All of the Game benches are won by the ATI HD4870 X2 2GB
The only Application bench (folding at home) is won by Nvidia cards
And in the power consumption part the ATI HD4870 X2 2GB is left out of it. (probably because it has higher power usage then anything else)
IMHO you should have left out the ATI Dualcore card completely, now people will get the wrong idea. Without it Nvidia wins.
Infact you should have left out all the ATI card and other Nvidia cards and only compare the Non watercooled GTX285 to the MSI watercooled GTX285.
All of the Game benches are won by the ATI HD4870 X2 2GB
The only Application bench (folding at home) is won by Nvidia cards
And in the power consumption part the ATI HD4870 X2 2GB is left out of it. (probably because it has higher power usage then anything else)
IMHO you should have left out the ATI Dualcore card completely, now people will get the wrong idea. Without it Nvidia wins.
Infact you should have left out all the ATI card and other Nvidia cards and only compare the Non watercooled GTX285 to the MSI watercooled GTX285.
If we didn't include the HD 4870X2, it would make for an extremely misleading article. It's in there to demonstrate that for less cash, you can get a significant amount more performance. An HD 4870X2 can be had for less than £250 - thats less than the watercooler GTX 285. Of course, the watercooled card will be quieter and cooler, but if all you want is performance, a reader needs to know what else is out there - that;s why we have all these fancy graph engines and stuff, so show you what else is available!
Originally Posted by page 2 something that was a good idea when water-cooling the GTX 280 as the RAM can get pretty darn hot when left to its own devices.
Shouldn't that be 285 instead of 280?
Other than that it's nice to see the comparison to other nVidia cards and the 4870X2. It just helps to keep in mind where to rank this one.
All of the Game benches are won by the ATI HD4870 X2 2GB
The only Application bench (folding at home) is won by Nvidia cards
And in the power consumption part the ATI HD4870 X2 2GB is left out of it. (probably because it has higher power usage then anything else)
IMHO you should have left out the ATI Dualcore card completely, now people will get the wrong idea. Without it Nvidia wins.
Infact you should have left out all the ATI card and other Nvidia cards and only compare the Non watercooled GTX285 to the MSI watercooled GTX285.
What?
Why would you possibly want to leave out a card that is cheaper and better? I thought reviews were about comparisons.
One thing I would say about watercooling the ati would be the warranty. I know some vendors support changing the cooler as long as you don't cause any damage doing it, but I am sure this was usually nvidia vendors. So while it may be cheaper, if something goes wrong and they cotton on to your watercooling you may end up spending a LOT more.
Great write up, I dont see that as a bad price at all. £100 extra is reasonable as the block alone would be about £60-70 so it means you don't have the hassle of fitting the block and you get to keep your warrenty.
EDIT: I also had the same trouble with the G1/4 ports being too close together on my Heatkiller CPU block, Im also using 45degree TFC fittings to fix that.
It would have been interesting to do a price/performance/installation comparison with other watercooled solutions, maybe grab a couple of cheap 285's, a full cover EK block and a nice little MCW60, for those of us with existing watercooled graphics hardware I think this might have been more meaningful then.
I think Bindi will kill you for asking for that. :D
They tend not to have the time to do all they want, let alone all the stuff that would be considered "fun".
Originally Posted by perplekks45 Shouldn't that be 285 instead of 280?
Other than that it's nice to see the comparison to other nVidia cards and the 4870X2. It just helps to keep in mind where to rank this one.
Another nice article. Well done. ;)
Nope, did mean the GTX 280 - was speaking reference to the RAM that was on the top side of the 280's PCB (some was GPU side, the rest was on the top side and it would get very hot if you didn't use heatsinks when watercooling the card). On the GTX 285 it's all core side so if you have a full cover water-block, all the RAM is water-cooled.
Nice card but as I said about the other MSI card, far too expensive in the current market. Given you can now get two GTX275 for less than this single card it puts into perspective just how expensive it is...
The water block does look nice though and seems to cool very well indeed.
Originally Posted by perplekks45 Apologies for not reading/understanding properly.
In the middle of learning for my final exam for BSc CS. God, how I HATE theoretical CS!
Oh, and I blame it on Cheaps of course.
No worries, good luck and enjoy your long holiday after your final exam!
Long holiday? I wish!
I studied in Germany so I'm 25 by now [yes, we take our time :p] and I really want to work after living in Bath for the last 10 months without proper job thanks to the recession. Well, I already applied for a couple of jobs at the UN here in Vienna, fingers crossed. :)
The temperature seen here is a little on the high side in comparison to what most people actually see on a real watercooled system. The reason is the rather poor radiator space in comparison to what you really need for such a hot part. A quiet system would use 1200rpm fans, then the rule of thumb is that a single 120mm radiator can cool the water to 10C with about 100 Watts of load (90-115 depending on the radiator used).
The GTX 285 is a 185W part, which means really it needs 240mm of radiator to cool it with a quiet fan, and that would halve the delta temperature seen in this review and be more inline with what you would normally get.
Of course a water cooled 4870X2 is great (what I have) but we could do with some prebuilts or companies that have warranties that cover watercooled cards because at the moment if it breaks you are buying a new card (or committing fraud by sending it for RMA).
Originally Posted by BrightCandle The temperature seen here is a little on the high side in comparison to what most people actually see on a real watercooled system. The reason is the rather poor radiator space in comparison to what you really need for such a hot part. A quiet system would use 1200rpm fans, then the rule of thumb is that a single 120mm radiator can cool the water to 10C with about 100 Watts of load (90-115 depending on the radiator used).
The GTX 285 is a 185W part, which means really it needs 240mm of radiator to cool it with a quiet fan, and that would halve the delta temperature seen in this review and be more inline with what you would normally get.
Of course a water cooled 4870X2 is great (what I have) but we could do with some prebuilts or companies that have warranties that cover watercooled cards because at the moment if it breaks you are buying a new card (or committing fraud by sending it for RMA).
We do have a very powerful fan on the radiator - much more powerful than would normally be used so this will compensate as will the fact the lab has some fairly potent air conditioning. The rad itself was barely getting warm so we don't have any doubts that it was in any way over loaded. Agreed though, for a quiet system, a double 120mm rad would be needed.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sparrowhawk What? You're confusing my stoooopid American mind.
delta T is the difference between the ambient air temperature and the temperature reported by the hardware (in this case the difference between the ambient air temperature and the temperature reported in GPU-Z).
If the temperature of the room is hotter when we test one graphics card, then cooler a week later when we test another, clearly the card tested on the cooler day will have an easier ride and the test is also unfair. A way to get around this is to use delta T - in theory if you test the same graphics card in two seperate rooms each with a different ambient temperature, you'll end up with the same delta T. At extreme temperature ranges this might not hold true, but our lab only varies between about 22 and 27 degrees which isn't an issue.
All of the Game benches are won by the ATI HD4870 X2 2GB
The only Application bench (folding at home) is won by Nvidia cards
And in the power consumption part the ATI HD4870 X2 2GB is left out of it. (probably because it has higher power usage then anything else)
IMHO you should have left out the ATI Dualcore card completely, now people will get the wrong idea. Without it Nvidia wins.
Infact you should have left out all the ATI card and other Nvidia cards and only compare the Non watercooled GTX285 to the MSI watercooled GTX285.
If we didn't include the HD 4870X2, it would make for an extremely misleading article. It's in there to demonstrate that for less cash, you can get a significant amount more performance. An HD 4870X2 can be had for less than £250 - thats less than the watercooler GTX 285. Of course, the watercooled card will be quieter and cooler, but if all you want is performance, a reader needs to know what else is out there - that;s why we have all these fancy graph engines and stuff, so show you what else is available!
That's an amazing conclusion. I look at page 13 when the water cooled nvidia card is finally overclocked, and comparing the frames to the 4870x2 results on page 5 for the same game at the same rez and settings, the 4870x2 LOSES, scoring a 44.0, while the GTX285 TAKES THE WIN with 50.7 frames.
LOL
---
It is amazing to me how badly nearly the entire internet is filled with ati red rooster card slant articles. I talk to some of those raving reds sometimes, and what eventually comes out is their intense hatred for NVidia, for some reason they state - one was "hurting the schoolchildren because die substrate on some laptop cards was faulty and NVidia fixed the situaton by replacing the fan with one more powerful." Then the person went on a raving ranting loonfest telling me he would like to beat nvidia reps to death after telling them how to properly do their jobs.
---
It's funny, on the last page - the conclusion in this article, the author whines about the GTX285 not being overclocked out of the box, pretending that someone using water cooling is not inherently an overclocking fanatic, especially with this high end of a card. He babbles on that "if overclocking is your thing you might like this card".... that even as on the same single page showing the massive overclock even the dissing tester got out of it - the author compares it only to itself.
LOL
IT BEAT THE 4870X2 BY QUITE A LOT - all you have to do is look at the info the author provided, but covered up with separation and complaints.
If find the bias and predjudice quite amazing- and it is nearly everywhere.
Why does the article put up the 4890 xxx TOXIC, and a 4870x2, but no overclocked 285 and no 295 ? I know why, we all know why, but then again lying and hating is just the way some people are, always, and they never come clean. What comes next is another pile and bale of total horse crap, no doubt.
ATI has been losing a BILLION a year, every year, while NVidia has made a profit - so don't believe that crap about the smaller ati core making them money, or causing nvidia to collapse.
Those dorks yakking up that red lie never thought for a second the card manufacturers might pay ATI substantially less for the tiny hot core they know costs less to make than the giant hated "brute force" nvidia core. LOL THEY HAVE FLUNKED DAY 1 OF GRADE SCHOOL ECONOMICS as they cheered and jeered stomping around lying for ati.
It's amazing how STUPID the great geeky headed fans are.
Have a nice day - hopefully your eyes were opened a bit.
^ Wow, what a funny read.
I have no idea where you got your impressions from but it'd be nice if you could've put it in nicer words, y'know? I think the guys working for BT & CPC know a tiny bit about what they're writing. But then again, maybe I'm just a "great geeky headed fan" of BT, eh? :p
It doesn't matter what they know, obviously, it's what they don't know or can't realize that is the problem. Begging for niceness after I run into the same crap over and over is a lost cause.
You know "these guys" that work for this pplace ? NO, YOU LIKELY DO NOT.
You're just another, who doesn't give a rats how often you're lied to.
Comments 1 to 25 of 31
ReplyAll of the Game benches are won by the ATI HD4870 X2 2GB
The only Application bench (folding at home) is won by Nvidia cards
And in the power consumption part the ATI HD4870 X2 2GB is left out of it. (probably because it has higher power usage then anything else)
IMHO you should have left out the ATI Dualcore card completely, now people will get the wrong idea. Without it Nvidia wins.
Infact you should have left out all the ATI card and other Nvidia cards and only compare the Non watercooled GTX285 to the MSI watercooled GTX285.
If we didn't include the HD 4870X2, it would make for an extremely misleading article. It's in there to demonstrate that for less cash, you can get a significant amount more performance. An HD 4870X2 can be had for less than £250 - thats less than the watercooler GTX 285. Of course, the watercooled card will be quieter and cooler, but if all you want is performance, a reader needs to know what else is out there - that;s why we have all these fancy graph engines and stuff, so show you what else is available!
Other than that it's nice to see the comparison to other nVidia cards and the 4870X2. It just helps to keep in mind where to rank this one.
Another nice article. Well done. ;)
What?
Why would you possibly want to leave out a card that is cheaper and better? I thought reviews were about comparisons.
One thing I would say about watercooling the ati would be the warranty. I know some vendors support changing the cooler as long as you don't cause any damage doing it, but I am sure this was usually nvidia vendors. So while it may be cheaper, if something goes wrong and they cotton on to your watercooling you may end up spending a LOT more.
EDIT: I also had the same trouble with the G1/4 ports being too close together on my Heatkiller CPU block, Im also using 45degree TFC fittings to fix that.
They tend not to have the time to do all they want, let alone all the stuff that would be considered "fun".
Nope, did mean the GTX 280 - was speaking reference to the RAM that was on the top side of the 280's PCB (some was GPU side, the rest was on the top side and it would get very hot if you didn't use heatsinks when watercooling the card). On the GTX 285 it's all core side so if you have a full cover water-block, all the RAM is water-cooled.
In the middle of learning for my final exam for BSc CS. God, how I HATE theoretical CS!
Oh, and I blame it on Cheaps of course.
The water block does look nice though and seems to cool very well indeed.
No worries, good luck and enjoy your long holiday after your final exam!
I studied in Germany so I'm 25 by now [yes, we take our time :p] and I really want to work after living in Bath for the last 10 months without proper job thanks to the recession. Well, I already applied for a couple of jobs at the UN here in Vienna, fingers crossed. :)
Cheers anyway. ;)
The GTX 285 is a 185W part, which means really it needs 240mm of radiator to cool it with a quiet fan, and that would halve the delta temperature seen in this review and be more inline with what you would normally get.
Of course a water cooled 4870X2 is great (what I have) but we could do with some prebuilts or companies that have warranties that cover watercooled cards because at the moment if it breaks you are buying a new card (or committing fraud by sending it for RMA).
What? You're confusing my stoooopid American mind.
We do have a very powerful fan on the radiator - much more powerful than would normally be used so this will compensate as will the fact the lab has some fairly potent air conditioning. The rad itself was barely getting warm so we don't have any doubts that it was in any way over loaded. Agreed though, for a quiet system, a double 120mm rad would be needed.
delta T is the difference between the ambient air temperature and the temperature reported by the hardware (in this case the difference between the ambient air temperature and the temperature reported in GPU-Z).
If the temperature of the room is hotter when we test one graphics card, then cooler a week later when we test another, clearly the card tested on the cooler day will have an easier ride and the test is also unfair. A way to get around this is to use delta T - in theory if you test the same graphics card in two seperate rooms each with a different ambient temperature, you'll end up with the same delta T. At extreme temperature ranges this might not hold true, but our lab only varies between about 22 and 27 degrees which isn't an issue.
I think they mean that the temp reduced to 19C over ambient then in brackets is the stock cooler performance which would be 56C over ambient
Yuck, red PCB.
what I thought was most interesting was the 4c delta from idle to load. Must be one killer block.
There's the Asus one coming..
That's an amazing conclusion. I look at page 13 when the water cooled nvidia card is finally overclocked, and comparing the frames to the 4870x2 results on page 5 for the same game at the same rez and settings, the 4870x2 LOSES, scoring a 44.0, while the GTX285 TAKES THE WIN with 50.7 frames.
LOL
---
It is amazing to me how badly nearly the entire internet is filled with ati red rooster card slant articles. I talk to some of those raving reds sometimes, and what eventually comes out is their intense hatred for NVidia, for some reason they state - one was "hurting the schoolchildren because die substrate on some laptop cards was faulty and NVidia fixed the situaton by replacing the fan with one more powerful." Then the person went on a raving ranting loonfest telling me he would like to beat nvidia reps to death after telling them how to properly do their jobs.
---
It's funny, on the last page - the conclusion in this article, the author whines about the GTX285 not being overclocked out of the box, pretending that someone using water cooling is not inherently an overclocking fanatic, especially with this high end of a card. He babbles on that "if overclocking is your thing you might like this card".... that even as on the same single page showing the massive overclock even the dissing tester got out of it - the author compares it only to itself.
LOL
IT BEAT THE 4870X2 BY QUITE A LOT - all you have to do is look at the info the author provided, but covered up with separation and complaints.
If find the bias and predjudice quite amazing- and it is nearly everywhere.
Why does the article put up the 4890 xxx TOXIC, and a 4870x2, but no overclocked 285 and no 295 ? I know why, we all know why, but then again lying and hating is just the way some people are, always, and they never come clean. What comes next is another pile and bale of total horse crap, no doubt.
ATI has been losing a BILLION a year, every year, while NVidia has made a profit - so don't believe that crap about the smaller ati core making them money, or causing nvidia to collapse.
Those dorks yakking up that red lie never thought for a second the card manufacturers might pay ATI substantially less for the tiny hot core they know costs less to make than the giant hated "brute force" nvidia core. LOL THEY HAVE FLUNKED DAY 1 OF GRADE SCHOOL ECONOMICS as they cheered and jeered stomping around lying for ati.
It's amazing how STUPID the great geeky headed fans are.
Have a nice day - hopefully your eyes were opened a bit.
I have no idea where you got your impressions from but it'd be nice if you could've put it in nicer words, y'know? I think the guys working for BT & CPC know a tiny bit about what they're writing. But then again, maybe I'm just a "great geeky headed fan" of BT, eh? :p
You know "these guys" that work for this pplace ? NO, YOU LIKELY DO NOT.
You're just another, who doesn't give a rats how often you're lied to.
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