God is...maybe you should spend more time in a critical reading class? I mean, did ya maybe somehow miss the effin' message?
The thing that bugs me most about all the religion malarkey is that the Bible's primary purpose was as a book for you to learn to live YOUR life in the footsteps of Christ...not as a weapon to beat other people with. This was in no way a hidden meaning or lost in translation - it lays out wrongs and rights for the reader. You do not act in the interest of your God when you impress your will upon another. You act in the interest of your God when you impress His will upon yourself.
It's hard not to hate when you feel that the world has gone wrong around you. But if you want to take a lesson from the Bible, try realizing that Christ knew he would eventually have to DIE because of it, and yet managed to love everyone anyway.
Somehow, not actively and intentionally destroying the property of another, however much their view differs from yours, should seem a small sacrifice in comparison.
<I'm lookin right at you, topher...as well as anyone else who wants to hide behind religion as a valid reason for bigotry, hate crimes, or other loathsome acts committed by themselves or others.>
yes i agree with them as well - as someone who has seen many years of change in peoples attitudes towards minorities, can i just say that i am very cheered by the majority attitude of "live and let live" rather than the " assimilate or die attitude" prevelant in bad old days. (though i doubt the attitudes would be the same at certain overclockers forums)
the reason there is a gaygamer site is for gay gamers to have a place to come and escape the rampant homophobia and attacks that are present in most online games.
I think it's a shame what happened, and really what did it accomplish? How come no one ever DOS nazi or KKK websites
Have to ask for any examples of this rampant homophobia ?
OMG WTF YOU FAG WTF WTF YOU SUCK COK!!!1! just kill somebody in CSS and you'll get plenty of quotes
Or my favourite bible passage; Proverbs 24:6: "By wise council you shall wage your wars and only in a multitude of councilors is there any safety".
Sounds to me like the majority of councillors disagree with the whole god-as-a-defense arguement...
Oh, and the REASON for a gaygamer site is to provide a safe haven for like minded individuals who may other wise be subject to abuse whilst, at the same time, generating money and interest from and for readers. It's the same way bit-tech works, except we don't call bit-tech "hardware-geeks-with-interest-in-games-and-who-would-have-been-abused-as-nerds-or-squares-in-slightly-earlier-decades.....dotnet."
As a Christian and as one who thinks homosexuality is wrong (there are even Christians who think homosexuality is ok, but that's another debate) I feel a need to speak up about this issue since that has once again been brought up. I believe that God has given us choices and lets us live with our choices. I highlight that because to me that is also part of the example of Jesus - he was very harsh on those who falsely claimed to represent God (or who did so in corrupt or improper ways) BUT he was very kind to those who were outside of the religious community. I am not a "homophobe" - there is neither hate nor the implied fear in my disagreement with homosexual practices. I have worked with, and currently work alongside, a few people who happen to be "gay" - I treat them no differently than I treat anyone else.
Now here's the part that amuses me: As a "conservative Christian" (though that probably does not mean the same thing to you as it means to me) I find myself identifying with some of the same issues those behind the gaygamer site faced. I regularly see my beliefs mocked as "backward", "fantasy", "fairy tales", ... and blamed for much of what is wrong in the world. I sometimes make the effort to dispute those claims but the hate still pours in. I see other sites dedicated specifically towards "my demographic" and sometimes I am active on those but I also chose to do things outside of what those sites offer. I'm not sure I would want a single site that combined more of my beliefs and interests but I can see how others would. However that lead me to a thought similar to Bindi's:
Thanks for reading my post. It was simply a roundabout way of saying
roffle, catchy.
I also want to remind people that at the moment the world is experiencing some considerable trouble with a certain small group of people who have very strong religious views on how others should live (and what should happen to them if they don't). These people obviously misinterpreted their scriptures too; again they see them as a rather black-and-white rules of how other people should live, rather than as moral and spiritual guidance for their own lives. You know what we call them: terrorists.
Are the DoS attacks that Gaygamer.com has been suffering not a sort of terrorism? Think it over.
Yes, it is terrorism...But I don't think Lil' Bush is gonna go after the perpetrators :)
To the Christians. I have no problem with your religion and your right to choose (as religion is a choice, unlike sexuality). I have a good friend that I have know since I was 2 that's one of your kind and I treat him like I do anyone else. But I have to ask the ones quoting Leviticus if they eat shellfish?
And
I would now like to appologise for that because it is childish and petty but needed to be said. Most Christians have never been made aware of that part of the bible or see the rules on 'Kosher' foods as the 'Jewish only' part, but this is the same part of the bible you like to quote against us and therefor you should be informed of it.
I don;t want to sound petty but I really need to say this. Under leviticus there are many practices that are allowed that as a society we have deemed wrong or imorral and there are many practices that are banned;
It is ok to burn a bull for sacrifice as it creates a pleasing smell for the lord (Lev 1:9)
It is not allowed to have contact with a woman during her period [or if the word offends, menstrual uncleanliness](Lev 15:19-24)
Touching the skin of a dead pig is makes you unclean (Lev 11:6-8)
it is not allowed for anyone to approach the alter of god if they have a sight defect (Lev 21:20)
It is not allowed to have your hair trimmed, especially around the temples (Lev 19:27)
It is ok to sell your daughter into slavery (Lev 21:7)
It is allowed to have male or female slaves as long as they are bought from a neighboring nation (Lev 25:44)
THis one isn't leviticus but needs to be said...
It is not allowed to work on the sabbath and anyone that does so should be put to death (Exodus 35:2)
Now I don't mean for anyone to take offence from this, as I'm sure some will, but my point was ment to be that if religion can 'update' itself in these ways then why can't it exept homosexuality (I know some sects of Chrisitanity do, like theLGMC).
And I'd like to leave with a story. Recently I was at a good friends weding, a Civil marrage that was done at a place called Cliff Barnes. While talking to my Evangelical Christian friend and his girlfriend I asked simply why two people regardless of gender or religion that are of sound mind and completely withought pressure join together in a union if it is completely devoid of any religion that might be offended of it (Civil Marrage or Civil Partnerships). All I got as a reply was, "By that logic a man could mary a cow"
Now how in can you argue that?
Ben
I simply believe that if you use that belief to instead attack and disrespect others, then you are missing the basic pattern of that belief. I point out the inconsistency - but you don't exactly see me defacing religious pages or burning churches. You have a right to your belief, but you do not have a right to damage others or their property for it.
The only way I seek to stop someone else living as he or she wishes to is when that way of life is based around manifesting their beliefs in a way that severely impairs and infringes on other peoples' decisions. That is the same reason that murder, battery, and arson are illegal in pretty much every civilized country - your right to swing your fist ends where someone else's nose begins. To me, that's not "my way" - that part is kind of everyone's way, unless you think it'd be fun to get stabbed simply because someone has the right to find out what it feels like to kill another person.
Being on the internet is like being at school again, wearing a grey shirt instead of white? Beats! Have a site called gaygamers.net? DoS attack! Far too much immaturity around atm.
Good point. Infact most people I raise those points to use that as justification. The rules of the old testament being removed by the new. Now if I could only find the part in the new testament about homosexuality.
I'm not a Christian, I'm an atheist (or lapsed agnostic - I believe in god, I just don't trust him). I don't ask people to stop believing in God if people can be content to stop asking me too believe in god. I can get on fine with anybody most people (barring my usual grumpiness) provided they can get on with me.
But if someone is bringing up a fight, over gays, chrisitans, muslims or anything else...well, then I reserve the right to jump into the fight too. Fists flinging until I run out of piss and vinegar. That's just the way I roll; if someone raises an arguement then they have to expect opposition.
Blasphemy there is only one true relix!
I know there's a relix, no belief required ;)
Reminds me of one of my favorite quotes from one of my favorite movies about one of my favorite people, Steve Prefontaine. Upon his would be girlfriend asking him "if he believes in god", he simply said that "i believe in myself." Nothing you can say to that really and as DougEdey said, I think its really necessary to believe in yourself before believing in other things.
I won't go into religion at the moment but I don't mind gay people at all and I can understand why they'd want a gay gaming site but the reasons that have been mentioned in this thread already. And for those that are complaining that the "athiests" are impressing their own "religion" on the others just realize that its not about taking sides, its about using logic, reason and open-mindedness to formulate decisions based on those. Also, just because i may make fun of some people's religions (i have a few mormon friends) doesn't mean I'd rather they have mine. The world is more interesting when everyone has different beliefs.
What you smoking? - As a strong atheist its never the chrstian/islam religion thats objected to - its the xtian/islamist belief in convert or die that I find distasteful. Also the blatant twisting of the facts to try to reinforce their viewpoint. And your statement above is a prime example - I see zero evidence of anyone saying churches should be burnt down,,
Could be worse - could be scientologists :) At least the mormons dumped the racism in the 70's (not that scientologists are racist - theyre just nutcakes)
When it comes to Scientology, I agree with the German Government, they're a cult
Well Dennis Thatcher sure did !!
butt did the goat consent and were there any kidds ? :)
They take the back enterance into the enemy base.
It may be uncommon for atheists to want churches burned down, but it's also rare for religious people to want to kill atheists. The News makes us forget that violent fundamentalists are a very small minority. Most religious people would like to convert you for your own good. Christians, for example, often believe that if you don't worship God, then you will go to hell. I would consider it hurtful if someone was happy for that to happen to me without trying to do anything about it!
The problem with that sort of argument is that it starts with the assumption that the religion is wrong. You assume that religious people are opposed to homosexuality because a work of fiction told them so, or that they're pushing out their own prejudice. You fail to realise the other possibility. They may be right.
You KNOW most of the people, for some reason, can't accept there are gay people. You KNOW that by exposing your sexual orientation, there WILL be retarded 12 year olds who will bash you constantly for as long as they'll see you.
You KNOW all this, then why do you keep exposing this ? Why not keep it for yourself and just play the damn game ! I could not give a sh*t less if you like men or even dogs rather than women. I DONT CARE
No one needs to know your life and life itself shouldn't be mixed with freaking gaming
When you're starting to grow into your sexuality and the vast majority of the time you hear the word 'gay' it's being used as a derogitry term by pretty much everything it starts to stick. It must be bad, he must hate gays. I'm the only one. I'm some sort of wierdo that won't be accepted by man or beast. If your friends find out they'll diss-own you, let alone your parents (even worce if you're an only child like me). If I tell anyone they'll take the piss out of me, I'm never gunna find someone that excepts me. I'm gunna be alone, I'm always gunna be alone if I tell anyone.
This is hell and I would never wish it on anyone, but I wouldn't want to be straight. I might wish that I wasn't part of a minorty that's portrayed as badly as the gay comunity is. I wish there wasn't the hate or the uncontious slurs. Do you understand now why homosexuality isn't a choice? Do you understand now why the teenage suicide rate for LGBs is 4 times higher than they're straight counterparts (also take into acount the amount of kids that's sexuality isn't discovered, they don't make the statistics).
Small minded homophobia like this thread has seen IS a contributing factor to this. Trust me it's contributed to my speratic depression, something I suffer with very regulary.
But **** it, god knows best. He doesn't mind sinners ending they're lives does he. They just make up more room in hell.
Because for years we hid in the shadows, hell for many many years I knew I was gay and sayed closeted, and you know what. It turns you're self worth to zero. You're worthless beacuse you can't even admit something that should be so ****ing trivial.
We have comunities like GayGamers so we can feel normal. There are people like us out there. We're not alone in the world. Something straight people take for granted far FAR to much.
Actually, assuming that the religion is wrong is much more logically sound than assuming it's right.
You can't prove that something doesn't exist (unless you're talking about something like a prime number larger than all other prime numbers or some other well-defined entity subject to logical scrutiny), so if you assume that God exists, how can anyone ever prove you wrong?
However, if you don't believe that God exists, but remain logically open to the possibility, then you can have it 'proven' to you that God exists, if given some kind of irrefutable, undeniable evidence of his existence.
Therefore, it's rationally better to assume that God doesn't exist, and wait to be proven wrong.
Whether you expect that to happen or not is more of a judgement call and may be what seperates Agnostics from 'Strong Atheists'.
Infidels.org:
As far as I'm concerned, an ancient, mistranslated book and a meme aren't enough to prove God's existence, and thus as far as I'm concerned, the Religions who believe in 'God' are therefore wrong.
Not wrong in a moral sense, but in the sense of fallibility.. though when we see people like Topher spouting their hateful bullshit based on religious 'reasoning' and magical thinking...well... you've just got to question the morality of the religion alongside it's fallibility, eh?
I really dislike this argument because for one there is contradicting evidence to show if it's psychological or physiological, therefor it could go either way. With that in mind if it indeed was a choice would it still be okay to discriminate against people based on them making that choice? I'm going to have to go with no. That's why I don't like that argument, because it implys that it would be right to discriminate if it were a choice. It still wouldn't be right to discriminate even if it was a choice.
Eh...
Better to reign in Hell, then serve in Heav'n.
You seem a bit distraught, just wave that middle finger good and high. Eventually all of the homophobic people out there will realize how retard they are, either that or just have to STFU.
What Blade says in posts #91 & #92 is so very true, been there done that, felt the same.
I''ll "out" myself here, i'm a recent (2006) post-op M2F transsexual, (i bet my nick makes sense now lol) it took me 34 years to accept who i was due to the indoctrination of a catholic upbringing making me think i was a freak and not worth living, 6 years later and i am now happy to be alive and in a lesbian relationship with my wife of 12 years.
Shakespeare's famous quote "This above all: to thine own self be true" is very pertinent to all in the GLBTI community, it is NOT a choice, and to trying to be what we are not leads to misery and suicide.
For any of you "straights" all i can say is that if you never have any idea of how we feel, thank your god(s) daily.
Having written that, i suddenly realize that i wish you could understand, because if you had even the faintest idea of what we have and had to endure, you'd be a lot more compassionate and tolerant.
Discovering people like myself on the internet was what helped me to accept who & what i was, and thus learn to cope, i am now strong and am out in my small country town in Australia, so there is a need for groups like gay gamers, i'm sure that if they met as a group at a lan then it would be much harder for the bigots to intimidate them
I'd like to thank some of the Bit-Tech staff for their understanding posts, Nexxo, Da Dego, Bindibadgi, and also greensabbath, it's great to know that there are some people out there who are more literate than i and really seem to understand life the universe and everything.
edit, thanks also to CardJoe and Blade, I should have put a rider saying and anyone else with supportive and intelligent comments :)
I gets no love :'(
(;))
I didn't say that. But cheers to everyone that's defended us.
Gotta love religion, it's the one thing in the world where, for many people, a lack of evidence constitutes proof. How screwed up is that?
On topic though, I think a lot of the disagreement on this thread stems not from homophobia, but almost from going too far the other way, people presume there is actually no difference between straight and gay people, that everyone is the same, when in reality there is a difference, and it varies between mundane and massive in some cases. Sites like gaygamer.net, and really any other speciality site, are needed because not everyone is the same, and we shouldn't presume they are.
**** me, I think he's got it.
But hey, that might be something Christ would do...
And as for anyone who thinks "Well, they set themselves up for..." : different does not equal separate. It just means distinct. Simply because there was a gay gamer site didn't mean straight people weren't welcome or that they would be somehow mistreated. Anyone who's ever joined a club, volunteer group, fraternity or church knows that being part of a public "group" doesn't remove your responsibilities towards society at large.
What do I look like? What colour is my hair? What gender am I? Do I like sausage rolls or apple pie? Who do I ****?
Anyone spot the contiueing theme there? These questions are all utterly irrelevent when playing an online video game. Frankly, if you're the sort of person who regularly makes it well known that you're gay while playing an FPS you deserve to get abuse, not for being gay, but just for not shutting the hell up about your sexuality. It's a game, no-one cares whether you like to poke guys or gals IRL.
The internet is only as familiar with who you are as you choose to make it. Those who choose to really put themselves out there totaly are going to find others who hate the choices they've made in life. This is part of what makes the net so great, we can choose what to reveal about ourselves. People shouldn't feel the need to broadcast an aspect of themselves that they know is controversial simply for the sake of being controversial.
Edit: As for the argument that gay people are equal but distinct from straight people, I do not agree that that needs to be the case. I see absolutely no reason why the gender of the mate you choose needs to impact upon your life in any way other than the gender of the mate you choose. I understand why a culture has emerged, but personally I hope that it dissolves over time. A seperate culture will hamper full and total acceptance and integration of non-straight people into a largely straight society.
Completely agree, it's not good that they were attacked for being gay, but there isn't really a need for a separate gay gaming community, and by making one they were obviously going to get themselves **** upon. I think there's a large possibility that the people responsible for the attacks weren't homophobic gay haters, but people who attacked the site since they were almost asking for an attack.
I respect other peoples views, but in return i expect them to respect my views
All too many Christians (or any religious person) believe that they know the one and only truth, and everyone else should follow them
Personally, i believe the bible is a guide on how to be a good person, how to live your life and accept others
However, all too often its forged into a sword and used to strike down people who don't believe in it
One of the best examples IMO, is Hinduism (?) where you are not allowed to eat pork, this is from a time when they were travelling in the scorching hot desert, and meat would not last very long, and if you were to eat it you would be likely to get food poisoning (and in those days most likely die)
IMO, everyone should be entitled to their opinion, and maybe you wont agree with it, but why does that give you the right to attack them, to abuse your power (as all too often happens on forums and game servers)
Perhaps if society allowed those who are perceived to be different to integrate, they wouldn't have to marginalise, and then compete with the rest. And perhaps the rest wouldn't have to feel so very, very afraid...
I agree with you Nexxo, however I believe that there was a reason back in the day. Homosexuals cannot naturally reproduce, in a time when every child was needed for the struggle for survival, i'm sure people considered homosexuals very selfish as they were not contributing to the greater good, or the future of their culture. Now days, with over 6 billion people in the world, it's hardly the issue it used to be. While the Bible is full of relevent information on how you should live your life, quite a bit of it is out of date (by about 2000 years)
But why be in a gay-clan? What is the need? While I agree that recieving abuse for being gay is wrong regardless of circumstances, I do think that people who make an issue of it online fail to realise that mostly they get abuse for making an issue of their sexuality, not for their orientation itself.
Says who?
Name me a time in history in which people didn't go hungry? (Or perhaps just look up Thomas Malthus)
China enforces a one child per couple policy. It's not discouraging sexual preference, just reproduction.
Why not? I've seen black clans, white clans, southern clans, area clans, hobbyist clans, christian clans, etc. What's wrong with being in a clan with others who are like you?
My personal standing on homosexuality is... It doesn't effect me in the slightest way, shape, or form, so why should it bother me? I dunno, maybe I'm not biased against homosexual people because my mom had gay friends when I was growing up but
So what's the need for gay movements? For black civil movements? For women's groups? Sometimes you have to make a positive issue of your identity, just because others are working very hard at making it a negative one.
when you go onto a game, there is no need to bring your RL baggage with you, its not relevant, saying "Hey look at me, I'm a gay" is probably going to antagonise people, and make people hurl abuse at you, its a useless piece of information that people will probably see as trying to stir up trouble (and ofc due to human nature, they will start abusing you)
This should answer your post:
Just because someone openly advertises something (if you think that a clan name is open advertisement), they still don't deserve slack for it. Its not like they're the "I eat babies" clan or the "I rape children" clan which the content of which would be a personal (and morbidly horrific) choice, they're the fraggot clan, bringing together fragging and slightly making light (i'd assume) of being gay (something which they have no choice over) which by now i'm sure they've come to accept and are open about.
And don't we loudly advertise our sexual orientation? Think about it. On this forum, we have had the "babe thread". All girls, I notice. We regularly express our admiration for the female form, shall we say, and we may talk/brag about girls and sex (in Sam0r's case, going into Too Much Detail altogether). Our heterosexuality is rampant. In every babe wallpaper ("Show us your desktop") we post or admire, in every praise of Emzay's looks, in every sit-up-and-take-note of a female member joining the forum (remember the melt-down that Frag Doll Kitt FDUK caused?), in every joke about sex we express our heterosexuality. Make no mistake. We are Proud To Be Straight, and we let people know about it.
If a gay person does the same however, we react like a bunch of homophobes or prudes. The best we seem to manage is: "Hey now, what you do in your own bed is your business, but Jeez, do you have to advertise?!? That's just asking for trouble!"
Why should it be? Sites like gamegal.com, girlgamers.co.uk, or gamergirlz.com don't get DoS attacks or hatemail. PMSclan doesn't seem to get any trouble. We seem perfectly happy with the thought of nubile young girls pleasuring themselves with their joystick --crap, there's that heterosexuality again...
What makes gay sites different? The answer is: they're not. They do exactly the same thing that girls do, or the Dutch, do, for instance. But nobody moans nearly as much about their "advertising" who they are. But then again, prejudices about girls or the Dutch are not as rampant.
As for "pure logic leads to atheism" I call BS on that. At best (or worst depending on your preferred view) "pure logic" leads to agnosticism. Additionally it is interesting that when given the same evidence different people can draw different conclusions and claim the same evidence as proof - Almost all "proof" requires some form of either acceptance or denial (or both) of the story behind it.
Clarification is needed here.
If you look back on my earlier post, you'll see that I say exactly what you're saying, but the general usage of the term 'atheists' tends to imply both 'weak atheists' (agnostics) and strong atheists (absolute atheists), since both are generally grouped together in these discussions, and the logic that leads to weak atheism is used as a basis for the philosophy of strong atheists, with further arguments tacked on.
Yes, we should have been clearer about it, but it becomes a pain in the ass to make the distinction between strong and weak atheists every time one refers to both collectively. Especially when the distinction has been made already and an explanation already given.
For the record, I consider myself to be a 'weak atheist' - If someone presents me with irrefutable evidence of God's existence then I'll accept it, but not until then, because I have no good reason to assume God's existence. Even then, they'd need a hell of a definition for 'God' and some serious evidence to get anywhere close.
Nexxo:
Paragon of sense, as always. ;)
People prefer to be in a place they feel safe and can just be themselves. Gay people probably feel safer there. I'm not sure you have noticed it when you play online, but one of the most common phrases used when someone is mad and wants to insult another player or criticize some aspect of the game is "....that' is so gay....!" My heart sinks a little bit everytime someone says that and I feel a little less welcome. Unless you are the object of something like that I know it is difficult to understand.
I do disagree that they really don't need to attract attention that they're a gay clan, because angry 12 year olds getting pwned and looking for a way to psych out these gay players will use it against them. It happens with anything. If you tell everyone your black and then start kicking their ass, they might just make fun of you about it.
Gays and their inability to reproduce should be seen as a good thing. They can adopt all the homeless children generated by the straight folks constant, nonstop ****ing. The world is getting into some trouble with all these people being born, and its going to bite us in the ass in a few decades.
As long as nobody is getting killed for being a gay gamer, what does it really matter? Can't the gays be above all this like they have been for many many years? Its the same old stuff, just in a new different form. If someone is ragging on you in a game, talking trash and stuff, does it really hurt your feelings? They're just saying anything to make you feel bad, theres no real hate intent behind it. They don't sit there after stopping their game of CSS and just loath you for hours. No, they don't give a damn in real life. I think theres just a lot of people who need to be a little less sensitive to things that in the big picture don't matter at all.
my 2p worth.
Now you're twisting what I said. My thought/input here is simply that, if people online in an FPS game are aware that you're gay and abusing you I think it's likely you were being for want of a better term, an attention-whore. Obviously there are exceptions to this, but in the UK at least, homosexuality is fairly well accepted by a great deal of people, and if not, tollerated by the majority. Like I said, people don't insult you online if you're gay, they insult you online for making it known that you're gay. The insults just happen to take the form of anti-gay ones, just as you'll get people picking on you about any other facet of your existance you make known.
Your comparisons about blatent heterosexuality are flawed imo, but I don't have time to properly go over them atm.
I prefer "I don't care about homosexuality, as long as you don't hit on me", I've got good friends that are homosexual (male and female), I see them touching each other, kissing and so on at the pub, I don't particularly care (unless there's no-one else to speak to). But I took offense when my ex-girlfriend asked me to do something with her homosexual male friend.
I usually agree with most of what you say Nexxo, but the lack of the word -some- - as in "SOME" straight people have gay issues? Thankfully thesedays the "some" are in the minority. but needs noting is all :)
It's double standards. People get anaphylactic shock at seeing a veil on a Muslim woman. Or two men kissing or just holding hands. Nobody seems to mind girls in really short skirts and small tops though, or heterosexual couples being affectionate. We'll look at topless girls on page 3 of the tabloids, but woe betide the woman who shows nipple while breast-feeding her baby in public. Let's face it: we have our norms: either you are rampantly sexual, and specifically hetero-sexual and proud of it, or you're a freak.
But gays are the minority. If 90% of people were gay, we would all be watching guys make out on the street, etc, and that wouldn't be weird to the gay people, because its normal. Us straights would feel out of place, even though nature says we're right, because we continue the species.
That being said, that plays a big part in all this. Heterosexuality is required for humanity to continue. Doesn't that make straight people right? Its insensitive to say that, I know, and sure some may take offense to the idea, but look at it logically; if everyone was gay, humanity would end.
Who said gays can't get married and have weddings and families? They do now, and some homophobic folks are trying to put a stop to it, but we all know they won't be able to. I personally feel that conventional weddings and all the trimmings of a heterosexual marriage maybe shouldn't belong, because its something very sacred to people. However the legal side of marriage is totally sensible. If you live with your partner and you want them to inherit your stuff when you die and things, then you have every right for that.
To sum up what I'm saying, do you not agree that our society shouldn't be hetero-focused? Then why should companies make a big deal about christmas? Isn't that unfair to all the Muslims, Jews, and Hindus in our society? They need to cater to somebody, obviously it might as well be the majority of people.
Not anymore. Medical miracles being what they are, you can harvest DNA from two people and have a testtube baby. Still need a woman for the womb, but women are gay too...
They're still human, and should be afforded the same respect any other person takes for granted. Descrimination because you're in a minority doesn't make it right.
True, it is a sacred rite for most cultures around the world...but remember, these people were raised in the same culture as any heterosexual, and those rites are just as sacred to them as they are to you and me.
Regardless of your desire to brand all of us who place some of the blame here on the gay people who loudly announce their sexuality as homophobes Nexxo, I still disagree with you, and I dislike your constant "we"-ising. You may be speaking sociologically but if so you should try addressing the people here who are discussing this now, not society as you take it to be.
And anyway, if gays really are no different from straight people, how come some straight people have such great difficulty accepting them? How come some straight people freak out at the sight of two men kissing? I guess those psychological differences are not that insignificant after all.
I prefer you say "you" in reference to a person, not tarring us all with the largely cynical and negative view you have of society (which there's nothing inherantly wrong with, I just find it offensive that I be laballed the same as a homophobic nazi BNP-member simply because I live in the same society as someone).
As for your argument of there being actual differences between a gay and straight person, is there any difference between a black and white person? If not, how come so many people freak out when they see a black person in their neighbourhood? It's exactly the same argument. People being offended by something arbitrary doesn't install in the issue some reason or logic.
In this case, you are correct there. I just have no problem with the destruction of the website because I dislike segragation based upon sexuality. I think it's petty and vulger, whether chosen by the generally persecuted subculture or the persecuter uberculture, I dislike it.
off-topic-edit: Just curious Nexxo, is there a reason you spelt it "borne" and not just "born"? The internet seems to think that the two spellings are variations of the same word, so I'm curious if there is perhaps a reason you would choose to use borne over born for the meaning you conveyed.
Erm, yeah actually, there is. Quite a bit of difference. Physical make up, suseptibility to diseases, etc. Where there isn't a difference is mental ability, which is what traditionally white people got wrong (check out the 1911 Encyclopedia Britannica) and where the bulk of past racism came from.
As I said earlier, this arengument isn't stemming from homophobia but rather going too far the other way, presuming everyone is the same, when in reality they're not. As well as the obvious difference in sexual drive, being homosexual often (but of course not always) with differences, such as bases of interest. Yes I know I'm generalising here, but if there wasn't a difference, we wouldn't have sites like gaygamer.net in the first place. By it's sheer existence and popularity it proves there is a difference, so it seems rather futile to pretend there isn't.
What about the television shows, films, etc with husbands, wives, and kids. What about the Madi Gras parade with all the half naked women running around flashing their chests at everyone. Lots of families go to see the madi gras parade not just drunk college kids. Or the Carnival parade in Rio with hundreds half naked, sparkly clothed women. Or all the employees where you work with pictures of the wife and kids sitting on their desks for all to see. Or the football half time shows with half naked cheerleaders. What about all the strangers around you overhear talking about his wife that, her husband that, my kids whatever and their trip to Europe, day at the game, etc. Or the boyfriend girlfriend walking down the street holding hands, kissing. Or the guy and girl flirting at your favorite bar.
Do all these blatant displays of heterosexuality being pushed in your face bother you? Of course they don't, that's because they are your tribe and you feel safe and unthreatened. Humans, most mammal critters in fact, are cautious, afraid or even violent toward anyone not in their particular "tribe". I'm not specifically say that you are afraid or violent, not at all. It's just something to think about.
I can understand the "need" for online communities like GayGamers. It's a place where one can both talk about games and the problems that come with homosexuality (telling the family/friends, the local community's response and society in general). I don't really see it as a need to segregate themselves from the rest of the gamer community, as opposed to for example the "gay olympic games" and stuff like that (in my book, organising special events only for the homosexual [same goes for any group/minority/community/etc] community is voluntarily segregating yourself, though of course it does not warrant any abuse).
The attacks on this site are stupid, to say the least. It's not like they're conspiring to take over the world. If anything, these script kiddies should focus their pathetic efforts on attacking the servers of the worldwide zionist-communist-illuminati-skull&bones-UN-conspiracy to have a penguin as Emperor (hehehe get it? I'm a hoot!) of the World.
Still, some good ol' nuclear war would solve all this ****. Cockroaches don't DoS eachother over sexuality.
Edit:
I think its fair enough for them to have a gay gamer site tbh, if they want somewhere to talk about stuff like that, fine, as long as they don't exclude anyone else
Why shouldn't they have an area to discuss it, like we have a place to discuss mods, or all the other billion sites out there
As long as their not spamming their web address or posting disgusting ad's everywhere, hows it harming anyone else
Before this article i didn't even know about the site, and personally, i still doubt ill visit it, but its their right to have their own space on the web, where they aren't hurting anyone else
But thats what 90% of the world is comfortable with and totally is their life. A married guy has his family, thats his life, seeing it on TV obviously is not a problem. But then, we're you offended the first time you watched Will and Grace? I bet not, because it was funny and totally not offensive to a straight person 99.6% of the time.
I don't believe there is a win-win solution to be had here. Without some showing of heterosexual practices, television as we know it would cease to exist.
People keep stating how its uncomfortable for gay people to be in this heterosexual world, but do you have a solution to offer? They need just deal with it the way they always have. Couldn't negative treatment help to motivate and strengthen them spiritually?
I have no idea what I'm saying and am just rambling, but I swear there are some good points buried in there.
The solution is simple: allow people to integrate. It works just fine in many cultures. As I said before: if they are not allowed to integrate, they will marginalise. And then they will start to compete. And they may just start to beat the majority at their own game.
Science did not come in vogue again until Descartes started to mutter "Cogito, ergo sum". But the ancient Greeks taught us that facts coupled to logical deductive reasoning allow us to test hypotheses. When they pass the test they are considered "true" for a given value of "true" (usually 95% statistical probability)". We may change our hypotheses and associated models/theories of reality as new facts crop up, and better methods of fact collection (measurement and observation) and testing, but the facts themselves don't change.
Yes, and while those niches are understandable in a society where something is totaly illegal and subversive (like being gay in the 50's UK say) they will ultimately stand in the way of integration. I argue that in the UK we have today, a largely tollerant (not neccesarily embracing, but tollerant) society, people need to come out of those comfortable niches if they want to ever gain total and complete "so-what?" status when announcing their sexuality.
As for the counter-argument to my black/white thing, take black to mean a very dark-skinned caucasian (yes, they exist). The only differences there are going to be social, and there is no need for them in the long term.
Bloody Carribeans, get rid of the lot of em. Grumble moan.
See, pointless, if that was serious I'd look like a **** (I do generally, but that's a moot point).
Discrimination makes the discriminator (right word for the person who discrimates against someone?) look like an idiot.
I live in a gay neighborhood in a big city. It's very nice living there, it is very comfortable and I feel safe, I can just be myself without fear. May sub-cultures seem to do the same thing, they self-segregate themselves. Some because of fear, some because of shared culture, some because they are forced into ghettos, it depend and the state, region, country you live in. For me it is fear that brought me into and keeps me in our cities gay ghetto. It is difficult to help someone else understand how much fear and shame alot of us constantly have. I don't know, maybe for gay's who grew up in more recent times don't have such fear and internalized shame.
Kind of funny. When a particular sub-culture gets integrated to the state where it is eh, no big deal then it seems that over time those "ghettos" fade away and turn into tourist attractions, lol. This is the french quarter, this is china town, this is german town, etc. Most people don't frown on those places, in fact they celebrate the distintive flavor they have added to the American stew.
Anyway, my two cents.
Agree. Segregation is the biggest cause of all problems, then those removing themselves wonder why people dont understand them. :?
This is very typical of how each ethnic group established themselves in the USA during their various periods of emigration. Each grop faced segregation and minority status upon arriving in America - "Help Wanted: Irish need not apply" was not an uncommon sight once upon a time. These groups banded together with their own and formed small communities that worked together for support. This is what Nexxo talked about earlier in the thread: If they weren't allowed to integrate, they formed communities and competed against the established majority. After pockets of rebellion and eventual integration, barriers broke down and the people eventually spread out among the general populace.
-monkey
The point is (he sighed in exasperation), that they did not start the segregation. The straight majority did. But I guess it is not nearly as much fun excluding people if they don't want to join in anyway.
And my point is that I did not start the segragation, but that some people choose to continue it. Stop being a generalising apoligist ffs. Plenty of cultures, sub-cultures, and groups get s**t on by other people over the years. I can't help that, what I can say from my own point of view is that untill there is total integration, there is going to be prejudice, and the straight majority as you name it is never going to adjust it's entire culture to be like the gay minority one which has been carved out due to exclusion in previous generations (and nor should it). I am not saying gay people should fit in. Just that I see no reason why they shouldn't, that I personally don't like the idea of differentiation simply based upon what hole you poke, and that my belonging to a straight majority doesn't make me guilty of the homophobia, bigotry, and general ****wittery of history.
You're right. If we were all dead there would be no more problems.
The ol' tinternet is full with sites dedicated to groups, themes, hobbies, styles, its the very nature of the beast. There's a whole lot more that combines these groups, it is human nature to form groups, whether virtual or not. I wonder if there would be this much fuss over a "Singles-Gamers" site, oh... wait... that's stereotyping too!
long and short, My pet hate is to see one entity forcing its views on others, virtual terrorism like this is just small minded. But above all else "Opinions are like farts, everyone's but yours stink"
Sorry to bring the thread back from the dead but I think you've pretty much hit the nail on the head there dude, nice one :)
But even if it was, God created Free Will too. ;) That's the thing about the concept of an omnipotent Creator: everything starts ands ends with Him.
Hate to disagree here on such a sensitive issue, but Homosexuality CAN be a choice. True, for some people it is the default position and is 'hardwired' to them, I dont disagree with that. However, there are people who choose to be gay. I know a few, who have made this choice for various political, social and idealogical reasons. These are people who aren't bisexual, but are straight people who choose to be gay for periods of their life or with specific people. They accept that choice as a part of their identity, but seperate it from the view that they are explicitly gay or bi-sexual.
Many aspects of identity which people think as being intrinsically part of them are, in fact, actually only choices or default positions which they never challenge, evidence of which can be seen through their use of language, among other things. (I only mention language because that happens to be my specialty and where I applied this notion.)
Sexuality is, like gender and political views, a fluid thing for many people.
Does that make those people actually gay though? If you are straight and just choosing to find someone of the same gender attractive (for whatever reason) I'm not sure I'd say that makes them homosexual in the same way someone who is hard-wired that way is. Or maybe you weren't implying that - I'm not sure :D
And Nexxo arguing with Spec, lol, loving it.
As for the site, well it's a site for gamers that happen to be gay, no big deal here.
Shame it's being forced out by arseholes.
I'd say yes, they are actually gay. For a bit. Or something. The point is that they are gay by choice, not some biological or pshycological factor which cannot be removed.
However, as RTT says:
Consider the following factors:
1. Homosexuality (and bisexuality) occurs in all cultures, irrespective of whether this is approved of or not. In some cultures there is a very strong conditioning/upbringing against homosexuality --no way our child learned such behaviour from us, doctor/vicar/officer. Yet it still occurs to the same extent as in more tolerant cultures;
2. Many gay people report knowing they were strongly attracted to the same sex well before they knew what homosexuality was.
3. Homosexuality has genetic and neurological correlates.
4. Homosexuality has resisted all attempts at psychological treatment, even in willing
victimsvolunteers who wanted to be "cured" from their homosexuality. At best, people manage a compromise of celibacy or living a lie.On a tangent, there is apparently no branch of the animal kingdom which doesn't have homosexuality within it. Weird, eh?
None of that really matters imo though, stupid pointless discrimination is discrimination.
But I suspect that like Kinsey says, people's sexual behaviour cannot simply be pigeonholed neatly in dichotomous "gay or straight" terms (it isn't in other species), and that there are bisexuals. But just because people's orientation may fall on a spectrum (rather than one of three discrete points: straight, gay or bi) does not necessarily make it more of a free choice.
Mincers? Have I missed something? :p
Just for those saying that homosexuality is a choice. It most certainly is not - and if people DO have the ability to chose, they are VERY lucky people.
Think about it - would you chose a life of straight "normality", predominantly free of prejudice, kids on tap whenever needed with no stigma attached?
-or-
chose a life of constant ridicule as witnessed in this thread and on said website, constantly being frowned upon by society, fearing attacks and/or abuse for walking along a street with a loved one.
Take a second to think about that. I bet I could gauge your answer in oooh... 2 seconds maybe? Yeah, exactly.
People don't chose to be who they are, it's in their genetics/DNA/whatever - basically it's hardwired. Hardwired in the exact same sense you don't have control over which natural eye/hair colour you have, what colour your skin is or how many digits you have on one hand. Yes, social conditioning (AKA, being pushed into the closet by right-wing, religious nuts or otherwise, gingers dying their hair for fear of ridicule) or physical interference can change or mask these features, but without those, you're stuck with them.
I feel that GayGamers has as much right to exist as a Bit-Tech CSS Clan website - or even the BiT website/forums itself - it's there to bring a certain group of people together from all around the world that have a common feature/interest together, and in which they can discuss things with likeminded people. And those that are saying they're going to create a site for Ginger gamers - why not? It's a feature that was hardwired into you, and your website members would all have something in common, a level ground in which they could base conversation on if they want to. For gay people, I think it makes perfect sense. Because unlike hair colour, sexuality dominates who your life partner will be, who you engage in intimate acts with, and that website could be a very good place to meet a likeminded life partner. And you'd soon be bitching if a load of gay guys hit on you because you're a geek.
You either like the same sex, or you like the opposite sex
Either way, you would give the other a second thought, and to be with the other will repulse you
Just as a lot of straight people think that gay is disgusting etc etc, i think a lot of gay people are also like that
If you try and kiss a lesbian (OK I'm assuming were all guys here) I'm sure she will push you away, stating that she fancies women ...