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Mozilla takes offense to Safari

Mozilla takes offense to Safari

"You bad, bad man...and need wardrobe change!" - Mozilla's COO John Lilly says Jobs is "out of date" over this slide.

Some days, it really doesn't take much to get someone in this industry insulted. If you say the wrong thing or take a product for granted, it's easy to end up with a vitriolic email in your box. Of course, you could also just leave out an entire browser from your slides when you port your browser to Windows, as Steve Jobs did. Mozilla Foundation's COO John Lilly was not amused. At all.

Lilly took aim at Apple Corporation, Safari and Steve Jobs in particular in his blog after the conclusion of Apple's World Wide Developer Conference last week. The issue in question was a whopping one slide from the entirety of the Safari for Windows launch, where Jobs apparently showed Safari's only competition as Internet Explorer in the future, which dominates roughly 80 percent of the browser market.

In his post, Lilly opened fire - according to his theory, Jobs did not just omit Firefox accidentally in its future view. Instead, he believes that Apple's top guy sees Firefox users as "in the bag" for Safari, creating a "duopoly" between Microsoft's browser and its own. Of course, such an assumption could easily be regarded as total hubris.

Lilly goes on to describe Apple's whole product offering and Steve's vision for the company at large as "out of date" and "corporate-controlled." As the post continues, he illustrates how Apple's move is not just foolish to think about, but would be a disaster if it were to come true. A direct quote from John's dystopian nightmare:

"Even if we could somehow put that movement back in the bottle — that a world of just Starbucks & Peets, just Wal-mart & Target, just Ford & GM — that a world of tight control from a few companies is good, it’s the wrong thing to do. It destroys participation, it destroys engagement, it destroys self-determination. And, ultimately, it wrecks the quality of the end-user experience, too."

Whether Apple and Steve-o intended this particular presentation to ruffle so many feathers will likely never be known, but one thing is for sure - it certainly got under the skin of some people. Of course, if the company can't get the bugs out of Safari for Windows, we somehow don't think it will be much of a problem anyhow.

Have you got a thought on the sleight? Tell us about whether you're offended or not in our forums.

26 Comments

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Amon 19th June 2007, 07:57 Quote
I'm actually hoping to see Safari through. Apple's simplicity vogue (a la ubiquitous iPod) may win a few hearts next year as browsing trends tend to shift quickly.
Ramble 19th June 2007, 08:08 Quote
Unlikely I think. Every piece of Apple osftware I've ever used has been utter crap on Windows, Safari will never get through.
DougEdey 19th June 2007, 08:12 Quote
Either Jobs was being very naive or very stupid. You can't just forget browsers, Netscape is still about (all though it's becoming a social bookmarking site now).

I've even moved my Media Player to a Mozilla software based solution (Songbird beta) as it looks like a smoother version of iTunes.
AngelOfRage 19th June 2007, 10:25 Quote
I really dislike IE and use mainly Firefox at home and at work, although certain web based applications at work need to use IE, i've found i can use an addon to open IE inside a Firefox tab. Basically as far as i'm concerned Firefox rules the roost when it comes to browsers and most of my friends feel the same way. I can't see me changing to Safari, i've always seen Apple as being style over substance, fashion over function, not something i'd ever buy into.
will. 19th June 2007, 10:30 Quote
Safari is pretty, and that's about it... Come to think of it.. On vista it just looks ugly as the aero theme is completely dropped. Without it, it just sticks out like a sore thumb.

I do like that 3D bookmark window though :p
SNIPERMikeUK 19th June 2007, 10:35 Quote
I admit it's faster at loading pages, but the beta does not even minimize in x64 vista, it will not display help stuff on pages when u leave your mouse over an icon (i.e. play.com tell u the price of some products in the top sellers list). Mozilla are miles ahead and internet explorer 7 is a vast improvement over the last.

So there is no need for Apple in this market, for god sake
Apple go and make me an iTunes for x64 vista that installs and runs well, without having to resort to installing through apple update for windows.
David_Fitzy 19th June 2007, 10:57 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by DougEdey
I've even moved my Media Player to a Mozilla software based solution (sunbird beta) as it looks like a smoother version of iTunes.
Mozilla Sunbird is a calender app or have I missed something :?

I shall be sticking firmly to firefox. (with IE tabs for those made for IE sites)
DougEdey 19th June 2007, 10:59 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by David_Fitzy
Mozilla Sunbird is a calender app or have I missed something :?

I shall be sticking firmly to firefox. (with IE tabs for those made for IE sites)

Oops, typo, meant Songbird
Mother-Goose 19th June 2007, 11:01 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by AngelOfRage
I really dislike IE and use mainly Firefox at home and at work, although certain web based applications at work need to use IE, i've found i can use an addon to open IE inside a Firefox tab. Basically as far as i'm concerned Firefox rules the roost when it comes to browsers and most of my friends feel the same way. I can't see me changing to Safari, i've always seen Apple as being style over substance, fashion over function, not something i'd ever buy into.

got a link for that plugin? Or a name at least? I could do with it, my post office credit card login doesn't work in FF....or IE7 for some reason.
DougEdey 19th June 2007, 11:05 Quote
Hugo 19th June 2007, 11:08 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by DougEdey
nieve(sp)
Naive actually, your way looks like it could be right though :s

Could it be that Steve-O was intentionally not including Firefox's market in the chart because he doesn't see himself as competing with them? I don't be the problem with Steve saying "Look, I.E. have 3x as much market as us, we're going after that"
Hugo.B 19th June 2007, 11:11 Quote
Songbird is good, now they've ironed most of the bugs out.
The just need to incorporate tabs and extensions.


H.B.
Jamie 19th June 2007, 11:14 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by DougEdey
I've even moved my Media Player to a Mozilla software based solution (Songbird beta) as it looks like a smoother version of iTunes.

Songbird looks pretty swish although it didn't quite seem as polished as iTunes did when I tried it. I'm willing to give it another go though.
Quote:
Originally Posted by will.
I do like that 3D bookmark window though :p

The what now?
DougEdey 19th June 2007, 11:17 Quote
There are a few minor bugs (it keeps asking me to add new media and import from itunes whenever it boots), but the inbuilt Wikipedia and googling style capabilities are brilliant, I know it's been done elsewhere, but I like the styles and extensions available for the program.
Darkedge 19th June 2007, 11:46 Quote
"Lilly goes on to describe Apple's whole product offering and Steve's vision for the company at large as "out of date" and "corporate-controlled.""

yup Steve just wants to be Bill Gates and doesn't care how he does it - the guys a meglomaniac.
Safari is horrible even on a Mac - give me open source anyday. Firefox rocks.
DXR_13KE 19th June 2007, 12:53 Quote
total hubris indeed....

songbird = farting birds..... :p
TheVoice 19th June 2007, 13:03 Quote
I think the problem that Apple will face is that only a certain number of people ever bother switching browsers. Most people use IE because that's what their PC comes with and that's what they're used to. Same applies to Safari - Macs come with Safari, therefore Mac users use Safari. Only a small percentage of either camp will ever decide to use a different browser; most people don't care or are too ignorant to know about alternatives.

Evidently Safari isn't gathering much of a following amongst the users of both Firefox, Opera etc or IE - most people dislike it for various reasons and are happy enough with what they've got. I just don't really see what Safari has to offer the non-IE group that they don't have already.

My main concern is that Apple start packing Safari with iTunes and just happen to have the 'Install Safari and allow it to take over my entire PC' option ticked by default during the installation process. Plenty of people never bother to read those options, so upon updating iTunes they'll suddenly find themselves using the browser that Apple tell them to.
iwog 19th June 2007, 13:35 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheVoice
...My main concern is that Apple start packing Safari with iTunes and just happen to have the 'Install Safari and allow it to take over my entire PC' option ticked by default during the installation process. Plenty of people never bother to read those options, so upon updating iTunes they'll suddenly find themselves using the browser that Apple tell them to.

So true, and i've never liked the whole itunes - itunes store tie in. I've often wanted to just browse the store to see what they've got but i'll be dammed if i'm going to install a horrible program just to do so. I'll stick with winamp (i know its no the best but i like it) and FF with IE7 for all the M$ sites that have active x or some other rubbish
Quote:
Originally Posted by AngelOfRage
i've always seen Apple as being style over substance, fashion over function, not something i'd ever buy into.

Rofl that should be Apple's new marketing slogan, Apple: Style over substance, fashion over function.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Amon
I'm actually hoping to see Safari through. Apple's simplicity vogue (a la ubiquitous iPod) may win a few hearts next year as browsing trends tend to shift quickly.

Dont get me wrong i think moving people away from IE is a good thing but the way you talk about it you seem to imply you want less market diversity. I dont think thats right, there are a few "special" cases where monoplies and duopolies are right but in this case its not. It would reduce RnD as new features and security are the only things current browsers have fight over. And that fight should be improving the quality of both. If you remove the need to fight you remove the need to improve.
Bluephoenix 19th June 2007, 16:42 Quote
if that's ever going to happen (which is already incredibly unlikely) they need to get it to the point where it isn't a door in for crackers, and also actually works in at least some resemblance to the way its supposed to. (see jazzle's pic in the original safari discussion)
boiled_elephant 19th June 2007, 16:54 Quote
The masses jumping from IE to Safari would be insubstantial - they're both put out by giant corporations with monopolistic ambitions.

Incidentally,
no. of people at my college who use IE: ~600
no. of people who use Firefox: ~150
no. of people who use Safari: ~3

Seriously, nobody knows what the hell it is. Only the Mac users, and even a few of them that I know resent it, and wouldn't port it to windows.
antiHero 19th June 2007, 17:55 Quote
I still cant believe tha 80% of the browser market is IE.
I know nobody who uses IE. My school is all FF and the last company i worked for also uses FF as standard. Even my Parents use FF. Ok i told them to do so but they like it so much that they tell all there friends to switch too.
Safari aint got a chance IMHO to get a bigger marketshare if they dont budle it into iTunes as other sad.

Just my 2 cent
<A88> 19th June 2007, 18:03 Quote
IE might not be the best product out there, but having got IE7 by default with Windows I don't feel much need to install Opera right now. It works fine and is close enough to the competition to keep me satisfied. There are features that I miss from Opera but IE7 seems to make up for it in other ways.

<A88>
Lakeuk 19th June 2007, 23:03 Quote
I've always used IE6 until resently because of the Greasemonkey plugin for Firefox
Drexial 20th June 2007, 01:45 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by antiHero
I still cant believe tha 80% of the browser market is IE.

its only 80% of the comparison. its a ratio of Safari to IE users, doesn't take into account any alternative browser, and in the forgotten browsers, what about opera, i know allot of people on this site prefer opera, not me personally, i've been using firefox since it got its start as phoenix.

does anybody have an actual breakdown number, for % of users that actualy include firefox and opera?

edit : ok a quick search i answered my own question, this is probably just for this site. but its still interesting information http://www.w3schools.com/browsers/browsers_stats.asp
completemadness 20th June 2007, 16:15 Quote
IE is pretty popular because its already there, my college uses IE, my last 2 schools used IE as well
i think they like the integration with the group policies

IE's biggest problem is MS pulled development for it for like 5 years, a lot of the standards integration is poor, and half assed (like CSS) often requiring 1 page done right and an alternate page that has all the nasty hacks IE needs

personally ATM i don't like any of the browsers
IE for its poor standards support, and ActiveX causing security issues
Firefox because its a bit bloated, moderately fast at pages, but it does have an excellent plug in system which is why i use it
Opera's widgets just aren't a substitute for Firefox yet
Safari doesn't even come into the equation until the bugs are fixed, even then so far i haven't liked apples software
FR34K 22nd June 2007, 06:08 Quote
I'd stick by Mozilla on this one.

I'm all up for Apple trying to compete, but their ego's starting to get the better of them.

I hate IE, and never use it, and I probably won't use any other browser as long as FireFox is still up and running.
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