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Apple launches HTML 5 demo site

Apple launches HTML 5 demo site

Apple's HTML 5 demos look to show developers that they don't need Flash for shiny websites.

Apple is continuing its campaign against Adobe's Flash technology with a site advocating the advantages of HTML 5 - to be accessed via Safari, naturally.

As reported over on Boy Genius Report, the site is a direct response to Adobe's current We <3 Flash advertising campaign - itself merely the latest battleground in a war between the two companies which sees Adobe's Flash technology excluded from Apple's iPad, iPhone, and iPod Touch platforms.

Launched today, Apple's new advocacy site - entitled "HTML 5 and web standards" - doesn't actually mention Adobe's Flash, but with the language mirroring that of chief executive Steve Jobs' anti-Flash open letter it's easy to read between the lines.

The site hosts a range of demonstrations which use HTML 5, CSS, and JavaScript - technologies that Apple describes as "open, reliable, highly secure, and efficient [and that] allow web designers and developers to create advanced graphics, typography, animations, and transitions" without the need to start using browser plug-ins or add-ons.

The demos include an image gallery, a 360-degree rotating iPhone showcase, video streaming, audio streaming, and even a virtual reality application - but sadly Apple has chosen to lock out browsers other than its own Safari, even if they are fully HTML 5 compliant.

Regardless, if you run Safari - on any platform - it's worth checking out just to see what a future without Flash could be like.

Do you applaud Apple's advocacy of HTML 5 and look forward to the day when Adobe's Flash is no longer a mandatory install to experience the web, or does the requirement for Safari speak volumes about Apple's commitment to 'open' technologies? Share your thoughts over in the forums.

79 Comments

Discuss in the forums Reply
Lance 4th June 2010, 10:36 Quote
It does look great. But it seems to me that Apple are trying to take over the market that Adobe has, this is a standard case of hostile marketing.

And if your a Ipad/phone user you are not going to have a choice but hope that this catches on.

I'd like to see a truce to end this annoying confrontation.
tristanperry 4th June 2010, 10:46 Quote
Apple's stance on Flash support (or lack thereof!) is pretty annoying. I know it's a free market (kind of), however it does seem as though Apple are being a little immature.

Nonetheless, it's nice to see a HTML5 site. I know that HTML5 probably won't be supported mainstream (i.e. via Internet Explorer) for many years yet (based on its CSS implementation timeline), although it's good to see this site regardless.
BentAnat 4th June 2010, 10:50 Quote
It's about more than just "screw you flash", IMHO.

HTML 5 and CSS3 allow developers to make standards compliant websites that look absolutely stunning without (for example) using any images.
This in turn redusces loading times of pages, bandwidth requirements, etc. It also reduces risks involved with installing plugins, etc.
It's a move to unify and open up the web.

I see too many sites every week that opted to use flash for something that could've been done in Javascript and some CSS. This means that there's excessicve loading times, bandwidth requirements, and a plugin that chews up my system resources that could all be avoided.
Most of these sites have also never heard of "Graceful degradation" - it's "Flash or GTFO"

Flash has a place in the world and on the web, but HTML5 and CSS3 should be the tools used for web layouts in the future. Not Flash.
mooseguy 4th June 2010, 10:58 Quote
It worked fine for me in Chrome on Windows 7. Most probably won't run in Firefox, simply because Firefox is missing quite a few of the HTML 5 features that Chrome and Safari support, iirc.

EDIT: Oops, my bad. It doesn't work. This, however, does: http://developer.apple.com/safaridemos/

It's the same thing as far as I can see.
mclean007 4th June 2010, 10:58 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by BentAnat
...HTML 5 and CSS3 allow developers to make standards compliant websites that look absolutely stunning without (for example) using any images...

I see too many sites every week that opted to use flash for something that could've been done in Javascript and some CSS. This means that there's excessicve loading times, bandwidth requirements, and a plugin that chews up my system resources that could all be avoided. Most of these sites have also never heard of "Graceful degradation" - it's "Flash or GTFO"

Flash has a place in the world and on the web, but HTML5 and CSS3 should be the tools used for web layouts in the future. Not Flash.
Couldn't agree more. Flash is a scourge 99% of the time - 1% of the time you get something cool that really would have been impractical-to-impossible with CSS/JS/HTML, but the rest is just bad.

To clarify - when you say "without using any images", you of course mean using images for presentational things like drop shadows, rounded corners, and the like. Obviously you still need image files for actual images. I'm sure most people on this board will realise that, but thought I'd clarify for anyone who was bamboozled.
Tokukachi 4th June 2010, 11:03 Quote
If I were adobe i would just withdraw (or threaten to) all the Mac products, Mr. Jobs can then see how well mac sales go without Photoshop, illustrator etc...
javaman 4th June 2010, 11:05 Quote
Ive no love for adobe. Every year its one of their products that gets hacked first at that convention. As long as HTML5 is faster I honestly couldn't care if flash dies.

Ive had my browser crash so many times cause of flash plugin crashing. Shockwave is another product thats crashed multiple times a day for me.
rickysio 4th June 2010, 11:58 Quote
There's a developer link to test it out on Chrome...

Edit : never noticed it posted above.
rickysio 4th June 2010, 11:59 Quote
http://developer.apple.com/safaridemos/

I expected photos of Jobs with a halo in the picture demo, damn it!
BentAnat 4th June 2010, 12:20 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by mclean007
To clarify - when you say "without using any images", you of course mean using images for presentational things like drop shadows, rounded corners, and the like. Obviously you still need image files for actual images. I'm sure most people on this board will realise that, but thought I'd clarify for anyone who was bamboozled.
100% correct.
In modern web deisgn, a lot of http requests get used for accessing stupid little resources - rounded corner images, drop shadows, gradients, border images, that kind of Jazz.

These can now be reduced, thanks to CSS3 and HTML5.
To give those that haven't got an idea some indication:
The classical "polaroids" phot gallery can be done completely using CSS3.
Video streaming without flash is a reality in HTML5
gradients, drop shadows, gloss buttons, strange geometric fonts, importing fonts for web page display are all doable. We don't need flash fro those things anymore. We need less images for those things.
Where is that not a step in the right direction for the future of the web?

It seems like Adobe doesn't like that viewpoint much, though.
hexx 4th June 2010, 12:20 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by Neat69
If I were adobe i would just withdraw (or threaten to) all the Mac products, Mr. Jobs can then see how well mac sales go without Photoshop, illustrator etc...

you don't get it... jobs said it clearly that his open letter on flash was reaction to adobe's apple trashing for not supporting flash. apple decided not to use flash as there was no mobile version of flash available when iphone and even ipad was launching and to date there still is no flash on mobile. you've got flash lite which is based on flash 5/6 which means the most of the flash content won't be shown.

instead they decided to go with something what has future, which is html 5 and css3, since most of the mobile browsers are based on webkit (developed by apple and is now open source) the target audience is huge, not speaking about other browsers using webkit like chrome and safari. flash is overused, there are pages created in flash for no reason at all.

there's nothing like a war between apple and adobe, apple chose not to use flash, adobe didn't really care to create mobile version, it's just when iDevices started to be popular adobe saw that they're losing on this field since they've got no product on 50+ million devices and ppl using these devices are proof that flash is not a necessity on the web, it's not a standard.

push for html5/css3 gives developer tools to create dynamic/or eye-candy content without using cpu-heavy flash and is created using standard development tools like hyper text mark-up language, javascript and cascading style sheets.

me as a developer am looking forward for this era of web.
hexx 4th June 2010, 12:24 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by Neat69
If I were adobe i would just withdraw (or threaten to) all the Mac products, Mr. Jobs can then see how well mac sales go without Photoshop, illustrator etc...

and on the other adobe soft on mac.... have you been living under the rock? adobe was lacking in terms of product development for mac platform and CS5 package is the first of their products developed using cocoa framework which is native to mac os x and they've done it after 10 years!!!!! every single release of CS package on mac was inferior to PC version. and adobe can't dump mac since it's half of their revenue although there are more copies out there on PC platform but most of them are pirated copies.

adobe is just lazy, that's all, read more about history and current products and check support pages full of complaints against the performance of adobe products on mac platform. what's worse is the fact that they've killed off the best vector/illustrating sw - Freehand when they bought macromedia.
general22 4th June 2010, 12:49 Quote
I tried switching my user agent but it is Safari only for a reason :(. Only the 360 spin worked on FF 3.63. Probably have better luck with something Webkit based if you do not have Safari.
Jehla 4th June 2010, 12:57 Quote
Was it just me or did the video play back seem choppy?

(Running on win7)
mi1ez 4th June 2010, 13:06 Quote
So, hold on...

They bat on about open standards, and then lock out all other browsers from their tech demo?!

Good work Apple. Steve, fire that PR team of yours...
Nedsbeds 4th June 2010, 13:09 Quote
The only thing we regularly use flash for in our agency is Video.
Considering the video demo didn't work for me in Chrome, it is a simple fact that HTML 5 will not be replacing flash in the coming years.

Forcing developers to use different technologies is completely the wrong way to go about things. We already know the disadvantages of flash, we already know how great HTML 5 will be. They are preaching to the converted.
What the large tech companies should be doing is educating users in the advantages of renewing the software they use.

Once they do that, then we can start using HTML 5
gavomatic57 4th June 2010, 13:13 Quote
I'm in the HTML5 camp, personally. Of the three platforms I use regularly, Flash only works well on Windows. It's an unreliable system hog in OSX and Linux, constantly crashing and causing undue load on the CPU. The best browser at the moment for HTML5 content is Safari, even on Youtube - surprising considering it's a Google-owned site. You'd think it would be better on Chrome...

Adobe can't dump OSX without alienating the vast majority of designers. They're not going to do that. It's not as if Quark would sniff at the opportunity to take back marketshare from Indesign - same goes for Aperture and Adobe's Lightroom.

Photoshop Elements 8 on Windows is a mess. Surprisingly it is better on OSX thanks to the lack of Elements Organiser, which slows my i7 box to a crawl.
will. 4th June 2010, 13:29 Quote
I don't like flash. I'd be happy when it goes away forever and if this is the way it's going to happen then so be it. I just wish someone had tried to force IE out of existence in the same way.
BentAnat 4th June 2010, 13:30 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by mi1ez
So, hold on...

They bat on about open standards, and then lock out all other browsers from their tech demo?!

Good work Apple. Steve, fire that PR team of yours...

No. Right call made by apple there.
Disable all browsers that can't see it the way it's mean to tbe seen. It just so happens that Safari (and the webkit rendering engine) have the best implementation of CSS3 and HTML5 in general.
They're not perfect, but if i'm gouing to use HTML5 for a tech demo, i'll make sure that the tech demo looks right. The effective way of doing that (seeing that it's a TECH demo), is by saying "No" to certain browsers, rather than going "your browser doesn't support this, and thus my tech demo looks like sh*t"
Nedsbeds 4th June 2010, 13:33 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by BentAnat
No. Right call made by apple there.
Disable all browsers that can't see it the way it's mean to tbe seen. It just so happens that Safari (and the webkit rendering engine) have the best implementation of CSS3 and HTML5 in general.
They're not perfect, but if i'm gouing to use HTML5 for a tech demo, i'll make sure that the tech demo looks right. The effective way of doing that (seeing that it's a TECH demo), is by saying "No" to certain browsers, rather than going "your browser doesn't support this, and thus my tech demo looks like sh*t"

They bat on about open standards being the future and replacement for flash, and then prove that we are no way near ready for it by restricting it to safari.....
gavomatic57 4th June 2010, 13:34 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by BentAnat
No. Right call made by apple there.
Disable all browsers that can't see it the way it's mean to tbe seen. It just so happens that Safari (and the webkit rendering engine) have the best implementation of CSS3 and HTML5 in general.
They're not perfect, but if i'm gouing to use HTML5 for a tech demo, i'll make sure that the tech demo looks right. The effective way of doing that (seeing that it's a TECH demo), is by saying "No" to certain browsers, rather than going "your browser doesn't support this, and thus my tech demo looks like sh*t"

Absolutely. As I mentioned in my previous post, Youtube HTML5 only works properly on Safari too. Chrome will allow you to view it normal sized and in standard definition, whereas Safari will offer full screen HD if HD is available.

Whilst both browsers are based on Webkit, Chrome differs slightly and that (I think) is what makes the difference.
jrs77 4th June 2010, 13:35 Quote
5-10 years back, Flash was so heavily used in every project and on every webpage, that it became standard to use. But, it was only used, because it was (and still is) far easier to design a stunning looking page in Flash then it is in HTML+CSS+Javascript.
You've got all those nice possibilities of tweening, fading, etc etc etc and once the Flash-file is loaded, there's no need for additional pagecalls, but the content like images in a gallery, or streaming audio/video... and you're not bound to div and table-formatting aswell ofc.

HTML5 and CSS3 introduces alot of options to make pages look as stunning as Flash-based pages, but 100% W3C-compliant, without any plugins. The Flash-Plugin itself is actually the problem here, as it opens doors for lot's of crap you don't wanna see and can't control. You can't read the sourcecode of the Flash-file, like you can read the sourcecode of HTML for example.

Not to need any plugins is the right direction imho, as it gives you, the user!, more control.

Apple doesn't have anything against Adobe itself, Apple has something against PlugIns, as PlugIns ruin the efforts to develop stable and safe OS' and software.
There's a reason, why they don't allow to use Apps on the iPhone or iPad by default, but limit the users to the Apps available through their store.
They test every App, to guarantee a stable and safe working machine.

Now back to Flash... Apple simply can't guarantee, that Flash-based stuff won't harm your system, as they can't test every Flash-application flaoting around in the www.

I'm working as a graphics-designer and web-developer for 15 years now, and I'm doing lot's of things in Flash myself (clients still do want that fancy stuff!), but from a users POV I totally hate Flash, especially because I know what possibilities there are to execute unwanted code.
ch424 4th June 2010, 13:47 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by mooseguy
http://developer.apple.com/safaridemos/

It's the same thing as far as I can see.

+rep for the link - They work better in Chrome on vista for me :D
hexx 4th June 2010, 13:48 Quote
agreed, especially these days when we've got jQuery which saves so much work in javascript, i code most of the stuff using jQuery for which i'd reach for flash some time ago. i've don't really care about flash since it's blocked on my borser (click2flash).

quite good test for html5 - http://html5test.com/

and please do not forget - html5 is not standard yet, spec is still being written and for example video tag (wars between h264, ogg, vp8) is still as 'undefined'

but supporting html5 in this stage could speed up this process of standardization.
Guinevere 4th June 2010, 14:47 Quote
Why not just allow non safari browsers to view it, but slap up a big "As you're using Firefox x.x which isn't compliant with X, Y & Z - you'll find this bit is bust" (I'm sure they could tidy up my version)

I'm using Snow Leopard, but I don't use Safari, I'm FF all the way
DbD 4th June 2010, 15:41 Quote
Why not let html 5 replace flash on merit - support both and then we can all view everything? Sure promote html 5 if you think it's good, but until it replaces flash support the current standard.

Most users don't care what standard you are using - they just want to view the web pages. If they can't do that then you have failed.
duc 4th June 2010, 16:32 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by BentAnat
No. Right call made by apple there.
Disable all browsers that can't see it the way it's mean to tbe seen. It just so happens that Safari (and the webkit rendering engine) have the best implementation of CSS3 and HTML5 in general.
They're not perfect, but if i'm gouing to use HTML5 for a tech demo, i'll make sure that the tech demo looks right. The effective way of doing that (seeing that it's a TECH demo), is by saying "No" to certain browsers, rather than going "your browser doesn't support this, and thus my tech demo looks like sh*t"

Its strange how Apple is championing web freedom against Flash, then lock their html5 demo to Safari use only. Their audio & video demos which uses "industry-standard format" H.264 video and MPEG-4 audio is only viewable with Apple's own QuickTime.

So, if you're using a PC you have to download Safari to view the demo. But, Safari for PC isn't HTML5 compatible (scores less than Firefox using http://html5test.com/), so the VR section of the demo doesn't even work.
rickysio 4th June 2010, 16:39 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by DbD
Why not let html 5 replace flash on merit - support both and then we can all view everything? Sure promote html 5 if you think it's good, but until it replaces flash support the current standard.

Most users don't care what standard you are using - they just want to view the web pages. If they can't do that then you have failed.

Steve Jobs : If you see flash , you blew it
Cepheus 4th June 2010, 17:34 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by hexx
Quote:
Originally Posted by Neat69
If I were adobe i would just withdraw (or threaten to) all the Mac products, Mr. Jobs can then see how well mac sales go without Photoshop, illustrator etc...

you don't get it... jobs said it clearly that his open letter on flash was reaction to adobe's apple trashing for not supporting flash. apple decided not to use flash as there was no mobile version of flash available when iphone and even ipad was launching and to date there still is no flash on mobile. you've got flash lite which is based on flash 5/6 which means the most of the flash content won't be shown.

That paragraph is basically all wrong. It's not that Adobe won't make Flash for iPhone, it's that Apple wouldn't let them do it in any way. Adobe bothered to make a compiler that would let people develop for the iPhone in Flash, Apple blocked it. There is flash on mobiles, Android has the full flash experience working just fine, and it's coming to Blackberry and WinMo as well. That's Flash 10, not Flash 5/6.
Quote:
instead they decided to go with something what has future, which is html 5 and css3, since most of the mobile browsers are based on webkit (developed by apple and is now open source) the target audience is huge, not speaking about other browsers using webkit like chrome and safari. flash is overused, there are pages created in flash for no reason at all.
How do you know that flash doesn't have a future? Yes, you can do a lot of the things formerly used for Flash in HTML, but I have yet to see a game that works well with HTML5 and embeds as easily as a swf file. Google engineers spent time getting Quake 2 (yes, 2) working in HTML5, they managed it eventually, but it required a whole specialized webserver to work properly!
Quote:
there's nothing like a war between apple and adobe, apple chose not to use flash, adobe didn't really care to create mobile version, it's just when iDevices started to be popular adobe saw that they're losing on this field since they've got no product on 50+ million devices and ppl using these devices are proof that flash is not a necessity on the web, it's not a standard.

That's debatable. Certainly, the FTC in America are investigating to work out whether Apple are using unethical tactics to block out Adobe. Also, versions of sites optimized for mobile are often very low on graphical stuff, so flash isn't necessarily a necessity. It's only as they get faster (read: snapdragon cpus) that the graphical stuff becomes worthwhile.
Quote:
push for html5/css3 gives developer tools to create dynamic/or eye-candy content without using cpu-heavy flash and is created using standard development tools like hyper text mark-up language, javascript and cascading style sheets.
That sounds like a typical PR line! Flash is actually faster than HTML5, when you're comparing two things together.
Proof: Google Chrome (on Windows) Flash 58% faster than HTML5 on Youtube.
http://www.readwriteweb.com/archives/does_html5_really_beat_flash_surprising_results_of_new_tests.php
More hardcore things such as canvas, vectoring and text: Flash still wins by a long way for what it's designed for.
http://www.craftymind.com/guimark2/
HTML only beats flash for text manipulation, and that's due to a chrome windows bug. I tested it again, and
Flash is actually remarkably optimized, it's just that some would have you think otherwise. HTML is good, yes, but doing nice effects in it
Quote:
me as a developer am looking forward for this era of web.

Me too, but I don't think it's good to prejudge anything as being a killer of Flash. In almost every test I've seen, Flash 10.1 beats HTML5 by quite a long way, especially with anything remotely 3d.
Psytek 4th June 2010, 18:55 Quote
Sure are a lot of people in here talking about html/css vs flash who sound like they've never written either.
jrs77 4th June 2010, 19:38 Quote
Flash allows to execute harmful code, without the user able to do anything about it. You can't block or detect it, if it's executed from within the flash-film.

That is the only reason why Apple doesn't support Flash on the iPhone and the iPad.
RichCreedy 4th June 2010, 20:10 Quote
i think poorly written flash apps are the cause of most browser problems.

i'm no programmer, but i can tell you that all my browser crashes are because of flash. maybe thats why there is no 64bit flash player for x64 windows browsers
Cepheus 4th June 2010, 20:39 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by jrs77
Flash allows to execute harmful code, without the user able to do anything about it. You can't block or detect it, if it's executed from within the flash-film.

That is the only reason why Apple doesn't support Flash on the iPhone and the iPad.

Don't know where you read that, but it's not true. Yes, there are exploits that can lead to Flash executing harmful code, but if you are on the latest versions of Flash it's quite hard to find, much harder than a while ago.

What you're saying is basically just scaremongering - if there are so many holes, why do so many people use flash? There'd be a massive outcry if someone found out that Flash's security was like a big sieve, it's just not true.
Quote:
Originally Posted by RichCreedy
i think poorly written flash apps are the cause of most browser problems.

i'm no programmer, but i can tell you that all my browser crashes are because of flash. maybe thats why there is no 64bit flash player for x64 windows browsers

That could well be the case. Flash itself is pretty stable, but if your code has errors in and you have debugging off, who knows what could happen!
Davzyii 4th June 2010, 21:39 Quote
I know flash can crash a bit but it really is a pain for ipad users and other apple product users to be surfing the web and then get annoyed when they can't look at something as it requires flash.
jrs77 4th June 2010, 22:34 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cepheus
Don't know where you read that, but it's not true. Yes, there are exploits that can lead to Flash executing harmful code, but if you are on the latest versions of Flash it's quite hard to find, much harder than a while ago.

What you're saying is basically just scaremongering - if there are so many holes, why do so many people use flash? There'd be a massive outcry if someone found out that Flash's security was like a big sieve, it's just not true.



That could well be the case. Flash itself is pretty stable, but if your code has errors in and you have debugging off, who knows what could happen!

A simple search on google will tell you, that I'm not telling crap.

I'm a web-developer for 15 years, and I'm coding Flash since version 4 allready.... and yes: I can still implement lots of harmful code into Flash, if I'd like to.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Davzyii
I know flash can crash a bit but it really is a pain for ipad users and other apple product users to be surfing the web and then get annoyed when they can't look at something as it requires flash.

How many sites are we talking about here? Most sites I'm browsing don't use any Flash at all actually for their regular content, and for youtube you got an App for the iPhone and the iPad.
hbeevers 4th June 2010, 22:56 Quote
The main reason steve jobs said he was dropping flash was because 'it is one of the prime sources of instability in the mac OS'. If flash is such a problem for apple then how come ubuntu, a free and open OS can now run flash even better than windows, i run window s7 and ubuntu, flash runs smoother and looks better on ubuntu than it does windows, if ubuntu can do it for free then why can't apple with all their financial backing. All this about the big problems with flash and apple striving for a more 'open' web standard is just them faceting over their own desires for 'conquering' the web and filling it with apple products.
acidfire 5th June 2010, 01:44 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by jrs77
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cepheus
Don't know where you read that, but it's not true. Yes, there are exploits that can lead to Flash executing harmful code, but if you are on the latest versions of Flash it's quite hard to find, much harder than a while ago.

What you're saying is basically just scaremongering - if there are so many holes, why do so many people use flash? There'd be a massive outcry if someone found out that Flash's security was like a big sieve, it's just not true.



That could well be the case. Flash itself is pretty stable, but if your code has errors in and you have debugging off, who knows what could happen!

A simple search on google will tell you, that I'm not telling crap.

I'm a web-developer for 15 years, and I'm coding Flash since version 4 allready.... and yes: I can still implement lots of harmful code into Flash, if I'd like to.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Davzyii
I know flash can crash a bit but it really is a pain for ipad users and other apple product users to be surfing the web and then get annoyed when they can't look at something as it requires flash.

How many sites are we talking about here? Most sites I'm browsing don't use any Flash at all actually for their regular content, and for youtube you got an App for the iPhone and the iPad.

Did you see the keynote where Jobs was first showing off the iPad? all the holes in the New York Times site where the photos were suppose to be for articles still stands out in my mind. Basically, in order to get your site to look the same way on the ipad/iphone as it does on the web you have to develop an app. Maybe that works for large companies that can afford to do so, but there is ALOT of content out there on sites where they just can't afford to.

Don't get me wrong, I think both companies are in the wrong here. Flash has become a bit of a lumbering dinosaur that desperately needs a good recode. Hell, even the dev environment needs a proper update. Everything else in the CS4 suite runs beautifully on my i7, but Flash consistantly studders and freezes.
rickysio 5th June 2010, 04:23 Quote
(Full) Flash 9 runs fine on my N900. Not Flash Lite. And to date it has yet to crash my N900.

Any other company that says otherwise is simply lazy.
zimbloggy 5th June 2010, 05:10 Quote
It's ironic that they are touting this new OPEN platform when they force you to have their own browser to view it.
brianthebrian 5th June 2010, 08:14 Quote
I've got no axe to grind but I agree on one point - if you've created a tech demo, to be made available to anyone to look at on their own machines etc, it strikes me as sensible to restrict it to running only on the browser you've written it for/tested it on. Surely the point of the demo, for now, is to show potential ?
scq 5th June 2010, 09:59 Quote
It's kind of ironic that Apple's 'open' standards only work in Safari. I tried it in Chrome and it still doesn't work. They must have embedded browser detection code and used a bunch of currently unsupported pseudo classes/methods. I guess eventually, all browsers should support it.

Problem is, the biggest browser, IE probably won't get any of these standards supported until version 400 and by then, it'll probably only half ass it like every other release anyways, forcing developers who can't be bothered making a website twice and debugging CSS/JS for hours resort to Flash.

Personally, I hate Flash. Ever tried running Flash on a Mac? Yeah, it runs alright most of the time, but it drains my battery, uses up way more CPU/memory than it should, and half the time, gives me choppy video playback. Not to mention the design atrocities Flash has produced for lazy half-assed "web designers".

Unfortunately, despite browser inconsistencies in regards to standards (and the standards Apple seems to be using in their demos aren't even completely codified yet), I have to agree with Apple's stance. Screw Flash. I wish people would just STFU about it, because not only is it slow and inefficient, it breeds bad design and costs a load of money to license.

FYI, I used to be an avid Flash user. Developed with it, drew with it, hell, I even made posters with it. I stopped when I discovered better free alternatives that were more modular and easier to work with: IE: JQuery etc.
Bakes 5th June 2010, 11:06 Quote
scq, it's worse than that. All of the demos are also available on the Apple developer site (http://developer.apple.com/safaridemos/) and the only one that doesn't work in Chrome is that VR one.
They're basically supported in the other browsers, but Apple will only let them use them on Safari.
jrs77 5th June 2010, 12:36 Quote
We can make this totally easy for everyone....

If you don't like it, don't use Apple-products.

If there would be other manufacturers offering products as good as the ones from Apple, then nobody would give a damn about this whole Apple-topic.

Don't blame Apple for being Apple, blame the other manufacturers for not releasing similarily good products.
Bakes 5th June 2010, 12:57 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by jrs77
We can make this totally easy for everyone....

If you don't like it, don't use Apple-products.

If there would be other manufacturers offering products as good as the ones from Apple, then nobody would give a damn about this whole Apple-topic.

Don't blame Apple for being Apple, blame the other manufacturers for not releasing similarily good products.

Well, I think you are quite mistaken about there being no products as good as those from Apple. Personally, I love my Android phone and would pick it over an iPhone every day.

What I'm annoyed about is that Apple have blocked people from releasing things in languages other than C++ or Objective C. Adobe wrote a flash->iphone compiler, it made native iPhone apps, no translation layer at all, simply compiled actionscript into machine code. Apple blocked it, citing that it would produce sub-standard apps.
jrs77 5th June 2010, 13:22 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bakes
Well, I think you are quite mistaken about there being no products as good as those from Apple. Personally, I love my Android phone and would pick it over an iPhone every day.

What I'm annoyed about is that Apple have blocked people from releasing things in languages other than C++ or Objective C. Adobe wrote a flash->iphone compiler, it made native iPhone apps, no translation layer at all, simply compiled actionscript into machine code. Apple blocked it, citing that it would produce sub-standard apps.

Apple gets critiziced for two decades allready, as people compare it to Windows and Linux.
Apple isn't a software- or hardware-company tho, but they built systems. And a system incorporates hardware and software alike.

Now Apple makes sure, that their systems do work as intended, and therefore Apple sets their own standards for software being used on their hardware.
In return for accepting Apples policies, the user get's full warranty and support for the products.

Nobody forces you to use Apple-products, so stop blaming them for their policies, but go buy/use something else.

EDIT: Apple is not willing to guarantee for Adobes Flash, and they don't want to deal with updating their firmware every few month, when Flash is updated. And they can't even do so, as the users themselves would need to update the firmware of their iPhones and iPads. But the users would blame Apple, if the new Flash-stuff doesn't work on their older iPhone or iPad etc...
So Apple simply doesn't allow 3rd-party-stuff like Flash on their systems, as this is alot easier to maintain.

It's nothing else with the Playstation or the Xbox I might add.
Bakes 5th June 2010, 13:31 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by jrs77
Apple gets critiziced for two decades allready, as people compare it to Windows and Linux.
Apple isn't a software- or hardware-company tho, but they built systems. And a system incorporates hardware and software alike.

Now Apple makes sure, that their systems do work as intended, and therefore Apple sets their own standards for software being used on their hardware.
In return for accepting Apples policies, the user get's full warranty and support for the products.

Nobody forces you to use Apple-products, so stop blaming them for their policies, but go buy/use something else.

You're not going to tell Mercedes to use Toyota-engines either, do you?

What Apple is doing is not like telling Mercedes to use Toyota engines. It's like Mercedes telling you that you can't put a Toyota engine in your car, when it's perfectly possible from a technical standpoint.
dyzophoria 5th June 2010, 15:46 Quote
I just feel its too early to just ride on the Anti-Flash bandwagon, as what Apple is trying to do, Im more for a smooth transition, developers start developing HTML5 sites, people sees these site and discover they are better than flash sites, increase in demand for html5 forces other browsers to step up their support (and iron out any problems they have with their browsers). but at the same time flash still exists along side. dunno, I just like smooth transitions, easier to manage quirks if there are in the standard.
Bakes 5th June 2010, 17:55 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by dyzophoria
I just feel its too early to just ride on the Anti-Flash bandwagon, as what Apple is trying to do, Im more for a smooth transition, developers start developing HTML5 sites, people sees these site and discover they are better than flash sites, increase in demand for html5 forces other browsers to step up their support (and iron out any problems they have with their browsers). but at the same time flash still exists along side. dunno, I just like smooth transitions, easier to manage quirks if there are in the standard.

I agree with this. Flash is still nowhere near critical mass, and probably won't get there for at least two years.
jrs77 5th June 2010, 19:20 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bakes
What Apple is doing is not like telling Mercedes to use Toyota engines. It's like Mercedes telling you that you can't put a Toyota engine in your car, when it's perfectly possible from a technical standpoint.

Mercedes voids your warranty and denies support, if you do so. And that's exactly what Apple does.

So what's the deal then? You can put Flash on your iPhone or iPad, if you absolutely want to, but you'll loose your warranty and support for jailbreaking your product..
ssj12 5th June 2010, 23:52 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by jrs77
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cepheus
Don't know where you read that, but it's not true. Yes, there are exploits that can lead to Flash executing harmful code, but if you are on the latest versions of Flash it's quite hard to find, much harder than a while ago.

What you're saying is basically just scaremongering - if there are so many holes, why do so many people use flash? There'd be a massive outcry if someone found out that Flash's security was like a big sieve, it's just not true.



That could well be the case. Flash itself is pretty stable, but if your code has errors in and you have debugging off, who knows what could happen!

A simple search on google will tell you, that I'm not telling crap.

I'm a web-developer for 15 years, and I'm coding Flash since version 4 allready.... and yes: I can still implement lots of harmful code into Flash, if I'd like to.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Davzyii
I know flash can crash a bit but it really is a pain for ipad users and other apple product users to be surfing the web and then get annoyed when they can't look at something as it requires flash.

How many sites are we talking about here? Most sites I'm browsing don't use any Flash at all actually for their regular content, and for youtube you got an App for the iPhone and the iPad.

But wait...couldnt you just simply code some harmful code in HTML5/Javascript/CSS3? I'm pretty sure the answer is yes to this as I've tested that out before back when HTML and CSS2 was introduced. I'm sorry to say but there is no such thing as a safe internet no matter what is used for content creation.

Truthfully with Adobe adding Flash Catalyst in CS5 I expect a large resurgence of flash anyways since you can use that to create basic flash content without coding. I always sucked with flash creation so I welcome Flash Catalyst since I can actually make nicer sites and graphics with flash integration.
jrs77 6th June 2010, 00:43 Quote
What you're thinking of is JavaRuntimeEnvironment, but that's again a PlugIn that you need to install, just like Flash.
JRE and Flash can be coded to access and modify files of your PC for example, which isn't possible with HTML, CSS or Javascript.

You can't do any harmful stuff with HTML or CSS at all and Javascript doesn't offer alot options either. Additionally the stuff JavaScript offers can be blocked by the settings of your browser, like disabling cross-site-scripting for example. HTML, CSS and JavaScript are run in the sandbox of the browser and can't do anything to the rest of your PC, if you don't want to, and that's a huge difference.
tristanperry 6th June 2010, 00:46 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by jrs77
What you're thinking of is JavaRuntimeEnvironment, but that's again a PlugIn that you need to install, just like Flash.
JRE and Flash can be coded to access and modify files of your PC for example, which isn't possible with HTML, CSS or Javascript.

You can't do any harmful stuff with HTML or CSS at all and Javascript doesn't offer alot options either. Additionally the stuff JavaScript offers can be blocked by the settings of your browser, like disabling cross-site-scripting for example. HTML, CSS and JavaScript are run in the sandbox of the browser and can't do anything to the rest of your PC, if you don't want to, and that's a huge difference.
I'm not sure about Flash, however Java applets specifically *can't* access or modify files on your PC.

They only can [modify files, etc] if they are:

* Run as an application (hence wouldn't be web-based/loaded in the web-browser)
* Digitally signed (which requires the user's permission before loading and executing)
* Run via Java web start (and even then it doesn't exactly give 'full' access)

So yeah, I'm not sure about flash, but Java applets definitely can't be used for "harmful stuff"
Bakes 6th June 2010, 00:58 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by jrs77
What you're thinking of is JavaRuntimeEnvironment, but that's again a PlugIn that you need to install, just like Flash.
JRE and Flash can be coded to access and modify files of your PC for example, which isn't possible with HTML, CSS or Javascript.

You can't do any harmful stuff with HTML or CSS at all and Javascript doesn't offer alot options either. Additionally the stuff JavaScript offers can be blocked by the settings of your browser, like disabling cross-site-scripting for example. HTML, CSS and JavaScript are run in the sandbox of the browser and can't do anything to the rest of your PC, if you don't want to, and that's a huge difference.
I don't know. With Javascript, I certainly remember it being really easy to crash IE6, albeit a long time ago.

for (item in document.write) { document.write(item);}

:D

What I would say is that the prime attack route for exploiting Mac users is through Safari browser, where there are plenty of ways of using Javascript and the like in ways that allow the system to be exploited.

Charlie Miller, for example, got to the point where by having a user click one link in Safari you could take control of the system.

CSS and HTML are theoretically secure, but the ways that browsers implement them are inherently insecure, and no browser is totally secure.
leveller 6th June 2010, 01:18 Quote
The standards for HTML5 were not created by Apple. You Apple haters know that right?

They just support it as a functional, acceptable, power-friendly feature set, that works great with ALL mobile devices INCLUDING (but not limited to) Apple devices.
jrs77 6th June 2010, 01:19 Quote
Bakes 6th June 2010, 01:33 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by jrs77
JavaScript != Java-Applet.

JavaScript -> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/JavaScript

JavaApplet -> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Java_Runtime_Environment

Yes, they are different, we know, and neither of us were confusing the two. They are both exploitable, but the exploits for Javascript tend to be browser-dependent due to incorrect handling of the spec which makes them in some cases more dangerous.
Quote:
Originally Posted by leveller
The standards for HTML5 were not created by Apple. You Apple haters know that right?

They just support it as a functional, acceptable, power-friendly feature set, that works great with ALL mobile devices INCLUDING (but not limited to) Apple devices.

Actually, yes they were/are. Apple's part of the W3 Consortium, so it had a significant say as one of the world's largest tech companies in what should go into HTML5. One thing I remember it doing was making enough of a fuss to have the requirement for video codecs to be open in the <video> element removed, thus allowing it to muscle in with the proprietary H.264 codec, controlled by the MPEG-LA, of which, yet again, Apple is a member.

Oh, and btw, this news article was about some HTML5 demos Apple made, which only work correctly with Apple software due to a browser wall Apple put in place.
leveller 6th June 2010, 01:47 Quote
My point is that Apple does not dictate HTML5, something which the younger readers fail to realise. Trying to imply that they do dictate due to their corporate size is also an immature notion. W3C has achieved and will continue to achieve as much as they can to promote open standards.

The whole argument that Apple is trying to kill flash is a juvenile wet dream. Both HTML standards and Flash will continue side-by-side for years to come.
Bakes 6th June 2010, 02:07 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by leveller
My point is that Apple does not dictate HTML5, something which the younger readers fail to realise. Trying to imply that they do dictate due to their corporate size is also an immature notion. W3C has achieved and will continue to achieve as much as they can to promote open standards.

The whole argument that Apple is trying to kill flash is a juvenile wet dream. Both HTML standards and Flash will continue side-by-side for years to come.

I think that you should stop trying to label people as 'younger' in order to make them seem less mature or intelligent than yourself. It's not smart, and describing something as a 'juvenile wet-dream' is a great way to make yourself look as if you're just trying to provoke someone. It's also a great way to try and bolster your argument in your own eyes, but that's something completely different and is fatally flawed in quite a few ways.

Apple is trying to kill Flash on it's mobile devices. It's dictating to it's users that they should not be using it. It's blocked Flash -> iPhone compilers and Air -> iPhone compilers which were written to allow Flash developers to use iPhone for their products, using vague reasoning. It's so vague, in fact that the US authorities are investigating with the view to launching an anti-trust lawsuit.

W3C has achieved a lot, but the point is that corporations do have a say, and can exert their influence a lot more than smaller companies. For example, do you think that the Alzheimer Research Forum Foundation contributed much to HTML5? or Gijón City Council? No! It's the large corporations that will make a large proportions of the decisions.

Yes, it's an open standard, but that doesn't mean that corporations don't have a large say in the decisions.

Yes, HTML5 and Flash will live side-by-side, but at the moment Apple is trying to promote the virtues of a specification before it is even finished and before it has reached critical mass. HTML5 support in even the most forward-leaning browsers (Chrome 6 and Opera 10.6) is pretty poor, much slower than the supposedly less efficient Flash. I know that HTML5 is the future for many things, but the advantages are being somewhat overtouted by some and it's just not ready yet.
leveller 6th June 2010, 02:28 Quote
I would have to defend Apple and say it's not "trying" to kill off flash for it's mobile devices, it's already succeeded in that.

In defence of the coders, it's really up to them if they choose flash or HTML5, except on Apples mobile devices of course ... Unless a court tells Apple otherwise.
cyrilthefish 6th June 2010, 02:44 Quote
Question for people here:

What capacity does HTML5 have for making rudimentary applications? (if any)

Because Flash can and has been used to create games and so on (a fair few apps for the iphone are ports of said flash games).
IMHO This is the reason for Apple's near irrational hatred of flash: it is potential competition for the app store.

Some of the excuses Apple are giving may be somewhat valid, but be assured money is the real reason here
Furymouse 6th June 2010, 03:38 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by cyrilthefish

IMHO This is the reason for Apple's near irrational hatred of flash: it is potential competition for the app store.

Some of the excuses Apple are giving may be somewhat valid, but be assured money is the real reason here

This.
Pookeyhead 6th June 2010, 10:29 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by Neat69
If I were adobe i would just withdraw (or threaten to) all the Mac products, Mr. Jobs can then see how well mac sales go without Photoshop, illustrator etc...



Financial suicide. The majority of the creative industries use Macs.
Bakes 6th June 2010, 10:55 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pookeyhead
Financial suicide. The majority of the creative industries use Macs.

Bootcamp ;)

But yes, Adobe would never risk withdrawing their products from Mac (though they could do it quite successfully in the case of Photoshop because there is no product with the same high feature set.)

Adobe's clearly not happy with the Flash situation, but it still has Photoshop, Illustrator, InDesign, Acrobat, all de-facto high quality programs.
aeidau 6th June 2010, 14:03 Quote
Safari only?

It works fine with Trident, Webkit, and Presto based browsers but not with Gecko based web browsers.

Works with: Internet Explorer, Opera, Maxthon, Sleipnir, Chrome, Safari etc
Doesn't render properly with: Fire Fox, Flock etc
Bakes 6th June 2010, 14:12 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by aeidau
Safari only?

It works fine with Trident, Webkit, and Presto based browsers but not with Gecko based web browsers.

Works with: Internet Explorer, Opera, Maxthon, Sleipnir, Chrome, Safari etc
Doesn't render with: Fire Fox, Flock etc

What are you saying this list works fine with?

The HTML5 demos made by Apple, at http://www.apple.com/html5 do not work with any browser other than Safari. Internet Explorer doesn't even support HTML5 yet. Firefox supports HTML5 pretty well.
longerlife 6th June 2010, 23:32 Quote
What is this point of this ? You can recreate *some* of the things Flash does in some of the browsers.... What a HUGE leap forward!!

The video was stuttery for me on Windows 7, had no scrub bar and was a single layered video file (no full screen, shame).

The typography demo has been done to death with Flash, but you also have the option of localised content, right to left text, vertical text (for regions that read that way)....

The gallery was as dull as dishwater and again done many times before in Flash only much better and smoother.

The audio demo, look you can press a button to play music (no volume control?).

The transitions demo and the 360 degree, again done a million times in Flash, (oh and hey in Flash, you can have animated stuff transitioning too!)

The VR demo won't run on Windows, though I would like to see it....

So we should all abandon Flash because less than 0.05% (that's half of one percent) of the people accessing the internet (Apple's mobile iProducts) can't view the content, we should use html5! Oh dear, but 60% of the people use Internet Explorer (no html 5) and 25% use Firefox (no support for h.264 video in html5).

All of this to replicate what Flash does, but not quite as well.... Yeah where do I sign up?
BentAnat 7th June 2010, 08:38 Quote
Apple is NOT only locking the demo down to safari because Safari is their product.
They're doing it (also) because Safaris has more HTML5 features in it than most other browsers. The argument of "it's ironic that this is closed" seems rather narrow-minded and uninformed about the state of the technology. The standard is still in DRAFT stages.

Noone said that HTML5 was the thing of NOW. Merely "the thing of the future". IE9 should support at least rudimentary HTML5 and CSS3. Their demo already showed bits.
The fact that browser authors are focussing (and using it as marketing hype) on their Javascript engines says a LOT about the fact that they have realised that more and more sites are moving to Javascript and HTML/CSS rather than flash.


There is merrit in the statement that there are still applications for Flash (e.g. Games). HTML5 and CSS3 are not there, nor are they planning to be there. Flash will stay the platform for that (alongside SIlverlight and various lesser known platforms).

Apple is saying "Look - HTML5. We can do it. Not all browsers can yet. BUT - once it hits, you'll see a better web, one that works on mobile devices. One that works without having to download plugins. One that doesn't use extra overheads."
And, IMO, they're dead right.
Just watch the next year or two (maybe more).

To maybe give everyone a rough overview of what's how far in terms of HTML5:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comparison_of_layout_engines_%28HTML5%29
leveller 7th June 2010, 09:17 Quote
+ rep to you BentAnat, for your wording, reasoned debate and trying your best to educate the irrational.
Bakes 7th June 2010, 09:23 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by BentAnat
Apple is NOT only locking the demo down to safari because Safari is their product.
They're doing it (also) because Safaris has more HTML5 features in it than most other browsers. The argument of "it's ironic that this is closed" seems rather narrow-minded and uninformed about the state of the technology. The standard is still in DRAFT stages.

Unfortunately, it doesn't. The latest versions of Google Chrome support more features than Safari, according to beta.html5test.com, and Apple's use of HTML5 is quite limited. Granted, I use the developer version of Chrome so I don't know what it would be like in the so-called stable version, but I assume it would be much of the same.

It would be relatively simple for Apple to embed Javascript code that would check if a specific browser can or cannot handle the technology. That's how html5test does it, and the elements Apple is using are not even the most complicated parts of HTML5.

If Apple were trying to promote open standards, they'd use checks to see if the browser supported something instead of just assuming that it does not.
Quote:
Noone said that HTML5 was the thing of NOW. Merely "the thing of the future". IE9 should support at least rudimentary HTML5 and CSS3. Their demo already showed bits.
The fact that browser authors are focussing (and using it as marketing hype) on their Javascript engines says a LOT about the fact that they have realised that more and more sites are moving to Javascript and HTML/CSS rather than flash.

Correct, Javascript has traditionally been a weak part of IE.

I'd say that it is great that Apple are trying to push through HTML5. I do however think that they have an ulterior motive, and Flash is certainly not the piece of crap Apple makes it out to be in press releases, in fact even on OS X Flash in Chrome (using the fancy new plugin system I believe) is faster than HTML5 in Safari, in almost every way.

HTML5 is a great new standard, but Flash is also a tremendous technology, built on decades of development, and it's very well optimized.

It would be foolish to simply shun one without weighing up the benefits. There are great uses of HTML5, but there are also ways in which Flash is superior. There are many sites which could not have been made in Flash, but there are also sites which could be better done in HTML5.

Nevertheless, they are still important technologies, and we should not simply drop one for the other for simplicity's sake.
leveller 7th June 2010, 09:26 Quote
Safari 5 out this week and it adds more support for HTML5 and quite a few improvements. Should be interesting.
BentAnat 7th June 2010, 10:04 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bakes
Unfortunately, it doesn't. The latest versions of Google Chrome support more features than Safari, according to beta.html5test.com, and Apple's use of HTML5 is quite limited. Granted, I use the developer version of Chrome so I don't know what it would be like in the so-called stable version, but I assume it would be much of the same.

It would be relatively simple for Apple to embed Javascript code that would check if a specific browser can or cannot handle the technology. That's how html5test does it, and the elements Apple is using are not even the most complicated parts of HTML5.

If Apple were trying to promote open standards, they'd use checks to see if the browser supported something instead of just assuming that it does not.

More features does not mean the same. Worse yet (at this point in time) would be that even "the same" could mean slightly different interpretations of the standards. I mean - interpretation IS after all a major reason for browser incompatibilities.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bakes

I'd say that it is great that Apple are trying to push through HTML5. I do however think that they have an ulterior motive, and Flash is certainly not the piece of crap Apple makes it out to be in press releases, in fact even on OS X Flash in Chrome (using the fancy new plugin system I believe) is faster than HTML5 in Safari, in almost every way.

Flash is not the POS that apple make it out to be. Apple is not the devil that a (equally bitter) Adobe is painting. It is a fact though that Flash gets misused due to its ease of use.
As for speed - Silverlight used to be (not sure if it still is) faster than flash in some instances.
It's not quite worth pushing for pure speed if the standards are not yet finalised. I believ they're trying to push for implementation and standards finalization more than the pure speed argument.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bakes

HTML5 is a great new standard, but Flash is also a tremendous technology, built on decades of development, and it's very well optimized.

It would be foolish to simply shun one without weighing up the benefits. There are great uses of HTML5, but there are also ways in which Flash is superior. There are many sites which could not have been made in Flash, but there are also sites which could be better done in HTML5.

Nevertheless, they are still important technologies, and we should not simply drop one for the other for simplicity's sake.

Agree 100% on this. They're both great. Apple and Adobe are locked in a bit of a dongfight at the moment, with the pot calling the kettle black.
HTML5 is not here to replace flash in its entirety. It's not supposed to.
Adobe obviously feels threatened to an extent (as they would definitely lose marketshare - especially the bits of the market that misuse flash).
Apple is using their "cross platform" argument way too early.
Let's keep in mind that Adobe pushed for iPhone flash, and apple pushed for native integration for flash on mac products a while ago. Both were too stubborn.
Bakes 7th June 2010, 11:02 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by BentAnat
More features does not mean the same. Worse yet (at this point in time) would be that even "the same" could mean slightly different interpretations of the standards. I mean - interpretation IS after all a major reason for browser incompatibilities.

Chrome and Safari both use the same rendering engine, the only difference is usually the version. A simple disclaimer that says 'This is designed to work on Safari, there may be issues if you don't have it', like all those websites back in the time of IE6 did would be a great way of showing HTML5.

Misinterpretation has not been such of a problem in the past. What has been a problem is Microsoft choosing to selectively ignore parts of the HTML spec in favour of it's own, usually rubbish version.
Quote:
Flash is not the POS that apple make it out to be. Apple is not the devil that a (equally bitter) Adobe is painting. It is a fact though that Flash gets misused due to its ease of use.
As for speed - Silverlight used to be (not sure if it still is) faster than flash in some instances.
It's not quite worth pushing for pure speed if the standards are not yet finalised. I believ they're trying to push for implementation and standards finalization more than the pure speed argument.

Yes, Silverlight is under-used in the whole marketplace. I love that demo where it changes the video bitrate dynamically based on what your connection speed is.
Although, I'm not totally sure what Silverlight is good for :D since there are so few examples of it in general use.
Quote:
Agree 100% on this. They're both great. Apple and Adobe are locked in a bit of a dongfight at the moment, with the pot calling the kettle black.
HTML5 is not here to replace flash in its entirety. It's not supposed to.
Adobe obviously feels threatened to an extent (as they would definitely lose marketshare - especially the bits of the market that misuse flash).
Apple is using their "cross platform" argument way too early.
Let's keep in mind that Adobe pushed for iPhone flash, and apple pushed for native integration for flash on mac products a while ago. Both were too stubborn.

Apple is having a little bit of a hissy fit though, and Adobe hasn't made any deliberately provocative moves.

For example, Adobe writes compiler for iPhone that compiles flash applications into iPhone apps to appease Apple and make life easier for the millions of Flash developers to develop for iPhone. Apple blocks said compiler, saying it would lead to substandard applications (though interestingly, they use an identical technique when they run iTunes on Windows).
jrs77 7th June 2010, 11:08 Quote
Bakes 7th June 2010, 11:12 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by jrs77
To spill some oil into the fire....

http://www.bit-tech.net/news/bits/2010/06/07/adobe-warns-of-flash-acrobat-attack/1

Unrelated. That's to do with Acrobat embedding Flash and Shockwave files in such a way that they could be harmful. It's nothing at all to do with Flash embedded in browsers. Sorry to disappoint.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Guy at Sophos
Mind you, maybe I wouldn't be so bothered about that in actual fact. After all, when would I ever want to open a PDF containing ShockWave Flash content inside it?
BentAnat 7th June 2010, 12:24 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bakes
Chrome and Safari both use the same rendering engine, the only difference is usually the version. A simple disclaimer that says 'This is designed to work on Safari, there may be issues if you don't have it', like all those websites back in the time of IE6 did would be a great way of showing HTML5.

Misinterpretation has not been such of a problem in the past. What has been a problem is Microsoft choosing to selectively ignore parts of the HTML spec in favour of it's own, usually rubbish version.

Yes, it might be the more polite way of doing it. But it's business as well. I'd have done the same, were I in Apple's shoes. The little disclaimer also has the issue that 80% of people don't read disclaimers (like - EVER) and would go "ZOMG!SUXXASS!!!!" when they view it in IE6. This way they go "ZOMG!Hipocrites" and install Safari, see the demo the way it's supposed to be and ONLY that way.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bakes

Yes, Silverlight is under-used in the whole marketplace. I love that demo where it changes the video bitrate dynamically based on what your connection speed is.
Although, I'm not totally sure what Silverlight is good for :D since there are so few examples of it in general use.

Silverlight can do most things that Flash can, actually. Jut the tools are expensive. Expression Blend, Visual Studio, etc. But it has some cool features, and occasionally is faster than the competition. Biggest advantage that Silverlight has is probably the .NET familiarity.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bakes

Apple is having a little bit of a hissy fit though, and Adobe hasn't made any deliberately provocative moves.

For example, Adobe writes compiler for iPhone that compiles flash applications into iPhone apps to appease Apple and make life easier for the millions of Flash developers to develop for iPhone. Apple blocks said compiler, saying it would lead to substandard applications (though interestingly, they use an identical technique when they run iTunes on Windows).

Not quite correct, actually.

Apple has been talking to adobe about native flash implementation into iPhone OS for a while. the condition was that Adobe doesn't get to see native OS code (which is understandable, given that this could lead to - well - crashing, etc if not handled right). Effectively this woulld've led to Apple people working with Adobe on mobile Flash. This would've helped with Flash's lack of touch input, etc. Adobe said "nein". This is a LONG time ago, already, and all from memory. Not sure where I read that anymore, so it MIGHT be inaccurate.

Then Adobe did their own, rather sketchy implementation of Flash on iPhone OS 3 (i think).
Apple had no issues with it, except that it was sketchy, and not near as smooth as it would've been had they taken Apple's native implementation route, hence Apple declining a native implementation, and starting to introduce quality control standards. Adobe didn't meet them, and the Flash app got blocked.
Given Apple's reputation for "stuff that works", this is understandable, and quite possibly a prudent move.

Then apple announced iPhone SDK 4, which would cripple the Flash compiler that Adobe wrote, due to better security.
Adobe threw their toys out of the cot and beisdes their Evangelists telling apple to "Go screw yourself", threatened to sue Apple over this. A move which clearly says "WTF! We invested all this money and now it doesn't work...FU, Apple.", rather than going "oh sh** - didn't see that coming".
It's at this point that Steve Jobs decided to publish the infamous Open Letter, mentioning why he thinks Adobe is reacting wrong, and tried to pull his company into a light that's better than the Adobe-warped lighting it was in at the time.
Adobe countered this with a very sarcastic ad campaign openly beating Apple with it.

It's really a nasty game that both sides are playing at the moment. Noone's quite right, and both companies' moves are understandable.
Bakes 7th June 2010, 12:41 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by BentAnat
Yes, it might be the more polite way of doing it. But it's business as well. I'd have done the same, were I in Apple's shoes. The little disclaimer also has the issue that 80% of people don't read disclaimers (like - EVER) and would go "ZOMG!SUXXASS!!!!" when they view it in IE6. This way they go "ZOMG!Hipocrites" and install Safari, see the demo the way it's supposed to be and ONLY that way.

No, I wasn't suggesting that. If it detected that required elements weren't there, it would terminate and suggest Safari. If however it detect the elements were there, it should launch and say that if you have any problems, try Safari.

For me, I just thought "Screw this, I'm not using Safari!" and found the developer version that works fine with Chrome.

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Silverlight can do most things that Flash can, actually. Jut the tools are expensive. Expression Blend, Visual Studio, etc. But it has some cool features, and occasionally is faster than the competition. Biggest advantage that Silverlight has is probably the .NET familiarity.

That's kinda cool. Flash is expensive too, though, and for people who generally can't afford expensive software (students, mainly), Microsoft makes their software available free.
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Not quite correct, actually.

Apple has been talking to adobe about native flash implementation into iPhone OS for a while. the condition was that Adobe doesn't get to see native OS code (which is understandable, given that this could lead to - well - crashing, etc if not handled right). Effectively this woulld've led to Apple people working with Adobe on mobile Flash. This would've helped with Flash's lack of touch input, etc. Adobe said "nein". This is a LONG time ago, already, and all from memory. Not sure where I read that anymore, so it MIGHT be inaccurate.

How long ago is long ago? I remember that at the start of '09 Adobe had said that they were working with Apple to move it across, and before that Steve Jobs had said that he needed a middle version of Flash - between Flash Lite and Flash Desktop.
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Then Adobe did their own, rather sketchy implementation of Flash on iPhone OS 3 (i think).
Apple had no issues with it, except that it was sketchy, and not near as smooth as it would've been had they taken Apple's native implementation route, hence Apple declining a native implementation, and starting to introduce quality control standards. Adobe didn't meet them, and the Flash app got blocked.
Given Apple's reputation for "stuff that works", this is understandable, and quite possibly a prudent move.
I think this depends on where you read your news. CS5 has a compiler in that compiles Flash to iPhone applications, and some of those apps did get into the app store. I'd argue that if those apps were substandard, they wouldn't have managed to get in, based on the fact that Apple has refused apps in the past simply for not offering enough information.
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Then apple announced iPhone SDK 4, which would cripple the Flash compiler that Adobe wrote, due to better security.
Adobe threw their toys out of the cot and beisdes their Evangelists telling apple to "Go screw yourself", threatened to sue Apple over this. A move which clearly says "WTF! We invested all this money and now it doesn't work...FU, Apple.", rather than going "oh sh** - didn't see that coming".
I'm not sure this was the case. I'm pretty sure that it works fine, even with SDK4, but the only thing that blocked it was the agreement, which says that you can only develop in Objective C or C++. That pretty much blocked both Adobe or Novell (who ported .NET to the iPhone and also had apps in the appstore (I think Novell had a few hundred).
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It's at this point that Steve Jobs decided to publish the infamous Open Letter, mentioning why he thinks Adobe is reacting wrong, and tried to pull his company into a light that's better than the Adobe-warped lighting it was in at the time.
Adobe countered this with a very sarcastic ad campaign openly beating Apple with it.

It's really a nasty game that both sides are playing at the moment. Noone's quite right, and both companies' moves are understandable.

Agree with that. I still think that Apple is wrong with their decision to block Adobe from the app store. Even if the apps were substandard, surely they'd just have been removed by Apple's censors?
BentAnat 7th June 2010, 12:59 Quote
I think we're talking past one another ;)
Apple (with SDK4) blocked a few native code options, which (AFAIK - i haven't used flash on an iPhone or the iPhone SDK) effectivel blocks the CS5 compiler.
As for the app store, It sounds to me like the problem isn't the flsh app, but rather the flash itself...
Bakes 7th June 2010, 13:09 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by BentAnat
I think we're talking past one another ;)
Apple (with SDK4) blocked a few native code options, which (AFAIK - i haven't used flash on an iPhone or the iPhone SDK) effectivel blocks the CS5 compiler.
As for the app store, It sounds to me like the problem isn't the flsh app, but rather the flash itself...

Yeah, I'd pretty much agree with that +rep
BentAnat 8th June 2010, 08:38 Quote
Repped you right back.

Just to showcase some HTML5 that DOES work in browsers other than Safari (FF 3.6.3 for me):
Some Pseudo Parallax stuff
Particles doing text and stuff
Mouse sensitive liquid particles demo thing
The Mezmerizer

and for two really impressive ones (to me):
Cloth Simulation
Blowing up real streaming video

Of course, these are all HMTL5 and Javascript.

These, and more, here
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