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Microsoft's Windows Blue plans hinted at in job ad

Microsoft's Windows Blue plans hinted at in job ad

Microsoft's next-generation Windows Blue operating system will not be discarding the user interface previously known as Metro, judging by the company's job advert.

Microsoft has snuck out a few details regarding Windows Blue, its next-generation operating system that will eventually replace the recently-launched Windows 8 and its divisive tile-based user interface - but if you were hoping for a return to a classic UI with Start Menu, you're going to be sorely disappointed.

Officially, Windows Blue doesn't exist; cognisant of the Osborne Effect - an industry term referring to the sad fate of the Osborne Executive, a next-generation microcomputer so hyped by its creator Adam Osborne that sales of the existing Osborne 1 model tanked and the company folded before the product could be released - Microsoft is sensibly keeping away from any talk of next-generation operating systems so close to the release of its current-generation Windows 8 product.

That the company is working on a replacement for Windows 8, of course, is no secret: Microsoft relies on a regular update cycle for its products to keep the cash rolling in, while critical reception of Windows 8 and its touch-centric UI is thought to be largely to blame for the departure of Windows chief Steven Sinofsky from the company back in November. Windows Blue, it is claimed, is the name under which the development effort is being run.

The first official details of Windows Blue's development direction come courtesy of a job posting, upped by an incautious Microsoft staffer on the 15th of February and rapidly removed from sight - but not before ZDNet grabbed a copy of the text. In the advert, Microsoft specifically mentions the work-in-progress codename: 'We’re looking for an excellent, experienced SDET [Software Development Engineer in Test] to join the Core Experience team in Windows Sustained Engineering (WinSE). The Core Experience features are the centrepiece of the new Windows UI, representing most of what customers touch and see in the OS, including: the start screen; application lifecycle; windowing; and personalisation. Windows Blue promises to build and improve upon these aspects of the OS, enhancing ease of use and the overall user experience on devices and PCs worldwide.'

While merely a brief hint of a mention, one thing is clear from the job posting: while Windows Blue will represent an evolution of the current user interface, based on what was previously known as Metro UI and originally developed for the Windows Phone platform, it will not represent a scrapping of it and a return to the traditional way of doing things. Given Microsoft's clear focus on touch-enabled devices - to the point where the company is directly competing with its own customers through the Surface RT and Surface Pro tablet families - this is, perhaps, unsurprising, but is still likely to disappoint those who had believed that Sinofsky's departure may bring the company to its senses.

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tigertop1 18th February 2013, 11:24 Quote
I reckon Microsoft's pigheadedness in failing to address serious customer concerns regarding the way Windows 8 is presented is going to cost them dearly. I am involved in a major university's school of computing as well as dealing with users of all ages elsewhere. Windows 8 is the source of much discussion and on balance many people don't see it as an advantage or step forward over Windows7

I run it on a home PC and it is more trouble than it is worth. Why do we have to learn yet another way of working having already mastered Android? Couple this with the tightening of MS licence systems re Ofice 2013 and Windows Media Centre and you can see why everyday users are getting fed up with Microsoft. I spend a lot of time helping new PC buyers find a way to get windows 7 rather than 8 on their new purchases. Sorry Microsoft you have boobed big time on this one
Corky42 18th February 2013, 11:30 Quote
Quote:
but is still likely to disappoint those who had believed that Sinofsky's departure may bring the company to its senses.

Will anything bring them to there senses ? they don't seem to be listening to customer feedback about wanting to have the choice of full screen start menu or the classic version.

M$ is like that annoying kid who puts there fingers in there ears and shouts
"I'm not listening, la, la,la"
faxiij 18th February 2013, 12:03 Quote
Was afraid this was gonna happen :(

Probably gonna stick to W7 for a long time....given that, hopefully, W7 will have a decent long-term-support in updates.

So far, I really loved the whole development of Windows - sure, some were less good than others (Vista..lol), but at least it remained a some-what user-friendly OS without much limitation, with endless options if you wanted them. I always loved that.

While I appreciate certain parts of W8 and will use it probably on dedicated devices, as a regular workstation I don't see it working well. It is too limited - too mainstreamed. Up til W7, Windows improved as many tasks became so much more convenient, fast and easy to do. With W8, I feel many options have been taken away and I am afraid it is going to develop into a similar piece of **** such as iOS is - a retarded, extremely limited and narrow-minded OS for people too lazy or stupid to bother getting to know something properly.

In other words - I would've loved to see the introduction of W8 (and Blue, and so on) as a sibling to W7, not a replacement. I think they both have separate target groups, which should hopefully become evident within the years to come. But given MS' history, I fear that won't happen. Maybe that'll mean what many have dreamt of for a decade or more: big migrations towards Linux. Regardless, I think the next ten years are no doubt going to be very exciting.

/end mondaymorningrant
Krazeh 18th February 2013, 12:42 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gareth Halfacree
No return to a classic UI planned, sadly.

Good. It's easy enough to get the 'old' Start Menu back if you want to in Windows 8, there's no need for MS to do it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by tigertop1
I reckon Microsoft's pigheadedness in failing to address serious customer concerns regarding the way Windows 8 is presented is going to cost them dearly. I am involved in a major university's school of computing as well as dealing with users of all ages elsewhere. Windows 8 is the source of much discussion and on balance many people don't see it as an advantage or step forward over Windows 7

That's because in many ways it isn't. On a current desktop there probably is little reason to upgrade to Windows 8, especially if you're happy with 7. But like it or not computing and the way we interact with machines is changing. Windows 8 is the start of the path of an OS designed for the future of computing.
Quote:
Originally Posted by tigertop1
I run it on a home PC and it is more trouble than it is worth. Why do we have to learn yet another way of working having already mastered Android?

Really? It's not that difficult to learn the differences between Windows 7 and 8. How exactly is 8 'more trouble than it is worth'.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Corky42
Will anything bring them to there senses ? they don't seem to be listening to customer feedback about wanting to have the choice of full screen start menu or the classic version.

M$ is like that annoying kid who puts there fingers in there ears and shouts
"I'm not listening, la, la,la"

Again, why should MS do it when a) it's not part of their vision for Windows moving forward and b) there's other options already available that do it?
Quote:
Originally Posted by faxiij
While I appreciate certain parts of W8 and will use it probably on dedicated devices, as a regular workstation I don't see it working well. It is too limited - too mainstreamed. Up til W7, Windows improved as many tasks became so much more convenient, fast and easy to do. With W8, I feel many options have been taken away and I am afraid it is going to develop into a similar piece of **** such as iOS is - a retarded, extremely limited and narrow-minded OS for people too lazy or stupid to bother getting to know something properly.

I'm yet to come across anything I could do in Windows 7 that I can't do in Windows 8. All the options are still there and it's no more limited than any previous version of Windows.
derviansoul 18th February 2013, 12:52 Quote
I dont feel that the problem with windows 8 is the actual UI, but the fact that it is fragmented inside the actual OS.
I doesn't make sense to replace a UI to use metro and then everywhere else is just the whole UI that we know since windows vista, but with different visuals.

To be honest i dont understand how did it take them two years to rewrite a start-menu and copy elements of metro UI accross, some might say that they updated the kernel to new processors and stuff. But i still think that for having thousands of developers working on a OS for about three years to end up with something like windows 8 is just bad organisation and no clear target.

I personally think that the UI is not bad, but it needs to get integrated accross the whole OS. Because at this moment is neither good for touch neither for keyboard/mouse combos.
jrs77 18th February 2013, 13:07 Quote
What's so hard with having the classic UI available for those who want it? I don't use Aero in Win7 either, but the classic UI.

So aslong as they offer the option to turn off all this Aero/Metro-stuff and have the classic UI I'm good with it.
derviansoul 18th February 2013, 13:18 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by jrs77
What's so hard with having the classic UI available for those who want it? I don't use Aero in Win7 either, but the classic UI.

So aslong as they offer the option to turn off all this Aero/Metro-stuff and have the classic UI I'm good with it.

Maintenance, and keeping applications working between two UI's. I dont think devs would be happy with that solution either.
Snips 18th February 2013, 13:21 Quote
That page screen that fills your whole screen and shows all the live tiles and keeps you informed of things all the time, that's your start button!

Is that such a difficult thing to understand?
tigertop1 18th February 2013, 13:45 Quote
For all those who think that W8 is a good step forward I have to say I believe you are in the minority. W8 is a crude marketing attempt by Microsoft to push us to their alternative to Android , Apple and the others. . Since most of the others are better than W8 and well established now that will be a market failure in the medium to long term. I run W7, W8, Linux and Android systems and W8 is a far behind 4th in choice
Krazeh 18th February 2013, 13:47 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by tigertop1
I run W7, W8, Linux and Android systems and W8 is a far behind 4th in choice

Why?
Snips 18th February 2013, 13:53 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by Krazeh
Quote:
Originally Posted by tigertop1
I run W7, W8, Linux and Android systems and W8 is a far behind 4th in choice

Why?

Yes Why?
Icy EyeG 18th February 2013, 13:56 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by jrs77
What's so hard with having the classic UI available for those who want it? I don't use Aero in Win7 either, but the classic UI.

So aslong as they offer the option to turn off all this Aero/Metro-stuff and have the classic UI I'm good with it.

I honestly think that the way things are going, I wouldn't be surprised if Microsoft sold Windows 9 as Metro only. Microsoft will probably still offer "desktop mode" on 500+€ licenses though, and scrap it all together in Windows 10.
fdbh96 18th February 2013, 15:06 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by derviansoul
To be honest i dont understand how did it take them two years to rewrite a start-menu and copy elements of metro UI accross, some might say that they updated the kernel to new processors and stuff. But i still think that for having thousands of developers working on a OS for about three years to end up with something like windows 8 is just bad organisation and no clear target.

I honestly think that may be the daftest paragraph Ive ever read. Do you think they hire some of the best programmers just to let them twiddle their thumbs for 3 years. They've had to make the whole metro thing, windows now starts up way faster than win7. Theres also the windows store, and don't forget the much better task manager.

There isn't really any point not to upgrade really. Its a faster version of win7 with refined/new features, and if you miss the start menu, just use something to add it. By sticking with win7, you get stuck in the past where mobile/desktop were separate.
SlowMotionSuicide 18th February 2013, 15:31 Quote
Well they are really welcome to shrink their market share in the future as much as they like for all I care. For a general consumer there's plenty of other options already, excluding gaming, and I've got high expectations how Valve's linux endeavours will eventually turn out.

Also, a lot of people sat perfectly happily on WinXP for more than eight years. Don't see a reason why Win7 wouldn't last as long.
derviansoul 18th February 2013, 15:33 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by fdbh96
I honestly think that may be the daftest paragraph Ive ever read. Do you think they hire some of the best programmers just to let them twiddle their thumbs for 3 years. They've had to make the whole metro thing, windows now starts up way faster than win7. Theres also the windows store, and don't forget the much better task manager.

There isn't really any point not to upgrade really. Its a faster version of win7 with refined/new features, and if you miss the start menu, just use something to add it. By sticking with win7, you get stuck in the past where mobile/desktop were separate.

It seems you don't know much about development:

1st- The barebones of Metro UI already existed in the windows phone used was just ported accross.
2nd - the new taskbar and explorer werent created from ground up, they were optimised, and they integrated a new toolbar (the ribbon bar thing).
2nd- first version of iPhone OS 1.0 was created with only about 200 devs for its first version, kde4.0 and gnome 3, have less than this amount of devs, and yet these manage to create UIs that are not fragmented.

3rd- Windows uses over 2000 developers and hundreds of project managers, and yet you say that its daft what i said, that putting a ribbon on a few applications, and creating a new start button, a task manager is enough and a few changes to the kernel?
It was 3years of development, with one of the biggest developer teams in the world:S, and the result was a OS with two UI's, one of which isnt much different from windows 7, i would say that most of it, is a direct port from windows 7?

PS::( I forgot the windows store... thats explains why windows 8 is a really bad implementation, because the time spent on developing the windows store application.
Xir 18th February 2013, 16:40 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gareth Halfacree
No return to a classic UI planned, sadly.
There's really no need to "scrap" Metro/modern...
a simple SP1 with a function to turn it off would suffice. :D

Later, when we're all touch-based-cloudy we can turn it on again.
and the office-monkeys doing their typing can leave it off.

Why is that so hard?
Quote:
Maintenance, and keeping applications working between two UI's. I dont think devs would be happy with that solution either.

True, but backward compatibility WILL be an issue for professional users, so for the next decade* or so, a pure "app" based design won't be received well.

*heck, the companies around here are just now switching to Win7 and office 2010. From XP that is, not from Vista. ;)
faugusztin 18th February 2013, 16:43 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by derviansoul
first version of iPhone OS 1.0 was created with only about 200 devs for its first version, kde4.0 and gnome 4 have less than this ammount of devs. and yet these manage to create UIs that are not fragmented.

Sure, so you say KDE4 is not a huge plasma mess (it is) and so is Gnome 3 (both Unity and standard Gnome), unless you run it in Gnome classic mode. I would say KDE4 is even bigger mess than Windows 8, by a long shot, and Gnome 3/Unity is not so different from Windows 8, maybe bit more confusing than 8 :
cH1WHCEJ9Q8
derviansoul 18th February 2013, 16:56 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by Xir
There's really no need to "scrap" Metro/modern...
a simple SP1 with a function to turn it off would suffice. :D

Later, when we're all touch-based-cloudy we can turn it on again.
and the office-monkeys doing their typing can leave it off.

Why is that so hard?



True, but backward compatibility WILL be an issue for professional users, so for the next decade* or so, a pure "app" based design won't be received well.

*heck, the companies around here are just now switching to Win7 and office 2010. From XP that is, not from Vista. ;)

I get what you r saying, but the examples you mention are done with terminals, which these days are mostly remotly installed. (with exception to devs and small offices).
MetroUI works well with just a mouse/keyboard, what doesn't work is the left/right sidebars, and a few other bits, which are left overs from the touch approach, but live within the desktop (which was left from windows 7, and example of bad integration).
The start button isn't a issue since terminal users usually dont even use the start button much, since most their work is done with a few applications, so the lack of a start button is the issue.

To me the issue is just a UI fragmentation inside the actual OS, where only the metroUI supported apps, are touch friendly, the rest (explorer,desktop, control panel, etc.) are not, and are hard to use on the go, something that doesn't happen with android/iOS.

That's what baffles me about MS, they could created just a windows touch version for the tablets, in a simliar fashion to android/ios, which with the inclusion of a touch office version and xbox live could have been enough to convince a lot of people, which would hint at a merge in the nextfew years, instead they half done the whole lot and screwed hardware partners for nothing:S.

If was a shareholder in MS i would asking some serious questions to what MS is thinking, its clear that they don't know where they are going or coming.

Just as an example (Ubuntu touch looks better integrated than windows8 for phone tablets and PC's), and while Ubuntu only has to be concerned with kernel patches, and work over gnome4, and mobile interface, they have 1/20 or even less of the resources of MS:S.

I really hope that steam brings serious applications to linux (adobe, autodesk, better office support), windows stinks and will continue to stink for a few years.
derviansoul 18th February 2013, 17:02 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by faugusztin
Sure, so you say KDE4 is not a huge plasma mess (it is) and so is Gnome 3 (both Unity and standard Gnome), unless you run it in Gnome classic mode. I would say both KDE4 is even bigger mess than Windows 8, by a long shot, and Gnome 3/Unity is not so different from Windows 8, maybe even more confusing than 8 :

I like the actual KDE4. i just found a shame that the support applications like; network management, sound management, dolphin and a few others took too long to fix. I think plasma has its uses, especially with a dual screen. I also like Unity (I haven't tried gnome3 yet, i haven't had the time), but i never been a fan of gnome classic.
Obviously there are issues with all these i mentioned. but when you compare resources, timeframes, its seems that the dev team MS, specially, project managers, have something to answer for.
faugusztin 18th February 2013, 18:17 Quote
KDE5, Gnome4. Man, are you living in future ? We are at KDE4.10 and Gnome 3.

Ok, so you like unity, but dislike Windows 8 start screen ? That doesn't make sense at all. How is this different than the W8 start screen ? On W8 start screen you have tiles, in Unity you get the list of recent apps and files. You can search by typing - in both Windows 8 and Unity, or you either right click in W8 and then select All apps in Windows or click on one of the bottom categories in Unity. If you wish to search elsewhere, you select a different search category in both.

The only real difference i see between W8 Start screen and unity are :
- in Unity you see the sidebar all the time, but that can be compared to the Start screen itself with the tiles.
- in Unity, you can see the system tray, in Windows 8 not.
- in Unity you can see the application behind through transparency, in Windows 8 not.

Sorry, but i am confused, how can one person hate one and love another UI, when two are nearly identical.
derviansoul 18th February 2013, 18:47 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by faugusztin
KDE5, Gnome4. Man, are you living in future ? We are at KDE4.10 and Gnome 3.

Ok, so you like unity, but dislike Windows 8 start screen ? That doesn't make sense at all. How is this different than the W8 start screen ? On W8 start screen you have tiles, in Unity you get the list of recent apps and files. You can search by typing - in both Windows 8 and Unity, or you either right click in W8 and then select All apps in Windows or click on one of the bottom categories in Unity. If you wish to search elsewhere, you select a different search category in both.

The only real difference i see between W8 Start screen and unity are :
- in Unity you see the sidebar all the time, but that can be compared to the Start screen itself with the tiles.
- in Unity, you can see the system tray, in Windows 8 not.
- in Unity you can see the application behind through transparency, in Windows 8 not.

Sorry, but i am confused, how can one person hate one and love another UI, when two are nearly identical.

I never said i dont like the start button thats just ur assumption, what i said is that they done one UI (metroUI) for the front and kept the old one in the back, which is lame specially if u have a tablet or a touch screen.
And the theme goes accross the whole OS, which is my main issue, if u read my first rant, fragmentation accross the UI, where there is two UI's metroUI and the old windows7 ui and buttons.

That is my main issue, which doesn't happen with unity and kde, since both kept their ideals across the interface, and applications were re-written to focus on these aspects.
Unity to me as a unique advantage over Windows and that is almost the sole reason to why i like unity, the unified search function to applications, i like my keyboard, and that function really speeds things up. I also like the application launchers.

Also i dont recall saying that used kde 5, i used up Kde4.4 with arch (but i gave up because it was buggy dolphin crashed all the time and network interface was buggy had to remove kde wireless network thing and do it through /etc which was annoying on the laptop, the gnome one didn't like kde:S), but interface wise i was happy with it), i did mention gnome4 but that was a typo which i fixed it. Now I have dual boot windows 7 and Ubuntu with unity.

My main point with this, and it was what I have being going on about is that MS wanted to release windows8, the whole interface should have been re-designed, not just the start button and a few selective apps to show up on the commercials, i understand that the learning curve would have been bigger, and maybe unacceptable to some users, but it would be better than just half-bake two interfaces together and expect people to get on with it.

Look at apple I used to like apple UI, now they are putting skeuomorphism everywhere, sometimes works, a mostly doesn’t, however they attempt to unify the UI experience. which gives the user clues to how to use it.

Look at android UI before Matias Duarte gone to android, it was a stupid mess and provided an experience similar to windows 8, things just didn’t made sense, the experience was hacked and not unified.
With gingerbread a whole new process occurred and everything was unified for best and for the worst, but at least users knew what to expect because the UI was uniform.

Windows 7 does exactly this, the UI is uniform and well layout, windows8 doesn’t because it uses two different interfaces that have little relation with each other.

MS could have done two things with windows 8 integrate it slowly or integrate completely, half bake something just shows that they don’t know what the user wants and they are just trying to make noise.
And considering that MS has the highest ammount of devs i think it is a complete failure.
Gradius 18th February 2013, 18:49 Quote
Not impressed at all. Not at all! M$ is brain dead, long dead. :/
Corky42 18th February 2013, 18:54 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by Krazeh
Again, why should MS do it when a) it's not part of their vision for Windows moving forward and b) there's other options already available that do it?

True it seem M$ vision for moving forward is to force a full screen start menu on desktop users, they dump something that is there when you need it for something that takes over the hole screen.

And the reason these options to bring back the start menu are there is because the vast majority of users don't want to use a phone centric full screen start menu OS on there desktop.

M$ may well have a vision for moving forward, but ignoring your customers is not the way to realise that vision, History is littered with company's and people who had a vision but ignored the general consensus.
mdshann 18th February 2013, 19:02 Quote
http://blogs.msdn.com/b/b8/archive/2011/08/17/introducing-the-team.aspx

You are way oversimplifying what amount of work goes into a windows release.
Nexxo 18th February 2013, 19:14 Quote
I wonder how many people who complain about W8 have actually used it on a device that is designed for it (touch screen and keyboard). I have used it (or rather, the RT version) on a Surface RT and on a Lenovo Yoga 11 and on both it makes perfect sense. Metro for touch screen/tablet mode, and desktop for keyboard and mouse/trackpad mode. Metro for on-the-go casual acttivities and media consumption, and Desktop for serious productivity and system hackage. It works for me.

Yeah, the two modes feel a bit disjointed (although not quite as disjointed as Google Chrome OS), but Windows is a huge OS to give a make-over. The next version will be more polished.

Listening to customers? Listening to this forum in 2010 had iPad pegged as an abject failure. On the other hand WebOS, one of the finest mobile OS's ever crafted, died a quiet death. Perhaps that is why Apple does not exactly have a track record of listening to customers either. We are now on the 6th version of iOS, and we still cannot toggle Airplane mode from the home screen. We still have not got a USB port on the iPad, or an SD card slot on the iPhone.

EDIT: Point made on Silicon Republic:
Quote:
I also think what Microsoft has accomplished with Windows 8 on the RT and Pro devices is a signpost to the future of personal computing in that it has stolen a march on Apple and Google.

You see, people will want tablet computing experiences but the option of being able to launch a full desktop to do specific tasks, manage data, etc, is going to be very important.
mdshann 18th February 2013, 19:22 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nexxo
I wonder how many people who complain about W8 have actually used it on a device that is designed for it (touch screen and keyboard). I have used it (or rather, the RT version) on a Surface RT and on a Lenovo Yoga 11 and on both it makes perfect sense. Metro for touch screen/tablet mode, and desktop for keyboard and mouse/trackpad mode. Metro for on-the-go casual acttivities and media consumption, and Desktop for serious productivity and system hackage. It works for me.

Yeah, the two modes feel a bit disjointed (although not quite as disjointed as Google Chrome OS), but Windows is a huge OS to give a make-over. The next version will be more polished.

Listening to customers? Listening to this forum in 2010 had iPad pegged as an abject failure. On the other hand WebOS, one of the finest mobile OS's ever crafted, died a quiet death. Perhaps that is why Apple does not exactly have a track record of listening to customers either. We are now on the 6th version of iOS, and we still cannot toggle Airplane mode from the home screen. We still have not got a USB port on the iPad, or an SD card slot on the iPhone.

Amen! And if your like me and you use the keyboard as much as possible, then the only thing different is when I press the windows key and start typing program names the start menu takes up the whole screen instead of just a corner.
faugusztin 18th February 2013, 19:24 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by derviansoul
Also i dont recall saying that used kde 5, i used up Kde4.4 with arch

I guess it is another typo then.
Quote:
Originally Posted by derviansoul
I like the actual KDE5.
fdbh96 18th February 2013, 19:35 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by derviansoul
It seems you don't know much about development:

1st- The barebones of Metro UI already existed in the windows phone used was just ported accross.
2nd - the new taskbar and explorer werent created from ground up, they were optimised, and they integrated a new toolbar (the ribbon bar thing).
2nd- first version of iPhone OS 1.0 was created with only about 200 devs for its first version, kde4.0 and gnome 3, have less than this amount of devs, and yet these manage to create UIs that are not fragmented.

3rd- Windows uses over 2000 developers and hundreds of project managers, and yet you say that its daft what i said, that putting a ribbon on a few applications, and creating a new start button, a task manager is enough and a few changes to the kernel?
It was 3years of development, with one of the biggest developer teams in the world:S, and the result was a OS with two UI's, one of which isnt much different from windows 7, i would say that most of it, is a direct port from windows 7?

PS::( I forgot the windows store... thats explains why windows 8 is a really bad implementation, because the time spent on developing the windows store application.

I agree with the first two (theres 2 2nd points btw)n, they weren't original, but it still takes time and expertise to make it happen.

However, you really cant compare iphone os 1.0 to windows 8. 1.0 was basically a standard feature phone OS with a web browser. No cross compatibility, app app store (bar cydia) and had basically nothing to prove. Win8 on the other hand would be criticised whatever it did. If they stuck to the tried and tested OS strategy, people would turn to apple for simple cross compatibility. Also 1 OS means only one learning curve not multiple.
TheDarkSide 18th February 2013, 19:54 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by Snips
Quote:
Originally Posted by Krazeh
Quote:
Originally Posted by tigertop1
I run W7, W8, Linux and Android systems and W8 is a far behind 4th in choice

Why?

Yes Why?

Exactly. Everybody is saying the same thing, W8 is limited/unproductive/crap compared to W7. But then you ask for specifics and you get no answer, except the same old "they forced metro on us".
I just don't get it, it takes me a fraction of a second to get to desktop and i practically never have to see metro if i don't want to. It's a joke to complain about that when you consider the time you gained over W7 when booting.
Seriously i'd welcome someone to give me genuine reasons as to why they don't like W8, i want to know in what way was it a step backwards compared to W7.
In my usage scenarios at least, i don't miss W7 one bit.
velo 18th February 2013, 20:11 Quote
Getting rid of the old Start Menu - fantastic decision by MS. Perhaps this'll put me in the minority, but I did all I could in past releases of Windows to avoid using the Start Menu - whether it was tons of desktop shortcuts, or menus on the taskbar, or (finally) Launchy.

In terms of my own "work"flow, having the Start Screen is a huge advantage. I don't have a touchscreen, but whether I'm clicking through with a mouse or using the keyboard to narrow the tile selection, it's a far more pleasant experience than previous versions offered.

One little gripe - right clicking a tile and then having to mouse down to the bottom of the screen to unpin/open file location/etc is a bit of a faff, particularly given that almost everywhere else in Windows, right-click gives you a contextual menu.

And what's more, Microsoft have given me a pretty great reason to consider a Windows tablet/phone. There's no accounting for taste, but I'm seriously impressed by Windows 8, Start Screen and all, and having the same interface on desktop/phone/tablet makes a lot of sense. It'll take some decent hardware (and reasonable price) to pry me away from Android, but it will definitely feature heavily in my next buying decision.
faxiij 18th February 2013, 20:37 Quote
W8 is not crap, it's just not suitable as a W7 replacement, is all.

W8 was made for touch-use and to unite the user-experience between smartphones and PC's and basically making the line between those a blurry one. That can be a good thing, if you mostly just play around with your PC, hanging around on Youtube 10 hours a day and stuff like that. Yes, you can add some start-menu functionality but that is not the point. The start-menu replacement screen is neat, yes - but again, this was all made for fun and giggles and most of all, for touch-use!!

As far as I'm concerned, I prefer using my mouse a lot. It's just the way it works best for me and how I have a workflow that is best for me and how I work. And while you can circumvent that with shortcuts and the like, this doesn't work for everyone. I want to be able to be effective with my mouse as well and with metro in w8 that is just not possible, compared to w7.

And yes, this is a big issue! I have two PC's running with W8 and especially on my some-what old notebook I love the much smoother performance. The boot time is neat too, albeit irrelevant. The task manager is nice as well, but hell, how often do you need that? I access my task manager once a month, at most.

Having to resort to third-party software of similar hacks is just no acceptable alternative. It would be a step in the right direction if MS supplied an option with a Service-Pack to get the old user interface back, however that doesn't change the fact w8 was developed for touch-use from ground up.
One could actually compare the progression from w7 to w8 with the progression of Windows Mobile to Windows Phone. Except that with the smartphones, it was actually a good idea, for a replacement.

Maybe, in the future, when/if touch-screen monitors are a common thing, the new metro would be a blast. In fact, I can't wait to have a similar geeky experience as in Minority Report, using the UI just by my hands, moving stuff, typing on a projected keyboard (or even just a wireless one). But untill then, regular use is by mouse & keyboard and for that purpose, w8 just doesn't work as well as w7 does.

TLDR: Big YES to w8 - as an ALTERNATIVE to w7, with laptops / netbooks / ultrabooks / tablets or tablet/netbook combos. But as a complete replacement, for regular work-use? BIG NO-NO.
derviansoul 18th February 2013, 20:43 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by faugusztin
I guess it is another typo then.

Yes it was i kde4 in all the other posts....:S....
faxiij 18th February 2013, 20:45 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by velo
And what's more, Microsoft have given me a pretty great reason to consider a Windows tablet/phone. There's no accounting for taste, but I'm seriously impressed by Windows 8, Start Screen and all, and having the same interface on desktop/phone/tablet makes a lot of sense. It'll take some decent hardware (and reasonable price) to pry me away from Android, but it will definitely feature heavily in my next buying decision.

If there wasn't the issue of the Windows Marketplace still feeling like a one-legged dog. At least once I week I curse badly because I discover a neat app that as usual, is only available for Android or iOS. As soon as my contract is over, I'll be switching back to an Android phone. However I will add, that as a work-phone, where apps are often not even allowed, I'd love a Windows Phone. I think this is where WP7/8 really shines. Really a shame that contracts with decent internet data are still very expensive, otherwise I might just use two phones. That'd be sweet.
dolphie 18th February 2013, 20:58 Quote
Windows Blue.... Screen of Death Edition *chortle*
impar 18th February 2013, 22:40 Quote
Greetings!
Quote:
Originally Posted by Corky42
Will anything bring them to there senses ?
Microsoft doesnt need to "find their sense".
Only needs to offer no alternative to Metro\StartScreen\Charms in the next couple of "Windows" versions for it to be seen as a success in some years.
They have enough weight to make it work and since there is no clear alternative in universities and enterprises to Windows\Office they will succeed on imposing Metro\StartScreen\Charms.
There will be an entire generation that will not know anything else.
Scary, isnt it?
faugusztin 18th February 2013, 23:29 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by impar
Scary, isnt it?

No.

We learned DOS, we learned Norton Commander, we learned Windows 3.1, we learned Windows 95, we learned Windows XP, we learned Windows Vista/7, we learned various iterations of Android UI, iOS, Symbian, various versions of XBOX or Playstation UI, some of us learned KDE/Gnome/XFCE/E17, ...

You guys act like removal of the start menu is the end of the world as we know it and it will bring the Armageddon.
Nexxo 18th February 2013, 23:48 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by impar
Greetings!

Microsoft doesnt need to "find their sense".
Only needs to offer no alternative to Metro\StartScreen\Charms in the next couple of "Windows" versions for it to be seen as a success in some years.
They have enough weight to make it work and since there is no clear alternative in universities and enterprises to Windows\Office they will succeed on imposing Metro\StartScreen\Charms.
There will be an entire generation that will not know anything else.
Scary, isnt it?

If you cannot write an AUTOEXEC.BAT or CONFIG.SYS file, you have not yet earned that opinion, grasshopper.
mdshann 19th February 2013, 00:05 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by faugusztin
No.

We learned DOS, we learned Norton Commander, we learned Windows 3.1, we learned Windows 95, we learned Windows XP, we learned Windows Vista/7, we learned various iterations of Android UI, iOS, Symbian, various versions of XBOX or Playstation UI, some of us learned KDE/Gnome/XFCE/E17, ...

You guys act like removal of the start menu is the end of the world as we know it and it will bring the Armageddon.

We've also managed to learn how to control the radio, lights, and climate controls in every new car despite the buttons and knobs turning to touchscreens and voice.

Every time I hear someone complain about being forced to switch to a newer windows version it's always the same... "But XP is so good! It's the best!", "I heard Windows Vista/7/8 was terrible!"

And I always ask well have you tried it?

They almost always, 95+% of the time it seems, say "No." :(

At this point XP is nearly 13 years old, get over it, move on, get rid of the horse and buggy and get a car already!!
faugusztin 19th February 2013, 00:06 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by mdshann
At this point XP is nearly 13 years old, get over it, move on, get rid of the horse and buggy and get a car already!!

I hope you are not writing that to me. I left XP sometime in 2006 for KDE & Linux because i was sick of Luna theme
Tangster 19th February 2013, 00:24 Quote
So long as I get a desktop, I'm happy. I rarely use the Metro menu, it's hardly the massive inconvenience(after adding icons for shutdown and sleep) everyone thinks.
Corky42 19th February 2013, 00:27 Quote
Trying to draw a comparison to the controls in a car is so far of the mark you hit the moon :)
Face it 8 is turning out to be a worse flop than Vista.
mdshann 19th February 2013, 00:44 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by faugusztin
I hope you are not writing that to me. I left XP sometime in 2006 for KDE & Linux because i was sick of Luna theme

Context clues seem to say that I am agreeing with you... at least on the leaving XP part. ;)

We have the same crap going on in the Linux camp as well though. Gnome 3, Unity, KDE4 are all pretty big departures from what we were used to, but you know what? If I'm going to complain about people complaining about having to leave XP for V/7/8, then I should probably start using one of the new DE's too. To be honest with you, it took me a while to get used to Unity (What I'm currently using), and I was never a big KDE fan to begin with. I still can't understand how to use gnome 3 though!

It's pretty awesome getting the choice though, we can even keep the gnome 2.x look if we want to use MATE. It must suck to be a Luddite and barely even understand how to turn the thing on, and then "they" go and change everything on you!
impar 19th February 2013, 01:07 Quote
Greetings!
Quote:
Originally Posted by faugusztin
We learned DOS, we learned Norton Commander, we learned Windows 3.1, we learned Windows 95, we learned Windows XP, we learned Windows Vista/7, ...
All of those were improvements on the predecessor (except for Norton Commander, no idea what that was).
Quote:
Originally Posted by faugusztin
You guys act like removal of the start menu is the end of the world as we know it and it will bring the Armageddon.
The lack of choice of what Start to use, the fullscreened Metro apps in a 24" monitor, the half-baked combination of two UIs, the touch-first UI, the stupid popup Charms, the lack of a global search on Start, the inability to choose on what program to open a searched file, ...
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nexxo
If you cannot write an AUTOEXEC.BAT or CONFIG.SYS file, you have not yet earned that opinion, grasshopper.
Kind of glad I havent touched on those since the last century.
mdshann 19th February 2013, 01:13 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by Corky42
Trying to draw a comparison to the controls in a car is so far of the mark you hit the moon :)
Face it 8 is turning out to be a worse flop than Vista.

You must be one of the 95%'ers I was referring to earlier. Windows 8 has not flopped, it's an amazing product with some serious innovation under the hood.

Does a MAC have a Keyboard mouse and screen? Oh look, so does my PC! Does my Jeep have a steering wheel, windshield and pedals? Oh look, that Fiat over there does too! But wait! The heat on the Jeep is a slider and on the Fiat it's a knob? I'll never understand this thing, I give up! :'(

And, oh LOOK! A Start Menu:

http://www.classicstart8.com/
Corky42 19th February 2013, 02:57 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by mdshann
Windows 8 has not flopped, it's an amazing product with some serious innovation under the hood.

And, oh LOOK! A Start Menu:

http://www.classicstart8.com/

You only have to look around the web for uptake figures on 8 e.g
http://www.netmarketshare.com/

You must be kidding right ? how is it innovating ? its windows 7 redesigned to make it more tablet friendly with a few additions and tweaks, complete with a full screen start menu and a market place so M$ can make some money from selling software.

What makes me laugh is when people say you can use a third party program to bring back the start menu, its just like we used to use third party software to run programs in a sandbox but now M$ have built that into 8.

Maybe eventually they will realise a smaller start menu is a feature that some of there customers want and incorporate it into a future OS.
mdshann 19th February 2013, 04:50 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by Corky42

You must be kidding right ? how is it innovating ?

like we used to use third party software to run programs in a sandbox but now M$ have built that into 8.

You answered yourself there.

Another example is that now the kernel goes to hibernate instead of shutting down to allow for faster boot times. I know it's a controversial feature, but the app store or whatever they are calling it is one innovation over previous versions of windows. The new interface that everyone who doesn't own a touch device hates could be counted as innovation. USB 3.0 native support. Microsoft Live web account integration, which includes syncing between multiple computers on the same account. Integrated flash player within IE10 to help with flash vulnerabilities. Family safety is now built in instead of a separate Live download. UEFI Safe boot to help prevent pre-boot execution of unsigned code like rootkits. Integrated Windows Defender based on Security Essentials for decent virus protection built into the OS. Windows to Go to take you programs and files with you. Hyper-V virtualization in Windows 8 Pro. Reset and Refresh re-installation available without recovery media.
leexgx 19th February 2013, 05:08 Quote
at most all of the windows 8 systems have had issues of some sort

1. main pet hate is system response time at random times (the same one that seems to be an Vista bug/Feature "how to tank pc performance by drowning the HDD in I/O", example windows update or when you go to update or install an RT app the HDD goes nuts for about 5 mins, it did this when i was trying to install skype i ended up opening 10 setup boxs 5 mins later), i have an SSD so i should be OK but hitting the HDD with mass i/o is bad idea (that was Fixed in the real vista release called windows 7 but broken again in win8), with win7 i get none of this

2. programs get glitchy after an bit, you have to restart the pc to resume normal usage (outlook dono why just hangs when you open it reboot is only fix) my windows 7 system has been on for 20 days every thing still works fine

3. RT is made for touch screens systems that have touch screens cost stupid money that normal foke do not buy and so limits its usefulness to the point its annoying (Stupidly small hot coners with No hints that they are there is So good for your avg user who does not want to use the computer just wants to Use it, soon as they get onto the RT screen and its all Green background with no hints or tips on how to get back to the Main RT tiles, its like ????? and then they call me to install to fix it and in turn i install startisback or get them to take the pc back and get an windows7 pc

going from windows 95 to windows 7 apart from removing the name start (that confused the hell out of a lot of users and hid the shutdown option in vista, why do you think they put ShutDown in the start menu in windows 7) is not much different between them

all they should of done with windows 8 is done the under the hud stuff and added an market place like Apple have done with there OSX you do not have to use it but its there for you to Use,
where as windows 8 its like dropping iPad IOS onto an desktop OS that just does not really work (more so if you have 2 or more screens)
i not an Fan of OSX as such (guess its just the silly mouse, i allways plug in an MS mouse when i am at an apple pc, propper clicks/right lick and the opticle sensor is in the right place in the middle where it should be) but at least they have not go down the root of forcing an compleat UI change that most users will not like at (on OSX if you do not like it you just do not use it, it does not get in the way like in windows 8 it does)
leexgx 19th February 2013, 05:15 Quote
note the HD nuts part is Very random does not always do it, but Slow pc response time did tend to happen at least once on each system i used (the trusted installer was hogging all HDD time from what i could see) hdd response times was getting to 1-2 seconds and the resulting system slow down insured

other issue was stuff that is hidden, requiring more clicks so you randomly found the thing you was looking for (yes you can just type the item name, but before it was 2-3 clicks away)
mdshann 19th February 2013, 06:04 Quote
So your answer is to tell people to return their windows 8 device and get a windows 7 computer? I'd like to let you know that you are part of the problem, not the solution. Windows 8 is not going to just go away, but commercial availability for Windows 7 is. A responsible technician would teach the customer how to use the new software, not invent some way around it. I've found with just a few minutes of help most people are easily able to understand the changes made in Windows 8. Those that couldn't? They didn't know how to use 7 either.
SexyHyde 19th February 2013, 07:19 Quote
So Win7 was doing over 3 times better than Win8 is now.

Was Win8 quicker? Yes a bit, but I have an SSD so its not all that.
Was I quicker in Win8? No...... not by a long shot. Almost everything I did took longer and even when I got used to where stuff was it usually took more clicks and mouse swipes than Win7.
I used CP, RP and RTM so gave it a good crack of the whip - but for some people it just isn't worth it. Is it now a £100 upgrade? oh wait....... it's still £45. That's right, if people don't want it at £45 they aren't going to be rushing to pay £100+.
I think Win7 will be my last Windows. I'm using it till Steam Ubuntu gets a bit more mature. If I didn't have a lack of spare time, I'd be on it full time now, just using Win7 to get through my backlog of unplayed Steam games.
Corky42 19th February 2013, 09:18 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by mdshann
You answered yourself there.

Another example is that now the kernel goes to hibernate instead of shutting down to allow for faster boot times. I know it's a controversial feature, but the app store or whatever they are calling it is one innovation over previous versions of windows. The new interface that everyone who doesn't own a touch device hates could be counted as innovation. USB 3.0 native support. Microsoft Live web account integration, which includes syncing between multiple computers on the same account. Integrated flash player within IE10 to help with flash vulnerabilities. Family safety is now built in instead of a separate Live download. UEFI Safe boot to help prevent pre-boot execution of unsigned code like rootkits. Integrated Windows Defender based on Security Essentials for decent virus protection built into the OS. Windows to Go to take you programs and files with you. Hyper-V virtualization in Windows 8 Pro. Reset and Refresh re-installation available without recovery media.

That isn't innovation, The kernel using hibernate instead of shutting down has been around since Win95 (it just forced on the user more now)
The app store has been around for over 10 years, Linspire with Click'N'Run.

The "new interface" has been around since 1970, it just comes with more bells and whistles now.
Native support for USB3 means jack since you can get drivers for Win7.

Microsoft Live web account integration is just a renamed Microsoft Passport account, along with all the security holes.
Family safety is another rename, UEFI Safe boot (originally a Intel idea) can be used to lock out installing Linux.

Packaging software like Defender with your OS isn't innovating, its just waking up to the fact that customers have been installing this kind of software for years.

Windows to go is just a fancy name for live USB's
Hyper-V virtualization has been around since Windows Server 2008.
Reset and Refresh is simply M$ putting the recovery media on you HDD/SSD

So where is the innovation ? to me it looks more like renames and rehashes of others inventions. :(

EDIT: I think this shows how innovative M$ are
http://cdn.darktips.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/10/Windows-8-infographic.jpg
Xir 19th February 2013, 09:49 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nexxo
I wonder how many people who complain about W8 have actually used it on a device that is designed for it (touch screen and keyboard).
That's exactly the point, but the other way around:D
Most people getting Win8 NOW don't have a touch screen and keyboard, and they're annoyed at pretending (with their mouse) to be "touching"

Hence the simple question for an update to a direct-to-desktop version.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Corky42
That isn't innovation, The kernel using hibernate instead of shutting down has been around since Win95 (it just forced on the user more now)
Save energy, turn off your multiple extension lead, see how it hibernates then :D
faugusztin 19th February 2013, 10:03 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by SexyHyde
So Win7 was doing over 3 times better than Win8 is now.

Sure. I was also a completely different economic climate, it was a completely different market (look ma, no iPad).

I love how people on one side argue that MS lost the touch because they removed the Start menu and replaced it with Start screen, teaching the people how to use their touch friendly (but not touch exclusive) UI. And many in the same post start arguing that they should learn from iPad and Android tablets, which is exactly the reason why this interface change is forced on us. PC sales are dropping, tablet sales are increasing - yet people cry that their start menu transformed to touch friendly start screen. I am positive that MS expected the market situation to be a bit different when they planned the W8 launch for October launch - they expected more devices from the manufacturers, at a lower price; they expected lower power consumption from Intel CPU, but that is the risk when you plan few years ahead, you simply cannot predict how will your partners do.

@Corky42: sorry, i don't get it. Tablets are taking over the big part of laptop sales, part of PC sales and part of sales to people who wouldn't normally have a computer. Yet you people complain MS have a touch friendly UI (same as iOS and Android), have a single sign on mechanism for the whole device (same as iOS as Android), have centralized store for applications (same as iOS and Android)... Aren't these features people now expect and want from their devices ? By that logic we could say that Linux and iOS are stupid copycats because Windows 7 had TRIM support first, Linux introduced TRIM later and OS X still has it only for Apple branded SSD. But that would make no sense - neither does that infographic.

And native USB3 support means a lot. I guess you didn't try to install the OS from a USB3 stick connected to USB3 port.

@Xir: You know what is funny ? Most non-gaming Metro apps i have on my computer(s) i use with keyboard. RSS reader ? Press left or right to move in list. Mail application ? Press up down, or type to search...
faxiij 19th February 2013, 11:12 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by dolphie
Windows Blue.... Screen of Death Edition *chortle*

Such a fitting analogy... :D :D :D
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nexxo

If you cannot write an AUTOEXEC.BAT or CONFIG.SYS file, you have not yet earned that opinion, grasshopper.
If you actually believe that and mean that, then you don't deserve access to the internet. It really is a shame that the internet turns so many people into dip$hits. Which reminds me of another huge annoyance btw, that whole thing of MS trying to integrate your web-account with your computer-account? It's like they're taking the collective amount of privacy and security, putting in a bowl and pi$$ing on it.

I guess, in the end it all comes down to the same thing: MS not trying to accommodate their customer's actual wishes/needs, but doing what they feel could be nice and "cool" with a more or less complete disregard of reality and the situation many people/companies are in. But hey, maybe that means MS is finally fading, allowing the rise of new IT powerhouses, possibly.
faugusztin 19th February 2013, 11:37 Quote
@faxiij: So it didn't bother you when Google joined your Gmail, Google+, Google Analytics, Google <insert other acquired product name> with your Android account ? It didn't bother you when Apple did it with the Apple/me/iCloud accounts ? But if MS does try to use centralized accounts (even with the option to use local accounts) as the last one on the market, then MS instantly turns into a bad, evil company who wants to steal your data.

MS is the last one to have centralized accounts, but some of you guys scream it's too soon. MS is the last one to deliver a touch friendly interface, but you guys scream it's too soon. Before Windows 8 all we could hear was "is MS sleeping, where is their tablet (touch friendly) platform?". and "i would buy a tablet, but it needs Windows/Intel CPU/...".

You guys are never satisfied, even if MS would deliver you your dream OS, you would have a reason to complain. :(
impar 19th February 2013, 12:09 Quote
Greetings!
Quote:
Originally Posted by faugusztin
You guys are never satisfied, even if MS would deliver you your dream OS, you would have a reason to complain.
"They gave me my dream OS too late! They wasted time with W8!" :D
Nexxo 19th February 2013, 12:16 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by faxiij
If you actually believe that and mean that, then you don't deserve access to the internet.
impar complains about how MS just changes things and people will accept it and not remember the good ol' times. I remember the good ol' times (like, well before there was a Web), and they weren't that good. It's why things change.
Quote:
Originally Posted by faxiij
I guess, in the end it all comes down to the same thing: MS not trying to accommodate their customer's actual wishes/needs, but doing what they feel could be nice and "cool" with a more or less complete disregard of reality and the situation many people/companies are in. But hey, maybe that means MS is finally fading, allowing the rise of new IT powerhouses, possibly.
Actually MS is trying to accommodate their customers' needs. Theirs are just not your needs, because you are a niche customer, not a mainstream one.
leexgx 19th February 2013, 15:04 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by mdshann
So your answer is to tell people to return their windows 8 device and get a windows 7 computer? I'd like to let you know that you are part of the problem, not the solution. Windows 8 is not going to just go away, but commercial availability for Windows 7 is. A responsible technician would teach the customer how to use the new software, not invent some way around it. I've found with just a few minutes of help most people are easily able to understand the changes made in Windows 8. Those that couldn't? They didn't know how to use 7 either.

maybe I say recommend taking it back or I can load on an software that restores standard windows stuff so you can use the pc normally (star menu startisback app)

if they ask me before buying an system I say forget windows 8 to start off with

This is the main point
""I going around to set the pc up not spend an week to show them how to completely learn how to use an pc when I should not have to""
how to say this nicely and not sound bad wording, most users are stupid or do not care about the computer when it comes to using pcs, all they want to do is use it, windows 8 is an road block and unsuitable with out adding 3rd part apps to restore norm use (why its better off getting an win7 pc to start off with) as I have never had to load custom software to fix an missing features that is the core of what windows stands for

most customers I know would be completely lost with win8, even with starisback they some how get stuck on an random rt screen from time to time,most of them seem to have worked out how to get out of it they restart the pc, norm I just tell them to press the start button on the keyboard if that happens as startisback drops back to desktop when you do that

all I can see is windows 7 will be the last os that companies will use (like when most did not upgrade from nt4 or 2000 for very long time)
leexgx 19th February 2013, 15:21 Quote
vista was only bad due to poor driver support and not helped by not managing heavy hdd hammering [that has returned in win8 (system restore trusted installer shadow copy trashing the disk) but do note I used vista for the most part and liked vista but only on my pc as I had raid0 with 3 disks and a ssd after that (that hid an disk trashing)
on customers pcs turning off superfetch fixed most speed problems + adding 2gb of ram to the silly systems that came with 1gb or worse 512mb of ram as well (soon as I seen an vista basic logo on the pc/laptop right there was going to net me £30 for upgrading the ram as I new the system before pressing the power button it had 1gb or less of ram)

win8 have made new computers quite un-usable for most users, with out modification
Corky42 19th February 2013, 16:13 Quote
@faugusztin, No im not complaining about the full screen start menu, im saying when you are trying to use one OS for all devices you should be given the choice on how to use that device.
If they allowed users to disable the FSSM and boot right to the desktop with normal taskbar/start menu it would go a long way.
And if you a user with any sense a quick search on Google shows you how to boot a windows 7 install from USB3.
Nexxo 19th February 2013, 19:13 Quote
But you can! You can disable the lock screen, set up boot so it goes straight to desktop and add a Start Menu plug-in. Presto: the Win7 experience. It's not even hard.
SexyHyde 19th February 2013, 19:22 Quote
Windows 8: the animated evaluation (checkit on YouTube). This is how the average user feels. Microsoft made win8 primarily touch, because that's what everyone is doing. Well in the mobile arena. Have any of you guy's risked sun exposure to see what the general public think? Because they don't like it. Don't worry though, Ballmer only wants to stay at least five more years. Which means he'll either redeem himself or tank the company. I'm not holding my breathe for the previous.
SexyHyde 19th February 2013, 19:29 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nexxo
But you can! You can disable the lock screen, set up boot so it goes straight to desktop and add a Start Menu plug-in. Presto: the Win7 experience. It's not even hard.
For guys like us it's not hard, for your average PC world visitor it's something that they would have to pay someone to fix it. I think businesses would just stick with what they have, actually i know they will.
Nexxo 19th February 2013, 19:29 Quote
The average PC World visitor doesn't care. They're the ones who are delighted with Windows 8.

It's niche users like yourself who are complaining. And you have the least reason to moan because not only have you got the skillz to hack Windows, it is something that you have always done before (if you haven't yet, there's something wrong with you. :p ).
Corky42 19th February 2013, 19:58 Quote
I couldn't disagree with you more if i tired Nexxo :D
You only have to look at how normal users get on with 8 from YouTube clips to see how confused and frustrated normal users are with it.

Granted you can hack 8 to be more like 7, but why should users have to do this ?
How hard would it have been for M$ to let the user choose on the first boot to use the new full screen start menu or the old style taskbar+startmenu.

No instead they decided to remove it totally from the OS :(, you cant force people into a new way of thinking you have to let them take there own time, and give them a choice.

As they say Rome wasn't built in a day but M$ want to mash together a tablet OS with a desktop one and expect users to instantly like it.
Bogomip 19th February 2013, 20:40 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by Corky42
Will anything bring them to there senses ? they don't seem to be listening to customer feedback about wanting to have the choice of full screen start menu or the classic version.

M$ is like that annoying kid who puts there fingers in there ears and shouts
"I'm not listening, la, la,la"

Nah, MS is the company that has the balls to say "**** it guys, this is the way things are going- and people may not like it now but sod them, lets be on the forefront and do it irrespective of if people initially like it".

If you want the old style then go get mods for it :)

I was disappointed when I lost my DOS prompt... im pretty comfortable without it though these days :)

edit: someone who can work out how to put a video on youtube is not the normal computer user ;)
SexyHyde 19th February 2013, 21:31 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nexxo
The average PC World visitor doesn't care. They're the ones who are delighted with Windows 8.

It's niche users like yourself who are complaining. And you have the least reason to moan because not only have you got the skillz to hack Windows, it is something that you have always done before (if you haven't yet, there's something wrong with you. :p ).

No, your wrong. I fix computers for people and do the tech support at work, everyone I've spoken to has been negative about windows8. I've had people that were enthusiastic about win8 only to try it, then ask me what's going on. Windows became the monopoly because they catered for the common man and made it easy. The desktop isn't a tablet and that is what Microsoft failed to realise and work with.
Nexxo 19th February 2013, 22:18 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by Corky42
I couldn't disagree with you more if i tired Nexxo :D
You only have to look at how normal users get on with 8 from YouTube clips to see how confused and frustrated normal users are with it.

...

As they say Rome wasn't built in a day but M$ want to mash together a tablet OS with a desktop one and expect users to instantly like it.

Yet at the same time Staples and John Lewis product reviews for the Surface RT are almost invariably full of praise. Obviously you can mash a tablet and desktop OS together.
Quote:
Originally Posted by SexyHyde
No, your wrong. I fix computers for people and do the tech support at work, everyone I've spoken to has been negative about windows8. I've had people that were enthusiastic about win8 only to try it, then ask me what's going on. Windows became the monopoly because they catered for the common man and made it easy. The desktop isn't a tablet and that is what Microsoft failed to realise and work with.

And these forums and many others are full of people thinking Windows 8 is great. Again, obviously many people (who try it) like it.

Perhaps there is a bit of a halo effect going on. IT reviewers say that Windows 8 is pants, so it must be. OSX is said to be user friendly, so it must be. Google Chrome is a more limited OS than either iOS or Windows RT, but reviewers think it is cool, so it must be. I have tried all of them, in depth, and all have their strengths and weaknesses.

Windows 8 is virtually indistinguishable from Windows 7. Sure, you have a Start Screen instead of a Start Menu, but that's it. You even summon it from the same spot. Everything else is identical. You can still use desktop shortcuts, you still have the same old file explorer and control panel. Charms? You literally never have to use them.

And here's a story of mine: a NHS secretary who spends all her working her days behind a PC once came in and asked where Word was. She couldn't find it --normally she just clicks on the Word documents sent to her. She had to be shown (explanation did not cut it) how to burrow through layers of cascading menus in the Start Menu (yeah, why the IT department just didn't pin Office I'll never know) because she didn't know that Word is in Office is in Programs. On Windows 8 she would have just hit the Windows key and there it would be: Word, in a whopping big tile. Click. Easy.
longweight 19th February 2013, 22:23 Quote
Why do people struggle with the Metro / Desktop? As was said earlier in the thread the metro is basically the start button! What are people not able to do as quickly with W8 as they were with W7?
Grimloon 19th February 2013, 23:18 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by longweight
Why do people struggle with the Metro / Desktop? As was said earlier in the thread the metro is basically the start button! What are people not able to do as quickly with W8 as they were with W7?

The shortcuts work the same, search takes a couple of extra clicks as the results are categorised so that you can't see them unless you pick the appropriate category.

It's definitely more awkward from the perspective of supporting non computer literate users because it's different.

My only issue with the OS changes is the division between Metro (or the interface formerly known as Metro) and the desktop is that certain programs behave differently dependent on where they're triggered from, IE10 being a good example. As an App it runs in a cut down mode and ditches certain plug ins (Flash audio being one) but all of them run from the desktop version. As I support web based applications primarily this is becoming something of an issue for me - I'm used to basing diagnosis on which program is in use, not which program and where it was launched from. If this is the direction Microsoft are heading in then it's likely to cause me more work which is something I'm never going to be happy with!
impar 19th February 2013, 23:31 Quote
Greetings!
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nexxo
And here's a story of mine: a NHS secretary who spends all her working her days behind a PC once came in and asked where Word was. She couldn't find it --normally she just clicks on the Word documents sent to her. She had to be shown (explanation did not cut it) how to burrow through layers of cascading menus in the Start Menu (yeah, why the IT department just didn't pin Office I'll never know) because she didn't know that Word is in Office is in Programs. On Windows 8 she would have just hit the Windows key and there it would be: Word, in a whopping big tile. Click. Easy.
Word was not pinned, Word shortcut was not in the Desktop, she didnt searched for Word.
The same "where is Word" can happen with Start Screen (would she even press Windows key to go there?) once the initial screen is filled.
Nexxo 19th February 2013, 23:51 Quote
Not nearly as likely, as she would be familiar with the Start Screen (you know, it being "forced" on the user). It's the first thing she would see as she boots up in the morning. Scroll right and there's Office. Can't miss it. It's not buried three layers down in cascading menus between lots of other tiny icons and text (and yeah, she did search for if).

My point: in Win8 Word does not need to be pinned; no shortcut needs creating. It's just there, and it's obvious.
impar 20th February 2013, 00:02 Quote
Greetings!
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nexxo
Not nearly as likely, as she would be familiar with the Start Screen (you know, it being "forced" on the user). It's the first thing she would see as she boots up in the morning. Scroll right and there's Office.
So, since 1995 she didnt learned how to use Start Menu and now she would know how to scroll right?! You are an optimist. :D
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nexxo
My point: in Win8 Word does not need to be pinned; no shortcut needs creating. It's just there, and it's obvious.
So tiles are not shortcuts now?
freshsandwiches 20th February 2013, 00:56 Quote
[QUOTE=TheDarkSide]
Quote:
Originally Posted by Snips
Quote:
Originally Posted by Krazeh
Quote:
Originally Posted by tigertop1
I run W7, W8, Linux and Android systems and W8 is a far behind 4th in choice

Why?

Yes Why?

I'll tell you why.

I'm not disputing that windows 8 is an upgrade. Not for a second. Tech is a hobby that I enjoy following and I like to get the latest software.

*It probably does boot up faster than any version before it.
*It probably does have lots of nice new features that make it better than its predecessor.
*You probably can get the start menu back if you wanted. (But should you have to)?

Fair enough.

I'll never know. Why? Well computers are machines that do our bidding by our inputs. Windows 7, and all (including Vista) before her (him) done exactly what we asked of them, for better or worse. Even if they pig awful we wanted to make them work. But windows 8 has stuff popping out all over the place, bad enough, but then they gave them names. Cringe worty titles like "charms bar", and "metro". Sigh.

I salute the brave souls on Windows 8 that can be bothered continuing on that voyage, but for me the ship has sailed.

I'm quick with windows 7, it is intuitive. You know exactly what you are doing with it. With Windows 8 they tried to reinvent the wheel, knowing all the time that the wheel was the best thing going. Hence all the artifacts from old OS's that derviansoul alludes to.

MS should have played to their strengths and delivered the best desktop experience going. Instead they wasted their desktop development time messing around making that tiled stuff. Your right, the start menu was a button. Have you ever stared at the start menu waiting for something to change? Buttons click on and off as required. People do not spend their time staring at tiles, they spend time doing things. Working, gaming, whatever...

I prefer working without distractions. Windows 8 distracts me form being productive. I spent a week with Windows 8, I got less done and I hated every second. I love technology, I embrace it. I also love learning new things, even if they are difficult. But I'm not a fool. A spade is a spade.
SexyHyde 20th February 2013, 01:01 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nexxo
Yet at the same time Staples and John Lewis product reviews for the Surface RT are almost invariably full of praise. Obviously you can mash a tablet and desktop OS together.

Some people are enthusiastic with their purchases, then realise that they don't quite work as they expected later - post review. Show me a follow up review that is as good or better than the original.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nexxo
Windows 8 is virtually indistinguishable from Windows 7. Sure, you have a Start Screen instead of a Start Menu, but that's it. You even summon it from the same spot. Everything else is identical. You can still use desktop shortcuts, you still have the same old file explorer and control panel. Charms? You literally never have to use them.

Whatever drugs your on. I WANT. http://www.thefreedictionary.com/indistinguishable or your understanding of the English language needs improving.
Corky42 20th February 2013, 02:14 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nexxo
Yet at the same time Staples and John Lewis product reviews for the Surface RT are almost invariably full of praise. Obviously you can mash a tablet and desktop OS together.

For real ? you seriously believe a company selling a product is going to slate it, they would say anything if it means they sell more.
Xir 20th February 2013, 08:16 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by faugusztin
@Xir: You know what is funny ? Most non-gaming Metro apps i have on my computer(s) i use with keyboard. RSS reader ? Press left or right to move in list. Mail application ? Press up down, or type to search...
Ah, the duality ;)
Quote:
Originally Posted by faugusztin
Before Windows 8 all we could hear was "is MS sleeping, where is their tablet (touch friendly) platform?". and "i would buy a tablet, but it needs Windows/Intel CPU/...
And I'm sure it'a a better way to work on a tablet...just that I'm in an office full of monkeys with typewriters...well, officemachines. No touchytouchy, no lolcats, no youtube, no web , no huge clickytiles.
Just Word, excel and Powerpoint and backward compatibility please and as little distraction as possible. As little schooling as possible as well, shooling is unproductive and expensive, you know?
The amount of time and money invested training these people on office 2010, argh!
Quote:
Originally Posted by Corky42
If they allowed users to disable the FSSM and boot right to the desktop with normal taskbar/start menu it would go a long way.
This, without additional software.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Corky42
How hard would it have been for M$ to let the user choose on the first boot to use the new full screen start menu or the old style taskbar+startmenu.
Quote:
Originally Posted by SexyHyde
The desktop isn't a tablet and that is what Microsoft failed to realise and work with.
They neglect the "just working" base.

But that's a bit down to us techies and you reviewers as well.
Everything has to be "socialy web", "cloud based" and "fun". Maybe Win8 is all of this, and for the consumer this is what is wanted (and needed).
Nexxo 20th February 2013, 09:35 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by impar
So, since 1995 she didnt learned how to use Start Menu and now she would know how to scroll right?! You are an optimist. :D
Are you saying that browsing through a long list of cascading menus with small icons is easier than scrolling right through a single page with big, grouped icons?
Quote:
Originally Posted by impar
So tiles are not shortcuts now?
They are big shortcuts that are pinned automatically. That's the difference.
Quote:
Originally Posted by SexyHyde
Some people are enthusiastic with their purchases, then realise that they don't quite work as they expected later - post review. Show me a follow up review that is as good or better than the original.
Here you go.
Quote:
Originally Posted by SexyHyde
Whatever drugs your on. I WANT. http://www.thefreedictionary.com/indistinguishable or your understanding of the English language needs improving.
OK, besides the Start Screen, which you can largely ignore or replace, and the Charms Bar, which again you can totally ignore, what are the differences then?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Corky42
For real ? you seriously believe a company selling a product is going to slate it, they would say anything if it means they sell more.
These are customer reviews, not company reviews. They are also consistent with the posts on several forums of Surface RT owners praising the device. The only people who criticise it, it seems, have never actually used one.
impar 20th February 2013, 11:50 Quote
Greetings!
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nexxo
Are you saying that browsing through a long list of cascading menus with small icons is easier than scrolling right through a single page with big, grouped icons?
How would she even know how to scroll the single page? She seems to not be aware on how to click the Start and click on the Word shortcut on most used programs. Two clicks, same as in Start Screen.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nexxo
They are big shortcuts that are pinned automatically. That's the difference.
And she didnt have a shortcut in TaskBar or QuickLaunch or Desktop why? Microsoft didnt put it there? Even so the shortcut its there on "most used".

By the way, where is the "most used" list on the StartScreen? I forgot... :)
Krazeh 20th February 2013, 12:43 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by impar
Greetings!

How would she even know how to scroll the single page? She seems to not be aware on how to click the Start and click on the Word shortcut on most used programs. Two clicks, same as in Start Screen.

If she opened Word by opening documents then does it put Word in the most used programs section? And if it does it assumes it is one of her top 5 or so used programs.
Quote:
Originally Posted by impar
And she didnt have a shortcut in TaskBar or QuickLaunch or Desktop why? Microsoft didnt put it there? Even so the shortcut its there on "most used"..

Nope, MS doesn't put shortcuts there. And as stated above there's no reason to assume it would be in 'most used'.
Corky42 20th February 2013, 13:18 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nexxo
Yet at the same time Staples and John Lewis product reviews for the Surface RT are almost invariably full of praise. Obviously you can mash a tablet and desktop OS together.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nexxo
These are customer reviews, not company reviews. They are also consistent with the posts on several forums of Surface RT owners praising the device. The only people who criticise it, it seems, have never actually used one.

TBH im not going to spend £400 just to find out what everyone knows (apart from you it seems)
That Windows 8 is a OS for Tablets and touch devices NOT Desktop users with a mouse and keyboard.

Because M$ decided to shoot them self in the foot by not letting users choose how to use there devices.
Krazeh 20th February 2013, 13:47 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by Corky42
TBH im not going to spend £400 just to find out what everyone knows (apart from you it seems)
That Windows 8 is a OS for Tablets and touch devices NOT Desktop users with a mouse and keyboard.

Because M$ decided to shoot them self in the foot by not letting users choose how to use there devices.

Windows 8 works very well on my desktop with my keyboard and mouse. Perhaps you're just using it wrong? And I'm pretty sure you're free to alter Windows 8 if you wish to use it in a different way; MS haven't stopped you from being to use the old start menu if you choose, they just haven't provided their own option for it.
impar 20th February 2013, 14:01 Quote
Greetings!
Quote:
Originally Posted by Krazeh
If she opened Word by opening documents then does it put Word in the most used programs section?
Of course! Just have to look at your "most used" list.
Two clicks away, Start and Word. Same as W8 with Start Screen.
leexgx 20th February 2013, 14:04 Quote
@nexxo
sure your not working for ms

every customer apart from the odd 2 (but they was computer competent and found 3rd party app to restore start menu ) win 8 confused the hell out of them and still is partly an issue when they get stuck on an random metro screen even after I have installed startisback

on an touch device its most likely ok to use
will_123 20th February 2013, 14:05 Quote
Quote:

That's because in many ways it isn't. On a current desktop there probably is little reason to upgrade to Windows 8, especially if you're happy with 7. But like it or not computing and the way we interact with machines is changing. Windows 8 is the start of the path of an OS designed for the future of computing.

Enlighten me to what the future of computing is?

I reckon your referring to Microsoft take on it. Who knows what will happen if they keep going with this UI?
Quote:

These are customer reviews, not company reviews. They are also consistent with the posts on several forums of Surface RT owners praising the device. The only people who criticise it, it seems, have never actually used one.

I have used it. And im not singing its praises. But then im not a fan of this UI
Krazeh 20th February 2013, 14:06 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by impar
Greetings!

Of course! Just have to look at your "most used" list.
Two clicks away, Start and Word. Same as W8 with Start Screen.

I don't use Windows 7 and when I did I don't recall any programs like Word ending up in my most used list.
Corky42 20th February 2013, 14:39 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by Krazeh
Windows 8 works very well on my desktop with my keyboard and mouse. Perhaps you're just using it wrong? And I'm pretty sure you're free to alter Windows 8 if you wish to use it in a different way; MS haven't stopped you from being to use the old start menu if you choose, they just haven't provided their own option for it.

Read the rest of the thread
It has already been discussed that you can alter the OS, By forcing users into the FSSM its pretty clear M$ has intended Windows 8 for tablet/touch devices
Quote:
Originally Posted by Krazeh
I don't use Windows 7 and when I did I don't recall any programs like Word ending up in my most used list.

Perhaps you're just using it wrong? Windows 7 be default stores and displays recently opened item/programs in the start menu and/or taskbar.
leexgx 20th February 2013, 14:40 Quote
norm it does after you have opened it enough times
Krazeh 20th February 2013, 14:49 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by Corky42
Read the rest of the thread
It has already been discussed that you can alter the OS, By forcing users into the FSSM its pretty clear M$ has intended Windows 8 for tablet/touch devices

So we agree that you can choose how to use your system and MS aren't preventing you from doing that. And MS have always been clear that Windows 8 was intended for tablet/touch devices as well as desktops.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Corky42
Perhaps you're just using it wrong? Windows 7 be default stores and displays recently opened item/programs in the start menu and/or taskbar.

It probably had more to do with me using other programs more regularly. The point still stands that Impar can't assume someone would have Word in their most-used programs list simply because they open word documents.
Corky42 20th February 2013, 17:35 Quote
@Krazeh, Have you even read what has been discussed already ?

Or would you like me to point out where third party programs and the forcing of a FSSM on users is something average PC users may have problems with.
Nexxo 20th February 2013, 19:49 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by Corky42
TBH im not going to spend £400 just to find out what everyone knows (apart from you it seems) That Windows 8 is a OS for Tablets and touch devices NOT Desktop users with a mouse and keyboard.
Then how come so many desktop users are perfectly happy with it?
Quote:
Originally Posted by impar
Of course! Just have to look at your "most used" list.
Two clicks away, Start and Word. Same as W8 with Start Screen.
And still she couldn't find it. Says something about the Start Menu, no?
Quote:
Originally Posted by leexgx
@nexxo
sure your not working for ms
Sure you're not working for Apple? Or is that a silly question? :p
Quote:
Originally Posted by will_123
Enlighten me to what the future of computing is?
This is.
Quote:
Originally Posted by will_123
I have used it. And im not singing its praises. But then im not a fan of this UI
Kudo's, you're the first in this thread to have actually tried a Surface RT.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Corky42
@Krazeh, Have you even read what has been discussed already ?

Or would you like me to point out where third party programs and the forcing of a FSSM on users is something average PC users may have problems with.
Then again, as I have argued before, they may not. It is all speculation, no?
leexgx 20th February 2013, 20:26 Quote
there are things with apple I do not like as well (but that tends to be the mouse normally, but that is nit picking )

but with apple you just turn off things you do not like your not forced to use apple market you can just ignore it

I have an unused minimac (needs more ram and new osx installing) all other pcs are win7 and 2 win8 test laptops
Nexxo 20th February 2013, 20:54 Quote
You can simply turn things off in Win8. You are not forced to use Windows App market on Win8. Same difference.

iOS however...

OSX Lion was lambasted for being messy and confusing, a hotch-potch of previous OSX and iOS. Sounds familiar? And now we have Ubuntu Linux for tablets, with suspiciously Win8-like features and oh, look: a desktop option (for use with keyboard and mouse).

What we're seeing here is a convergence of tablets, desktops and laptops (and mobile phones). Until the hardware market sorts itself out a bit initial OS releases are going to feel a bit Frankenstein, a bit ill-suited to the device that may not have all the input features yet that the OS is tailored to. But you only need to use a Lenovo Yoga (any version) to get a taste of laptops to come. You only need to see the new Wacom drawing screen/computer to get a glimpse of future desktops. It'd a bit clunky now, but so was Windows 1 to 3.11. It will work itself out. Breathe in the paper bag, relax and enjoy the future of computing. It's bright.
leexgx 20th February 2013, 21:24 Quote
please stop :)
I have an hole list of stuff I do not like on osx as well, but I can still use one the same as I can now as I could 15 years ago,
if I had to switch to OSX now I really would have no problem with it for the most part (games)all I just need to buy an real mouse (the apple mouse sucks)

Linux (or should say distros ) are to fragmented to use really, I do not mind using command line or console but some of the commands on linux are stupid to type to fix simple stuff (programmers should think that normal users are going to use them) any way that's an topic in it self

I see using an computer from an normal user stance and I find windows 8 confusing and annoying to use when it should not be (yes I do know where stuff is now) but the fix is install startisback app, if I find it confusing to use, my customers would be clue less (the computer lessons would be useless or past 15 years of using windows that they had )
Nexxo 20th February 2013, 21:30 Quote
OK, again: apart from the Start Screen (which is not exactly rocket science) and the Charms menu, how is Windows 8 different from Windows 7?
impar 20th February 2013, 22:38 Quote
Greetings!
Quote:
Originally Posted by Krazeh
I don't use Windows 7 and when I did I don't recall any programs like Word ending up in my most used list.
Any program that is used often goes in the list. It doesnt matter how it is opened, if you start the program or the program is started if you ckick a file type.
You didnt used the last versions of Windows?

And again, where is the "most used" list in W8?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nexxo
And still she couldn't find it. Says something about the Start Menu, no?
About the StartMenu, No. About her selective blindness, yes.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nexxo
You can simply turn things off in Win8.
Where are the Microsoft provided options to disable Metro, Charms and StartScreen then?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nexxo
This is.
In 2019? :) You really are an optimist. ;)
leexgx 20th February 2013, 22:57 Quote
nice (video, that looks ok to use really, icons around the screen No hidden sidebars or corners)

any way main thing is stuff is hidden when it should not be, things are not apparent what they do until you 1 find it by mistake or 2 you Google/youtube it

other issue is why do i have to use keyboard due to lack of touch screen (its not an apple pc so i should not need to use keyboard - that statement was about lack of right click on macs you had to press CMD to do it a bit ago or use an MS mouse that magically pressed CMD when you right clicked, think it still does)

where is the document folder in metro ? i have yet to find that yet (really trying to not google it :) ) guess i play with the laptops bit more
Corky42 20th February 2013, 23:53 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nexxo
Then how come so many desktop users are perfectly happy with it?

There not happy with it hence the awful uptake, worse than when Vista was released.
So far this is M$ biggest flop ever.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nexxo
OK, again: apart from the Start Screen (which is not exactly rocket science) and the Charms menu, how is Windows 8 different from Windows 7?

Windows 8 is basically windows 7 but with a GUI designed for tablets/touch devises that make using it awkward at best, and as the GUI is the main interface with your device i would say a hole lot has changed.
Windows 8 bring nothing new technically to the table just a very disjointed, confusing, un-productive way of working.
Nexxo 20th February 2013, 23:57 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by impar
About the StartMenu, No. About her selective blindness, yes.
Oh, I see. If Win8 doesn't work for you, it's the fault of the OS. If WinXP doesn't work for others, it's their fault. :p
Quote:
Originally Posted by impar
Where are the Microsoft provided options to disable Metro, Charms and StartScreen then?
Since when do you care who provides them? Wasn't Windows' greatest advantage that it is fully open and that you can install any software on it that you want?
Quote:
Originally Posted by impar
In 2019? :) You really are an optimist. ;)
Or you are being pedantic because you are lost for a good counter-argument. The date is arbitrary. The vision is not. But keep in mind that, you know, less than three years ago there were no tablets. Less than six years ago, no iPhone or derivatives. Look at us now. What do you think could happen in the next six years?

Still waiting to hear how, besides the Start Screen and the Charms Menu, Win8 is different from Win7.

And leexgx: the recent items for a program can be called up simply by right-clicking on the program icon pinned to the desktop taskbar. Alternatively, just open the run dialog box by pressing Win + R and type in "recent". There you can see your recent activities.

You can also create a shortcut of the "recent items" folder on your desktop and then pin it to the Start Screen. For this just right click on desktop and seclect New>Shortcut. In file location type the path C:/users/username/recent. You can also define a Hotkey for this from properties.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Corky42
There not happy with it hence the awful uptake, worse than when Vista was released. So far this is M$ biggest flop ever.
And after Vista we had Windows 7: huge success. So even if Windows 8 is not as successful as Windows 7 or even Vista, that does not mean Microsoft should reverse what it is doing anymore than it should have gone back to XP after Vista's lukewarm reception.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Corky42
Windows 8 is basically windows 7 but with a GUI designed for tablets/touch devises that make using it awkward at best, and as the GUI is the main interface with your device i would say a hole lot has changed.
Windows 8 bring nothing new technically to the table just a very disjointed, confusing, un-productive way of working.

Apart from the Start Screen (which is not exactly rocket science) and the Charms menu, how is the GUI Windows 8 different from Windows 7?
Corky42 21st February 2013, 01:22 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nexxo
Apart from the Start Screen (which is not exactly rocket science) and the Charms menu, how is the GUI Windows 8 different from Windows 7?

I'm sure you have noticed but the FSSM is the GUI.
If you cant see the difference from the default GUI in 8 to the default GUI in 7 maybe you need to go to spec savers ;)
Corky42 21st February 2013, 01:49 Quote
Sry dbl post
SexyHyde 21st February 2013, 04:04 Quote
Dear Nexxo why did you past a link about Windows Surface RT when we were talking about Windows 8? Having trouble finding a relevant review? Have to go through many to find that ONE? that still doesn't address what was asked.
Ohh and Windows isn't fully open. It unified a large fragmented computing arena and monopolized it.
Ohh and whether you intend to be or not, you sir are a trollolololololololololololololololololololololololol
Nexxo 21st February 2013, 09:27 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by Corky42
I'm sure you have noticed but the FSSM is the GUI.
If you cant see the difference from the default GUI in 8 to the default GUI in 7 maybe you need to go to spec savers ;)
I'm still waiting for that long list of presumed differences. "Well, if you can't see it..." is not a valid argument (I mean, is that the best you can do?).
Quote:
Originally Posted by SexyHyde
Dear Nexxo why did you past a link about Windows Surface RT when we were talking about Windows 8? Having trouble finding a relevant review? Have to go through many to find that ONE? that still doesn't address what was asked.
Ohh and Windows isn't fully open. It unified a large fragmented computing arena and monopolized it.
Ohh and whether you intend to be or not, you sir are a trollolololololololololololololololololololololololol

Oh, OK then:
http://www.sitepoint.com/windows-8-review-3/
http://rcpmag.com/Articles/2013/01/01/One-OS-to-Bind-Them.aspx?Page=1

And four out of ten cats prefer Win8:
http://www.zdnet.com/dogfooding-windows-8-six-long-term-windows-8-users-tell-all_p5-7000007850/

Windows 8 is open in that you can install anything on it that was written for it --by anyone, through any channel. As such you can mod it beyond recognition and if you are a geek, you would have.

But I must admit that I cower in the devastatingly compelling argument of: "trololololololololol". :p
Corky42 21st February 2013, 12:13 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nexxo
I'm still waiting for that long list of presumed differences. "Well, if you can't see it..." is not a valid argument (I mean, is that the best you can do?).

That's like asking someone to explain the difference between the Windows 7 GUI and the XBOX GUI they are designed for a totally different way to interact with the device, so trying to draw comparisons are futile as the list could go on for hundreds of pages.

But as it seems you have problems telling what the differences are from just looking at screen shots, using it or reading about it.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Windows_8#Interface_and_desktop
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metro_%28design_language%29
http://arstechnica.com/information-technology/2012/04/windows-8-on-the-desktopan-awkward-hybrid/
impar 21st February 2013, 13:50 Quote
Greetings!
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nexxo
Oh, I see. If Win8 doesn't work for you, it's the fault of the OS. If WinXP doesn't work for others, it's their fault.
Press Start, press Word icon.
Press Start, press Word tile.
Same thing.
If she doesnt see the Word shortcut (on a system she is used to since 1995) it is selective blindness. Even more if she is receiving instructions on how to get there.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nexxo
But keep in mind that, you know, less than three years ago there were no tablets. Less than six years ago, no iPhone or derivatives. Look at us now. What do you think could happen in the next six years?
Improvements on wireless connections between all kind of devices.
Devices combinations where the UI is adpatable to what input method is used.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nexxo
Still waiting to hear how, besides the Start Screen and the Charms Menu, Win8 is different from Win7.
Again?
Quote:
Originally Posted by impar
The lack of choice of what Start to use, the fullscreened Metro apps in a 24" monitor, the half-baked combination of two UIs, the touch-first UI, the stupid popup Charms, the lack of a global search on Start, the inability to choose on what program to open a searched file, ...
Plus the lack of "most used" list.
Nexxo 21st February 2013, 19:37 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by Corky42
That's like asking someone to explain the difference between the Windows 7 GUI and the XBOX GUI they are designed for a totally different way to interact with the device, so trying to draw comparisons are futile as the list could go on for hundreds of pages.

But as it seems you have problems telling what the differences are from just looking at screen shots, using it or reading about it.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Windows_8#Interface_and_desktop
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metro_%28design_language%29
http://arstechnica.com/information-technology/2012/04/windows-8-on-the-desktopan-awkward-hybrid/

Myeaok, but instead of picking, say, the five most compelling differences from those hundreds of pages (plenty of choice, no?), you post an image referring (again) to the Start Screen. Surely there are more differences than that? Or is that it? Charms and Start Screen?

Heck, even your last link says:
Quote:
The good news is that these specific criticisms are largely off-base. Windows 8 includes a full desktop with all the applications and behavior that you expect a Windows desktop to include. This means full multitasking (no background suspension or termination), full system access (to the extent that your user permissions allow), resizable non-maximized windows, Aero snap, pinned taskbar icons, alt-tab—it's all still there and it all still works...

...The new design may have been driven by the needs of touch, but it doesn't make the mouse any worse, and in some ways makes it better. I think pinned programs work better with the Start screen, and the All Programs view doesn't degrade quite as horribly as the old Start menu when filled with hundreds of icons.
Quote:
Originally Posted by impar

Press Start, press Word icon.
Press Start, press Word tile.
Same thing.
So are you saying that there is no functional difference between the Start Menu and the Start Screen? Then what is your problem?
Quote:
Originally Posted by impar
Improvements on wireless connections between all kind of devices.
Devices combinations where the UI is adpatable to what input method is used.
Yes indeed. And this is the first step towards that.
Quote:
Originally Posted by impar
Plus the lack of "most used" list.
Which is the most confusing and useless feature, because over time it keeps changing the position of the icons. The Pinned Items list is more practical.
Corky42 22nd February 2013, 01:03 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nexxo
Heck, even your last link says:
Quote:
The good news is that these specific criticisms are largely off-base. Windows 8 includes a full desktop with all the applications and behavior that you expect a Windows desktop to include. This means full multitasking (no background suspension or termination), full system access (to the extent that your user permissions allow), resizable non-maximized windows, Aero snap, pinned taskbar icons, alt-tab—it's all still there and it all still works...

But you forgot to quote the next sentence
Quote:
The bad news is that the various pieces of the operating system do not in fact mesh together smoothly; the seams, especially between the Metro and legacy interfaces, remain obvious and jarring. For desktop users, the experience remains decidedly mixed.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nexxo
So are you saying that there is no functional difference between the Start Menu and the Start Screen? Then what is your problem?

There is a great deal of functional difference between the two.

1. The Start screen has no recently used feature.

2. Applications get pinned automatically when installed.

3. The FSSM will not let you have more than two programs on the screen at a time.

4. Programs work fullscreen and can't be arbitrarily resized.

5. FSSM programs can't be moved from one screen to another.

6. Switcher groups all desktop programs into just one thumbnail.

7. Windows Mail Doesn't Support POP Accounts.

8. Tablet Users Need to Enter the Desktop for Key Functions.

9. Windows Desktop Gadgets was removed from Windows 8

10. It is no longer possible to change the color of window backgrounds and other elements

11. The "Manage wireless networks" option on the task pane of the Network and Sharing Center control panel is no longer available.

12. Shortcuts for the Bluetooth File Transfer wizard on a device with Bluetooth communication, are no longer provided

13. Windows Media Center is no longer included by default on any edition of Windows 8

14. MPEG-2 video codec is no longer included by default

15. Windows DVD Maker was removed.

16. The Check Disk utility only shows a percentage when running at startup

17. Memory addresses and other technical information has been removed from the Windows 8 bug check screen (BSOD)

18. Windows XP Mode is not supported.

19. Device Manager no longer shows Non-Plug and Play Drivers/hidden devices. The "Devmgr_Show_NonPresent_Devices=1' environment variable has no effect.

20. Applications can no longer programmatically configure, change or query file associations or set themselves during installation as the default for a file type or protocol!

21. Explorer metadata/property handler for media files is removed which means the Details pane won't show those nice properties

22. The "Unblock" button previously available on the file properties dialog for unblocking downloaded files (removing the NTFS Alternate Data Stream from the downloaded file) has been removed.

23. Search option to use natural language search has been removed.

24. Mouse control panel option to allow or disallow themes to change mouse pointers is removed from the GUI

25. Sound events for 'Exit Windows', 'Windows Logon' and 'Windows Logoff' are removed

26. Previous Versions for Shadow Copies is removed. The half-baked replacement is the File History feature which is only for certain file types (documents, music, videos and pictures) in Libraries, desktop and browser favorites. Previous Versions worked for any generic file type in any folder. File History does not even support EFS-encrypted files! File History is supposed to replace both "Previous Versions for Shadow Copies" as well as "Windows Backup and Restore" and it doesn't do 100% of either of the features it "replaces".

27. Explorer: Ability to enable both Details pane and Preview pane simultaneously in Explorer for display of file metadata as well as preview, or, Details pane to be always shown and only the Preview pane toggled is gone.

28. The AutoPlay dialog removes the option to always open a particular program based on the file type

29. The Windows Error Reporting dialog for reporting/debugging crashes does not save the state of "View details"

30. The ability to completely deconfigure UAC and run with administrator privileges full time has been removed.

Happy now :(
Nexxo 22nd February 2013, 09:54 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by Corky42

There is a great deal of functional difference between the two.

1. The Start screen has no recently used feature.
Pin Recent folder to Start Screen.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Corky42
2. Applications get pinned automatically when installed.
They were on Win7; this is installer dependent.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Corky42
3. The FSSM will not let you have more than two programs on the screen at a time.
Use desktop program alternatives.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Corky42
4. Programs work fullscreen and can't be arbitrarily resized.
Use desktop programs.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Corky42
5. FSSM programs can't be moved from one screen to another.
Use desktop programs.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Corky42
6. Switcher groups all desktop programs into just one thumbnail.
Use ALT+TAB as with Windows 7.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Corky42
7. Windows Mail Doesn't Support POP Accounts.
Use Thunderbird. Use IMAP. Use Exchange (you can with Google Mail). Or are you expecting emails from the Nineties?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Corky42
8. Tablet Users Need to Enter the Desktop for Key Functions.
Except that I own a Windows tablet, and I don't.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Corky42
9. Windows Desktop Gadgets was removed from Windows 8
Good riddance. Use Samurize, Rainmeter, Yahoo Widgets.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Corky42
10. It is no longer possible to change the color of window backgrounds and other elements
It is like in Windows 7.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Corky42
11. The "Manage wireless networks" option on the task pane of the Network and Sharing Center control panel is no longer available.
Right-click on Network icon in taskbar or go through Control Panel. It's all still there.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Corky42
12. Shortcuts for the Bluetooth File Transfer wizard on a device with Bluetooth communication, are no longer provided
Right-click Bluetooth icon in taskbar and select Send File or Receive File.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Corky42
13. Windows Media Center is no longer included by default on any edition of Windows 8
Free download until end January; now a tenner.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Corky42
14. MPEG-2 video codec is no longer included by default
Download free codec pack.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Corky42
15. Windows DVD Maker was removed.
Tragedy. Download free alternative.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Corky42
16. The Check Disk utility only shows a percentage when running at startup
And this is a problem how?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Corky42
17. Memory addresses and other technical information has been removed from the Windows 8 bug check screen (BSOD)
Yeah, because that really meant something to the average user...
Quote:
Originally Posted by Corky42
18. Windows XP Mode is not supported.
Why would you want it to be?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Corky42
19. Device Manager no longer shows Non-Plug and Play Drivers/hidden devices. The "Devmgr_Show_NonPresent_Devices=1' environment variable has no effect.
These devices are now shown under the correct device categories by default.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Corky42
20. Applications can no longer programmatically configure, change or query file associations or set themselves during installation as the default for a file type or protocol!
Yes, they can and they do.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Corky42
21. Explorer metadata/property handler for media files is removed which means the Details pane won't show those nice properties
Doesn't it?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Corky42
22. The "Unblock" button previously available on the file properties dialog for unblocking downloaded files (removing the NTFS Alternate Data Stream from the downloaded file) has been removed.
You'll have to explain that one to me.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Corky42
23. Search option to use natural language search has been removed.
And again: how is this a problem?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Corky42
24. Mouse control panel option to allow or disallow themes to change mouse pointers is removed from the GUI
You can still use themes.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Corky42
25. Sound events for 'Exit Windows', 'Windows Logon' and 'Windows Logoff' are removed
They are lumped under Account Control sound. Not something I would call a major productivity issue though.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Corky42
26. Previous Versions for Shadow Copies is removed. The half-baked replacement is the File History feature which is only for certain file types (documents, music, videos and pictures) in Libraries, desktop and browser favorites. Previous Versions worked for any generic file type in any folder. File History does not even support EFS-encrypted files! File History is supposed to replace both "Previous Versions for Shadow Copies" as well as "Windows Backup and Restore" and it doesn't do 100% of either of the features it "replaces".
Shadow Copies was a complex all-or-nothing solution that most users didn't even know was there, let alone used. File History is closer to Apple's Time Machine and easier for the average user to understand and use. It covers what it needs to. For the rest of us, we all have NAS with synced folders.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Corky42
27. Explorer: Ability to enable both Details pane and Preview pane simultaneously in Explorer for display of file metadata as well as preview, or, Details pane to be always shown and only the Preview pane toggled is gone.
Minor drawback, IMHO.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Corky42
28. The AutoPlay dialog removes the option to always open a particular program based on the file type
I'm sure it's still there.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Corky42
29. The Windows Error Reporting dialog for reporting/debugging crashes does not save the state of "View details"
Again, does that information actually mean anything to you?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Corky42
30. The ability to completely deconfigure UAC and run with administrator privileges full time has been removed.
When you are an admin account, you hardly ever get nagged. Much improved over Vista. So a minor niggle.

I'm sorry, but you list either issues related to the Metro component that you can ignore, tiny details that are incorrect, easily adjusted or that only the most obsessive of power users might notice. Nothing that threatens productivity or the general desktop experience.
faugusztin 22nd February 2013, 10:20 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by Corky42
5. FSSM programs can't be moved from one screen to another.

Strange, i can move the whole Metro desktop from one screen to another. Drag & drop, done.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Corky42
21. Explorer metadata/property handler for media files is removed which means the Details pane won't show those nice properties

I guess i am from an alternate reality :
http://img46.imageshack.us/img46/4028/detailsb.png
Quote:
Originally Posted by Corky42
22. The "Unblock" button previously available on the file properties dialog for unblocking downloaded files (removing the NTFS Alternate Data Stream from the downloaded file) has been removed.

This one is from alternate reality too then :
http://img339.imageshack.us/img339/2074/unblockn.png
Corky42 22nd February 2013, 10:53 Quote
So basically your answer to what has changed in Windows 8 is,
To use programs designed for running on windows 7 and not the FSSM
To use third party program to bring back features that have been removed
Pay M$ some money to get a feature back

I get the feeling anything i say is falling on deaf ears, as first you ask me what is diffrent from Win7 and then when i tell you, your answer seem to be ohh never mind just spend money on programs that bring back what has been removed.

8. Tablet Users Need to Enter the Desktop for Key Functions.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nexxo
Except that I own a Windows tablet, and I don't.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nexxo
Right-click on Network icon in taskbar or go through Control Panel. It's all still there.

Either that's one strange tablet with a mouse attached, or you have just entered the desktop for a key function. what one is it ?

16. The Check Disk utility only shows a percentage when running at startup
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nexxo
And this is a problem how?

So if your drive has bad sectors or other problems how are you going to know that ?

17. Memory addresses and other technical information has been removed from the Windows 8 bug check screen (BSOD)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nexxo
Yeah, because that really meant something to the average user...

The average user is not the one trying to fix the problem though, there IT dept is however

18. Windows XP Mode is not supported.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nexxo
Why would you want it to be?

Hmm IDK maybe to install a program that will not run in 8, and for testing purposes
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nexxo
These devices are now shown under the correct device categories by default.

No they dont, Show Hidden Devices=devices that are part of a setup class that is marked as a NoDisplayClass in the registry.
DEVMGR_SHOW_NONPRESENT_DEVICES=1 means devices that were physically removed from the computer but whose registry entries were not deleted. Get the difference?

22. The "Unblock" button previously available on the file properties dialog for unblocking downloaded files (removing the NTFS Alternate Data Stream from the downloaded file) has been removed.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nexxo
You'll have to explain that one to me.

Simple download a .exe file from the internet on windows 7 bring up properties for said file and you can remove the NTFS Alternate Data Stream from the downloaded file by using the option to unblock the file.
In windows 8 this has to be done from the command prompt now.

28. The AutoPlay dialog removes the option to always open a particular program based on the file type
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nexxo
I'm sure it's still there.

No, it is not.

But as i said it seem you have rose tinted glasses on as your solution's to fixing these problems is hey it doesn't matter, install a third party program, switch to the desktop, plug in a mouse to your tablet. So i get the feeling no matter how bad Windows 8 was you would still ignore its failings or work around them.
faugusztin 22nd February 2013, 11:10 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by Corky42
Simple download a .exe file from the internet on windows 7 bring up properties for said file and you can remove the NTFS Alternate Data Stream from the downloaded file by using the option to unblock the file.
In windows 8 this has to be done from the command prompt now.

Just downloaded Total Commander from the Internet, guess what i see in Windows 8 ?
http://img17.imageshack.us/img17/8011/tcmdjustdownloaded.png
Quote:
Originally Posted by Corky42
28. The AutoPlay dialog removes the option to always open a particular program based on the file type

Are you sure you don't mean the Set Default Programs dialog ?
Corky42 22nd February 2013, 11:12 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by faugusztin
Strange, i can move the whole Metro desktop from one screen to another. Drag & drop, done.

But sadly not the program that is running on the metro desktop
Quote:
Originally Posted by faugusztin
I guess i am from an alternate reality :

"The file system that you normally use is NTFS. Alternate data streams are still supported in NTFS for Windows 8. The new file system that we will also be providing in Windows 8 is ReFS. ReFS doesn't support Alternate data streams."

http://www.bit-tech.net/news/bits/2012/01/17/microsoft-refs-file-system/1
faxiij 22nd February 2013, 12:59 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by faugusztin
@faxiij: So it didn't bother you when Google joined your Gmail, Google+, Google Analytics, Google <insert other acquired product name> with your Android account ? It didn't bother you when Apple did it with the Apple/me/iCloud accounts ? But if MS does try to use centralized accounts (even with the option to use local accounts) as the last one on the market, then MS instantly turns into a bad, evil company who wants to steal your data.

MS is the last one to have centralized accounts, but some of you guys scream it's too soon. MS is the last one to deliver a touch friendly interface, but you guys scream it's too soon. Before Windows 8 all we could hear was "is MS sleeping, where is their tablet (touch friendly) platform?". and "i would buy a tablet, but it needs Windows/Intel CPU/...".

You guys are never satisfied, even if MS would deliver you your dream OS, you would have a reason to complain. :(

Well, I use WP7 so never used Android - and as a passionate Apple-Hater I have absolutely nothing to do with iOS besides bashing it.

Fair point though. Just because MS was last to do this doesn't mean however that I like it. It's just a general principle - I want to be able to use the internet when I want to, how I want to. I don't want companies to force the internet on me. I think it is very vital to remain control over your own internet exposure, as far as that is possible.

But that's another topic altogether.

But as far as my computer is concerned, I want to be able to separate it. To remain full functionality (well, besides internet functions such as browsing) when I choose to disable the internet (via adapter or else). Not sure how most on bit-tech work, but don't touch Google Docs or any of that. My work is usually completely local and I even have computers that never have internet connectivity. So for that purpose, I fear where MS might be headed....Towards an online-only experience.
faugusztin 22nd February 2013, 13:04 Quote
Guess what - MS accounts work offline too - you only need to log in with it on that computer at least once, and it will work with the last password you have used when you were connected to internet.

And you do realize you can still use local accounts, right ?
faxiij 22nd February 2013, 13:07 Quote
"I'm sorry, but you list either issues related to the Metro component that you can ignore, tiny details that are incorrect, easily adjusted or that only the most obsessive of power users might notice. Nothing that threatens productivity or the general desktop experience."

Well...that is kinda the point. If I wanted an OS, where I need to tweak "tiny" details (and loads of them) and constantly look for alternatives or work-arounds, I might as well get a Linux distro from 2000.

Windows 7 installed works for me pretty much perfectly, right out of the box. No need to change anything, or do any major tweaks. The point being, MS does know how to create an efficient workspace and ensure a very smooth user experience. Which is, essentially, where MS f***ed up majorly with W8, imho.
faxiij 22nd February 2013, 13:08 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by faugusztin
Guess what - MS accounts work offline too - you only need to log in with it on that computer at least once, and it will work with the last password you have used when you were connected to internet.

And you do realize you can still use local accounts, right ?

Yes. But it is annoying plus the question remains, if/when they remove the option for local accounts.
Nexxo 22nd February 2013, 14:30 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by Corky42
So basically your answer to what has changed in Windows 8 is,
To use programs designed for running on windows 7 and not the FSSM
To use third party program to bring back features that have been removed
Pay M$ some money to get a feature back
No, I'm saying that most of the perceived changes are still there, just as in Windows 7, that if you want a Windows 7 desktop experience you can have one by using the usual and ubiquitously available desktop software instead of Metro apps and that the few features that are removed can either can be added for free (if you really want them) or else are superfluous to the average user anyway.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Corky42
I get the feeling anything i say is falling on deaf ears, as first you ask me what is diffrent from Win7 and then when i tell you, your answer seem to be ohh never mind just spend money on programs that bring back what has been removed.
You know what I'm saying, because in your rebuttal your 30 point list has already whittled down to six. The deafness is yours.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Corky42
Either that's one strange tablet with a mouse attached, or you have just entered the desktop for a key function. what one is it ?
It's not a key function when I use my tablet. I set up my WiFi connection in Metro and was done.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Corky42
So if your drive has bad sectors or other problems how are you going to know that ?
CheckDisk fixes those automatically, and if it can't labels them as bad and avoids using them (as has been happening since DOS). Knowing about them is great for power users, but they have more powerful software to examine their HDD (they don't use CheckDisk for that). Average users don't even know what a sector is. They just want it to work.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Corky42
The average user is not the one trying to fix the problem though, there IT dept is however
Yeah and guess what? They have more powerful diagnostic utilities than BSOD.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Corky42
Hmm IDK maybe to install a program that will not run in 8, and for testing purposes
Compatibility Mode is still available, and goes right back to Windows 95.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Corky42
No they dont, Show Hidden Devices=devices that are part of a setup class that is marked as a NoDisplayClass in the registry.
DEVMGR_SHOW_NONPRESENT_DEVICES=1 means devices that were physically removed from the computer but whose registry entries were not deleted. Get the difference?
Yup. And users are finding that Windows 8 deletes these files and registry entries (where Windows 7 did not). It seems to have a slightly better uninstallation/cleanup procedure.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Corky42
22. The "Unblock" button previously available on the file properties dialog for unblocking downloaded files (removing the NTFS Alternate Data Stream from the downloaded file) has been removed.
I think fauguztin already showed it's still there.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Corky42
28. The AutoPlay dialog removes the option to always open a particular program based on the file type
Control Panel --> Hardware and Sound --> Autoplay. Set as required.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Corky42
But as i said it seem you have rose tinted glasses on as your solution's to fixing these problems is hey it doesn't matter, install a third party program, switch to the desktop, plug in a mouse to your tablet. So i get the feeling no matter how bad Windows 8 was you would still ignore its failings or work around them.
Given the number of times fauguztin and I have had to point out that most features are still there, and you actually argue that switching to the desktop and using desktop programs is a poor solution for having a Windows 7 desktop experience ( :? ) I get the feeling that it does not matter to you how closely the Windows 8 desktop resembles the Windows 7 desktop.

Face it: the desktop is fine. It is the mere existence of Start Screen and Metro apps that you cannot get past. Even if you can completely ignore it.

BTW I don't need to use a mouse when accessing desktop on my tablet. Strangely, finger works fine. And there's this whole Typecover thing with a trackpad and keyboard which makes it work just like a notebook. Choice is good.
Corky42 22nd February 2013, 16:46 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nexxo
No, I'm saying that most of the perceived changes are still there, just as in Windows 7, that if you want a Windows 7 desktop experience you can have one by using the usual and ubiquitously available desktop software instead of Metro apps and that the few features that are removed can either can be added for free (if you really want them) or else are superfluous to the average user anyway.

Most of these "perceived" changes are in fact real changes that are no longer there.
If i want a windows 7 desktop experience why should i use third party programs with windows 8, why not just use window 7 ?
superfluous to the average user anyway, that's in your opinion just because you may not use it does not mean other don't.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nexxo
You know what I'm saying, because in your rebuttal your 30 point list has already whittled down to six. The deafness is yours.

Far from it, the reason i only picked those 6 is because i find it silly to reiterate every point seeing as your answer is, well i didn't use it, use third party programs, go back to using the old style desktop, etc, etc.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nexxo
It's not a key function when I use my tablet. I set up my WiFi connection in Metro and was done.

Again just because this is not a key function for you does not mean it is the same for everyone.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nexxo
CheckDisk fixes those automatically, and if it can't labels them as bad and avoids using them (as has been happening since DOS). Knowing about them is great for power users, but they have more powerful software to examine their HDD (they don't use CheckDisk for that). Average users don't even know what a sector is. They just want it to work.

So your saying every person with out a IT dept is a power user with powerful software to examine their HDD ?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nexxo
Yeah and guess what? They have more powerful diagnostic utilities than BSOD.

Again your assuming every user has access to "powerful diagnostic utilities" you do realise lots of people actually diagnose and fix there own problems right?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nexxo
Compatibility Mode is still available, and goes right back to Windows 95.

Try running IE6 in windows 8 with compatibility mode, this software maybe very old and not in use by may people but developers still have to test for such things.
http://arstechnica.com/information-technology/2010/01/windows-xp-mode/
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nexxo
Yup. And users are finding that Windows 8 deletes these files and registry entries (where Windows 7 did not). It seems to have a slightly better uninstallation/cleanup procedure.

No Windows 8 does not delete these files, far from it in fact
http://channel9.msdn.com/Forums/Coffeehouse/Troubleshooting-You-dont-need-that
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nexxo
I think fauguztin already showed it's still there.

If your using NTFS true, but The file system that you normally use is NTFS. Alternate data streams are still supported in NTFS for Windows 8. The new file system that we will also be providing in Windows 8 is ReFS. ReFS doesn't support Alternate data streams.
http://www.bit-tech.net/news/bits/2012/01/17/microsoft-refs-file-system/1

The file system M$ want you to use does not support this.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nexxo
Control Panel --> Hardware and Sound --> Autoplay. Set as required.

Yes, But not
http://www.computerperformance.co.uk/images/windows7/autoplay4.jpg
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nexxo
Given the number of times fauguztin and I have had to point out that most features are still there, and you actually argue that switching to the desktop and using desktop programs is a poor solution for having a Windows 7 desktop experience ( :? ) I get the feeling that it does not matter to you how closely the Windows 8 desktop resembles the Windows 7 desktop.

So your saying most of the features are still there even though i have only listed thirty of the many more features that have been removed.
And yes i do argue that having to switch to the crippled desktop is a poor solution because of the way M$ have implemented it.
It not a matter of Windows 8 desktop resembling the Windows 7 desktop, its because of the way M$ has implemented it has caused the hole OS to become schizophrenic.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nexxo
Face it: the desktop is fine. It is the mere existence of Start Screen and Metro apps that you cannot get past. Even if you can completely ignore it.

The desktop is far from fine, I shouldn’t be experiencing two different settings menus when activating the same Charm for example, the switcher should display each program running on the desktop not just the desktop.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nexxo
BTW I don't need to use a mouse when accessing desktop on my tablet. Strangely, finger works fine. And there's this whole Typecover thing with a trackpad and keyboard which makes it work just like a notebook. Choice is good.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Corky42
8. Tablet Users Need to Enter the Desktop for Key Functions
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nexxo
Except that I own a Windows tablet, and I don't.

Sorry im confused, at one point your saying you don't enter the desktop for key functions then in a latter post you say you do !
faugusztin 22nd February 2013, 17:04 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by Corky42
Try running IE6 in windows 8 with compatibility mode, this software maybe very old and not in use by may people but developers still have to test for such things.
http://arstechnica.com/information-technology/2010/01/windows-xp-mode/

IE6 is a bad example, it is not supported anymore even by MS itself - http://www.modern.ie/en-US/virtualization-tools . Last IE6 Compat VHD expired a week ago.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Corky42
The file system M$ want you to use does not support this.

ReFS is a work in progress filesystem for data storage. It won't replace NTFS for few years or at all. 95% of the users use and will use NTFS, there is only a very small group of people using ReFS or Storage spaces.
Nexxo 22nd February 2013, 18:13 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by Corky42
Most of these "perceived" changes are in fact real changes that are no longer there. If i want a windows 7 desktop experience why should i use third party programs with windows 8, why not just use window 7? superfluous to the average user anyway, that's in your opinion just because you may not use it does not mean other don't.
I think the thrust of my argument has been that the desktop experience on Windows 8 is virtually identical to that of Windows 7. Keep using desktop programs, and you hardly have to bother with Metro at all.

As for your reluctance to use third-party programs for a good Windows experience, you are right and I strongly recommend you uninstall Firefox, Thunderbird, Chrome, OpenOffice, any third-party anti-virus or malware programs and mods like Rainmeter or Samurize. Also uninstall the Flash plug-in, Java, Acrobat Reader, WinZip or WinRAR. Microsoft should have provided these functions out of the box. :p
Quote:
Originally Posted by Corky42
Far from it, the reason i only picked those 6 is because i find it silly to reiterate every point seeing as your answer is, well i didn't use it, use third party programs, go back to using the old style desktop, etc, etc.
I see you ommitted: "It's still there" and "If you want the desktop experience, stay in desktop (duh)".
Quote:
Originally Posted by Corky42
Again just because this is not a key function for you does not mean it is the same for everyone.
Conversely, just because it is a key function for you, does not mean it is the same for everyone.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Corky42
So your saying every person with out a IT dept is a power user with powerful software to examine their HDD ?
In the olden days I used to use Norton Disk Doctor (when it was still good). Nowadays you can use the (free) TestDisk. Third-party, though, which I know offends your sensibilities (and I thought it was Microsoft who encouraged a closed garden!).
Quote:
Originally Posted by Corky42
Again your assuming every user has access to "powerful diagnostic utilities" you do realise lots of people actually diagnose and fix there own problems right?
And how many of them use the information on BSOD? How many can make sense of it?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Corky42
Try running IE6 in windows 8 with compatibility mode, this software maybe very old and not in use by may people but developers still have to test for such things.
http://arstechnica.com/information-technology/2010/01/windows-xp-mode/
IE6 doesn't even run properly on Windows XP, let alone in compatibility mode on 7 or 8.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Corky42
No Windows 8 does not delete these files, far from it in fact
http://channel9.msdn.com/Forums/Coffeehouse/Troubleshooting-You-dont-need-that
In such scenarios, there are other, better ways to deal with the problem: http://technet.microsoft.com/en-us/sysinternals/bb963902
Quote:
Originally Posted by Corky42
If your using NTFS true, but The file system that you normally use is NTFS. Alternate data streams are still supported in NTFS for Windows 8. The new file system that we will also be providing in Windows 8 is ReFS. ReFS doesn't support Alternate data streams.
http://www.bit-tech.net/news/bits/2012/01/17/microsoft-refs-file-system/1

The file system M$ want you to use does not support this.
Do you use NTFS or ReFS?
Quote:
OK, I'm convinced. Roll back to Windows 7. Now. :p

Seriously, that's a problem?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Corky42
So your saying most of the features are still there even though i have only listed thirty of the many more features that have been removed.
And yes i do argue that having to switch to the crippled desktop is a poor solution because of the way M$ have implemented it.
It not a matter of Windows 8 desktop resembling the Windows 7 desktop, its because of the way M$ has implemented it has caused the hole OS to become schizophrenic.

The desktop is far from fine, I shouldn’t be experiencing two different settings menus when activating the same Charm for example, the switcher should display each program running on the desktop not just the desktop.

If you list 30 features that have been removed, and I can show that 16 of them are in fact still there, many others can easily be added and the rest is not actually missed, then I think that kind of sets a pattern. But if you want to call that "crippled", be my guest. Perhaps we should create Windows 7 Hyperbole Edition. :p

I'm not trying to argue that the contrast between Metro and desktop is a smooth one. I agree that the flips back and forth can at times feel a bit jarring. I also think it is worth persevering because rough around the edges as it is now, it has a lot of potential and will get smoother (Ubuntu Touch shows some interesting alternatives for the Tablet-Desktop transition, but one that creates some new problems in itself). Arguing for going back to Windows 7 is self-defeating. Vista had many flaws, but does that mean Microsoft should have gone back to Windows XP? Instead it went forward and created Windows 7.

What I am saying is that the Windows 8 desktop is not significantly different from the Windows 7 desktop. Click on Control Panel; use ALT+TAB; do what you did in Windows 7 and you get Windows 7 behaviour and results. Use desktop programs and you get a desktop experience.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Corky42
Sorry im confused, at one point your saying you don't enter the desktop for key functions then in a latter post you say you do !
No, I said that I don't need to access the desktop for Tablet key functions. A "key function" for a Tablet would be to establish a WiFi connection, and I can do that from Metro.

I access the desktop when I want to do productivity tasks or hack the system on a deeper level than you'd do in casual Tablet use. Managing network drivers and their detailed configuration would fall under this.
Corky42 22nd February 2013, 21:04 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nexxo
I think the thrust of my argument has been that the desktop experience on Windows 8 is virtually identical to that of Windows 7. Keep using desktop programs, and you hardly have to bother with Metro at all.

No the thrust of your argument was.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nexxo
I'm still waiting for that long list of presumed differences. "Well, if you can't see it..." is not a valid argument (I mean, is that the best you can do?).

I provided a list of what is different but your answer was, well install something else, use the desktop, don't use it, etc, etc.

And if the desktop experience on Windows 8 is virtually identical to that of Windows 7
Why would i want to use Windows 8 ? why are you saying to install third party programs ?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nexxo
As for your reluctance to use third-party programs for a good Windows experience, you are right and I strongly recommend you uninstall Firefox, Thunderbird, Chrome, OpenOffice, any third-party anti-virus or malware programs and mods like Rainmeter or Samurize. Also uninstall the Flash plug-in, Java, Acrobat Reader, WinZip or WinRAR. Microsoft should have provided these functions out of the box. :p

They do provide them OOB, handling zip files is built in, a web browser is provided, MSE is provided through windows update. You don't have to use Flash, Java.
If you really want to read PDF's there is less bloated software than Acrobat Reader

I'm not against installing third party software, but when you have to do this to bring back functionality that was in a previous version of the OS, then yes i object.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nexxo
I see you ommitted: "It's still there" and "If you want the desktop experience, stay in desktop (duh)".

Again why ? if i want the desktop experience why not use Windows 7 with full functionality. Why would i use Windows 8 with the missing features and a GUI that im never going to use.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nexxo
Conversely, just because it is a key function for you, does not mean it is the same for everyone.

True, but we come back again to a feature that some people may have become used to being removed without a suitable replacement being provided.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nexxo
In the olden days I used to use Norton Disk Doctor (when it was still good). Nowadays you can use the (free) TestDisk. Third-party, though, which I know offends your sensibilities (and I thought it was Microsoft who encouraged a closed garden!).

Again why remove a feature for no reason, that was available in previous OS's when it serves a purpose.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nexxo
And how many of them use the information on BSOD? How many can make sense of it?

Well that is something we will never know, but judging by how many results Google throws up i would say quiet a lot.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nexxo
IE6 doesn't even run properly on Windows XP, let alone in compatibility mode on 7 or 8.

Ok maybe IE6 was a bad example, but the fact still remains the same that a lot of machines in the corporate environment still use old, mashed together Frankenstein programs/data bases, or need to test things on older OS's.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nexxo
In such scenarios, there are other, better ways to deal with the problem: http://technet.microsoft.com/en-us/sysinternals/bb963902

Again why install a program to restore the functionality of previous OS's
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nexxo
Do you use NTFS or ReFS?

Ok, maybe i jumped the gun with that, but it is they way M$ are sending Windows.
Maybe ill come back and complaine about that one when Windows 9 comes out :)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nexxo
OK, I'm convinced. Roll back to Windows 7. Now. :p

Seriously, that's a problem?

Depends on who you are i guess, but you did ask for what is different from Windows 7 and that is.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nexxo
If you list 30 features that have been removed, and I can show that 16 of them are in fact still there, many others can easily be added and the rest is not actually missed, then I think that kind of sets a pattern. But if you want to call that "crippled", be my guest. Perhaps we should create Windows 7 Hyperbole Edition. :p

Sound good to me But seriously i count it different, 2 from the list are still there but the rest are all features that have been removed or force you to drop to the desktop thus defeating the point in running Windows8.
And just in case i need to say it again, Why should you have to install all these programs to bring back functionality that was available in the previous version ?
Also i cant see many large corporation wanting to install all these third party programs just so there employees can do there job.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nexxo
I'm not trying to argue that the contrast between Metro and desktop is a smooth one. I agree that the flips back and forth can at times feel a bit jarring. I also think it is worth persevering because rough around the edges as it is now, it has a lot of potential and will get smoother (Ubuntu Touch shows some interesting alternatives for the Tablet-Desktop transition, but one that creates some new problems in itself). Arguing for going back to Windows 7 is self-defeating. Vista had many flaws, but does that mean Microsoft should have gone back to Windows XP? Instead it went forward and created Windows 7.

And i agree with you, it is not a smooth one but i feel M$ brought this about them selves, When they removed the start menu from the betas and by not wanting to let people choose
how they use it, like i said many posts ago if they had a simple choice on first install of using the new GUI or the old it would go a long way.

But sadly they decided to try and mash both the FSSM and the desktop together, and it just becomes jarring to use. IMHO they should have either removed the desktop altogether or not at all, as it is we have schizoid OS
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nexxo
What I am saying is that the Windows 8 desktop is not significantly different from the Windows 7 desktop. Click on Control Panel; use ALT+TAB; do what you did in Windows 7 and you get Windows 7 behaviour and results. Use desktop programs and you get a desktop experience.

See above :D And why use the desktop in Windows 8 if i can do that without any messing around on Windows 7.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nexxo
No, I said that I don't need to access the desktop for Tablet key functions. A "key function" for a Tablet would be to establish a WiFi connection, and I can do that from Metro.

As has been discussed what is and isn't a "key function" depends on the user, and you did originally ask what is different.
http://windows.microsoft.com/en-GB/windows-8/manage-wireless-network-profiles
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nexxo
I access the desktop when I want to do productivity tasks or hack the system on a deeper level than you'd do in casual Tablet use. Managing network drivers and their detailed configuration would fall under this.

Again this falls under the why does the system have to be modified to restore functionality previously available.
Nexxo 22nd February 2013, 21:33 Quote
If you want to use Windows 7, you are of course free to. I don't see a significant difference with Windows 8 from the desktop point of view. You don't want to install 3rd party programs? Dude, we've always installed 3rd party programs when we felt the standard functionality was not enough. We've done it since Windows 3.11. Suddenly, with Windows 8 that is a crime against the natural order of things.

Sorry, but that's where things are going. Look at the Google Chromebook Pixel: $1300,-- worth of Apple-standard high-res ultrabook goodness with the most simple, self-maintaining of OS ever. Because it's what most people want. It's not about us hackers anymore.
leexgx 23rd February 2013, 00:17 Quote
chromebook pixel is an waste of money for an very limited device, chrome book for £150-200 maybe, £1090 I can burn money on an apple laptop for that or high end laptop (running 7 :) )

windows 95 on wards with the stuff that was done it made sense, win8 not much main issue is hiding key functions from the user, but as your not at there level you just do not understand

I can't be bothered to join in your defence of win8 as you seem to love it so much, every person I have seen just find that windows 8 is not usable

how old are you any way
Nexxo 23rd February 2013, 00:26 Quote
I'm not sure my age has anything to do with this. Neither should you assume that I'm not a power user. Let's stay away from ad hominem attributions and stick to a rational debate of the pros and cons of Windows 8.

Chromebook Pixel is indeed crazy money. Yet Google perceives a niece in the market. I try to imagine what it is. Who wants a quality high-powered laptop but with a simple, fail-safe OS that effectively maintains and updates itself?

Why, most non-geek users do. People will pay good money for an iPad. In fact, such basic computing devices are massively outselling cheaper, more capable PCs. Why wouldn't they pay for a quality device with the power and form factor of a laptop, but the failsafe, hassle-free ease of an iPad? Chrome OS has some small but very significant fundamental flaws. However if they got fixed (and they found be, very easily), then I can see how it would be a real proposition to many people.
impar 23rd February 2013, 00:34 Quote
Greetings!

Nexxo, that level of... "commitment" displayed defending W8 can not be healthy in the long term.

PS:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nexxo
... stick to a rational debate of the pros and cons of Windows 8.
No longer sure that can be achieved.
Corky42 23rd February 2013, 02:25 Quote
In a ideal world there would be two versions of windows, one for touch friendly portable devices and a second one for desktops/corporate environments.

But my thinking is that as M$ tried this in the past with Windows CE/Windows Mobile and that didn't turn out to be the success they may have hoped for.
So i think they are now trying to leverage the success of there desktop OS to gain a foot hold in the ever growing tablet market.

But sadly IMHO they have done a bad job as Windows 8 seems to be a mish mash of both a desktop OS and a tablet/portable OS, neither working as well as people may have expected or hoped for.

So we have ended up with the FSSM suffering because at times you have to drop to the desktop due to (debatably ) missing features.
And the desktop environment suffers (again debatable ;)) because M$ wanted to make things simple to use for portable/touch devices.

Whether they manage to pull it of or not only time will tell, but looking at the figures things don't look good. as according to figures some %40 of all PC's are still running XP.
My guess is that most of those are in the corporate environment as steam only shows %5-10 XP usage, and i cant see the Corporate environment wanting to make the jump from XP to 8.
Nexxo 23rd February 2013, 10:20 Quote
Yup, but XP usage was the same when Windows 7 was the latest thing. Didn't entice those companies to switch either. At work we have Dells with Windows 7 stickers running XP (talking about crimes against the natural order of things).

I agree that the mash between Metro and desktop is a bit clumsy, although it works well on my tablet and well enough on my desktop PC, where I stay mainly in desktop and notice no functional difference with Windows Vista --except that it's a whole lot faster.

The reason that I'm good with Windows 8 is that I can see the potential. It needs more work, but if Microsoft can go from Windows XP (or indeed Millenium) to Windows 7, then it can significantly improve on this paradigm too. I think that you're all being too anxious, too catastrophic.

And if you still don't like it by next year, there's always Ubuntu Touch to try out.
Quote:
Originally Posted by impar
Nexxo, that level of... "commitment" displayed defending W8 can not be healthy in the long term.
And such hate is almost like belief. :p
Quote:
Originally Posted by impar
No longer sure that can be achieved.
All the more reason then to decide Windows 8 is like Marmite: you either love it or hate it, and it's all down to personal taste.
Corky42 24th February 2013, 10:07 Quote
It seems even though M$ said there would not be a public beta of Blue, they may have changed there mind.
http://news.softpedia.com/news/Windows-Blue-Public-Beta-Coming-332040.shtml
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