bit-tech.net

The Dark Side of Overdrive

Comments 1 to 25 of 64

Reply
p3n 6th February 2009, 09:49 Quote
*hums intro for fear of the dark*

I remember drama at 'CPL' when they started using TFT screens, wonder if they had such noticeable lag back then.
Interesting stuff.
severedhead 6th February 2009, 10:09 Quote
Interesting read. This is something I was unaware of and despite having a 2405WFP, do not notice. I guess I'm lucky in that respect - or maybe just rubbish at gaming?

This now seems like buying a new monitor is a shot in the dark. I'd like to think its really only the cheaper models out there I need to be wary of, or is it?
capnPedro 6th February 2009, 10:18 Quote
Well I don't notice any odd/bad effects on my SyncMaster 226BW so I'm happy! :p

Good to see another "explain a technical idea simply and interestingly" article. And embedded videos too? Oh ambassador, you spoil us.
500mph 6th February 2009, 10:20 Quote
Cheers for the in-depth review. Not something that really concerns me though, but I know some people will read this like they breathe air.(Not sure what I meant by that)
I wonder how my two 1907fp's would look in landscape next to a 3007wfp or a 2407fp.
Anyone want to send me one so I can find out?
flibblesan 6th February 2009, 10:22 Quote
No problems with my Advent X19W. Well worth the £90 I paid for it.
Kúsař 6th February 2009, 10:30 Quote
Very well done, this article is!
I've got PVA LCD and I'm well aware of it's drawbacks. Input lag is short enough and ghosting is noticable only if you know where to look but it's not as fast as I would like(I have read rumours that Eizo's overdrive works slightly different way). But image quality is breath-taking. Especially in games like Crysis or Oblivion.
I wonder when we'll see impressive & fast display without technologies like overdrive.
Jenny_Y8S 6th February 2009, 11:02 Quote
Well I've just ordered a Dell 2408WFP, it has terrible output lag :(

It won't be delivered until Monday.

(Did you see what I did there?)
hexx 6th February 2009, 11:12 Quote
no problem on 27" Dell ;)
hexx 6th February 2009, 11:13 Quote
happy that i bought it, wanted to go for 24 incher but 27 Dell is different category - colors, black levels, uniformity and of course size
wafflesomd 6th February 2009, 11:26 Quote
I've got a Viewsonic VA1930wm. I loved it at first, for about a year. Then I noticed the intolerable ghosting after I set it next to a CRT.

Since then I've gone back to my flat trinitron that will do 1600x1200 @85hrtz. I've been searching for a 4:3 LCD that can keep up with my CRT. It seems as though every LCD I've looked at so far, has some form of ghosting. On a CRT, my eyes can perfectly track moving objects on screen. With LCD's, if they blur even the slightest, I lost track and often, will get a headache.
Flexible_Lorry 6th February 2009, 11:41 Quote
I have a 3007WFP-HC and as reported in the article, have never noticed input lag. It does suffer from a not-too-fast response rate and some moderate backlight bleeding. However it is still a beautiful panel which is quite good for most gaming and even for amateur colour image manipulation.
wuyanxu 6th February 2009, 11:42 Quote
ah, inverse ghosting is horrible!

i used to get a little bit of that in my LG L226WTQ.

so for a TN panel, if it's spec says 5ms, that means there's no overdrive??
[PUNK] crompers 6th February 2009, 12:47 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by wuyanxu

so for a TN panel, if it's spec says 5ms, that means there's no overdrive??

i think due to the manufacturing process they have faster pixels, no need for overdrive

nice article and very well written. it would be nice to see an in depth look at the actual processes involved in making monitors too though
Javerh 6th February 2009, 12:48 Quote
Interesting read. I'm planning on getting a new screen soon, but the Nec MultiSync 24WMGX3 is too expensive. Any other good candidates that are cheaper?
Benihana 6th February 2009, 13:14 Quote
What about S-PVA panels such as the BenQ FP241W? How are they different from PVA screens?
wharrad 6th February 2009, 13:21 Quote
Ahhh, this is the audiophile agruement for PCs! Finally, WE have something to get annoyed about :)

But more seriously yes and no. I'm guessing because the good folks at bit-tech review and look indepth at so much stuff through their monitors, which they also reviewed, they're going to be more sensitive than the average person.

The key here is NEVER (and I mean this) look for it in your own panels. You can live for ages and not notice a thing, but once you see it, well, that's the quick way to your credit card limit.

Thanks for the article! It's makes the most complicated purchase slightly easier (or more difficult :) )
Pookeyhead 6th February 2009, 13:40 Quote
As an owner of a 2405FPW... I can say I don't actually notice any lag at all. I'm sure it's there if people say so, but I'll be damned if I can notice any lag between me moving the mouse, and it actually moving. Any lag there is is way smaller than any human response time anyway, so let's be honest, does it really matter?

I've already decided my next screen will be IPS... but not because of any issue with input lag, which if we're honest, only really effects gamers.... or so they say! No one's reaction times are so fast as to be nerfed by the lag on my monitor, and if they say they are, they're just BSing to make themselves sound "leet"

I can't comment on the Samsung as I've never seen it, and can't do the split monitor tests here, but I've tried my damnedest to notice anything in everyday and gaming use... and failed.

Aren't we in danger of pushing the industry into spending money on this problem, which IMO would be better spent investing it into producing panels with the fidelity of IPS at the price of PVA? For me, the benefits of that would outweigh 10ms of lag.
LoopyJuice 6th February 2009, 14:01 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jenny_Y8S
Well I've just ordered a Dell 2408WFP, it has terrible output lag :(

It won't be delivered until Monday.

(Did you see what I did there?)

I bought one of these a good few months ago thinking that given its the 3rd or 4th encarnation of Dell's 24" line it would be nigh on perfect...

It lasted 5 minutes out of the box until it was put back in, sealed up and sent straight back to where it came from.

It seems i've just been incredibly lucky with TFT's and in the past had the three screens with the lowest in/output lag in existance (finally landing on my 30" Dell which I *was* going to replace with the 2408).

I noticed the lag just on the cursor on the desktop and games were unplayable for me on it.

I even looked for a new 30" that didn't fall foul to the issue but the newest 30" models all seem to have more inputs and more image processing gubbins to introduce delays, as far as i'm concerned, TFT's havn't moved forward since the 3007WFP that is god knows how many years old now!
LoopyJuice 6th February 2009, 14:03 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by LoopyJuice
I bought one of these a good few months ago thinking that given its the 3rd or 4th encarnation of Dell's 24" line it would be nigh on perfect...

It lasted 5 minutes out of the box until it was put back in, sealed up and sent straight back to where it came from.

It seems i've just been incredibly lucky with TFT's and in the past had the three screens with the lowest in/output lag in existance (finally landing on my 30" Dell which I *was* going to replace with the 2408).

I noticed the lag just on the cursor on the desktop and games were unplayable for me on it - it gave me a totally detached feeling from anything I was doing with the mouse and was horrible.

I even looked for a new 30" that didn't fall foul to the issue but the newest 30" models all seem to have more inputs and more image processing gubbins to introduce delays, as far as i'm concerned, TFT's havn't moved forward since the 3007WFP that is god knows how many years old now!
Pookeyhead 6th February 2009, 14:08 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by LoopyJuice
TFT's havn't moved forward since the 3007WFP that is god knows how many years old now!


As the model No. denotes the date of release, that will be 2 years then :)


Jesus.. is it that bad on new screens? Seriously, I can't detect anything here and mine's supposed to be one of the worst contenders for input lag.

I'm worried about upgrading now.

IS this just a problem only with PVA screens, or would the Dell 3008 also suffer? As far as I know, it's a IPS screen. I wanted to upgrade to IPS for colour reasons, and viewing angle reasons, but if lag on new monitors is so bad you can't bear to use the mouse in Windows they wouldn't be saleable.

Baffled.
Tim S 6th February 2009, 14:14 Quote
The 3008 has other issues and I'd stay away from it personally... if you're after a very colour accurate monitor, the NEC 3090WQXi is streets ahead of everything else out there. Yes, it's almost double the price of a 3007, but it makes that look sludgy side by side.
Jenny_Y8S 6th February 2009, 14:48 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by LoopyJuice
It lasted 5 minutes out of the box until it was put back in, sealed up and sent straight back to where it came from.

I doubt input lag would both me in the slightest, I have two 20" 2001FP Dell's and the 24" will look great sitting between them. Yes I game, but not to any great degree (or standard!).

I'm getting the 24" Dell as it's

- cheap
- pretty good colour rendition
- Decent inputs
- 1080p compatible

Loads of people out there game on them, so I can't believe any lag will be an issue.
Pookeyhead 6th February 2009, 15:21 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tim S
The 3008 has other issues and I'd stay away from it personally... if you're after a very colour accurate monitor, the NEC 3090WQXi is streets ahead of everything else out there. Yes, it's almost double the price of a 3007, but it makes that look sludgy side by side.


Thanks for the heads up ;)

tbh I would have seen both in action before parting with so much wedge, but it's nice to not have to if someone knowledgeable has already done it for me :)
bubsterboo 6th February 2009, 15:30 Quote
I run a Benq FP241W right beside some LG cheapo 22inch TN panel. I never noticed that my benq had input lag before. If you run a window down the middle, between both screens I can't tell at all. But as soon as i looked through it with a camera it became clearly visible. But I really like the colors and contrast of my Benq as opposed to my cheap TN monitor. The image quality is really fantastic, so IMHO it's a much better monitor especially since I can't notice the lag without a camera.

Out of curiosity, my benq does have some image processing features. Is that what causes the lag? Or is it simply the nature of the S-PVA panel it uses?
LoopyJuice 6th February 2009, 15:49 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pookeyhead
As the model No. denotes the date of release, that will be 2 years then :)


Jesus.. is it that bad on new screens? Seriously, I can't detect anything here and mine's supposed to be one of the worst contenders for input lag.

I'm worried about upgrading now.

IS this just a problem only with PVA screens, or would the Dell 3008 also suffer? As far as I know, it's a IPS screen. I wanted to upgrade to IPS for colour reasons, and viewing angle reasons, but if lag on new monitors is so bad you can't bear to use the mouse in Windows they wouldn't be saleable.

Baffled.

Actually the 3007 launched in Jan/Feb 2006 so it's had a pretty good run and I don't think it's unreasonable to expect the general market to have equalled or surpassed it, granted a lot of other areas have improved like colour, inputs etc.. but its not much good to me if I feel like i'm not even in control of the pc...

I think "couldn't bear to use the mouse in Windows" is a bit of an exaggeration, perhaps on my part, I noticed it in Windows definitely but I had to fire up an FPS game to confirm there was definitely something fishy going on and then it was really obvious when trying to accurately line up shots (sniping in Team Fortress 2 for example).

I certainly didn't want to accept any compromise given I was already going to be losing 6" of screen and my wonderful 2560x1600 resolution.

It was pretty minimal in Windows, I could just tell something was "off".
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jenny_Y8S
I doubt input lag would both me in the slightest, I have two 20" 2001FP Dell's and the 24" will look great sitting between them. Yes I game, but not to any great degree (or standard!).

I think it's probably down to individual perception but going from one of the lowest lag screens to pretty much the highest was unusable to me. Before the 3007 I had 2x2001FPs and 1x2705WFP all of which I didn't have any noticible lag on but the 3007->2408 jump was night and day.

If you don't game that much you'll probably be fine, or if you're not going straight from a CRT to the 2408 :)
Log in

You are not logged in, please login with your forum account below. If you don't already have an account please register to start contributing.



Discuss in the forums