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Raspberry Pi: the modder's dream machine?

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Picarro 26th January 2012, 20:20 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by Blackshark
Unfortunately, at the moment, it is not possible to support direct storage (SATA) or PCI/e. USB3 could be added, but note that the actual bandwidth available is only really enough for USB 2 (hence why it has the USB2 ports and 10/100 ethernet.

Even then, the USB2 and ethernet are shared. We are yet to see what effect it has, reading off the network (for media playback, say 20 to 40Mbs for Bluray) and accessing the USB port at the same time. But so long as you are not trying to push too much through the USB, its looking like network performance is stable enough.

I also really like the idea of putting the RPi inside the receiver. I have a Sony system with a large central Sub and I am sure there will be space in that plus plenty of power.


In terms of power - 5V at 700mA is enough to run the device and display. However 1A is 'preferred' and you should be looking at more than that if you want to run bus powered USB / 2 devices. So a 2A 5V power supply would be the perfect solution.

Solar power - actually need a fairly big panel to supply 5V 1A, but, what is not known is how much the board will consume without the display being used. But with a storage battery and maybe a 1.5 or 2A panel and you could have a self sustained field station for monitoring.

Clustering / Render farm - The GPU has reasonable power, the CPU doesnt. At the moment, there is no GPGPU available, so how ever many of these you tie together (yes even 10,000!!) it would be extremely inefficient and not a supercomputer. However, a small cluster would provide a great resource for learning parrallel programming, cluster set up and monitoring etc...

Car media and/or monitoring - as mentioned in the article, there is a Car Media project running (well as soon as the RPi ships!) as well as talk of turning it in to a car monitoring device that hooks up via the car data port in modern cars


Would be great support for the project if Bit-Tech supported (not monetary more exposure) a project of two.

You might want to watch out for magnet interference if you put it in the sub. I am not sure how much of an effect it would have, but having a large magnet moving within 20 cm's of it is probably not the best performance enhancer.
technogiant 26th January 2012, 20:32 Quote
Will the ethernet capable version be able to stream lovefilm and netflix through the browser?
PCBuilderSven 26th January 2012, 22:41 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by schmidtbag


I gather you haven't used Linux in a while, because what you said is the stereotypical Linux, or what Linux was like from 2006 and earlier.

+1 @ bobwya

Just what I was thinking :)
Guinevere 26th January 2012, 22:50 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by schmidtbag
Most of the "devel tools" on Linux are indistinguishable from a text editor (although, to be fair, quite a lot of linux is indistinguishable from a text editor...)

Truth :)
schmidtbag 26th January 2012, 23:51 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by Guinevere
Quote:
Originally Posted by schmidtbag
Most of the "devel tools" on Linux are indistinguishable from a text editor (although, to be fair, quite a lot of linux is indistinguishable from a text editor...)

Truth :)

uh.... unless you misquoted, i never said that. i actually argued AGAINST that.
r3loaded 27th January 2012, 00:03 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by Phil Rhodes
Well, no, Linux has lots of devel tools. Most of them are very far from nice. Most of the "devel tools" on Linux are indistinguishable from a text editor (although, to be fair, quite a lot of linux is indistinguishable from a text editor...)

Much as people like to promote it as such, the idea that linux is in any way friendly or easy to get into as a brand-new software engineer is absolute fantasy.

P
I beg to disagree - at my university, we're taught Java development from the very beginning within a Linux environment. They cover all the basics and use the bash shell as much as possible. The initial text editor is nedit, though they also strongly encourage you to use vim a bit later on (which has awesome support for scripts and configs, and integrates well with Eclipse through a script). If a bunch of freshers straight out of school (many with no prior programming experience) can develop comfortably in Linux within a couple of months, then anyone can.
dark_avenger 27th January 2012, 03:04 Quote
With a dedicated XBMC port I'll probably pick up 2-3 of them.

Really like the idea of having it mounted inside the 5.1 receiver.
Might have to see if there is much room in the lounge room LCD to fit one...

I have a feeling we are likely to see quite a number of awesome mods with this in Bit-tech come the launch date.
AmEv 27th January 2012, 06:23 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by GuilleAcoustic
I think the PI + arduino combo will make a lovely couple :) ...

You and I are on the same brainwave.....
baztow 27th January 2012, 15:26 Quote
As a student taking a degree in Computer Science, I can't wait to get my hands on this. as I have no doubt that my programming skills will be improved by messing around with it! I will likely purchase more than one. One for messing around with. One to be used as a NAS and another for XMBC.
zef 27th January 2012, 16:26 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by r3loaded
Quote:
Originally Posted by Phil Rhodes
Well, no, Linux has lots of devel tools. Most of them are very far from nice. Most of the "devel tools" on Linux are indistinguishable from a text editor (although, to be fair, quite a lot of linux is indistinguishable from a text editor...)

Much as people like to promote it as such, the idea that linux is in any way friendly or easy to get into as a brand-new software engineer is absolute fantasy.

P
I beg to disagree - at my university, we're taught Java development from the very beginning within a Linux environment. They cover all the basics and use the bash shell as much as possible. The initial text editor is nedit, though they also strongly encourage you to use vim a bit later on (which has awesome support for scripts and configs, and integrates well with Eclipse through a script). If a bunch of freshers straight out of school (many with no prior programming experience) can develop comfortably in Linux within a couple of months, then anyone can.

Exactly. Sorry Phil but the inability of the average programmer to do anything outside Visual Studio is _exactly_ why we need things like the Rasberry to expose younger people to programming, less they become stuck in the vendor controlled mindset of 'it has to in visual studio or I can't do it'.

As for Linux lacking dev tools.. it's obvious you have very little knowledge of linux. For people actually interested in learning programming in general, not programming for Windows/Visual studio, I'd recommend starting off with C++ or python in Eclipse, on linux.
Phil Rhodes 27th January 2012, 18:50 Quote
Quote:
As for Linux lacking dev tools.. it's obvious you have very little knowledge of linux.

Linux people really do like to make arrogant, unilateral statements like this, especially when they don't have the slightest idea what they're talking about. You have no idea what my experience is.

There is no real unified IDE on Linux. If you're writing Windows apps, you can do it in VS and the code will be easy to work on, on various Windows PCs, easy to deploy, and there is excellent documentation for the environment and everything it gives you. Same with Macs, and xcode.

In Linux you get this: http://wyw.dcweb.cn/vim/vim_session.png

You get the world's largest collection of indifferently-documented (well, let's face it, it's opensource, so more or less undocumented) code, sprawled across a thousand folders in various parts of the filesystem that the OS may or may not let you access, that all have to be the right versions of the right libraries in exactly the right place with source, headers, and binaries, paths hacked into makefiles and configure scripts in exactly the right way...

And even then you have to contend with exactly what "linux" is, which means dealing with a couple of dozen common distributions which are sort of partially compatible, sometimes, on a good day, each of which can be retrofitted and reconfigured and modified out of all recognition. There are even two common window managers and GUI toolkits.

And then the ./configure gives you ten screens full of unhelpful error messages and crashes.

Linux is a brutally hostile place to learn software engineering. VS makes it easy? Yes, it does, and that's a good thing. Writing code is not about points for effort, but even if it was, that's hardly the right approach for beginners.

P
zef 27th January 2012, 19:43 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by Phil Rhodes

There is no real unified IDE on Linux.

http://www.eclipse.org/screenshots/images/SDK-RedFlag_Linux.png

We done here? I think so. I had already mentioned Eclipse earlier, you chose to ignore it. Anyway, you're entitled to whatever opinions you want to hold, no matter how innacurate.
debs3759 27th January 2012, 19:50 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by Phil Rhodes
Linux is a brutally hostile place to learn software engineering. VS makes it easy? Yes, it does, and that's a good thing. Writing code is not about points for effort, but even if it was, that's hardly the right approach for beginners.

There is another way to look at it. If you write code using Visual Studio, you are writing apps that will work under Windows, and typically only under Windows. The code is not easily portable to compile/run under other operating environments (other OS and/or other hardware). If you learn to program under Linux, most compilers will more easily accept standard code that can be compiled for any operating environment.

Although a lot of people use Windows, there are also a lot of people who use other environments (for example, do you have a mobile phone? They need people who can write code for them as well). Learning to program under Linux on an ARM based system can lead to a wider range of skills, even if it takes a little longer to write your first complex program.

I'm not saying it is (or should be) easy, merely that it offers different options. Everyone (pretty much) already has access to PCs that run Windows and can program for them. Most people are not as capable when it comes to writing for anything without Windows.
Phil Rhodes 27th January 2012, 19:58 Quote
Quote:
most compilers will more easily accept standard code that can be compiled for any operating environment.

As long as you write code that doesn't use any graphics, audio, networking, or any other feature of the computer not supported by the standard library, sure. This really is wishful thinking: the core logic of the program may be portable, but that's often less than half the work of a serious piece of software. Come to think of it, this may be why so few Linux programs have UIs: they're hard, and they're difficult to port!

And Eclipse? Yes, that's one. And there are dozens of others, most of them feeble, but that's not the point: the reason VS is useful is not because it's either good or bad in itself, it's useful because it's a standard. There is almost no standardisation of anything on linux, which is more than anything else what makes it such a comprehensive problem child.

P
zef 27th January 2012, 20:15 Quote
VS is not a standard. It's one product by one company designed to make programs for one, and only one, operating system. It works well within those parameters but that is it.

You are complaining that a $35 device should be able to be programmed for in Windows and under VS, each of which costs hundreds of dollars! Do you not see the illogic in this? How on earth is a teenager starting out with programming supposed to afford a VS license?

And again, your statements are _incorrect_. Eclipse itself is a cross platform application that runs on Windows, OSX and linux. So is firefox and a billion other applications. Name just _one_ VS application that is cross platform if you please.

In summary: You learn to program in VS, you know how to program in VS and how to make programs for Windows.
You learn to program anywhere outside VS, you learn to program.

It is no longer ok to just learn Visual Studio, the world has moved on.
Phil Rhodes 27th January 2012, 20:37 Quote
Quote:
VS is not a standard. It's one product by one company designed to make programs for one, and only one, operating system. It works well within those parameters but that is it.

So does everything else. With the exception of some very specific things, like the game IDEs that let you hit one button for the Xbox version and one for the PS3 version, moving code between platforms requires user intervention. This is true for all IDEs in all languages.
Quote:
You are complaining that a $35 device should be able to be programmed for in Windows and under VS, each of which costs hundreds of dollars!

The Express versions of VS are free and more than adequate for educational purposes. The likelihood that someone has access to Linux but not Windows is so microscopically slight as to be completely irrelevant.

In any case, the situation is not necessarily that VS is either good or bad, it's that people are trying to make out that Linux is a nice way to code. It isn't. Merely setting up a build environment to compile software you didn't even write is a nightmare of hacking text files, downloading and unpacking archives, creating directory structures and tweaking scripts. Actually writing new code? Ha.

P
zef 27th January 2012, 20:44 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by Phil Rhodes

In any case, the situation is not necessarily that VS is either good or bad, it's that people are trying to make out that Linux is a nice way to code. It isn't. Merely setting up a build environment to compile software you didn't even write is a nightmare of hacking text files, downloading and unpacking archives, creating directory structures and tweaking scripts. Actually writing new code? Ha.

P

Are you being serious? Whatever, I suggest you go read up and learn a thing or two rather than spewing bullshit all over the place. To get you started:

[1] http://www.wxwidgets.org/docs/book/
[2] https://qt.nokia.com/products/
[3] http://gcc.gnu.org/
[4] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Make_%28software%29
[5] http://wiki.python.org/moin/PyQt
Phil Rhodes 27th January 2012, 22:25 Quote
Well, that's a stack of stuff to learn.

But that's not really the point. The fact that all of these things exist does not make them easy to use, well documented, or well integrated. And they aren't, at least nothing like the Windows option.
zef 27th January 2012, 22:34 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by Phil Rhodes
Well, that's a stack of stuff to learn.

But that's not really the point. The fact that all of these things exist does not make them easy to use, well documented, or well integrated. And they aren't, at least nothing like the Windows option.

No, you're right, they're not like the Windows option. The Windows option only works on Windows.
dancingbear84 27th January 2012, 22:50 Quote
Dudes...
This sounds like the iPhone/Android argument me and my boss have on a daily basis.
As a 28 year old parent with a limited disposable income and limited time and no experience coding here is how I sees it:
1. I can have a dedicated machine to learn to code on. It may not be the nicest way to learn but it is a. cheap b. hopefully quite well documented given the "high profile" nature of the project.
If I were to learn some basic skills coding on the Pi and decided to look into other languages/environments then that transition would be easier given the skills that had already been learnt.
Basically pi is good. End of. In my opinion anyway
schmidtbag 27th January 2012, 22:56 Quote
Phil, you accuse Linux users as being arrogant, yet you are the one arguing against many people. You have yet to prove anything - that includes proving how Linux is CURRENTLY an unfriendly development environment, explicitly how VS is a superior IDE, and any other argument you've had against your responses to anyone. This is more than just arrogance, this is ignorance.

I would have to agree that stuff like ./configure, make, and so on tend to fail often with useless results. However, this is 100% the developers fault for not specifying dependencies. Every developer who labels the dependencies in the programs documentation eventually ends up compiling successfully for me. Otherwise, I give up on the program. I strongly believe it is not up to the user to figure out what packages are needed in order to compile something and I do find it frustrating. But when kids learn to code themselves, they don't have to worry about such problems if they pay attention to what libraries they use. I'm also not a fan of vi, vim, or any other variant. If I want a barebone text editor, I use nano. Otherwise, there's plenty of really good graphical development tools.

Here's some fun facts:
Linus Torvalds, the creator of Linux, programmed the OS as a child, for fun. This was before VS was this "magnificent" tool that you praise today. He probably coded in vi, which is simpler than the tool you seem to hate - vim.
Xcode in Mac uses Linux's compiling tools, including LLVM and GCC. Mac also uses many other open source software that is commonly developed in Linux such as X11, CUPS, and python.
Today, you can get away with a functional Linux setup without opening a terminal once. For experienced users like myself, the terminal actually makes things faster and easier once you learn it. I actually get annoyed at Windows for how little CLI support it has and how featureless the command prompt is.
steveo_mcg 27th January 2012, 23:54 Quote
schimdtbag, do your self a favour stick him on your ignore list and move on. People more patient than saints have been round the houses with Phill Rhodes.
Phil Rhodes 28th January 2012, 00:31 Quote
It's not really about "proving" anything, that's rather difficult in discourse. I'm just pointing out that, unless they have done a lot of work to create a dev environment, putting a linux OS on an Arm dev board is not a great route to getting people into coding, because coding under linux is hard work.

And if they have done a lot of work to create a dev environment, well, they'll have basically recreated xcode or VS or whatever other IDE you care to mention, so what's the point.
dancingbear84 28th January 2012, 00:43 Quote
The point is it is creating a buzz and an interest. I am now interested in getting one and trying a bit of programing. If 1% of people who bought one started developing for the fun of it there are 100 more bedroom devs out there from the first production cycle alone, who will invariably progress and find their niche. This is good for computing in general and the economy. If the other 99 get used for http servers or xbmc that is not a bad thing either.
zef 28th January 2012, 00:46 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by Phil Rhodes
I'm just pointing out that, unless they have done a lot of work to create a dev environment, putting a linux OS on an Arm dev board is not a great route to getting people into coding, because coding under linux is hard work.

And if they have done a lot of work to create a dev environment, well, they'll have basically recreated xcode or VS or whatever other IDE you care to mention, so what's the point.

Last reply, you are now on my ignore list Phil.

Your statements are, once again, factually incorrect. You have obviously not read any of the replies above nor any of the links provided if you still insist that linux dev tools are subpar, which is frankly a laughable statement born of ignorance and/or a real desire to spread bullshit.

You do not need to do 'alot of work' to create a dev environment, it is already there. It _has_ to be there because that's how linux works, you have to try pretty hard to have linux without a dev environment for crying out loud.

The rest of the stuff, what IDE you use and what pretty GUI it has is built on top of the dev tools already there. Eclipse just uses these tools and provides a GUI on top of them. You can even use these same tools on Windows.

But please, do keep ignoring the world and stick your head in a Visual Studio sandbox.
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