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Microsoft simplifies EULA language, ditches grace period

Microsoft simplifies EULA language, ditches grace period

The upcoming Windows 8 release from Microsoft will include a plain-English EULA, but also ditches the traditional 30-day grace period for activation.

Microsoft's Windows 8 will come with a completely revised and easier to understand end-user licence agreement (EULA,) but not all the changes are to the benefit of the consumer.

End-user licence agreements, also known as 'that thing you click 'Agree' on without reading,' are one of the biggest banes of modern computing. Often hidden until software has already been purchased, EULAs are made up of frequently dozens - if not hundreds - of pages of densely-packed legalese which seek to indemnify the software's creator against any and all claims while simultaneously robbing the user of legitimate rights including the right to re-sell the product or make back-up copies.

Microsoft's move to change this scenario, in which the user blindly clicks on the 'Agree' button and prays to whatever deity he or she holds dear that it wasn't a mistake and they haven't just signed away their first-born, has been rightly applauded. An analysis of the changes from ZDNet show that Microsoft has ditched the difficult-to-understand lawyerspeak for plain English in an effort to ensure its users understand the restrictions being placed upon them.

However, these restrictions - while being significantly easier to understand - are also more onerous than in previous releases of the operating system. Chief among the 'rights' no cast aside is the ability to install a copy of Windows without entering a licence key. With Windows 7 and prior releases, the licence key entry portion of the installation process could be skipped. Should the user choose to do so, the operating system would work as normal for 30 days, after which the entry of a licence key and activation with Microsoft's digital rights management (DRM) servers would be required.

For many, it was a handy way to try the features of a new Windows version out without spending any money, or check legacy software for compatibility. The 30-day grace period, however, is no more: installations of Windows 8 now require the licence key to be inserted at install, or the system will go no further.

The requirement for a key will affect the Retail, System Builder and Upgrade editions of Windows 8, while the pre-installed original equipment manufacturer (OEM) releases will reach the customer pre-activated as has been usual in the past.

64 Comments

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ChaosDefinesOrder 21st August 2012, 11:03 Quote
I can totally understand why they are doing that: 30 days to try the OS.... or 30 days to download, install and run the crack or keygen program or spoof the license check

Can't install or run a keygen during the installation process...
Zinfandel 21st August 2012, 11:54 Quote
Who's going to track and crack Windows 8? It'd be like breaking into a house when you know all that's inside is someone with a machete.
DXR_13KE 21st August 2012, 12:11 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by ChaosDefinesOrder
Can't install or run a keygen during the installation process...

No need, just turn of the internet, input the code, crack. As usual.
Shirty 21st August 2012, 12:21 Quote
Yep, this won't affect piracy one bit. Although the ease and benefits of using a pirated OS are somewhat limited these days anyway. Better to just stump up - it's not that expensive anyway.
Cei 21st August 2012, 12:50 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by Zinfandel
Who's going to track and crack Windows 8? It'd be like breaking into a house when you know all that's inside is someone with a machete.

Or breaking in to find the toilet has flooded the whole house.
SighMoan 21st August 2012, 13:09 Quote
Sooo negative in here. I think it's a good move that they are sorting out their EULA. I hope this leads others to do the same.
r3loaded 21st August 2012, 13:13 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by ChaosDefinesOrder
I can totally understand why they are doing that: 30 days to try the OS.... or 30 days to download, install and run the crack or keygen program or spoof the license check

Can't install or run a keygen during the installation process...
All this will mean for me is that I'll have to put in a pirate key off the internet, then await the release on MSDN AA before I put my legit key in.
Silent_Raider 21st August 2012, 13:53 Quote
Aside from pirating, I think this is going to disable the trick of buying an upgrade version of Windows and doing a full install on a clean drive :(
schmidtbag 21st August 2012, 15:45 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by shirty
Yep, this won't affect piracy one bit. Although the ease and benefits of using a pirated OS are somewhat limited these days anyway. Better to just stump up - it's not that expensive anyway.

What are you talking about? I've used pirated windows 7 basically since it came out and haven't yet needed to reinstall. To me, piracy is more of a principal. Linux in most ways seems to be better than Windows (for my purposes) in nearly every way imagineable, with the exception of playing games (which I don't do often), equivalent GPU support (which doesn't matter if I don't play games), and setting up surround sound with just ALSA. To me, its stupid to pay for an OS that I find worse than a free one, especially when I use it much less often than linux. I wouldn't mind paying for linux, but the only variants you pay for don't interest me because they're geared more toward businesses than home users.

I do the same thing with games - I'd rather pay $120 for a bunch of indie games than $60 for another COD, even if I would find the COD game enjoyable. COD today is made strictly for profit and nothing else; there is almost no ambition or creativity in the production of those games and I actually feel like buying it is the wrong thing to do since it's games like that which are destroying the gaming market.
Gareth Halfacree 21st August 2012, 15:51 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by schmidtbag
What are you talking about? I've used pirated windows 7 basically since it came out and haven't yet needed to reinstall. To me, piracy is more of a principal. Linux in most ways seems to be better than Windows (for my purposes) in nearly every way imagineable, with the exception of playing games (which I don't do often), equivalent GPU support (which doesn't matter if I don't play games), and setting up surround sound with just ALSA. To me, its stupid to pay for an OS that I find worse than a free one, especially when I use it much less often than linux.
Congratulations - you've just made a strong argument for using Linux. What you *haven't* made is any kind of argument in favour of piracy.

I prefer Burger King burgers to McDonald's burgers. That doesn't give me the right to walk into McDonald's and demand a free burger, nor does the fact that Burger King has a 50%-off sale give me the right to demand a McDonald's burger at the same price.

If you don't want to pay for Windows, don't use it. If you want to use Windows, pay for it. It's really that simple.
Shirty 21st August 2012, 15:54 Quote
What am I talking about? I'm talking (like an adult) about the fact that Microsoft take a much more proactive stance on piracy these days.

I won't get into a debate that's already been done to death on these and other forums, but generally my motto is that if you want to use something that someone else has made, you pay them for it. No discussion.

Whatever your misguided sense of entitlement may tell you otherwise, I promise that you won't win any friends on here by boasting about how you pirate Windows 7 because you think it's **** but it's also a necessary evil for playing games.

Or what Gareth said :D
schmidtbag 21st August 2012, 15:59 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gareth Halfacree
Congratulations - you've just made a strong argument for using Linux. What you *haven't* made is any kind of argument in favour of piracy.

I prefer Burger King burgers to McDonald's burgers. That doesn't give me the right to walk into McDonald's and demand a free burger, nor does the fact that Burger King has a 50%-off sale give me the right to demand a McDonald's burger at the same price.

If you don't want to pay for Windows, don't use it. If you want to use Windows, pay for it. It's really that simple.

I understand your point but that tends to be less relevant when you start comparing:
* The product's usefulness or need of the product
* Something you have that needs the product
* Price proportions

If the difference is $5, who honestly cares? For argument's sake, lets say that linux is worth $40. Why would I pay more than double that for something that is worse in terms of price- performance-features?

Also, stealing physical items is VERY different from stealing something digital. If I just demanded a free burger, that's 1 less burger they have and need to pay for. If I'm copying Windows from a torrent, you can argue that the developers are getting 1 less sale, but its 1 sale they probably wouldn't have got in the first place - at least they didn't specifically lose anything. I think I remember reading a study showing that most pirates wouldn't pay for the product they steal in the first place.


@shirty
MS takes a more proactive stance on piracy these days? What a joke. They had that same stance when it came to Windows 7 and they were all proud of their horrible, proven-ineffective method of antipiracy when the OS was successfully cracked BEFORE IT WAS ON THE SHELVES.

If a company sincerely cares about making something un-pirateable, they ought to actually do something about it.

Based on your motto, I'm sure you're one of those people who are completely blinded by thoughts like "you get what you pay for", which in the software world is obscenely false on so many levels. If you don't feel that way, well, then you'd understand my motive for pirating windows when I'm not a piracy activist. Also, if this has been debated before on these forums, then your idea of "winning friends" is wrong - the only difference is I don't pirate stuff just because I want it for free, I actually put thought into my decision. If I can't afford something, I don't buy it. If a shitty game like COD comes out that I don't think deserves my money, I don't even waste my time pirating it. Windows is pretty much the 1 and only thing I pirate, and I don't pirate it to use it. Whenever I'm in windows I might only be spending 2 minutes in the actual OS, otherwise I'm in a game. I'm not paying $100+ for a slow GUI to get into another one.
Gareth Halfacree 21st August 2012, 16:07 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by schmidtbag
If the difference is $5, who honestly cares? For argument's sake, lets say that linux is worth $40. Why would I pay more than double that for something that is worse in terms of price- performance-features?
Because that's how much it costs. I could buy a car for £8,000 or I could buy a Bugatti Veyron for £500,000 (or whatever ridiculous price a Bugatti Veyron costs these days - I can't be bothered to look it up.) The Bugatti Veyron, for my needs, would be *worse* than the Vauxhall Astra or whatever: far higher running costs, much smaller luggage space, ridiculous insurance costs. I'd also use it a lot less, because of the fuel costs and the desire not to have it get nicked.

By your logic - a more expensive yet demonstrably less suitable product I will use less than a cheaper, more suitable product - I should be able to have a free Bugatti Veyron, right - or at least buy one for £8,000?
Quote:
Originally Posted by schmidtbag
Also, stealing physical items is VERY different from stealing something digital. If I just demanded a free burger, that's 1 less burger they have and need to pay for. If I'm copying Windows from a torrent, you can argue that the developers are getting 1 less sale, but its 1 sale they probably wouldn't have got in the first place - at least they didn't specifically lose anything. I think I remember reading a study showing that most pirates wouldn't pay for the product they steal in the first place.

Forget the strawman of physical versus virtual and answer the question: are you enjoying the benefits of a product which has a monetary value attached without paying that value? Are you enjoying the benefits of the work a company has put - time, money and effort - into its product without giving that company anything back?

Then you, sir, are a thief. You can dress it up how you like - "it's just zeros and ones" - but you're a thief, plain and simple. This is not something to be proud of, but something of which you should feel a deep-seated shame. If I were to benefit from your hard work without compensation - let's say you wrote a program and sold it for £5, a program which was demonstrably less suitable for a given task than a free program, but had some feature I desired so I used your program anyway - would you be happy if I copied it for free? I mean, I could have used a free program, so no harm no foul right?

What if my friends do the same? My friends' friends? Their friends? What if there are now over a million copies of your program doing the rounds, and so far you've received no compensation whatsoever. Still happy?
schmidtbag 21st August 2012, 16:21 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gareth Halfacree
Because that's how much it costs. I could buy a car for £8,000 or I could buy a Bugatti Veyron for £500,000 (or whatever ridiculous price a Bugatti Veyron costs these days - I can't be bothered to look it up.) The Bugatti Veyron, for my needs, would be *worse* than the Vauxhall Astra or whatever: far higher running costs, much smaller luggage space, ridiculous insurance costs. I'd also use it a lot less, because of the fuel costs and the desire not to have it get nicked.
Right but the difference is you don't have a compelling reason to ever use it aside from showing off. And again, the perspective changes when it comes to real physical objects.
Quote:
By your logic - a more expensive yet demonstrably less suitable product I will use less than a cheaper, more suitable product - I should be able to have a free Bugatti Veyron, right - or at least buy one for £8,000?
No, because the more expensive product offers NO benefit of any kind that you would actually use or care about. You could argue the seats in the Veyron are better, but with the money you save of not getting that car, you could just buy better ones for the Astra. If you do find it to be more useful and worth its value, great, I'm not saying everyone should follow my opinion. I'm not saying Windows should be given out for free either. Even if I were more successful than all of MS, I wouldn't go up to them and say "you should really make windows free".
Quote:
Forget the strawman of physical versus virtual and answer the question: are you enjoying the benefits of a product which has a monetary value attached without paying that value? Are you enjoying the benefits of the work a company has put - time, money and effort - into its product without giving that company anything back?
Generally speaking, no. But it'd be pretty ignorant of me to not give them credit for some of their work. HOWEVER, such things that I think they did a good job on, are also well-done on pretty much any other modern OS including Mac. The only difference is MS will make it proprietary.
Quote:
Then you, sir, are a thief. You can dress it up how you like - "it's just zeros and ones" - but you're a thief, plain and simple. This is not something to be proud of, but something of which you should feel a deep-seated shame.
I didn't say it wasn't stealing, that's why its called piracy.... I also didn't say I was proud of this, but it isn't shameful either. Do you consider it a proud thing when you buy something that doesn't do a good job at anything it is supposed to do? No, many people would actually return the product.
Quote:
If I were to benefit from your hard work without compensation - let's say you wrote a a program and sold it for £5, a program which was demonstrably less suitable for a given task than a free program, but had some feature I desired so I used your program anyway - would you be happy if I copied it for free? I mean, I could have used a free program, so no harm no foul right?
At a price value that low, I'd probably pay for it. But, I have yet to see that situation come up.
Quote:
What if my friends do the same? My friends' friends? Their friends? What if there are now over a million copies of your program doing the rounds, and so far you've received no compensation whatsoever. Still happy?
Well, lets say that we're comparing CD burning programs since those seem to fall under this category a lot. If I made a CD burning program that offered 1 nice feature the others didn't have, I'm still being an ass of a developer for asking money for something that has been done a bajillion times. It'd be a lot better if I were to be employed by a company that already made a CD burning program and I made my contribution. I understand people need to make money, but you don't DESERVE money for doing crappy/unoriginal work.

Putting a fee to a new product that is just like another one is, IMO, just as bad as pirating.
GoodBytes 21st August 2012, 16:25 Quote
@schmidtbag, saying that you are using an illegal software, let a lone Microsoft software, in a public forum, where everyone can see, including search engine isn't wise at all.

Also, I, and I hope and encourage everyone here to do the same, to not help in any way people using pirated copy. It waste everyone times as most issues they have are due to hacks and cracks they or the hacker put, let alone possibly rootkits, and can't be solved. And a thief should not get any help. You don't help a thief moving your own goods in your home out to his truck, nor your neighbors, and and sure ain't going to answer his phone calls asking you to help to hook up the stolen stuff.

schmidtbag you made it into my black list.

Microsoft software are sure expensive, but engineers costs a lot of money.. and I mean A LOT of money. Why? Because they are few, and among those few, only few of these are actually really good, getting a degree in the field is very difficult (if you go to University in these programs, you can really see the funnel effect, where at first you are in huge classes, and at the end of your 3-4 year program, you are less than the number of student that what you were in high school).

The average wage (varies depending on where you are of course) is about 60-70k per year. A non junior is about 100k per year. Doing something like a graphic card or Windows, cost a BILLIONS! I do know for fact that Nvidia easily has 1500 to 2000 engineers working on a new graphic card, depending if it s a new architecture and what the company can afford. Multiply that by 100k (let's say it's the average), multiply by 3 years, and you have a nice number. Now add administration, HR, testing, drivers development, software development (dev tools, and such), support team for dev and manufacturers, website, building maintenance, resource maintenance (powerful servers to run simulations and such which constantly needs upgrading), oh and lets' not forget marketing. No wonder an Nvidia graphic card while costs maybe 50-70$ to produce, cost 300-500$, and not make much of a profit at the end. Microsoft is A LOT bigger than Nvidia, and more people are working on Windows than Nvidia. And I think these people need food on a table.

Most people working on Linux, are working at these big software/hardware companies. They are doing this for fun, because their job is fun. It's you playing games. But instead of playing games, they work on open source software. Mostly as a big favor. If you don't buy Windows, or wtv software and start stealing hardware, then you have no more software developers/engineers. So you have no more Linux, and no more open source.


Plus Microsoft does SO MUCH, that no other company can even dream about doing in helping making Windows more affordable.
-> Upgrade edition (and now only 40$)
-> Upgrade edition works all the way back from XP.
-> Student special
-> Pre-order special
-> MSDNAA

And you are still too cheap to get it. You have 0 excuse! None!
You are a thief, plain and simple. While you don't steal a physical good, you do prevent people getting food on a table, and they are the people that make everything that uses electricity (in this case) to make anything (robots, machines, appliances, entertainment, etc.)
Gareth Halfacree 21st August 2012, 16:27 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by schmidtbag
<snip self-justification>
Wow. Just... wow.

This is actually a very interesting topic for me, for the following reason: my current books are published using DRM and only on platforms where DRM is available - Google Play, iBooks and Amazon Kindle. The reason the publisher gives for this is to help reduce - not prevent, because prevention is impossible - piracy.

My next book is going to be published on as many platforms as possible, all without DRM. My reasoning for this is that DRM is bloody awkward and often prevents legitimate customers from doing perfectly reasonable things - you can't easily read a DRM'd ePub on Linux, for example.

I decided to do this because I figured that the majority of people are, at heart, decent, and that when faced with a reasonable price for a reasonable product they wouldn't hesitate to pay. Your response has convinced me that this isn't the case - that there are people who will come up with *any* reason to justify their theft. "There are other books available." "It's more than I want to pay, but I still want it." "I won't give you any money, but hey - kudos on your other books, they're great."

I'll most likely still publish sans-DRM, because that's the right thing to do - but I'll be doing so now with a grimace on my face.

Now, back on topic: how about those plain-English EULAs, hey?
steveo_mcg 21st August 2012, 16:41 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gareth Halfacree

I'll most likely still publish sans-DRM, because that's the right thing to do - but I'll be doing so now with a grimace on my face.

If the self deluding justification above was a revelation to you then frankly I'm shocked.

Folk like schmidtbag are not your customer and never will be, you'll never sell a product to them if it or anything broadly similar can be had free. There isn't much point in giving his ilk a second thought, inconveniencing real customers with cash money to spend is a sure-fire way to lose sales on the other hand. I'll buy (very few) DRM products with a grimace but I'll be much happier buying with out. Normal people (Muggles) will buy stuff however its packaged but if they fall foul of the DRM they'll tell every one they meet how appalling your product is.

Not just you obviously but publishers in general.
schmidtbag 21st August 2012, 16:42 Quote
@forums
*sigh* It appears that many people here are as arrogant as they think I am. I'm not endoring piracy. I don't help others pirate. I don't suggest piracy. I don't really pirate anything but Windows. I'm not some random asshole who just pirates something because I can. You'll find that I have a lot less pirated content than probably half of you on these forums, whether that be software, music, or movies.

If you really feel like blacklisting me because you generalize me under the same category as other pirates, then fine, that becomes 1 less person for me to explain myself to.

@Gareth
It is unfortunate that many things like books, music, and movies are so easy to pirate. They are something that is unrealistically difficult to prevent, or even reduce. I think many DRMs like Steam do a very good job at stopping piracy and I support their efforts.

You seem to fall under the same problem as goodbytes - both of you hear what you want to hear and interpret what I say as automatically being bad just because there's 1 evil in it. Your comment about "There are other books available. It's more than I want to pay, but I still want it." is being nitpickity, generalized, and misses my point. However, there are actually a LOT of people out there who really do think that way and do steal something, just because they can, and I don't approve of those people. The way you're interpeting my decision is just as bad as Catholics who hate gays with a firey passion just because the gay lifestyle doesn't produce offspring. Again, I don't endorse piracy - I am against it, especially for independent creators. I just see nothing about Windows I find worth the value it is priced at.
Shirty 21st August 2012, 16:45 Quote
Windows is actually remarkably excellent value when you consider the billions of man hours that have gone into the intricacies of the programming, evolved over decades. It is a remarkable product. Just take your hand out of your pocket and pay the damn £100 quid or so it costs. Assuming you upgrade every 4 years, you're paying £2 a month for the ability to do everything that Windows allows you to do.

I'm not holier than thou - I may well have had a few pirated copies of Windows 98 when I was a teenager because I couldn't afford to buy an OS at the time , but as an adult I consider copyright theft to be akin to taking food out of someone's mouth, fuel out of someone's car or beer money out of someone's pocket. It's just not cricket. If there was a 100% chance of a six moth jail sentence for every owner of a cracked copy of a Microsoft product, then I'd wager there'd be a lot of people in prison for a short time, and not a lot of pirated copies in circulation thereafter.

I don't particularly like bars of chocolate, but it's not really fair on the shopkeeper if I keep taking them off his shelf to try all the different flavours without paying for them. Caught once I might get away with a slap on the wrist, but repeated offences (every time you use your PC in your case) are just a step too far.

Oh, and Gareth - I still won't read the EULA
steveo_mcg 21st August 2012, 16:46 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gareth Halfacree

Now, back on topic: how about those plain-English EULAs, hey?

Its probably not such great news really. Normal EULA's are basically unenforceable in a UK court because they are considered an unfair contract (at least in Scotland), the company has an army of lawyers setting the terms you just have your self and cant be expected to read it all, thus praying to your deity that you've not just signed over your house.

If the new terms have in plain english anything you don't agree with you can either return the software (good luck) grin and click agree, depending how simple the terms are they EULA may actually become enforceable.
Gareth Halfacree 21st August 2012, 16:48 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by schmidtbag
You seem to fall under the same problem as goodbytes - both of you hear what you want to hear and interpret what I say as automatically being bad just because there's 1 evil in it.
That's how evil works. Here's a rather nice analogy that applies in this situation: if I take a whizz in a cask of wine, it's now a cask of whizz. Doesn't matter what the relative volumes of whizz to wine are, does it? The presence of the whizz ruins the wine.

Likewise, the fact that you're stealing software means that you're in the wrong. I don't like Windows, so I don't use it. Going back to your "people would return a defective item" justification: yes, they would, and would therefore stop using said item. You've repeatedly said that it's OK for you to steal Windows because you rarely use it and you don't like it. Here's another way of looking at it: surely it's OK for you to stop using Windows altogether because you rarely use it and don't like it? If you use it so infrequently that you can justify not paying for it, that wouldn't inconvenience you, surely?
Quote:
Originally Posted by schmidtbag
Your comment about "There are other books available. It's more than I want to pay, but I still want it." is being nitpickity, generalized, and misses my point.
I'm sorry, I thought your point was "it's okay to steal Windows because I don't really like it and there are other options which are better." Did I misinterpret?
Quote:
Originally Posted by schmidtbag
The way you're interpeting my decision is just as bad as Catholics who hate gays with a firey passion just because the gay lifestyle doesn't produce offspring.
Ahahahahahaaa! Wow, I've gotta say, that's is the *best* strawman I've ever seen. "The fact you don't agree with me stealing other people's hard work means you're as bad as a homophobe! HOMOPHOBE!"
schmidtbag 21st August 2012, 16:51 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by shirty
Windows is actually remarkably excellent value when you consider the billions of man hours that have gone into the intricacies of the programming, evolved over decades. It is a remarkable product. Just take your hand out of your pocket and pay the damn £100 quid or so it costs. Assuming you upgrade every 4 years, you're paying £2 a month for the ability to do everything that Windows allows you to do.
Again, that falls under the "you get what you pay for category" which is a false philosophy in the software world. Put aside 3rd party developers (such as driver developers) and windows doesn't offer a whole lot more than other OSes. Their developers didn't work any longer or harder than the devs of other OSes.
Quote:
I don't particularly like bars of chocolate, but it's not really fair on the shopkeeper if I keep taking them off his shelf to try all the different flavours without paying for them. Caught once I might get away with a slap on the wrist, but repeated offences (every time you use your PC in your case) are just a step too far.
*sigh* again, stealing something physical is very different from copying something virtual. That's like comparing shooting someone in the arm versus calling someone something very insulting.
GoodBytes 21st August 2012, 16:51 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gareth Halfacree

Your response has convinced me that this isn't the case - that there are people who will come up with *any* reason to justify their theft. "There are other books available." "It's more than I want to pay, but I still want it." "I won't give you any money, but hey - kudos on your other books, they're great.

Sorry to bring this topic back to its side line, but remember World of Goo, This excellent game, super well reviewed game, that was 10$, and even less in some medium, was pirated like no tomorrow. The studio decided to have the game be sold from "pay as much as you want, starting for a penny". The game got even more pirated.
Shirty 21st August 2012, 16:51 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gareth Halfacree
"The fact you don't agree with me stealing other people's hard work means you're as bad as a homophobe! HOMOPHOBE!"

I can feel Godwin's Law looming just on the other side of the horizon...
schmidtbag 21st August 2012, 16:59 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gareth Halfacree
That's how evil works. Here's a rather nice analogy that applies in this situation: if I take a whizz in a cask of wine, it's now a cask of whizz. Doesn't matter what the relative volumes of whizz to wine are, does it? The presence of the whizz ruins the wine.
Ever heard of distillaton?
Quote:
You've repeatedly said that it's OK for you to steal Windows because you rarely use it and you don't like it. Here's another way of looking at it: surely it's OK for you to stop using Windows altogether because you rarely use it and don't like it? If you use it so infrequently that you can justify not paying for it, that wouldn't inconvenience you, surely?
We're running in circles again - Windows actually serves a purpose for me, just a very indirect one. As soon as I can ditch Windows entirely, I will and I don't bother pirating it again. I would gladly stop using it altogether when I get the chance.
Quote:
I'm sorry, I thought your point was "it's okay to steal Windows because I don't really like it and there are other options which are better." Did I misinterpret?
No - this proves my point how you hear things the way you want. From the very beginning I said that I will pirate Windows because there are better options. I never suggested this applies to everyone or should apply to everyone. My opinions are not everyone's.
Quote:
"The fact you don't agree with me stealing other people's hard work means you're as bad as a homophobe! HOMOPHOBE!"
If it were really hard work, I wouldn't feel the need to pirate it. MS devs are for the most part just drones listening to some management person who thinks his ideas are better. I'm sure many MS devs are skilled and hard workers, but if they really had their way, Windows would be a much better OS.

Keep in mind I don't have this same gripe with Macs. I personally find the OS useless to me, but I think its a nice OS and I don't find it deserving of piracy.
GoodBytes 21st August 2012, 16:59 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by schmidtbag
Again, that falls under the "you get what you pay for category" which is a false philosophy in the software world. Put aside 3rd party developers (such as driver developers) and windows doesn't offer a whole lot more than other OSes. Their developers didn't work any longer or harder than the devs of other OSes.
Lies. Because the people that make Windows and other software, are the people that work on Linux as well. They need food on the table.
Quote:

*sigh* again, stealing something physical is very different from copying something virtual. That's like comparing shooting someone in the arm versus calling someone something very insulting.
One is physical damage and the other is psychological damage. Both hurt just as much, in fact psychological damage hurts even more, leading to sever depression, and in some cases have people commit suicide. If a person comes to you and insults you, and go "Ok wtv", and you move a long, now some one else does the same... and more, and more... and now everyone around you non stop insults you. No mater how "manly" you are, you will crack and possibly cry (normal), and if it continues, you'll fall into sever depression where medication intervention can't help.

Now you were saying that stealing software is like insulting someone, well the consequences are far worse. No money coming in, that means no one will study in such field, meaning no open source software, meaning no more electronic devices of any kind, not even medical, as they are no software developers. So in the end of the day it's thief.

Based on your reactions I can see that you did this kind of stuff for a very long time, and now accustom as being the norm, this is wrong.
Gareth Halfacree 21st August 2012, 17:05 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by schmidtbag
Ever heard of distillaton?
You distil whizz? Wow - never buy me a shot of whisky.
Quote:
Originally Posted by schmidtbag
We're running in circles again - Windows actually serves a purpose for me, just a very indirect one.
SO PAY FOR IT.
Quote:
Originally Posted by schmidtbag
No - this proves my point how you hear things the way you want. From the very beginning I said that I will pirate Windows because there are better options. I never suggested this applies to everyone or should apply to everyone. My opinions are not everyone's.
I never said they were - I simply said that you justify your theft in that manner. Which you do. So, it turns out that I didn't misinterpret. Thanks for the clarification.
Quote:
Originally Posted by schmidtbag
If it were really hard work, I wouldn't feel the need to pirate it. MS devs are for the most part just drones listening to some management person who thinks his ideas are better. I'm sure many MS devs are skilled and hard workers, but if they really had their way, Windows would be a much better OS.
Christ. I literally cannot comprehend how your mind works. I mean, literally. These are people, with families, and houses, and mortgages, and the same hopes and fears and dreams as you. These aren't just faceless drones - these are REAL PEOPLE. That comment smacks of sociopathy, which I won't accuse you of because it's a horrible condition but still, dude. Damn.

I would ask one tiny favour before I stop this off-topic trainwreck: answer the following questions with just "yes" or "no," without saying "rarely," "sometimes," or "but":
Do you use Windows?
Have you paid for Windows?
schmidtbag 21st August 2012, 17:07 Quote
[QUOTE=GoodBytes;3140615]Lies. Because the people that make Windows and other software, are the people that work on Linux as well. They need food on the table.
...what? Most people who develop for linux are not MS employees. How many times do I have to say that I have no problem with financially supporting other software?

Also, I thought you blacklisted me.
Quote:
One is physical damage and the other is psychological damage. Both hurt just as much, in fact psychological damage hurts even more, leading to sever depression, and in some cases have people commit suicide.
That still doesn't change my point. Typically the type of person who would end up committing suicide due to an insult would end up being a small company, and for the n'th time, I don't support pirating their work.
Quote:
No money coming in, that means no one will study in such field, meaning no open source software, meaning no more electronic devices of any kind, not even medical, as they are no software developers. It's a circle that you are breaking by stealing software.
Yeah, like MS's researchers really come up with anything revolutionary. When was the last time MS came up with a major completely original idea that was entirely theirs (not a 3rd party's) and was wildly?

The world of software doesn't revolve around MS. It used to, but it doesn't anymore.
schmidtbag 21st August 2012, 17:13 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gareth Halfacree
SO PAY FOR IT.
Well since you asked so nicely...
Quote:
Christ. I literally cannot comprehend how your mind works. I mean, literally. These are people, with families, and houses, and mortgages, and the same hopes and fears and dreams as you. These aren't just faceless drones - these are REAL PEOPLE. That comment smacks of sociopathy, which I won't accuse you of because it's a horrible condition but still, dude. Damn.
So if they care, they'll do a good job and stand up for themselves. When that happens, I'll pay. They're clearly doing what someone else says just for a really high paycheck.
Quote:
I would ask one tiny favour before I stop this off-topic trainwreck: answer the following questions with just "yes" or "no," without saying "rarely," "sometimes," or "but":
Do you use Windows?
Have you paid for Windows?
If you had the money to get that Veyron, would that be considered worth every penny of your money if you never drive it except maybe once a month, but instead you drive your Astra?
And yes, I have paid for windows before, more than once.
Fizzban 21st August 2012, 17:13 Quote
Dear lord...where is the report thread button? I swear piracy should be a banned topic like religion is.

You aint ever going to agree so stop derailing the thread, please.
Gareth Halfacree 21st August 2012, 17:16 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fizzban
Dear lord...where is the report thread button? I swear piracy should be a banned topic like religion is. You aint ever going to agree so stop derailing the thread, please.
Agreed. Putting on my bit-tech hat for a moment:

No more off-topic posts for or against piracy. From anyone. That includes you, Gareth Halfacree, you unrepentant swine you. Further off-topic posts will be deleted.
SMIFFYDUDE 21st August 2012, 17:32 Quote
EULA could be one sentence long, I'll still skip it.
Shirty 21st August 2012, 17:36 Quote
Off topic, but you'd better ban yourself for 24 hours Gareth. You've used a big font see?

Agreed though, and apologies that my post advocating the acquisition of Windows via legal means blew up into such a hackneyed debate.
modfx 21st August 2012, 17:41 Quote
Schmidtbag: you are either a; a silly boy (boasting about pirating software on a public forum, Srsly?) or b; a very silly boy, which seems much more likely. Please accept my well meant advice to stop being daft, there's a good lad, say no more, shake hands, what you say old chap?

Personally, I'm not too fussed about the loss of activation period because I always do it right away, a new operating system isn't really that much of a big deal to me as long as my games work, I run on 7 but would quite happily have stayed on XP, except that 80quid really isn't much to pay for something that is in constant use and will last for a couple of years. EULAs do need to be simplified, what's the point of laying out t&c's if no one actually reads them.
RichCreedy 21st August 2012, 17:50 Quote
they just need to change the law, to piracy equals theft, so theft charges should be brought against pirates.

on topic, even easy to read eulas will be ignored as people want to use the software, they will just click accept. and deal with or not as the case may be, the consiquences when they arrive.
modfx 21st August 2012, 17:55 Quote
Thanks Nexxo, was just about to reword that but you beat me to it XD


You guys seen Human CentiPad btw?
GoodBytes 21st August 2012, 20:19 Quote
http://arstechnica.com/information-technology/2012/08/windows-8s-new-licenses-simpler-saner-better/
Quote:

Special licenses for enterprises, OEMs, and upgraders all exist, and each license has its own different set of restrictions and requirements.

[...]
Each license now includes a plain-English introductory section, in a question-and-answer format, to explain to users what is and isn't permitted per the license's terms.
[...]
Full retail licenses are gone, and the standard retail license will be a simple upgrade license. This isn't altogether surprising. The vast majority of people buying Windows at retail fall into one of two categories: they either have a PC they wish to upgrade, or they're building a new PC. If they're in the former category, they're almost always already running Windows and hence already in possession of a Windows license. As such, they qualify for an upgrade.
[...]

It's the System Builder license that has changed. The System Builder license is still the license that small OEMs will use on the machines that they build and sell. However, it has a new usage right: the Personal Use license. With the Personal Use right, end users can buy a System Builder license and use it on a machine they self-build, or as an operating system installed on its own partition in a dual-boot configuration, or in a virtual machine.

In this way, the System Builder license now becomes a good fit for three usage scenarios that formerly required full-price retail licenses: the self-builder, the dual booter, and the virtualizer.
faugusztin 21st August 2012, 21:28 Quote
The issue is with the fact that there is now no version for a situation, when you build your own PC and change a motherboard few times before new Windows comes out. Or is this situation covered in the new System Builder licence (that if it is still your own PC, but with motherboard changes, then it is ok to reuse the licence) ?
GoodBytes 21st August 2012, 21:38 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by faugusztin
The issue is with the fact that there is now no version for a situation, when you build your own PC and change a motherboard few times before new Windows comes out. Or is this situation covered in the new System Builder licence (that if it is still your own PC, but with motherboard changes, then it is ok to reuse the licence) ?

We have to wait and see more details, but it does say that for System Builders license, that it you can install it on a virtual machine... so I assume it won't be tied to the motherboard. We have to wait and see for more details to know for sure.
faugusztin 21st August 2012, 21:44 Quote
What i meant that for example i completely overhauled my system and except the CPU, SSD and fan controller everything else is new and the old computer doesn't exist anymore. With my W7 retail licence, i can easily install it, the only annoying thing will be the phone activation.

With that W8 System Builder licence, who knows if i could reuse it in same way as i can do it with my W7 retail licence now.
GoodBytes 21st August 2012, 22:03 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by faugusztin
What i meant that for example i completely overhauled my system and except the CPU, SSD and fan controller everything else is new and the old computer doesn't exist anymore. With my W7 retail licence, i can easily install it, the only annoying thing will be the phone activation.

With that W8 System Builder licence, who knows if i could reuse it in same way as i can do it with my W7 retail licence now.

I understood you. But some times users changes virtual machine environments, so the activation system of Windows 8, sees a different motherboard. That is why I pointed that out. People here are using Windows 7 OEM's and they have no real problem beside the phone activation, they simply say that the original motherboard is no longer available. They are no techs on the other side of the phone, all they care about, is informing you that your license is for 1 PC only (unless you have Windows 7 Family Pack, which is for 3 PC's).

I haven't found the full EULA yet.. only segments, so I can't answer you for your question at 100%.
faugusztin 21st August 2012, 22:08 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by GoodBytes
It's not techs on the other side of the phone, all they care about, is informing you that your license is for 1 PC only (unless you have Windows 7 Family Pack, which is for 3 PC's).

There are humans on other side of the activation line ? I always pressed buttons with numbers for a activation bot, never talked to human on MS activation line :).
GoodBytes 21st August 2012, 22:15 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by faugusztin
There are humans on other side of the activation line ? I always pressed buttons with numbers for a activation bot, never talked to human on MS activation line :).

You have a person talk to you if the automatic system fails, or all staff are busy (or the reverse, where the automatic system is busy, I don't know), or you have trouble with the process.
pbryanw 21st August 2012, 22:29 Quote
I see The Verge have given a promotional price of $69.99 for Windows 8 Pro from "a source familiar with Microsoft's plans".

If that works out to around £50 I can see there being a hard decision on whether to get an upgrade or pay the bit extra for the full license (providing this source is correct).
SexyHyde 21st August 2012, 22:31 Quote
I have had to use a keygen crack on two Win7 PC's with legitimate licence codes due to not having the correct install media and so not being able to get it working without using a keygen. It says something when you can spent around 10 hours trying to do the DRM way, give up and use the pirate way and its all sorted in a matter of minutes. It really narked me that i had to do it too.

Louis C K (American comedian) went the DRM free download route against all advice and went on to make a lot of money. theres a lot of people like me that will support 'DRM free' artists even if they arent fully interested in their product just to help send a message.
faugusztin 21st August 2012, 22:35 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by SexyHyde
I have had to use a keygen crack on two Win7 PC's with legitimate licence codes due to not having the correct install media and so not being able to get it working without using a keygen. It says something when you can spent around 10 hours trying to do the DRM way, give up and use the pirate way and its all sorted in a matter of minutes. It really narked me that i had to do it too.

And now please tell my why can't you find it ?

http://forums.bit-tech.net/showpost.php?p=3046957&postcount=3
rollo 21st August 2012, 22:51 Quote
not like windows 8 will cost much to begin with
SexyHyde 22nd August 2012, 00:02 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by faugusztin


And now please tell my why can't you find it ?

http://forums.bit-tech.net/showpost.php?p=3046957&postcount=3

Tried it, didn't work. The oem code I had on the laptop wouldn't activate with the retail media I have. The laptop didn't have install media and there was no copy of the install ISO. It basically comes down to how many hoops you want to jump through when you have paid the piper. Like I said after 10 hours trouble shooting, researching, phoning tech support, trying to do the legit thing. Sometimes its just better to pirate fix it. Note the software was paid for but I just couldn't be jacked with using any more of my time sorting it the proper way.
faugusztin 22nd August 2012, 00:55 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by SexyHyde
Tried it, didn't work. The oem code I had on the laptop wouldn't activate with the retail media I have. The laptop didn't have install media and there was no copy of the install ISO.

Oh laptop. Well, you probably skipped that part of the manual where it says you have to use their bundled utility right after the first install to burn your own recovery media, right ? Oh wait, what am i asking, your manual is probably still in the original packaging, not once opened. You probably managed to delete the recovery partition too, because who will let those *******s take away some of my disk space, right ?

Well in that case, you will have to order a new set of media from manufacturer of your laptop. It will probably cost you 30€, but that is the cost for not reading the f****** manual.

ASUS: http://estore.asus.com/shop/
DELL : http://support.dell.com/support/topics/global.aspx/support/dellcare/en/backupcd_form
HP: http://h10025.www1.hp.com/ewfrf/wc/document?docname=buh07342&cc=uk&dlc=en&lc=en&product=90969
Lenovo : https://www.lenovorecovery.com/Extranet/Home.aspx
Toshiba: https://backupmedia.toshiba.eu/

And i guess you can find similar service for all manufacturers.
Elton 22nd August 2012, 05:12 Quote
Windows isn't honestly that expensive. It really is worth it if you plan accordingly and buy say, once every two to three iterations (unless you have to have the new one, but there's always upgrade packages!). I mean look at the amount of patching and software you get. That said, sure you can justify how you want, but a legitimate license isn't too much of an extortion feature, given that they'll happily release you a service pack or two and support it for about 3-5 years. (For XP is was inordinately long, almost 8 years..that's not bad)

So for 100 quid (or rather for me about $130) I'd say it's wroth a buy. If you need it. And if not, there's always those tasty upgrade packs for about half price.

Boy I sound like a MS salesman. But at one point, I've realized that some things really are worth the money.
azrael- 22nd August 2012, 06:19 Quote
Just wanted to throw in that having to enter your product key during installation isn't really a new thing at all. It was the norm up until Windows XP SP3.

On price (and somewhat off-topic), while I think Microsoft is heading the right way pricewise you can still get e.g. Mac OSX for 14 GBP. Even considering the usual caveats I believe there's still room for Windows to become cheaper. Also remember, the 40 USD for the Windows 8 update is just a time-limited offer and only valid for the downloadable version (much as the aforementioned OSX).
GoodBytes 22nd August 2012, 11:26 Quote
Well in Microsoft defense. Apple update last 1 year. Every year you need to cash out 20$, and as soon as the new version is out, support is pulled of the old version, unless it's something really big that needs to be fixed. Some update of the OS requires to purchase a new MAC, in which case you are stuck to either buy a new Mac as yours is "too old", or stick with a no longer supported OS.

Moreover, with Microsoft we have weekly update of the the OS in term of security and bug fixes, while Mac OS is not even remotely close to the same number (once a month or less, and much less content per month). And every OS update you have major changes, like really big changes that makes people freak out and calling the start of the end of Windows and the company.... since Windows 95?!.. probably even before that.
Shirty 22nd August 2012, 12:09 Quote
Also, Apple don't make a lot of their money from the OS, they make it from the hardware. Remember that whole outrage about the cost of upgrading to the maximum RAM on a Macbook Pro (it cost $2000 less to buy it from Crucial and fit it yourself rather than paying Apple for the privilege)?

Apple's OS is not its bread and butter, Microsoft's OS is.
SexyHyde 22nd August 2012, 16:41 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by faugusztin
Quote:
Originally Posted by SexyHyde
Tried it, didn't work. The oem code I had on the laptop wouldn't activate with the retail media I have. The laptop didn't have install media and there was no copy of the install ISO.

Oh laptop. Well, you probably skipped that part of the manual where it says you have to use their bundled utility right after the first install to burn your own recovery media, right ? Oh wait, what am i asking, your manual is probably still in the original packaging, not once opened. You probably managed to delete the recovery partition too, because who will let those *******s take away some of my disk space, right ?

Well in that case, you will have to order a new set of media from manufacturer of your laptop. It will probably cost you 30€, but that is the cost for not reading the f****** manual.

ASUS: http://estore.asus.com/shop/
DELL : http://support.dell.com/support/topics/global.aspx/support/dellcare/en/backupcd_form
HP: http://h10025.www1.hp.com/ewfrf/wc/document?docname=buh07342&cc=uk&dlc=en&lc=en&product=90969
Lenovo : https://www.lenovorecovery.com/Extranet/Home.aspx
Toshiba: https://backupmedia.toshiba.eu/

And i guess you can find similar service for all manufacturers.

Right old chap, have a cup of tea with a chocolate hobnob, and keep calm. The laptops were not mine, they belonged to family of friends. They and I had phoned tech support no offer of purchasing the media was offered. If they install the OS why not auto create a backup ISO. I read manuals, I'm a geek like that. But average Joe doesn't. Plus if the have a licence code why not let it work with all install media.
GoodBytes 22nd August 2012, 16:55 Quote
License code under the laptop is deactivated by default. A phone activate is needed to activate it. Also, I encourage everyone to ask for the OS DISK, when they are about to purchase their system. Don't be scared.. it's just a phone, it won't eat you. Yes, it might be 5-10$, but wtv, its life saver.

Moreover, I am sure you can find Dell or wtv manufacture you have ISO disk on the internet, which will install just fine, as you have the same brand laptop. What I am trying to say, is finding Dell Windows 7 Home Premium disk ISO, will work on your Dell laptop, Lenovo Windows 7 Professional disk ISO, will work with your Lenovo laptop, and so on.
faugusztin 22nd August 2012, 17:03 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by SexyHyde
Right old chap, have a cup of tea with a chocolate hobnob, and keep calm. The laptops were not mine, they belonged to family of friends. They and I had phoned tech support no offer of purchasing the media was offered. If they install the OS why not auto create a backup ISO. I read manuals, I'm a geek like that. But average Joe doesn't. Plus if the have a licence code why not let it work with all install media.

Phoned what tech support ? Microsoft ? Microsoft has nothing to do with that. Microsoft has nothing to do with any OEM Windows at all. And why would retail media work with manufacturer specific OEM key ? The simple fact is - laptop OS installations, their keys etc has nothing to do with Microsoft, period. Except special activation cases like GoodBytes mentoined.

And that Average Joe stuff - in many cases you are asked to create those media in first few starts. And anyway, how did your Average Joe managed to remove the (usually invisible) recovery partition ?
SexyHyde 22nd August 2012, 17:31 Quote
I phoned the manufacturers tech support of the relevant laptop. one laptop had an empty recovery partition the other had a fault which meant the recovery couldn't be used. I'm all for doing things the right way but in some cases its just way easier to use the pirate shortcut and have the fix within an hour than go through a number of hoops, waiting days for a delivery, spending money on phone and software media after already owning the licence.
TC93 22nd August 2012, 23:46 Quote
Microsoft just does whatever they can to drive people to use a warez version of their software. Just incredibly stupid of them. Like always, this does absolutely nothing except hurt the paying customer.

They have also screwed their Technet users who pay good money for the software, with their latest rule changes. They have become a complete scrooge.

I have Windows 8 installed, but would not recommend it to anyone. The whole metro interface thing is a joke. You can't have two separate interfaces at the same time in one operating system. There is far more clicking you have to do in Windows 8 just to get anything done. And everything is hidden... pretty much every time I have to do a search to find what I'm looking for.

Their upgrade price drop was due to the fact they know they won't get many who want to switch to it.
GoodBytes 23rd August 2012, 00:14 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by TC93
Microsoft just does whatever they can to drive people to use a warez version of their software. Just incredibly stupid of them. Like always, this does absolutely nothing except hurt the paying customer.

They have also screwed their Technet users who pay good money for the software, with their latest rule changes. They have become a complete scrooge.

Wait what? Microsoft favors the consumer, and somehow it hurt the consumer?
Quote:

I have Windows 8 installed, but would not recommend it to anyone. The whole metro interface thing is a joke. You can't have two separate interfaces at the same time in one operating system. There is far more clicking you have to do in Windows 8 just to get anything done. And everything is hidden... pretty much every time I have to do a search to find what I'm looking for.
Funny, it's the contrary for me. Less click and faster to do things.
I highly recommend Windows 8 to everyone.
Quote:

Their upgrade price drop was due to the fact they know they won't get many who want to switch to it.
Yes because that was the same situation with crappy insult to humanity Windows 7 [/sarcasm]
Bogomip 23rd August 2012, 02:27 Quote
EULA changes are nice, hopefully everybody else will go that way soon too. Im cool with the key thing too, though admit it might be inconvenient for some.

WRG to metro, I haven't tried it yet but the start menu has been around for so long now that it will take time to get used to it- people generally dislike the unfamiliar. Ill give it a few months and see how I feel :)
GoodBytes 23rd August 2012, 03:22 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bogomip
Ill give it a few months and see how I feel :)
Good man!
That's the way we are suppose to approach something. What I am afraid is if Windows 8 fails, then Microsoft will never innovate ever again, and other companies, including games, would follow suit. They'll be like "Well Microsoft could not sale this innovative, ground breaking OS, so its best to not waist and risk money. If Microsoft can't do it we can't do it."
And if you think it doesn't work that way, well have look at every Windows release. Companies wait for other, bigger, companies to take the plunge to the new OS, before they do. More example, look at the stock market, when Intel goes down, practically all tech industries goes down, as large investors think its the end of the world. People take high influence of others.


But my scariness aside, I strongly believe that this won't be case. Windows 8 might not be as good as Windows 7 in all aspect, which I expect many here not upgrade, but the consumer will, and I encourage people to not bash the OS to computer illiterates/less advance users because it doesn't fit YOURS needs, but does HIM or HER. And I think, like Vista core, is creates an excellent foundation for suture version of Windows, which will perfect the balance between Desktop and Tablet. You can't have, just like that, a perfect balance unless you are crazy lucky. You need to get more information, by collecting data on usage, getting feedback only once people got used to this new layout, and more time for experimentation, in order to perfect things. Windows 7 is an excellent example of this. Microsoft took collected information and feedback from XP and Vista, to be able to make Windows 7. I expect Windows 9, Microsoft will do the same but with Windows 7 and 8, and so on and so forth. This recipe seams to be a big win for Microsoft, and us, users.
Bogomip 23rd August 2012, 08:41 Quote
Dont worry about it, metro will turn out fine, and a year from now we will be reading threads about how apple did it first etc :)
Gareth Halfacree 23rd August 2012, 15:52 Quote
Now, now, chaps - I believe I explicitly declared a moratorium on piracy talk, for or against. So, no more off topic posts, hmm?
Bogomip 23rd August 2012, 16:19 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gareth Halfacree
Now, now, chaps - I believe I explicitly declared a moratorium on piracy talk, for or against. So, no more off topic posts, hmm?

Sorry, didn't read the entire post before I responded ;P
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