Valve's Gabe Newell calls Windows 8 a 'catastrophe'
The impending launch of Steam for Linux is a bet against the success of Windows 8, which Valve's Newell claims is 'kind of a catastrophe.'
News that Steam is coming to Linux, along with Left 4 Dead 2 and other games from Valve, has left Linux fans jumping for joy and Windows users wondering why Valve isn't spending the money on Half-Life 3 instead. While some have pointed to the oft-rumoured Steam-powered Valve Box console as a possible reason, Newell has indicated that the move is both a nod to the users who have struggled for years running Valve games under the wine compatibility layer on Linux and also as a response to Microsoft's upcoming Windows 8 operating system.
In an interview with VentureBeat, the outspoken Newell suggested that taking Steam to Linux is a response to an increasingly closed infrastructure. 'Valve wouldn’t exist if it weren't for the PC. If people look at what they can accomplish when they can limit competitors' access to their platform, they say, "Wow, that’s really exciting." Even some of the people who have open platforms, like Microsoft, get really excited by the idea that Netflix has to pay them rent in order to be on the Internet. That’s not how we got here, and I don’t think that’s a very attractive future.
'So we're looking at the platform, and up until now we've been a free rider,[/i]' Newell continued. 'We've been able to benefit from everything that's gone into the PC and the internet. Now we have to start finding ways that we can continue to make sure there are open platforms. So, that involves a couple of different things. One, we’re trying to make sure that Linux thrives. So we're going to continue working with the Linux distribution guys, shipping Steam, shipping our games, and making it as easy as possible for anybody who's engaged with us — putting their games on Steam and getting those running on Linux, as well. It’s a hedging strategy.'
A more telling revelation, however, is Newell's response to Microsoft's touch-centric Windows 8 and its divisive Windows Phone-inspired Metro UI. 'I think that Windows 8 is kind of a catastrophe for everybody in the PC space,' Newell claimed. 'I think that we're going to lose some of the top-tier PC [original equipment manufacturers]. They'll exit the market. I think margins are going to be destroyed for a bunch of people. If that's true, it’s going to be a good idea to have alternatives to hedge against that eventuality.'
Newell is hardly the first to pour scorn on Windows 8, but his comments could cut the deepest - and with Croteam announcing the Serious Sam 3 will also be ported to Linux - Microsoft could have made the biggest misjudgement of the market since the launch of Microsoft Bob.
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Discuss in the forums ReplyI've used Ubuntu before and loved it, obviously it's just not useful for gaming but hopefully...
- First i have not found yet a good replacement for MS Office specially for their spell check capabilities and formatting options.
- Nvidia drivers are a pain if you develop games also.
- After is the fact that adobe refuses to support linux since i really need photoshop and illustrator since the existent options on linux do not offer the same quality and functionality.
- After is autodesk products such as maya or 3ds, blender isnt quite there and it can be also a pain to get things right.
While these things arent fixed i cant rely on linux to do my daily work, and I have to keep putting up with this ms crap.
Maybe steam should speed development in the linux side and offer a app store for other software.
Maybe building an sdk to bridge windows and linux would be the best way to allow big companies to do the shift to linux and consequently the users.
I found linux good if you only do normal day-to-day tasks, for software development i have to say that if you can put ur development language in eclipse u can have a good workbench for debugging and development.
I havent found other tools like qtcreator kdevelop, etc to be up to scratch with eclipse, visual studio or xcode.
For these reasons i had to pull away from linux. And I believe that until allot things change in the developer side of linux we wont be seeing any better support or any good applications to support the excellency of gnome, kde or the work put on to each distro.
So i think what that this Guy Nebbel is just talking crap. Windows 8 will be just another bad windows version and this will remain unchanged, unfortunately...
Gnome KDE and the guys that put distros together need to understand the need to allow companies to bridge easier their products between ms and linux... Because wine isn't the answer at all.
Once again corporate greed destroying everything !
Steam works fine on 8, in fact better than on 7 with my laptop as the whole OS seems quicker.
The metro UI in no way locks down the system or restricts the way you use it. Its just a glorified start menu, I really dont understand all this fuss.
Linux on the other hand... what is the point in steam running natively when 95% of games use windows-only DirectX?
Dont get what all the complaining is about. 8 is just 7 with a different (but no less functional, even on a desktop) start menu. Talk about a mountain out of a molehill!
And this what I just don't get about MS's new Metro interface and tying it to the MS Store. How is this NOT an anti-trust issue in the vein of Windows and IE? Does someone need to initiate another complaint with the EU before MS gets it into their thick heads? It is even worse than the previous complaint because MS is tying it to a commercial/for profit service.
Plus, the Start Screen is great. You have more items on the screen, plus you can get information without running programs. It's also customizable. You can make groups, pin folders, adjust everything. And of course, if you don't like too much the switch between the two (BTW, that was the same complain about User Account Control dialog box, which everyone is fine with today), you can pin all your most used programs to the taskbar, as most people do. That was the idea of Windows 7 task bar.
The large icons on the Start Screen makes it a breeze to navigate with a touchpad (which no laptop manufacture except Apple, that are unable to put anything better than an insult to humanity), and you don't need to get pin point accurate with the mouse either, even on high resolution screen. That's the same effect the Windows 7 task bar has. And most people, either pin or have setup their most used programs on the Start Menu... Why? Because it's large icons! Just instead of having 8 to 12 items from it (unless you want the task bar to look strange on your screen and have to travel distances of nothingness to reach basic folders), you have the entire screen. Where you put the most used programs on the left side and the least used one on the right.
Here is mine, on my laptop (so as it's not a gaming laptop, my games are at the right, and few). This picture was taken from my 24inch screen which is what my laptop is connected to, as I am using it as my main OS for work.
http://www.helpweaver.com/startscreen.png
Linux is simply.. not a viable option for every day usage for us (I mean here at bit-tech)
-> No proper replacement or alternative applications exists for many programs
-> Program and OS is overly crowded with useless options, making it hard to get things setup
-> Terminal, Terminal, Terminal.. you want to do something advance, in Windows is a click away (even sometimes MacOS too), but Linux... Terminal!
-> You are going to type your user name and password like crazy.. as anything you need to do at advance level, it's not a click away like in Windows with the User Account control... oh no.. it's done via the Terminal typing in your user name and password each time. What a waist of time. The only time you can get away form this, is is the option you are looking for doesn't need the Terminal.
-> No hardware support. The Drivers and manufacture support is greatly lacking in quality, let alone optimizations. Now you CAN get a nice system running on Linux.. but you have to do some digging to ensure that all your computer parts not only have Linux drivers, but the manufacture put at least some kind of effort to do it right.
-> Linux was not designed for everyone.. it was designed for people who seek to do something really specific that you can't do elsewhere, or does it better. Function first, form later. While this is good, you actually want a balance which Windows offers. When you see that we are in 2012 soon 2013, and Linux STILL doesn't have a half descent font rendering engine for it's x-Windows (KDE or Gnome)... you know that their is a problem.
-> Steam on Linux is the same as Steam on Mac... where's the games? Steam won't help get games on Linux. All you are going to have is an easier to find indi titles that works for Linux, and SOME Valve games, that is all.
While I encourage people to try and learn Linux, I don't see it, for OUR needs, to be a good option to take as a main OS. Even if drivers and gaming where not an issue. I would GLADLY cash out lots of money to get Windows license any day. Everyone I know that switch... quickly switched back to Windows.
And let's not mention, no DirectX support. If you think that developers will just switch to OpenGL, I can tell you, because I worked on OpenGL, OpenGL is miles behind DirectX. And I don't mean graphic wise (I mean that too, but in that department, it's not that far off, it's quiet close actually). What I mean is that OpenGL cannot be debugged. That means it's HELL for developers. Something doesn't work properly.. can you trace it? No. Can you see what's going on, on the back? Not unless you have the tools that only Nvidia and AMD engineers have. AMD and Nvidia support for OpenGL is virtually none. Most examples, and developer tools for Nvidia and AMD graphic card are DirectX.
Example:
Nvidia PerKit. A nice little tool to help analyses performance for OpenGL, so that you can optimize to help you find the bug or issue in your shader language. Oh wait.. no Fermi support.. we are in 2012, Kepler is out, and PerKit doesn't support Fermi. Shows you how much they care. But on DirectX side, Holy crap! You have complete analysis tools, for CUDA too, fully embed in Visual Studio.
Talking about Visual Studio, the BEST (and I don't mean: one of the best.. no no no.. their isn't anything close to it, and that is why Microsoft is happily charging super high licensing fees. Which companies don't struggle for a second to acquire the latest version.. it's that good). You don't have under Linux.
Newell is saying this for a simple reason... he is scared that they lose business form it's Steam service. Think about it. If Microsoft only takes 20% fees on apps that sales a lot, instead of 30%. Publishers and developers will simply put their games directly to Windows store, and skip Steam, which charges 30%. So it is in his complete interest that no one buys Windows 8. Plus you'll have XBox integration.
But what Newell doesn't know, is that: you still get more with Steam. You have the social network, the chat system, the in game overlay system, and DRM system. Even if Microsoft puts all it's energy in making something better than Steam.. it would take years before can get to what they are NOW. By then Steam will be far ahead. Also, Steam takes care of everything in term of licensing and process payment and account system for publishers/developers which Windows App Store doesn't. You don't even have a game patch system flexible as Steam one. Example, you are missing DirectX runtime library... the Windows App store won't detect that, download it and install it before running the game, so that you have an easy setup process.
So gamers will still use Steam. The only time I would be in Newell shoes, is if I knew that I had no more ideas to develop Steam.
I especially liked this: "...if you put aside Metro...". That's what everyone is complaining about!!
We aren't whining about it being faster. We're whining that all that speed is eaten up by time wasted mucking about with a tablet interface on a desktop. Time lost that you can't get back with a snappier OS.
Why would I need (or want) a touchscreen optimised UI with a 24in monitor? Or multiple monitors? I'll change my opinion of Metro on desktop when Apple comes out with a 20in iPad.
The fact is that I'm not adverse to UI changes. I quite like running Ubuntu+Unity even though all the other bearded folk hate it. But Metro just makes everything painful.
Also, I'd rather work with Vista everyday than W8+Metro. At least Vista can be made liveable. I'd be stuck with Metro.
I've never had a problem not finding an application for something. Besides, if it doesn't exist, code it and then it does.
Actually you can do most things without the terminal if you so wish
a) You never need to type your username
b) If typing your password is such a problem, "sudo -i" makes you root so you only need to type your password once in that terminal session (alternatively login as root and you don't need to type your password at all).
AMD's drivers are fine.
You need the distibution system before you can distribute anything. Games will come with time.
I personally feel games are the what linux is weakest in, and thanks to indie developers that is becoming less of an issue. With more games, AMD and Nvidia are inclined to improve their video drivers, which are the next worst thing about linux. Third worst would be considered user friendliness, which is not really a focus of linux (as a whole). Depending on how you set it up, linux can actually be easier than windows or mac, but it isn't meant for the general public and never has been. Distributions like ubuntu target the general public but that hasn't been very successful yet, and it's because of... well... the general public. The problem I see all the time with linux (even from earlier posts) is people EXPECT linux to do everything that they feel comfortable with in windows, whether that's changing a setting in a certain manner or running a program that is only on windows. People have overall seem to have accepted that Macs are inteded to operate differently and won't run everything they're used to, or even in the same way. What's so different about linux? Sometimes it may LOOK the same but appearance is nothing.
I personally haven't installed wine on my linux setups in over 3 years and the 1 and only reason why I would install it (if I cared to) is for the occasional game I play. Instead, I just dual boot with windows and dumb it down as much as I can so games will perform best on my relatively mediocre hardware.
If Gabe can successfully get enough games working on linux, I won't ever need to consider installing wine ever again.
Find me a program that support a service that I can play and download unlimited music legally, and that isn't MOD's, XM's, IT's formats (use VLC to play them, if you have no idea what I am talking about: http://modarchive.org/index.php?request=view_actions_uploads. I kinda prefer 16-bit music over... this. Oh and it's not chip tune.. you wish it was.)
How about a program that allows me to purchase and sync song from one place.. to let's say.. my iPod or iPhone.
How about a developer IDE and compiler, like Visual Studio that is competable?
And I can go on and on...
Yes, I am definitely going to program those. All alone... in a few weeks. More reason why I don't like the Linux community. Every time I ask something, nicely too.. I get the same old: "Here is the source code, have fun!". Linux community wants to be popular, but goes all snobbish on everyone, pushing them away... Ubuntu community is the only one, so far that I had a good experience, that they have people that care and are actually helpful. Good for them. No wonder, this distribution of Linux is so popular.
Also, I should not need this at all.
Whist Visual studio is free (as in beer) your effectively locked into a MS ecosystem which means your software is not free.
Ultimately Linux is different that won't suit every one but to dismiss it because it doesn't fit your requirements exactly is a little short sighted, we all (most of us...) dismissed iPods/iPhones/iPads but some one is happy enough to make apple bigger than exxon.
And it gets worse from here. Want (or need) to develop for Windows XP or Server 2003. Sure, no problem. You just need to install VS 2010.
Oh, and lucky you, if you're a hobby or first-time developer. MS has got you covered with Visual Studio Express. You can create any application you want as long as it's a Metro app. Although MS has promised that a VSX 2012 for Windows Desktop will appear eventually.
Last, but not least, the Linux password gripe. Mac OSX does it too, although admittedly with a graphical prompt. What's the problem. And is it truly worse than the UAC?
EDIT: I need to add that while the VS IDE is quite good, VC, for instance, pales compared to GCC.
Office runs fine through wine
Spotify lets you play music and runs in Wine (there is a preview of a native version aswell). I didn't know something existed letting you download songs.
The common suggestions seem to be CodeBlocks or NetBeans (although there are lots of suggestions at http://stackoverflow.com/questions/24109/c-ide-for-linux). Alternatively use GCC and a text editor
If you're referring to not needing to know how to become root, then yes you do. Otherwise it would be like complaining you can't change settings on Windows without logging in to an administrator account.
Drivers will improve when there is a demand for them. With a lack of games for Linux there is no point for high quality drivers, the current ones work for 2D graphics.
The "marketplace system" is great but only distributes free applications, it doesn't have a facility to make you pay for them.
Keep in mind that for the advanced distros, there is such thing as a stupid question. For example, lets say you wanted a drive to automatically mount at boot. That's a legit good question for the ubuntu forums, but is considered something you should already know for a distro like Arch or Gentoo. So when you come to those communities for a question like that, they wonder why you stooped to their advanced level when you can't even handle it.
Goodbytes its quite well know that you are invested in the MS Ecosystem, not every one is. If you don't want to use Linux that's fine, Linux has never tried to take over the world. Believe it or not there is life out side of Windows and money to be made for developing for other platforms.
Now if you don't want to use Linux why continue this conversation? Mr Newell has stated an opinion which runs counter to your experience with Win8, I don't see what relevance the existence of Open Office, Spotifiy, Gimp etc etc has here.
I won't be surprised if the new Office will follow the same faith.. no XP support. It could also be due to technical reasons. Office for instance uses hardware accelerated graphics using Windows framework. You can only do it like a game... which isn't ideal. The best you can get is panel inside the program that display 3D.. like StarCraft 2 map editor or 3DS Max, but not mix both. Of course, anything is possible, but that's the path that Microsoft picked.
Oh, and lucky you, if you're a hobby or first-time developer. MS has got you covered with Visual Studio Express. You can create any application you want as long as it's a Metro app. Although MS has promised that a VSX 2012 for Windows Desktop will appear eventually.
Last, but not least, the Linux password gripe. Mac OSX does it too, although admittedly with a graphical prompt. What's the problem. And is it truly worse than the UAC?
EDIT: I need to add that while the VS IDE is quite good, VC, for instance, pales compared to GCC.[/QUOTE]
Amazon MP3 has a Linux client. You can then sync to your iPod/iPhone with Banshee, Rhythmbox or Amarok.
Also Wine isn't a solution, many feature of programs don't work or not well. Games on wine is still a big problem. You have to wait for compatibility, unless you are lucky and it magically works perfectly.
And that also highlight another problem with Linux.. too many distro. Imagine my dad or mom picking a computer.. and the store clerk goes "Ok so which distro you want: Here is the list to choose from: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Linux_distributions"
Yyyeeaa.. you can see their eyes crossing, right there.
2 Examples:
-> Windows ISO to USB/DVD tool
-> Many interface software for xcopy
Anyway, this is off topic...
As much as I like competition, and actually want Linux to be better known. My point is that Newell is bashing Windows 8 not for any other reason beside his personal interest (competition to Steam).
And those jumping the gun, going "I am going to Linux".. well this isn't a smart move. And finally the StartScreen isn't all that bad once you you arrange stuff around, like I did (see pictures a few post back).
Also, it seems you need to read the blog posts about the VS2012 IDE more carefully. Menus in caps (already linked to) and a dark theme (although this has apparently dropped been now). Ergonomics be damned.
US only service and also not unlimited download. Rhythmbox and Amarok, also doesn't have SmartDJ let alone an iTunes Genuis replacement system.
Right - where to start. Professionals, who need specific professional software. Most of the time, the professional software only runs on Windows (think Autodesk or other CAD software). In these cases, there is no escaping the cold crushing hand of Windows. They are essentially forced to use Windows, as developers will not start developing for other OSes while there is no demand for them, and the professionals will not use the other OSes as they are locked into Windows. Catch 22, huh?
But most of us are not professionals who absolutely require Windows software. Most people (statistically) only use computers as tools to manage, document, and plot out their work. For these purposes, all the OS needs is an office suite (LibreOffice), a web browser, and support for networking technologies. These three things (and more) are perfectly covered by software on Linux, most of which is actually cross-platform software and in use in many Windows companies as well.
This is the category that most of us here fall into. On top of this, one of the main things that brings us together is our love of
the PC master-racePC games. And hopefully, with Gabe Newell's pioneering, we can bring mainstream games to Linux too, which increases developer interest in developing for Linux, and positive feedback takes the rest from there. Currently, apart from games, Linux does everything most of us need. In the future, even the games will not limit us.And once consumer usage of Linux has increases, perhaps to 20% or more, professional companies will start to think about getting in on a slice of the pie and port their professional software to Linux as well. Then professionals, sick of being bullied by Microsoft and Windows, will gradually move to Linux.
Driver support for Linux is another thing you bring up GoodBytes. Perhaps you saw the video of Linus Torvalds swearing at Nvidia? The Linux community cannot change the state of device drivers that easily - open source projects like nouveau are trying their best, but in the end it is up to the device manufacturer to maintain their products. With the increase in game developer interest in the Linux platform, we may see an increase in the quality of ATI and Nvidia drivers.
The one thing that I agree with you about is Visual Studio. If there is one thing that Microsoft got right, it is that. Nothing can come close to the overall finesse of the IDE - although large and sometimes slow, it has features that nothing else can rival.
And now I am off to my nuclear bunker to wait out the storm...
That would pretty much destroy most indie devs which steam has allowed to thrive.
Will everyone mass migrate to linux not in a 100 years. This is not a phone where you can switch between andriod versions and everything will work stil. Linux for the most part still lacks a User friendly interface along with easy installation of programs, It also does not support nvidia graphics cards very easily and nvidia has no plans to improve that support.
All the major proffesional applications support Windows and Mac thats it, and the mac support is touch and go in places for certain pro applications. Games are also bearly supported under native Mac and that has a larger market share than linux ( linux has 1.41 % at last check).
Combined data is below for market share ( Source : http://www.netmarketshare.com/operating-system-market-share.aspx?qprid=10)
Mac market share is around 5%
windows has 85% give or take
ios has 5%
andriod 1.5%
linux has 1.4 %
for linux to aquire another 19% in a short period of time would take.
1./ The general none tech consumer to be told it first exists as 99% of people dont even know what linux is.
2./ A more user friendly installation
3./ A it just works scenario that most windows users are used to with things like facebook ect.
4./ GPU Driver support from AMD And Nvidia
Can you really see linux going on an advertising campain, Apple must be on tv every day about there products it has a 10% total market share for everything that it sells.
GL to your linux idea but it wont take off for the 99% who dont even know what it is.
@rollo
Linux isn't known because nobody advertises it and almost no OEMs will ship it for desktop PCs. Also, since desktop releases aren't something you can buy, people won't encounter it in stores. However, even if what I just mentioned weren't the case, linux as of right now would still remain unpopular do to the relative user unfriendliness of it, but, it'd be more popular than it is now. More popularity would mean more developers, and more developers could potentially mean more user-friendly tools.
Also, I wouldn't say the nvidia drivers are the problem. Nvidia has the best proprietary drivers, it has most features people need or want except optimus or KMS. AMD has the notorious drivers. As another point to make, linux is only difficult to install things if you decide to avoid using package managers. For example in debian-based distros, it is easier to install programs in linux than windows if you decide to use synaptic, but is harder to install programs if you download them from a web browser.
I've said exactly the same thing before on another forum and now, I'm one more step close to moving to Linux....
You still play TF2? I stop playing that game when everyone is cheating, is trying to sale their items over voice and/or chat non stop. There was even an admin that kicked out people who refused to buy his stuff. Talking about spam land.
*facepalm* GoodBytes? Really? I didn't think you would stoop so low as to question another individual's opinions? TF2 is an enjoyable game to many (including me), and no matter what you say will not make us stop playing it. You don't like it? Go play a different game then.
Sorry if that sounded a bit condescending.
S*D
Surely regardless of OS, this isn't down to having a password or not. This is down to someone being silly.
Sure, if I let you on my PC and you need the admin password to install stuff, then I know that you can't install porn.exe, or superfunhappysmileyface.exe, but shouldn't the question be more why are you trying to install that sh*t on my PC without asking me first?
Also, (and correct me if I'm wrong, only just started on linux) if you said "Hey what's your password? I want to show you something superepicandcool." and I turn round and say "Oh yea it's qwerty" then the password really hasn't done a thing.
Passwords are just another layer of protection that stupidity can quite easily remove, just like hitting yes on the UAC prompt.
More on topic, I'm glad Valve are doing stuff with Linux, it gives people more options and hopefully pushes forward another OS. As for windows 8, I think it might be bad as an idea, but not bad in practice. Reading goodbytes thoughts on the metro system, I do kind of agree. It'll just take some getting used to I suppose!
Find the servers and communities that suit you - this goes for all games. I play TF2 almost daily with friends I met on CS:S and BF2. I rarely see cheaters on the servers I play on, and by rarely, I mean maybe one a month, way less then on other games, unless i'm just better than most cheats (don't mean to sound big headed). The buying/selling/trading was a bit bothersome when it was first introduced, mainly as almost everyone was trying it out and some people realised they could get cool stuff for common items from the less knowledgeable. This has stopped almost completely now. I spent 2-3 times more in Mann Co then the Steam store during the sale too. I play other games too, BF3 was my last big game I sunk a bit of time into but after 80 hours of play it has just become stale but its had more time then the various CODs had at 20-40 hours and MOH was similar. I sunk more time into BC2 & QW:ET (~200 hours) and BF2 had almost 1000 hours. TF2 must me doing something right, as I just keep going back game after game.
Why dont you check out the average price paid for the humble music bundle http://www.humblebundle.com/ now i'm placing it here early and lets see if its still valid in a few days because atm its MS $7.13, Mac $9.40 & Linux $11.89. Open Source Software doesn't stop people making money, as its about free as in speech rather than free as in beer. It's just a lot of people/companies can also make money and give it away for free. It would seem if you charge, you can get a few users thus a few people that pay. Give it away and charge for support + have donations, you get many users and a few pay + support fees. If its free and good, many pay it seems.
So my guess is that we'll be waiting until direct to hardware programming is the norm, OR some DirectX API alternative, before we see much movement away from Windows. After all, the reason many still use Windows is that it is the only feasible gaming OS currently.
Of course, the game developers that use a pre-made game engine (think Unreal Engine or Source) have it the easy way. All the (often big) company behind the engine needs to do is port the engine to use OpenGL on Linux - most of the games based on that engine can therefore be ported easily as well. This is what Valve are doing - they are porting their Source engine to Linux, along with Steam, which will make porting all Source games very easy to do.
Remember, I am not talking about home users, which is the issue. No one will use my computer, password or not. I don't use my mother computers either (even though I know her password, which she gave me...) So Having a password system, will make people, at home, have a stupid 1 character password... Space being the easiest, as it's a large button, and hard to forget. This by-passing the point of Linux password. And will not stop people opening: image.jpg.exe form their e-mail, and allow full rights. Even if they put the entire password.. people don't go "Wait.. a picture needs admin? WTF!"... NO they go "I want to see that picture!"
You missed 3 key points"
1. It's not just about people using your computer locally. While someone hacking into it seems more unlikely, it isn't impossible. Also it helps slow you down before you decide to make a really big accident that could affect the system.
2. In linux anyway, you don't need a password to run anything that you yourself put in your home folder. You do, however, need to chmod something to become executable, which at times can be a pain but it also ensures that NOTHING will start without your permission. Without a password, any executable can be placed in any part of the system and be auto-started at any time without your permission. This is exactly why Windows is so insecure - malware can (and does) just put itself anywhere it pleases, modify the registry without any restictions, and then when launched, does further damage to your stuff. This can't happen if you don't have access to the rest of the system and if you don't have the password to it. UAC can be avoided by good programmers.
3. Passwords aren't supposed to be easy, they're supposed to be secretive, and the point of being secretive is to protect something. Linux USED to allow accounts with no passwords, but once people realized how vulnerable that makes the average person, they forced a password to exist. When you have an easy password like spacebar, not only does it make hacking your computer very easy but it increases the chances of malware. The difference between a password and UAC is you can't continue without knowing exactly what the password is, whereas UAC will permit anything as long as you click allow, which is just as insecure as pressing spacebar.
BTW, I'm not really paranoid - I have nothing on my computers worth of value to anyone, so someone could freely hack into my stuff and copy/delete everything and while I'd be really mad, my life can continue just fine. But dismissing passwords to do administrative tasks (and yes, any tasks that modify the system outside of your user account no matter what OS is considered administrative) as useless is ridiculously naiive.
We all know you're just trying to distract our attention from the fact that we're STILL not playing HL3.
I keed, I keed!
I'm not trying to be funny, but, your sounding rather stupid. Almost all your 'points' have been proven to be at best 'not quite right'. Just put the spade down and get out of the digger, the hole you have dug is MASSIVE. You don't like Linux and its not suitable for you, fine, but its not anything like your making it out to be.
Now if we take the same example for linux, download something malicious and run it, will it not ask for access to root prompting for my password, and if I enter would it still not fubar the system?
If you do respond, which I'd like and I'm interested to learn some more :) , I'd say PM me as this thread is going fairly off topic
To both,
You are not getting what I am trying to say. My point is that lay people (average people), at home, if they know that they'll need to put passwords everywhere, then they won't put a strong password, they'll put something silly, so that it's easy to remember, and quick to do.
My mom password is 1 hair from abc123. Why? She already needs to remember several passwords at works that keep changes.... she has enough of passwords. Already she wanted initially no password to log-in, and I kinda push her to have SOMETHING. Now I am not too worried about her computer, because I know what she does, and it's nothing important, and and I have a strong (for home), network security, and all computers fully updated, and the hole set of security package.
Lay people, aren't US. We have the brain for this kind of things.. we are used to it, we like complicated things, and tweak the **** of things, and gets our hands dirty. We are computer enthusiasts, and damn proud of it. It's not the same thing for lay people. They want simple, they just want to do what they want. If you try to complicate things.. they'll find ways (stupid ways) to go around it. My experience in IT supports what I am saying about lay people.
In conclusion, having you to enter a password, won't be "more secure" than hitting "Allow" button on the UAC dialog box.
My dad, called 'millennium bug' by his colleagues for his ability to break any computer at work trying to do simple things, I'm sure he would be in your group 'lay people', well I decided to give him a linux computer to see if it helped, as i was fed up with fixing his windows computer. apart from having to change openoffice to save in microsoft office formats he didn't really have any issues. That was Suse 8.2 back in 2003/4. He still doesn't really know anything about computers but uses the ubuntu install on his dual boot laptop more than XP, and he only has that as he has a work program that will only work on XP. I know of two people that used his ubuntu computer and have said it was good, i dont know anyone that has had trouble with it, and it will have been used by at least 30 people, probably 50+.
It's for a reason Microsoft scrap it and pretty much restarted from scratch. 6 years later.. you have Vista, then Windows 7.
The place I used to work, when I used to work as IT before doing soft. dev. When we switch to Windows 7 from XP, we saw a drastic reduction in malware/virus infection (it's at 0 since Win7 was adapted, which was a few months after its release), and also we saved a lot on the electric bill, thanks to Windows 7 (well Vista) improved power management system. Anyway, XP is a very old OS, based on the original NT, that is a 1993 OS. All it's weaknesses in security are well known by people doing these viruses, and malware. A famous virus attack we had in XP, was people opening an e-mail an executable, a fake anti-virus, which, without restart, can turn the account, despite on the domain under very restrictive policies (but non a mandatory profile, as we wanted program settings and Windows settings to carry with them), to become Administrator, delete all personal files, and places it's viruses, pop-up malware, and redirect websites to a proxy server to, possibly, start stealing bank account information.
No, I was not comparing to XP. I was pointing out that I gave a 'lay person' linux and they were fine. It was also a linux from 8 years ago. I was also pointing out that my dad uses his ubuntu laptop with people at his work (they have to use his laptop to complete work) and they just don't have a problem using it. If you need bespoke software yeah linux might not be viable but for most people, bar gamers (at least till valve get the ball rolling), linux is perfectly fine. There are some things you need to do differently but they are not as much as Windows 8.
The problem with open source software is that there can be gaps in continuity. The patchwork can lead to a very powerful and feature rich application, however the user interface is god awful. Take GIMP for example - it's very good at what it does, but it is very fiddly and the separate windows for each toolbox is annoying to work with. Blender is actually very powerful for free software, but the interface is cramped and confusing.
On the MS and Apple side however, programs have this visual polish which seem to suggest that they are better than they actually are. They make the interfaces simple because they know that the layman will be using it, and it works. You open up GIMP/OO.o/Blender and think 'WTF', then close it and eventually go back to Windows because it has 'better' apps. If OpenOffice had a lick of paint, I'm sure it would be just as popular as MSOffice.
On the topic of gaming, the 'chicken and egg' analogy is right. You need one for the other to work. Someone above mentioned that the PS3 used OpenGL. I don't see the problem here with porting these over to Linux (I know that PS3 uses a different architecture to the x86 platform used on PC, but that doesn't stop console to PC ports normally). The same applies to XBox games, if developers will make a game for XBox, PS3 and PC, then they have to make it work for OpenGL, DirectX, and not to mention the separate architectures across all three platforms. Perhaps I'm missing something here, but it's probably more down to whether it's worth it for the sake of a 'handful' of Linux users, bearing in mind that this is only a handful because devs only make games for Windows. The same principle applies for professional software.
Perhaps it's down to the fact that developers of commercial software have an aversion to developing for those who are accustomed to open source software, people who won't possibly pay for something when they can use a free alternative. Let's not forget that GIMP, Blender and OpenOffice are also available for Windows.
GIMP 2.8 has single-window mode, which solves that problem. This is an example of what open-source software can achieve - the community wanted single-window mode, it generated high interest in the users of GIMP, and therefore the developers added it into the release. With a commercial product you usually find there has to be auditing and many other corporate decisions that must be made before such a change can come into a product. And it is often for a fee.
Tried it, while it's better, it's not much improvement. If you scale the window smaller, the layout isn't adjusted, it just cuts the layout out. Also, the interface is still panel based on that mode. What I mean is that all they did, is make the picture window, have the tool bars and add gray bars on the left and right of the window. anything you open, shows as external panels which you need to pin, and the side gray bar that you pin panels are, isn't scalable.
Still a lot of work is needed. But it's a step in the right direction.
You raise a good point. The beauty of open source software is that if you don't like something, you can fix it. Even better is the fact that you can submit a potential enhancement and it might actually get applied.
The single-window mode also supports my original point. If the interface was any good, then I would have noticed this and applied it myself. This isn't a stab at Linux, but more towards the devs who make the software that Linux depends on to provide a suitable working environment for the average user that can match Windows.
GoodBytes: I see your point, however you seem to know your stuff, so be part of the solution. Saying "why should I?" after complaining about something is what halts progress and keeps open source software in the dark ages.
Such a typical response from a fully signed up member of the linux fan club.... If you're OS doesn't do what you want then just write your own software.
Classic! That may be 100% impractical but it's much more educational than using an OS with a wider set of options.
In fact every single single you've said has the typical pro-linux slant to it. Be honest, linux may be clever and viable for some,but it's not as user friendly and 'muggle proof' as windows or OSX.
agree!
'muggle proof' your going to have to explain this. If you mean what i think you mean, i have typed this with my toes, due to double facepalming!
I recently completed a Linux distro, based on Ubuntu but with custom themes, programs and user interface. I was making it look similar to Gnome 2, but in XFCE. Menu button on a bar at the top, clock at the top, windows opening in the task bar at the bottom. This was the Karoshi Client 2.0 release (see my sig for The Linux Schools Project). After installing it in 2 computer rooms at my school and watching my classmates use the new client, 95% had no problems whatsoever. No asking for help, no moaning about how bad it is, nothing. They just sat down, acknowledged the new look, and carried on. The 5% who were not able to use it straight away asked classmates for help, and were soon on their way.
I know this case does not represent the adult populus, as children are usually more technologically friendly, but if it is this easy for children, then all adults will need is half an hour working around the user interface, before they use it just as effectively as the previous OS.
(In this example the previous OS was Karoshi Client 1.0, but it very closely resembled Windows, and can thus represent Windows in this example)
The better news, is that the following year, now all labs at university have dual boot Windows/Linux on them. I guess many people complained... and the labs are for engineering and computer science. Since then, I see 99.9% running Windows on them.
I put Linux in my dad and mom computer in the early days. Mainly due, me not having money to buy a Windows license. My parents used it just fine. The only I did is made it look closer to Windows, with the task bar and all. But nothing drastic. It was clearly different. The day my mom and dad needed Windows for some programs that didn't run on wine. I put them Windows, which was a few years later... and had money for buying licenses. And the only thing I got, when asked what do they think, is how nice it is, how easier it is to get things done, and how easier it is to read text.
Our school just moved from windows to something different :O and pretty much everyone complained and they are planning to move back for next year :D.
How is it more limited, when you have large performance improvements, and much more features than Windows 7?