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UK 'needs plan B' for internet piracy

UK 'needs plan B' for internet piracy

Here's where the magic happens. Sometimes. Maybe.

Last night, culture secretary Jeremy Hunt, communications and creative industries minister Ed Vaizey and representatives from the music business and ISPs met to discuss the controversial Section 17 of the Digital Economy Act.

Section 17 obliges ISPs to block websites that are suspected of engaging in illegal file sharing. The extremely strong wording of the section makes ISPs responsible for illegal filesharing activities, and thus vulnerable to legal action from content rights-holders. However, taking too swift and strong action would also give any erroneously blocked sites cause to sue as well.

The meeting follows Hunt's recent decision to refer Section 17 to Ofcom for review. However, The Guardian reports that the referral was seen by some rights holders as a move to dispose of the measure, and the result of last night's meeting was an agreement to 'form a working group to look at ways of making the proposed system more palatable.'

One attendee told The Guardian that ‘it is agreed that what is needed is a plan B, or at least a plan that works alongside Section 17 which would be the legal backstop.’ One proposed plan B is that rights holders indemnify ISPs from legal action taken against them due to erroneous blocking. This means that it would be up to the rights holders to ‘prove incontrovertibly that a site was illegal before getting ISPs to block them.

Among the attendees of the meeting, which included BT, Universal Music, the BPI and TalkTalk – was Google, who mentioned its plans to ‘police digital piracy searches and promote legal sources of film and music content.

A move towards better policing of the Internet should only be cautiously welcomed. The strong wording of Section 17 of the infamously controversial Digital Economy Act certainly needs to be looked at again, so we’re hoping that Ofcom can bring more practical sense to the act, rather than demanding that sites get blocked will-nilly at the merest suspicion of being a witch supporting illegal file sharing.

We’d also like to restate our stance on piracy discussions before inviting your comments, namely that linking to or asking for illegal downloads will result in bans from the forum. Similarly, anyone offering advice on how to pirate content or seen to be inciting or encouraging piracy will be banned from the forums.

Are you encouraged to see the Digital Ecomomy Act being discussed with the aim of modifying it, or do you think it will be a case of too little too late? Let us know in the forums.

38 Comments

Discuss in the forums Reply
Cobalt 25th February 2011, 13:23 Quote
The problem is that it is still to expensive too fight this if you are blocked erroneously. The "Plan B" would shift the burden to the rights holders but as long as they claim to have proof the ISP would still have to comply. You still have to sue the rights holder in order to have the decision overturned, even though there was no due process in the first place.
Parge 25th February 2011, 13:33 Quote
They just need to make it as easy to buy real music/movies/tv as it is to get the illegal stuff. That and bring the prices down. I have spent so much money on games in Steam or Direct To Drive sales, that I would never have spent before, because these games were at a cost where I didn't mind losing out if the games turned out to be rubbish. I'd also be prepared to play full price for games I knew I'd love.
evanjdooner 25th February 2011, 13:39 Quote
How come Consumer Rights representatives weren't invited?
Paul2011 25th February 2011, 13:45 Quote
The thing is its been FAR too easy to get hold of anything you want for FAR too long, people no longer feel that its illegal to grap anything they want, and the sheer amount of ways to get things is going to be so hard to stop i dont think its possible now. There are many more websites linking to another five where these files are kept so unless they plan on blocking a good 20% of all websites then this will never work. If people want somthing they will get it... you cant stop the internet.
MajorTom 25th February 2011, 13:46 Quote
This is the classic case of the entertainment industry looking for ways to punish pirates while sticking to their old ways. If they were smart, they would look at why people pirate and then try to find ways to encourage them to go legit. So often the pirated product is more convenient (ignoring cost). HD Movies with no adverts, menu animations that can't be skipped, region restrictions, etc. Games with no DRM (or at least without intrusive, disruptive UBIsoft style, DRM).

Obviously things need to be done to discourage pirates. But they really should be looking at ways to encourage consumers as well.

Section 17 of the Digital Economy act was entirely blind to these causes of piracy and looks to set in place some very draconian methods. Blocking internet sites? That seems a bit too Chinese government to me. It's good to see that they are looking to make a change to the way sites would be judged as illegal though. The original document simply left it to the government (advised by members of the entertainment industry with no proof required) who would then force ISPs to ban them.

Something needs to be done but Section 17 really is very lazy. The industry needs to look closer to home.

Can I get my Ad free, region free, Blu-Ray now please? It costs me £20 and I expect more!
r3loaded 25th February 2011, 13:50 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by Parge
They just need to make it as easy to buy real music/movies/tv as it is to get the illegal stuff. That and bring the prices down. I have spent so much money on games in Steam or Direct To Drive sales, that I would never have spent before, because these games were at a cost where I didn't mind losing out if the games turned out to be rubbish. I'd also be prepared to play full price for games I knew I'd love.

This. I used to pirate games a lot just 4 years ago, but I've not bothered since the day it became easier to buy a game off Steam than to download and crack it. Just look at this weekend's sale - C&C games for £3.74 each!! I can feel my wallet jumping out of my pocket, and I don't even play RTS games that much!
Er-El 25th February 2011, 14:10 Quote
Most of the bill should be scrapped.
popcornuk1983 25th February 2011, 14:30 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by r3loaded
This. I used to pirate games a lot just 4 years ago, but I've not bothered since the day it became easier to buy a game off Steam than to download and crack it. Just look at this weekend's sale - C&C games for £3.74 each!! I can feel my wallet jumping out of my pocket, and I don't even play RTS games that much!

+1 to that.

I admit I used to do the same thing. With Steam having an almost 1click process to buying and delivering games, it's never been easier to buy legit. And with the constant sales and discounts, it's never been cheaper. My library on Steam has at least 100 games on it.

Also for music there's iTunes. I know a lot of people hate iTunes. But I love it. One click and boom songs on my computer/iPhone. Legally and fairly cheaply.

TV shows? BBC iPlayer, ITV player, 4OD, youtube channels. TVCatchup.

Unless it's easier to get content legitimately than it is to pirate, it's always going to be a problem.

Getting ISP's to block websites is the start to a controlled internet where what we can access is screened. If a site is illegal then the copyright owners should be given a system where it's easier to take the site down.

ISP's shouldn't take any blame, the internet is based on freedom and they shouldn't be told what their customers can and can't access.
maximus09 25th February 2011, 14:42 Quote
Steam is awesome, I have bought so many games from it at great prices since I signed up.

Surely there is a market for a similar application or website that offers TV and Movie streaming or downloads at great prices? I use SeeSaw quite a lot for TV, its great for getting programs you missed and renting is quite cheap, but the thing is I don't like renting, I would prefer to own and download permenantly. And don't tell me iTunes, that is so rubbish, it can't even handle me pluggin in my iPhone once in a while to put the bit-tech podcast on it!

I read a really interesting article recently about Anime pirating which was based around why Anime fans prefer to download "fansubbed" episodes instead of buying the DVD/BluRay or using legit streaming services. I think the consensus was that "fansubbing" was better quality and had faster release times than legally subbed and released titles offered by companies like Funimation. I think this proves that what people are looking for is convenience and quality at reasonable prices.

I for one would love a legit app for my HTPC like Steam but offering HD TV programs and movies at good prices! Or maybe there is one already, anyone know of something like this? Actually I know there is a app which offers a service for Chinese TV, but that is not much use to us in the UK :(
Woodspoon 25th February 2011, 14:45 Quote
Going to risk a ban here and say that in some ways piracy *has highlighted deficiencies in the current market*.
It's forced the over priced & badly organised entertainment industry to try and compete on an unfair playing field, eventually resulting in lower prices and a better system for buyers, which has meant more people buying.
I've noticed just amongst family and friends in the last 2-3 years more and more are buying rather than going looking for a pirate copy, because it's easier/cheaper now and I'm fairly sure this is not just restricted to my little part of the world.
So in some ways piracy has worked, but obviously it's still BAD. :)

*Edited by moderator*
popcornuk1983 25th February 2011, 14:45 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by maximus09
Surely there is a market for a similar application or website that offers TV and Movie streaming or downloads at great prices? I use SeeSaw quite a lot for TV, its great for getting programs you missed and renting is quite cheap, but the thing is I don't like renting, I would prefer to own and download permenantly.

Thanks for mentioning SeeSaw. Never heard of it before but looks impressive. I'll give it a try :)
LeMaltor 25th February 2011, 14:52 Quote
I don't think consulting a rap star is the way to deal with this.
alick 25th February 2011, 15:04 Quote
i hope i can still watch all my favorite tv shows and documentaries that are't produce in uk
maximus09 25th February 2011, 15:19 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by popcornuk1983
Quote:
Originally Posted by maximus09
Surely there is a market for a similar application or website that offers TV and Movie streaming or downloads at great prices? I use SeeSaw quite a lot for TV, its great for getting programs you missed and renting is quite cheap, but the thing is I don't like renting, I would prefer to own and download permenantly.

Thanks for mentioning SeeSaw. Never heard of it before but looks impressive. I'll give it a try :)

No problem I found it when I was getting frustrated with using BBC iPlayer, ITV Player and 4OD. SeeSaw combines programs from all over the place, a lot from 4OD but others as well. The Documentary section is really good! And they are starting Battlestar Gallactica now with the mini-series for just £1.99, now that is worth it!
popcornuk1983 25th February 2011, 15:25 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by maximus09
No problem I found it when I was getting frustrated with using BBC iPlayer, ITV Player and 4OD. SeeSaw combines programs from all over the place, a lot from 4OD but others as well. The Documentary section is really good! And they are starting Battlestar Gallactica now with the mini-series for just £1.99, now that is worth it!

I've already got all the series on DVD. Including the "The Plan" special. Gutted it's over.

I've been meaning to get into Misfits and noticed it's there. Ok uni work can get stuffed :D
derpooch 25th February 2011, 15:48 Quote
I don't see a point in pirating games, Steam is so much easier, and you can actually play them online without lots of effort! Now if only my area had some decent internet infrastructure.......
jrs77 25th February 2011, 16:29 Quote
What alot of people allready said... bring down prices and see sales go up and piracy go away.

I'd happily pay $9.95 for a downloadable movie I can watch as often as I like (e.g. no DRM). And I'm happily buying games at $14.95 aswell (only if I don't need an online-account like Steam tho). The new album of my favourite singer/group for $9.95 in highest bitrate possible?... count me in there too, if it comes without any DRM, as I want to listen to my music everywhere I go on multiple devices.

Anything above those prices is just too much, if the companies want to sell me their stuff more frequently.
niro 25th February 2011, 16:57 Quote
If these mega rich-ass corporations spent as much time on actually doing some work to encourage take up legitly of their products instead of trying to find someone to make responsible for piracy, then maybe they might actually start cutting down on piracy which doesnt piss off loads of people and actually makes them money. I bet there's quite a few people reading their whining bullcrap and thinkin "you know what I will pirate the retarded music of Soulja Boi just to stick it to you"

Valve created Steam and i'm pretty sure made a ton of people convert from piracy to actually paying for games, and not only that but buying games they would never hav even considered previously, and buying games they will never play. I bought red orchestra and i've played a whole 5 minutes and that's it, bought Mass Effect and didnt even touch it for over a year.
Although Activision seems to be doing it's hardest to actually encourage piracy with their highly overpriced games and increasingly poor development.

Easiest way to encourage people to buy product instead of piracy is to lower prices
Paulg1971 25th February 2011, 17:12 Quote
I think part of the trouble is the MP's telling what is right and wrong and next thing we hear is they are all on the fiddle.Pot,kettle,black springs to mind
Denis_iii 25th February 2011, 17:43 Quote
Absolutly useless action designed to bend over for the media conglamorites.

Want to stop piracy? If the below was available the world over I'd not have to pirate anything.

Music: since Spotify I have not pirated one single mp3.
Movies/Documentaries/TV Shows: once Netflix and Amazon on-demand video is available in the UK I won't pirate said media
Video Games: Valve and Games for Windows etc etc should have a Netflix like model for games as OnLIve now does (correct me if i'm wrong) so I'd pay a monthly few and can play whatever game I like but never own the game. And/OR Video game companies need to provide more/better demos.

I believe online is moving into streaming movies, tv shows and music which would be killer for a one stop shop for pay/month content of any ilk.
sofalover 25th February 2011, 18:26 Quote
So many different forms of 'piracy' that there is no one fits all solution.

Maybe it's time to admit that the concept of copyrighted material is dead and replace it with a global tip jar
for fans of any work to show their appreciation. The Internet is already a proven distribution system, who needs publishers/record labels/film studios they are only upset because while they were snorting coke of the bonnets of their Ferraris the world changed and they are not required any more.
So please **** of quietly, plenty of good art in all forms will still be released, and people will become famous without the old industry middle men taking 80%
Woodspoon 25th February 2011, 18:51 Quote
Another helpful solution to the problem would be to stop shipping shite/broken games and blaming poor sales on pirates.
AstralWanderer 25th February 2011, 19:43 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by MajorTom
This is the classic case of the entertainment industry looking for ways to punish pirates while sticking to their old ways. If they were smart, they would look at why people pirate and then try to find ways to encourage them to go legit. So often the pirated product is more convenient (ignoring cost). HD Movies with no adverts, menu animations that can't be skipped, region restrictions, etc.
Agreed - I've largely stopped buying DVDs due to the annoying ads/trailers. What set my blood boiling most recently was with the DVD releases of Waiting for God - a BBC produced, licence-payer funded series yet you have to wait 25-30 seconds for that stupid 2Entertain logo to play at the start of each disc - since it is several times longer that the subsequent BBC logo I guess that means their egos are several times larger too. Dumbwits. :(

As for HD, with all hardware subject to the HDCP kiss-of-death (aka key revocation) I've chosen not to spend a penny on it. The leak of the HDCP master key may make HD a "safe" purchase (from a consumer perspective) in future, but I'm not holding my breath.
Quote:
Originally Posted by MajorTom
Games with no DRM (or at least without intrusive, disruptive UBIsoft style, DRM).
If you've not already done so, check out Good Old Games where you can purchase genuinely DRM-free downloads. They run discount offers on most weekends (a mixed bag of games at 30-50% off this weekend). The downside is their more limited catalogue compared to D2D or Steam but there's no danger of you losing past purchases if your account is disabled either (as long as you keep backups of your downloads).
Quote:
Originally Posted by MajorTom
Obviously things need to be done to discourage pirates. But they really should be looking at ways to encourage consumers as well.
At the moment, piracy seems to be the main driver pushing content providers into providing better products (aka listening to what consumers want) at sensible prices. When DVDs first came out, British consumers were routinely charged 50-100% over the odds compared to the US for inferior products (most notoriously with the Armageddon DVD where the original UK version was a double-sided disk requiring viewers to flip it over near the film's climax compared to the dual-layer US version that contained the full movie on a single side) and had to wait several months longer for some releases. Things haven't completely leveled out but they do seem better - however the fear of piracy seems to have been a bigger factor in this for the film industry than caring for their consumers.

On the other hand, we have what seems to be a militantly consumer-hostile book industry in the UK trying to rip off purchasers even more blatantly on e-books that they have been on the dead-tree versions. If piracy (and consumer boycotts) can kill off such thinking, then more power to them.
sausages 25th February 2011, 20:59 Quote
They are gunna have to do better than that... Block websites all they like and people will just use IRC or some new Kazaa/Limewire equivalent. They need an all inclusive ban, or it just wont work, and I can't see them managing to pull it off. The ISP's will drag their heels as best they can, and they can do it good enough.
Quote:
Here's where the magic happens
That made me lol
thehippoz 25th February 2011, 21:04 Quote
the great firewall of china going up?
Sloth 25th February 2011, 23:54 Quote
As with every thread based on piracy, I'd like to point out that not every pirate is going to change because of lower prices or higher quality, or even ease of finding legal material.

That's certainly a huge part of it, sure. Plenty of gamers don't consider newer games to be worth $60 for rehashed sequel gameplay. Plenty also go to the ease of downloading a torrent, so easy it couldn't be wrong, right? The music industry is hit hardest by that, unlike pirated games which may need some setup pirated music works right away. Provide a reasonably priced and accessible system and you'll likely see a drop in piracy.

But that is a very long way from eliminating piracy. As much as people may hate to admit it, there are people who pirate things simply because they don't want to pay any amount for any quality of content. Without some sort of safeguard, the genuinely uncaring "free lunch" pirates will keep on pirating regardless of whether the oh-so-noble vigilante pirates stop or not.

On topic, can't say that having ISPs block illegal download sites is really the way to go about that. Too much room for error, due to the nature of the internet even legit sites may get some bad uploads and "bad" sites may still have some legal content.
Woollster00 26th February 2011, 00:57 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sloth
As with every thread based on piracy, I'd like to point out that not every pirate is going to change because of lower prices or higher quality, or even ease of finding legal material.

That's certainly a huge part of it, sure. Plenty of gamers don't consider newer games to be worth $60 for rehashed sequel gameplay. Plenty also go to the ease of downloading a torrent, so easy it couldn't be wrong, right? The music industry is hit hardest by that, unlike pirated games which may need some setup pirated music works right away. Provide a reasonably priced and accessible system and you'll likely see a drop in piracy.

But that is a very long way from eliminating piracy. As much as people may hate to admit it, there are people who pirate things simply because they don't want to pay any amount for any quality of content. Without some sort of safeguard, the genuinely uncaring "free lunch" pirates will keep on pirating regardless of whether the oh-so-noble vigilante pirates stop or not.

I think you're totally wrong i only pirate some games as they have no demos if they are worth purchasing i purchase them as i mostly want games for online anyay and you can't pirate most multiplayer games and the ones you can i am too lazy since steam and the sales i have brought an awfull lot more games and i am loyal to certain franchises such as crytek and and THQ with the dawn of war franchise i only pirategames that i know are gonna be god awful dribble just to test them out since the full price tags are a rip off for a half made crap game if games were cheaper i would definitely buy more and so would the majority of people the main thing that puts consumers off purchasing is overpriced half asses finished games.
Saivert 26th February 2011, 16:05 Quote
This is the same discussion over and over again. You guys here clearly agree that piracy is here to stay and that game developers and music producers only release junk that you wouldn't buy anyways. And that they all blame it on piracy.

What is new now?
Dragonfire666 26th February 2011, 21:36 Quote
Child porn is a far worse thing than piracy, but what are they doing to stop that!!!!!!!!!
They only care about the piracy because they are losing money, what about the poor children that are being abused every day.
They should be filtering the ISP's for child porn and stopping the perverts around the world.
STOP the abuse first and then think about your money.
AcidJiles 27th February 2011, 00:30 Quote
I never pirate games as I only buy good games at a price I feel I get good value at. The problem with tv shows and movies is you are charged a lot more per hour of enjoyment so I never feel I am getting value. With no real decent solution to provide my tv and movie needs at a suitable price point (or even something remotely close) then I will continue to not partake in the legal forms of acquisition. Piracy and cracking will always be around, companies need to move with the times and adapt and even embrace it like the music industry has mostly and they will still see great returns.
Cthippo 27th February 2011, 02:31 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sloth
But that is a very long way from eliminating piracy. As much as people may hate to admit it, there are people who pirate things simply because they don't want to pay any amount for any quality of content. Without some sort of safeguard, the genuinely uncaring "free lunch" pirates will keep on pirating regardless of whether the oh-so-noble vigilante pirates stop or not.

OK, but here's the question...

Do they matter?

The whole piracy argument swings on the theory of piracy=lost sales. It assumes that people would buy the product if they couldn't pirate it. For some people that's true, and the move to make legal downloads easier is having an effect on those people, as so many have said. For those who wouldn't buy the product under any circumstances, such as the ones you're talking about, there is no lost sale. Arguably they're stealing it, but that theft doesn't impact the IP owner in any way I can see.

If you make life difficult on the people who are willing to pay in an attempt to stop those who aren't willing to pay, then the willing will go back to choosing not to.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Saivert
This is the same discussion over and over again. You guys here clearly agree that piracy is here to stay and that game developers and music producers only release junk that you wouldn't buy anyways. And that they all blame it on piracy.

Yeah, pretty much, but if we didn't repeat ourselves what would we have to talk about? :p
Fizzban 27th February 2011, 06:31 Quote
There are 4 types of pirate:

1) Those that can't afford to pay - These are temporary pirates as sooner or later they will get a job and buy what they want. Minor hit on sales in the long term. Most lost sales would never have been purchased at all.

2) Those that would never have bought the item to begin with - No lost sales at all here.

3) Those who want to 'demo' things first before they buy - Very few sales lost here as most people only demo what they are interested in to begin with. Minor hit on sales .

4) Those that will pirate because they can - Reasonable loss, but relatively speaking it's still pretty minor.

Perhaps I give humans too much credit, but I feel most fit into the first three categorys. Thus little is actually lost to piracy. It's all a big QQ by the big companys. I don't condone piracy..but I also don't feel it deserves the coverage it receives.
Blademrk 28th February 2011, 00:06 Quote
I've started buying Triple play edition films for the digital copy to put on my iPod touch / iPhone.

It doesn't help the media companies case when you start getting things like Warner's digital copies which don't work on iTunes (at all) or the digital copy code activation is time restricted (the last Harry Potter film is advertised on the box as having a digital copy but in the small print on the back of the box it has an expiry date of December 2010 and, again, does not work with iTunes (which it doesn't mention anywhere on the box)).
jhng 28th February 2011, 14:42 Quote
Totally agree with all the comments about Steam etc.

I have never pirated anything (as far as I recall). However, since getting into Steam I have spent an order of magnitude more on games than I ever did in the retailstore days.

Same story for music. Since discovering iTunes and the Amazon MP3 store (which is typically a bit cheaper than iTunes and integrates directly with your iTunes library - worth checking out if you haven't), I have spent a huge amount more on music, and have discovered so much more new music, than I ever did in the days of buying CDs.

It is blindingly obvious that the solution to the apparent crisis in the various entertainment industries is to run with the technology rather than fight against it. After all, it was technological evolutions that gave birth to all these industries in the first place.
zatanna 4th March 2011, 23:50 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cthippo
The whole piracy argument swings on the theory of piracy=lost sales. It assumes that people would buy the product if they couldn't pirate it. For some people that's true, and the move to make legal downloads easier is having an effect on those people, as so many have said. For those who wouldn't buy the product under any circumstances, such as the ones you're talking about, there is no lost sale. Arguably they're stealing it, but that theft doesn't impact the IP owner in any way I can see.

those who place too much emphasis on the piracy=lost sales argument (i'm thinking the sadly out of touch music industry, but as is evidenced here it's lots o media) are focusing on a very small loss and missing a goldmine. as you've mentioned, for those who wouldn't buy under any circumstances (the largest potential market) the only approach is free trial. try it free (or for a very low cost) and you might like it. you might even one day buy it and even become a regular customer. nothing ventured, nothing gained.
Sloth 5th March 2011, 00:29 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by Woollster00
I think you're totally wrong i only pirate some games as they have no demos if they are worth purchasing i purchase them as i mostly want games for online anyay and you can't pirate most multiplayer games and the ones you can i am too lazy since steam and the sales i have brought an awfull lot more games and i am loyal to certain franchises such as crytek and and THQ with the dawn of war franchise i only pirategames that i know are gonna be god awful dribble just to test them out since the full price tags are a rip off for a half made crap game if games were cheaper i would definitely buy more and so would the majority of people the main thing that puts consumers off purchasing is overpriced half asses finished games.
A question, then: Do you think piracy is wrong?

You obviously admit to pirating games, and you have plenty of excuses, but the fact remains. So what makes you any different than someone with no excuses other than being unwilling to pay?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cthippo
OK, but here's the question...

Do they matter?

The whole piracy argument swings on the theory of piracy=lost sales. It assumes that people would buy the product if they couldn't pirate it. For some people that's true, and the move to make legal downloads easier is having an effect on those people, as so many have said. For those who wouldn't buy the product under any circumstances, such as the ones you're talking about, there is no lost sale. Arguably they're stealing it, but that theft doesn't impact the IP owner in any way I can see.

If you make life difficult on the people who are willing to pay in an attempt to stop those who aren't willing to pay, then the willing will go back to choosing not to.



Yeah, pretty much, but if we didn't repeat ourselves what would we have to talk about? :p
To pull out the same card, does it matter if they make or lose money? :D You're totally right. Those kinds of pirates, if magically stopped by a perfect DRM, would simply not buy the game at all. Still zero gain for the developer.

I, for one, don't like piracy because I find it hugely immoral (in addition to the immorality of breaking any legal restrictions). It's taking someone else's work and using it without giving them their due compensation. Letting people get compensated for their work is always close to my heart, stopping pirates even with no profit is part of that.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fizzban
There are 4 types of pirate:

1) Those that can't afford to pay - These are temporary pirates as sooner or later they will get a job and buy what they want. Minor hit on sales in the long term. Most lost sales would never have been purchased at all.
It's a luxury item. Wait until you have enough, or don't play it.
Quote:

2) Those that would never have bought the item to begin with - No lost sales at all here.
If you don't have the money then don't play it.
Quote:

3) Those who want to 'demo' things first before they buy - Very few sales lost here as most people only demo what they are interested in to begin with. Minor hit on sales .
If you aren't sure without a demo then check reviews, rent, borrow, etc. And if you're still not sure then either take a gamble or don't buy it. Their fault for not convincing you.
Quote:

4) Those that will pirate because they can - Reasonable loss, but relatively speaking it's still pretty minor.
As always, just don't play it.

You'll notice that every argument relies on the basic idea that the gamer is entitled to play any video game he or she chooses, at any time. That's simply not the case.
Fizzban 5th March 2011, 22:02 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sloth
snip

You seem to have missed the point with two of my points. You also seem to think I was referring solely to gaming piracy, which I wasn't.

Point 2: 'If they wouldn't have bought the item anyway'. It's got nothing to do with a lack of money. A person may try a game/film/album if they can get it for free that they would never have been interested enough in to actually spent money on.

Point 4: 'They will pirate because they can'. You say just don't play it? That comment makes no sense. People who pirate because they can are going to do it regardless of anything.

I also never said anyone was entitled to play anything, nor do I see a connection to that with the examples I gave. I merely outlined the 4 types of pirate as I see it.
AstralWanderer 8th March 2011, 08:46 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sloth
I, for one, don't like piracy because I find it hugely immoral (in addition to the immorality of breaking any legal restrictions).
"Hugely immoral"? How does robbery or assault measure on your scale then, given that they involve actual harm to someone? (let alone the likes of rape or murder).
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sloth
It's taking someone else's work and using it without giving them their due compensation. Letting people get compensated for their work is always close to my heart...
Presumably you would be happy to label game publishers like Activision as pirates also, due to them passing on cracked .exe's without crediting those responsible?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sloth
It's a luxury item...As always, just don't play it.
I agree with Fizzban here - he was providing a detailed explanation of why piracy has limited financial impact and you missed his point by a mile, treating it as justification.

As an aside, how would you view people lending games to someone else? That has much the same effect as piracy (potential gain in sales if the borrower decides to get their own copy, actual loss if they decide it's a crock of shite). Also for second hand game sales - would you consider these immoral also?
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