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Apple's Cook heaps scorn on Microsoft's Metro UI

Apple's Cook heaps scorn on Microsoft's Metro UI

Apple chief executive Tim Cook has compared Microsoft's Metro UI plans to merging a toaster and a refrigerator.

Apple chief executive Tim Cook has used the occasion of the company's earnings call to throw scorn on Microsoft's plans for Windows 8, likening them to combining a toaster and a fridge.

During a question-and-answer session following the earnings call, Cook - who took over the reins from founder Steve Jobs - was asked if Apple had any plans to merge its tablet and laptop efforts, as with Microsoft's upcoming Windows 8. 'You can converge a toaster and a refrigerator,' Cook replied, 'but those aren't going to be pleasing to the user.'

Claiming that any convergence between tablets and laptops would result in a dilution of both, Cook further explained that 'we are not going to that part, but others might from a defensive point of view.'

Cook's comment is clearly designed to attack Microsoft's Windows 8 before it even hits shops. With Intel planning touch-screen Ultrabooks running the operating system, and Microsoft's Windows Phone-inspired Metro UI proving a capable touch interface - if woeful for use with a keyboard and mouse - it's not hard to see why.

Cook, however, appears to be forgetting something: when the iPhone was first announced under Jobs' leadership, Apple made a big deal of claiming that the new iOS operating system was, at heart, the same as its OS X desktop - making Apple the first company to, borrowing Cook's phraseology, create a refrigetoaster.

Despite Cook's clear defensiveness in response to the question, and his apparent ignorance of Jobs-led iOS marketing strategies, Apple remains the company to beat for premium-priced portable products: the new high-resolution iPad is selling well, while Cook has reiterated his company's impending anti-Ultrabook innovation through its MacBook Air line.

That's a second fight Apple's picking: Intel is rumoured to be betting heavily on its Ultrabook project, using technology it originally licensed to Apple for the original MacBook Air. With Cook's convergence comments applying equally to both Windows 8 and Intel's touch-enabled Ultrabooks - due for launch at the same time as Microsoft's latest operating system - Cook is clearly not out to win friends.

78 Comments

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steveo_mcg 25th April 2012, 13:01 Quote
Cue apple haters in 3...2...1

In defence of this Cook chap, IOS maybe be at heart Tiger or Snowleopard or what ever OS X is called this week but when you sit at a macbook you get a desktop OS when you use your iPad you get a touchscreen environment. They may have made a refrigetoaster but the toasting device is superficially separate from the fridge. MS seems to be trying to fit the heating element of the toaster into the vegetable drawer to push the image to extremes.
Tangster 25th April 2012, 13:08 Quote
Does anyone else think that picture of Cook makes him look like this:
http://www.aeropause.com/wordpress/archives/images/2008/07/wallace-580x580.png

Also, Metro UI=good on tablets and phones, bad on desktops and laptops.
bigc90210 25th April 2012, 13:10 Quote
I want a refridgetoaster for my bedroom!
Nexxo 25th April 2012, 13:18 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by steveo_mcg
Cue apple haters in 3...2...1

In defence of this Cook chap, IOS maybe be at heart Tiger or Snowleopard or what ever OS X is called this week but when you sit at a macbook you get a desktop OS when you use your iPad you get a touchscreen environment. They may have made a refrigetoaster but the toasting device is superficially separate from the fridge. MS seems to be trying to fit the heating element of the toaster into the vegetable drawer to push the image to extremes.

I'm certainly not an Apple hater, but I do wonder if Cook protests too much. Metro is a genuinely innovative GUI and superb for mobile touch devices. It makes iOS look dated. I agree that Microsoft has tried to converge Windows Mobile with Windows desktop too early; better to follow Apple's approach and develop two seperate product lines and carry over to the other some features that have been proven by experience to work on one. But I would not sound so cocky, unless iOS 6 is going to be an absolutely spectacular innovation, like Windows Mobile 7 was compared to Windows Mobile 6.
Dewi 25th April 2012, 13:25 Quote
If I could be bothered to sacrifice my lunch break looking for the reference, then I'd suspect that the Steve Jobs quote was about the fact that iOS is a modified version of Mac OSX; rather then being about a plan for a grand unified Operating System.

I can't help but be sympathetic though to Cook's comments. The Metro desktop is designed for a touch screen tablet, and from what I understand the 'classic' desktop in Windows 8 isn't anywhere near as good as it is on Windows 7: hardly my idea of a universal OS. Also, I question the practicality of laptops where the primary means of manipulating the OS is though the touch screen. I use a tablet as my main web browser and media player, and a large part of the user experence is the way I hold the tablet and the gestures I use. I can't think of a way of handling a laptop that would allow me to swipe, and scrunch, and tap in anywhere near as fluid a way as I can on a tablet, simply because the tablet lies flat and you look down on it; whilst the laptop screen you look across from.
Bede 25th April 2012, 13:25 Quote
Metro makes everything look dated. I have a Lumia 800 and WP7 makes Android and even iOS look amateur. I don't like the idea of Metro for the desktop, but it is an incredibly innovative design - if they hadn't forced it onto desktops I think Metro would have made the perfect phone environment, and a serious competition to the iOS and Android. As it is, it will be tarnished by association with the desktop fudge that is W8. Few will want to buy a phone using apparently the same software as Microsoft's latest unpopularity.
faugusztin 25th April 2012, 13:31 Quote
So, when i click this Launchpad icon, it absolutely doesn't bring up iOS-like UI, right ?

IB8WLpBaPKo
lysaer 25th April 2012, 13:44 Quote
I quite like the metro ui on desktop to be honest, once you get used to it is pretty flash

Sent from my Transformer TF101 using Tapatalk 2
thogil 25th April 2012, 14:06 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dewi
...and from what I understand the 'classic' desktop in Windows 8 isn't anywhere near as good as it is on Windows 7

Your understanding would be wrong then. It has a few minor improvements.
Dewi 25th April 2012, 14:30 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by thogil
Your understanding would be wrong then. It has a few minor improvements.

I'd certainly agree that a lot of the issues raised on the web come down to personal preference. Things like the move to the ribbon interface in windows are a welcome development. But the legacy desktop still attempts to combine the metro elements designed for tablet computers with a working environment intended for PC's using mice and keyboards.

An example would be the start menu, which has a redesigned all programmes (all apps???) submenu. This involves showing an array of apps across the screen. It's an interesting interface, but it's also shoehorning a tablet view onto a desktop screen. I've personally chossen a large monitor for my computer because I want to be able to fit more information onto my screen; not to release Microsoft to produce an interface that's larger and prettier but only ends up displaying the amount of information I could get on a 17 inch screen five years ago.

Windows 8 preview (to me anyway) ends up giving me the impression that Microsoft expect to abandon the traditional desktop interface when Windows 9 comes along. It's a bit like when you tried to set up the old style desktop in Windows Vista. It was there, and clearly had been put there to give users a choice. But the effort wasn't put in, because Microsoft wanted you to move over to the aero basic interface.
Quote:
Originally Posted by faugusztin
So, when i click this Launchpad icon, it absolutely doesn't bring up iOS-like UI, right ?

IB8WLpBaPKo

I think the point is that it's a different OS platform. There is a difference between making two OS's look similar and getting Mac OSX Lion to run on an iPad
asmo 25th April 2012, 14:38 Quote
I can't really comment on windows 8/metro or the new OSX. I think that things are moving towards a convergence between the desktop environment and the phone environment, its kind of inevitable.

I can only comment on a similar thing that has already happened with linux. Ubuntu already did what microsoft have done. Their users weren't happy making linuxmint more popular. In fact ubuntus move to unity and Gnome 3s moving in the same direction forced the creation of MATE and Cinnamon. Personally I like XFCE/LXDE so no problems for me.

Thing is though Microsoft have moved to where apple will be in the future. Maybe Mr Cook is a little annoyed at being pre-empted. I wont be moving to Win8 though.

Both seem to be playing catch up with GNU/Linux though:D
rogerrabbits 25th April 2012, 14:46 Quote
Hrrm how the hell is making an OS work with both mice and touch screens mixing the unmixable? If you are going to take shots at Microsoft, at least pick your battles... This one just made the Apple guy sound stupid and also makes me wonder about their future if the visionary Jobs' replacement is someone who can't even see something so simple like this.
Kovoet 25th April 2012, 14:49 Quote
This is a case of "get over it apple" .

sent from HTC Sensation
Spreadie 25th April 2012, 14:50 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by steveo_mcg
Cue apple haters in 3...2...1

Pfft, Apple. Rip-off, PoS, snobby, elitist tossers!

I won't have anything to do with them.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

;)
rogerrabbits 25th April 2012, 14:53 Quote
Haha ^
Brooxy 25th April 2012, 14:58 Quote
As much as I'm loving metro (on a laptop, not tablet) after about 6 hours of using it, I think it's going to cause Microsoft some issues when it gets released to the people that don't like change.

Once setup correctly, it seems makes everything a lot faster getting to the applications you want. Between now and release I reckon that they'll make more improvements to it as well.

As for Apple, if there ever was an ideal time for them to release OS X as a standalone OS for PCs and price the hell out of it, this would be it IMHO - as people will have to change UI at some point, they could use it to they're advantage saying that if you're changing, you may as well change to something that is designed for all your iProducts...

Note I'm not a fan of OSX - merely stating that this would be an ideal time for Apple to gain marketshare by piggy-backing off the inevitable haters of Win8
Tangster 25th April 2012, 15:06 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by Brooxy
As much as I'm loving metro (on a laptop, not tablet) after about 6 hours of using it, I think it's going to cause Microsoft some issues when it gets released to the people that don't like change.

Once setup correctly, it makes everything a lot faster, when you want to the apps you want.

As for Apple, if there ever was an ideal time for them to release OS X as a standalone OS for PCs and price the hell out of it, this would be it IMHO - as people will have to change UI at some point, they could use it to they're advantage saying that if you're changing, you may as well change to something that is designed for all your iProducts...

Note I'm not a fan of OSX - merely stating that this would be an ideal time for Apple to gain marketshare by piggy-backing off the inevitable haters of Win8

Apple won't do that. They'd have to actually develop more than 5 drivers.
Nanu 25th April 2012, 15:13 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tangster
Quote:
Originally Posted by Brooxy
As much as I'm loving metro (on a laptop, not tablet) after about 6 hours of using it, I think it's going to cause Microsoft some issues when it gets released to the people that don't like change.

Once setup correctly, it makes everything a lot faster, when you want to the apps you want.

As for Apple, if there ever was an ideal time for them to release OS X as a standalone OS for PCs and price the hell out of it, this would be it IMHO - as people will have to change UI at some point, they could use it to they're advantage saying that if you're changing, you may as well change to something that is designed for all your iProducts...

Note I'm not a fan of OSX - merely stating that this would be an ideal time for Apple to gain marketshare by piggy-backing off the inevitable haters of Win8

Apple won't do that. They'd have to actually develop more than 5 drivers.

Lol.
Paradigm Shifter 25th April 2012, 15:24 Quote
And now the wait begins to see when Apple release a unified tablet/laptop/desktop OS, and associated patents so they can sue everyone else into oblivion...
Bauul 25th April 2012, 15:28 Quote
I rather like the idea of a touch-enabled laptop. Pointless if you have a mouse, but if you're stuck with a touchpad or one of those nipple-things, being able to just tap on what you want makes a lot of sense.

The silly thing for MS though is if only they added one tiny little additional feature to Win 8 that allowed you to swap the Metro interface for the Win 7 Start menu, 99% of the criticisms of Win 8 would disappear in an instant.
Baz 25th April 2012, 15:34 Quote
And so he should; Metro is rubbish.
AmEv 25th April 2012, 15:40 Quote
You guys are correct.

Go into the OSX terminal and run the "uname" command.
Also, put in it in your mobile iDevice.

You'll get Darwin (UNIX) as the uname.
TheKrumpet 25th April 2012, 15:45 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bit-Tech
Cook, however, appears to be forgetting something: when the iPhone was first announced under Jobs' leadership, Apple made a big deal of claiming that the new iOS operating system was, at heart, the same as its OS X desktop - making Apple the first company to, borrowing Cook's phraseology, create a refrigetoaster.

You're ever so slightly confusing things here. The core kernel of iOS is the same as OS X - however, the interface on top is radically different. The problem he's pointing out with Win8 is that what works well for a tablet doesn't work well for laptops from an interface point of view.
sotu1 25th April 2012, 15:46 Quote
omg refridetoaster!
supermonkey 25th April 2012, 16:30 Quote
Funny enough, when I was in college we had something called a "microfridge." It was a small refrigerator with a microwave oven integrated on top. It was basically two devices packaged in one appliance. It was brilliant because I effectively had two appliances powered by a single plug, and the whole thing worked perfectly.

There may be a point there.
Silver51 25th April 2012, 17:28 Quote
I have to agree with him, unfortunately. Windows ME,tro does look like it'll be a PITA for desktops; so much so that I have absolutely no plans to move to it.

Now if you'll excuse me, I have an overwhelming urge to buy a turtleneck, hang out in Starbucks and write sad emo poetry about RISC on an overpriced tablet.
Brooxy 25th April 2012, 17:34 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by Silver51
I have to agree with him, unfortunately. Windows ME,tro does look like it'll be a PITA for desktops; so much so that I have absolutely no plans to move to it.

I almost feel compelled to ask - are you making this judgement through reading up on Metro, or have you actually tried it? I was apprehensive until trying it and it really isn't that bad once you get used to it.

The comparison to Windows ME did make me chuckle - although I'm pretty sure the consumer preview is more reliable than Windows ME ever was. For sh**s and giggles I might load ME onto a virtual machine with the same config later and see what happens...

I'm pretty sure there were plenty of people that would have said the same thing when Windows 95 was released and yet Windows 95 has provided the basis for Windows for the last 7 years.
faugusztin 25th April 2012, 17:37 Quote
@Brooxy: actually, Windows 8 is nearly unusable through Remote Desktop. The corner gestures ? Sure, try to do those pixel perfect gestures when you are not restricted by the display. They need to work on mouse interface. A lot.
Brooxy 25th April 2012, 17:46 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by faugusztin
@Brooxy: actually, Windows 8 is nearly unusable through Remote Desktop. The corner gestures ? Sure, try to do those pixel perfect gestures when you are not restricted by the display. They need to work on mouse interface. A lot.

Fair play, I've not tried using it via an RDC connection - I've been using VMware player and fullscreening the machine instead. I'll give RDC a go tonight - hopefully the issues will be resolved by the full release.

As far as standard use goes though, I've not had any major issues, hence the having no problems with Metro thus far. I guess different types of use will show different problems
faugusztin 25th April 2012, 17:49 Quote
Well, try to use it in VMware while not having it on fullscreen. The experience will be similar.
Gradius 25th April 2012, 17:56 Quote
Arghpple always sucked, nothing new here, moving on.
Brooxy 25th April 2012, 18:02 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gradius
Arghpple always sucked, nothing new here, moving on.

In terms of OS, all of them suck in at least one respect, whether that be Windows, OSX, OS/2 or Linux.

As for a company sucking, Apple are returning a healthy profit last time I checked. Obviously they don't suck that much......
stonedsurd 25th April 2012, 18:03 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by supermonkey
Funny enough, when I was in college we had something called a "microfridge." It was a small refrigerator with a microwave oven integrated on top. It was basically two devices packaged in one appliance. It was brilliant because I effectively had two appliances powered by a single plug, and the whole thing worked perfectly.

There may be a point there.

Dude, that wasn't just you! We had them too, as recently as 2010 :D

260 hot pockets in the fridge, microwave up top. Wasn't healthy, but boy was it perfect for those 24-36 hour weekend gaming sessions. Although you'd be lucky if you could poop right a week later.
Aracos 25th April 2012, 18:54 Quote
I'm sick of this now, they're just trying to climb on the hate Windows 8 bandwagon. Metro isn't anywhere near as bad as people are making out and with a couple of little tweaks it will be perfect. I'm sick of hearing so many complaints because it is "different" which actually it isn't, not really. Nowhere near a big a jump as people are making out.
S1W1 25th April 2012, 19:20 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by bigc90210
I want a refridgetoaster for my bedroom!
I couldn't agree more- I think Cooky just had a seriously innovative idea. It saves space, minimises clutter and reduces the amount you (or the wife ;)) have to trek around the kitchen.
When historians look back upon the 21st century they will no doubt praise this day as the genesis of the refridgetoaster, the pinnacle of human invention :D
misterd77 25th April 2012, 19:23 Quote
windows 8 is just a new portal for microsoft to sell more "apps", at least, to the stupid people, least, thats what they hope for....
TheDarkSide 25th April 2012, 19:39 Quote
i am an ios user, but i can see how Windows phone have a slicker interface. ios, with its bland static icons sitting there is starting to look very dated indeed.
Every new version of windows for the desktop brings in the hate from people that got too cosy with their current ways. i'll reserve judgement until i try the released version.
Brooxy 25th April 2012, 21:03 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by faugusztin
Well, try to use it in VMware while not having it on fullscreen. The experience will be similar.

Tried it now. I can see what you mean - it definitely makes things a bit more tricky albeit not impossible. All that needs to be done is for MS to make the trigger area a little bigger.
impar 25th April 2012, 21:10 Quote
Greetings!
Quote:
Originally Posted by Baz
And so he should; Metro is rubbish.
... for KB+M PCs.

I got tired of using Windows 8 on a desktop PC. Too much hassle to do stuff. It doesnt help that I spend my work time with XP or 7 machines.

I dont understand this kind of statements:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Brooxy
Once setup correctly, it seems makes everything a lot faster getting to the applications you want.
Are you sure you have 7 properly setup?
XXAOSICXX 25th April 2012, 21:10 Quote
I'll take Apple, and Cook, a bit more seriously when their "most advanced operating system in the world" doesn't produce messages like this:

http://dl.dropbox.com/u/50787/Apple/cannot_install.jpg

...for my IT department. Fail.
Brooxy 25th April 2012, 21:25 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by impar
Are you sure you have 7 properly setup?

Yup I think so - I just think it's a better way of organising the main programs you need for easy quick access.

One annoyance is the messenger app is schizophrenic at best for me. It signs me in and out more than a hooker's underwear goes up and down. But then that's completely going off topic...
Dewi 25th April 2012, 21:36 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by XXAOSICXX
I'll take Apple, and Cook, a bit more seriously when their "most advanced operating system in the world" doesn't produce messages like this:

http://dl.dropbox.com/u/50787/Apple/cannot_install.jpg

...for my IT department. Fail.

The OSX most advanced OS in the world line got tiresome years ago, especially given the core design is now what 12 years old.

And yet the more I think about it, the more I come to te conclusion that my next work computer is going to be a Mac (probably a MacBook Air). I adore taking my PC to pieces, upgrading it so it will run the latest Sims (simulations, not the big brotheresque EA franchise) and generally fixing the latest problem that arises. But if that's my attitude, then I'm better off with a second work computer that just, well umm works. And for that kind of no stress environment; at the moment the people at Apple make a compelling product.

And I think that is where a lot of the concerns with Windows 8 are coming from. It doesn't seem like an OS that is built for soeone who just wants to write a letter, or recieved the odd email from a relative. It seems like an OS that has every social media portal /fashion / fad bolted on and intergrated into it by default. And that means there is a lot of code that could be flawed, a lot of potential driver issues, potential security flaws other failure points. And that's not what the average user wants from their PC. It's no coincidence that the best OS's MS have ever built have been Windows 98 SE, Windows XP and Windows 7; in each case evolutionary jumps where they (arguably) stripped out a lot of the bloat they'd introduced in previous versions.

MS are best when they build simple platforms that third parties can use to launch their innovative products. And to their credit they have built the best platform available to the IT world for that purpose. They are at their worst when they try and do the innovative stuff themselves, and Windows 8 looks like its going to be a prime example of that.
XXAOSICXX 25th April 2012, 21:44 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dewi
The OSX most advanced OS in the world line got tiresome years ago

Apparently not:

http://www.apple.com/macosx/
azrael- 25th April 2012, 21:50 Quote
I'm completely agreeing with people saying that the Metro UX has no place on the desktop. Been fiddling around with both the Developer Preview and the Consumer Preview and even though the latter shows significant improvements it's still basically unusable on a desktop.

Microsoft hasn't even tried to emulate the way you use the touch interface with the mouse. My very first thought on this was "why doesn't click'n'drag work?" Apparently I'm not the only one, as I've read much the same in magazines, as well as having heard it "elsewhere". There was even a test somewhere, where people tried the touch interface on a touch-enabled screen and then failing utterly when put in front of a traditional desktop with a keyboard and mouse. Microsoft is doing usability studies? But of course they are...
Quote:
Originally Posted by Brooxy
Tried it now. I can see what you mean - it definitely makes things a bit more tricky albeit not impossible. All that needs to be done is for MS to make the trigger area a little bigger.
Whenever I think of the hot spots in Win8 I immediately think of how they behave in full screen programs (i.e. games). Will the charms etc. pop up when you move your mouse cursor into one of the corners? If so, it's the Windows key debacle all over again... :p
Brooxy 25th April 2012, 21:59 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by azrael-
Whenever I think of the hot spots in Win8 I immediately think of how they behave in full screen programs (i.e. games). Will the charms etc. pop up when you move your mouse cursor into one of the corners? If so, it's the Windows key debacle all over again... :p

That's actually a brilliant point, I never thought about that. Either a lockout when a full screen app is running or a toggle key to switch the hotspots on and off would be a good bet.

Will have a play with a full screen program and see what happens tomorrow - running a VM, my choices of what to use are a bit limited, but I'll find something. Hopefully Starcraft 1 w/Brood War
azrael- 25th April 2012, 22:10 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by Brooxy
That's actually a brilliant point, I never thought about that. Either a lockout when a full screen app is running or a toggle key to switch the hotspots on and off would be a good bet.

Will have a play with a full screen program and see what happens tomorrow - running a VM, my choices of what to use are a bit limited, but I'll find something. Hopefully Starcraft 1 w/Brood War
I'm running Win8 in a VM as well, which is why I haven't tried playing games with it either. I expect the people at Microsoft thought of that potential problem and made sure it won't happen, but you never know.
HiMyNameIsWill 25th April 2012, 22:39 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by steveo_mcg
Cue apple haters in 3...2...1

In defence of this Cook chap, IOS maybe be at heart Tiger or Snowleopard or what ever OS X is called this week but when you sit at a macbook you get a desktop OS when you use your iPad you get a touchscreen environment. They may have made a refrigetoaster but the toasting device is superficially separate from the fridge. MS seems to be trying to fit the heating element of the toaster into the vegetable drawer to push the image to extremes.

This is a PC enthusiasts forums. Enjoy your Crapbook.

http://www.seattlerex.com/seattle-rex-vs-apple-the-verdict-is-in/
XXAOSICXX 25th April 2012, 23:11 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dewi
the more I think about it, the more I come to te conclusion that my next work computer is going to be a Mac (probably a MacBook Air).

I don't know what kind of work you do, but the very idea of using a MacBook Air in a work environment boggles the mind.

An 1.8GHz i7 with a 256GB drive and a 13" screen (the biggest they do) is £1500...and that's with a max resolution of 1440x900, Intel HD 3000 graphics, no ethernet port. Sweet! Not.
Gareth Halfacree 25th April 2012, 23:21 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by XXAOSICXX
I don't know what kind of work you do, but the very idea of using a MacBook Air in a work environment boggles the mind.
Depends on the job. As a journalist, I already use an HP Pavilion dm4 fairly-portable laptop, which doesn't have the world's fastest processor (a 2.4GHz Sandy Bridge chip, I think.) My next upgrade will either be a MacBook Air or an Ultrabook, for two reasons: portability and battery life.

Most of the time, my laptop is used in the field for transcription, recording, writing and copy filing. The heaviest thing it'll be asked to do is edit a few raw files from my camera. I don't *need* a massive screen, eight-core 17GHz processor and a zillion terabytes of storage for that.

Yes, I could buy a budget laptop instead - heck, my HP was about £700 when I got it. But the budget laptop would be bulkier, harder to carry, and have inferior battery life - even if it might have more storage or a marginally faster processor. If I have some heavy lifting to do, I've got my desktop. Hell, I can SSH tunnel to my home network from anywhere in the world and use the X server on my laptop to run tasks on my desktop's hardware if I feel the need.

Don't fall into the trap of assuming everyone is like you. If your work requires a massive amount of RAM, storage, or processing power, that's one thing; but just because an Ultrabook or other ultra-portable wouldn't work for you doesn't mean it's useless for everyone.
XXAOSICXX 25th April 2012, 23:31 Quote
I think you misunderstood me. It's not the spec that's the issue, it's the spec of the machine for the money they're asking for it.

My work is a mixture of typical office-type stuff, some coding, some media playback and, bizarrely, writing the odd magazine article :p

I work off a Sony Vaio laptop that wasn't much less than £1500 but is a vasty superior spec and is inherently more appropriate for working with tools like MS Office, Visual Studio, connecting to the corporate domain and playing games ;)
Nexxo 25th April 2012, 23:33 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by HiMyNameIsWill
This is a PC enthusiasts forums. Enjoy your Crapbook.

http://www.seattlerex.com/seattle-rex-vs-apple-the-verdict-is-in/

Actually (Mr. All-of-fourteen-posts), this is a computer enthusiasts forum. We embrace ALL the gadgets.
Gareth Halfacree 25th April 2012, 23:37 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by XXAOSICXX
I think you misunderstood me. It's not the spec that's the issue, it's the spec of the machine for the money they're asking for it. I work off a Sony Vaio laptop that wasn't much less than £1500 but is a vasty superior spec and is inherently more appropriate for working with tools like MS Office, Visual Studio, connecting to the corporate domain and playing games ;)
But I'll bet it's significantly bulkier and heavier than a MacBook Air, yes? With the Air - and, by extension, all non-Apple Ultrabooks - you're paying for the reduction in size and weight over a traditional laptop. With Apple, you're also paying the 'Apple tax' on top, but there we are - some people think that's worth the extra. Personally, I'd rather buy a non-Apple device - I'm only going to stick Linux on the damn thing anyway, so I may as well save myself the cash...
XXAOSICXX 25th April 2012, 23:37 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nexxo
Quote:
Originally Posted by HiMyNameIsWill
This is a PC enthusiasts forums. Enjoy your Crapbook.

http://www.seattlerex.com/seattle-rex-vs-apple-the-verdict-is-in/

Actually (Mr. All-of-fourteen-posts), this is a computer enthusiasts forum. We embrace ALL the gadgets.

Speak for yourself :p
XXAOSICXX 25th April 2012, 23:45 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gareth Halfacree
But I'll bet it's significantly bulkier and heavier than a MacBook Air, yes? With the Air - and, by extension, all non-Apple Ultrabooks - you're paying for the reduction in size and weight over a traditional laptop. With Apple, you're also paying the 'Apple tax' on top, but there we are - some people think that's worth the extra. Personally, I'd rather buy a non-Apple device - I'm only going to stick Linux on the damn thing anyway, so I may as well save myself the cash...

Absolutely...it's certainly not ultra-portable. You've hit the nail on the head, though....Apple Tax....which is precisely why, in the business context, I wouldn't even be entertain it unless there was a specific piece of software that you absolutely cannot avoid using.
d_stilgar 25th April 2012, 23:53 Quote
I'm not an Apple hater either, but I will say that the iOS interface was great when it debuted in 2007, but it's 2012 now and the Metro UI feels like the most modern mobile interface out there right now.

Now, as for putting Metro on everything . . . I'll just wait until I get enough feedback on whether or not Windows 8 sucks or not. One thing that it seems to be leaning toward is a movement toward closed marketplace on Windows desktop machines as well. I particularly like being able to get a program from wherever I like and put it on my desktop. I don't want that to change.
Dewi 26th April 2012, 00:12 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gareth Halfacree
Depends on the job. As a journalist, I already use an HP Pavilion dm4 fairly-portable laptop, which doesn't have the world's fastest processor (a 2.4GHz Sandy Bridge chip, I think.) My next upgrade will either be a MacBook Air or an Ultrabook, for two reasons: portability and battery life.

Most of the time, my laptop is used in the field for transcription, recording, writing and copy filing. The heaviest thing it'll be asked to do is edit a few raw files from my camera. I don't *need* a massive screen, eight-core 17GHz processor and a zillion terabytes of storage for that.

Yes, I could buy a budget laptop instead - heck, my HP was about £700 when I got it. But the budget laptop would be bulkier, harder to carry, and have inferior battery life - even if it might have more storage or a marginally faster processor. If I have some heavy lifting to do, I've got my desktop. Hell, I can SSH tunnel to my home network from anywhere in the world and use the X server on my laptop to run tasks on my desktop's hardware if I feel the need.

Don't fall into the trap of assuming everyone is like you. If your work requires a massive amount of RAM, storage, or processing power, that's one thing; but just because an Ultrabook or other ultra-portable wouldn't work for you doesn't mean it's useless for everyone.

That's pretty much my mindset. I already have a powerful desktop system; there isn't much point in having bulky powerful laptop as well... so I may as well go down the MacBook Air / Ultrabook route for the next portable PC and hook it up to a high res monitor when I'm at my desk.

But enough on hardware as this thread is supposed to be about OS integration.

10 years ago, I used a Windows 98 PC as my desktop workhorse and a PSION 7 running EPOC in much the same way as I would use an Ultra portable (if I had one) now. It was effective, but the problem came from compatibility between EPOC Word and MS Word 2000. In 2012, this isn't a problem. MS Word is pretty much compatible with iWork Pages, OpenOffice and goodness knows how many other word processing programmes. Standards have pretty much converged out of necessity now and we are better off for it.

Which is why Apple feels it can have iOS for its phones and tablets and OSX for its computer range. It doesn't matter that you can't run the same programme on both platforms because the two equivalent programmes can read and process the same data and effectively work together.

Microsoft on the other hand want to merge the environments, so that software on the PC works with the tablet (and presumably at some point the smartphone). Its a grand vision, but surely it requires one of two compromises. Either Tablets are going to have to focus on processing power at the expense of other attributes so that they can run software developed for the OS, or software is going to have to cut down so that it can work on the low powered tablets (which means Angry Birds type games becoming the PC norm). I can't see the former option working to well, and as someone who is enthusiastic about computer applications (games and others) that drive my PC hardware to the edge; I've very uncomfortable about the latter option personally.

XXAOSICXX made a legitimate point about the Macbook Air (and other ultrabooks) being underpowered. Absolutely right, but if every game from next year is designed to run on tablet hardware running Windows 8 (which from a market penetration point of view makes sense); then surely we on this forum will lose our hobby as their won't be an enthusiast market left.
Silver51 26th April 2012, 00:16 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by Brooxy
I almost feel compelled to ask - are you making this judgement through reading up on Metro, or have you actually tried it? I was apprehensive until trying it and it really isn't that bad once you get used to it. ...

Ask away good buddy. We have a test machine in the office specifically for Windows 8, because we're computer technicians and because it gives us something else to argue about.
Sloth 26th April 2012, 00:22 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by XXAOSICXX
Absolutely...it's certainly not ultra-portable. You've hit the nail on the head, though....Apple Tax....which is precisely why, in the business context, I wouldn't even be entertain it unless there was a specific piece of software that you absolutely cannot avoid using.
From the standpoint of a reasonably sized business I'd most certainly entertain the idea. It's entirely possible that Apple can make an offer which will match their PC competitors regardless of their consumer prices. When your IT department is asking for money to upgrade their systems they'd have to find a reason to justify spending more for Apple products. Apple certainly know this and likely have different pricing options or other benefits to sweeten deals.
Brooxy 26th April 2012, 00:30 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by Silver51
Ask away good buddy. We have a test machine in the office specifically for Windows 8, because we're computer technicians and because it gives us something else to argue about.

Fair play, it's just the way I read the previous comment made me think it was based upon speculation rather than experience. That said I've been doing six things at once all day, so probably got a bit confuzzled :)
hyperion 26th April 2012, 00:31 Quote
It's good to have companies like apple who do things a little bit differently. It's good for innovation, for competition, for the customer, for the market etc. It's just when they take cheap shots at competitors that I wish some other company would crush their pompous ass.
XXAOSICXX 26th April 2012, 00:36 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sloth
When your IT department is asking for money to upgrade their systems they'd have to find a reason to justify spending more for Apple products. Apple certainly know this and likely have different pricing options or other benefits to sweeten deals.

They really don't. You'd think so, but the service (and the level of discount available) from Apple is appalling.
Waynio 26th April 2012, 00:57 Quote
I'm sure metro is great with a good touch screen but it makes me cringe having that instead of a regular desktop for my keyboard & mouse, I have no interest at all in owning a touch screen monitor, ever, MS are crazy trying to push it.

They need an option for when you install windows for if you want it or not, very simple solution.
Paulg1971 26th April 2012, 09:57 Quote
What's gets me about Apple products, there is no doubt that they are good, it always seems to me that they don't always put everything on them but seem to trickle feed it out with a 'new' version every few months, and all the muppets go out and buy the latest version because it has a couple of new features. I may well be wrong but it seems they hold stuff back for the new version.
steveo_mcg 26th April 2012, 10:22 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by HiMyNameIsWill
This is a PC enthusiasts forums. Enjoy your Crapbook.

http://www.seattlerex.com/seattle-rex-vs-apple-the-verdict-is-in/

That took longer than I expected...

I'd love a Macbook but it does seem a waste just to stick in a cupboard and use my android tablet hooked up to my Linux network.... Seriously learn to read your audience. This is an enthusiasts forum not a MS fan club.
wuyanxu 26th April 2012, 10:30 Quote
Quote:
Apple made a big deal of claiming that the new iOS operating system was, at heart, the same as its OS X desktop

difference is, there is no desktop environment that are untouch-friendly. to the user, it's a touch device, it's not a mixture.

however, i would say the OS X Lion's launchpad interface is like Metru UI: a refrigetoaster. although it's optional meaning you can use it like a traditional desktop without problem. unlike the stupid Metro UI that always gets in the way.
fluxtatic 26th April 2012, 10:48 Quote
It could have been so easy for MS - give me that old-school "classic desktop" option, like XP had, but falling back to the Win7 desktop. My experience with Win8 was entirely 'the interface sucks hairy balls', but that was just the dev preview, so I was willing to not hate on it just then. From the reviews I've seen so far, it's not much better. As I resisted Win7 in favor of my beloved XP, I think I'll stick with 7 a while longer.

MS jumped the gun - Apple had it right in not cramming them together at once - same core, different UI. See what works well on the new UI (iOS) and gently integrate that to the old (OS X). MS done fcuked this up good - cram them together in a really haphazard, half-assed way, and watch average users flock to Apple because Apple wasn't so stupid as to completely redesign the UI and not even do a good job of it, to boot.

I'm gonna be so pissed if MS pisses away their marketshare based on stupid "how does I wrote UI?" idiocy. I think I'll hate on Ballmer for this - he doesn't strike me as exactly in touch with what the market wants. At least when I design user-facing things, I try really hard to make them idiot-proof. Of course, idiocy knows no bounds, but that doesn't mean I give up and design based on what I think is cool. I do another round of idiot-proofing.
impar 26th April 2012, 10:55 Quote
Greetings!
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dewi
MS are best when they build simple platforms that third parties can use to launch their innovative products. And to their credit they have built the best platform available to the IT world for that purpose. They are at their worst when they try and do the innovative stuff themselves, and Windows 8 looks like its going to be a prime example of that.
asmo 26th April 2012, 11:08 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gareth Halfacree
Depends on the job. As a journalist, I already use an HP Pavilion dm4 fairly-portable laptop, which doesn't have the world's fastest processor (a 2.4GHz Sandy Bridge chip, I think.) My next upgrade will either be a MacBook Air or an Ultrabook, for two reasons: portability and battery life.

Most of the time, my laptop is used in the field for transcription, recording, writing and copy filing. The heaviest thing it'll be asked to do is edit a few raw files from my camera. I don't *need* a massive screen, eight-core 17GHz processor and a zillion terabytes of storage for that.

Yes, I could buy a budget laptop instead - heck, my HP was about £700 when I got it. But the budget laptop would be bulkier, harder to carry, and have inferior battery life - even if it might have more storage or a marginally faster processor. If I have some heavy lifting to do, I've got my desktop. Hell, I can SSH tunnel to my home network from anywhere in the world and use the X server on my laptop to run tasks on my desktop's hardware if I feel the need.

Don't fall into the trap of assuming everyone is like you. If your work requires a massive amount of RAM, storage, or processing power, that's one thing; but just because an Ultrabook or other ultra-portable wouldn't work for you doesn't mean it's useless for everyone.

Sounds like you could save yourself some money for work if you went for an Acer Apsire One 772 netbook.

7hrs battery life and lightweight ;)
Stelph 26th April 2012, 11:29 Quote
Although I kind of agree with Cook's comments (it is worrying how Windows 8 seems to be fragmenting with ARM and x86 programs which could lead to programmers losing focus) I do think there is real potential for making the ultimate portable device which combines both an ARM Processor, x86 Processor and the Ultrabook design.

Imagine an Asus Transformer Prime which has all the ARM Processor and gubbins stored in the "tablet" part running the ARM version of Windows 8, that would work great as a fast access tablet since Metro looks fantastic for finger friendly use. However if you needed the legacy support for x86 Programs you can dock it with a keyboard dock, in which an X86 processor takes over and runs standard, non metro, windows. Best of the laptop and tablet worlds in one device
Gareth Halfacree 26th April 2012, 11:55 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by asmo
Sounds like you could save yourself some money for work if you went for an Acer Apsire One 772 netbook. 7hrs battery life and lightweight ;)
I have a netbook, with an extended battery for 10 hour battery life. The Atom processor sucks donkey danglies for image editing, and the tiny, low-resolution screen is next to useless (as an example, the toolbars from image editing app The Gimp don't actually fit on the screen - I have to drag 'em vertically.) The keyboard's a pain, too - I can actually type faster on my HP Bluetooth keyboard for the TouchPad than I can on the netbook.
asmo 26th April 2012, 12:10 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gareth Halfacree
I have a netbook, with an extended battery for 10 hour battery life. The Atom processor sucks donkey danglies for image editing, and the tiny, low-resolution screen is next to useless (as an example, the toolbars from image editing app The Gimp don't actually fit on the screen - I have to drag 'em vertically.) The keyboard's a pain, too - I can actually type faster on my HP Bluetooth keyboard for the TouchPad than I can on the netbook.

I was only half joking but on the good side this netbook has an 11.6 inch screen plus an AMD C-60 dual core CPU, arguably better than an Atom, IMO.
loftie 26th April 2012, 12:25 Quote
That's a scary article, but I don't think anyone is really too surprised. The amount of crap that happened with Apple when I used to sell them was just silly, and I assume the guy in that article is correct, Apple assume that their customers don't know anything and accept Apples answers as truth as they definitely would not lie.
It's sad really, I'm sure all companies screw over their consumers to an extent, but why do they feel they have to? Maybe I'm more biased against Apple because of the crap they did, not that I can actually remember what happened, but still.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nexxo
Quote:
Originally Posted by HiMyNameIsWill
This is a PC enthusiasts forums. Enjoy your Crapbook.

http://www.seattlerex.com/seattle-rex-vs-apple-the-verdict-is-in/
Actually (Mr. All-of-fourteen-posts), this is a computer enthusiasts forum. We embrace ALL the gadgets.

As Nexxo said, all gadgets here :P plus an you must have been listening to Apple propaganda, as an Apple computer is still a PC
Morrius 26th April 2012, 14:17 Quote
I use a Macbook, iPad and iPhone alongside a gaming PC etc, and I have to wonder what Cook is smoking. Practically every update in Lion and scheduled update in Mountain Lion is cribbed directly from IOS.
x5pilot 27th April 2012, 13:09 Quote
I HATE Apple and everything they stand for - don't ask me why (there are many reasons).
So you could say I am Microsoft biased...

However, my phone is an Android and so far this Metro UI is doing nothing for me!
Pieface 27th April 2012, 13:50 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by x5pilot
I HATE Apple and everything they stand for - don't ask me why (there are many reasons).
So you could say I am Microsoft biased...

However, my phone is an Android and so far this Metro UI is doing nothing for me!

Have you had direct dealings with Apple, or joining in with the crowd in Apple hating. I genuinely wonder how you could possibly hate a company. I just don't use them, and don't let them get to me personally.
BLC 27th April 2012, 14:00 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by Brooxy
As for Apple, if there ever was an ideal time for them to release OS X as a standalone OS for PCs and price the hell out of it, this would be it IMHO - as people will have to change UI at some point, they could use it to they're advantage saying that if you're changing, you may as well change to something that is designed for all your iProducts...

Note I'm not a fan of OSX - merely stating that this would be an ideal time for Apple to gain marketshare by piggy-backing off the inevitable haters of Win8

Hell yes. They'll never do this however, because they will likely be afraid that it will dilute the user experience - and create an awful lot more work for them. One of the reasons that OS X "just works" is the relative lack of drivers it needs. If you've got some obscure hardware you may need some extra kexts/drivers here and there, but for the vast majority of Apple machines this is not the case: install the OS and you're away. You can do the same with Windows 7, but you'd still want optimised drivers for things like graphics. You don't need this in OS X. But if it suddenly had to start supporting a much wider range of hardware, that much-vaunted stability and ease of use would start to go out of the window without a huge effort from Apple; it's not likely that they'd make a profitable return on such an investment.

Though I would more than welcome a proper release of OS X for the PC; I've already used my PC as a "hackintosh" (using a proper retail copy and not an OEM disc, before you ask) and I actually don't mind OS X.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dewi
It's no coincidence that the best OS's MS have ever built have been Windows 98 SE, Windows XP and Windows 7; in each case evolutionary jumps where they (arguably) stripped out a lot of the bloat they'd introduced in previous versions.

You forgot Windows 2000 ;). I'd argue that was more of an "evolutionary jump" than WinXP was: it was the first OS to combine the ease of use and compatibility of the home desktop with stable, secure and network-friendly workstation features (though WinXP was better for remote access/VPN). It still had the original Win98 style appearance, but had many of the advantages of WinNT4: better networking/domain support, multi-processor/multi-threading support, better memory management, better stability, etc... WinXP was basically the same core OS as Win2000 with some media improvements (as well as some networking changes that weren't really relevant to me then) and a horrible new look; horrible at least in my book - at least you could turn it off. At the time it felt like WinXP just had too much un-needed bloat; lots of little things like built in support for CD burning or WMP which could easily be achieved with third-party applications. It helps that the system requirements were far lower, too: WinXP really needed around 1GB RAM to run smoothly, whereas Win2K could cope on far less. WinXP was definitely an improvement over 2K, but it wasn't quite the "revolution" that Win2K was.

Man, it took me a *long* time to switch from Win2000 to WinXP; as they were essentially the same thing, there was no real reason to upgrade. I only really made the switch when applications I used regularly no longer supported Win2000.
AmEv 28th April 2012, 01:32 Quote
My biggest problem with 9x family?

It was insecure. I mean, you didn't even have to log in to have full administrative rights! (Good old "Cancel" button!)

AND, "format C:" was too easy to accomplish.
BLC 28th April 2012, 12:04 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by AmEv
My biggest problem with 9x family?

It was insecure. I mean, you didn't even have to log in to have full administrative rights! (Good old "Cancel" button!)

AND, "format C:" was too easy to accomplish.

Before Win2K/WinXP, few people were familiar with even the concept of an Admin account...
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