bit-tech.net

Valve's Gabe Newell calls Windows 8 a 'catastrophe'

Valve's Gabe Newell calls Windows 8 a 'catastrophe'

The impending launch of Steam for Linux is a bet against the success of Windows 8, which Valve's Newell claims is 'kind of a catastrophe.'

Valve's Gabe Newell has finally revealed his reasons for porting his company's Steam digital distribution platform to Linux: Windows 8 is just that bad.

News that Steam is coming to Linux, along with Left 4 Dead 2 and other games from Valve, has left Linux fans jumping for joy and Windows users wondering why Valve isn't spending the money on Half-Life 3 instead. While some have pointed to the oft-rumoured Steam-powered Valve Box console as a possible reason, Newell has indicated that the move is both a nod to the users who have struggled for years running Valve games under the wine compatibility layer on Linux and also as a response to Microsoft's upcoming Windows 8 operating system.

In an interview with VentureBeat, the outspoken Newell suggested that taking Steam to Linux is a response to an increasingly closed infrastructure. 'Valve wouldn’t exist if it weren't for the PC. If people look at what they can accomplish when they can limit competitors' access to their platform, they say, "Wow, that’s really exciting." Even some of the people who have open platforms, like Microsoft, get really excited by the idea that Netflix has to pay them rent in order to be on the Internet. That’s not how we got here, and I don’t think that’s a very attractive future.

'So we're looking at the platform, and up until now we've been a free rider,[/i]' Newell continued. 'We've been able to benefit from everything that's gone into the PC and the internet. Now we have to start finding ways that we can continue to make sure there are open platforms. So, that involves a couple of different things. One, we’re trying to make sure that Linux thrives. So we're going to continue working with the Linux distribution guys, shipping Steam, shipping our games, and making it as easy as possible for anybody who's engaged with us — putting their games on Steam and getting those running on Linux, as well. It’s a hedging strategy.'

A more telling revelation, however, is Newell's response to Microsoft's touch-centric Windows 8 and its divisive Windows Phone-inspired Metro UI. 'I think that Windows 8 is kind of a catastrophe for everybody in the PC space,' Newell claimed. 'I think that we're going to lose some of the top-tier PC [original equipment manufacturers]. They'll exit the market. I think margins are going to be destroyed for a bunch of people. If that's true, it’s going to be a good idea to have alternatives to hedge against that eventuality.'

Newell is hardly the first to pour scorn on Windows 8, but his comments could cut the deepest - and with Croteam announcing the Serious Sam 3 will also be ported to Linux - Microsoft could have made the biggest misjudgement of the market since the launch of Microsoft Bob.

74 Comments

Discuss in the forums Reply
Zinfandel 26th July 2012, 13:31 Quote
I'd definitely switch to Linux if there were good support for games/proper drivers for HW.

I've used Ubuntu before and loved it, obviously it's just not useful for gaming but hopefully...
lexloofah 26th July 2012, 13:43 Quote
yeah but nobody (and im talkin 0.5% of users) are going for linux over win8 its silly to wage war over OS's.
liratheal 26th July 2012, 14:02 Quote
He's right, if that metro nonsense can't be turned off in 8.
derviansoul 26th July 2012, 14:09 Quote
I have used Ubuntu, Arch Linux and other a while back, but i end up getting frustrated with the lack of good software to backup the excellence of distros.

- First i have not found yet a good replacement for MS Office specially for their spell check capabilities and formatting options.
- Nvidia drivers are a pain if you develop games also.
- After is the fact that adobe refuses to support linux since i really need photoshop and illustrator since the existent options on linux do not offer the same quality and functionality.
- After is autodesk products such as maya or 3ds, blender isnt quite there and it can be also a pain to get things right.

While these things arent fixed i cant rely on linux to do my daily work, and I have to keep putting up with this ms crap.

Maybe steam should speed development in the linux side and offer a app store for other software.
Maybe building an sdk to bridge windows and linux would be the best way to allow big companies to do the shift to linux and consequently the users.

I found linux good if you only do normal day-to-day tasks, for software development i have to say that if you can put ur development language in eclipse u can have a good workbench for debugging and development.
I havent found other tools like qtcreator kdevelop, etc to be up to scratch with eclipse, visual studio or xcode.

For these reasons i had to pull away from linux. And I believe that until allot things change in the developer side of linux we wont be seeing any better support or any good applications to support the excellency of gnome, kde or the work put on to each distro.

So i think what that this Guy Nebbel is just talking crap. Windows 8 will be just another bad windows version and this will remain unchanged, unfortunately...

Gnome KDE and the guys that put distros together need to understand the need to allow companies to bridge easier their products between ms and linux... Because wine isn't the answer at all.
Dave Lister 26th July 2012, 14:30 Quote
I think reading this has put the final nail in the coffin for me not to upgrade to windows 8, I hadn't realized at all the MS were making it a more closed system, if I wanted an apple system i'd buy one !

Once again corporate greed destroying everything !
Yslen 26th July 2012, 14:48 Quote
I have to say... huh?

Steam works fine on 8, in fact better than on 7 with my laptop as the whole OS seems quicker.

The metro UI in no way locks down the system or restricts the way you use it. Its just a glorified start menu, I really dont understand all this fuss.

Linux on the other hand... what is the point in steam running natively when 95% of games use windows-only DirectX?

Dont get what all the complaining is about. 8 is just 7 with a different (but no less functional, even on a desktop) start menu. Talk about a mountain out of a molehill!
proxess 26th July 2012, 15:28 Quote
Well then what's the point of Steam for Mac? Once the structure for distribution is up, you'll start seeing people make games for Linux, as they've started making games to run natively in Mac as well.
azrael- 26th July 2012, 15:29 Quote
If you believe that Metro is just a glorified start menu then you really haven't been paying attention. Microsoft is betting the farm on Metro. If everything goes as planned software for Windows will be synonymous with Metro apps. The desktop is relegated to legacy status as in "oh by the way, here's the desktop". And where would the only place be to get Metro apps from? Why, the Microsoft Store of course!
dyzophoria 26th July 2012, 15:40 Quote
for all the the people who didn't read the article - METRO is not the reason why 8 is catastrophe, Gabe is talking about the App Store, and honestly I suggest for every metro hater to stop whining about it, I could understand Vista, everything was slow, startup times, wifi issues, networking issues, heck even simple usb transfer issues. but for 8, if you put aside Metro, everything works better if not great, the system is faster, it boots faster, stuffs start faster, compatiblity-wise its 100% backward with 7.
Adnoctum 26th July 2012, 15:48 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by azrael-
And where would the only place be to get Metro apps from? Why, the Microsoft Store of course!

And this what I just don't get about MS's new Metro interface and tying it to the MS Store. How is this NOT an anti-trust issue in the vein of Windows and IE? Does someone need to initiate another complaint with the EU before MS gets it into their thick heads? It is even worse than the previous complaint because MS is tying it to a commercial/for profit service.
Shirty 26th July 2012, 15:50 Quote
Gabe is no more an industry pundit than anyone else, he might be a visionary (sometimes), but he gets things as wrong as the rest of us.
GoodBytes 26th July 2012, 15:53 Quote
I agree with dyzophoria,

Plus, the Start Screen is great. You have more items on the screen, plus you can get information without running programs. It's also customizable. You can make groups, pin folders, adjust everything. And of course, if you don't like too much the switch between the two (BTW, that was the same complain about User Account Control dialog box, which everyone is fine with today), you can pin all your most used programs to the taskbar, as most people do. That was the idea of Windows 7 task bar.

The large icons on the Start Screen makes it a breeze to navigate with a touchpad (which no laptop manufacture except Apple, that are unable to put anything better than an insult to humanity), and you don't need to get pin point accurate with the mouse either, even on high resolution screen. That's the same effect the Windows 7 task bar has. And most people, either pin or have setup their most used programs on the Start Menu... Why? Because it's large icons! Just instead of having 8 to 12 items from it (unless you want the task bar to look strange on your screen and have to travel distances of nothingness to reach basic folders), you have the entire screen. Where you put the most used programs on the left side and the least used one on the right.

Here is mine, on my laptop (so as it's not a gaming laptop, my games are at the right, and few). This picture was taken from my 24inch screen which is what my laptop is connected to, as I am using it as my main OS for work.
http://www.helpweaver.com/startscreen.png

Linux is simply.. not a viable option for every day usage for us (I mean here at bit-tech)
-> No proper replacement or alternative applications exists for many programs
-> Program and OS is overly crowded with useless options, making it hard to get things setup
-> Terminal, Terminal, Terminal.. you want to do something advance, in Windows is a click away (even sometimes MacOS too), but Linux... Terminal!
-> You are going to type your user name and password like crazy.. as anything you need to do at advance level, it's not a click away like in Windows with the User Account control... oh no.. it's done via the Terminal typing in your user name and password each time. What a waist of time. The only time you can get away form this, is is the option you are looking for doesn't need the Terminal.
-> No hardware support. The Drivers and manufacture support is greatly lacking in quality, let alone optimizations. Now you CAN get a nice system running on Linux.. but you have to do some digging to ensure that all your computer parts not only have Linux drivers, but the manufacture put at least some kind of effort to do it right.
-> Linux was not designed for everyone.. it was designed for people who seek to do something really specific that you can't do elsewhere, or does it better. Function first, form later. While this is good, you actually want a balance which Windows offers. When you see that we are in 2012 soon 2013, and Linux STILL doesn't have a half descent font rendering engine for it's x-Windows (KDE or Gnome)... you know that their is a problem.
-> Steam on Linux is the same as Steam on Mac... where's the games? Steam won't help get games on Linux. All you are going to have is an easier to find indi titles that works for Linux, and SOME Valve games, that is all.

While I encourage people to try and learn Linux, I don't see it, for OUR needs, to be a good option to take as a main OS. Even if drivers and gaming where not an issue. I would GLADLY cash out lots of money to get Windows license any day. Everyone I know that switch... quickly switched back to Windows.

And let's not mention, no DirectX support. If you think that developers will just switch to OpenGL, I can tell you, because I worked on OpenGL, OpenGL is miles behind DirectX. And I don't mean graphic wise (I mean that too, but in that department, it's not that far off, it's quiet close actually). What I mean is that OpenGL cannot be debugged. That means it's HELL for developers. Something doesn't work properly.. can you trace it? No. Can you see what's going on, on the back? Not unless you have the tools that only Nvidia and AMD engineers have. AMD and Nvidia support for OpenGL is virtually none. Most examples, and developer tools for Nvidia and AMD graphic card are DirectX.

Example:
Nvidia PerKit. A nice little tool to help analyses performance for OpenGL, so that you can optimize to help you find the bug or issue in your shader language. Oh wait.. no Fermi support.. we are in 2012, Kepler is out, and PerKit doesn't support Fermi. Shows you how much they care. But on DirectX side, Holy crap! You have complete analysis tools, for CUDA too, fully embed in Visual Studio.

Talking about Visual Studio, the BEST (and I don't mean: one of the best.. no no no.. their isn't anything close to it, and that is why Microsoft is happily charging super high licensing fees. Which companies don't struggle for a second to acquire the latest version.. it's that good). You don't have under Linux.


Newell is saying this for a simple reason... he is scared that they lose business form it's Steam service. Think about it. If Microsoft only takes 20% fees on apps that sales a lot, instead of 30%. Publishers and developers will simply put their games directly to Windows store, and skip Steam, which charges 30%. So it is in his complete interest that no one buys Windows 8. Plus you'll have XBox integration.

But what Newell doesn't know, is that: you still get more with Steam. You have the social network, the chat system, the in game overlay system, and DRM system. Even if Microsoft puts all it's energy in making something better than Steam.. it would take years before can get to what they are NOW. By then Steam will be far ahead. Also, Steam takes care of everything in term of licensing and process payment and account system for publishers/developers which Windows App Store doesn't. You don't even have a game patch system flexible as Steam one. Example, you are missing DirectX runtime library... the Windows App store won't detect that, download it and install it before running the game, so that you have an easy setup process.

So gamers will still use Steam. The only time I would be in Newell shoes, is if I knew that I had no more ideas to develop Steam.
Phalanx 26th July 2012, 15:58 Quote
I'm... GoodBytes, I want your babies.
Adnoctum 26th July 2012, 16:05 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by dyzophoria
for all the the people who didn't read the article - METRO is not the reason why 8 is catastrophe, Gabe is talking about the App Store, and honestly I suggest for every metro hater to stop whining about it, I could understand Vista, everything was slow, startup times, wifi issues, networking issues, heck even simple usb transfer issues. but for 8, if you put aside Metro, everything works better if not great, the system is faster, it boots faster, stuffs start faster, compatiblity-wise its 100% backward with 7.

I especially liked this: "...if you put aside Metro...". That's what everyone is complaining about!!

We aren't whining about it being faster. We're whining that all that speed is eaten up by time wasted mucking about with a tablet interface on a desktop. Time lost that you can't get back with a snappier OS.

Why would I need (or want) a touchscreen optimised UI with a 24in monitor? Or multiple monitors? I'll change my opinion of Metro on desktop when Apple comes out with a 20in iPad.
The fact is that I'm not adverse to UI changes. I quite like running Ubuntu+Unity even though all the other bearded folk hate it. But Metro just makes everything painful.

Also, I'd rather work with Vista everyday than W8+Metro. At least Vista can be made liveable. I'd be stuck with Metro.
PCBuilderSven 26th July 2012, 16:15 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by GoodBytes

-> No proper replacement or alternative applications exists for many programs

I've never had a problem not finding an application for something. Besides, if it doesn't exist, code it and then it does.
Quote:
Originally Posted by GoodBytes

-> Terminal, Terminal, Terminal.. you want to do something advance, in Windows is a click away (even sometimes MacOS too), but Linux... Terminal!

Actually you can do most things without the terminal if you so wish
Quote:
Originally Posted by GoodBytes

-> You are going to type your user name and password like crazy.. as anything you need to do at advance level, it's not a click away like in Windows with the User Account control... oh no.. it's done via the Terminal typing in your user name and password each time. What a waist of time. The only time you can get away form this, is is the option you are looking for doesn't need the Terminal.

a) You never need to type your username
b) If typing your password is such a problem, "sudo -i" makes you root so you only need to type your password once in that terminal session (alternatively login as root and you don't need to type your password at all).
Quote:
Originally Posted by GoodBytes

-> No hardware support. The Drivers and manufacture support is greatly lacking in quality, let alone optimizations. Now you CAN get a nice system running on Linux.. but you have to do some digging to ensure that all your computer parts not only have Linux drivers, but the manufacture put at least some kind of effort to do it right.

AMD's drivers are fine.
Quote:
Originally Posted by GoodBytes

-> Steam on Linux is the same as Steam on Mac... where's the games? Steam won't help get games on Linux. All you are going to have is an easier to find indi titles that works for Linux, and SOME Valve games, that is all.

You need the distibution system before you can distribute anything. Games will come with time.
schmidtbag 26th July 2012, 16:27 Quote
See, there's a lot I find explicitly worse about Windows 8, but I wouldn't consider it a catastrophe. I don't think it's so horrible that other companies will crumble because of it. Worst case scenario will be the same as the Vista scenario - if people don't like it, they will just stick with the previous version instead.


I personally feel games are the what linux is weakest in, and thanks to indie developers that is becoming less of an issue. With more games, AMD and Nvidia are inclined to improve their video drivers, which are the next worst thing about linux. Third worst would be considered user friendliness, which is not really a focus of linux (as a whole). Depending on how you set it up, linux can actually be easier than windows or mac, but it isn't meant for the general public and never has been. Distributions like ubuntu target the general public but that hasn't been very successful yet, and it's because of... well... the general public. The problem I see all the time with linux (even from earlier posts) is people EXPECT linux to do everything that they feel comfortable with in windows, whether that's changing a setting in a certain manner or running a program that is only on windows. People have overall seem to have accepted that Macs are inteded to operate differently and won't run everything they're used to, or even in the same way. What's so different about linux? Sometimes it may LOOK the same but appearance is nothing.

I personally haven't installed wine on my linux setups in over 3 years and the 1 and only reason why I would install it (if I cared to) is for the occasional game I play. Instead, I just dual boot with windows and dumb it down as much as I can so games will perform best on my relatively mediocre hardware.

If Gabe can successfully get enough games working on linux, I won't ever need to consider installing wine ever again.
tristanperry 26th July 2012, 16:33 Quote
I do hope that Windows 8 bombs and thus Linux grows in popularity. Considering Linux's limited resources, its various distros are still relatively good quality. If developers did support Linux more, it could be a great boom for it.
GoodBytes 26th July 2012, 16:40 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by PCBuilderSven
I've never had a problem not finding an application for something. Besides, if it doesn't exist, code it and then it does.
Ok, find me a program for Linux, that is like Office and have a half decent spell checker and some kind of grammar check to start off.

Find me a program that support a service that I can play and download unlimited music legally, and that isn't MOD's, XM's, IT's formats (use VLC to play them, if you have no idea what I am talking about: http://modarchive.org/index.php?request=view_actions_uploads. I kinda prefer 16-bit music over... this. Oh and it's not chip tune.. you wish it was.)

How about a program that allows me to purchase and sync song from one place.. to let's say.. my iPod or iPhone.

How about a developer IDE and compiler, like Visual Studio that is competable?

And I can go on and on...

Yes, I am definitely going to program those. All alone... in a few weeks. More reason why I don't like the Linux community. Every time I ask something, nicely too.. I get the same old: "Here is the source code, have fun!". Linux community wants to be popular, but goes all snobbish on everyone, pushing them away... Ubuntu community is the only one, so far that I had a good experience, that they have people that care and are actually helpful. Good for them. No wonder, this distribution of Linux is so popular.

Quote:

Actually you can do most things without the terminal if you so wish

a) You never need to type your username
b) If typing your password is such a problem, "sudo -i" makes you root so you only need to type your password once in that terminal session (alternatively login as root and you don't need to type your password at all).
Most isn't all.
Also, I should not need this at all.

Quote:

AMD's drivers are fine.
Fine isn't great. Nvidia's are the same.
Quote:

You need the distibution system before you can distribute anything. Games will come with time.
Doesn't Linux already have a marketplace system, which is praised by many, and even said to be first, before Apple. What happened to that?
steveo_mcg 26th July 2012, 16:44 Quote
Most (all) of your examples are readily available, they might not have some of the polish that MS applies but then MS applies an awful lot more cost one way or the other.

Whist Visual studio is free (as in beer) your effectively locked into a MS ecosystem which means your software is not free.

Ultimately Linux is different that won't suit every one but to dismiss it because it doesn't fit your requirements exactly is a little short sighted, we all (most of us...) dismissed iPods/iPhones/iPads but some one is happy enough to make apple bigger than exxon.
GoodBytes 26th July 2012, 16:47 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by steveo_mcg
Most (all) of your examples are readily available, they might not have some of the polish that MS applies but then MS applies an awful lot more cost one way or the other.
I am still waiting for an answer.

Quote:
Whist Visual studio is free (as in beer) your effectively locked into a MS ecosystem which means your software is not free.
This is where most people are and using... why would I develop under Linux when 90%+ are on under Windows? I am creating a major inconvenience for nothing. Sure I can make a Linux version of my app. That's cool. It's a shame that the Linux community is all about Open Source, so won't buy my software.. open source doesn't put bread and butter on my table. And don't tell me I should go with Donations.. because as most donation software I see.. despite being REALLY good, they end up dead, because they stop receiving or don't get at all any donations. And donations isn't much.. usually under 100$ per month.
azrael- 26th July 2012, 17:09 Quote
The Metrofication of Visual Studio 2012 (not for the faint of heart). I'm especially fond of the first (or is that the second?) paragraph where you can tell how much MS cares about its users.

And it gets worse from here. Want (or need) to develop for Windows XP or Server 2003. Sure, no problem. You just need to install VS 2010.

Oh, and lucky you, if you're a hobby or first-time developer. MS has got you covered with Visual Studio Express. You can create any application you want as long as it's a Metro app. Although MS has promised that a VSX 2012 for Windows Desktop will appear eventually.

Last, but not least, the Linux password gripe. Mac OSX does it too, although admittedly with a graphical prompt. What's the problem. And is it truly worse than the UAC?

EDIT: I need to add that while the VS IDE is quite good, VC, for instance, pales compared to GCC.
PCBuilderSven 26th July 2012, 17:21 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by GoodBytes

Ok, find me a program for Linux, that is like Office and have a half decent spell checker and some kind of grammar check to start off.

Office runs fine through wine
Quote:
Originally Posted by GoodBytes

Find me a program that support a service that I can play and download unlimited music legally

Spotify lets you play music and runs in Wine (there is a preview of a native version aswell). I didn't know something existed letting you download songs.
Quote:
Originally Posted by GoodBytes

How about a developer IDE and compiler, like Visual Studio that is competable?

The common suggestions seem to be CodeBlocks or NetBeans (although there are lots of suggestions at http://stackoverflow.com/questions/24109/c-ide-for-linux). Alternatively use GCC and a text editor
Quote:
Originally Posted by GoodBytes

Also, I should not need this at all.

If you're referring to not needing to know how to become root, then yes you do. Otherwise it would be like complaining you can't change settings on Windows without logging in to an administrator account.
Quote:
Originally Posted by GoodBytes

Fine isn't great. Nvidia's are the same.

Drivers will improve when there is a demand for them. With a lack of games for Linux there is no point for high quality drivers, the current ones work for 2D graphics.
Quote:
Originally Posted by GoodBytes

Doesn't Linux already have a marketplace system, which is praised by many, and even said to be first, before Apple. What happened to that?

The "marketplace system" is great but only distributes free applications, it doesn't have a facility to make you pay for them.
schmidtbag 26th July 2012, 17:25 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by GoodBytes
Ok, find me a program for Linux, that is like Office and have a half decent spell checker and some kind of grammar check to start off.
Depends on your distro. LibreOffice does have a decent spell check (IIRC, you're canadian, so you should use en-ca) and it just recently got grammar check if you install the missing libraries.
Quote:
Find me a program that support a service that I can play and download unlimited music legally, and that isn't MOD's, XM's, IT's formats (use VLC to play them, if you have no idea what I am talking about: http://modarchive.org/index.php?request=view_actions_uploads. I kinda prefer 16-bit music over... this. Oh and it's not chip tune.. you wish it was.)

How about a program that allows me to purchase and sync song from one place.. to let's say.. my iPod or iPhone.
I believe Rhythmbox and Banshee can do this - I don't download music much. In linux, you actually don't even need any special software to access ipods or iphones; they're accessible in file browsers but the programs I mentioned can do it in a more user-friendly manner. There's also gsharkdown which is legal depending on what country you're in. VLC also has internet radio. And there's last-fm clients for linux. If by unlimited you mean free and legal, well that's just contradictory and whatever you use in windows for that is likely illegal and not telling you.
Quote:
How about a developer IDE and compiler, like Visual Studio that is competable?
There's plenty of decent ones. I personally use Geany, but since I'm a python developer, I'm not aware if that is missing any core features for c++ or java. There's other similar programs like KATE. Many of these IDEs are expandable via plugins to suit your needs more, but by default they're all pretty good for coding. Keep in mind if you're developing with windows in mind, they might not be as useful as you'd prefer, but if you're focusing on linux or multi-os development then they're just fine.

Quote:
Yes, I am definitely going to program those. All alone... in a few weeks. More reason why I don't like the Linux community. Every time I ask something, nicely too.. I get the same old: "Here is the source code, have fun!". Linux community wants to be popular, but goes all snobbish on everyone, pushing them away... Ubuntu community is the only one, so far that I had a good experience, that they have people that care and are actually helpful. Good for them. No wonder, this distribution of Linux is so popular.
You are both right and wrong about this - it depends on the distro you go for. The more advanced distros such as gentoo, arch, and debian tend to have very rude people who don't like questions that are considered beginner questions. However, I have noticed that the Arch and gentoo forums are VERY friendly if you ask a question that actually affects the future of the distro.

Keep in mind that for the advanced distros, there is such thing as a stupid question. For example, lets say you wanted a drive to automatically mount at boot. That's a legit good question for the ubuntu forums, but is considered something you should already know for a distro like Arch or Gentoo. So when you come to those communities for a question like that, they wonder why you stooped to their advanced level when you can't even handle it.

Quote:
Most isn't all.
Also, I should not need this at all.
In many linux distros today, you don't need the terminal at all. But since you claim one shouldn't be needed at all, well, apparently you don't know windows well enough since there are SEVERAL things in windows that you need the CLI or regedit to do. Regedit is like 1 tiny step above using a CLI.

Quote:
Quote:

AMD's drivers are fine.
Fine isn't great. Nvidia's are the same.
All of linux's GPU drivers (except intel) aren't good enough. In some cases the proprietary AMD drivers are faster than Windows', but they're still littered with problems.
Quote:
Doesn't Linux already have a marketplace system, which is praised by many, and even said to be first, before Apple. What happened to that?
No? The only "marketplace" I'm aware of is Canonical's app store, which is very new and basically limited to just ubuntu. Programs like synaptic package manager somewhat resemble a marketplace and it's package managers like these why I feel linux has a huge advantage over windows.
steveo_mcg 26th July 2012, 17:27 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by GoodBytes
Snip

Goodbytes its quite well know that you are invested in the MS Ecosystem, not every one is. If you don't want to use Linux that's fine, Linux has never tried to take over the world. Believe it or not there is life out side of Windows and money to be made for developing for other platforms.

Now if you don't want to use Linux why continue this conversation? Mr Newell has stated an opinion which runs counter to your experience with Win8, I don't see what relevance the existence of Open Office, Spotifiy, Gimp etc etc has here.
GoodBytes 26th July 2012, 17:31 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by azrael-
The Metrofication of Visual Studio 2012 (not for the faint of heart). I'm especially fond of the first (or is that the second?) paragraph where you can tell how much MS cares about its users.
I don't get it... If you wonder about the layout... the common complain with 2010 is that many companies uses remote desktop a lot.. so 2010 design was a pain to program remotely due to the fancy looking layout. Developers, don't mind Metro'ing of the programs. I personally, prefer 2010 layout, I mean I don't remote desktop, at work we have it set up differently. But it's not terrible either.. sure beats pre-2010. Plus the added features are great.
Quote:

And it gets worse from here. Want (or need) to develop for Windows XP or Server 2003. Sure, no problem. You just need to install VS 2010.
Heuu no. You CAN develop for any Windows.. even Windows 95 and DOS. It's just Visual Studio that won't run under XP. The same as Visual Studio 2010 won't run on 2000, 98, 95, and so on... Heck my software that I am working on for your guys won't support Windows XP.
I won't be surprised if the new Office will follow the same faith.. no XP support. It could also be due to technical reasons. Office for instance uses hardware accelerated graphics using Windows framework. You can only do it like a game... which isn't ideal. The best you can get is panel inside the program that display 3D.. like StarCraft 2 map editor or 3DS Max, but not mix both. Of course, anything is possible, but that's the path that Microsoft picked.

Oh, and lucky you, if you're a hobby or first-time developer. MS has got you covered with Visual Studio Express. You can create any application you want as long as it's a Metro app. Although MS has promised that a VSX 2012 for Windows Desktop will appear eventually.

Last, but not least, the Linux password gripe. Mac OSX does it too, although admittedly with a graphical prompt. What's the problem. And is it truly worse than the UAC?

EDIT: I need to add that while the VS IDE is quite good, VC, for instance, pales compared to GCC.[/QUOTE]
PCBuilderSven 26th July 2012, 17:32 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by GoodBytes

How about a program that allows me to purchase and sync song from one place.. to let's say.. my iPod or iPhone.

Amazon MP3 has a Linux client. You can then sync to your iPod/iPhone with Banshee, Rhythmbox or Amarok.
GoodBytes 26th July 2012, 17:52 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by PCBuilderSven
Office runs fine through wine
If Windows fails, Microsoft fails... It cost billions to operate... you can't just shrink things.
Also Wine isn't a solution, many feature of programs don't work or not well. Games on wine is still a big problem. You have to wait for compatibility, unless you are lucky and it magically works perfectly.
Quote:

Spotify lets you play music and runs in Wine (there is a preview of a native version aswell). I didn't know something existed letting you download songs.
Spotify doesn't have a Linux version, and isn't available in Canada. Also, I can't download unlimited music... I can stream, or make an offline playlist, not just get the music anytime, in anyway.
Quote:

The common suggestions seem to be CodeBlocks or NetBeans (although there are lots of suggestions at http://stackoverflow.com/questions/24109/c-ide-for-linux). Alternatively use GCC and a text editor
All that you provided are quiet primitive environments compare to the flexibility and power of Visual Studio. Their strength however is that it support other languages that Visual Studio don't.
Quote:

If you're referring to not needing to know how to become root, then yes you do. Otherwise it would be like complaining you can't change settings on Windows without logging in to an administrator account.
If you are an administrator type account, you have a click of a button to press to elevate access to what you are doing. That's my point.
Quote:

Drivers will improve when there is a demand for them. With a lack of games for Linux there is no point for high quality drivers, the current ones work for 2D graphics.
Chicken and the egg issue then.


Quote:
Originally Posted by schmidtbag
Depends on your distro. LibreOffice does have a decent spell check (IIRC, you're canadian, so you should use en-ca) and it just recently got grammar check if you install the missing libraries.
The spell check and grammar check is really primitive on LibreOffice.. Still a lot of work needs to be done, sadly.

Quote:
I believe Rhythmbox and Banshee can do this - I don't download music much.
Those are music players that can play internet radio.. not download. Having a built-in web browser with a link to Amazon MP3 store doesn't count. Plus it's only available in the U.S.
Quote:
In linux, you actually don't even need any special software to access ipods or iphones; they're accessible in file browsers but the programs I mentioned can do it in a more user-friendly manner. There's also gsharkdown which is legal depending on what country you're in. VLC also has internet radio. And there's last-fm clients for linux. If by unlimited you mean free and legal, well that's just contradictory and whatever you use in windows for that is likely illegal and not telling you.
True, but you can't buy a song form it. Also I am not looking for internet radio. I am not looking at listening to music, I am looking at acquiring, legally, music, unlimited.
Quote:

You are both right and wrong about this - it depends on the distro you go for. The more advanced distros such as gentoo, arch, and debian tend to have very rude people who don't like questions that are considered beginner questions. However, I have noticed that the Arch and gentoo forums are VERY friendly if you ask a question that actually affects the future of the distro.
Keep in mind that for the advanced distros, there is such thing as a stupid question. For example, lets say you wanted a drive to automatically mount at boot. That's a legit good question for the ubuntu forums, but is considered something you should already know for a distro like Arch or Gentoo. So when you come to those communities for a question like that, they wonder why you stooped to their advanced level when you can't even handle it.
Good point. But that should not happen. That is asking to build a ghetto of sorts.

And that also highlight another problem with Linux.. too many distro. Imagine my dad or mom picking a computer.. and the store clerk goes "Ok so which distro you want: Here is the list to choose from: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Linux_distributions"
Yyyeeaa.. you can see their eyes crossing, right there.
Quote:

In many linux distros today, you don't need the terminal at all. But since you claim one shouldn't be needed at all, well, apparently you don't know windows well enough since there are SEVERAL things in windows that you need the CLI or regedit to do. Regedit is like 1 tiny step above using a CLI.
The only time you use command line in Windows is for specific diagnostics, or use a feature that's really but really specialized. Which, you can find a million and one applications, mostly free, that can give you a nice interface, which can do things simpler by batching action for you.

2 Examples:
-> Windows ISO to USB/DVD tool
-> Many interface software for xcopy

Anyway, this is off topic...
As much as I like competition, and actually want Linux to be better known. My point is that Newell is bashing Windows 8 not for any other reason beside his personal interest (competition to Steam).
And those jumping the gun, going "I am going to Linux".. well this isn't a smart move. And finally the StartScreen isn't all that bad once you you arrange stuff around, like I did (see pictures a few post back).
azrael- 26th July 2012, 17:56 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by GoodBytes
Heuu no. You CAN develop for any Windows.. even Windows 95 and DOS. It's just Visual Studio that won't run under XP. The same as Visual Studio 2010 won't run on 2000, 98, 95, and so on... Heck my software that I am working on for your guys won't support Windows XP.
I won't be surprised if the new Office will follow the same faith.. no XP support. It could also be due to technical reasons. Office for instance uses hardware accelerated graphics using Windows framework. You can only do it like a game... which isn't ideal. The best you can get is panel inside the program that display 3D.. like StarCraft 2 map editor or 3DS Max, but not mix both. Of course, anything is possible, but that's the path that Microsoft picked.
Read what it says on the page I linked to (and what meanwhile has become common knowledge): If you want to develop for Windows prior to Vista you need to install VS2010. The VS2012 tool chain does not support Windows XP or Windows Server 2003. Most professional developers are pissed because of that. MS might no longer care about Windows prior to Vista, but a lot of businesses out there do.

Also, it seems you need to read the blog posts about the VS2012 IDE more carefully. Menus in caps (already linked to) and a dark theme (although this has apparently dropped been now). Ergonomics be damned.
GoodBytes 26th July 2012, 17:56 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by PCBuilderSven
Amazon MP3 has a Linux client. You can then sync to your iPod/iPhone with Banshee, Rhythmbox or Amarok.

US only service and also not unlimited download. Rhythmbox and Amarok, also doesn't have SmartDJ let alone an iTunes Genuis replacement system.
lp rob1 26th July 2012, 18:00 Quote
I could see the flames from the General section! And it is absolutely packed in there!

Right - where to start. Professionals, who need specific professional software. Most of the time, the professional software only runs on Windows (think Autodesk or other CAD software). In these cases, there is no escaping the cold crushing hand of Windows. They are essentially forced to use Windows, as developers will not start developing for other OSes while there is no demand for them, and the professionals will not use the other OSes as they are locked into Windows. Catch 22, huh?

But most of us are not professionals who absolutely require Windows software. Most people (statistically) only use computers as tools to manage, document, and plot out their work. For these purposes, all the OS needs is an office suite (LibreOffice), a web browser, and support for networking technologies. These three things (and more) are perfectly covered by software on Linux, most of which is actually cross-platform software and in use in many Windows companies as well.
This is the category that most of us here fall into. On top of this, one of the main things that brings us together is our love of the PC master-race PC games. And hopefully, with Gabe Newell's pioneering, we can bring mainstream games to Linux too, which increases developer interest in developing for Linux, and positive feedback takes the rest from there. Currently, apart from games, Linux does everything most of us need. In the future, even the games will not limit us.

And once consumer usage of Linux has increases, perhaps to 20% or more, professional companies will start to think about getting in on a slice of the pie and port their professional software to Linux as well. Then professionals, sick of being bullied by Microsoft and Windows, will gradually move to Linux.

Driver support for Linux is another thing you bring up GoodBytes. Perhaps you saw the video of Linus Torvalds swearing at Nvidia? The Linux community cannot change the state of device drivers that easily - open source projects like nouveau are trying their best, but in the end it is up to the device manufacturer to maintain their products. With the increase in game developer interest in the Linux platform, we may see an increase in the quality of ATI and Nvidia drivers.

The one thing that I agree with you about is Visual Studio. If there is one thing that Microsoft got right, it is that. Nothing can come close to the overall finesse of the IDE - although large and sometimes slow, it has features that nothing else can rival.

And now I am off to my nuclear bunker to wait out the storm...
steveo_mcg 26th July 2012, 18:06 Quote
Actually that is a good point, how many users need anything but a browser now? Both MS and Google offer decent web based office suites, basic photo editing is available on-line as is cheap storage.
schmidtbag 26th July 2012, 18:11 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by GoodBytes
The spell check and grammar check is really primitive on LibreOffice.. Still a lot of work needs to be done, sadly.
I'm not sure how the grammar check is, I wouldn't be surprised if it sucked. What's wrong with the spell check? Once in a while it considers a word misspelled that I know is correct, but just add it to the dictionary - if you know you're right, does it matter? Same goes for grammar.
Quote:
Those are music players that can play internet radio.. not download. Having a built-in web browser with a link to Amazon MP3 store doesn't count. Plus it's only available in the U.S.
So what if its a built in browser? Does that remove functionality? It might seem a little lazy but the programs are free and open source after all - much like I said in a previous post, the problem with a lot of linux newcomers is the wrong expectations.
Quote:
Good point. But that should not happen. That is asking to build a ghetto of sorts.

And that also highlight another problem with Linux.. too many distro. Imagine my dad or mom picking a computer.. and the store clerk goes "Ok so which distro you want: Here is the list to choose from: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Linux_distributions"
Yyyeeaa.. you can see their eyes crossing, right there.
I 100% agree with both of your points there - my greatest gripe about linux is there are too many distros that strive for the same purposes and too many package managers. The amount of variation is unnecessary and actually hurts the community. It really bothers me too when people make entire distros for 1 purpose, such as "ubuntu christian edition". Seriously, christian edition? There's also a muslim edition. How hard is it to just create a metapackage which will install all those programs and themes for you?

Quote:
The only time you use command line in Windows is for specific diagnostics, or use a feature that's really but really specialized. Which, you can find a million and one applications, mostly free, that can give you a nice interface, which can do things simpler by batching action for you.
Ok, then you can argue the same about linux. When you go for something deliberately restrictive like GNOME, then you're going to need a CLI or install another program.
Quote:
Anyway, this is off topic...
As much as I like competition, and actually want Linux to be better known. My point is that Newell is bashing Windows 8 not for any other reason beside his personal interest (competition to Steam).
And those jumping the gun, going "I am going to Linux".. well this isn't a smart move. And finally the StartScreen isn't all that bad once you you arrange stuff around, like I did (see pictures a few post back).
I agree - I dislike Windows 8 but it isn't nearly as bad as Newell is making it seem.

Quote:

Last, but not least, the Linux password gripe. Mac OSX does it too, although admittedly with a graphical prompt. What's the problem. And is it truly worse than the UAC?
Uh... linux does have graphical prompts for that, such as gksu or kdesu (which are run automatically). Things like this are important becasue it prevents just anybody from altering the system - this is why linux and Mac are natively more secure than windows. UAC is completely pointless because anybody can just click "allow" and people are so instinctively used to clicking allow that you could allow a program that is actually mallicious. UAC accomplishes nothing, it's MS taking the easy way out of people whining about viruses and crap starting automatically.
azrael- 26th July 2012, 18:23 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by schmidtbag
Uh... linux does have graphical prompts for that, such as gksu or kdesu (which are run automatically). Things like this are important becasue it prevents just anybody from altering the system - this is why linux and Mac are natively more secure than windows. UAC is completely pointless because anybody can just click "allow" and people are so instinctively used to clicking allow that you could allow a program that is actually mallicious. UAC accomplishes nothing, it's MS taking the easy way out of people whining about viruses and crap starting automatically.
I was specifically referring to GB's complaints about the terminal and sudo. Most Mac users probably don't even know that such a thing exists on their computer. :)
asura 26th July 2012, 19:02 Quote
I've said it before, and I'll say it again; when Vectorworks and Photoshop hit Linux, I'll be a happier, Windows free man. However, I'm a realist and realise this is likely to never happen (or so far in the future that these words will be long forgotten) as both applications are ready cross platform, if I'm not happy with Microsoft, I could always move to Apple...
rollo 26th July 2012, 19:20 Quote
Alot of issues could stem from the simple fact if microsoft follows apples route ( which it will on tablets and phones ) then we could see a desktop version of windows that has only one way to access games and applications and that will be through a windows store. Nothing stopping them from doing this legally or technically, Arm version of windows along with tablet and phone versions will most likely be like this already.

That would pretty much destroy most indie devs which steam has allowed to thrive.

Will everyone mass migrate to linux not in a 100 years. This is not a phone where you can switch between andriod versions and everything will work stil. Linux for the most part still lacks a User friendly interface along with easy installation of programs, It also does not support nvidia graphics cards very easily and nvidia has no plans to improve that support.

All the major proffesional applications support Windows and Mac thats it, and the mac support is touch and go in places for certain pro applications. Games are also bearly supported under native Mac and that has a larger market share than linux ( linux has 1.41 % at last check).

Combined data is below for market share ( Source : http://www.netmarketshare.com/operating-system-market-share.aspx?qprid=10)

Mac market share is around 5%
windows has 85% give or take
ios has 5%
andriod 1.5%
linux has 1.4 %

for linux to aquire another 19% in a short period of time would take.

1./ The general none tech consumer to be told it first exists as 99% of people dont even know what linux is.
2./ A more user friendly installation
3./ A it just works scenario that most windows users are used to with things like facebook ect.
4./ GPU Driver support from AMD And Nvidia

Can you really see linux going on an advertising campain, Apple must be on tv every day about there products it has a 10% total market share for everything that it sells.

GL to your linux idea but it wont take off for the 99% who dont even know what it is.
schmidtbag 26th July 2012, 20:10 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by asura
I've said it before, and I'll say it again; when Vectorworks and Photoshop hit Linux, I'll be a happier, Windows free man. However, I'm a realist and realise this is likely to never happen (or so far in the future that these words will be long forgotten) as both applications are ready cross platform, if I'm not happy with Microsoft, I could always move to Apple...
I'm not sure aout vectorworks but photoshop is a weird topic to discuss - adobe themselves posted a poll on their website asking for opinions on a linux release. Within a matter of days, literally THOUSANDS of people replied, which got adobe to close the topic since they understood the desire and demand. However, over a year later and they're STILL like "meh, I don't think this is worth it" when photoshop could be the 1 and only program that prevent people from switching away from windows or mac. Adobe probably has worse priorities than any other software company I can think of, and I'd still say that even if they immediately decided to create the linux client.


@rollo
Linux isn't known because nobody advertises it and almost no OEMs will ship it for desktop PCs. Also, since desktop releases aren't something you can buy, people won't encounter it in stores. However, even if what I just mentioned weren't the case, linux as of right now would still remain unpopular do to the relative user unfriendliness of it, but, it'd be more popular than it is now. More popularity would mean more developers, and more developers could potentially mean more user-friendly tools.

Also, I wouldn't say the nvidia drivers are the problem. Nvidia has the best proprietary drivers, it has most features people need or want except optimus or KMS. AMD has the notorious drivers. As another point to make, linux is only difficult to install things if you decide to avoid using package managers. For example in debian-based distros, it is easier to install programs in linux than windows if you decide to use synaptic, but is harder to install programs if you download them from a web browser.
rocknroll237 26th July 2012, 20:54 Quote
"I'd definitely switch to Linux if there were good support for games/proper drivers for HW. "

I've said exactly the same thing before on another forum and now, I'm one more step close to moving to Linux....
N17 dizzi 26th July 2012, 22:21 Quote
I'll wait and see, Windows 7 support isn't ending soon.
SexyHyde 27th July 2012, 00:30 Quote
as soon as TF2 gets ported, Linux Mint is becoming my main distro! simple as that. "Build it and they will come", thanks for building Gabe!
GoodBytes 27th July 2012, 00:37 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by SexyHyde
as soon as TF2 gets ported, Linux Mint is becoming my main distro! simple as that. "Build it and they will come", thanks for building Gabe!

You still play TF2? I stop playing that game when everyone is cheating, is trying to sale their items over voice and/or chat non stop. There was even an admin that kicked out people who refused to buy his stuff. Talking about spam land.
lp rob1 27th July 2012, 00:56 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by GoodBytes
You still play TF2? I stop playing that game when everyone is cheating, is trying to sale their items over voice and/or chat non stop. There was even an admin that kicked out people who refused to buy his stuff. Talking about spam land.

*facepalm* GoodBytes? Really? I didn't think you would stoop so low as to question another individual's opinions? TF2 is an enjoyable game to many (including me), and no matter what you say will not make us stop playing it. You don't like it? Go play a different game then.

Sorry if that sounded a bit condescending.
Star*Dagger 27th July 2012, 01:23 Quote
The Newell has spoken!

S*D
GoodBytes 27th July 2012, 01:32 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by lp rob1
*facepalm* GoodBytes? Really? I didn't think you would stoop so low as to question another individual's opinions? TF2 is an enjoyable game to many (including me), and no matter what you say will not make us stop playing it. You don't like it? Go play a different game then.

Sorry if that sounded a bit condescending.
I was expressing my opinion of this enjoyable game that I purchased, and got ruined. Yes. All my friends stop playing it, and I was genuinely surprised that still people play this game. I was hopping to be told that I was wrong and things has changed.
loftie 27th July 2012, 01:41 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by schmidtbag
Things like this are important becasue it prevents just anybody from altering the system - this is why linux and Mac are natively more secure than windows. UAC is completely pointless because anybody can just click "allow" and people are so instinctively used to clicking allow that you could allow a program that is actually mallicious. UAC accomplishes nothing, it's MS taking the easy way out of people whining about viruses and crap starting automatically.

Surely regardless of OS, this isn't down to having a password or not. This is down to someone being silly.

Sure, if I let you on my PC and you need the admin password to install stuff, then I know that you can't install porn.exe, or superfunhappysmileyface.exe, but shouldn't the question be more why are you trying to install that sh*t on my PC without asking me first?

Also, (and correct me if I'm wrong, only just started on linux) if you said "Hey what's your password? I want to show you something superepicandcool." and I turn round and say "Oh yea it's qwerty" then the password really hasn't done a thing.

Passwords are just another layer of protection that stupidity can quite easily remove, just like hitting yes on the UAC prompt.

More on topic, I'm glad Valve are doing stuff with Linux, it gives people more options and hopefully pushes forward another OS. As for windows 8, I think it might be bad as an idea, but not bad in practice. Reading goodbytes thoughts on the metro system, I do kind of agree. It'll just take some getting used to I suppose!
SexyHyde 27th July 2012, 03:11 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by GoodBytes
Quote:
Originally Posted by SexyHyde
as soon as TF2 gets ported, Linux Mint is becoming my main distro! simple as that. "Build it and they will come", thanks for building Gabe!

You still play TF2? I stop playing that game when everyone is cheating, is trying to sale their items over voice and/or chat non stop. There was even an admin that kicked out people who refused to buy his stuff. Talking about spam land.

Find the servers and communities that suit you - this goes for all games. I play TF2 almost daily with friends I met on CS:S and BF2. I rarely see cheaters on the servers I play on, and by rarely, I mean maybe one a month, way less then on other games, unless i'm just better than most cheats (don't mean to sound big headed). The buying/selling/trading was a bit bothersome when it was first introduced, mainly as almost everyone was trying it out and some people realised they could get cool stuff for common items from the less knowledgeable. This has stopped almost completely now. I spent 2-3 times more in Mann Co then the Steam store during the sale too. I play other games too, BF3 was my last big game I sunk a bit of time into but after 80 hours of play it has just become stale but its had more time then the various CODs had at 20-40 hours and MOH was similar. I sunk more time into BC2 & QW:ET (~200 hours) and BF2 had almost 1000 hours. TF2 must me doing something right, as I just keep going back game after game.
SexyHyde 27th July 2012, 03:40 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by GoodBytes
It's a shame that the Linux community is all about Open Source, so won't buy my software.. open source doesn't put bread and butter on my table. And don't tell me I should go with Donations.. because as most donation software I see.. despite being REALLY good, they end up dead, because they stop receiving or don't get at all any donations. And donations isn't much.. usually under 100$ per month.

Why dont you check out the average price paid for the humble music bundle http://www.humblebundle.com/ now i'm placing it here early and lets see if its still valid in a few days because atm its MS $7.13, Mac $9.40 & Linux $11.89. Open Source Software doesn't stop people making money, as its about free as in speech rather than free as in beer. It's just a lot of people/companies can also make money and give it away for free. It would seem if you charge, you can get a few users thus a few people that pay. Give it away and charge for support + have donations, you get many users and a few pay + support fees. If its free and good, many pay it seems.
abezors 27th July 2012, 07:03 Quote
Before we get "proper" games support on Linux, we'll have to wait for real driver support from AMD&nVidia. Also, development will have to switch from DirectX to an alternative that works natively in Linux. As said by GoodBytes, OpenGL isn't necessarily the best option. There was an interesting BT article months back about future games bypassing DirectX (an API layer) and using straight-to-hardware code (how console games are written). This also allows higher performance as the API layer isn't in the way slowing things down.

So my guess is that we'll be waiting until direct to hardware programming is the norm, OR some DirectX API alternative, before we see much movement away from Windows. After all, the reason many still use Windows is that it is the only feasible gaming OS currently.
Chicken76 27th July 2012, 10:15 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by PCBuilderSven
Office runs fine through wine
While that may be true, it's not legal to do it that way. The License Agreement prohibits running Office on anything other than Windows. How nice of them to restrict it that way, isn't it?
lp rob1 27th July 2012, 10:17 Quote
AFAIK, consoles still use a form of API. Xbox 360 uses a highly modified version of DX9 - which is why there are lots of modern games not using DX10 or 11. The PS3 on the other hand only has support for OpenGL 2.4. Thus, game developers that write their own engine already use OpenGL - they just need the OS-specific window and event handling backend to match, then they could release games for Linux and Mac very easily. Unfortunately, MS have locked the 360 into using DirectX, so developers need to write for both APIs anyway while they still develop for this generation of consoles.

Of course, the game developers that use a pre-made game engine (think Unreal Engine or Source) have it the easy way. All the (often big) company behind the engine needs to do is port the engine to use OpenGL on Linux - most of the games based on that engine can therefore be ported easily as well. This is what Valve are doing - they are porting their Source engine to Linux, along with Steam, which will make porting all Source games very easy to do.
schmidtbag 27th July 2012, 16:50 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by loftie
Sure, if I let you on my PC and you need the admin password to install stuff, then I know that you can't install porn.exe, or superfunhappysmileyface.exe, but shouldn't the question be more why are you trying to install that sh*t on my PC without asking me first?
*facepalm* you COMPLETELY miss the point of security. The point of UAC or passwords on mac/linux are to prevent people who you DON'T approve of messing with your computer, or prevent the placement/activation of malware. That's like asking "why put a lock on the door to this safe with my life savings in it when you shouldn't be in there in the first place?".
Quote:
Also, (and correct me if I'm wrong, only just started on linux) if you said "Hey what's your password? I want to show you something superepicandcool." and I turn round and say "Oh yea it's qwerty" then the password really hasn't done a thing.
The password DID do something. If you haven't noticed by now, you only have write access to your home folder and no other location in the entire system. You're not even allowed to rename an executable in /usr/bin. When something is asking for the root password, its grating you the privelages of root for the upcomming program. Root in linux/unix is immensely powerful compared to administrator in windows, as it able to unquestionaly do nearly anything you want. Run "sudo rm -rf /" and you'll delete 100% of your system, including the code that is deleting things in the first place. This is why linux/mac wants passwords - people will do stupid things and ruin a system. Windows has been so easy to infect because nearly anywhere in the system can be modified without notification or permission. The problem with UAC is it will react upon something that shouldn't be done by notifying you (this is a problem because this is where people just click "allow" without thinking), whereas with *nix OSes, the action will just simply never happen unless you specifically told it to from the beginning.
Quote:
Passwords are just another layer of protection that stupidity can quite easily remove, just like hitting yes on the UAC prompt.
Unless you auto-signin as root or have a password as useless as qwerty (which nobody in the *nix world suggests), you can't avoid a password. You might not ever need one, but you must have one anyway because it'll still protect your stuff without you knowing.
GoodBytes 27th July 2012, 17:19 Quote
If Windows had the same system, I can assure you, that the most common password would be ' ' without quotes (space). So that it's easy. I would do that. In fact, I do that on my Linux system. It is so cumbersome to put a password. And for what? so that someone can't access my computer? please.
azrael- 27th July 2012, 18:17 Quote
So that something cannot access your computer (or rather, those parts that should not be fiddled with)...
GoodBytes 27th July 2012, 18:35 Quote
No... someone
Remember, I am not talking about home users, which is the issue. No one will use my computer, password or not. I don't use my mother computers either (even though I know her password, which she gave me...) So Having a password system, will make people, at home, have a stupid 1 character password... Space being the easiest, as it's a large button, and hard to forget. This by-passing the point of Linux password. And will not stop people opening: image.jpg.exe form their e-mail, and allow full rights. Even if they put the entire password.. people don't go "Wait.. a picture needs admin? WTF!"... NO they go "I want to see that picture!"
schmidtbag 27th July 2012, 18:52 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by GoodBytes
No... someone
Remember, I am not talking about home users, which is the issue. No one will use my computer, password or not. I don't use my mother computers either (even though I know her password, which she gave me...) So Having a password system, will make people, at home, have a stupid 1 character password... Space being the easiest, as it's a large button, and hard to forget. This by-passing the point of Linux password. And will not stop people opening: image.jpg.exe form their e-mail, and allow full rights. Even if they put the entire password.. people don't go "Wait.. a picture needs admin? WTF!"... NO they go "I want to see that picture!"

You missed 3 key points"
1. It's not just about people using your computer locally. While someone hacking into it seems more unlikely, it isn't impossible. Also it helps slow you down before you decide to make a really big accident that could affect the system.
2. In linux anyway, you don't need a password to run anything that you yourself put in your home folder. You do, however, need to chmod something to become executable, which at times can be a pain but it also ensures that NOTHING will start without your permission. Without a password, any executable can be placed in any part of the system and be auto-started at any time without your permission. This is exactly why Windows is so insecure - malware can (and does) just put itself anywhere it pleases, modify the registry without any restictions, and then when launched, does further damage to your stuff. This can't happen if you don't have access to the rest of the system and if you don't have the password to it. UAC can be avoided by good programmers.
3. Passwords aren't supposed to be easy, they're supposed to be secretive, and the point of being secretive is to protect something. Linux USED to allow accounts with no passwords, but once people realized how vulnerable that makes the average person, they forced a password to exist. When you have an easy password like spacebar, not only does it make hacking your computer very easy but it increases the chances of malware. The difference between a password and UAC is you can't continue without knowing exactly what the password is, whereas UAC will permit anything as long as you click allow, which is just as insecure as pressing spacebar.


BTW, I'm not really paranoid - I have nothing on my computers worth of value to anyone, so someone could freely hack into my stuff and copy/delete everything and while I'd be really mad, my life can continue just fine. But dismissing passwords to do administrative tasks (and yes, any tasks that modify the system outside of your user account no matter what OS is considered administrative) as useless is ridiculously naiive.
blackworx 27th July 2012, 18:59 Quote
Yeah Gabe we get it, blah blah, catastrophe, blah, ecosystem, blah blah platform.

We all know you're just trying to distract our attention from the fact that we're STILL not playing HL3.

I keed, I keed!
SexyHyde 27th July 2012, 19:00 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by GoodBytes
snip

I'm not trying to be funny, but, your sounding rather stupid. Almost all your 'points' have been proven to be at best 'not quite right'. Just put the spade down and get out of the digger, the hole you have dug is MASSIVE. You don't like Linux and its not suitable for you, fine, but its not anything like your making it out to be.
loftie 27th July 2012, 20:09 Quote
@schmidtbag I'll say again that I'm pretty new to linux, so if say I downloaded something malicious on windows, and hit yes on the user prompt, and it fubars my system - Or if you're modd1uk you don't have UAC on and you install something in chinese that fubars your system :D.

Now if we take the same example for linux, download something malicious and run it, will it not ask for access to root prompting for my password, and if I enter would it still not fubar the system?

If you do respond, which I'd like and I'm interested to learn some more :) , I'd say PM me as this thread is going fairly off topic
GoodBytes 27th July 2012, 20:28 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by schmidtbag
You missed 3 key points"
1. It's not just about people using your computer locally. While someone hacking into it seems more unlikely, it isn't impossible. Also it helps slow you down before you decide to make a really big accident that could affect the system.
2. In linux anyway, you don't need a password to run anything that you yourself put in your home folder. You do, however, need to chmod something to become executable, which at times can be a pain but it also ensures that NOTHING will start without your permission. Without a password, any executable can be placed in any part of the system and be auto-started at any time without your permission. This is exactly why Windows is so insecure - malware can (and does) just put itself anywhere it pleases, modify the registry without any restictions, and then when launched, does further damage to your stuff. This can't happen if you don't have access to the rest of the system and if you don't have the password to it. UAC can be avoided by good programmers.
3. Passwords aren't supposed to be easy, they're supposed to be secretive, and the point of being secretive is to protect something. Linux USED to allow accounts with no passwords, but once people realized how vulnerable that makes the average person, they forced a password to exist. When you have an easy password like spacebar, not only does it make hacking your computer very easy but it increases the chances of malware. The difference between a password and UAC is you can't continue without knowing exactly what the password is, whereas UAC will permit anything as long as you click allow, which is just as insecure as pressing spacebar.


BTW, I'm not really paranoid - I have nothing on my computers worth of value to anyone, so someone could freely hack into my stuff and copy/delete everything and while I'd be really mad, my life can continue just fine. But dismissing passwords to do administrative tasks (and yes, any tasks that modify the system outside of your user account no matter what OS is considered administrative) as useless is ridiculously naiive.
Quote:
Originally Posted by SexyHyde
I'm not trying to be funny, but, your sounding rather stupid. Almost all your 'points' have been proven to be at best 'not quite right'. Just put the spade down and get out of the digger, the hole you have dug is MASSIVE. You don't like Linux and its not suitable for you, fine, but its not anything like your making it out to be.

To both,
You are not getting what I am trying to say. My point is that lay people (average people), at home, if they know that they'll need to put passwords everywhere, then they won't put a strong password, they'll put something silly, so that it's easy to remember, and quick to do.
My mom password is 1 hair from abc123. Why? She already needs to remember several passwords at works that keep changes.... she has enough of passwords. Already she wanted initially no password to log-in, and I kinda push her to have SOMETHING. Now I am not too worried about her computer, because I know what she does, and it's nothing important, and and I have a strong (for home), network security, and all computers fully updated, and the hole set of security package.

Lay people, aren't US. We have the brain for this kind of things.. we are used to it, we like complicated things, and tweak the **** of things, and gets our hands dirty. We are computer enthusiasts, and damn proud of it. It's not the same thing for lay people. They want simple, they just want to do what they want. If you try to complicate things.. they'll find ways (stupid ways) to go around it. My experience in IT supports what I am saying about lay people.

In conclusion, having you to enter a password, won't be "more secure" than hitting "Allow" button on the UAC dialog box.
SexyHyde 28th July 2012, 00:14 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by GoodBytes
To both,
You are not getting what I am trying to say. My point is that lay people (average people), at home, if they know that they'll need to put passwords everywhere, then they won't put a strong password, they'll put something silly, so that it's easy to remember, and quick to do.
My mom password is 1 hair from abc123. Why? She already needs to remember several passwords at works that keep changes.... she has enough of passwords. Already she wanted initially no password to log-in, and I kinda push her to have SOMETHING. Now I am not too worried about her computer, because I know what she does, and it's nothing important, and and I have a strong (for home), network security, and all computers fully updated, and the hole set of security package.

Lay people, aren't US. We have the brain for this kind of things.. we are used to it, we like complicated things, and tweak the **** of things, and gets our hands dirty. We are computer enthusiasts, and damn proud of it. It's not the same thing for lay people. They want simple, they just want to do what they want. If you try to complicate things.. they'll find ways (stupid ways) to go around it. My experience in IT supports what I am saying about lay people.

In conclusion, having you to enter a password, won't be "more secure" than hitting "Allow" button on the UAC dialog box.

My dad, called 'millennium bug' by his colleagues for his ability to break any computer at work trying to do simple things, I'm sure he would be in your group 'lay people', well I decided to give him a linux computer to see if it helped, as i was fed up with fixing his windows computer. apart from having to change openoffice to save in microsoft office formats he didn't really have any issues. That was Suse 8.2 back in 2003/4. He still doesn't really know anything about computers but uses the ubuntu install on his dual boot laptop more than XP, and he only has that as he has a work program that will only work on XP. I know of two people that used his ubuntu computer and have said it was good, i dont know anyone that has had trouble with it, and it will have been used by at least 30 people, probably 50+.
GoodBytes 28th July 2012, 00:22 Quote
You are comparing with XP. XP does not have User Account Control. Everyone run as full administrator by default... and if you don't... well expect issues with non-enterprise ready software. It's a mess of an OS, and has more security holes than a wood log infested with termites.

It's for a reason Microsoft scrap it and pretty much restarted from scratch. 6 years later.. you have Vista, then Windows 7.

The place I used to work, when I used to work as IT before doing soft. dev. When we switch to Windows 7 from XP, we saw a drastic reduction in malware/virus infection (it's at 0 since Win7 was adapted, which was a few months after its release), and also we saved a lot on the electric bill, thanks to Windows 7 (well Vista) improved power management system. Anyway, XP is a very old OS, based on the original NT, that is a 1993 OS. All it's weaknesses in security are well known by people doing these viruses, and malware. A famous virus attack we had in XP, was people opening an e-mail an executable, a fake anti-virus, which, without restart, can turn the account, despite on the domain under very restrictive policies (but non a mandatory profile, as we wanted program settings and Windows settings to carry with them), to become Administrator, delete all personal files, and places it's viruses, pop-up malware, and redirect websites to a proxy server to, possibly, start stealing bank account information.
SexyHyde 28th July 2012, 01:03 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by GoodBytes
You are comparing with XP. XP does not have User Account Control. Everyone run as full administrator by default... and if you don't... well expect issues with non-enterprise ready software. It's a mess of an OS, and has more security holes than a wood log infested with termites.

It's for a reason Microsoft scrap it and pretty much restarted from scratch. 6 years later.. you have Vista, then Windows 7.

The place I used to work, when I used to work as IT before doing soft. dev. When we switch to Windows 7 from XP, we saw a drastic reduction in malware/virus infection (it's at 0 since Win7 was adapted, which was a few months after its release), and also we saved a lot on the electric bill, thanks to Windows 7 (well Vista) improved power management system. Anyway, XP is a very old OS, based on the original NT, that is a 1993 OS. All it's weaknesses in security are well known by people doing these viruses, and malware. A famous virus attack we had in XP, was people opening an e-mail an executable, a fake anti-virus, which, without restart, can turn the account, despite on the domain under very restrictive policies (but non a mandatory profile, as we wanted program settings and Windows settings to carry with them), to become Administrator, delete all personal files, and places it's viruses, pop-up malware, and redirect websites to a proxy server to, possibly, start stealing bank account information.

No, I was not comparing to XP. I was pointing out that I gave a 'lay person' linux and they were fine. It was also a linux from 8 years ago. I was also pointing out that my dad uses his ubuntu laptop with people at his work (they have to use his laptop to complete work) and they just don't have a problem using it. If you need bespoke software yeah linux might not be viable but for most people, bar gamers (at least till valve get the ball rolling), linux is perfectly fine. There are some things you need to do differently but they are not as much as Windows 8.
stuartwood89 28th July 2012, 18:23 Quote
VirtualBox, or dual boot. When I first used Ubuntu, I fell in love with it immediately due to its easy customisation and flexibility. When presented with the problem of not being able to use Photoshop (GIMP is terrible), I just ran Windows in a VM and ran Photoshop in there. This isn't the most elegant answer, as files are contained on the VM which are not accessible from the host OS, but that what network sharing/cloud storage is for. I ran Sketchup 8 in WINE with absolutely no issues whatsoever, and Kerkythea has a native Linux release.

The problem with open source software is that there can be gaps in continuity. The patchwork can lead to a very powerful and feature rich application, however the user interface is god awful. Take GIMP for example - it's very good at what it does, but it is very fiddly and the separate windows for each toolbox is annoying to work with. Blender is actually very powerful for free software, but the interface is cramped and confusing.

On the MS and Apple side however, programs have this visual polish which seem to suggest that they are better than they actually are. They make the interfaces simple because they know that the layman will be using it, and it works. You open up GIMP/OO.o/Blender and think 'WTF', then close it and eventually go back to Windows because it has 'better' apps. If OpenOffice had a lick of paint, I'm sure it would be just as popular as MSOffice.

On the topic of gaming, the 'chicken and egg' analogy is right. You need one for the other to work. Someone above mentioned that the PS3 used OpenGL. I don't see the problem here with porting these over to Linux (I know that PS3 uses a different architecture to the x86 platform used on PC, but that doesn't stop console to PC ports normally). The same applies to XBox games, if developers will make a game for XBox, PS3 and PC, then they have to make it work for OpenGL, DirectX, and not to mention the separate architectures across all three platforms. Perhaps I'm missing something here, but it's probably more down to whether it's worth it for the sake of a 'handful' of Linux users, bearing in mind that this is only a handful because devs only make games for Windows. The same principle applies for professional software.

Perhaps it's down to the fact that developers of commercial software have an aversion to developing for those who are accustomed to open source software, people who won't possibly pay for something when they can use a free alternative. Let's not forget that GIMP, Blender and OpenOffice are also available for Windows.
lp rob1 28th July 2012, 20:45 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by stuartwood89
Take GIMP for example - it's very good at what it does, but it is very fiddly and the separate windows for each toolbox is annoying to work with.

GIMP 2.8 has single-window mode, which solves that problem. This is an example of what open-source software can achieve - the community wanted single-window mode, it generated high interest in the users of GIMP, and therefore the developers added it into the release. With a commercial product you usually find there has to be auditing and many other corporate decisions that must be made before such a change can come into a product. And it is often for a fee.
GoodBytes 28th July 2012, 20:58 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by lp rob1
GIMP 2.8 has single-window mode, which solves that problem.

Tried it, while it's better, it's not much improvement. If you scale the window smaller, the layout isn't adjusted, it just cuts the layout out. Also, the interface is still panel based on that mode. What I mean is that all they did, is make the picture window, have the tool bars and add gray bars on the left and right of the window. anything you open, shows as external panels which you need to pin, and the side gray bar that you pin panels are, isn't scalable.

Still a lot of work is needed. But it's a step in the right direction.
stuartwood89 28th July 2012, 23:59 Quote
@lp rob1:

You raise a good point. The beauty of open source software is that if you don't like something, you can fix it. Even better is the fact that you can submit a potential enhancement and it might actually get applied.

The single-window mode also supports my original point. If the interface was any good, then I would have noticed this and applied it myself. This isn't a stab at Linux, but more towards the devs who make the software that Linux depends on to provide a suitable working environment for the average user that can match Windows.

GoodBytes: I see your point, however you seem to know your stuff, so be part of the solution. Saying "why should I?" after complaining about something is what halts progress and keeps open source software in the dark ages.
Guinevere 29th July 2012, 19:02 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by PCBuilderSven
Quote:
Originally Posted by GoodBytes

-> No proper replacement or alternative applications exists for many programs

I've never had a problem not finding an application for something. Besides, if it doesn't exist, code it and then it does.

Such a typical response from a fully signed up member of the linux fan club.... If you're OS doesn't do what you want then just write your own software.

Classic! That may be 100% impractical but it's much more educational than using an OS with a wider set of options.

In fact every single single you've said has the typical pro-linux slant to it. Be honest, linux may be clever and viable for some,but it's not as user friendly and 'muggle proof' as windows or OSX.
fdbh96 29th July 2012, 22:29 Quote
This is hardly a surprise, since everyone might end up buying their games through the app store (I know I would). Personally I would never switch to linux, windows is just so easy :)
SexyHyde 30th July 2012, 11:47 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by GoodBytes

Such a typical response from a fully signed up member of the linux fan club.... If you're OS doesn't do what you want then just write your own software.

agree!
Quote:
Originally Posted by GoodBytes

Be honest, linux may be clever and viable for some,but it's not as user friendly and 'muggle proof' as windows or OSX.

'muggle proof' your going to have to explain this. If you mean what i think you mean, i have typed this with my toes, due to double facepalming!
azrael- 30th July 2012, 12:08 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by SexyHyde
'muggle proof' your going to have to explain this. If you mean what i think you mean, i have typed this with my toes, due to double facepalming!
Apparently Guinevere, because it was she who posted this last bit, believes that ordinary people are too dumb to use a real pc. The sad thing is that dumbing things down, in this case the Windows/Metro 8 user interface, turns this into a kind of a selffulfilling prophecy.
lp rob1 30th July 2012, 12:58 Quote
The few 'normal people' who I have shown Linux to (it was Ubuntu 11.04 back then I think) caught on really well to the slightly different interface, had no problems using the different software, and even loved the cool Compiz effects. Installing software through a package manager is the easiest way possible to install software - in this regard Windows is actually 'harder' than most distros. I have proven time and time again that a different user interface does not push people away - in fact they often spend a little time getting used to it so they can work with it more efficiently.

I recently completed a Linux distro, based on Ubuntu but with custom themes, programs and user interface. I was making it look similar to Gnome 2, but in XFCE. Menu button on a bar at the top, clock at the top, windows opening in the task bar at the bottom. This was the Karoshi Client 2.0 release (see my sig for The Linux Schools Project). After installing it in 2 computer rooms at my school and watching my classmates use the new client, 95% had no problems whatsoever. No asking for help, no moaning about how bad it is, nothing. They just sat down, acknowledged the new look, and carried on. The 5% who were not able to use it straight away asked classmates for help, and were soon on their way.
I know this case does not represent the adult populus, as children are usually more technologically friendly, but if it is this easy for children, then all adults will need is half an hour working around the user interface, before they use it just as effectively as the previous OS.
(In this example the previous OS was Karoshi Client 1.0, but it very closely resembled Windows, and can thus represent Windows in this example)
GoodBytes 30th July 2012, 17:34 Quote
People don't moan and complain in a school environment. At university I already entered a Linux lab. Did I complain? No. Would I use it over Windows if I had the choice? Yes. I came in, I used what I had to use to get my work done. Did I enjoy it? No. It got the job done, all other labs where full, I had to shut up, and get work done. Because complaining, won't magically turn the system into Windows.

The better news, is that the following year, now all labs at university have dual boot Windows/Linux on them. I guess many people complained... and the labs are for engineering and computer science. Since then, I see 99.9% running Windows on them.

I put Linux in my dad and mom computer in the early days. Mainly due, me not having money to buy a Windows license. My parents used it just fine. The only I did is made it look closer to Windows, with the task bar and all. But nothing drastic. It was clearly different. The day my mom and dad needed Windows for some programs that didn't run on wine. I put them Windows, which was a few years later... and had money for buying licenses. And the only thing I got, when asked what do they think, is how nice it is, how easier it is to get things done, and how easier it is to read text.
fdbh96 30th July 2012, 19:30 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by GoodBytes
People don't moan and complain in a school environment. At university I already entered a Linux lab. Did I complain? No. Would I use it over Windows if I had the choice? Yes. I came in, I used what I had to use to get my work done. Did I enjoy it? No. It got the job done, all other labs where full, I had to shut up, and get work done. Because complaining, won't magically turn the system into Windows.

The better news, is that the following year, now all labs at university have dual boot Windows/Linux on them. I guess many people complained... and the labs are for engineering and computer science. Since then, I see 99.9% running Windows on them.

I put Linux in my dad and mom computer in the early days. Mainly due, me not having money to buy a Windows license. My parents used it just fine. The only I did is made it look closer to Windows, with the task bar and all. But nothing drastic. It was clearly different. The day my mom and dad needed Windows for some programs that didn't run on wine. I put them Windows, which was a few years later... and had money for buying licenses. And the only thing I got, when asked what do they think, is how nice it is, how easier it is to get things done, and how easier it is to read text.

Our school just moved from windows to something different :O and pretty much everyone complained and they are planning to move back for next year :D.
Mrmelon98 1st August 2012, 18:19 Quote
Windows 8 is a more limited gimmicky windows 7 basically...
GoodBytes 1st August 2012, 18:38 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mrmelon98
Windows 8 is a more limited gimmicky windows 7 basically...

How is it more limited, when you have large performance improvements, and much more features than Windows 7?
Log in

You are not logged in, please login with your forum account below. If you don't already have an account please register to start contributing.



Discuss in the forums