PGR4 won't fit on a DVD, content axed

For some reason, Bizzare are using seperate textures for day and night, and that's what eats up the space. I'm not a coding or graphics whizz, but that strikes me a little odd. Surely one set of textures and a decent lighting system would do the trick. You don't see Crackdown saying "insert disk 2" when it gets dark.

You might not see that but pgr4 was looking absolutely fantastic and even without day and night. Which im very happy that its gone since I can't race in dark. I crash too much. It will be better, less realistic but hey you dont drift round corners at 100 mph in real life either. Well just becuase sony has the space doesnt make it better, gran turismo is their leading racing game and its horrible, whereas xbox 360 has forza and pgr exclusive enough said.

Can they not just sell it to people through xbox live?

Originally Posted by fwalm
u might not see that but pgr4 was looking absolutely fantastic and even without day and night which im very happy about its gone since i cant race in dark i crash to much it will be better, less realistic but hey you dont drift round corners at 100 mph in real life either and well just becuase sony has the space doesnt make it better gran turismo is their leading racing game and its horrible whereas xbox 360 has forza and pgr exclusive enough said

**** me mate, have you ever heard of full stops?!

lol thats funny. But why not make it a 2 Disc Game???

Originally Posted by kenco_uk
**** me mate, have you ever heard of full stops?!

You do not need full stops when you talk utter dribble ;)

Originally Posted by kenco_uk
**** me mate, have you ever heard of full stops?!

lol breathe mate breathe!!!!!! Thats it, in and out.

sony are being sued left right and centre for stealing technology from everywhere. There processor is stolen, there blu-ray drive stolen, the dual shock that was removed from the PS3 pads, because, it was also stolen. six axies, another technology stolen! these online service, stolen ideas that mircosoft and nintendo laid down years ago.

sony is not a innovator, there plagiarists! by stealing all these ideas the PS3 should only cost 50p as there are not paying any royalties to the creator of these technology & ideas. instead they are just robbing everyone blind with there piece of crap!

i cant wait for sony to fall, so microsoft and nintendo can actual stand out and be counted as the innovators that they so are!

simple lighting system or xbox live downloadable content should sort the problem out, but if there maxing out a DVD9 is the other content actual any good or just padding!?!

i would rather have 9GB of solid gameplay than 50GB of wadding!

Originally Posted by cjoyce1980
sony are being sued left right and centre for stealing technology from everywhere. There processor is stolen, there blu-ray drive stolen, the dual shock that was removed from the PS3 pads, because, it was also stolen. six axies, another technology stolen! these online service, stolen ideas that mircosoft and nintendo laid down years ago.

sony is not a innovator, there plagiarists! by stealing all these ideas the PS3 should only cost 50p as there are not paying any royalties to the creator of these technology & ideas. instead they are just robbing everyone blind with there piece of crap!

i cant wait for sony to fall, so microsoft and nintendo can actual stand out and be counted as the innovators that they so are!

ok ???? Do you want to read what you wrote and back it up with evidence?

Ok Yup DVD size is limited. But then when you buy a 360 game you done have to wait until it installs vast amounts of data onto the hard drive like the PS3.....

The Day/Night texture thing confuses me, a good lightbox will solve the problems

Whats the point? make to 2 dvd's duh! I remember the days when i had to swap 7 cd's to install a game, or 9 floppys. And now we remove half of a game because it wont fit on one dvd..

OOOOoo let me guess! It was Sony talk...

ah that figures

Why not fit it onto a HD DVD? Or is it a case that people dont want to buy the Elite, or the HD DVD drive, or is it that USB 2 simply isnt quick enough?
Just spit balling here.

Sam

Games can be cross disc, look at Blue Dragon

Two or more discs can work for linear games like Resident Evil 4 and Final Fantasy but not for driving games. It would be a pain in the ass having to change disc every time you wanted to play a different track and would be incredibly impractical to implement over live. Not that sony has the last laugh - the read speed on it's blu-ray drive is much slower than the 360's dvd meaning you need to install games to load those masses of textures.

then thay have to buy an HD-dvd drive for the xbox and it only holds 6gb more then an dvd9 disk (single layer hd-dvd), Dual layer HD-DVD disks cost alot and only offer 30gb as Blu-ray has 25gb or 50gb disks. i am in the blu-ray camp more for the disk space each disk offers just cant wait untill thay come down in price {wish it was not sony that made blu-ray heh HD-dvd be long gone now if it been supported by tosh, just have to wait for the slow death of hd-dvd}
an combo HD-dvd reader, Blu-ray writer {DVD burner as well} i take as well i be able to back up my servers disk content

to make it 2 dvd thay have to update the xbox so it stops the exit from game on disk eject should not be to hard

but i guss the next xbox will have an inbuilt HD-drive over blu-ray drive for game makers BD is better offers more content space

Originally Posted by DougEdey
The Day/Night texture thing confuses me, a good lightbox will solve the problems

Its not simple lighting though its the scenery and keeping the game interesting and looking nice, think about how a city is different at night versus the day, its not just because its dark its things like shop fronts etc. all the background stuff these will need there own textures and design.

Devs should be pressuring MS into reducing the prices of the HDDs so that they can start releasing more 'HDD required' games. That way devs like Bizzare who want to swap textures around rather than use lighting can unpack the files onto the HDD.

Originally Posted by sandys
Its not simple lighting though its the scenery and keeping the game interesting and looking nice, think about how a city is different at night versus the day, its not just because its dark its things like shop fronts etc. all the background stuff these will need there own textures and design.

But the builders don't come in everytime the lighting changes so they can replaster the front of the building...

As I said, I'm not a whizz at these things, but other games manage the day/night cycle without busting the space limits.

Originally Posted by mikeuk2004

Quote:

Originally Posted by cjoyce1980
sony are being sued left right and centre for stealing technology from everywhere. There processor is stolen, there blu-ray drive stolen, the dual shock that was removed from the PS3 pads, because, it was also stolen. six axies, another technology stolen! these online service, stolen ideas that mircosoft and nintendo laid down years ago.

sony is not a innovator, there plagiarists! by stealing all these ideas the PS3 should only cost 50p as there are not paying any royalties to the creator of these technology & ideas. instead they are just robbing everyone blind with there piece of crap!

i cant wait for sony to fall, so microsoft and nintendo can actual stand out and be counted as the innovators that they so are!

ok ???? Do you want to read what you wrote and back it up with evidence?

http://www.bit-tech.net/news/2007/05/25/sony_sued_for_blu-ray_patent/1#comments
http://www.techpowerup.com/?36327

Originally Posted by Bursar
Devs should be pressuring MS into reducing the prices of the HDDs so that they can start releasing more 'HDD required' games. That way devs like Bizzare who want to swap textures around rather than use lighting can unpack the files onto the HDD.

That seems sensible to me, but im sure there would be the negativity of people not wanting/affording a HDD blah etc. My downloaded content is there, why not temp textures etc?

Originally Posted by leexgx
then thay have to buy an HD-dvd drive for the xbox and it only holds 6gb more then an dvd9 disk (single layer hd-dvd), Dual layer HD-DVD disks cost alot and only offer 30gb as Blu-ray has 25gb or 50gb disks. i am in the blu-ray camp more for the disk space each disk offers just cant wait untill thay come down in price {wish it was not sony that made blu-ray heh HD-dvd be long gone now if it been supported by tosh, just have to wait for the slow death of hd-dvd}
an combo HD-dvd reader, Blu-ray writer {DVD burner as well} i take as well i be able to back up my servers disk content

to make it 2 dvd thay have to update the xbox so it stops the exit from game on disk eject should not be to hard

but i guss the next xbox will have an inbuilt HD-drive over blu-ray drive for game makers BD is better offers more content space

Blu-Ray has more disk space than HD-DVD?

Really?

http://www.physorg.com/news87584681.html

Ratified and tested already, and will work with all current-gen and first-gen HD-DVD players. Blu-Ray on the other hand...not finalized.

Originally Posted by Bursar
But the builders don't come in everytime the lighting changes so they can replaster the front of the building...

Indeed but you wouldn't expect a console to render every single light source in a typical night time scene, a lot of background stuff would be prerendered requiring its own texture sets for the sake of speed.

There is also the case of making the level more interesting, realistic lighting might be cool in a simulation but in an arcade game too much detail could be lost with a night time level.

Originally Posted by Bursar
For some reason, Bizzare are using seperate textures for day and night, and that's what eats up the space. I'm not a coding or graphics whizz, but that strikes me a little odd. Surely one set of textures and a decent lighting system would do the trick.

That's what I was thinking. :/

Anyway, I'll give this one to Sony, I guess. HAI FAIVE!

They really should make use of the HDD for games.

I remember the days when you had 2 flavours for some games, floppy and CD, the latter having extra content
why not PGR4 and PGR4+ ? on DVD and HD-DVD respectively ?

MS have repeatedly stated that they won't allow the HD-DVD to be used for games. I suspect primarily because it's quite an expensive add-on and they haven't sold as many as they may have hoped. There may be technical reasons as well, but I would suspect that the majority of 360 owners would have the HDD already, so that would make more sense.

Two options:

• compress environment data to fit onto a DVD-ROM, then uncompress and install onto the hard disk drive at first use
• continue development as planned, however, include a second disc, a CD-ROM, with data that could not fit on the primary DVD and install it onto the hard disk drive at first use; run from only the DVD-ROM thereafter.

Problem with that is not everybody buys a premium, there are a lot of people out there who just have a Core model with no HDD and MS have to support them.

This is the problem with having such a cut down cheap model it restricts the experience of the people with the full fut model or forces devs to do a fork if they want to gve the full experience, but having two versions of one game out there means that one version is not going to sell well and therefore cost you one way or another, much easier just to do the one size fits all approach.

Originally Posted by sandys
Problem with that is not everybody buys a premium, there are a lot of people out there who just have a Core model with no HDD and MS have to support them.

This is the problem with having such a cut down cheap model it restricts the experience of the people with the full fut model or forces devs to do a fork.

Lol... I was seriously convinced it came with a hard disk drive all this time after hearing so many people claim it to be such "great value" whereas a PS3 wasn't.

Originally Posted by sandys
Problem with that is not everybody buys a premium, there are a lot of people out there who just have a Core model with no HDD and MS have to support them.

I know that, but there are games coming that require the HDD. Bizarre should have added PGR4 to that list.

There are games coming that are rumoured to require a hard disc but I doubt they will surface, MS controls there platform well and from a user experience and sales perspective cutting your market down by requiring a HDD or HD-DVD would be a mistake, doesn't matter how big the sticker on the box is it will be a returns nightmare and will impact sales, there may be games where the experience is enhanced by the HDD (caching purposes etc.) but I doubt it will ever be a requirement, currently the market even at 10mill is too small, unless the ratio is something like 98% have HDD but I doubt that though, between me and my friends its a 60/40 split.

And screw over the customers who went for the core? "You can play the all new PGR4. You just need the $100 addon first!". That doesn't roll off anyway you try and spin it as far as 360 goes. MS advertised the 360 as not HDD dependent when clearly it should have been.

Originally Posted by sandys
There are games coming that are rumoured to require a hard disc but I doubt they will surface

Football Manager 2006
Final Fantasy XI Online

Simple, provide a two disk game, with the advice to install the second DVD's content onto the hard drive and then run from the first.

Only got the core model? Then just disk swap, it's hardly that much of a chore, and not all that many people have the core model to be honest, most have hard disks.

Originally Posted by Bursar
Football Manager 2006
Final Fantasy XI Online

Doh :D

Originally Posted by Amon
Lol... I was seriously convinced it came with a hard disk drive all this time after hearing so many people claim it to be such "great value" whereas a PS3 wasn't.

Me too, downloading it through live would be a bad idea if you have no where to save it too

Originally Posted by themax
And screw over the customers who went for the core? "You can play the all new PGR4. You just need the $100 addon first!". That doesn't roll off anyway you try and spin it as far as 360 goes. MS advertised the 360 as not HDD dependent when clearly it should have been.

The majority of console sales for the 360 are for the premium system, if they bump down the price of the HDD, they won't annoy too many customers if they required the 360 to have a HDD.

I think Bizzare would probably be able to squeeze PGR4 onto one DVD if they really tried, they could utilise that procedural texturing doohicky that a few of the xbox live arcade games use to cut down the size of the game.

Lump all the night textures on a second disc so if person X has the HDD they can install them and if person Y has no HDD he only can play in daylight, although personally I don't know of anyone with a 360 and no HDD.

If things do get to the point where console games have to be installed it wouldn't be surprising what with consoles becoming more and more like PCs

Originally Posted by cjoyce1980
sony are being sued left right and centre for stealing technology from everywhere. There processor is stolen, there blu-ray drive stolen, the dual shock that was removed from the PS3 pads, because, it was also stolen. six axies, another technology stolen! these online service, stolen ideas that mircosoft and nintendo laid down years ago

Um dude, do you actually know what you are talking about or did you just want to poke at Sony a bit ?

There processor is stolen

Actually the cell was developed by 3 companies, IBM, Sony and someone else (who pulled out i think ?)

there blu-ray drive stolen

Where the f**k did that come from ?

the dual shock that was removed from the PS3 pads, because, it was also stolen

Possibly, but lets not get into that debate, i find it hard to believe you can patent to different sized semi-circle weights that are spun to create a rumble effect - but that is the world we live in

six axies, another technology stolen!

How do you know this was stolen, Sony may have been working on this for ages, just because Nintendo came out with an idea at the same time doesn't mean Sony stole the idea

these online service, stolen ideas that mircosoft and nintendo laid down years ago

Where do you get that idea, Sony had the network adaptor for the PS2 ages ago, in fact i have a review of the PS2 in a magazine where they said there were planning this (however they also said they were planning a HDD which never happened either)

Get some facts, get a clue, then come back

Having checked Bizarres site it seems that night and day cycles were ditched in favor of more locations which is fair enough, also there are still night venues for those that are best at night so its not really a big deal.

In fact looking at it I'm thinking I should remove my Xbox from ebay.....I only bought my xboxes for PGR mainly, comes from being a die hard MSR nut but I don't know PGR3 was a let down.

Originally Posted by sandys
In fact looking at it I'm thinking I should remove my Xbox from ebay.....I only bought my xboxes for PGR mainly, comes from being a die hard MSR nut but I don't know PGR3 was a let down.

Year PGR3 was utter tripe :(

Much preferred PGR2, it had a better range of cars instead of just sports cars to uber cars, they had some normal ones too.

OMG as soon as Sony can justify the reason for the Blu-Ray drive, all the 360 owners try justifying their aged DVD-ROMs, or they start spouting out how THEY could do a better job than a M$ Games Studios development team, even though the DVD-ROMs are clearly holding a major title back (yes I know it's only certain game content, but this still shouldn't happen, especially right now; only 2 years out). I mean c'mon, so what if the Blu-Ray drive (in current PS3's) has slow read times, that's the price you pay when you have a brand-new technology that what will allow current/future game developers the ability to offer more in terms of content, graphics, etc. rather than less in this case (I mean, that's why you bought a next-gen console right? For better graphics, more content, etc.). Current/future 360 titles are of course geared towards offering better graphics/performance than the previous offerings, yet if this cycle continues into the future then, we the 360 gamer will be affected, and probably not just in terms of game content. My basic point is this: if this is happening right now for 360 games, what about future ones?, or will there be a backdoor to this? Honestly, if M$/devs can actually implement a game/games that can get around this, then Blu-Ray has lost my vote, but until then Sony has justified its decision to include the Blu-Ray drive.

/\ Well, I guess after reading that it wasn't disk space that contributed to the lack of content (which, for all I know could've been spin by M$ to shy away from the fact that it was a lack of disk space, but we'll never know until future games start having the same problems), Blu-Ray is looking a little dimmer and Sony better prove later on that it was worth the extra $ or it's not just going to be me that's rasing the eyebrow. I still think that more space is better, but if the costs outweigh the benefits then I don't see a reason for having it...

Originally Posted by cjoyce1980
http://www.bit-tech.net/news/2007/05/25/sony_sued_for_blu-ray_patent/1#comments
http://www.techpowerup.com/?36327

Ok I don't normally post on forums where fan boys can be found. HOWEVER there are some major factual inaccuracies in many of the reports regarding stolen tech by Sony. Firstly Sony weren't sued over Blu-ray, the Blu-ray consortium were. They were actually sued over the plastic polymer used in protecting the disc. The law suit will FAIL as Sony are actually using a patent held by TDK for the plastic which pre-dates ANY US of A based patents!!! Also to the chap who posted the link of a HD-DVD with 51gb capacity, yep triple layer, thats as much as is physically possible to get out of it because of the width of the pits on the actual disk. The 50gb Blu-ray disk is only dual layer, they are already working on a quad layer disc (expected early 2008) that'll have 100gb capacity.

Rumble, Sony actually settled out of court with Immersion technology because there was a good chance that Sony hadn't infringed the patents quite like Immersion first claimed. Microsoft also settle by buying into immersion. So are they thieves as well? Also Nintendo had to settle. Both filed patents in Japan not knowing Imerssion held very similar patents in the USA. FACT.

As for Sixaxis it uses a mercury switch which is actually far more accurate at sensing movement while Nintendo use infra red. Sony have been working on Motion sensing at SCEE for absolutely ages, Archer McLeans game Mercury for the PSP was original ment to ship with a mercury switch very similar to the one found in the sixaxis. THe reason Sony Didn't release motion sensing for the PS2 was because it was too expensive to mass produce at the time especially when compared to the eye toy, which gave much the same result and was a cheaper tech.

As for Home, I'm not sure but I believe this was originally intended for the PS2 but was scrapped either due to technical limitations of the system, the fact that they thought there weren't enough PS2 users with the network adapter to warrant the expense of developing it for a limited PS2 online community OR the one I personally believe they wanted to hold it back for the PS3 and actually have a killer online application.

As for the Cell patent infringement, that is an utter load of cobblers if you actually look at it. Its like ford saying I patent a automated moving object with four wheels!!! No one can own the patent for a multicore processing. If they do then Microsoft, Intel, AMD, IBM EVERYBODY is buggered. I don't know who was who asked but the Cell development team was Sony, IBM and Toshiba. Toshiba didn't pull out they just haven't used the Cell yet in any consumer products (they will).

I am not a Sony fan boy before anyone accuses me, I actually quite like my Xbox 360 even though it appears to hate me (broken down 7 flipping times now!!!). Yes I own a PS3 and so far the games have dissapointed me, Motorstorm cracking, R:FOM average the rest meh. I originally loved the Wii but by good its got old quick, people moan about the lack of PS3 games what about the Wii???? God I can't wait for Mario Kart and Metroid.

I used to work in the games industry (in the UK) and still have links to many a friend who still work in UK based devs, and I'm sorry Xbox 360 fan boys BUT the lack of a HDD as standard is hampering games developers, Microsoft have budged and now agreed to allow more HDD required games BUT the biggest problem is DVD9. Bizzare Creations are a British Studio based in Liverpool and are masters of compression techniques as anyone who has played the fore runner to PGR, Metropolis Street Racer will attest (on Dreamcast) also they've had the full backing of Microsft games studios. Trust me the version of PGR4 we will get on the disc will be compressed to the max. Rockstar another British dev are grumbling about DVD9 and compression, as are Free Radical and Epic Games (US based). DVD9 is a massive chain around Microsofts neck at the minute.

I won't get started on innovation in the games industry because I'll just go on forever suffice to say Sony aren't that bad, they've certainly innovated. B Bye

Originally Posted by bluesuedeshoes


As for Sixaxis it uses a mercury switch which is actually far more accurate at sensing movement while Nintendo use infra red. Sony have been working on Motion sensing at SCEE for absolutely ages, Archer McLeans game Mercury for the PSP was original ment to ship with a mercury switch very similar to the one found in the sixaxis. THe reason Sony Didn't release motion sensing for the PS2 was because it was too expensive to mass produce at the time especially when compared to the eye toy, which gave much the same result and was a cheaper tech.

Sorry, that's just wrong. Infra-red is used for pointer position. Movement is by a 3-axis accelerometer

Originally Posted by DougEdey
Sorry, that's just wrong. Infra-red is used for pointer position. Movement is by a 3-axis accelerometer

Fair point, but there is still considerable difference in the tech being used. The reality is Sony haven't implemented motion sensing in anywhere near as competent a way as Nintendo have, the shape of the sixaxis just doesn't lend itself to motion sensing gaming any way, the wiimote is pure genius. Shigeru Miyamoto I salute you sir!!!

Originally Posted by bluesuedeshoes
Fair point, but there is still considerable difference in the tech being used. The reality is Sony haven't implemented motion sensing in anywhere near as competent a way as Nintendo have, the shape of the sixaxis just doesn't lend itself to motion sensing gaming any way, the wiimote is pure genius. Shigeru Miyamoto I salute you sir!!!

Shigsey is a games producer. He'll have some input but not 100% decision

Originally Posted by DougEdey
Shigsey is a games producer. He'll have some input but not 100% decision

Yes Shigsey is actually Director and General Manager of Nintendo Entertainment Analysis and Development (EAD) and has been since way before the launch of the DS. He was responsible for the design of N64 and Gamecube pads. He is also attributed to the design of the Wiimote. Remember he joined NCL as a Product Designer. He may not have developed the tech inside but the ideas shape etc are all pure Shegeru Miyamoto, unless he lied at last years TGS!

Originally Posted by bluesuedeshoes
Also to the chap who posted the link of a HD-DVD with 51gb capacity, yep triple layer, thats as much as is physically possible to get out of it because of the width of the pits on the actual disk. The 50gb Blu-ray disk is only dual layer, they are already working on a quad layer disc (expected early 2008) that'll have 100gb capacity.

i should look more on the size on BD disks but 100gb be insane and very useful

but as an rock solid standard what will game makers use HD-dvd offers 30gb now (15gb Hd-dvd pointless as it only offers 6gb more then DVD9) or BD as for an slandered as it can give them 25gb strate away or 50gb later on i not consider HD-dvd disks my self as thay offer limited space

game makers probably never use the tipple layer disks as thay will most likey be incompatible with some drives but i am probably thinking 2 or so years later on before thay even Think of useing them but with some games starting to need 2-3 dvds to install it probly happen soon

just why couldent of every one just work togever and make an format that was made all of the companys happy but as far as i can tell its just simpley easyr to make HD-DVD over BD drives now i have to wait probly longer until HD-dvd dies off and we get cheap drives

Originally Posted by leexgx
i should look more on the size on BD disks but 100gb be insane and very useful

but as an rock solid standard what will game makers use HD-dvd offers 30gb now (15gb Hd-dvd pointless as it only offers 6gb more then DVD9) or BD as for an slandered as it can give them 25gb strate away or 50gb later on i not consider HD-dvd disks my self as thay offer limited space

game makers probably never use the tipple layer disks as thay will most likey be incompatible with some drives but i am probably thinking 2 or so years later on before thay even Think of useing them but with some games starting to need 2-3 dvds to install it probly happen soon

just why couldent of every one just work togever and make an format that was made all of the companys happy but as far as i can tell its just simpley easyr to make HD-DVD over BD drives now i have to wait probly longer until HD-dvd dies off and we get cheap drives

Simple answer money!!! HD-DVD group had spent far too much money developing their format to hand over more of the patent rights and share of the money to make it economically viable for them to co-operate, and of course vice versa for the Blu-ray group. Both camps thought the financial hit they would take in the short term over lost RD monies was far out weighed by the possibility that they could actually win the format war. To me it looks like Blu-ray is slowly building a lead and certainly in the UK it is the more supported format in terms of retailers already just by looking at shelf space devoted to it. As for whether or not developers would use the space? Developers like to be lazy trust me, if they didn't have to compress things they wouldn't!!! lol. So eventually developers will fill the space, whether they fill it with worthwhile content is another question. GTA San Andreas was far to big a space for a game and wasn't at all focussed, and that was on DVD9. To me the question is whether the extra content that would fill up a 50gb Blu-ray disc would be worth having? More and more games developers it seems are moaning about the lack of space on DVD9 disc's and eventually that'll become a roar. I think the Xbox 360 was hampered long term by two things:

1) No HDD as standard. Sorry should have been a given in a next gen console!!!
2) No HD disc format drive as standard, yes it kept costs down, yes it allowed them to launch earlier, but given the failure rate of the damn thing perhaps their R&D techs could have done with the extra time to iron out the "kinks"

I'm sure the Xbox 360 has been a commercial success for Microsoft and will probably continue to do well and will definitely have a bigger installed user base than the original Xbox, and growing their base must have been their prime aim, given the massive dominance of the sector by Sony. However the long term life of the 360 doesn't look that good to me. Year two and devs are already grumbling about the systems limitations. A friend of mine who still works in games described the 360 and a Ferrari with push bike wheels!!! The comment was made because of the lack of HDD as standard and had nothing to do with the DVD9 format though. Made me chuckle, he is a Nintendo fan boy though.

GTA:SA already used a full dual layer DVD

Sadly, MS chose HD-DVD - but did not put the drive in the console, so the 360 is going to be severely limited in the future
The PS2 and X-Box were already starting to fill dual layer discs, and now the 360 is still lumbered with that same tech

If PGR4 will or wont fit on a dual layer, its just a matter of time before something else wont anyway

Originally Posted by completemadness
GTA:SA already used a full dual layer DVD

Sadly, MS chose HD-DVD - but did not put the drive in the console, so the 360 is going to be severely limited in the future
The PS2 and X-Box were already starting to fill dual layer discs, and now the 360 is still lumbered with that same tech

If PGR4 will or wont fit on a dual layer, its just a matter of time before something else wont anyway

I have to agree. I love my 360 its cheap and cheerful and has plenty of cool games, but there were rumours that Gears of War was hindered by the DVD format it terms of size of the game. Rockstar have hinted that the DVD format is causing problems with GTAIV and Bizzare made a similar statement, only to retract it, No doubt after their Microsoft paymasters had a gentle word. The only thing that bothers me is all the gloating Sony fan boys now!!!