does not have to goto the Bin first if you Press Shift and DEL (asks to delete the file skips the bin) the NTFS driver will tell the SSD to TRIM the LBA sectors where the Item was stored when the drive is idle (but i guess it does it on the fly as well from the tests that bit-tech did samsung drives seem to suffer an little)
That's something, then. Thanks for clearing that up.
It'd still be nice if it occurred at a lower level than the OS though!
the SSD can not know what is data or not if its not been told what's what, that's what the TRIM ATA command is for and it seems like it is an low level command, not sure if you can get any more lower then the NTFS driver as it Only knows what's deleted from the HDD (or Linux file system driver that does the same thing)
Vertex and M225, On XP or VIsta, you can run the Wiper tool that does an Trim on free space that works on XP and Vista
Now that is good information. Can anyone, such as Bit-Tech, confirm that this works?
Does it work on RAIDs?
Bear in mind "does it work on RAIDs" is a two pronged question: does it work on hardware RAIDs (probably not, as literal drive commands tend not to make it through the hardware), and does it work on drives that are part of a Windows soft RAID (possibly it will if it is smart enough to let you specify drive by controller string rather than just drive letter).
Originally Posted by zagortenay SSDs are "worthless in its current state". SSD is not a bleeding edge technology, but it is a technology which is terribly bleeding. You have to be a fool to pay 400$ for only 120/128 GByte hd space and left out in cold, if you don't use Win 7, because other OS do not support trim. When I pay 400 bucks for a pc component, I don't except any excuses. I assembled a brand new system for a friend recently for only 402$ (excluding monitor and the peripherals). Having to pay such a great amount of "hard earned" money for a half broken component is called "highway robbery". Don't get ripped, just be patient and wait a few yaers for ssd technology to mature. With all those sheep getting in line to be milked, there is not much reason for the companies to really push the technology, they will get enough milk anyway.
This sounds like a comment from someone that cannot afford to buy one and has never used one.
I recently purchased the intel 160GB G2 drive and I have Windows 7 installed on it and my former HD. And there is a noticeable different when I use windows on the HD compared to the SSD.
And for so called doubters such as yourself I have people comeover and use the machine on the ssd, reboot and then the HD and they now see the difference. So you can wait a few years and I will enjoy the speed right now!
As for those with Raid 0 you will have to wait alittle longer for support. However if you one of those Raid 0 noobs who looks at synthetic benchmarks scores all day best of luck to you. There is very little use for Raid O on a consumer desktop and it doesn't benefit much, unless you are into video editing, and or move around Multigigabyte files on a regular basis. For everything else is does nothing and just makes increases the chances of a drive failure.
Anyone who is serious about Raid will be using a Hardware raid controller anyways as motherboard Raid controllers are pretty crap!
Very good info, well presented, delved into an issue that's relevant and current, explained thoroughly without getting unreadable... This is bit-tech at it's best. Thanks a lot for this article Baz!
@ Phil and other people who utter words like "unacceptable" and "unusable" just because they don't want to stick to the usage model: please be more realistic. You have bought a set of Formula 1 tires and are complaining that it won't make your Beetle go much faster.
Lets drag out this metaphore a bit more, you haven't bought the tires yet, just proclaimed that you won't buy them at all, yet you are still complaining. Even worse (if torturing a metaphore is covered by the Geneva convention i think i'm in trouble by now), the tires will improve performance, although they wont stay as good as it was at the starting line, you'll still be crossing the finish at much greater sspeed then you would on your stock tires. Yet you still complain.
Ok, i'm done with that now, back OT.
I'm one of those zealots running RAID, and i actually find that i have good use for it. I often frequent LAN parties, and the guys running RAID setups generally seem to be able to keep gaming while files are being shared.
Apart from that i like the huge single volume it creates, and i also enjoy the cheesecake factor of it.
I have been using a Vertex 30GB for about two weeks now. I got it cheap with the intention of selling it, but i made the mistake of wanting to try it out first. I dont think i could miss it now... It's a 1.4, so you have me convinced to update Baz :D cheers!
Vertex and M225, On XP or VIsta, you can run the Wiper tool that does an Trim on free space that works on XP and Vista
Now that is good information. Can anyone, such as Bit-Tech, confirm that this works?
Does it work on RAIDs?
Bear in mind "does it work on RAIDs" is a two pronged question: does it work on hardware RAIDs (probably not, as literal drive commands tend not to make it through the hardware), and does it work on drives that are part of a Windows soft RAID (possibly it will if it is smart enough to let you specify drive by controller string rather than just drive letter).
Grrrr - wiper.exe is mentioned in the article numerous times - I'll have to make the next one a little more succinct. The problem with wiper.exe is it's a short term solution that needs to be manually run, and from my experience isn't as effective as fullly fledged TRIM. It's something, don't get me wrong, but it's only for Indilinx based drives and even then is a pain to have to regularly manually run.
Sorry Phil, the wiper.exe won't wont on raided drives, as it finds the raid controller and not the drive controller :(
Originally Posted by Phil Rhodes Now that is good information. Can anyone, such as Bit-Tech, confirm that this works?
Does it work on RAIDs?
Bear in mind "does it work on RAIDs" is a two pronged question: does it work on hardware RAIDs (probably not, as literal drive commands tend not to make it through the hardware), and does it work on drives that are part of a Windows soft RAID (possibly it will if it is smart enough to let you specify drive by controller string rather than just drive letter).
as stated 3-4 times in my own post and some others as well, the Drivers on the system must be in IDE mode or AHCI native mode with {No chip set drivers install or no Intel matrix driver or BIOS set RAID mode} for the WIper tool or TRIM support to work
Sorry Phil, the wiper.exe won't wont on raided drives, as it finds the raid controller and not the drive controller :(
This should not technically need to apply to soft RAIDs built in Disk Manager; I wonder if it does.
If the syntax is something like "wiper.exe c:" then you're stuffed. If there's a way to give it "multi(0)disk(0)rdisk(0)", which there technically could be if all they need to do is issue a command, then it should be OK.
most it do is fail to find the disk and it will as the wiper tool directly sends the Trim command to the SSD cant do that on an RAID array soft or Hardware (95% sure it not work)
why it's best to Buy the Size of the SSD you need be it 128GB or 256GB (2x128GB is more then an 256gb ssd as well)
Originally Posted by Baz ...While you won't get trim on anything but Win 7 (which is bad)...
This is something that has long puzzled me - the NTFS filesystem used by Win7 is not significantly different from Vista/XP/2000 so why should there be such a limitation? It should be in SSD manufacturers' interest to have as much done in firmware as possible since that would then cover OS X, Linux and other OSes as well as all versions of Windows, but having an extra command run when the recycle bin is emptied is a simple matter for any Windows version (CCleaner is one example which can be run from the Recycle bin).
do not think CCleaner free space wipe is not recommended to be ran on none TRIM supported drives, and more so on drives that have or do not have GC support as once the drive has been filed it brakes the GC part of the drive, keep 20GB free on SSDs at all time (unless you got Trim then your good to go)
What a brill thread Baz,
Brilliantly executed and Very informative - as it has unraveled a lot of the myth's out there (for a complete newby to SSD's like my'self)
Having just purchased a couple of Crucial 64Gb M225's - can you confirm if the previously mentioned Ocz V1.5 up-date is the correct one for these drives? (ie: your article was referring to the 120GB versions - hence not sure if their the same)
Note - My original plan was to Raid these using XP - ( but I now know better )
- If I've read things correctly -
No Trim support for XP ( = upgrade to Win 7) although No Raid support for any OS to date ( July 2010)
Win 7 here I come -
On a side note -
Would it make sense to use one of the SSD's as the boot drive (with the operating system / programs etc) and put the folders (my pics -my vids - music etc) on the second SSd
- or -
would I be better off using my original 'Raptors' (in Raid) for the storage drive?
Jesus Christ just buy some really good HDDs and use a raid set up for a year while the SSD manufactures perfect this new technology. With all the money you just saved you can now go buy a bigger monitor or some great graphics cards as SSD prices are still way too high.
And for those running Xp and Vista as primary OS...sorry but you should have bought Win 7 instead of an SSD drive Xp is being phased out and Vistas sucks.
SSD will eliminate HDD but just gotta wait till all the kinks are worked out.
Comments 51 to 68 of 68
ReplyThat's something, then. Thanks for clearing that up.
It'd still be nice if it occurred at a lower level than the OS though!
Now that is good information. Can anyone, such as Bit-Tech, confirm that this works?
Does it work on RAIDs?
Bear in mind "does it work on RAIDs" is a two pronged question: does it work on hardware RAIDs (probably not, as literal drive commands tend not to make it through the hardware), and does it work on drives that are part of a Windows soft RAID (possibly it will if it is smart enough to let you specify drive by controller string rather than just drive letter).
This sounds like a comment from someone that cannot afford to buy one and has never used one.
I recently purchased the intel 160GB G2 drive and I have Windows 7 installed on it and my former HD. And there is a noticeable different when I use windows on the HD compared to the SSD.
And for so called doubters such as yourself I have people comeover and use the machine on the ssd, reboot and then the HD and they now see the difference. So you can wait a few years and I will enjoy the speed right now!
As for those with Raid 0 you will have to wait alittle longer for support. However if you one of those Raid 0 noobs who looks at synthetic benchmarks scores all day best of luck to you. There is very little use for Raid O on a consumer desktop and it doesn't benefit much, unless you are into video editing, and or move around Multigigabyte files on a regular basis. For everything else is does nothing and just makes increases the chances of a drive failure.
Anyone who is serious about Raid will be using a Hardware raid controller anyways as motherboard Raid controllers are pretty crap!
Much as I agree with you in the main, there are a large number of exceptions to that.
@ Phil and other people who utter words like "unacceptable" and "unusable" just because they don't want to stick to the usage model: please be more realistic. You have bought a set of Formula 1 tires and are complaining that it won't make your Beetle go much faster.
Lets drag out this metaphore a bit more, you haven't bought the tires yet, just proclaimed that you won't buy them at all, yet you are still complaining. Even worse (if torturing a metaphore is covered by the Geneva convention i think i'm in trouble by now), the tires will improve performance, although they wont stay as good as it was at the starting line, you'll still be crossing the finish at much greater sspeed then you would on your stock tires. Yet you still complain.
Ok, i'm done with that now, back OT.
I'm one of those zealots running RAID, and i actually find that i have good use for it. I often frequent LAN parties, and the guys running RAID setups generally seem to be able to keep gaming while files are being shared.
Apart from that i like the huge single volume it creates, and i also enjoy the cheesecake factor of it.
I have been using a Vertex 30GB for about two weeks now. I got it cheap with the intention of selling it, but i made the mistake of wanting to try it out first. I dont think i could miss it now... It's a 1.4, so you have me convinced to update Baz :D cheers!
Grrrr - wiper.exe is mentioned in the article numerous times - I'll have to make the next one a little more succinct. The problem with wiper.exe is it's a short term solution that needs to be manually run, and from my experience isn't as effective as fullly fledged TRIM. It's something, don't get me wrong, but it's only for Indilinx based drives and even then is a pain to have to regularly manually run.
Sorry Phil, the wiper.exe won't wont on raided drives, as it finds the raid controller and not the drive controller :(
as stated 3-4 times in my own post and some others as well, the Drivers on the system must be in IDE mode or AHCI native mode with {No chip set drivers install or no Intel matrix driver or BIOS set RAID mode} for the WIper tool or TRIM support to work
This should not technically need to apply to soft RAIDs built in Disk Manager; I wonder if it does.
If the syntax is something like "wiper.exe c:" then you're stuffed. If there's a way to give it "multi(0)disk(0)rdisk(0)", which there technically could be if all they need to do is issue a command, then it should be OK.
why it's best to Buy the Size of the SSD you need be it 128GB or 256GB (2x128GB is more then an 256gb ssd as well)
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16820227469
Brilliantly executed and Very informative - as it has unraveled a lot of the myth's out there (for a complete newby to SSD's like my'self)
Having just purchased a couple of Crucial 64Gb M225's - can you confirm if the previously mentioned Ocz V1.5 up-date is the correct one for these drives? (ie: your article was referring to the 120GB versions - hence not sure if their the same)
Note - My original plan was to Raid these using XP - ( but I now know better )
- If I've read things correctly -
No Trim support for XP ( = upgrade to Win 7) although No Raid support for any OS to date ( July 2010)
Win 7 here I come -
On a side note -
Would it make sense to use one of the SSD's as the boot drive (with the operating system / programs etc) and put the folders (my pics -my vids - music etc) on the second SSd
- or -
would I be better off using my original 'Raptors' (in Raid) for the storage drive?
And for those running Xp and Vista as primary OS...sorry but you should have bought Win 7 instead of an SSD drive Xp is being phased out and Vistas sucks.
SSD will eliminate HDD but just gotta wait till all the kinks are worked out.
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