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Torvalds slams Nvidia's Linux support

Torvalds slams Nvidia's Linux support

Linus Torvald's message for Nvidia isn't terribly polite, but it certainly gets across the strength of his feelings.

Linus Torvalds, the man behind the Linux kernel, has called Nvidia 'the single worst company we have ever dealt with,' raising eyebrows - and his middle finger - during a presentation at the Aalto Centre for Entrepreneurship in Finland.

Attendees at the speech were given the chance to ask Torvalds, who created the Linux kernel which underpins the open-source operating system in his spare time just to see if it could be done, any question they liked. Around fifty minutes into the session, one audience member queried the lack of support given to Linux by graphics giant Nvidia - and was treated to a vitriolic rant by the penguin-loving coder.

Before we get on to the response itself, some background: Nvidia joined the Linux Foundation back in March, giving users of the operating system hope that it would take to heart the demand for an open source driver and enhanced platform support. Currently, Nvidia provides a 'binary blob' proprietary driver which enables the vast majority of functionality embedded in its GPUs, with one exception: the Optimus GPU-swapping technology designed to save power on laptops and other portable devices.

Using Windows, Optimus works as promised: 2D desktop work is carried out on the integrated graphics, with the Nvidia GPU powered off to save battery; load a 3D application and the discrete GPU is switched on, giving power where it's needed.

Under Linux, things aren't quite so simple. A third-party backwards-engineered hack is required to enable Optimus support, and then only for selected applications. It effectively hobbles high-end laptops when used with Linux, and it's something Nvidia has been slow to address - telling us at CeBIT last year that 'Linux is not a focus' for the company.

Nvidia's membership of the Linux Foundation promised to change all that, but Torvalds' response to the attendee's question reveals all is not going smoothly. '[Nvidia] has been one of the worst trouble spots we've had with hardware manufacturers,' Torvalds claimed, according to a partial transcript prepared by Phoronix. 'Nvidia has been the single worst company we have ever dealt with.'

Those are powerful words, but Torvalds clearly felt they didn't get his strength of feeling across - which is presumably why he decided to end his response with a raised middle finger and the message 'Nvidia: F*** YOU.'

Clearly, Nvidia needs to do some serious work on its reputation in the Linux community following Torvalds' outburst. Its rival AMD offers both a binary-blob driver and an open source version, while the only open source code available for Nvidia graphics cards comes from the community reverse-engineering Nouveau project.

If you want to see Torvalds' comments in context, here's the full video - the Nvidia-bashing begins at just over 49 minutes in.

57 Comments

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Morrius 18th June 2012, 11:38 Quote
I doubt they'll be any more likely to help now.
Showerhead 18th June 2012, 11:40 Quote
Not like they could be any less help.
fdbh96 18th June 2012, 11:45 Quote
I can see why Linux isn't their main focus, its hardly a big target market, and I probably wouldn't want to work with that guy either :/
MjFrosty 18th June 2012, 11:47 Quote
Yeah, because AMD drivers are fantastic for Linux.
Phalanx 18th June 2012, 11:49 Quote
Yeah how DARE nVidia pick what they want to support themselves? The barefaced cheek! And that olive branch Linus is holding out will he- hang on, that's no olive branch!
faugusztin 18th June 2012, 11:59 Quote
So when NVIDIA uses Linux for Tegra, it is OK. But when Linus (and Linux community) asks a little bit of something in return, then Linus is the bad guy when he is disappointed that even after years, major features are still not supported. :|

And Phalanx - NVIDIA drivers do exists for Linux, the issue is that major features are left out making it a uncompetitive option. Not because Linux doesn't support such features, but because NVIDIA decided not to include that feature in their drivers.
kylew 18th June 2012, 12:01 Quote
It's starting to become more and more apparent that companies don't like working with nVidia because their support is awful, and they as a company are awful. Completely goes against the legions of people who have this weird love affair for nVidia and constantly go on about how great and "amazing" they are.
MjFrosty 18th June 2012, 12:04 Quote
Nvidia as a company have generally terrible PR and constantly make terrible decisions with patenting etc

Fortunately what they sell for the most part works really well. So I couldn't care less
Phalanx 18th June 2012, 12:07 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by faugusztin
So when NVIDIA uses Linux for Tegra, it is OK. But when Linus (and Linux community) asks a little bit of something in return, then Linus is the bad guy when he is disappointed that even after years, major features are still not supported. :|

And Phalanx - NVIDIA drivers do exists for Linux, the issue is that major features are left out making it a uncompetitive option. Not because Linux doesn't support such features, but because NVIDIA decided not to include that feature in their drivers.

Just because a company doesn't decide to focus on a particular option, doesn't mean supposed figureheads can act like pricks by sticking their middle finger up in a public display. That's not how it's done.

And as for the linux drivers, I understand they are there and certain parts are missing, but perhaps nVidia have more pressing matters at hand at the moment.
faugusztin 18th June 2012, 12:10 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by Phalanx
Just because a company doesn't decide to focus on a particular option, doesn't mean supposed figureheads can act like pricks by sticking their middle finger up in a public display. That's not how it's done.

Figurehead is not a CEO :). CEO can't act like that, but he is not one of them.
Phalanx 18th June 2012, 12:15 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by faugusztin
Figurehead is not a CEO :). CEO can't act like that, but he is not one of them.

I wasn't pulling in whether he was a business or not, but if *I* was the nVidia CEO I'd tell him where to stuff his Linux support, figurehead or not.
Snips 18th June 2012, 12:42 Quote
What's Linux?
Fujukami 18th June 2012, 14:03 Quote
Who cares either way? Linux-based OS systems are a small target demographic. Optimise the bugs for the majority of the users, and when you have the time to iron out the problems on other platforms (add features and so on).

As for the middle finger, I'd say its to draw attention on himself more than to actually convey any message.
[USRF]Obiwan 18th June 2012, 14:18 Quote
And you forget to mention the response of a Nvidia developer somewhere around 1.00.30 into the video. Where this guy thanked Linus for "giving him the finger". And then saying he and other Nvidia programmers are working on a big opensource project.
Morrius 18th June 2012, 14:21 Quote
Damn, I was really looking forward to installing Linux on my toaster and playing Max Payne 3 on it!
Deders 18th June 2012, 14:24 Quote
fdbh96 18th June 2012, 15:59 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by Snips
What's Linux?

This pretty much sums it up, I would much rather have better SLI support or surround support than Optimus for Linux.
Aracos 18th June 2012, 18:43 Quote
"I like being outrageous at times. I guarantee you, if you make that video available on the internet there will be thousands of people who are really upset and offended. I like offending people because I think people who get offended should be offended."

I think he was correct.
Glix 18th June 2012, 19:10 Quote
You guys completely missed the point...

What's Linux? See that droid you are using? That's built on linux.

Would be interesting to get his views on Nvidia rival Imagination Tech.
Er-El 18th June 2012, 19:13 Quote
Hopefully this will nudge Nvidia into finally giving support for the battery saving feature :)
Sloth 18th June 2012, 19:39 Quote
A lot of reactions so far have really surprised me. So little Linux love on a PC enthusiast forum? Power saving features are quite important as laptops are a [relatively] common system to install Linux on, its lower demands provide a smoother experience on mobile hardware and saves battery life. Take away other battery saving features and you ruin that advantage.

At first glance the lack of would be understandable, just as with the recent MS vs. AMD article if you want someone to spend money on your features then you need to either given incentive or use some muscle. But given that Nvidia has voluntarily joined the Linux Foundation I can see where Torvalds is coming from.
Beasteh 18th June 2012, 21:09 Quote
Well, looks like Linus got the attention he was seeking...

The irony is, nVidia's drivers for Linux seem to be more stable than the ones for Windows.
hyperion 18th June 2012, 21:38 Quote
I'm trying to watch the whole video and I'm losing the will to live with this guy's long *** introduction.
yougotkicked 18th June 2012, 22:31 Quote
For everyone saying Linux is ignored b/c it's a small demographic; do you know WHY it's a small demographic? drivers have always been one of Linux's weak points, and this continued lack of support from major players is one of the only real reasons for enthusiasts like us not to use Linux.

A manufacturer like Nvidia deciding not to give full support to Linux is a bit like a university offering 90% of the classes needed for a given major. So close at yet so far.

P.S. Linux is NOT that small of a demographic, according to http://www.w3schools.com/browsers/browsers_stats.asp Linux accounts for 5% of installed operating systems. That's more than windows vista and about 60% as much as mac. It's not huge, but 5% of all the worlds computers is not insignificant.
Aracos 18th June 2012, 22:44 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fujukami
As for the middle finger, I'd say its to draw attention on himself more than to actually convey any message.

Draw attention to himself when he is doing a question and answer session? He is already the focal point so he doesn't draw more attention to himself. He is a blunt person and says what he thinks. This was merely a reaction to the frustration of Nvidia taking without giving, they're happy to try and take over the smartphone and tablet market with Tegra with Android (Linux) but they aren't willing to give full support of their laptop/desktop hardware on Linux.
Star*Dagger 19th June 2012, 01:24 Quote
Linus is so awesome, this will undermine the reputation of nVidia and cost them big time, because while linux users are only 3% of PC users, they are the TOP 3% in terms of skill, programming and know how.

Expect nVidia to fix this in 2012!
fdbh96 19th June 2012, 08:43 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by Star*Dagger
Linus is so awesome, this will undermine the reputation of nVidia and cost them big time, because while linux users are only 3% of PC users, they are the TOP 3% in terms of skill, programming and know how.

Expect nVidia to fix this in 2012!

They should be able to sort their own drivers out then...
Gareth Halfacree 19th June 2012, 08:54 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by fdbh96
They should be able to sort their own drivers out then...
They are, and they have - did you not see the section of the article where Linux users, sick of being ignored by Nvidia, created the Nouveau Project to backwards-engineer the closed-source drivers and create open-source equivalents?

They're not feature-complete - it's a bit hard when the company that makes the product won't tell you how anything works - but it's perfectly possible to get hardware-accelerated 3D rendering on Nvidia hardware using the community Nouveau drivers.
noizdaemon666 19th June 2012, 09:43 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by Star*Dagger
Linus is so awesome, this will undermine the reputation of nVidia and cost them big time, because while linux users are only 3% of PC users, they are the TOP 3% in terms of skill, programming and know how.

Expect nVidia to fix this in 2012!

So Linux users are more knowledgable than Windows or Mac people? I'm fairly certain that not all Linux users know more than basic stuff about computers.

Also, even if you correct, why would nvidia feel threatened by some skilled, knowledgable people?
MjFrosty 19th June 2012, 09:53 Quote
Headache.

I think the real question is why WOULD a graphics card manufacturer want to be more than a little invested in an operating system that, and I can't stress this part enough, has little to no available application.

You know, like namely games and stuff. Why should every company just open their doors to free looky lookys into their drivers and software? They're an actual company after all. Try using AMD drivers on Linux anyway, they're close to awful. So opening your doors to spare time hermits who want to improve things, doesn't always give results apparently.
law99 19th June 2012, 12:00 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by noizdaemon666
Quote:
Originally Posted by Star*Dagger
Linus is so awesome, this will undermine the reputation of nVidia and cost them big time, because while linux users are only 3% of PC users, they are the TOP 3% in terms of skill, programming and know how.

Expect nVidia to fix this in 2012!

So Linux users are more knowledgable than Windows or Mac people? I'm fairly certain that not all Linux users know more than basic stuff about computers.

Also, even if you correct, why would nvidia feel threatened by some skilled, knowledgable people?

True...but not all qualified it professionals seem to know anything about PCs or Windows, let alone linux. Also, in pure percentage terms, a higher aMount of linux users are probably competent compared to windows or Mac users. It's in the nature of running the system.
yougotkicked 19th June 2012, 23:45 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by MjFrosty
Headache.

I think the real question is why WOULD a graphics card manufacturer want to be more than a little invested in an operating system that, and I can't stress this part enough, has little to no available application.

Linux isn't the barely-known/used platform devoid of merit you seem to think it is.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but the majority of all servers run on Linux, many supercomputers and clusters rely on a customized Linux kernel, and about 5% of all computers on the net use it (for reference, Mac OS accounts for 9%). And the entire CSCI department at my college run's off of it, which is rather common practice according to my friends at other schools.

There are many applications for Linux that benefit from advanced driver features, especially the power saving capabilities of the feature at issue here: many netbooks and laptops use Linux to cut costs, and supporting this feature under Linux would help extend battery life on units packing discrete GPUs.
Sloth 19th June 2012, 23:58 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by MjFrosty
Headache.

I think the real question is why WOULD a graphics card manufacturer want to be more than a little invested in an operating system that, and I can't stress this part enough, has little to no available application.

You know, like namely games and stuff. Why should every company just open their doors to free looky lookys into their drivers and software? They're an actual company after all. Try using AMD drivers on Linux anyway, they're close to awful. So opening your doors to spare time hermits who want to improve things, doesn't always give results apparently.
After wondering the same thing the conclusion I was reached was: they should have figured that out before joining the Linux Foundation. Nvidia is paying to be a member and part of the terms of membership is supporting Linux in a way applicable to the company's abilities, graphics hardware and software in the case of Nividia.
JA12 20th June 2012, 09:52 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by Snips
What's Linux?

In every house of every man
in every company's crucial gear
in every internet voice, in every ban
yet ignorance is what we hear.
steveo_mcg 20th June 2012, 10:09 Quote
Nice :D
will_123 20th June 2012, 12:21 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by JA12
Quote:
Originally Posted by Snips
What's Linux?

In every house of every man
in every company's crucial gear
in every internet voice, in every ban
yet ignorance is what we hear.

Ha great banter. Its true tho a fortune is being made of the back of the tegra chips which are running android. They should be putting more back in because of this. Both AMD and NVIDIA are in linux foundation but does that really mean that much...?

I wish they would put much more effort into the drivers. But with the announcement of unity engine 4 on Linux hopefully it might give them the boot up the arse they need!

Bill
MjFrosty 20th June 2012, 12:35 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by yougotkicked
Linux isn't the barely-known/used platform devoid of merit you seem to think it is.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but the majority of all servers run on Linux, many supercomputers and clusters rely on a customized Linux kernel, and about 5% of all computers on the net use it (for reference, Mac OS accounts for 9%). And the entire CSCI department at my college run's off of it, which is rather common practice according to my friends at other schools.

There are many applications for Linux that benefit from advanced driver features, especially the power saving capabilities of the feature at issue here: many netbooks and laptops use Linux to cut costs, and supporting this feature under Linux would help extend battery life on units packing discrete GPUs.

Majority of servers do not run on Linux, a certain percentage do. Don't exaggerate! Not that it has anything to do with a GPU manufacturer handing out it's work to bedroom programmers.

I know the Linux community isn't as small as I may be making out, and appreciate some of the benifits of an open source platform regardless of whether or not they interest me, but the point still stands. Say if you designed something from the ground up to sell on, and someone came up to you and said; "Look mate, any chance we can have a quick look at your blue prints? Really want to put this to use on this little project I've been working on in my spare time." You'd be dubious at least if not meet it with a few swift words. I personally think theres a lot more to this than meets the eye, and people shouldn't be so quick to judge the larger corporation for not wanting to give in to what is a huge favour essentially
will_123 20th June 2012, 13:23 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by MjFrosty
Quote:
Originally Posted by yougotkicked
Linux isn't the barely-known/used platform devoid of merit you seem to think it is.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but the majority of all servers run on Linux, many supercomputers and clusters rely on a customized Linux kernel, and about 5% of all computers on the net use it (for reference, Mac OS accounts for 9%). And the entire CSCI department at my college run's off of it, which is rather common practice according to my friends at other schools.

There are many applications for Linux that benefit from advanced driver features, especially the power saving capabilities of the feature at issue here: many netbooks and laptops use Linux to cut costs, and supporting this feature under Linux would help extend battery life on units packing discrete GPUs.

Majority of servers do not run on Linux, a certain percentage do. Don't exaggerate! Not that it has anything to do with a GPU manufacturer handing out it's work to bedroom programmers.

I know the Linux community isn't as small as I may be making out, and appreciate some of the benifits of an open source platform regardless of whether or not they interest me, but the point still stands. Say if you designed something from the ground up to sell on, and someone came up to you and said; "Look mate, any chance we can have a quick look at your blue prints? Really want to put this to use on this little project I've been working on in my spare time." You'd be dubious at least if not meet it with a few swift words. I personally think theres a lot more to this than meets the eye, and people shouldn't be so quick to judge the larger corporation for not wanting to give in to what is a huge favour essentially

Yet they are happy to make big bucks off said "bedroom project"...? And the majority do servers do run Linux. Major corps tend to use Windows pretty much for exchange, other than high level businesses most use some form of Linux.

And last time I checked Red Hat & Ubuntu were making a fair bit cash off "little projects".

Bill
BLC 20th June 2012, 14:03 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by MjFrosty
Majority of servers do not run on Linux, a certain percentage do. Don't exaggerate! Not that it has anything to do with a GPU manufacturer handing out it's work to bedroom programmers.

I know the Linux community isn't as small as I may be making out, and appreciate some of the benifits of an open source platform regardless of whether or not they interest me, but the point still stands. Say if you designed something from the ground up to sell on, and someone came up to you and said; "Look mate, any chance we can have a quick look at your blue prints? Really want to put this to use on this little project I've been working on in my spare time." You'd be dubious at least if not meet it with a few swift words. I personally think theres a lot more to this than meets the eye, and people shouldn't be so quick to judge the larger corporation for not wanting to give in to what is a huge favour essentially

Ok, I really hope you're trolling, but here goes anyway... A quick Google search reveals some stats.

First of all, W3Tech figures (for web servers) as of today:

Unix (which includes Linux and other variants): 63.7%
Windows: 36.3%

(Sauce: http://w3techs.com/technologies/overview/operating_system/all)

Now a quick look at supercomputers, as measured by the TOP500 project (see here for more info and source)

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/0/0d/Operating_systems_used_on_top_500_supercomputers.svg/500px-Operating_systems_used_on_top_500_supercomputers.svg.png

(That blue part for Windows is pretty small, btw).

It may not be as popular for enterprise servers, but it runs pretty much the vast majority of the servers that let enterprises talk to each other/the outside world, and the same servers that let us have this argument. And Linus Torvalds may have started out as a bedroom programmer, but I think it's safe to say that the situation is not exactly the same. In fact, he gets paid to do pretty much whatever he wants. Seriously: the Linux Foundation cannot tell him what to work on or what not to work on; the only real requirement is that he continues to work on the Linux kernel and continues to do so openly (open as in open source). Bedroom coders are also the reason that Britain had such a massive games industry in past decades; a trend that sadly did not continue.

To address your second paragraph, joining the Linux Foundation would imply that they are making a commitment to open-source software - you can't get much more open source than the Linux Foundation. If they're not making good on that commitment then what the hell are they doing in the Foundation? It's not all about open source software either - see the part about crippling a pretty damn neat feature of one of their chipsets under Linux. People are used to using binary blobs and proprietary drivers - it's almost necessary in some cases - but not proprietary drivers which leave features out. I can understand not wanting to give away the keys to the safe, but that doesn't mean that you can get away with putting out a crippled and half-arsed attempt either.

While we're on the subject of giving away the keys to the safe, do you honestly think that someone is going to be able to reverse-engineer Nvidia's hardware just by getting a look at the driver source code? The code on it's own is useless without the hardware to run it on. Sure there's some proprietary/sensitive stuff in there, but it's not as if any Tom/Dick/Harry with a spare million or so could look at the driver source code and suddenly be able to release an actual physical hardware product based on it. Any companies/people/players that have the facilities and resources to do that are likely already in the business of making or selling graphics chips anyway; they may be able to gain some advantage by seeing what one of the big boys can do (or what their direct competitors are doing), but Nvidia aren't going to crumble because of it.
MjFrosty 20th June 2012, 14:05 Quote
Didn't realise servers were all super computers.

Lol at trolling. Common sense more like. You're doing exactly what I was referring to. It's easy enough to slam them when it's not you that's giving hand outs.
BLC 20th June 2012, 14:14 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by MjFrosty
Didn't realise servers were all super computers.

Lol at trolling. Common sense more like.

frustratedjackiechan.jpg

Can you read?
Quote:
Originally Posted by BLC
First of all, W3Tech figures (for web servers) as of today:

Unix (which includes Linux and other variants): 63.7%
Windows: 36.3%

(Sauce: http://w3techs.com/technologies/overview/operating_system/all)

Wait no, hang on... I'm so sorry, you are right after all. It's common sense, of course! Windows servers run the internet with a 36.3% market share! How could I ever have got that mixed up with Unix/Unix-variants, with only a measly 63.7% market share...

Please at least make the effort to make a decent/rational argument if you're going to make the claim that "Majority of servers do not run on Linux, a certain percentage do"; I at least had the decency to do the quickest of quick google searches to refute this statement. Oh, and try to read all of the post next time, rather than looking at the one colourful part that happens to stand out.

EDIT:
Quote:
Originally Posted by MjFrosty
It's easy enough to slam them when it's not you that's giving hand outs.

Please Mr Nvidia, may I have open source drivers for my AMD graphics card, or the Intel graphics chip in my laptop which already runs perfectly well under Linux without the need for drivers from you?
MjFrosty 20th June 2012, 14:17 Quote
If you can't see what little relevance Unix is to this debate, you're a pointlessly over-educated idiot lol

Have a Great Life
steveo_mcg 20th June 2012, 14:21 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by MjFrosty
If you can't see what little relevance Unix is to this debate, you're a pointlessly over-educated idiot lol

Have a Great Life

Linux is a Unix varriant for want of a better term they have much in common without Linux actually being based on the Unix code base.

And seriously when you're losing an argument don't resort to being rude it just makes you look stupid.
MjFrosty 20th June 2012, 14:24 Quote
I know what it's based on, it's the basis of his argument on server statistics I was talking about. Give yourself a slap.

Like Linus says, people wore are offended should be offended.

flol
steveo_mcg 20th June 2012, 14:28 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by MjFrosty
I know what it's based on, it's the basis of his argument on server statistics I was talking about. Give yourself a slap.

Like Linus says, people wore are offended should be offended.

flol
Quote:
Originally Posted by steveo_mcg

And seriously when you're losing an argument don't resort to being rude it just makes you look stupid.
MjFrosty 20th June 2012, 14:35 Quote
I take it if I commented on your pointless multi quote that too would be rude. I'll come back when my unix based server laptop can run for longer than 2.5 hours on battery, become more enraged and insult some more.

Queue the troll song
BLC 20th June 2012, 14:47 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by MjFrosty
If you can't see what little relevance Unix is to this debate, you're a pointlessly over-educated idiot lol

Have a Great Life

You probably won't bother to read all this, but I'm going to post it anyway.

If you had bothered to open the link in the source I posted, you would see that the "Unix" statistics break down into the following sub-categories, with the following market share:
  • Linux: 51.1%
  • BSD: 1.9%
  • Darwin: 0.1%
  • HP-UX: less than 0.1%
  • Solaris: less than 0.1%
  • Unknown: 47.0%

Let's make the assumption that the W3Tech survey actually surveys 1 million top web servers (it actually breaks down to slightly less than 1 million, but let's say 1 million for the sake of making the numbers easier). 63.7% (Unix/Linux) of 1 million is 637,000 and 36.3% (Windows) is 363,000. Let's further break down that 637,000 using the categories above and make the (very big and likely very wrong) assumption that the 47% "Unknown" are not Linux. 51.1% of 637,000 is 325,507. Based on that, you could easily say that Windows and Linux are almost equal in web server market share (363,000 and 325,507, respectively). Of course the reality is not quite so clear cut because of that "Unknown" category. If even a single-figure percentage of those unknowns are actually Linux servers then the figures would easily tip towards Linux being in the lead. The likely reality - given the breakdown of "Unix" above - is that many of these unknowns are custom Linux installations that do not neatly fall into any pre-defined categories or distributions. The nature of Linux makes it very easy for those with enough knowledge to build a completely custom installation and not bother with pre-built distributions such as RedHat Enterprise, Fedora, Arch, Debian, whatever. Such a server might respond to a version request with something that the W3Tech survey cannot easily classify.

For what it's worth, the only two in that "Unix" category which definitely are actual Unix products are HP-UX and Solaris; combined, they make up less than 0.2% of the overall number of "Unix" servers.
Quote:
Originally Posted by steveo_mcg
Linux is a Unix varriant for want of a better term they have much in common without Linux actually being based on the Unix code base.

And seriously when you're losing an argument don't resort to being rude it just makes you look stupid.
Quote:
Originally Posted by MjFrosty
I know what it's based on, it's the basis of his argument on server statistics I was talking about. Give yourself a slap.

Like Linus says, people wore are offended should be offended.

flol

I'm not offended at all. But at least I have the decency to put a bit of effort into it without having to resort to insults. I may have been very sarcastic, but that itself is not an insult. I certainly didn't call you an idiot.

The internet is built on the work of bedroom coders and students, and is powered by Linux. I would challenge you to name one technological innovation in the last two decades which has had at least the same global impact/influence that the internet has (and note, I mean the internet, not the world-wide web or http - those two cannot exist without the internet). It doesn't matter if you're using a twenty-year old computer which takes three weeks to boot: the chances are that it can access the internet in one way or another.
BLC 20th June 2012, 14:50 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by MjFrosty
I take it if I commented on your pointless multi quote that too would be rude. I'll come back when my unix based server laptop can run for longer than 2.5 hours on battery, become more enraged and insult some more.

Queue the troll song

By the way, there's no need; I think you've already demonstrated that you can't contribute anything constructive, and have your head firmly planted between your cheeks.

Though if you want, I can come back later with my Linux-based laptop that runs for over 6 hours on batteries. I won't be home for another hour or so though.

EDIT: Just so there's no ambiguity, telling someone that they've got their head up their arse is an insult ;)
will_123 20th June 2012, 14:50 Quote
MjFrosty piss off somewhere else. He made perfectly valid points and you are just trolling.
Quote:
Originally Posted by steveo_mcg
And seriously when you're losing an argument don't resort to being rude it just makes you look stupid.

So so true.
MjFrosty 20th June 2012, 14:57 Quote
Hi Will, thats fantastic
Quote:
Originally Posted by BLC
By the way, there's no need; I think you've already demonstrated that you can't contribute anything constructive, and have your head firmly planted between your cheeks.

Though if you want, I can come back later with my Linux-based laptop that runs for over 6 hours on batteries. I won't be home for another hour or so though.


Where as I (lying slightly) appreciate the effort you're putting in. Graphs and everything, it's really quite a treat for the eyes. Your argument holds no real relevance to the topic, which is why I'm retorting to your sarcastic dribble with nark. Look at dah Unix Stats they represent just how Nvidia are missing out on a clearly fantastic business venture.

Honest To Christ. Show me another graph.

I'm going back to England now
specofdust 20th June 2012, 15:07 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by MjFrosty
I'll come back when my unix based server laptop can run for longer than 2.5 hours on battery, become more enraged and insult some more.

Queue the troll song

No, you will not. MjFrosty, politeness costs nothing around these parts. Rudeness tends to cost you your ability to post. Flaming or insulting members is against forum rules - if I see it again, you'll be taking a break from the forums.
BLC 20th June 2012, 15:07 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by MjFrosty
Where as I (lying slightly) appreciate the effort you're putting in. Graphs and everything, it's really quite a treat for the eyes. Your argument holds no real relevance to the topic, which is why I'm retorting to your sarcastic dribble with nark. Look at dah Unix Stats they represent just how Nvidia are missing out on a clearly fantastic business venture.

Honest To Christ. Show me another graph

The first of your posts I quoted (in my first post in this thread) began thus:
Quote:
Originally Posted by MjFrosty
Majority of servers do not run on Linux, a certain percentage do. Don't exaggerate! Not that it has anything to do with a GPU manufacturer handing out it's work to bedroom programmers.

To which, my response was:
Quote:
Originally Posted by BLC
Ok, I really hope you're trolling, but here goes anyway... A quick Google search reveals some stats.

First of all, W3Tech figures (for web servers) as of today:

Unix (which includes Linux and other variants): 63.7%
Windows: 36.3%

(Sauce: http://w3techs.com/technologies/overview/operating_system/all)

Now a quick look at supercomputers, as measured by the TOP500 project (see here for more info and source)

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/0/0d/Operating_systems_used_on_top_500_supercomputers.svg/500px-Operating_systems_used_on_top_500_supercomputers.svg.png

(That blue part for Windows is pretty small, btw).

Therefore demonstrating (backed up with sources) that Linux does indeed run on a majority of a certain type of server. In this case I focus on web servers.

Your last sentence:
Quote:
Originally Posted by MjFrosty
Not that it has anything to do with a GPU manufacturer handing out it's work to bedroom programmers.

Is a perfectly valid point, however, which you also mention again in your last post. Though you seem to have missed the part where I addressed that too:
Quote:
Originally Posted by BLC
It may not be as popular for enterprise servers, but it runs pretty much the vast majority of the servers that let enterprises talk to each other/the outside world, and the same servers that let us have this argument. And Linus Torvalds may have started out as a bedroom programmer, but I think it's safe to say that the situation is not exactly the same. In fact, he gets paid to do pretty much whatever he wants. Seriously: the Linux Foundation cannot tell him what to work on or what not to work on; the only real requirement is that he continues to work on the Linux kernel and continues to do so openly (open as in open source). Bedroom coders are also the reason that Britain had such a massive games industry in past decades; a trend that sadly did not continue.

To address your second paragraph, joining the Linux Foundation would imply that they are making a commitment to open-source software - you can't get much more open source than the Linux Foundation. If they're not making good on that commitment then what the hell are they doing in the Foundation? It's not all about open source software either - see the part about crippling a pretty damn neat feature of one of their chipsets under Linux. People are used to using binary blobs and proprietary drivers - it's almost necessary in some cases - but not proprietary drivers which leave features out. I can understand not wanting to give away the keys to the safe, but that doesn't mean that you can get away with putting out a crippled and half-arsed attempt either.

While we're on the subject of giving away the keys to the safe, do you honestly think that someone is going to be able to reverse-engineer Nvidia's hardware just by getting a look at the driver source code? The code on it's own is useless without the hardware to run it on. Sure there's some proprietary/sensitive stuff in there, but it's not as if any Tom/Dick/Harry with a spare million or so could look at the driver source code and suddenly be able to release an actual physical hardware product based on it. Any companies/people/players that have the facilities and resources to do that are likely already in the business of making or selling graphics chips anyway; they may be able to gain some advantage by seeing what one of the big boys can do (or what their direct competitors are doing), but Nvidia aren't going to crumble because of it.

If I were to look at statistics for desktop operating systems (which I did do), then I would see that Windows has the vast majority of the market. But that's not the point here. The point is that Nvidia are a part of the Linux Foundation, yet they have done seemingly nothing to support Linux or to contribute to Linux in a meaningful way. Their only major contributions so far (drivers) have been crippled and proprietary.
MjFrosty 20th June 2012, 15:14 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by specofdust
No, you will not. MjFrosty, politeness costs nothing around these parts. Rudeness tends to cost you your ability to post. Flaming or insulting members is against forum rules - if I see it again, you'll be taking a break from the forums.

It's been a fantastic day for me so far. I'll put my mature hat on for the remainder, sorry.

One last jab however...BLC, do you not think it possible that Nvidia joined the foundation as part of a necessity?
yougotkicked 20th June 2012, 18:53 Quote
Let's all try to keep it civil, though it looks like specofdust got the message across already.

IMO: Nvidia joined the Linux foundation to try and build a good reputation with the programmers of the Linux community. Because of the prevalence of Linux in webservers and high-powered computing, and Nvidia's interest in promoting GPGPU development using CUDA, and increasing interest in remote rendering systems like GeForce GRID.

Nvidia has nothing to loose by providing more support to the Linux platform and a lot to gain. They probably just needed a push like this (or something much less dramatic) to make the topic of new drivers pop up during a meeting.

Nvidia's refusal to release open-source drivers is reasonable enough, there could be a few secrets to be learned if they did so, not quite instructions on how to build a GPU, but maybe a few design tricks AMD or Intel could use to improve their designs a little. However, there is no good reason for them not to release a new binary-blob driver that enables the power saving feature at issue here.

That being said, I'm guessing Torvalds didn't give Nvidia the finger for poor driver support. Smart money says the Nvidia representatives he works with are a tad annoying, and/or Nvidia has made some decisions about it's participation in the foundation that didn't make their way to the news sites.
impar 20th June 2012, 20:15 Quote
Greetings!
Quote:
Originally Posted by BLC
... at least I have the decency to put a bit of effort into it without having to resort to insults.
Rarer and rarer nowadays. ;)
Snips 21st June 2012, 09:49 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by Glix
You guys completely missed the point...

What's Linux? See that droid you are using? That's built on linux.

Would be interesting to get his views on Nvidia rival Imagination Tech.

What droid? I don't have a droid (and that's not a jedi mind trick)

This topic is about a kid whining because the other kids wont play with him, nothing more.
BLC 21st June 2012, 10:54 Quote
I give up; I'm not going to bother rising to the bait any more...
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