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BrightSide DR37-P HDR display

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Hamish 4th October 2005, 19:08 Quote
need a replacement for dvi anyway tbh, its pretty crap
the fact that for uber high res screens you need to use 2 dvi ports linked together is just retarded
brightside 4th October 2005, 19:27 Quote
"Shame there are no codecs yet - is that something you're working on as well? Do you think we'll ever see such codecs in Blu-ray or HD-DVD?"


http://www.brightsidetech.com/products/process.php

check it out...

there is also hd-sdi on the nvidia 4000fx card which is 12 bit 4:4:4 i believe
dvi-d dual link has 6 extra pins over single link, and it is 16 bit so it does the job for now anyways.
MitsyForest.com 4th October 2005, 19:47 Quote
Outstanding article.

My question relates to how small can the technology be made? I have an InFocus projector set up in my home theater, which relies upon a fairly small DLP and a uber-bright light to project the image onto the wall. Will/Can this new technique be made small enough to allow me to create a larger than 37" image? If not, does this put us (the consumer) back about 20 years when the first three gun projection TV behemoths we being made and we needed a very large room to hold the box.

The article references technological difficulties of making a display smaller than 18". I will assume that, for now, this is a function of miniturization of the backlight mechanisms. When this gets in the hands of the big guys (Sony, Tosh, Phillips, etc.) can we expect to have large scale nano LEDs to power this beast? If not, and larger is the preferred way to go, then I would expect to see this type of display in wide spread use at sports arenas and stadiums. Perhaps with a few sporting clubs footing the bill, the cost will nosedive faster than a $20 call girl.

Brightside, please go public now, please, pretty please...
Fearless Leader 4th October 2005, 20:58 Quote
That's cool that Brightside has thought ahead to develop JPEG-HDR and MPEG-HDR codecs. I'm assuming these codecs are proprietary. Are these extensions backward compatible with existing JPEG and MPEG (in case a media playback device manufacturer decided not to license Brightside codecs)?
brightside 4th October 2005, 21:21 Quote
"My question relates to how small can the technology be made? I have an InFocus projector set up in my home theater"

The first ever prototype was a projector system, it did not offer the same contrast as the 18 or 37 inch lcd's but still was pretty good.

The technology could be applied to camera's, just have a look at the website. Its certainly scalable, just takes time to redesign.

"Are these extensions backward compatible with existing JPEG and MPEG (in case a media playback device manufacturer decided not to license Brightside codecs)?"

Yes, just as the display supports viewing 'LDR' data, the codecs are backwards compatible with existing jpeg and mpeg formats respectively.
dom_ 4th October 2005, 21:56 Quote
sorry to lower the intellectual tone here, but...

im gonna sell a kidney for one of those bad boys!
_DTM2000_ 4th October 2005, 22:27 Quote
Another excellent article, well done bit-tech.

I'm finally impressed by a new display technology. All the other stuff in between 50Hz CRT and this never really impressed me that much. Even HDTV shared too much in common with older technologies for me but this really is a huge step in the right direction.
The_Pope 5th October 2005, 03:15 Quote
I'm glad the BrightSide boys have dropped in to tackle the super-techie questions - I was beginning to run out of answers ;)
The_Pope 5th October 2005, 06:38 Quote
Moto from The Tech Zone was also there at the demo in Vancouver (he's a local) and managed a really good macro shot of the BrightSide logo:

http://www.thetechzone.com/?m=show&id=384&page=4

This kinda shows what I've been trying to explain: no bloom, just black blacks and pin-sharp contrast.
Nezuji 5th October 2005, 07:34 Quote
I agree with everyone here in that this new technology looks fantastic, and is a very tangible step toward more realistic display systems. And yeah, it's also one of those, "Why didn't I think of it?" ideas :)

The article was also very well written; engaging, easy to read and informative. But I'm not so sure it's quite as unbiased as it professes to be. To be perfectly clear, I'm not suggesting any sort of shady dealings or nefarious plotting on the author's part, just that perhaps their excitement carried them away a bit.

The claim of actually displaying 16-bits-per-channel (as opposed to merely interpreting 16-bit channels to generate the display, which is inarguable) is a bit outrageous, given just how many conditions it is subject to, but I certainly look forward to seeing one in person in the nearish future. I won't hold my breath about being able to afford one, though ;)

Nezuji :)
B3CK 5th October 2005, 09:12 Quote
I thought the article was very easy to understand, and very well presented. I am no expert, but after spending several days a week researching a new monitor for my R.I.P. sony viao trinitron, (which I never noticed that my games kept getting darker, and darker, until I came home and it never sparked again.), I could follow along with everything pretty easily.

However, I do think that there was not enough info on how different the color was presented. I was wondering what the color difference looked like first hand, on one monitor to the HDR one. I would love to experience black on bright white, but I already have a light in the next room to make sure I don't trip over the table on the way to the fridge. I want color definition as well. How soon before we start seeing those formats widely used? Would I absolutely need SLI/crossfire to play BF2 on a decent size? What about a higher refresh LCD, not just brighter? I am not sure if I would pay any more than say 13% - 15% more than the competing high res/high refresh rate monitor just to get darker blacks and brighter whites. With building my own media center pc very soon, I am thinking more and more of replacing the living room tv with a do-it-yourself projector, so that I could not only watch tv, but play a little BF2 before the wife got home but that would also suffer from low refresh rates, and (probably most assuredly), horrible definition.

Also, I would be interested in buying some stock if you went public. Might even get a loan to buy up some stock if I were as jazzed as much as the first hand reviewers
Meanmotion 5th October 2005, 12:50 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by B3CK

However, I do think that there was not enough info on how different the color was presented. I was wondering what the color difference looked like first hand, on one monitor to the HDR one. I would love to experience black on bright white, but I already have a light in the next room to make sure I don't trip over the table on the way to the fridge. I want color definition as well. How soon before we start seeing those formats widely used? Would I absolutely need SLI/crossfire to play BF2 on a decent size? What about a higher refresh LCD, not just brighter? I am not sure if I would pay any more than say 13% - 15% more than the competing high res/high refresh rate monitor just to get darker blacks and brighter whites. With building my own media center pc very soon, I am thinking more and more of replacing the living room tv with a do-it-yourself projector, so that I could not only watch tv, but play a little BF2 before the wife got home but that would also suffer from low refresh rates, and (probably most assuredly), horrible definition.

It appears you've completely missed the point.

1. It's a new technology that's looking to create better images through more sophisticated backlighting (to put it simply). The issue of refresh rate is down to the LCD part of the screen (and thus not really relevant) and colour accuracy is something that will no doubt be refined over the years/months. You gotta give 'em a chance!

2. In it's current form it's obviously more suited to (aimed at?) being used as an alternative TV display so the above issues aren't really an issue.

3. Yes you would need a top of the range graphics card to play on a screen of this size but that's simply because of the resolution. It'd be the same for any hi-res screen. And if you're in the market to get one of these screens in the near future then you can afford a few hundred quid/bucks for the latest and greatest GFX.
erdega79 5th October 2005, 15:57 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hamish
need a replacement for dvi anyway tbh, its pretty crap
the fact that for uber high res screens you need to use 2 dvi ports linked together is just retarded

ATI and NVidia are working on displayport interface to replace DVI which has a lot more bandwidth among other things

http://www.vesa.org/press/displayportaug.htm
HerbCSO 5th October 2005, 17:17 Quote
Excellent article, gets me all hot'n'bothered for HDR to arrive in the consumer space! ;]

2 questions:

1. Did anyone else notice excessive combing artifacts in the videos? Seemed more pronounced to me on the BridgetSide display than in the Westinghouse - is this an issue with the camera recording it having problems or is it noticeable in RL as well? If it's noticeable in RL, is this an issue with the underlying display tech or could algorithms be improved in later production models to reduce this?

2. Color rendition seemed a little off, especially in the LotR scenes - again: camera problems or real? I imagine this can actually be attributed to the camera since it would blow out most of the channels where the highest brightness was, where the color rendition problems looked to be.
stoked 5th October 2005, 21:16 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by brightside
"My question relates to how small can the technology be made? I have an InFocus projector set up in my home theater"

The first ever prototype was a projector system, it did not offer the same contrast as the 18 or 37 inch lcd's but still was pretty good.

I'm also very curious about Brightside technology in the home theatre, specifically front projection. Is this an implementation that brightside is currently pursuing? Also, what kind of contrast did you guys manage to squeeze out of the projector prototype? On displays less than 42" the difference between GOOD SD material from HD material is not tremendous although very noticeable. However, HDR on a 92"+ screen would be astounding.

PS. Do you offer demos to local techies? =D Although, even if you did, I'm not sure I'd want see it in person, it would probably just make me want to upgrade. I'm already getting annoyed with my DLP pj's black levels.
The_Pope 6th October 2005, 02:25 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by HerbCSO
Excellent article, gets me all hot'n'bothered for HDR to arrive in the consumer space! ;]

2 questions:

1. Did anyone else notice excessive combing artifacts in the videos? Seemed more pronounced to me on the BridgetSide display than in the Westinghouse - is this an issue with the camera recording it having problems or is it noticeable in RL as well? If it's noticeable in RL, is this an issue with the underlying display tech or could algorithms be improved in later production models to reduce this?

2. Color rendition seemed a little off, especially in the LotR scenes - again: camera problems or real? I imagine this can actually be attributed to the camera since it would blow out most of the channels where the highest brightness was, where the color rendition problems looked to be.


Welcome to the forums, Herb. You're certainly justified in getting all hot & bothered about this technology - I am too! :D

To answer your questions:

1) Any combing is not visible in the flesh (that I can recall). If you don't know what combing is, it's nasty horizontal lines (see here for an example: http://www.hometheaterhifi.com/volume_10_1/images/dvd-benchmark-guide-to-bad-edit-bl.jpg )

For the image purists, I should spell out the torrid journey the video footage has had before it reaches you.

- rendered in real time on Xbox 360 by Microsoft (I assume)
- edited by Microsoft
- compressed with WMV9 and made available for general download on microsoft.com
- downloaded by BrightSide for demo purposes
- played back on standard PC; identical DVI signal split to both displays
- recorded by me. BIG quality drop not only because it's a DV cam pointed at a screen, but because my HandyCam is LDR not HDR
- ripped via Firewire to my PC for editing
- compressed AGAIN to WMV9

I have just had a quick look at the 25MB version, and I can see why you mentioned something - it's kinda everywhere. HOWEVER, I also checked the 1.4GB raw AVI rip from my DV cam, and that combing doesn't appear once. It appears it is an unfortunate result of either the editing process, or the compression.

Since it's HDR vision captured on an LDR camera and viewed by y'all on LDR monitors, it was always "For Illustrative Purposes Only" but it seems I need to add combing to the list of disclaimers :(

2. Colour Rendition: it depends on what you're objecting to specifically. As explained before, the white blowouts are just my LDR camera having a heart attack. The colours are rich and juicy, and far more vibrant as a result of the increased luminance. Side-by-side, a few things look different, but when you see it first hand, you realise that it's for the better. Big time.

Stoked: Welcome also. Your questions are definitely for the BrightSide boys. I'm not sure they're in a position to have every Home Theatre enthusiast in Vancouver turn up at their office, but they can probably take your contact details and let you know when the next local public demo might be.

Right now, they're focussed on doing deals with the big manufacturers, but they're all nice, friendly Canadians eh, so if you wanted one for $49k next week, I'm sure they'd take your call :D
Tim S 6th October 2005, 02:31 Quote
I saw this today in the flesh today, I'm speechless.

I need one of these in my living room and also one in my office too :D
metarinka 6th October 2005, 08:28 Quote
I like this, this seems like a next step. It seems like there might be HUGE issues with burn in, as I could see a bunch of white led's shinning 24/7 on the back of the lcd causing issues.

Also it seems like it could be done with other off the shelf technology, like a modern rear projection tv, just with an extra 4th white light channel that would enter the prism and control the overall brightness (seems it would be easier to do this on a per pixel level.) More wastefully you could use 2 standard digital projectors with a propably stock rear projection screen (they had one in the conference room at my Uni) Have the rear projector control the 4th channel, and the front display the color.

or even more unconventional have a standard off the shelf lcd panel but house it in an off the shelf rear projection unit and have the 4th channel in the back controlling brightness. (it almost seems like you could do this today using all off the shelf components, and although not as bright you could use the 3 electron guns to make white light. Alternatively you could use a DLP chip to say cast a xenon bulb)

This technology is very interesting but it seems to me there would be ways to make it per pixel or a smaller array then they are attempting. I think the point to where we get high yields and Effecient white led's is still a little ways off. but it seems the core concept of selectively applying the backlighting could be achieved in more conventional ways.

Any thoughts? Am I missing some fundemental technology barriers?
Hwulex 6th October 2005, 11:10 Quote
Brilliant article guys, really really well done. As well as being pant-wettingly exciting new technology (I've started saving already), it also explained all the HDR stuff that I haven't bothered reading about up till now. Kudos.
Constructacon 6th October 2005, 13:21 Quote
Let me add my awe to the pile collecting. Brilliant use of combining existing technologies in a way no one ever thought of before. It's so simple it's incredible.

Props to Geoff for a really well written article. Usually I stay away from heavy tech articles unless I'm in the mood, but this was informative and easy to read.

I for one will be buying one of these in a few years time when they become readily available over here.
mclean007 6th October 2005, 13:28 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by metarinka
It seems like there might be HUGE issues with burn in, as I could see a bunch of white led's shinning 24/7 on the back of the lcd causing issues.
I don't think so - the whole point is the LEDs don't shine 24/7 onto the back of the LCD. They only shine when needed to, and only brightly enough to produce the desired image. Say you had a PC where the screensaver was a black screen, but the power saving on the monitor never came into effect, with a regular LCD the backlight would still be burning into the back of the LCD at full pelt. On the HDR display, the backlight would be at zero brightness when displaying a pure black image, so the LCD panel wouldn't suffer. As such, I'd say you'll probably get BETTER life out of an HDR panel than a regular one, assuming the same usage pattern and assuming the LCD panels themselves start out the same.

In any event, I thought LCD burn-in wasn't really much of an issue with the newer panels? I wouldn't know as I haven't got one!
Da_Rude_Baboon 6th October 2005, 13:56 Quote
I was under the impression that burn in was non existent in LCD's as they are a non emmisive display technology? :?
Sathy 6th October 2005, 15:32 Quote
I'm also very impressed by this new technology and can't wait to see it in the consumer market!

Also the article was VERY well written, understandable and still had a lot of detailed information! Haven't read anything as interesting in a while now.
metarinka 6th October 2005, 16:21 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by mclean007
I don't think so - the whole point is the LEDs don't shine 24/7 onto the back of the LCD. They only shine when needed to, and only brightly enough to produce the desired image.
In any event, I thought LCD burn-in wasn't really much of an issue with the newer panels? I wouldn't know as I haven't got one!

I'm talking about the type of burn in you see on plasma screens when you say leave the lcd on cnn all day and the tickers or channel logo's get burned into a corner. Also as with all LED's don't they start getting dimmer after so many hours, I know their half life is really long but what about their uhh 9/10's life? I have a feeling you could get into issues of uneven backlighting after soo many hours.

sorry I'm not trying to be a wet blanket here, I'm very eager for this technology

any one give any thought to the rear projection housing idea? using a dlp chip in a rear projection housing to control the 4th channel to get per pixel selective backlighting? It does seem feasibly possible with off the shelf parts from today's technology
mclean007 6th October 2005, 16:43 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by metarinka
any one give any thought to the rear projection housing idea? using a dlp chip in a rear projection housing to control the 4th channel to get per pixel selective backlighting? It does seem feasibly possible with off the shelf parts from today's technology
Quite possible, but (1) Brightside apparently have a patent on ALL forms of adjustable backlight so you'd need them to license it to you if you wanted to have a crack at commercialising a product using a dlp chip in a rear projection housing to provide selective per-pixel backlighting for an LCD, and (2) why go to the expense of a great big flat LCD panel if you're then going to dirty it with a big ol' backbox to provide the backlighting?!? Brightside's solution provides the HDR capabilities and remains (relatively) flat.
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