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BrightSide DR37-P HDR display

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Mattt 3rd October 2005, 20:15 Quote
very cool technology.

been reading up about SED lately and that looked realy cool, but this totaly blows SED away because of the comparitive simplicity of it.

very well written artical btw, and like the inclusion of vids, you guys been doing that a fair amount recently, I for one think its a good idea.
Rocket733 3rd October 2005, 21:42 Quote
Great article, excellent job of simplifying the science to an understandable level and keeping it from interfering with the subject of the article. BTW if you ever need someone to review one... :P
Boon 3rd October 2005, 22:29 Quote
Great article and it's good to see there are active developments to improve LCD tech. I don't know if I'm alone but I can't stand the Grey Black. Now in 90% of the situations I use my 2405 works fine but I simply couldn't play Doom3 as the poor blacks were clearly visible and ruined the experience. I hope FEAR fare's better.
stephen2002 3rd October 2005, 22:58 Quote
Great article. I can see where this kind of display would really make a difference in applications that have a lot of contrast, or must be displayed in a dark room. However once you have any ambient light in the room it becomes not very important. If there is light on in the room there isn't a very big difference between off and black on my LCD becasuse of the light bouncing off of it.
NoMercy 3rd October 2005, 23:03 Quote
Damn damn damn damn why didn't I think of that... I do hope they do well with there product and there licencing. *writes to santa wishing for a new display*
keir 3rd October 2005, 23:36 Quote
wow wow wow, very cool.
I think its pretty cool tbh, but the price what the fork?
RTT 4th October 2005, 00:22 Quote
Wait a sec - i just watched the vid through my LDR TFT, how can i possibly see the tech & improvements? :p :D
Tim S 4th October 2005, 00:47 Quote
I've just done some comparisons of my own to see just how 'dark' dark is... I've got two Dell 1705FPTs side by side, so I've taken pictures with the light on and the light off. My monitors are set up correctly and are pretty dark: brightness 20, contrast 40. The one on the left is turned off, while the one on the right has a completely blank screen.

http://staff.bit-tech.net/tim/blackblack-lightoff.jpg

http://staff.bit-tech.net/tim/blackblack-lighton.jpg

I'm pretty impressed tbh.
Marquee 4th October 2005, 02:12 Quote
I love the review. OMG were the chart is jokes, give contrast ratio and so on, then price. $49,000. I almost craped my pants. $49,000 for a true realistc display. LOL

I can imagin reading this in the future and saying OMG the first HDR displays were $50Gs, LOL
will. 4th October 2005, 02:21 Quote
If these displays were hypothetically available right now for your PC would they remove the need for HDR in games. From what I can see they actually create the effect using physical hardware and actual light instead of software and virtual light sources, like Half Life 2.
Firehed 4th October 2005, 04:10 Quote
Oh, missed that bit. Good for them in that case. As long as they don't make it exclusive to one mfr., it's good with me.

And I'd bet that $49k will drop substantially.

Now, do correct me if I'm wrong, but I think I read something like it'll use 48-bit color precision to better achieve the HDR lighting, not just "brights are brighter, darks are darker". Wouldn't games actually need to support that? Or am I way off-base and just too wet from my own drool to really get what you said in the article (or at risk of killing my keyboard if I try and reread it thanks to said drool)?
thecrownles 4th October 2005, 04:38 Quote
When does brightside go public so I can buy their stock?
Migishu 4th October 2005, 04:44 Quote
I don't know if this has been asked or not, but still:

Were there any problems with glaring at all? With those videos I could barely read the text/see the sky images (though that might have to do more with the camcorder than anything), was the text easily readable as it was on the HDTV?

Still though, very very sexy :)
automagsrock 4th October 2005, 05:02 Quote
Very good read. I learned quite a bit of information.

BTW, can some one send me a copy of tha ninja background, that thing was sweet. The URL could not be found when I clicked on it :'(
The_Pope 4th October 2005, 06:02 Quote
I want to congratulate you guys. It's really encouraging to see that you have clearly read the full article, thought about it, and had intelligent questions to ask. As has been shown elsewhere, it's far to easy to skim read it and make pointless, misleading, sarcastic comments. But then, I always knew you lot were special :)

Let me try and answer as many questions as I can, in reverse order:


automagsrock:
http://www.little-gamers.com/hamham_downloads.php

Migishu:
any problems had in reading anything are indeed down to the fact that a standard LDR camera (video or still) cannot even pretend to handle the amount of luminance, and so just whites out in desperation.

It does take a little getting used to, but worth remembering is that this is LDR content on an HDR screen, so it's having to interpolate brightness. Once we start seeing native HDR content, the artists will exercise more control I'm sure.

the crownles:
I don't know what plans BrightSide have for going public, but I know there are several private investors involved already. I'm sure they'd be interested to hear from you if you were serious about investing.

Firehed
: as mentioned, they are planning to do licensing deals with as many major manufacturers as show an interest. Considering this technology is streets ahead of everything else, while allowing the manufacturers to use their existing LCD plants to pump out screens, it's hard to imagine anybody passing up the opportunity.

The 48-bit colour stuff is a little vague for now, because certain graphics card makers have certain stuff still under NDA for a little longer, but you will see more info soon enough. But yes - it not only increases the dynamic range black / white, but gives a truckload of additional shades in between.

Developers were reluctant to comment, again, because certain things are still under NDA, but my understanding is that for stuff like what we've seen in Lost Coast, one wouldn't need to simulate bloom in software - you would just make the sun really bright, and let the display / our eyes do the rest. Since these displays are maybe a year or more away from being available at vaguely sensible prices, we've got time to figure that one out.
andyf 4th October 2005, 11:22 Quote
I'm curious about something which I'm not sure has been answered in the article / forum posts.

Let's take a look at the demonstration with the HDTV and the BrightSide display side by side, with the white rectangle.

The BrightSide display shows the brilliant white rectangle, along with a big, noticable bloom effect.

From what I understand, this bloom is by design, it is how the technology works.

If so, I can't see this technology doing too well for computer artists. Imagine a composition where they need a bright white image surrounded by darkness, just like in the white rectangle example. The bloom effect will cause a problem here because it will be 'bleeding' HDR bloom into the dark area. What if you do actually want something very bright surrounding perfectly by darkness?
The_Pope 4th October 2005, 11:58 Quote
Welcome to the forums andy.

Bear in mind that the bloom technically isn't there. The camera creates it, and to a certain extend, the human eye does too, but the white rectangles are identical. The solution to your question is to simply dial down the brightness in the rectangle. Just because the display can do 4000 cd/m2 doesn't mean you have to use it. You have 8-bits of brightness data per pixel, so just throttle it back to maybe 1000 cd/m2 and you'll still be twice as bright as the regular HDTV, as well as having killer 0 cd/m2 blacks vs "grey".
Quote:
The bloom effect will cause a problem here because it will be 'bleeding' HDR bloom into the dark area. What if you do actually want something very bright surrounding perfectly by darkness?

That isn't possible - when you have areas of such a huge contrast bordering each other, the human eye does the rest. However, for example, the BrightSide logo test - that doesn't suffer from the bloom when you see it first hand:

http://www.bit-tech.net/content_images/brightside_hdr_edr/03.jpg

I know the camera messes it up here, but trust me - when you see it up close, it's just the clearest, sharpest image you've ever seen. No bloom, just pin sharp. As I said in the article, if you didn't know you were looking at an LCD display, you'd swear it was a painted shop sign with a bright neon backlight. Like a very well-made transparency on a lightbox or something...
Meanmotion 4th October 2005, 13:12 Quote
Would I be right in thinking that this technology wouldn't have been possible with CCFLs because you can't change their brightness quick enough? Obviously it wouldn't be as good anyway but it strikes me as an obvious step if it were possible? And now brightside got exclusive rights to the dynamic lighting technology in any form - ouch! The innovations team at Toshiba, Sharp, Samsung, etc, must be absolutely kicking themselves.

It'll be fascinating to see how usable it is as a computer display for desktop work etc.
The_Pope 4th October 2005, 14:37 Quote
It did cross my mind when I was in Vancouver - you wouldn't be able to control the backlight in different areas of the screen, but the image quality isn't SO bad when the backlight is uniformly high / low depending on the screen.

However, BrightSide have the patent on the dynamic adjustment, so at the very least, a royalty would likely be due.

You raise an interesting point about the response time of a CCFL - I very much doubt it comes anywhere near that of the LEDs used. Plus, even if it could, you would still be stuck with a peak brightness of only 500 cd/m2, which ain't all that bright. You could never extract 4000 cd/m2 from a CCFL.

For those who think this patent / licensing thing is a big deal, just remember that similar deals have existed for years: think Dolby; think Philips - the inventor of the CD... any major innovation is the byproduct of some major R&D investment, and that investment is protected by patents, and slowly repaid through royalties.

There's nothing evil about it - everyone I met at BrightSide was very friendly and approachable, so while the major players might well be disappointed they aren't the rights holders, neither have their had to spend time / money developing & perfecting the technology. All they have to do is agree licensing terms and off they go really - all the hard work done for them :)

Since royalties are normally a percent, or flat-fee per unit sold, the fact that this IMLED technology is going to help them sell a boat load of displays, sharing a few dollars per unit isn't going to bother them I'm sure. :)
Fearless Leader 4th October 2005, 15:47 Quote
I definitely like what I see, and I'm sure filmmakers/special effects artists will also appreciate the accuracy of these displays.

The article mention LDR on conventional DVDs.

Is the data on current DVDs consider LDR just because of the resolution or just because of the color data that is encoded? If it has nothing to do with resolution and just the color data encoded on the disc, do the HD-DVD/Blu-ray formats (MPEG-4, H.264, or VC-1 codecs) allow for the encoding of HDR data?

It seems a waste for companies to already be preparing these next-generation optical formats that won't take full advantage of these new displays.
Migishu 4th October 2005, 16:31 Quote
Thank you for your continuing responce The Pope, I eagerly await this sexy new technology :)
Asphix 4th October 2005, 17:06 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fearless Leader
I definitely like what I see, and I'm sure filmmakers/special effects artists will also appreciate the accuracy of these displays.

The article mention LDR on conventional DVDs.

Is the data on current DVDs consider LDR just because of the resolution or just because of the color data that is encoded? If it has nothing to do with resolution and just the color data encoded on the disc, do the HD-DVD/Blu-ray formats (MPEG-4, H.264, or VC-1 codecs) allow for the encoding of HDR data?

It seems a waste for companies to already be preparing these next-generation optical formats that won't take full advantage of these new displays.

I think it would be safe to assume (and correct me if i'm wrong) that its not only the encoding but also the fact that the color information isnt there to begin with. This is due to cameras only being able to capture video/images in LDR.

As for the encoding of HD-DVD/blu-ray.. great question. I'd like to hear that one myself. If the encoding doesnt support a HDR color range that could be interesting. Of course, somethign like that could always be updated in the future using a firmware update. But to do that, there would need to be some sort of connection on the DVD player to uplink it to a network and what not. Possible, but unsure how the next gen dvdplayers will be equipped.
mclean007 4th October 2005, 17:14 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by Asphix
I think it would be safe to assume (and correct me if i'm wrong) that its not only the encoding but also the fact that the color information isnt there to begin with. This is due to cameras only being able to capture video/images in LDR.

As for the encoding of HD-DVD/blu-ray.. great question. I'd like to hear that one myself. If the encoding doesnt support a HDR color range that could be interesting. Of course, somethign like that could always be updated in the future using a firmware update. But to do that, there would need to be some sort of connection on the DVD player to uplink it to a network and what not. Possible, but unsure how the next gen dvdplayers will be equipped.
It's not the players you have to worry about so much as the formats themselves - if HD-DVD and Blu-Ray don't specify a standard for encoding HDR picture information, then we won't get any, and it will be interpolation all the way until the next-next-gen of disc formats comes along. Of course if either Sony or Toshiba can pull off true HDR content, that could be a serious boon in the high-def DVD format war!

I suspect the first true HDR sources will be the next gen of GPUs from NVidia and ATi, so those of us with pockets full of gold can look forward to playing future games on our GeForce 8800 GTX / ATi 2800(?) in true HDR. I for one can't wait to have my socks well and truly blasted off.

Two further concerns:
(1) Will the DVI standard cope with HDR output from GFX cards? If not, are we going to need a whole new connection standard?
(2) How is this going to impact on game engines? If the hardware creates a 'true' bloom effect around bright objects, for example, surely the engine needs to know that an HDR display is connected and turn off the artificial bloom it produces for LDR displays? bigz?
brightside 4th October 2005, 17:50 Quote
Very good article, one the most comprehensive and well thoughtout explanations of our technology i've come across.


The display looks even better compared to the normal LCD's in light.

Todays gfx cards do everything in floating point 16 bit or more, this gives us the ability to do stuff in HDR.

3dlabs and other manufacturers have products available to send more than 8 bits to a display using dual link dvi. Single link is only 8 bits.

HD-DVD's are just higher resolution and bitrate encoded movies. There is no codec available to play higher bitdepth movies, for now anyways :P
mclean007 4th October 2005, 17:57 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by brightside
Very good article, one the most comprehensive and well thoughtout explanations of our technology i've come across.


The display looks even better compared to the normal LCD's in light.

Todays gfx cards do everything in floating point 16 bit or more, this gives us the ability to do stuff in HDR.

3dlabs, ati and other manufacturers have products available to send more than 8 bits to a display using dual link dvi. Single link is only 8 bits.

HD-DVD's are just higher resolution and bitrate encoded movies. There is no codec available to play higher bitdepth movies, for now anyways :P
Let me be the one to welcome you to the forums - it's an honour that you dropped by. As you'll see from the reams of positive comments above, we're all pretty fired up about this new display technology! I for one will be following your progress with interest. Thanks for the clarification on DVI and HDR codecs. Shame there are no codecs yet - is that something you're working on as well? Do you think we'll ever see such codecs in Blu-ray or HD-DVD?
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