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Intel Core i7-7700K, Core i5-7600K (Kaby Lake) and Z270 Chipset Review

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Vault-Tec 9th January 2017, 09:35 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gareth Halfacree
My entire desktop cost less than £500. They're having a giraffe.

Aye, maybe they brought in a new designer?

http://i.imgur.com/p7WymAg.jpg

:D
maverik-sg1 9th January 2017, 12:43 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gareth Halfacree
I usually normalise the results to get clock-for-clock comparisons. Looking to see the difference in IPC between a 2.6GHz and a 3.2GHz processor? Divide the result of the 2.6GHz by 2.6 and multiply it by 3.2 (or divide the 3.2GHz result by 3.2 and times by 2.6).

You can do that for a timed benchmark where lower is better?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gareth Halfacree
Naturally, this is better suited to benchmarks that scale linearly with clock speed - but over- or underclocking a CPU to match the clock speed of another model isn't a perfect method of comparison either, 'cos changing the clocks has an impact on the speed of everything. Running the 2.6GHz chip at 3.2GHz will give it faster memory access than running the 3.2GHz chip at stock, all things being equal, which will throw out the results.

Adjusting the multiplier does not effect anything else, surely it's a cpu speed adjustment not a system speed adjustment - your just normalsing the cpu speeds, where access and clock sequence are same parameters for both at same speed.

But it might not be ideal, but it's better than an offset comparison.
Gareth Halfacree 9th January 2017, 13:23 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by maverik-sg1
You can do that for a timed benchmark where lower is better?
Yes you can, you just divide where you had multiplied and multiply where you had divided to reverse the scale: let's assume a 2.3GHz CPU completes the benchmark in 171 seconds. Now let's extrapolate how quickly the benchmark would complete at 3GHz:

(171 * 2.3) / 3 = 131.1

Thus, in theory, the same processor running at 3GHz would complete the benchmark in 131 seconds to the stock clock's 171 seconds. 4GHz? 98 seconds. 5GHz? 79 seconds. And so on, and so forth, again if the benchmark scales linearly and is affected by nothing beyond CPU speed.

EDIT: This is also how manufacturers give you "instructions per clock" and "performance per watt" figures, by the way, which are the 'official' normalised results used for direct comparison between different processors. Let's assume we have a 3GHz processor which draws 95W and gives us 10 teraflops (trillion floating point operations, or instructions, per second). So, that chip's performance per watt is:

10 / 95 = 0.105

105 gigaflops per watt. How about instructions per clock? Easy, though you've got a lot of zeroes here:

10,000,000,000,000 / 3,000,000,000 = 3333.33
simplified:
10,000 / 3 = 3333.33

That's 3333 and a third instructions per clock. Bosh. Normalised results you can directly compare chip-to-chip and totally devoid of clock speed.
Quote:
Originally Posted by maverik-sg1
Adjusting the multiplier does not effect anything else, surely it's a cpu speed adjustment not a system speed adjustment
That's true, but only if that's all you're changing. The minute you touch anything else - voltages, external clock, FSB, whatever - and that goes out the window. Even if you're purely altering the multiplier, you're going to putting two different bins against each other.

Personally, I'm all for the synthetic normalisation: works for any processor, locked or otherwise, and doesn't require any additional time beyond a single benchmark run.
DeckerdBR 9th January 2017, 13:57 Quote
Hmm, so am I to take form all this, that the general view is choosing to upgrade right now would give minimal benefits against the cost (a few new features etc.) but if I was forced to (say due to HW failure), then it would be no bad thing vs. previous generations hardware?
M2r1o 9th January 2017, 14:31 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by DeckerdBR
Hmm, so am I to take form all this, that the general view is choosing to upgrade right now would give minimal benefits against the cost (a few new features etc.) but if I was forced to (say due to HW failure), then it would be no bad thing vs. previous generations hardware?

Exactly what you said.
They're not bad CPU's, it's just that the step up in performance alone from older generations is not worth the investment.
Broadwater06 9th January 2017, 14:46 Quote
Only worth it if you really really really want 4K streaming.
Bindibadgi 9th January 2017, 14:47 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gareth Halfacree
My entire desktop cost less than £500. They're having a giraffe.

You need to turn on the blagging machine there.
Gareth Halfacree 9th January 2017, 14:49 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bindibadgi
You need to turn on the blagging machine there.
I bought, at retail, every single component in my build. I didn't become a journalist for handouts. Or high pay. Or a stress-free life. Or job security. Or employment rights.

Actually... Why the hell did I become a journalist?!
RedFlames 9th January 2017, 14:53 Quote
Seemed like a good idea at the time? Momentary bout of madness?
Bindibadgi 9th January 2017, 14:54 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gareth Halfacree
I bought, at retail, every single component in my build. I didn't become a journalist for handouts. Or high pay. Or a stress-free life. Or job security. Or employment rights.

Actually... Why the hell did I become a journalist?!

Why the hell not? Everyone asks. If something doesn't go back it'll stay for a while, or, "do you have a spare..?" Most things will sit in a draw or the cupboard if they're not on media rotation. They'll never get sent back to Taiwan because shipping fee - it'll be written off. So as long as the agreement is to use it until they ask for it back.
Or if you've got steel balls the size of watermelons, "Does employee discount apply to journalists?" which is so grey area it's almost black, but I have heard before. Not used that one myself but some people got some nice TVs for cheap.

These days I exchange PR writing in the evenings for items from friends in TW industry.
Gareth Halfacree 9th January 2017, 15:01 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bindibadgi
Why the hell not? Everyone asks. If something doesn't go back it'll stay for a while, or, "do you have a spare..?" Or if you've got steel balls the size of watermelons, "Does employee discount apply to journalists?" which is so grey area it's almost black.
Hell no. I have never, and would never, do any of that.

I have a disclosures page where I list companies I've done business with and note that as soon as they give me cash I will no longer review any of their products. Same would go if one of 'em wanted to send me a free SSD or GPU or whatever to use in my rig: that's very kind of you, but now we have a financial relationship and you're on the no-review list.
bawjaws 9th January 2017, 15:18 Quote
Gareth, what happens with stuff like that "build-your-own laptop" you reviewed in this month's Hobbytech? Do you get sent a review sample, build it, and then send it back? That seems a little impractical, but then again so does actually buying one for the purpose of reviewing it - talk about eating into your margins :D I'm just a bit curious as I've no idea how the hardware reviewing business works for stuff like this (and by that I mean one-time-use products rather than stuff that can be sent round multiple reviewers without any change to the physical status of the item).
Gareth Halfacree 9th January 2017, 15:26 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by bawjaws
Gareth, what happens with stuff like that "build-your-own laptop" you reviewed in this month's Hobbytech? Do you get sent a review sample, build it, and then send it back?
The Kano kit, do you mean? That's boxed back up and waiting for a courier as I write this.
Quote:
Originally Posted by bawjaws
I'm just a bit curious as I've no idea how the hardware reviewing business works for stuff like this (and by that I mean one-time-use products rather than stuff that can be sent round multiple reviewers without any change to the physical status of the item).
There's very little I review which is genuinely one-time-use. Any piece of hardware can be, and often is, sent round from reviewer to reviewer - I've had laptops, tablets, and phones where they're still signed in to some poor mug's Google account 'cos they didn't bother to wipe it before returning it and the PRs never checked.

That said, I do have some hardware dotted around here which was provided as a review sample and which has never gone back. That Nextcloud Box, for a start, they didn't want back (mostly 'cos it was a slightly-pre-release model). That's pretty much where I draw the line, morally speaking: requesting a piece of hardware to review it, reviewing it, and then being told I can keep it is, to me, a different thing than asking if I can keep it - or, worse, asking for something for free or at a discount with absolutely no intention of reviewing it. I guess if I was taking a truly hard moral line I'd chuck anything I'd reviewed and was told I could keep in a bin, but I'm no saint!
Harlequin 9th January 2017, 15:28 Quote
how many times do we see review stuff for sale on various forums....
Gareth Halfacree 9th January 2017, 15:32 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by Harlequin
how many times do we see review stuff for sale on various forums....
Aye, and that drives me crackers. There's a reason I asked the mod team to put a ban on the resale of review or commercial samples in the For Sale forum 'ere: I remember we had one member who would negotiate with a company to receive two whatevers, unbox and review (literally just pointing a video camera at it and narrating its features) one while leaving the other boxed, and stick 'em up for sale. Somehow he thought it was morally distinct from saying "hey, company, send me a whatever and £400 and I'll say nice things about it on YouTube."

EDIT: Ooh, that reminds me of a story, actually. A few years ago some SEO outfit got in touch asking me whether I could edit a news piece I'd written on here about something sold by a components specialist - I forget which - to include a link to said component specialist's Canadian storefront. If I did, he promised, I'd get "a box of electronics." The daft thing was the piece was two years' old already - but I guess that doesn't matter to Google's active-links-counter (or didn't, at the time.)

No, I didn't do it. :p
Bindibadgi 9th January 2017, 16:04 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by Harlequin
how many times do we see review stuff for sale on various forums....

You never ever ever do that. You don't support it and give them clicks either. That's beyond bullshit.
You give it back, or chuck it, or give it away for free with the express agreement of manuf.
David 9th January 2017, 16:11 Quote
It has happened on the bit forum - not by bit-tech staff, I hasten to add - people who have reviewed kit elsewhere and chucked it up for sale in the MP - I mailed the mods for clarification on the issue two or three years ago, but I never saw a reply.
LennyRhys 9th January 2017, 18:44 Quote
I often wondered that myself - I remember Tom Logan saying he has a ridiculous amount of stuff from previous reviews because he doesn't give it away.

My current Quickfire XTi was supposedly an ex-review item but it was cheap on ebay (and simply not otherwise available in the UK) so I bit my tongue without really thinking what I was doing. How very frustrating that people who sell review kit are charlatans.

Back on topic: I remember when the Asus Rampage III cost £330 new, and that was considered a helluva lot for a motherboard around 7 years ago... but somehow it was still justifiable, because it was so damned nice.

And now we're expected to pay over £500 for a non-enthusiast segment product? I completely agree they're having a larf.
Bindibadgi 10th January 2017, 06:01 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by LennyRhys
I often wondered that myself - I remember Tom Logan saying he has a ridiculous amount of stuff from previous reviews because he doesn't give it away.

Both bit office and Dennis labs were packed with kit. It was useful to have old kit on hand for reminder/retesting and depending on what you reviewed you were responsible for meticulously caring and protecting it, just in case it did have to go back. If a company got audited ~2 years later you were expected to find it (it did happen). But if you had doubles or knew you'd never ever use it again and it would otherwise just sit there, you made use of use it. There was an unspoken hierarchy among staff - editors got first refusal, then those who had arranged it for review, then those been employed longer, then everyone else in the lower pecking. All our office PCs were built from media samples, simply because we were on effectively zero budget. Tim had this ****ing gigantic dual Xeon Skulltrail rig (because Intel never took anything back) and two 30" monitors (thanks Nvidia) "For graphics testing" but at least I managed motherboards/CPUs/memory testing so I wangled a QX series quad core, board and plenty of mem. You'd have to bend the knee to Tim to get a graphics card off him though.
Cases and PSUs never went back and were freely available and I must admit I changed cases pretty frequently - partly out of interest, partly because I could! We didn't review many LCDs and they went back to manuf, so that was often fought over and when the first SSDs came out we couldn't upgrade as they were also used for testing or went straight back to manuf.
Vault-Tec 10th January 2017, 10:40 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by LennyRhys
I often wondered that myself - I remember Tom Logan saying he has a ridiculous amount of stuff from previous reviews because he doesn't give it away.

He used to sell it. This was years ago though. But he got into hot water because something went wrong (GPU IIRC) and the person he sold it to ignored the "No warranty don't even try" part and tried to send the review sample back to the company who made it.

He does give things away from time to time. Mostly in competitions but if you are doing a build log for example and really need something he has been known to send people stuff :)

I got my AX1200 from him when my PSU failed within a week of buying my new PC and he sent me various cables for my Traid project also :)
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