bit-tech.net | Sony debuts Blu-Ray player #2

randosome 28th February 2007, 09:56

you can buy BD films now ?

Anyway - seriously, why would you get this and not a PS3 - same functionality plus the PS3 has gaming capability
IMO their crazy anyway, who wants a $600 BD player (which still cant decode the dolbytruehd codec)

Quote:

Undoubtedly, according to company reps the player is "already so in demand you can't find it anywhere." Maybe that's because it's not coming until summer, but let's not burden this with anything factual.

lmao that's quite some marketing spin there :p

mclean007 28th February 2007, 10:38

Still won't bite until I can get a region-free hybrid HD-DVD/Blu-Ray/upscaling DVD player outputting all three in 1080p (free from HDCP crap), with full support for all mandatory and optional lossless and lossy surround sound formats. When all that is available in a decent quality device costing under £300, I'm there. That said, by then I may very well have an HTPC, and will (hopefully) be able to just drop in a hybrid HD-DVD / Blu-Ray drive (or one of each, if necessary and if affordable) and do all of the above. Still has to be region-free, however.

mclean007 28th February 2007, 10:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by randosome
...why would you get this and not a PS3 - same functionality plus the PS3 has gaming capability

Perhaps because a standalone player will almost certainly offer better sound and picture quality, will be quieter and less power-hungry than a PS3, and will come as standard with a proper remote control, rather than having to use a game pad / buy a separate remote.

That's like asking why anyone would buy a £150 DVD player when they could just buy a PS2 or an XBox. If you don't need or want the games functionality, you're better off getting a device designed purely for movies.

That said, at this early stage, Blu-Ray players are absurdly overpriced, so a PS3 might just be the best value option you can get. When the tech gets cheaper and the Chinese knock-off manufaturers move in, the price/quality ratio of Blu-Ray players will improve by close to an order of magnitude, whereas the PS3 will likely not get vastly cheaper for quite a while.

Fly 28th February 2007, 11:10

Hybrid all the way baby, yeah...

mmorgue 28th February 2007, 11:53

^^^ yep, what you guys have just said. Not bothering until I can throw away my current region free upscaling DVD player.

r4tch3t 28th February 2007, 12:16

I will not buy a High def player until I can pick one up for under $100. In the meantime, I may get a PS3 (also once the price comes down)
$600 for the player, pfft, its just going to end up like my uncles DVD player, unused since it won't play practically any DVD as it was the first ever made and doesn't support any of the new AACS or whatever is on DVDs. It doesn't work properly anyway, and its huge!!

Flibblebot 28th February 2007, 13:02

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Originally Posted by Fly
Hybrid all the way baby, yeah...

The problem with LG's hybrid player (the snazzily named "BH100 Super Multi Blue Player") is that its HD DVD playback is cobbled. You can't play the discs own interactive menus, instead you have to rely on the player's own menu system.
Lame, and not the panacea that everyone thinks it is.

Even Warner's own "TotalHD" discs (which are now not due to apear until H2 07) are just flipper discs - which to me is just a throwback to the early days of DVD before dual layer discs were common.

mclean007 28th February 2007, 13:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by Flibblebot
The problem with LG's hybrid player (the snazzily named "BH100 Super Multi Blue Player") is that its HD DVD playback is cobbled. You can't play the discs own interactive menus, instead you have to rely on the player's own menu system.
Lame, and not the panacea that everyone thinks it is.

Yeah, I heard that. But it is the first hybrid player announced. Give it a few months, and there will be many more, and these early problems will be history.

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Even Warner's own "TotalHD" discs (which are now not due to apear until H2 07) are just flipper discs - which to me is just a throwback to the early days of DVD before dual layer discs were common.

True, though AFAIK you have the full movie on each side, in different formats, so you don't actually have to flip the disc part way through (I borrowed my mate's early print of 'Goodfellas' on DVD the other day. It's a double sided single layer job - really begrudged getting off the sofa to flip it over!!) The TotalHD discs, as I understand it, are more analogous to the early DVDs which had widescreen on one side and pan/scan on the other, before proper anamorphic presentation became commonplace. Who watches pan/scan anyway?! So you have content on both sides, and no picture on the disc (just identifying writing on the centre dead zone), but you only have to play one side to watch the whole movie.

mclean007 28th February 2007, 13:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by r4tch3t
I will not buy a High def player until I can pick one up for under $100.

Expect to wait a minimum of five years then. It's only relatively recently that super-cheap DVD players have become commonplace. Add to that the fact that the perceptible consumer benefits of the VHS->DVD leap (smaller physical format, no need to rewind, no moving parts on media, random access, extra features (e.g. multiple branching for different cuts), subs, soundtracks, never wears out with repeated plays, not sensitive to magnetism) are far more significant than the incremental picture and sound quality benefits of HD over DVD, which will only be of benefit to those who already have invested heavily in HD displays and surround sound. We're talking reasonably high spend consumers, who will not flinch at a few hundred for a new disc spinner. $100 is really bargain basement territory, and it will take a long time for HD to filter down to that level.

bloodcar 28th February 2007, 13:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by mclean007
Expect to wait a minimum of five years then. It's only relatively recently that super-cheap DVD players have become commonplace.

Um, I bought my first stand alone DVD player for $99 five years ago. It wasn't the best out there but it still had pretty damn good picture and sound quality and became region free and marcrovision disabled within minutes of being out of the box. We'll have decent priced HD players out sometime next year.

Djpuk 28th February 2007, 13:42

I think I am going to wait until I can get a reasonably priced Blue Ray drive and HDDVD drive into my media server, rip it and just serve it from there to my TV, if I buy one player over another I am only going to regret it and the Hybrid does not seem to be the killer device I thought it was from the earlier comments.

jjsyht 28th February 2007, 13:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by mclean007
Expect to wait a minimum of five years then.

A little bit better news if you want a bare drive for under $100. Current recorders are about £500. The first DVD-RW was about that price when they debuted in 1999-2000. In 2003, I got a DVD writer for well under £100.

mclean007 28th February 2007, 14:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by bloodcar
Um, I bought my first stand alone DVD player for $99 five years ago. It wasn't the best out there but it still had pretty damn good picture and sound quality and became region free and marcrovision disabled within minutes of being out of the box. We'll have decent priced HD players out sometime next year.

Five years ago is 2002. DVD came out in around 1997, so the format was five years old by then. Blu-Ray / HD-DVD are pretty new now, so I'd say five years is a reasonable estimate, especially when you factor in the fact that the 'convenience' benefits of DVD that drove the mass market demand and the enormous economies of scale that made low price devices economically viable, will not apply to the HD formats. As I said, unless someone has shelled out a fair amount on a reasonably high end LCD/plasma/projector and surround system (which may be becoming more common, but are still by no means mass market), they will see no benefit of HD over DVD.

Depending on your definition of 'decent priced', you may be right. I expect prices to fall considerably in the next 12-18 months, but nowhere near the $100 level. I will eat my hat if you can get a hybrid drive for under $100 by the end of 2008.

r4tch3t 28th February 2007, 14:32

Just been promted that it will be the actual player/burner that I will wait for, my PC is my "entertainment center" and will be building an HTPC, I have never owned a standalone DVD player, and I doubt I will own a standalone BD/HD DVD player.
Right now I am perfectly ahppy with 1.4-2.1GB rips of DVDs.

bloodcar 28th February 2007, 14:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by mclean007
Five years ago is 2002. DVD came out in around 1997, so the format was five years old by then. Blu-Ray / HD-DVD are pretty new now, so I'd say five years is a reasonable estimate, especially when you factor in the fact that the 'convenience' benefits of DVD that drove the mass market demand and the enormous economies of scale that made low price devices economically viable, will not apply to the HD formats. As I said, unless someone has shelled out a fair amount on a reasonably high end LCD/plasma/projector and surround system (which may be becoming more common, but are still by no means mass market), they will see no benefit of HD over DVD.

Depending on your definition of 'decent priced', you may be right. I expect prices to fall considerably in the next 12-18 months, but nowhere near the $100 level. I will eat my hat if you can get a hybrid drive for under $100 by the end of 2008.

Prices of consumer electronics have a tendency to fall much faster now then they did five to ten years ago. Look at just how fast dvd burners dropped in price compared to cd burners. The big price hitch in BLU-ray players right now is the hard-to-maintain-a-good-yeild-quantity led. Manufacturing processes are ramping up and so is the yeild quantity. Add to the fact that alot of components being used in both BLU-ray and HD-DVD players are already in use in other electronics and you can see that there will be a great decline in the price of the players. You're not going to see top brand players on the cheap for the next few years but I'm pretty damn sure you're going to see a $100 APEX player for around that by the end of 2008.

My starting point in my last post was that you said it wasn't until "relatively recently" whereas I really don't consider 5 years ago recently. I actually think I got my DVD player before then but I don't know the exact year. I know I was still in high school and I haven't been there for 6 years or so.

mclean007 28th February 2007, 15:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by bloodcar
You're not going to see top brand players on the cheap for the next few years but I'm pretty damn sure you're going to see a $100 APEX player for around that by the end of 2008.

Will they be full featured hybrid players with proper 1080p output and DVD upscaling? I very much doubt it. The licensing of Blu-ray and HD-DVD patents alone will probably eat up a lot of that, before you even factor in the cost of components. Maybe you'll get cut down single format players by then, but I doubt the quality will be up to much - probably better off with a similarly priced DVD player.

Quote:

My starting point in my last post was that you said it wasn't until "relatively recently" whereas I really don't consider 5 years ago recently. I actually think I got my DVD player before then but I don't know the exact year. I know I was still in high school and I haven't been there for 6 years or so.

Fair enough. I should have been more clear and, in fact, I wasn't aware it was quite so long since cheapo players hit (how time flies, eh?) Nevertheless, the format was still considerably more mature by then than Blu-ray / HD-DVD will be by end 2008.

Another factor that will scupper rapid mass market uptake is the confusion over formats. I think once hybrid players become available, it will be somewhat moot, but Joe Average who wants something he knows will work with all high def discs (as well as his existing DVDs) might put off his purchasing decision. If / when one of the two HD formats kills the other, mass market adoption will probably speed up.

I'd still say end 2008 is ambitious for mass market el Cheapo full featured hybrid consumer players.

bloodcar 28th February 2007, 15:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by mclean007
Will they be full featured hybrid players with proper 1080p output and DVD upscaling? I very much doubt it. The licensing of Blu-ray and HD-DVD patents alone will probably eat up a lot of that, before you even factor in the cost of components. Maybe you'll get cut down single format players by then, but I doubt the quality will be up to much - probably better off with a similarly priced DVD player.
Fair enough. I should have been more clear and, in fact, I wasn't aware it was quite so long since cheapo players hit (how time flies, eh?) Nevertheless, the format was still considerably more mature by then than Blu-ray / HD-DVD will be by end 2008.

Another factor that will scupper rapid mass market uptake is the confusion over formats. I think once hybrid players become available, it will be somewhat moot, but Joe Average who wants something he knows will work with all high def discs (as well as his existing DVDs) might put off his purchasing decision. If / when one of the two HD formats kills the other, mass market adoption will probably speed up.

I'd still say end 2008 is ambitious for mass market el Cheapo full featured hybrid consumer players.

I never said that we'd see cheap hybrids by then. I really don't know where that implication came from as I thought all of my statements were geared towards either/or and not both. :?

Unlike when DVDs first came out though, you're not seeing a major change in formats or components which will lead to the prices dropping quite abit faster then before. Factor in that digital distribution is really taking off now and you'll see an even faster decline in price points to try and hit the saturation point of the market place. Both formats may just completely bottom out when "disc streaming" hits mainstream (IE. an entire "dvds" contents are streamed including extra features, subtitles, alternate languages and audion options... it's here already just not very prominent yet) as I think that's one of the reasons that alot of people still hold onto their own copies. I know that if I could get special features and subtitles instead of having to use closed captioning, then my physical disc purchasing would decrease dramatically to dammn near none at all.

mclean007 28th February 2007, 16:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by bloodcar
I never said that we'd see cheap hybrids by then. I really don't know where that implication came from as I thought all of my statements were geared towards either/or and not both. :? Unlike when DVDs first came out though, you're not seeing a major change in formats or components which will lead to the prices dropping quite abit faster then before. Factor in that digital distribution is really taking off now and you'll see an even faster decline in price points to try and hit the saturation point of the market place.

Ah, maybe we're somewhat at crossed purposes. I was still on the hybrid track based on the preceding posts in this thread. Nevertheless, I'll still be surprised if single format players at under $100 are here by end 2008.

I take your points, but there just isn't the improvement over DVD required to make everyone rush out and buy this, regardless of the price point. DVD's success hinged on its appeal to everyone, from techie early adopter twenty-somethings to grandma and grandpa, from school mums to busy professionals. Only a small amount of that was down to picture and sound superiority over VHS (though many consumers might THINK that was the main driver) - it was ease of use, pure and simple. People were sold on the handy features, the fact they don't have to rewind before taking it back to Blockbuster etc. HD simply doesn't offer enough in terms of lifestyle benefit over DVD to drive mass adoption on the unprecedented scale of DVD, especially when you look at the still relatively low penetration of HD ready TV sets.

bloodcar 28th February 2007, 16:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by mclean007
Ah, maybe we're somewhat at crossed purposes. I was still on the hybrid track based on the preceding posts in this thread. Nevertheless, I'll still be surprised if single format players at under $100 are here by end 2008.

I take your points, but there just isn't the improvement over DVD required to make everyone rush out and buy this, regardless of the price point. DVD's success hinged on its appeal to everyone, from techie early adopter twenty-somethings to grandma and grandpa, from school mums to busy professionals. Only a small amount of that was down to picture and sound superiority over VHS (though many consumers might THINK that was the main driver) - it was ease of use, pure and simple. People were sold on the handy features, the fact they don't have to rewind before taking it back to Blockbuster etc. HD simply doesn't offer enough in terms of lifestyle benefit over DVD to drive mass adoption on the unprecedented scale of DVD, especially when you look at the still relatively low penetration of HD ready TV sets.

You'd be surprised at the penetration levels of HDTVs and HD Ready TVs (I seriously hate HD Ready sets with a passion). With the massive drops in prices and 1080p sets already at the $1500 for some 42" and larger sets, the market is really starting to pick up on them. With this of course, has been an influx in purchases of HD broadcasting systems and upscaling DVD players. I think the big player in HD-DVD and BLU-ray purchasing is the amount of movies available for it. Sales will really start to roll when there's actually a fairly good amount of movies available for each format (I'm talking in the high hundreds/early thousands). Back when DVD first appeared on the market, I know of a bunch of people that put off buying into it not because of the price point but because of the small selection of movies that were offered. More and more movies now, though, are being offered in both of the HD formats so we'll see the sales starting to increase at a faster rate then previously.

Back to the HDTV thing. The biggest complaint that I've fielded so far when it comes to purchases of HDTV sets is the relatively small amount of HD content available. What the general consumer doesn't realize is that buying a HDTV will not make your standard or plain digital cable look any better. Hell, most of the time it actually looks worse then if it was on a SDTV if you don't have decent equipment (the local lable here looks like ass unless you have a half decent upscaler in your home theater [most people who buy a 1080p set should buy a decent upscaler because at a native 1080p display, 1080i signals {the most common 1080 signal} will actually end up being a 540p signal....blah]). God, that was too many brackets. The local cable boxes are also pretty crappy and have a tendency to reset their damn settings so I end up going out to the same houses at least once a month to reset a couple of setting on the cable box so that the picture doesn't end up squashed or stretched but displayed how it should.

mclean007 28th February 2007, 16:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by bloodcar
You'd be surprised at the penetration levels of HDTVs and HD Ready TVs (I seriously hate HD Ready sets with a passion). With the massive drops in prices and 1080p sets already at the $1500 for some 42" and larger sets, the market is really starting to pick up on them. With this of course, has been an influx in purchases of HD broadcasting systems and upscaling DVD players. I think the big player in HD-DVD and BLU-ray purchasing is the amount of movies available for it. Sales will really start to roll when there's actually a fairly good amount of movies available for each format (I'm talking in the high hundreds/early thousands). Back when DVD first appeared on the market, I know of a bunch of people that put off buying into it not because of the price point but because of the small selection of movies that were offered. More and more movies now, though, are being offered in both of the HD formats so we'll see the sales starting to increase at a faster rate then previously.

Back to the HDTV thing. The biggest complaint that I've fielded so far when it comes to purchases of HDTV sets is the relatively small amount of HD content available. What the general consumer doesn't realize is that buying a HDTV will not make your standard or plain digital cable look any better. Hell, most of the time it actually looks worse then if it was on a SDTV if you don't have decent equipment (the local lable here looks like ass unless you have a half decent upscaler in your home theater [most people who buy a 1080p set should buy a decent upscaler because at a native 1080p display, 1080i signals {the most common 1080 signal} will actually end up being a 540p signal....blah]). God, that was too many brackets. The local cable boxes are also pretty crappy and have a tendency to reset their damn settings so I end up going out to the same houses at least once a month to reset a couple of setting on the cable box so that the picture doesn't end up squashed or stretched but displayed how it should.

Bear in mind, however, that the US is massively ahead of the curve when it comes to HDTV adoption. HD broadcasting in the UK has only been on the go for about 8 months, and is only available as a fairly high priced premium service from Sky (satellite) and cable companies. There is no free to air HDTV to speak of as yet. I guess partly because of this, HDTV uptake has been sloooow. Very few people have HD sets as yet, and of those that do, it's likely only incidental (i.e. they wanted a nice looking flat screen LCD / plasma, and it happened to be HD Ready. They don't actually use the HD capability, and may not even know it is there!)

I think 'HD ready' has a different meaning in the US, but in the EU it's quite stringent - a TV has to support 720p and 1080i inputs over component and HDMI/DVI with HDCP, and must have a physical display capability of at least 720 horizontal lines (i.e. 720p). In the US, it seems to mean only that the device is capable of accepting 720p/1080i input, but needn't be able to actually display it as HD, needn't support HDCP (only has to support either component or HDMI/DVI) - am I right? Anyway, I meant the EU version of the word.

I agree prices will definitely drop like a stone over the next 12-18 months, but I won't be persuaded that $100 players will hit in that time scale, hybrid or otherwise. Maybe towards the very end of 2008, in the pre-Christmas sales drive, you MIGHT be able to pick up a low-end, cut featured single format drive, but I'm sceptical.

bloodcar 28th February 2007, 16:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by mclean007
Bear in mind, however, that the US is massively ahead of the curve when it comes to HDTV adoption. HD broadcasting in the UK has only been on the go for about 8 months, and is only available as a fairly high priced premium service from Sky (satellite) and cable companies. There is no free to air HDTV to speak of as yet. I guess partly because of this, HDTV uptake has been sloooow. Very few people have HD sets as yet, and of those that do, it's likely only incidental (i.e. they wanted a nice looking flat screen LCD / plasma, and it happened to be HD Ready. They don't actually use the HD capability, and may not even know it is there!)

I think 'HD ready' has a different meaning in the US, but in the EU it's quite stringent - a TV has to support 720p and 1080i inputs over component and HDMI/DVI with HDCP, and must have a physical display capability of at least 720 horizontal lines (i.e. 720p). In the US, it seems to mean only that the device is capable of accepting 720p/1080i input, but needn't be able to actually display it as HD, needn't support HDCP (only has to support either component or HDMI/DVI) - am I right? Anyway, I meant the EU version of the word.

I agree prices will definitely drop like a stone over the next 12-18 months, but I won't be persuaded that $100 players will hit in that time scale, hybrid or otherwise. Maybe towards the very end of 2008, in the pre-Christmas sales drive, you MIGHT be able to pick up a low-end, cut featured single format drive, but I'm sceptical.

HD ready in the US is basically, it has the ability to display HD content, but not straight of of the box. You'll have to buy a set top box in order to get HD to be displayed. I might dredge up some information as to the exact specifics, but basiclaly, it's a ripoff if you're buying it for HD content. I've stayed away from them and have never recommended a single HD ready set. A good HDTV will do any of the converting it needs without a seperate scaling device. That being said, alot of time you actually do need that scaler as in cases like I mentioned before.

That being said, like I said before, you'll likely see a single format HD player at $100 or maybe slightly more by the end of 2008. That's two years of adoption rates plus ample time for the generic manufacturers to start pumping out their products. APEX (I mentioned them earlier) seems to have the capability to sell low priced players way ahead of every one else. They're not the best, but they're actually pretty decent and especially for the prices you tend to pay for them. I'll also make a call on this one and say that when American TV shows begin shipping in HD formats, the UK will see a larger increase in HD adoption rates. :p

zhangmaster12 28th February 2007, 21:07

i like sony, but i gotta say, ps3 sucks(price to high) and this sucks more

Bladestorm 28th February 2007, 23:54

One of the other articles I've seen on this player coming seemed to suggest it would have hardware upscaling as well as a few other features that the PS3 doesn't have for BD playback, were they just getting ahead of themselves then ?

crazydeep74 1st March 2007, 00:52

I'm not going to buy one, Until it offers DVD/BlueRay/CD/HDD/USB/DSS/VHS/BETA/8Track/LP Record/DDR Ram/4 AMD Opteron Dual Core...AND cost under $121.85 but no less than $121.83.

Brooxy 1st March 2007, 01:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by crazydeep74
I'm not going to buy one, Until it offers DVD/BlueRay/CD/HDD/USB/DSS/VHS/BETA/8Track/LP Record/DDR Ram/4 AMD Opteron Dual Core...AND cost under $121.85 but no less than $121.83.

That's nice...I wouldn't mind having laserdisc in there aswell...even more functions. :(

In other news, what happened to the days when sony were a good brand to buy from? They just seem to be going down even further than the last day, and at quite an impressive rate..

David_Fitzy 1st March 2007, 11:29

[QUOTE=mclean007]Still won't bite until I can get a region-free hybrid HD-DVD/Blu-Ray/upscaling DVD player outputting all three in 1080p (free from HDCP crap), with full support for all mandatory and optional lossless and lossy surround sound formats./QUOTE]Amen to that

I've just read the brighside article (linked from the dolby purchase news item) and I wanna wait to buy my HD screen when their technology is available hopefully the cost of 1080p components will drop enough that the price balances the brightside stuff.

Sony debuts Blu-Ray player #2

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