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Racist car in Forza 2 causes controversy

Racist car in Forza 2 causes controversy

The car in question has been available for auction in Forza 2 before, despite Turn 10s attempts to block racist material.

User-generated content has proven a consistent thorn in the side of game developers since the first scandal, known as HotCoffeegate, hit the presses all those years ago and the controversy around the issue is still going strong today, as proven by recent troubles with Forza 2 fans.

Microsoft has had trouble moderating and controlling some racist fans of the new console driving sim, Forza 2, who continue to create objectionable material in spite of Microsoft's Live Online User Policy.

Under the terms of the User Policy, gamers are not allowed to;

“Publish, distribute or disseminate any topic, name, material, file or information that incites discrimination, hate, or violence towards one person or a group because of their race, religion, nationality, transgender status, homosexual status, or HIV/AIDS status, or that insults the victims of crimes against humanity by contesting the existence of those crimes.”

So, it's the standard 'No Nazis, plz' clause. Seems fair enough to us.

Since the launch of the game though some minorities have flaunted this agreement, the most recent example of which is the auctioning off of a user-designed 1957 Mercedes 300SL adorned with the colours of the NSDAP and SS and Nazi logos.

Reportedly there are racist statements which cover the car, ranging from 'White Power' and 'Heil Hitler' to other more disgusting remarks which aren't fit to print. Turn 10, the developers of Forza 2, has attempted to tackle the issue by closing offensive auctions and providing abuse reports for offended gamers.

Most worrying of all is that this isn't the first time the car has apparently been on the auctioning block.

How should developers tackle user-generated content? At what point does personal responsibility end and corporate responsibility begin? Let us know your thoughts.

84 Comments

Discuss in the forums Reply
DougEdey 4th July 2007, 12:08 Quote
To be expected, it is a community. And the T&C state that he will be kicked when someone tells Microsoft instead of telling everyone else and then microsoft.
Jamie 4th July 2007, 12:10 Quote
I'm doing this to my Exige tonight.
mikeuk2004 4th July 2007, 12:38 Quote
Nazi stickers are too far but "White Power"?? I bet it be fine and not racist if it said "Black Power".
DougEdey 4th July 2007, 12:46 Quote
"White Power" could refer to sugar based fuels :p
DXR_13KE 4th July 2007, 12:48 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by DougEdey
"White Power" could refer to sugar based fuels

or white people as fuel......

edit: i think this racist thing is a little to much, the car it self can be the nazi racer..... it has all the attributes....
Almightyrastus 4th July 2007, 12:54 Quote
White power in itself might raise a few eyebrows but in the context that it is in on this car alongside the rest of the design then there can't really be any other meaning read into it. At least there wasn't a Valknut on it this time, that is the symbol that annoys me in this sort of thing as it gives other, innocent people, a very bad name.
mikeuk2004 4th July 2007, 13:01 Quote
Id doubt it but, what if the creator of the car was a Nazi. Is it no different to other believers puting their symbols on their car designs.

I personally dont like Nazi's for all the same reasons but if it truly is offensive to you, you could buy it on the auction and paint other it. That would get it out of circulation until the next comes along.

Trading of real Nazi stuff is ilegal so I guess they should make virtual trading of Nazi stuff ilegal too and designs of this nature should only be used by its designer. And you can choose not to race with such people if it bothers you, or ram them off the raod :)
topher 4th July 2007, 13:23 Quote
Running out to get Forza 2 so i ca buy it :) . Im with mike2004 if it said Black Power no one would bat an eyelid. Its about time this pc crap was stopped and we started telling it like it is.
Fusen 4th July 2007, 13:28 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by topher
Running out to get Forza 2 so i ca buy it :) . Im with mike2004 if it said Black Power no one would bat an eyelid. Its about time this pc crap was stopped and we started telling it like it is.

are you some how insinuating that the idea behind "white power" is correct? o.0
topher 4th July 2007, 13:30 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fusen
are you some how insinuating that the idea behind "white power" is correct? o.0





are you some how insinuating that the idea behind "Black Power groups" is correct? Two sides to every coin
Flibblebot 4th July 2007, 13:37 Quote
There are, apparently, such things as positive racism and negative racism. This make it possible, in the US, to have all-black colleges (+ve racism) but not all-white colleges (-ve racism). Strange, but true.

In my book, both are just kinds of racism, and both are equally wrong.
Dr. Strangelove 4th July 2007, 13:56 Quote
First off, I do NOT think that the car in the picture is cool or in anyway fun.
However I think many of you are right that the whole racism thing is very imbalanced, i think one of my friends called it "White Guilt".
An even more (to me at least) silly thing is that many Germans still feel the need to apologize for WWII, I mean we are talking about people apologizing for something their grandparents did. I think we call all agree that WWII was a bad time in world history and that nasty things happend than no-one would be proud of, but this is hardly the fault of someone who was born several decades after it all happened.
I think it's time the whole world took one (or two) step(s) back and tried to look at this whole racism thing objectively. I'm not saying that there isn't racism (cause there is), and I'm not saying that we should not try to stop it where and when ever it happens. But people seem to have gotten used to being extremely sensitive on certain subjects without even actually stopping to think for them selfs.
dognosh 4th July 2007, 14:38 Quote
I got excited for a moment as I thought it said "White Powder" , sign me up:D
Nexxo 4th July 2007, 14:40 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by Flibblebot
There are, apparently, such things as positive racism and negative racism. This make it possible, in the US, to have all-black colleges (+ve racism) but not all-white colleges (-ve racism). Strange, but true.

In my book, both are just kinds of racism, and both are equally wrong.

Positive discrimination vs. negative discrimination, basically. Which is which depends on the status of the group being discriminated.

If a disadvantaged status group is given negative treatment, it is considered negative discrimination. If it is given preferential treatment, it is considered positive discrimination. This is viewed as OK since it is meant to cancel out their disadvantages.

An advantaged status group is considered to enjoy their advantages because of positive discrimination (which may not even be spotted, because it is what people are used to; it is the social norm), so positive discrimination of the disadvantaged group is not really seen as disadvantaging the advantaged group, merely as levelling the playing field.

Where the whole idea falls down is with its sweeping generalisations about which is the advantaged group, and which the disadvantaged group. In terms of race for instance, not all white people are advantaged (some are really poor) or all black people disadvantaged (some are really just dumb)... Moreover, positive discrimination may create the mistaken impression that the disadvantaged group would be unable to perform at an equal level if they did not get this artificial boost. In the 70's some misguided proposals were made to statistically control for socio-economic disadvantages by adjusting the IQ scores of poorly performing black kids. Although statistically, this is a valid way of reducing measurement error and arriving at a hypothetical "true" score, in real life it cast suspicion on the validity of any black kid's high IQ score (is it "boosted", or is it "true"?).

It makes much more sense to level out the socio-economic inequalities between poor and wealthier people of course, but that is a lot harder to do than just making some token affirmative action gestures. People do not need positive discrimination any more than they need negative discrimination; they need equality.
specofdust 4th July 2007, 15:30 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by topher
are you some how insinuating that the idea behind "Black Power groups" is correct? Two sides to every coin

No, he's saying that any ideas that one race should form a power base or group based simply upon race is stupid. Which it is. Racism = the laziest kind of discrimination.

I fully support all and every ban against creators of racist material in this game, and in life in general.
olly_lewis 4th July 2007, 15:52 Quote
We that's my "Everyone has AIDS" care idea out the window... the Xbox Live TOS states you can't create content that is offensive to peoples, groups of people concerning their race, creed, culture, religion their gender or sexuality, as well as AIDs related content...

ah well the fun had to end sometime...
otispunkmeyer 4th July 2007, 16:07 Quote
i for one found this funny. im not racist but i still find it amusing. i find all the porno, anime and smut cars hilarious too.

i am of the band of thinking that everyone really spends too much time getting offended than they do actually doing anything useful or just having a good time. political correctness always has to shove its ugly mug into absolutely everything. so to does health and safety but thats not the issue here.

you can insult me an my beliefs all you want, but honestly i have better things....more important things in my life to be getting on with rather than wasting time screaming about how i have been offended and my feelings hurt.

suck it up.
otispunkmeyer 4th July 2007, 16:15 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr. Strangelove
First off, I do NOT think that the car in the picture is cool or in anyway fun.
However I think many of you are right that the whole racism thing is very imbalanced, i think one of my friends called it "White Guilt".
An even more (to me at least) silly thing is that many Germans still feel the need to apologize for WWII, I mean we are talking about people apologizing for something their grandparents did. I think we call all agree that WWII was a bad time in world history and that nasty things happend than no-one would be proud of, but this is hardly the fault of someone who was born several decades after it all happened.
I think it's time the whole world took one (or two) step(s) back and tried to look at this whole racism thing objectively. I'm not saying that there isn't racism (cause there is), and I'm not saying that we should not try to stop it where and when ever it happens. But people seem to have gotten used to being extremely sensitive on certain subjects without even actually stopping to think for them selfs.

yeah people are way too quick to scream offense when presented with something like this just because its a known taboo subject and thats like the generic response. they dont stop to think "hang on a sec.... does that actually offend me? do i care? does it mean anything at all? or should i just get on with this transaction and possibly reap in some mega bucks for my company and then enjoy a huge christmas bonus for it?"
Amon 4th July 2007, 16:19 Quote
I had a bit of a detached chuckle when I saw the image. This is because my brother is, unfortunately, pro-Nazi.
simosaurus 4th July 2007, 16:20 Quote
im suprised a white power promoting skinhead can operate two thumbsticks simultaeously
zoot2boot 4th July 2007, 16:27 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by mikeuk2004
Nazi stickers are too far but "White Power"?? I bet it be fine and not racist if it said "Black Power".

idiot.

i loled when i saw it. it's as much an anti german thing as it is an anti jews etc. thing. it's kinda linking the various outputs of the country at the time. i doubt anyone is going to be too offended by it but yeah, it's a little unfortunate.
Kipman725 4th July 2007, 17:22 Quote
The only other people who want the car are similar idiots so what's the problem... just move onto the next car if it offends you. Personaly I find the car amusing... I'm not sure why but I think if I played 360 and had xboxen live I would consider getting it for amusment.
DXR_13KE 4th July 2007, 18:09 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by zoot2boot
idiot.

he has a point, if i made a black car with "black people ornaments" and wrote "Black power", no one would make a fuss about this.
What steams me up is that if you are white hit a black person it is a hate crime, if you hit a white person it is "assault and battering" (IIRC), why? any kind of assault can be a hate crime no matter what color of skin.

i my self am indifferent to race and color, and to all of this "THIS IS NAZI/RACIST/COMMUNIST/HAS SEXUAL MATERIAL/HAS VIOLENCE!!!!! BAN IT!!!!!!", i just want peace.
specofdust 4th July 2007, 18:25 Quote
I think a lot of people would actually make a fuss about "Black power" DXR. Afterall, plenty of people here are making a fuss about the concept of it, aren't they?
knuck 4th July 2007, 19:01 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by Amon
I had a bit of a detached chuckle when I saw the image. This is because my brother is, unfortunately, pro-Nazi.

there are still pro nazi's ?!

man some people are ready to believe anything, as long as they can be sheeps and follow some stupid cult
L2wis 4th July 2007, 19:09 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nexxo
Positive discrimination vs. negative discrimination, basically. Which is which depends on the status of the group being discriminated.

If a disadvantaged status group is given negative treatment, it is considered negative discrimination. If it is given preferential treatment, it is considered positive discrimination. This is viewed as OK since it is meant to cancel out their disadvantages.

An advantaged status group is considered to enjoy their advantages because of positive discrimination (which may not even be spotted, because it is what people are used to; it is the social norm), so positive discrimination of the disadvantaged group is not really seen as disadvantaging the advantaged group, merely as levelling the playing field.

Where the whole idea falls down is with its sweeping generalisations about which is the advantaged group, and which the disadvantaged group. In terms of race for instance, not all white people are advantaged (some are really poor) or all black people disadvantaged (some are really just dumb)... Moreover, positive discrimination may create the mistaken impression that the disadvantaged group would be unable to perform at an equal level if they did not get this artificial boost. In the 70's some misguided proposals were made to statistically control for socio-economic disadvantages by adjusting the IQ scores of poorly performing black kids. Although statistically, this is a valid way of reducing measurement error and arriving at a hypothetical "true" score, in real life it cast suspicion on the validity of any black kid's high IQ score (is it "boosted", or is it "true"?).

It makes much more sense to level out the socio-economic inequalities between poor and wealthier people of course, but that is a lot harder to do than just making some token affirmative action gestures. People do not need positive discrimination any more than they need negative discrimination; they need equality.

Great post!!!

@ ghys... just look at Scientology lol :P im still baffeled at how these designs are created (i want a mario ferrari). But you know what the best thing about this whole thing is?

The forza ppl won't need to pull the auction because the auction system is borked and the car will most probab;y vanish under it's own accord anyway!!! Cars are constantly getting lost and credits keep falling into black holes... I think a forza dev made this car to distract ppl away from the fact they released an auction system without a single test.(part joke)
knuck 4th July 2007, 19:12 Quote
hehe. Let's not get started on scientology
CardJoe 4th July 2007, 19:20 Quote
LET'S GET STARTED ON SCIENTOLOGY!
Ramble 4th July 2007, 19:24 Quote
I have to say, I found that extremely funny.
knuck 4th July 2007, 19:26 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by CardJoe
LET'S GET STARTED ON SCIENTOLOGY!


and let's not forget to invite Matt Stone and Trey Parker
bjrcboy 4th July 2007, 20:08 Quote
Personally I'm with a majority of the people here. In this world there will always be racism and people should deal with it. Senior year in high school my teacher actually tried to get my expelled claiming I was a nazi and racist towards jews(Which I had been dating a jew for nearly two years by then HA!) But thats besides the point. If you dont like it then move on, there are still white supremacist, black panthers, KKK, hell there is even a Communist party on the ballet when you go to vote for a president in the states. Just move on people, it happened several years ago which most of us were never even apart of. If you dont like it dont buy it and if it offends you that much dont play with the guy who uses the car. Rant over.



Oh one more thing, I'm not racists. I hate ALL races equally HAHAH =)
Stonewall78 4th July 2007, 20:17 Quote
When I first saw a thumbnail of that picture I thought it was just a car with a "white" powered motor
Aankhen 4th July 2007, 22:24 Quote
All the "oh lol this is nothing you guys are just too sensitive" stuff is really irritating. I face discrimination based on the colour of my skin every day, so no, I won't just shrug it off. And frankly, I'm disgusted at the attitude displayed by the majority of posters here. Of course you can just smile and move along when you're not on the receiving end.
bjrcboy 4th July 2007, 23:01 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by Aankhen
...you can just smile and move along when you're not on the receiving end.

Everyone can always be on the receiving end. Even though I'm white my area is predominant mexican and asian, at my school there was only a 8 percent white population. I faced being the "white" boy every day. I was called a nazi, people would do the hitler arm raise thing to me, daily. I'm not saying shrug it off but, its in the damn past yeah it sucked for a lot of people(basically if you werent white with blonde hair and blue eyes) but how did it hurt you? Were you thrown in a concentration camp by the nazis, lynched by the KKK, ect..? I highly doubt that. Just always remember:

Sticks and stones may my break my bones, but words can never hurt me

For god sakes my legal name is B.J. imagine how hard that was for me in elementary and Jr High. They are just words and dont get all bent out of shape on it
DXR_13KE 4th July 2007, 23:07 Quote
Aankhen i was, during quite some time, the receiving end and i think this is a storm in a glass of water.
Painting a virtual car with this theme does not compare to the amount of racism, violence, ethnic hate, sex, etc..... we ingest every day when we watch tv, surf the web or even walk the streets.
Neji 5th July 2007, 01:20 Quote
I'm also surprised at some of the views of people on here. If you really think that the phrases 'White Power' and 'Black Power' have exactly the same meaning then I think you're wrong.

A lot of people say 'Oh this PC stuff has gone too far'. Looking at some of the attitudes on here, it seems like this social apathy stuff has gone too far.

If a white person hits a black person it's automatically a hate crime? What?!
nissanskyrice 5th July 2007, 01:23 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by bjrcboy
Everyone can always be on the receiving end. Even though I'm white my area is predominant mexican and asian, at my school there was only a 8 percent white population. I faced being the "white" boy every day. I was called a nazi, people would do the hitler arm raise thing to me, daily. I'm not saying shrug it off but, its in the damn past yeah it sucked for a lot of people(basically if you werent white with blonde hair and blue eyes) but how did it hurt you? Were you thrown in a concentration camp by the nazis, lynched by the KKK, ect..? I highly doubt that. Just always remember:

Sticks and stones may my break my bones, but words can never hurt me

For god sakes my legal name is B.J. imagine how hard that was for me in elementary and Jr High. They are just words and dont get all bent out of shape on it


That saying might have been true before political correctness and children seeing shrinks and whatnot. The ammended saying is now:
Sticks and stones may break my bones, but words will cause permanent psychological damage. :)
Aankhen 5th July 2007, 02:14 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by bjrcboy
I'm not saying shrug it off but, its in the damn past yeah it sucked for a lot of people(basically if you werent white with blonde hair and blue eyes) but how did it hurt you? Were you thrown in a concentration camp by the nazis, lynched by the KKK, ect..? I highly doubt that. Just always remember:

Sticks and stones may my break my bones, but words can never hurt me
That's simply not true. Words have more power than anything else. In fact, that adage strikes me as being the opposite of reality. Broken bones will heal in a matter of days, weeks, or months; emotional scars may take a lifetime, or may even never heal at all.
Quote:
For god sakes my legal name is B.J. imagine how hard that was for me in elementary and Jr High.
I'm sorry, I don't get it.
Quote:
They are just words and dont get all bent out of shape on it
They aren't "just" words. They reflect the underlying attitude of the people from whom they came, which I find highly disturbing.
Quote:
Originally Posted by DXR_13KE
Painting a virtual car with this theme does not compare to the amount of racism, violence, ethnic hate, sex, etc..... we ingest every day when we watch tv, surf the web or even walk the streets.
I dunno why that happens to you, but I don't ingest racism, violence, or ethnic hate every day through either TV or the Internet. Even if I did, it wouldn't validate things like this car. And I definitely don't group sex in the same category as racism or ethnic hate.
Quote:
Aankhen i was, during quite some time, the receiving end and i think this is a storm in a glass of water.
(Sorry for rearranging the post.)
I think what it boils down to is this: if you're okay with racism towards you, or simply don't think it's worth getting hot and bothered about, then don't. I don't think it's okay at all, and I'm going to make a noise about it. I also don't think that people who haven't been on the receiving end don't have any right to dismiss it. (Not necessarily pointing fingers at anyone here, just stating an opinion.)
bjrcboy 5th July 2007, 02:34 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by Aankhen


I'm sorry, I don't get it.


Its simple, a girl's mouth and a males smaller self equals a B*** J**

Now I completely agree with you on the whole thing and I'm not saying just because ones been on the reciving end means that they can relate to everyone. Its just that racisim will ALWAYS be around in one for or another and you have to live with it. It sucks but its true.:(
ThE-LyNX 5th July 2007, 02:40 Quote
Racism is and will probaly always be a touchy subject to a lot of people.

But in so many ways it seems to have got to a point where it is now used as a chess piece in arguments. +ve & -ve racism can be seen just about everywhere in day to day life, now i dont want to say that it is just a fact of life but it is there and needs to be dealt with. If its possible for people to be a little less sensitive about it and possibly open up some kinda dialogue to sort it all the better but always flying off the handle doesnt help, it just feeds the fire.
completemadness 5th July 2007, 03:17 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by Neji
If you really think that the phrases 'White Power' and 'Black Power' have exactly the same meaning then I think you're wrong.
whats the difference tbh

i think this whole tolerance bullsh*t is going far too far, its OK for a black person to attack a white person (verbally or physically) because their white, but its not ok for a white person to do it to a black person
that is quite frankly bo*****ks, the world is going crazy, hate crimes are bad, but it counts both ways - thats what people are trying to say here, and i agree 100%
Aankhen 5th July 2007, 04:53 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by bjrcboy
Its simple, a girl's mouth and a males smaller self equals a B*** J**
I considered that, but for some reason I thought the joke was too immature to be the problem… I was forgetting what people are like.
Quote:
Now I completely agree with you on the whole thing and I'm not saying just because ones been on the reciving end means that they can relate to everyone. Its just that racisim will ALWAYS be around in one for or another and you have to live with it. It sucks but its true.:(
I understand that, but I must point out that while I do think extreme reactions won't help, neither will it help to stand by and watch. :( I suppose there must be a happy medium between the two that I haven't quite discovered yet.
Neogumbercules 5th July 2007, 05:22 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by otispunkmeyer
i for one found this funny. im not racist but i still find it amusing. i find all the porno, anime and smut cars hilarious too.

i am of the band of thinking that everyone really spends too much time getting offended than they do actually doing anything useful or just having a good time. political correctness always has to shove its ugly mug into absolutely everything. so to does health and safety but thats not the issue here.

you can insult me an my beliefs all you want, but honestly i have better things....more important things in my life to be getting on with rather than wasting time screaming about how i have been offended and my feelings hurt.

suck it up.

And if your people were treated like trash for hundreds (or thousands) of years,oppressed, enslaved, and had been the target of genocide time and time again through history, you would understand how something simple like a "joke" would be disgusting, and tasteless. There's absolutely nothing funny about it.

"Suck it up."

Suck it up? Oh, it's ok, I'll just forget that my family and people were murdered by the millions by fascists over the course of human history and laugh it off.

Seriously, I get what you're trying to say, but it's just...so wrong.
Neogumbercules 5th July 2007, 05:26 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by completemadness
whats the difference tbh

i think this whole tolerance bullsh*t is going far too far, its OK for a black person to attack a white person (verbally or physically) because their white, but its not ok for a white person to do it to a black person
that is quite frankly bo*****ks, the world is going crazy, hate crimes are bad, but it counts both ways - thats what people are trying to say here, and i agree 100%


The difference is when skin heads call for "white power" they are calling for sovereign rule over "lesser" races. They are calling for a return to the days when blacks and Jews were nothing but "niggers and kikes", nothing more than rodents, and it was OK to spend a Saturday night lynching them up. When black people call for "black power" they are referring to equality and justice. They are calling for cultural empowerment. There's a HUGE difference.
airchie 5th July 2007, 10:38 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by Neogumbercules
The difference is when skin heads call for "white power" they are calling for sovereign rule over "lesser" races. They are calling for a return to the days when blacks and Jews were nothing but "niggers and kikes", nothing more than rodents, and it was OK to spend a Saturday night lynching them up. When black people call for "black power" they are referring to equality and justice. They are calling for cultural empowerment. There's a HUGE difference.
Yeah, but it still enforces the mindset that the people are different when we should be forgetting differences and promoting equality.
airchie 5th July 2007, 10:41 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by Neogumbercules
And if your people were treated like trash for hundreds (or thousands) of years,oppressed, enslaved, and had been the target of genocide time and time again through history, you would understand how something simple like a "joke" would be disgusting, and tasteless. There's absolutely nothing funny about it.

"Suck it up."

Suck it up? Oh, it's ok, I'll just forget that my family and people were murdered by the millions by fascists over the course of human history and laugh it off.

Seriously, I get what you're trying to say, but it's just...so wrong.
I get it, you feel hard done by for yourself and generations of your family.
Understandable tbh.

But that was our ancestors who did it, and most level-headed people these days don't think that way.
Should we still persecute all germans for WW2?

Going on about it will do nothing for you other than remind you of the hurt.
Let it go and move on.
Hate leads to the dark side remember... ;)
airchie 5th July 2007, 10:45 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by completemadness
i think this whole tolerance bullsh*t is going far too far, its OK for a black person to attack a white person (verbally or physically) because their white, but its not ok for a white person to do it to a black person
that is quite frankly bo*****ks, the world is going crazy, hate crimes are bad, but it counts both ways - thats what people are trying to say here, and i agree 100%
I agree.
A perpetrator (sp?) of a crime should be punished for that crime.
Law & order should not consider the colour of your skin, your ethnicity or anything else.
Even if it was a racially motivated crime, that shouldn't be taken into consideration.
If it does, it only re-enforces a racist mindset and makes us think we are all different.
We all bleed red tbh...
Neji 5th July 2007, 13:19 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by Neogumbercules
The difference is when skin heads call for "white power" they are calling for sovereign rule over "lesser" races. They are calling for a return to the days when blacks and Jews were nothing but "niggers and kikes", nothing more than rodents, and it was OK to spend a Saturday night lynching them up. When black people call for "black power" they are referring to equality and justice. They are calling for cultural empowerment. There's a HUGE difference.

qft and education.
Quote:
its OK for a black person to attack a white person (verbally or physically) because their white
Is it? Is it ok with you? 'Cos I don't think it's ok at all.
specofdust 5th July 2007, 13:22 Quote
Of course it's not ok with him Neji, but people saying stuff like that helps them feel ok about hating darkies. Which, when it boils down to it, is what a large part of this "Oh but black people are allowed black power groups" whining is about.
completemadness 5th July 2007, 18:02 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by airchie
Yeah, but it still enforces the mindset that the people are different when we should be forgetting differences and promoting equality.
QFT
Quote:
Originally Posted by specofdust
Of course it's not ok with him Neji, but people saying stuff like that helps them feel OK about hating darkies. Which, when it boils down to it, is what a large part of this "Oh but black people are allowed black power groups" whining is about.
No i don't use it as an excuse to hate black people, i don't even have a problem with black people (well at least not because their black, i do have a problem with gang violence and stuff like that, which is usually seen as a black thing, but still only a small percentage of people)

But i know of times when black people use derogatory terms about white people (i cant remember the exact insults, but I'm sure people have heard them) - and no-one bats an eyelid
However if a white person says something, lets say, ******, its suddenly a hate crime or something like that

that's not right, and as airchie said :-
Quote:
Originally Posted by airchie
A perpetrator (sp?) of a crime should be punished for that crime.
Law & order should not consider the colour of your skin, your ethnicity or anything else.
cderalow 5th July 2007, 19:26 Quote
i'll stay out of the racist debate, but i find it amusing that people claim "free speech" on stuff like this.

They agreed to Microsoft's EULA, which clearly states the limits that they consider free speech, and things like this violate it.

So point of fact, the jackass who thought it would be "funny" to potentially offend hundreds if not thousands of people, deserves to lose any and all ability to use Microsoft's service. Especially since it contains images that are illegal in several countries.

What irks me the most about it... is that some people find doing stuff like this amusing, or humorous. More disturbing is that in this day and age, young people still think like that. It's one thing for my grandma to be racist in that way, but it'd be a whole other if it were my little cousins (who trust me, would get the crap kicked out of them if they even uttered stuff like that).
Nexxo 5th July 2007, 20:28 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by completemadness
But i know of times when black people use derogatory terms about white people (i cant remember the exact insults, but I'm sure people have heard them) - and no-one bats an eyelid
However if a white person says something, lets say, ******, its suddenly a hate crime or something like that

that's not right...
That comes down to the perceived relative status of both groups again:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Neogumbercules
The difference is when skin heads call for "white power" they are calling for sovereign rule over "lesser" races. They are calling for a return to the days when blacks and Jews were nothing but "niggers and kikes", nothing more than rodents, and it was OK to spend a Saturday night lynching them up. When black people call for "black power" they are referring to equality and justice. They are calling for cultural empowerment. There's a HUGE difference.
Black people are still seen as the disadvantaged minority. So they are allowed to criticise (or poke fun at) the perceived priviliged white majority. But the reverse is considered racist.

A similar thing can be observed with women vs. men: many commercials depict men as slightly slow and dumb, with their female counterparts being more attractive, more clever and generally getting the upper hand with a wink and a smile about "those poor men who we will indulge in their delusions of superiority, but you and I both know that women really are smarter". That is considered OK because in real life, to quote James Brown, it is still a men's world. As such, the reverse (men depicted as superior over women) is considered sexist.

That of course does not condone racist behaviour by coloured people towards white people --and yes, it happens as often as white racism towards coloured people. The real fun starts when you are somewhere in between: you get to see both sides at work, and it gives you a rather unique perspective on the situation.

Allow me to introduce my ethnic self: half white, half black carribean. Light skin that tans nicely at the flick of a light switch, curly hair, thick lips. Blue eyes though, which always confuses the hell out of people. My rather Arab looks causes me to be mistaken for Middle Eastern or Jewish as often as I am identified as white-carribean mixed race. I also have Chinese ancestors, but I have no obvious Asian traits (except perhaps my poor tolerance of alcohol).

I have white family. I have black family. Never the twain shall meet at parties, because they are as racist as each other (no, I have no idea how my parents ever hooked up either. Must've be a rebellion against their parents thing). You guessed it: I am too white for my carribean family, and too black for my white family. I see racism at work at both sides.

But if you now think I feel somehow emotionally scarred or confused in my identity, you are mistaken: I never really think about it. As a kid it never struck me as odd that my mother was black and my father white. Your parents look different, don't they? Different colour hair or eyes, different build? Well then. To me, the colour of one's skin was simply an attribute like the colour of one's hair or eyes. It's one of the many flaovours that people come in. It is not until I grew up that I understood the concept of "race" and "racism", but so what? Everybody gets mocked or discriminated against. Everybody. Because they are male, because they are female, because they are young, because they are old, because they are fat, because they are skinny, because they are poor, because they are rich, because they are the ugly nerd, or the pretty airhead, or the dumb jock who is only good at sports or the cripple in the wheelchair, or gay, or straight, or wear glasses or have red hair, even because their skin is pink or brown...

I am a male nerd, came from the poor side of the tracks, hair curly, sexual orientation straight, coloured skin, blue eyes --the opportunity for discrimination is plentiful-- but so it is with everybody else. Life's too short to obsess about it, you know? We all have to deal with prejudice and preconceptions all the time. It starts when you are born ("It's a boy/girl!") and never stops. They will even haunt your euligy at your funeral. We all experience the unfairness of it, and yet we are still dumb enough to propagate our own. Such are people. At least we all have that in common... I prefer to quote that wise man who traveled the world and sailed the seven seas, and therefore must have some life experience to draw upon: Popeye. "I am what I am". As long as you can live with that, what does it matter what others think about you? Don't take it so personally; they're bound to be wrong anyway. As you are bound to be wrong about them. Just be who you are and get on with your life.
Neogumbercules 6th July 2007, 00:46 Quote
Well put, Nexxo. I didn't mean to imply that I was Jewish, although there might be a little Jewish blood in me. I'm actually part Scottish, part Portuguese. Apparently my paternal great grandmother was half Jewish. Back in her day that part of her heritage was kept a secret in order to protect her from discrimination. If you looked at me you'd think I looked like a typical white-boy, although I never burn I just get tanned. I apologize if my strong language was offensive, but I was trying to strongly illustrate the real differences between blatant racism and what the words "black power" mean to the black community.
airchie 6th July 2007, 10:46 Quote
I think Nexxo's post has killed this thread now.
Not that its a bad pots, quite the opposite.
He's hit the nail right on the head and I don't think anyone can really say anything against it.

I think reacting to racist comments just fuels the fire.
Same as anything, ignore it and it usually goes away. :)
Sparrowhawk 6th July 2007, 17:23 Quote
:(
Sad to see this kind of thing still exists.
The other side of the car, partially censored.
DXR_13KE 6th July 2007, 22:33 Quote
that made me laugh loudly for the shear stupidity of the phrase, i now agree with the deletion of this car, it is now to much directly racist for my taste.
LucusLoC 7th July 2007, 11:58 Quote
I think the real issue at heart here is not racism, but freedom. the basic concept that speech can be regulated bothers me. but at the same time regulations on the communication of ideas needs to exist. i don't want a bunch of naked people popping up on billboards just because there is no regulation for that kind of thing. swinging back the other way again, people have a right to express their opinion no matter how stupid or morally questionable it is. and the community (such as the Microsoft community) has a right to ban people they don't want to associate with (which is its own form of intolerance). however the legal framework for this gets sticky, because for every law you enact to "protect" someone (legitimate or otherwise) you are actually limiting *everyones* right to express their ideas. with this in mind i propose a reform: public companies and institutions will be held, by law, to what is considered to be "good taste." this will regulate their external image, such as advertising in public channels (free radio, tv, billboards, things of this nature). they will still be free to advertise as they wish through private channels (paid radio, cable tv, the internet). this area will be regulated by the peoples voice. don't like something you see? complain to the host/provider/web admin. do not complain to the courts, its out of their jurisdiction. privet individuals will also be censored by the people, not the courts. furthermore it is your right to associate with whom you please. white guy wants to join the black panthers? forget it, they don't want you, thats their right. white business owner doesn't like blacks? he owns the business, its his right to hire who he wants. it is you right, then, to inform the community that he is a racist b****rd. it is not your right to get a court to hand you the job or otherwise mandate that he give you money. if he chose to sue you for slander, *then* it would be up to the courts to decide if it were true or not. if he lost then you would have the added weight in the community that the court would also claim he is a racist b****rd (plus we woul make him pay your legal fees and time). if the court decided that you were not hired simply because you were not qualified, or that someone else was more qualified and that he is actually not racist he is just doing what is in the best interest for his company. . . well now you may be guilty of slander. i guess what i'm trying to say is let the community support you. the law will provide basic human rights to everyone. those are the right to live as you please (as long as it doesn't hurt anyone else), say what you want, and the other thing provided in your respective constitutions. it will not protect you from name calling. you have a choice, you have to take responsibility for how you let words affect you. words are powerful, but your words are just as powerful as everyone else's. we are all equal there. if you say that someones word scarred you, it is only because you let them scar you. like i said i don't think pursuing legal action for what basically amounts to "creative" use of vocabulary and imagery is a good idea, even if it is in the name of "protecting" someone. after all "those willing to trade liberty for security are destine to lose both"

p.s. if this little rant is not coherent its because its really, really late. in my current sleep deprived state it looks good to me. my apologies. . .
Nexxo 7th July 2007, 13:00 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by LucusLoC
i guess what i'm trying to say is let the community support you. the law will provide basic human rights to everyone. those are the right to live as you please (as long as it doesn't hurt anyone else), say what you want, and the other thing provided in your respective constitutions. it will not protect you from name calling. you have a choice, you have to take responsibility for how you let words affect you. words are powerful, but your words are just as powerful as everyone else's. we are all equal there. if you say that someones word scarred you, it is only because you let them scar you. like i said i don't think pursuing legal action for what basically amounts to "creative" use of vocabulary and imagery is a good idea, even if it is in the name of "protecting" someone. after all "those willing to trade liberty for security are destine to lose both"

Sound ideas, and I totally agree, but keep in mind that the community which is supposed to support you can also ostracise you. People can be gullible and not everyone has a strong sense of self or a way with words. Some people are simply more vulnerable and a civilised society protects its weak.
completemadness 7th July 2007, 18:56 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nexxo
Sound ideas, and I totally agree, but keep in mind that the community which is supposed to support you can also ostracise you. People can be gullible and not everyone has a strong sense of self or a way with words. Some people are simply more vulnerable and a civilised society protects its weak.
well said

also, sometimes the community can be swept away in the flow, they may be completely wrong, but its the new "thing" so they follow
Its a nice idea in theory, but in practise, human nature just gets in the way
K.I.T.T. 8th July 2007, 09:56 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by bjrcboy
...basically if you werent white with blonde hair and blue eyes

As a side note and something that's always been interesting to me; Hitler was neither blonde haired nor blue eyed so how on earth could he go around pedalling the Aryan race being superior when he didn't conform to its image because surely despite him being the Fuhrer that would make the people of Germany at the time better than him....

Personally i think everyone in general is just too sensitive about things like this, if you don't like it then don't look at it no-ones forcing you too. i to be honest had a quick chuckle about it when i saw the car (Not that I'm pro-Nazi/racist/discriminatory....i guess i gotta cover my back before the P.C. Police come and hit me with their ban hammer)
specofdust 8th July 2007, 10:11 Quote
Well you finding it funny and then claiming not to be racist or neo-nazi does beg the question: whats funny about that?
K.I.T.T. 8th July 2007, 12:50 Quote
what was funny is that this is what a game that has such a cool concept behind it would end up getting used for something like this, that this was the best use people could find for it....i am most decidedly not a neo-nazi, nor a racist and my chuckle was definately not a "haha i hate black people" sort of chuckle, i resent even the thought of that implication.
specofdust 8th July 2007, 13:22 Quote
Yes, obviously the fact that people have taken the option to be able to customise their in-game cars and decided to wave the neo-nazi ****wit banner around is hilarious.

And you can't rightly resent people thinking. Unless you want to start punishing people for thoughtcrime?
completemadness 8th July 2007, 17:37 Quote
well after seeing the other side of the car, this is so clearly racist that there is no arguing that can really be done

And therefore the car breaks MS's EULA and should be removed, end of story
friskies 8th July 2007, 22:55 Quote
It`s just stupid. This is a video game, children play it, and children shouldn`t be exposed to that kind of crap.
airchie 8th July 2007, 23:21 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by friskies
children shouldn`t be exposed to that kind of crap.
Should they be taught history in school?
Isn't this also 'exposing them to that kind of crap'?
Nexxo 9th July 2007, 01:01 Quote
Different context, and different value judgements.
Bungle 9th July 2007, 11:58 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by K.I.T.T.

Personally i think everyone in general is just too sensitive about things like this, if you don't like it then don't look at it no-ones forcing you too. i to be honest had a quick chuckle about it when i saw the car (Not that I'm pro-Nazi/racist/discriminatory....i guess i gotta cover my back before the P.C. Police come and hit me with their ban hammer)
But where do you draw the line. If you say this is ok, so you allow this also..
http://www.usatoday.com/news/world/2006-08-24-hitlerrestaurant_x.htm
MILLIONS of people died http://users.erols.com/mwhite28/warstat1.htm#Second to stop the Nazi war machine, do you think out of respect for their sacrific we should allow this kind of vile crap? Remember, it's what this symbolizes is the problem here.
chiper136 9th July 2007, 14:04 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by mikeuk2004
Nazi stickers are too far but "White Power"?? I bet it be fine and not racist if it said "Black Power".

...yea but black people didn't ship white people over seas to become slaves...
SPQQKY 9th July 2007, 15:47 Quote
What happened to freedom of speech? If people want to be idiots, we have to tolerate it if we want to live in a democratic society.

My friend got into a nasty fight a few years back as he was attacked by two black guys intending on robbing him as he left a club. Now my buddy beat the crap out of both of them, one got it pretty bad and ended up in the hospital and my friend got arrested even though he was deffending himself. It ended up in the papers as a hate crime, my friend was the bad guy somehow and they called him, and I quote "nazi" and "evil incarnate". After the smoke cleared we got quite a laugh because my friends best bud is black. He even had some business cards made up as a joke with his name and those terms on it. Anyone else would have seen those cards would have thought it totally racist, but we found it quite amusing because we knew better.
My point is we can all see what we want to see in something, no matter what it may be.

I have a carlos mencia mentality, if you can't laugh at yourself, who can you laugh at. Some people are to wound up with the whole issue, which only fuels the fire. Who would have ever thought the most popular golfer in the world would be black (tiger woods) and the most popular rapper would be white (M&M).

We simply all need to embrace the idea that we are all different and not just black people being different from white, I mean even the differences between white folks and other white folks, etc., etc.. If we all looked alike, listened to the same music, ate the same food and wore the same clothes, this would be one mighty boring planet.

Now the guy that made that car is not totally worthless, he can always serve as a bad example.


Politically correct
Quote:
...yea but black people didn't ship white people over seas to become slaves...

I don't recall shipping any black people overseas to become my slave.......let me check my organizer.....nope, not there....what's my point? Although we shouldn't forget the past, we need not dwell on it and we need to look forward. No one alive today owns a slave and no one alive today has ever been a slave.
cderalow 9th July 2007, 17:23 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by SPQQKY
What happened to freedom of speech? If people want to be idiots, we have to tolerate it if we want to live in a democratic society.
/snip
Who would have ever thought the most popular golfer in the world would be black (tiger woods) and the most popular rapper would be white (M&M).
/snip
I don't recall shipping any black people overseas to become my slave.......let me check my organizer.....nope, not there....what's my point? Although we shouldn't forget the past, we need not dwell on it and we need to look forward. No one alive today owns a slave and no one alive today has ever been a slave.

freedom of speech is limited to venue. just like in a bar, the proprietor has the right to refuse to serve you, places like online communities have the right to put a stifle on what you can and cannot do as a member of their community. As such, places like this forum, and other online or virtual communities aren't democracies, they're dictatorships. granted, fortunately you have a right to choose not to be a member if you so decide.

I thought I'd clarify... M&M is a chocolate with a hard candy shell. Eminem, is a white (crappy & controversial) rapper.

While slavery in most civilized countries is frowned upon, there are still places in the world where slavery is still practiced, as such, there are people alive (maybe even some on this forum depending on where they are from), who have, or whose parents have had slaves.

I do however agree with you, that something that happened long ago in our past isn't something that should effect our everyday lives, but it should still be remembered as a moral atrocity, just as the Holocaust should be.
Nexxo 9th July 2007, 17:24 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by SPQQKY
What happened to freedom of speech? If people want to be idiots, we have to tolerate it if we want to live in a democratic society.
Not if they become hurtful idiots inciting to hate crimes. With freedom comes responsibility.
Quote:
Originally Posted by SPQQKY
My friend got into a nasty fight a few years back as he was attacked by two black guys intending on robbing him as he left a club. Now my buddy beat the crap out of both of them, one got it pretty bad and ended up in the hospital and my friend got arrested even though he was deffending himself. It ended up in the papers as a hate crime, my friend was the bad guy somehow and they called him, and I quote "nazi" and "evil incarnate".
I am sure that if the black dudes had managed to mug him, those same papers world have talked about how black gangsta rapper culture is creating black hoodlums or something. Tabloids will be tabloids. Now what was that whole "with freedom of speech comes responsibility" again?
Quote:
Originally Posted by SPQQKY
I don't recall shipping any black people overseas to become my slave.......let me check my organizer.....nope, not there....what's my point? Although we shouldn't forget the past, we need not dwell on it and we need to look forward. No one alive today owns a slave and no one alive today has ever been a slave.
Think again. Research shown that income potential is strongly associated with skin colour. Someone definitely wants things to be back to the good ol' cotton-pickin' days of Dixie (or the Third Reich). It is the fascists/racists that are being nostalgic.
SPQQKY 9th July 2007, 18:37 Quote
Quote:
I am sure that if the black dudes had managed to mug him, those same papers world have talked about how black gangsta rapper culture is creating black hoodlums or something. Tabloids will be tabloids. Now what was that whole "with freedom of speech comes responsibility" again?
Which was my point entirely, the papers made a mess out of it, turning it in a direction that was totally incorrect. Again, the fuel for the fire. The real racist here wasn't my friend or the muggers, the racist was the one who wrote the article and using his reach to the community to incite more hate.
Quote:
I thought I'd clarify... M&M is a chocolate with a hard candy shell. Eminem, is a white (crappy & controversial) rapper
It was easier to write M&M, I'm sure everyone knows what I meant. My point was, ask an average guy to name a rapper and Eminem will quickly come to mind, ask him about a famous golfer and Tiger Woods will come to mind. While I think Eminem is a total joke, just the thought of a white rapper a handful of years back would have been thought obsurd, same as a black guy winning golf tournaments 50 or 60 years ago when they weren't even allowed on a golf course except to caddy. I think my point was that no matter where we were in the past, let's look at where we are and where we might be in the future. Yeah, history shows us just how foolish we have been, I mean some really terrible attrocities. And although there are still some bad things going on, as a whole people are still growing and changing for the better.
Quote:
I don't recall shipping any black people overseas to become my slave.......let me check my organizer.....nope, not there....what's my point? Although we shouldn't forget the past, we need not dwell on it and we need to look forward. No one alive today owns a slave and no one alive today has ever been a slave.
I look at my own post and realize it seems sarcastic and gruff and I apologize. I am looking at my countries past and not outside the box, again I apologize. I was only trying to make the point like I stated above, what has happened in the past sucks, but don't dwell on it and cause it to hinder our progress, let's all move forward together.
Quote:
Not if they become hurtful idiots inciting to hate crimes. With freedom comes responsibility
I realize I was totally unclear on that matter, I remember being told this once by a teacher many years ago and it stuck with me "we have the right to swing our arms around and dance in a circle like a fool if we want and no one can do anything about it, but if it interferes with others (those swinging arms strike someone or the dancing knocks someone down) then we can do something about it." I did say the guy who made the car "isn't totally worthless, he can always serve as a BAD EXAMPLE". To say he has no right to display his car because it incites hate because of the nazi symbols, well, sadly he still has the right for that part, whether I or you agree with what it stands for. The other side of the car is where the line had to be drawn here.
Quote:
Think again. Research shown that income potential is strongly associated with skin colour. Someone definitely wants things to be back to the good ol' cotton-pickin' days of Dixie (or the Third Reich). It is the fascists/racists that are being nostalgic.
While I do agree that hiring of jobs may ultimately depend on a racist in a company and that sucks (this is totally random really depending on the mentallity of that person, most probably even unknown to the company he works for). But it can also go both ways, this isn't isolated to the black community. If a manager at a store needs to hire help and he picks someone simply because he is the same race, then that is totally lame. But to say society on a whole wants to opress a certain group is obsurd at best. I know this may sound harsh, but unfortunately they sometimes bring it upon themselves because they have that thought process to start with. Unfortunately this attitude may have been tought to them by their parents or peers, as I have said, those holding onto the past.
Now if someone walked into my office with an attitude that I owe him a job because of his race or he walks in looking like a gangsta, I sure wouldn't hire him, no matter what race he is. If he comes to me dressed for an honest interview with a positive attitude, then I will hire him.
The_Beast 10th July 2007, 00:01 Quote
I found it a little funny
Nexxo 10th July 2007, 01:07 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by SPQQKY
I did say the guy who made the car "isn't totally worthless, he can always serve as a BAD EXAMPLE". To say he has no right to display his car because it incites hate because of the nazi symbols, well, sadly he still has the right for that part, whether I or you agree with what it stands for. The other side of the car is where the line had to be drawn here.
If the car is intended to incite hate crimes, then his rights in the matter are forfeit. Remember that it is not just about the car. There is a context behind it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by SPQQKY
While I do agree that hiring of jobs may ultimately depend on a racist in a company and that sucks (this is totally random really depending on the mentallity of that person, most probably even unknown to the company he works for). But it can also go both ways, this isn't isolated to the black community. If a manager at a store needs to hire help and he picks someone simply because he is the same race, then that is totally lame. But to say society on a whole wants to opress a certain group is obsurd at best.
The research I refer to demonstrates a Western society-wide trend, not the particular practices of one individual bigot in this company or that:
Quote:
Light-skinned immigrants in the United States make more money on average than those with darker complexions, and the chief reason appears to be discrimination, a researcher says.

Joni Hersch, a law and economics professor at Vanderbilt University, looked at a government survey of 2,084 legal immigrants to the United States from around the world and found that those with the lightest skin earned an average of 8 percent to 15 percent more than similar immigrants with much darker skin.

"On average, being one shade lighter has about the same effect as having an additional year of education," Hersch said.

The study also found that taller immigrants earn more than shorter ones, with an extra inch of height associated with a 1 percent increase in income.
Society as a whole does demonstrably disadvantage certain groups --not just ethnic minorities, but also women, those of short stature and the poor to name a few. Why? Because it still buys into, and propagates the self-serving attribution biases that:
Quote:
Originally Posted by SPQQKY
I know this may sound harsh, but unfortunately they sometimes bring it upon themselves because they have that thought process to start with. Unfortunately this attitude may have been tought to them by their parents or peers, as I have said, those holding onto the past.
What do you expect of a bunch of savages/immigrants/women/chavs/gypsies/cripples/single mothers (delete as appropriate): there's nothing like blaming the victim for society's bigotry. But the relationship is reciprocal at best. Martin Luther King may have had a dream about the future, but as I said before, the racists are being nostalgic.
completemadness 10th July 2007, 03:27 Quote
if it didn't have "white power" and "send the ****** back" on the sides, i think it would be a lot harder to say it should be banned

but clearly with those sayings on it, its only intent is to upset a lot of people
SPQQKY 10th July 2007, 19:49 Quote
Quote:
If the car is intended to incite hate crimes, then his rights in the matter are forfeit. Remember that it is not just about the car. There is a context behind it.
You seem to be, whether intentional or not, missing all of what I wrote. I said clearly that "using the nazi symbols cannot be banned", and I did make it clear that what he wrote on the other side of the car is where the line has to be drawn. Although we may not like what they represent, those symbols unfortunately cannot be cencored, at least in the USA. I, in no way, think what this fellow did was funny, cool or appropriate.
Quote:
What do you expect of a bunch of savages/immigrants/women/chavs/gypsies/cripples/single mothers (delete as appropriate): there's nothing like blaming the victim for society's bigotry. But the relationship is reciprocal at best. Martin Luther King may have had a dream about the future, but as I said before, the racists are being nostalgic.
I was more directing this at individual attitudes, and not towards the masses. I have, growing up in Chicago, seen this with my own eyes and heard this with my own ears. There are people (and a lot of them) who believe that selling drugs or robbing people is better than getting a real job. They believe it is below them to make an honest living. I've had bricks thrown through my work truck just because I had a job. I have met people that believe they cannot even get a job, so why try.....why go to school, why work, it's not going to amount to anything. I have met woman that would rather have a few more kids so they can get government support rather that earn an honest living, then leave 2, 3 and 4 year old children home alone so they can go out and have fun. It's also the "victims" (some of them) that are being nostalgic, giving up on the future because of what has happened in the past. This I blame on the society in which they live, the parents and peers teaching such terrible morals.
So while I don't condone bigotry or racism, I also don't condone the individuals that help to perpetuate such activity.

I am terrible at politics and it would seem I can't make my thoughts clear either, so I will say no more on this subject.
Nexxo 10th July 2007, 20:58 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by SPQQKY
You seem to be, whether intentional or not, missing all of what I wrote. I said clearly that "using the nazi symbols cannot be banned", and I did make it clear that what he wrote on the other side of the car is where the line has to be drawn. Although we may not like what they represent, those symbols unfortunately cannot be cencored, at least in the USA. I, in no way, think what this fellow did was funny, cool or appropriate.
Not saying that you are. We are arguing different points. You are saying (correctly) that by law, simply displaying a Nazi swastika cannot be censored. I am saying that it is the context that matters. Swastika in history books or cliche WWII movies = OK, swastika on a sign advocating hate against ethnic minorities = not OK (but then the whole sign is the problem, not the swastika in itself).
Quote:
Originally Posted by SPQQKY
I was more directing this at individual attitudes, and not towards the masses. I have, growing up in Chicago, seen this with my own eyes and heard this with my own ears. There are people (and a lot of them) who believe that selling drugs or robbing people is better than getting a real job. They believe it is below them to make an honest living. I've had bricks thrown through my work truck just because I had a job. I have met people that believe they cannot even get a job, so why try.....why go to school, why work, it's not going to amount to anything. I have met woman that would rather have a few more kids so they can get government support rather that earn an honest living, then leave 2, 3 and 4 year old children home alone so they can go out and have fun. It's also the "victims" (some of them) that are being nostalgic, giving up on the future because of what has happened in the past. This I blame on the society in which they live, the parents and peers teaching such terrible morals.
So while I don't condone bigotry or racism, I also don't condone the individuals that help to perpetuate such activity.

I am terrible at politics and it would seem I can't make my thoughts clear either, so I will say no more on this subject.
Thing is, you will find people like that in every flavour. White, black, rich, poor, male, female, able, disabled etc. Being an asshole is an equal opportunities career. It is not racism to call such people assholes (I do so all the time --I'm equal opportunities too :p ). Racism is when you associate their being an asshole with their being black, or white, or male/female, or rich/poor, or whatever. The people you are talking about are assholes because, well, they behave like assholes, not because they belong to some particular minority group. You can't lump them together under any other category but "Assholes".

Some assholes will make an association between their being an asshole and their ethnicity for us, using it as a justification ("What do you expect from an underpriviliged, victimised un-empowered person of colour/a woman/poor etc."), or as accusation of racism when you point out that they are being assholes ("You are picking on me as an underpriviliged, victimised un-empowered person of colour/a woman/poor etc."). They play the race/gender/socio-economic status card. That is racism too; they only level this accusation at you because you are perceived as being part of the priviliged majority... Of course, at the same time they tar all people of their minority with the same brush who ironically usually would not want to be associated with them.
supermonkey 10th July 2007, 21:37 Quote
Did anyboy see that movie Crash? It came out a couple years ago, and I think it sums up racism pretty well.

Basically, we're all racist, every last one of us. Black, white, mexican, woman, pakistani, rich, poor; there are no exceptions. But it is possible to look past the race and just be decent to each other.

Brilliant movie.

Edit: Forgot this part:
Quote:
Originally Posted by chiper136
...yea but black people didn't ship white people over seas to become slaves...
As I stated above: There are no exceptions. Every group has been disadvantaged at some point, and slavery is not unique to Black folks.

-monkey
rjkoneill 24th June 2008, 11:03 Quote
im all against stuff like this
i cant be bothered with it
there is too much hate going on all over the place and xbox live is just a massive place to say and do what you want because, realistically - what gets done about it?


ive had people on my teams called things that are pretty disgraceful

reason why
because anyone can get away with it and nothing will be done to stop it

xbox live it accessable
the kids all buy a premium console and shout crap down their headset

buy a ps3 maybe - ive noticed the only people talking on my ps3 are the ones who went out and made the additional purchase of a blutooth headset - and they use it to benefit their game

realistically forza team should have predicted this


IF YOU DONT WANT TO BE OFFENDED DONT USE XBOX LIVE
Daniel114 24th June 2008, 11:08 Quote
Customary 'holy thread Revival, batman' message
L2wis 24th June 2008, 11:08 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by Daniel114
Customary 'holy thread Revival, batman' message

dam u just beat me to it
Jamie 24th June 2008, 16:31 Quote
There should be a way to send a recording of a users voice comms to microsoft and report it for abuse, get enough valid reports and the user get's banned or something.
DougEdey 24th June 2008, 19:39 Quote
Yeah, that's good, but I've done a fair few reports of people playing music through headsets, having noise feedback, etc...
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