Sony sued for Blu-ray patent

Never likedthe way blu ray was marketed and brought to market hope it dies

the forum link for this doesnt go to this thread.. just sent me to the forums...


I'm not sure what to make of this really.. small company just playing oportunist here, or is Sony being even more stupid?

god i want blu-ray to fail so badly. this format war is completely stupid and is bad for both industry and consumers. HD-DVD is more widely supported, cheaper, and easier to implement for fabrication plants. did i mention it's not owned by sony either?

i hope you bring sony to its knees, small random company!

I side with Sony on this one. Sony was demoing the Blu-Ray years before it's release, and now suddenly the lawsuit hits, just as Blu-Ray starts to edge over HD DVD in sales. And how come they are targetting Sony, and not the Blu-Ray Association, Sony isn't the only investor, and I doubt they are the only manufacturers of Blu-Ray discs.

I hate our patent system. It's used by these smaller companies as a cash cow, more than it is as a protection of their ideas these days.

Originally Posted by Fod

i hope you bring sony to its knees, small random company!

Amen!

Originally Posted by Fod
I hope you bring Sony to its knees, small random company!

Well said.
I too wish Bluray vanishes off the face of the earth even if its the "superior" format it still doesn't really make anyone forgive a company's mass wrong doings.

Ha.

Eat that Sony.

IIRC Sony are the only manufacturers of the diodes, hence why they are being sued

But from I have gathered the lawsuit is against the use of the protective coating on the discs themselves. Not the diodes.

I want to comment on the blind hate for Blu-Ray (Saying things like HD DVD has more support makes me wonder if you are even credible given the info available about both formats right now) but I won't with the exception of this post.

Sounds to me like everyone's saying "Blu-Ray should fail just because I said so, and because Sony is behind it all", which seems totally irrational.

Okay... why do you say that? Of course most of us don't even like Sony, myself included, but who cares? Blu-Ray is superior to HD-DVD. I would like the best technology to win, but if Sony keeps this up it's going to end up like Betamax versus VHS, where the inferior format wins.

final nail in the coffin?

Originally Posted by L2wis
final nail in the coffin?

This final nail quote is used a bit too often I think. How many final nails are there. Can only have one and there also has to be a coffin first and Blue Ray aint Dead.

I dont think Sony will let this kill Blue Ray

The fact is that most people are against the business practices of the company that created it and as such its not a "blind hate", it's a hate for the company and to see that company fail at any point would be of great satisfaction to those of us that dislike them (Sony).

Why is it that you say Blu-ray is a superior technology? Just because it holds more data?
Hardly a good reason. It's like saying outright that Mitsubishi (or some other arbitrary company) makes the best cars because the Evo has more BHP than a Ford Focus.
What you have to look at in the long term is that what makes the car great as a whole. The Ford would be the better to the majority of people out there because of good availability and easy to get parts.

The fact that Sony basically don't licence anything to do with blu-ray to anyone (generally cheap 3rd party manufacturers) unlike will be done with HD-DVD (which results in cheap players) shows that there may be little to no future from the product due to bad business practices.

Blu-Ray is great on the tech specs but the company's past exploits really does lead one to believe that it will be too expensive for most people and when it does come done in price it'll be too little too late or support would have already shifted to the one that is cheapest as it will generally have a higher installed user base.

(Hopefully everything makes sense, its bad analogy's I know but it'd the best I can do right now :p)

Originally Posted by BioSniper

Blu-Ray is great on the tech specs but the company's past exploits really does lead one to believe that it will be too expensive for most people and when it does come done in price it'll be too little too late or support would have already shifted to the one that is cheapest as it will generally have a higher installed user base.

(Hopefully everything makes sense, its bad analogy's I know but it'd the best I can do right now :p)

Its what people have been saying for along time about Blu-Ray. it doesn't matter whether its technically superior because on mass people won't care they'll got for the option that hurts their pocket the least which means the one that's got the widest support on the market and is also easiest and cheapest to manufacture (HD-DVD).

But it's already been proven that Blu-Ray will cost the same maybe $100 more come this summer so that argument of easiest and cheapest hasn't held water since Bit Tech reported it themselves on the $300 Blu-Ray player. And as for BioSpiner I find that pretty hypocritical. So many of you talk about M$ <--- (Example) and how Windows should fail or that MS bullies smaller companies, but yet you wholly support HD DVD and have a Live account. So how this now double standards as far "people" go with Sony? Sony has some shady practices, let’s hate them all and the format they support. But we will just pretend Microsoft isn't the same way and claim their format is better because it's cheaper (isn't the case anymore) and more widely support (Sales data says otherwise).

Chances are they will just end up settling out of court for a ridiculous amount of money and Target Technologies will walk away a hundred million dollars richer and Sony will continue to sell BR tech. If course until more details are available no one will know anything.

Sony hasn't even had a chance to defend itself yet and most of you guys are already casting them into the fire. Wait for the facts before you get the pitchforks and torches.

Yes.... of course HD-DVD is more widely supported than Blu-Ray:

To avoid 3rd party bias, lets go by the listed supporters on each formats official websites:

HD-DVD: Warner Bros, HBO, New Line Cinema, Paramount, Universal Studios, HP, Intel and Microsoft. That's 8 companies who are willing to have their names on the HD-DVD site as supporters of the format.

Blu-Ray: Apple, Buena Vista, Dell, Fox, Hitachi, HP, LG, Lionsgate, MGM, Mitsubushi, Panasonic, Paramount, Philips, Pioneer, Samsung, Sharp, Sony (of course), Sun Microsystems, Thompson, Universal, Walt Disney and Warner Bros. So that's 23 companies who are willing to show their support for Blu-Ray on the official website.

Oh, and 3 of them are on both lists (Warner Bros, HP, Universal) so can't be counted as for or against either format.

Now yes, I'll admit that there are more supporters for HD-DVD than their website makes out. But I'm not trying to support HD-DVD, so I;m not going out of my way to find that evidence.

Please people think before you say things just because you read it on slashdot...

Originally Posted by BioSniper
Why is it that you say Blu-ray is a superior technology? Just because it holds more data?
Hardly a good reason. It's like saying outright that Mitsubishi (or some other arbitrary company) makes the best cars because the Evo has more BHP than a Ford Focus.
What you have to look at in the long term is that what makes the car great as a whole. The Ford would be the better to the majority of people out there because of good availability and easy to get parts.

Seems like "it holds more data" is still a good reason for me. Everything else you listed doesn't have anything to do with technology. Not that I'm saying what you said is worthless.

Originally Posted by themax
But it's already been proven that Blu-Ray will cost the same maybe $100

Not being harsh here but $100 when translated over here in the UK is usually £100 (~$200).
Now that may not be much to you and me but it's one hell of a lot to most people that I know. It's the difference between being able to afford something and not, I know that if I couldn't afford it I would buy the best I could which would always be the cheaper option.
Small price differentiations count for quite a bit when it comes to things like format wars, it's just a case of who gets there first.

The other thing is a lot of us Europeans want to see it fail because we fall foul of Sony's ill business plans more frequently than you guys over in the US, look for example at the PS3, MANY months later while a fair bit more expensive.
Essentially we gain less support from Sony than anywhere else in the world.
Why should we NOT hate them for penalising us just for living in Europe?

::edit:: Also, I knew my post may be a "light the blue touch paper and stand well back" type thing but seriously. :p

Now of those 28 lets count how many are subsidiaries of sony....

Originally Posted by themax
I hate our patent system. It's used by these smaller companies as a cash cow, more than it is as a protection of their ideas these days.

In a market where even a simple idea often costs millions to market a small start-up company often relies on the patent as a essential revenue. Only by using the patent as a springboard to create capital can they even attempt to break into a market.

Or would you rather see the whole economy run by huge conglomerate company's? Don't think that'd do too much for consumer choice.

As near as I can tell one of the objectives for sony with blu-ray, as it has been with quite a few of the previous formats they've tried to introduce, was sole control over it so they can for instance keep the price high (they've said they were very annoyed at DVD's selling so cheap so fast for an example because they didn't have control)

If there were other major disc producers the pr0n industry might not have chosen HD-DVD after sony refused to allow it onto discs out of there plants.

Lastly if they chose not to pay licensing fees for rumble technology, I guess I wouldn't be too surprised if they'd done the same for a technology that made the discs cheaper to produce and was maybe a bit harder to notice.

If BD prices have to go up because of this, then the format will fail. If Sony settle out of court, but keep the prices the same, then the format war will continue.

Personally I would prefer it if it came back to a single format for HD movies. The BD format can still stay around data recording, just like DVD-Rs ...

But no point second guessing, just sit back and watch what happens. If you love your movies, get both formats. HD-DVD players are cheap right now, and BD can be got using the PS3. Yes, if one goes tits up you will lose some money, but thats a price I am willing to pay to get HD movies now rather than wait for everything to settle down.

Originally Posted by monkeyville
In a market where even a simple idea often costs millions to market a small start-up company often relies on the patent as a essential revenue. Only by using the patent as a springboard to create capital can they even attempt to break into a market.

Or would you rather see the whole economy run by huge conglomerate company's? Don't think that'd do too much for consumer choice.

That isn't what I meant by that comment. I mean that, the simplest feature on things are patented so much to the point where it doesn't make sense. A protective layer on your discs in patented? Really now. The immersion lawsuit I could understand, but protecting your disc surface? Oh please. A small startup company advertising their patent, yes, go for it, but a small startup company lying in wait for a company to "infringe" on their unused patent I don't agree with.

Originally Posted by BioSniper
Not being harsh here but $100 when translated over here in the UK is usually £100 (~$200).
<snip>look for example at the PS3, MANY months later while a fair bit more expensive.
Essentially we gain less support from Sony than anywhere else in the world.
Why should we NOT hate them for penalising us just for living in Europe?

Em, if I'm not mistaken nearly everything is more expensive in the UK than in the US, not just Sony products. And I'm also pretty sure Sony is not the only company who focuses on a US release more than a UK release - I imagine it could have something to do with the population of the US being about 5x more than the population of the UK.

In the end, I have always liked Sony products. I believe most Sony products are in fact well priced, it's hard to find a better value than a Sony TV or stereo. The whole purpose of a next generation media format is to have higher capacity - and Blu-Ray does meet that requirement, why settle for HD-DVD? It's really not like MS is a wonderful company now. In my opinion, lately all MS is releasing is trash that falls short of being competitive (Zune, XBox 360, HD-DVD) and hoping a slightly lower price tag will help create another monopoly.

L J

Originally Posted by Colonel Sanders
I imagine it could have something to do with the population of the US being about 5x more than the population of the UK.

But Europe has a larger population than North America.

Sony are definitely one of the worst electronics companies when it comes to screwing over Europeans. They make us wait 6 months plus for products with reduced functionality and then charge us double for the privilege.

Blu-ray? No thanks Sony

Originally Posted by alextwo
But Europe has a larger population than North America.

Sony are definitely one of the worst electronics companies when it comes to screwing over Europeans. They make us wait 6 months plus for products with reduced functionality and then charge us double for the privilege.

Blu-ray? No thanks Sony

End of the Day its a Japanese company and to say europeans are screwed over is stupid. Your lucky they are multinational and sell in europe. You know they could just keep their products to themselves in japan.

Also if your moaning that you have to pay double for everything then when you go to work ask for a pay cut. Then if we all do that inflation will lower and prices will lower.

Originally Posted by Bladestorm
As near as I can tell one of the objectives for sony with blu-ray, as it has been with quite a few of the previous formats they've tried to introduce, was sole control over it so they can for instance keep the price high (they've said they were very annoyed at DVD's selling so cheap so fast for an example because they didn't have control)

Thats just business. Youd expect any company to want complete control over its products and maximise profit.

If I sold a product, I wouldnt want to loose control over it and for others to get rich off my product, and neither does anyone else.

Originally Posted by mikeuk2004
End of the Day its a Japanese company and to say europeans are screwed over is stupid. Your lucky they are multinational and sell in europe. You know they could just keep their products to themselves in japan.

Are you really saying that i should thank my luck every morning because i have access to Sony products. Whose to say there wouldn't be a European alternative if Sony hadn't got into the market first?

Originally Posted by monkeyville
Are you really saying that i should thank my luck every morning because i have access to Sony products. Whose to say there wouldn't be a European alternative if Sony hadn't got into the market first?

European alternative? Fair enough. However, would it be compatible with what the rest of the world uses? When you wake up in the morning, look around to see how many of the items you use on a daily basis are made in a foreign country.

L J

I don't hate Sony but what they did was wrong and they should have to pay for it

Originally Posted by The_Beast
I don't hate Sony but what they did was wrong and they should have to pay for it

First they have to be proven wrong. My guess is it's gonna settle out of court.

Blu_Ray really isn't all that impressive: what it makes up for in size it lacks in read-write speed. As an example, the PS3 has to continually stream data from it's games onto the hard drive just to keep the load times low when extra data is required.

Personally, I think HD-DVD will win simply because it's the simpler technology, cheaper to build and distribute, and there isn't so much control around it. Sony seem to be obsessed with controlling 100% every technology they ever come up with, they wanted to be more in control of DVDs, they invented their PSP video format that only the PSP could play, the next gen of DVDs they want all to themselves, I don't think this strategy is winning them many fans outside the industry to be honest

Originally Posted by mikeuk2004
Also if your moaning that you have to pay double for everything then when you go to work ask for a pay cut. Then if we all do that inflation will lower and prices will lower.

It has nothing to do with inflation. Comparing US dollar prices to US Dollar prices, we are properly ripped off even taking relevant taxes into account.

Then if we want to buy one of Sony's wonderful products early and cheaper from abroad, Sony tells us we're not allowed to do that and sues the companies.

I've had enough of Sony so I'm voting with my wallet.

Originally Posted by themax
That isn't what I meant by that comment. I mean that, the simplest feature on things are patented so much to the point where it doesn't make sense. A protective layer on your discs in patented? Really now. The immersion lawsuit I could understand, but protecting your disc surface? Oh please. A small startup company advertising their patent, yes, go for it, but a small startup company lying in wait for a company to "infringe" on their unused patent I don't agree with.

And this isn't for using a protective layer; it would appear to be for the silver based alloy. Now if the patent is on the formula for the alloy and some other company has used the formula, I think they'd be entitled to sue to protect their development. However this then goes to court and we see if Sony had its own way of discovering the alloy or if it infringed and stole the patent. Discussing who's right and who's wrong before the outcome of the court case and without the evidence shown in the case, is no more than media hype again. And on the other hand Sony has had the blu-ray branding flashed across the media for free, perfect advertising.

Originally Posted by mikeuk2004
Thats just business. Youd expect any company to want complete control over its products and maximise profit.

If I sold a product, I wouldnt want to loose control over it and for others to get rich off my product, and neither does anyone else.

I was really trying to demonstrate that Blu-ray discs are very much sony's product and not anyone elses and thus why they were the ones being sued, not trying to make a particularly negative comment about sony itself.

Haha, serves you right Sony. HD-DVD ***

I wish sony would STOP with their proprietary BS.

Originally Posted by alextwo
It has nothing to do with inflation. Comparing US dollar prices to US Dollar prices, we are properly ripped off even taking relevant taxes into account.

It has everything to do with inflation/cost of living and the fact we are in Europe, some ones got to cover the increase distribution costs due to high taxes on fuel etc. in Europe, places like the UK where property prices are out of the reach of your average joe means that salaries increase to compensate, the US is a completely different economy and difference between them and us have got to be paid for somewhere. Sony as well as game devs etc. have to cover the cost of localisation and support for different languages, consumer laws why would they not pass these on to the consumer like every other company does. It is a shame that we don't get treated as US when it comes to stuff like games as languages aren't an issue but then theres the adaption to our TV system to be considered and the additional support it entails (not everyone is high def yet)

So in the US your PS3 cost $600 + sales tax it comes out to about £330 its hardly half price or realistically that much cheaper all things considered, sure compared to the launch price its quite a difference but the price is always high right out the gate when it comes to technology, sure for you to go over and buy it it seems cheap due to teh value of teh pound versus the dollar but it just doesn't equate in the same manner.

The UK is a nation of whingers these days alway want something to winge about, there are much more important things in the world than how much your PS3 costs you, if it doesn't suit you don't buy it, if it cost too much then to summarize Crazy Ken, get a better job perhaps you'll be able to afford it ;) (thats tongue incheek there for those that don't spot it )

As to this lawsuit, real bad news for Sony, I hope this doesn't kill the Blu Ray scene as I am personally loving this Hi Def kit and will relish the day I can enjoy watching everything in HD on a 52" 1080 screen.

Originally Posted by themax
That isn't what I meant by that comment. I mean that, the simplest feature on things are patented so much to the point where it doesn't make sense. A protective layer on your discs in patented? Really now. The immersion lawsuit I could understand, but protecting your disc surface? Oh please. A small startup company advertising their patent, yes, go for it, but a small startup company lying in wait for a company to "infringe" on their unused patent I don't agree with.

I do agree with you as far as patents go (especially software patents, but that's another kettle of fish), but I'll think you'll find that in order to successfully patent something it has to be a fair bit more specific than just the idea of a protective layer. In this case it seems to be the use of specific silver alloys as a protective layer, and the fact that Sony used the idea while fully aware of the company's patent. And if they have a specific invention that Sony borrowed without asking then they deserve their millions. If their patent is vague or whatever then Sony's lawyers will weasel their way out of this case with no trouble at all, and leave the small random company with a very large random legal bill.

And for all you people in America that say that we European people are always crying about being riped off, i can only ask one thing, would you buy your ps3 if cost $806 and had lots of trouble running games from the ps and ps2, considering that you would want to play these games?
And if you and almost everyone you know had a month salary of about $600?
I think it would not sell that much there.

Far as I am aware PS3 has no trouble with PS1 games but i only kept a handful of goodones and even upscales them now, the PS2 support is also pretty damn good now too, so its being supported and updated, everyone of my PS2 collection now works on my PS3, GT4 has some graphical oddness going on in the upper corner but plays well otherwise.

who cares where you lot come from stop flameing each other

i my self prefer the BR disks due to there disk size 25/50gb later on, HD 15/30 (HD need to use tripple layer to get 51gb)
some one commented about that that as well (page 1-2)

sony will probly payup and nothing will happen to the sales Just an other Hole in sonys Pocket (that seems to be getting bigger all the time)

@sandys
as US and UK have been mixed in here
the US Ver has basicly an PS2 Hardware chip in it to support basicly All ps2 games
the UK/others ver is Software mode so not all games work some do but better support will come with newer patches maybe

Originally Posted by Bauul
Blu_Ray really isn't all that impressive: what it makes up for in size it lacks in read-write speed. As an example, the PS3 has to continually stream data from it's games onto the hard drive just to keep the load times low when extra data is required.

Twice the capacity is "really not that impressive"? And your demonstration about read-times is, em pathetic. I'd like to point you to Wikipedia:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HD_DVD#HD_DVD_.2F_Blu-ray_disc_comparison

Max raw-bit rate fro Blu-ray = 53.95Mbit, Max for HD-DVD = 36.55Mbit, this makes perfect sense because back when CD-ROMs were constantly getting faster and faster (until they reached 52x of today) it was discovered that there is a limit to how fast you can safely spin a chunk of plastic. However, if you pack the bits tighter, when you spin the disc at the same speed, more bits pass the laser and a higher read/write speed is possible.

Originally Posted by Bauul
Personally, I think HD-DVD will win simply because it's the simpler technology, cheaper to build and distribute, and there isn't so much control around it. Sony seem to be obsessed with controlling 100% every technology they ever come up with, they wanted to be more in control of DVDs, they invented their PSP video format that only the PSP could play, the next gen of DVDs they want all to themselves, I don't think this strategy is winning them many fans outside the industry to be honest

First I'd like to direct your attention to:
http://www.engadget.com/2005/09/19/blu-ray-vs-hd-dvd-state-of-the-s-union-s-division/

Sony/Phillips were developing a format at the same time Toshiba was developing their own format to enhance/replace CDs, instead of releasing two formats they chose to release DVD. Unfortunately, Sony apparently must have had a bad deal and thus decided to start developing a new format which became Blu-Ray, and here is the real shocker for your pro HD-DVD fantasy - Toshibia started development of HD-DVD for the same reason. But by all means, lets cry when Sony decides to seek rightfully earned profits 'cause Toshiba and MS (ya know, the same company with a monopoly on the PC industry) are just the best companies on the planet.

And honestly, don't even bring PSP video into this. PSP video never attempted to be a replacement for DVD, it just so happens that due to the small size of the PSP in order to allow customers to watch movies a new format would be required. Are you going to cry about Nintendo releasing multiple in-compatible cartridge designs?

L J

It will be nice if karma got the best of sony. lol

for backup purposes, BR is a nicer format, due to the bigger capacity (50gb per layer. that means you only need 10 layers worth for a 500gb drive (so with a 3 layer BR disc that's 4 discs))
I have to say - that's tempting to me

But i don't really care until after this format war is decided, i don't particularly feel like buying into the wrong tech and wasting significant amounts of money

I think as far as the 'format war' goes, you only need to walk into your local HMV or Virgin and check out their HD sections. Blu-Ray films are overwhelming HD-DVDs by something like 3:1.

I hope sony fail this format war. I hope they fail the console war. Im tired of their over-priced products especially when they pale in comparison in quality to others yet still charge the premium price for brand name alone.

There are many areas where Sony have there competition licked though it has to be said, ease of use being one thing, typically for the extra dosh, you get a product that anyone can pick up and use, whether its consoles, cameras, TVs etc. and that end of the day is why people pay the money, its a bit like apple vs Windows, you get more for you money with a windows machine but you'll end up with an easier to use product with an apple. People pay for what the like, me personally I go for the best I can get for the money so when buying a TV recently I ended up with a Samsung M87 series 1080p screen but watching the missus trying to use it brings tears to my eyes, crap UI, crap remote etc, she has asked me to chnage it for a Sony like her friends because its easy to use and gives you the pertinent information when watching TV, like whats on etc, at £300 extra I've told her to bugger off an just get used to it :p

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Betamax



Not quite the same, but sony seems to shoot it's own foot when it comes to media storage...

I don't hate sony, and love most of their products, but when it comes down to it, they're usually just a bit more expensive that it makes you look to other solutions.

Going Back to Car references, Sony is like having a nice car being able to have automatic transmission and not suffer any fuel loss or power loss. Where as other brands require stick. Easier to use and operate, but more costly.

Just Checking Bestbuy.com, it seems most of the BD movies are about

$29.99

HD-DVD

$24.99

DVD's

14.99


Now for Players:

Toshiba HD-DVD

$399.99

Sony Blu-Ray

$499.99

And a decent DVD Player is about

$69.99


That being said, it seems like in the long run, HD-DVD is set to drop in price faster.

However, in regards to this issue, If Sony is definitely liable, then they'll probably get toasted for a good sum of money and I can't see that helping prices. :(