It seems to me that in years past when they launched a new architecture once every 1-2 years and a refresh 6-12 months later, this would have been heralded as a very successfull refresh ... but when they try and launch it as simply another tier it seems a bit weak ?
Does this mean we can expect another 55nm card or two in upcoming months for the more mid-end market or are they likely to leave it as is ?
So, in the end, its not even worth it, 3FPS max diferrence with a standar 280 :S.
Coonsumtion is 5Watts at the most in diference and:
If we going straight to overcloacking.
The 4870 is a huge heat and powr HOGGGGGGGGGGGGGGG.
Look at those charts, it's sucking the life out of the outlet even in idle... it's cranked to the limit on core and the mem must be burning hot as well - it's a heat island that causes global warming - forget the 4870 in any flavor - even the 512 sucks the lifeforce from the electric outlet.
What pennies you save buying it, you will swallow the first month in your electric bill.
It sure looks like the 260 is the way to go if you have a dual pci-e 16x/xxx slot capability.
Everyone yakks about power consumption - time the truth is told about the gigantic fat pig hog the 4870 - power sucking monster of the season.
tank-rider: they had a rough time getting the article finished, so they may add an overclocking section. You can expect it to be roughly proportional to the overclockability of the GTX 280, relative to stock clock speed. That is about as accurate as the reviews here, since they can't garuntee that the samples they recieved from nvidia and partners don't overclock paticularily well.
It may be the fastest single GPU card to date but an GTX280 is still the better buy but I can get CrossFire 4870 for the same price an a GTX280 so I would go for that lol.
The 4850 is hot because the base of the cooler that touches the die is copper, the rest of the base is either iron or aluminium (from the colour of cutting it in half) its just painted copper colour on the outside...
The fins are also aluminium, painted copper colour...not very good for heat dissipation, especially with the fan running at stock.
It has been known for months that the Radeons have too low default fan speeds...
The 4870 is fine, with the fan at 50%.
Its sitting right next to my 8800GTS-320 which can't be used even for folding at home unless I use it as my primary monitor....goodbye physX too unless you are using a nVidia primary display...
Anyway, the new 260-216 does look like the way to go atm, if you set the fan speeds right, like with all of the cards today...
Thank you Tim and fantastic review! You have vindicated my criticisms of substandard ATI drivers! :) Derek Wilson of Anandtech has been also going on for a while about how poor ATI drivers are for Multi GPU but he has been denounced as an ATI hater! Don't worry Tim, the ATI brigade are coming for you too...poor guy
Truly the GTX285 is the fastest card hands down. Multi GPU really should not be considered as competition for Single GPUs and FWIW Nvidia drivers are far better due the TWIMTBP programme.
I have been very happy since I sold off my stuttering POS 4870CF 512 setup for GTX260 216 in SLI. Its all about driver support and Nvidia dominate that sphere and will always get my money! Just my 2 pence ;)
just becoz im not a fan of multi-gpu (either 1 slot or multi-slot), this will be my best bet. had too much issue with SLI and dual-gpu-1-slot cards. just not worth the hassle.
IMHO no point of going 280 if 285 is available, albeit the small difference. becoz its still different and the chipset is different size. and newer, which translates to longer support.
the only issue is value. ill wait till it drop below $350 one day, and ill pick one.
why did nvidia bother with this thing? it seems like a waste of time and money to me. just let the 4870 and GTX280 compete with each other (assuming nvidia puts GTX280's at the same price as 4870's) and start working on the next series of cards or drivers or something. This just sounds like nvidia is saying "hey i got the fastest card now hahahahaha take that"
Originally Posted by dec why did nvidia bother with this thing? it seems like a waste of time and money to me. just let the 4870 and GTX280 compete with each other (assuming nvidia puts GTX280's at the same price as 4870's) and start working on the next series of cards or drivers or something. This just sounds like nvidia is saying "hey i got the fastest card now hahahahaha take that"
It's essentially a 280 with a few tweaks transitioned to an improved manufacturing technology, it may not cost them less to make yet but you can bet it will do when the process is sufficiently matured, at which point it's faster, less power hungry, cooler and more profitable, how could they not do it ?
Originally Posted by dec why did nvidia bother with this thing? it seems like a waste of time and money to me. just let the 4870 and GTX280 compete with each other (assuming nvidia puts GTX280's at the same price as 4870's) and start working on the next series of cards or drivers or something. This just sounds like nvidia is saying "hey i got the fastest card now hahahahaha take that"
4870 1GB competes with GTX260 216sp, GTX280 is already the fastest out there.
i guess they just wanted some publicity, they could perfectly well do a gtx260 65nm->55nm, where they silently switch over with a cleap cooler to make some money.
Originally Posted by SiliconDoc The 4870 is a huge heat and powr HOGGGGGGGGGGGGGGG.
Look at those charts, it's sucking the life out of the outlet even in idle... it's cranked to the limit on core and the mem must be burning hot as well - it's a heat island that causes global warming - forget the 4870 in any flavor - even the 512 sucks the lifeforce from the electric outlet.
What pennies you save buying it, you will swallow the first month in your electric bill.
It sure looks like the 260 is the way to go if you have a dual pci-e 16x/xxx slot capability.
Everyone yakks about power consumption - time the truth is told about the gigantic fat pig hog the 4870 - power sucking monster of the season.
lol looks like the evga fanbois aren't happy.. go back to your pathetic fanboy board doc- maybe you and talonman can have a party in each others mouth
this is just looks like another refresh.. nvidia style.. hey tim what's with the noise you were getting on the oscilloscope.. saw that on your twitter- that's interesting- how does it compare to other cards
Originally Posted by SiliconDoc The 4870 is a huge heat and powr HOGGGGGGGGGGGGGGG.
Look at those charts, it's sucking the life out of the outlet even in idle... it's cranked to the limit on core and the mem must be burning hot as well - it's a heat island that causes global warming - forget the 4870 in any flavor - even the 512 sucks the lifeforce from the electric outlet.
What pennies you save buying it, you will swallow the first month in your electric bill.
It sure looks like the 260 is the way to go if you have a dual pci-e 16x/xxx slot capability.
Everyone yakks about power consumption - time the truth is told about the gigantic fat pig hog the 4870 - power sucking monster of the season.
Wow.Take it easy N-vidio...The 4870 is one great card.I have a 8800 gtx and recently upgraded to a Sapphire Toxic 4870 1 Gig, and i can tell you that for the price, the 4870 is the best card you and anyone can dream of.My card is neither hot nor loud.
As for the drives, i haven't had any problem with the CCC drivers yet and I've been using my card for over two months now .So your talking crappp here.
Thanx to AMD, we can get a respected graphics card for an affordable price now.
For the price of the GTX 285 I don't think I'd get it, the GTX 280 is roughly $90.00 less and offers close to the same performance, that of course it not including some overclockage :D
Maybe I missed it in the article, but why does the actual core have a heat spreader on it? I thought they avoided those on GPUs (when most people don't and aren't supposed to swap out the HS since its a factory job) since chips can get the heat off better without them (silicon -> paste -> metal -> paste -> metal is less efficient than silicon->paste->metal)...
Originally Posted by thehippoz hey tim what's with the noise you were getting on the oscilloscope.. saw that on your twitter- that's interesting- how does it compare to other cards
I'm still working on getting readings from other cards as I spent all of Friday recreating the issue in a completely different environment to my own (it's not just limited to my test systems), but I've run a 280 and a 260-216 and the problems are still there, but not nearly as profound. There's a lot of DC component noise (the delta is about 2V at 4.3KHz, which is pretty high) and there's more than what I'd call typical resonation coming from both of the 6-pin PCIe power connectors.
The resonation is heading straight back up to the power supply and causing it to sing in a rather erratic fashion in some scenarios. I think it's a problem with how the PWMs are switching between modes because the pic I posted on Twitter is actually when the card is switching states (idle/load) - the sound you get out of the PSU is akin to something you'd associate with 'EXTERMINATE!!!1', or that's the easiest way to describe it at the moment.
The problem is that this high frequency noise being pushed back to the PSU could actually cause it to shut down (a poorer quality unit may pop) - at least, that's how the issue on the 280 was discovered originally by some system builders in Eastern Europe. I believe it's an issue with the firmware on the card, but I could be wrong - I'm still waiting for Nvidia to acknowledge that there's a lot of component noise coming from the PCIe power connectors, but they've gone a bit quiet on me since reporting the issue.
Originally Posted by RotoSequence Maybe I missed it in the article, but why does the actual core have a heat spreader on it? I thought they avoided those on GPUs (when most people don't and aren't supposed to swap out the HS since its a factory job) since chips can get the heat off better without them (silicon -> paste -> metal -> paste -> metal is less efficient than silicon->paste->metal)...
The core is huge in simple terms. I reckon it's about 412mm² based on the 576mm² 65nm GT200 and directly shrinking to 55nm, but Nvidia hasn't gotten specific - the heatspreader essentially prevents it from chipping. Bigger pieces of silicon are generally easier to damage, so it's a layer of protection from a heavy-handed enthusiast (like Harry :p).
Firstly, In Grid, the 4870 gets lower fps in this review than in the original 4870 1Gig review.I mean from 78 fps at 1920 res. on max setts to 69.4 fps in this review at the exact same setts and res.While the 280gtx ups from 66 fps to over 70.4 fps in this review.
So what's the deal with this decrease in the performance of the 4870 in Grid?
Secondly,From my personal experience, i can tell you that crossfire doesn't scale in crysis until you hit 1920 res. on max setts with 4x aa.so how did you get X-fire to scale that well at 1680 res.?
And lastly, I wonna thank you for the review.
Originally Posted by konstantine Tim. I have some preservations about the review.
Firstly, In Grid, the 4870 gets lower fps in this review than in the original 4870 1Gig review.I mean from 78 fps at 1920 res. on max setts to 69.4 fps in this review at the exact same setts and res.While the 280gtx ups from 66 fps to over 70.4 fps in this review.
So what's the deal with this decrease in the performance of the 4870 in Grid?
Secondly,From my personal experience, i can tell you that crossfire doesn't scale in crysis until you hit 1920 res. on max setts with 4x aa.so how did you get X-fire to scale that well at 1680 res.?
And lastly, I wonna thank you for the review.
Hey, thanks for signing up to comment! :)
We have started testing GRID with a different track where we found that relative GPU performance scaled much better and is also a lot more consistent. That is probably the reason for the perceived drop in performance. Nvidia has also done quite a bit of work in its drivers between this review and the original 4870 1GB review - release 180 increases performance quite a bit.
With CrossFire, the simple answer is I don't know. The more complex answer is going through the process of getting those numbers. We did a fresh Vista SP1 installation on the test system and cloned the hard drive once we had installed all of our games, save games, test applications and OS updates - we have not installed any graphics card drivers before cloning.
This means that the system is in exactly the same state before testing any graphics card - we literally install a new graphics card (or pair for CrossFire/SLI) and then install the driver. We then reboot, set the resolution, turn Aeroglass on, check that everything is running at the correct settings and then begin running our benchmarks. Each benchmark is run at least three times and the values are checked, double checked and then triple checked to make sure they fall in line with our expectations. If they don't, we'll re-run the tests and hunt out the bugged scores, passing information back and forth with the hardware vendor until we work out the bug (we don't pass our demos onto third parties to stop 'cheating' even though the industry is hopefully past that nowadays).
It's as simple as that. :)
In the past, we had a lot of scaling problems with CrossFire and SLI because we were using a different method to what I've described above (it involved using system restore and removing registry entries for old driver installations), but I'd definitely recommend reinstalling if you go from one to two GPUs. The problems associated with uninstalling/reinstalling drivers disappear as soon as you don't do just that.
Comments 1 to 25 of 26
ReplyDoes this mean we can expect another 55nm card or two in upcoming months for the more mid-end market or are they likely to leave it as is ?
Coonsumtion is 5Watts at the most in diference and:
If we going straight to overcloacking.
EVGA 285 Clocked Edition. : 429.00 USD
Chipset Manufacturer: NVIDIA
Core clock: 702MHz
Stream Processors: 240 processing cores
Memory Clock: 2646MHz
DirectX: DirectX 10
OpenGL: OpenGL 2.1
HDMI: 1 via Adapter
DVI: 2
VS.
ZOTAC Clocked 280 Edition: : 339.00 USD
Chipset Manufacturer: NVIDIA
Core clock: 700MHz
Stream Processors: 240 processing cores
Memory Clock: 2300MHz
DirectX: DirectX 10
OpenGL: OpenGL 2.1
HDMI: 1 via Adapter
DVI: 2
Im getting 2x280's
At least it did not convice me
Look at those charts, it's sucking the life out of the outlet even in idle... it's cranked to the limit on core and the mem must be burning hot as well - it's a heat island that causes global warming - forget the 4870 in any flavor - even the 512 sucks the lifeforce from the electric outlet.
What pennies you save buying it, you will swallow the first month in your electric bill.
It sure looks like the 260 is the way to go if you have a dual pci-e 16x/xxx slot capability.
Everyone yakks about power consumption - time the truth is told about the gigantic fat pig hog the 4870 - power sucking monster of the season.
The fins are also aluminium, painted copper colour...not very good for heat dissipation, especially with the fan running at stock.
It has been known for months that the Radeons have too low default fan speeds...
The 4870 is fine, with the fan at 50%.
Its sitting right next to my 8800GTS-320 which can't be used even for folding at home unless I use it as my primary monitor....goodbye physX too unless you are using a nVidia primary display...
Anyway, the new 260-216 does look like the way to go atm, if you set the fan speeds right, like with all of the cards today...
Truly the GTX285 is the fastest card hands down. Multi GPU really should not be considered as competition for Single GPUs and FWIW Nvidia drivers are far better due the TWIMTBP programme.
I have been very happy since I sold off my stuttering POS 4870CF 512 setup for GTX260 216 in SLI. Its all about driver support and Nvidia dominate that sphere and will always get my money! Just my 2 pence ;)
IMHO no point of going 280 if 285 is available, albeit the small difference. becoz its still different and the chipset is different size. and newer, which translates to longer support.
the only issue is value. ill wait till it drop below $350 one day, and ill pick one.
good card tho.
It's essentially a 280 with a few tweaks transitioned to an improved manufacturing technology, it may not cost them less to make yet but you can bet it will do when the process is sufficiently matured, at which point it's faster, less power hungry, cooler and more profitable, how could they not do it ?
i guess they just wanted some publicity, they could perfectly well do a gtx260 65nm->55nm, where they silently switch over with a cleap cooler to make some money.
And i also don't remember reading about noise levels.
Cheers!
lol looks like the evga fanbois aren't happy.. go back to your pathetic fanboy board doc- maybe you and talonman can have a party in each others mouth
this is just looks like another refresh.. nvidia style.. hey tim what's with the noise you were getting on the oscilloscope.. saw that on your twitter- that's interesting- how does it compare to other cards
Wow.Take it easy N-vidio...The 4870 is one great card.I have a 8800 gtx and recently upgraded to a Sapphire Toxic 4870 1 Gig, and i can tell you that for the price, the 4870 is the best card you and anyone can dream of.My card is neither hot nor loud.
As for the drives, i haven't had any problem with the CCC drivers yet and I've been using my card for over two months now .So your talking crappp here.
Thanx to AMD, we can get a respected graphics card for an affordable price now.
I'm still working on getting readings from other cards as I spent all of Friday recreating the issue in a completely different environment to my own (it's not just limited to my test systems), but I've run a 280 and a 260-216 and the problems are still there, but not nearly as profound. There's a lot of DC component noise (the delta is about 2V at 4.3KHz, which is pretty high) and there's more than what I'd call typical resonation coming from both of the 6-pin PCIe power connectors.
The resonation is heading straight back up to the power supply and causing it to sing in a rather erratic fashion in some scenarios. I think it's a problem with how the PWMs are switching between modes because the pic I posted on Twitter is actually when the card is switching states (idle/load) - the sound you get out of the PSU is akin to something you'd associate with 'EXTERMINATE!!!1', or that's the easiest way to describe it at the moment.
The problem is that this high frequency noise being pushed back to the PSU could actually cause it to shut down (a poorer quality unit may pop) - at least, that's how the issue on the 280 was discovered originally by some system builders in Eastern Europe. I believe it's an issue with the firmware on the card, but I could be wrong - I'm still waiting for Nvidia to acknowledge that there's a lot of component noise coming from the PCIe power connectors, but they've gone a bit quiet on me since reporting the issue.
The core is huge in simple terms. I reckon it's about 412mm² based on the 576mm² 65nm GT200 and directly shrinking to 55nm, but Nvidia hasn't gotten specific - the heatspreader essentially prevents it from chipping. Bigger pieces of silicon are generally easier to damage, so it's a layer of protection from a heavy-handed enthusiast (like Harry :p).
Firstly, In Grid, the 4870 gets lower fps in this review than in the original 4870 1Gig review.I mean from 78 fps at 1920 res. on max setts to 69.4 fps in this review at the exact same setts and res.While the 280gtx ups from 66 fps to over 70.4 fps in this review.
So what's the deal with this decrease in the performance of the 4870 in Grid?
Secondly,From my personal experience, i can tell you that crossfire doesn't scale in crysis until you hit 1920 res. on max setts with 4x aa.so how did you get X-fire to scale that well at 1680 res.?
And lastly, I wonna thank you for the review.
Hey, thanks for signing up to comment! :)
We have started testing GRID with a different track where we found that relative GPU performance scaled much better and is also a lot more consistent. That is probably the reason for the perceived drop in performance. Nvidia has also done quite a bit of work in its drivers between this review and the original 4870 1GB review - release 180 increases performance quite a bit.
With CrossFire, the simple answer is I don't know. The more complex answer is going through the process of getting those numbers. We did a fresh Vista SP1 installation on the test system and cloned the hard drive once we had installed all of our games, save games, test applications and OS updates - we have not installed any graphics card drivers before cloning.
This means that the system is in exactly the same state before testing any graphics card - we literally install a new graphics card (or pair for CrossFire/SLI) and then install the driver. We then reboot, set the resolution, turn Aeroglass on, check that everything is running at the correct settings and then begin running our benchmarks. Each benchmark is run at least three times and the values are checked, double checked and then triple checked to make sure they fall in line with our expectations. If they don't, we'll re-run the tests and hunt out the bugged scores, passing information back and forth with the hardware vendor until we work out the bug (we don't pass our demos onto third parties to stop 'cheating' even though the industry is hopefully past that nowadays).
It's as simple as that. :)
In the past, we had a lot of scaling problems with CrossFire and SLI because we were using a different method to what I've described above (it involved using system restore and removing registry entries for old driver installations), but I'd definitely recommend reinstalling if you go from one to two GPUs. The problems associated with uninstalling/reinstalling drivers disappear as soon as you don't do just that.
Hope this helps,
Tim
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