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Shuttle SN25P

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Pezboy 13th June 2005, 11:04 Quote
Quote:
You can't deny it's better than the old G styling, the look is more refined and everything is clean and stealthed behind shiny plastic covers.


I can and will. The G5 is the hottest looking chassis they've made to date. "Shiny plastic" is the reason we like Coolermaster cases over the $20, finger-slicing generic piles of crap. The brushed aluminum fascia on the front plate is far superior to shiny plastic.

I also take issue with "runs like a little oven." I haven't used the 25P, but I get temperatures in the 35-45C range with room temp at 23-25C, 45 only on load. The 92mm fan in my G5 has a lot to do with that, but even in my 45G4 they were 40-50C.

Sorry if I sound like a raving lunatic, but I think the P chassis was a step backwards and is far outclassed by the G5.
Tim S 13th June 2005, 11:45 Quote
The chassis design is all a matter of personal preference. Both the G5 and P series chassis are nice in my opinion, and it is down to personal preference as to which suits you best. :)
Hiren 13th June 2005, 11:54 Quote
I own a G chassis and have recently been building a computer in the P series and have to agree Pezboy. The P series is highly annoying and more difficult to build in. It's definity a step backwards imo.
Bindibadgi 13th June 2005, 12:22 Quote
Hmm, i agree about the brush alu G5s, they are really really nice but the Gs are MORE of an oven than the Ps which have a FAR superior thermal design and your harddisks are less likely to die because they have a dedicated airflow and are in the top of the case making them easier to remove. Like all new cases youve got to get used to building it a few times to see how it all works.
Admittidly it's probably ever-so-slightly too large but it's still SFF, and the pics never seem to do it justice, youve got to use one for a while to appreciate it more as it definately grows on you. It's not one of those "OMFG need it NOW!" kinda things.

Remember, the G styling has had 5 revisions and the P is in it's first. A brushed alu cover to the P will make it much nicer.
Also the P interior is suprimely superior to the G in every way: 350W PSU that doesnt get in the way and better thermals etc. They could have made the ICE unit bigger though and put in a much needed PCI slot.
IronFire 13th June 2005, 12:27 Quote
"but others might have more luck with higher rated ram and more labile CPUs"

"We lowered the CPUs mulitplier to ensure "
Bindibadgi 13th June 2005, 13:54 Quote
what's wrong with labile?

multiplier is just a typo :o
IronFire 13th June 2005, 14:14 Quote
Just seems to be a strange word choice to refer to a CPU.
RotoSequence 13th June 2005, 15:12 Quote
Perhaps its the english teachers at my school who are getting to me with this comment...
Your liberal use of the word style and its various other forms makes me want to reword parts with the word aesthetics, or at least phrase things differently to take out the word; repetition of the same word referring to the same thing makes the reading very monotonous, and a bit more boring than if you rephrased lines to remove the word style.

Other than that, nice review Bindi; Id love to get one if only it could overclock-and if I had cash to spend on such things :p
Da Dego 13th June 2005, 15:47 Quote
Do you guys like your shuttles? I'm curious because the next computer I do, I might take the plunge. The only issue is that I love to OC, aside from that I don't see any reason that I couldn't go for a shuttle.
Hiren 13th June 2005, 15:50 Quote
Agree with Bindi's point about airflow. I just hate the sheer amount of clips the P series uses.

Da Dego - I love mine, oc's nicely, small and convient.
Shepps 13th June 2005, 17:33 Quote
At least it doesn't have a stupid thermal design like the SN85G4 v1. hot air from the psu blowing over the I.C.E unit, nice one shuttle! I like shuttles, but i hate my SN85G4v1. Just wish i had the money to ditch this one and get one that wont melt down if i leave the case on.

The ST20G5 is going to replace my shuttle when i can afford it. tri monitor, mmmmm.
Bindibadgi 13th June 2005, 17:34 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by RotoSequence
Perhaps its the english teachers at my school who are getting to me with this comment...
Your liberal use of the word style and its various other forms makes me want to reword parts with the word aesthetics, or at least phrase things differently to take out the word; repetition of the same word referring to the same thing makes the reading very monotonous, and a bit more boring than if you rephrased lines to remove the word style.

Other than that, nice review Bindi; Id love to get one if only it could overclock-and if I had cash to spend on such things :p

That's the joy of choice of where you read reviews. If you dont like my own british english style then there are many other sites to cater to your tastes
I get what you mean about reptition but it goes through 2 editors, stuff is swapped around and there's litterally only a certain amount of times you can say the same thing "it's fast" "it's nice" blah blah :|
Da Dego 13th June 2005, 18:33 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bindibadgi
That's the joy of choice of where you read reviews. If you dont like my own british english style then there are many other sites to cater to your tastes :P
I get what you mean about reptition but it goes through 2 editors, stuff is swapped around and there's litterally only a certain amount of times you can say the same thing "it's fast" "it's nice" blah blah :|

Hmmm...someone woke up on the wrong side of the bed (or hasn't gone yet). :) Bindi, was that really necessary? :) That was only constructive criticism...not like he was ripping your review apart!
Firehed 13th June 2005, 18:39 Quote
What timing, I was just looking into getting one.

Basically the same results I've read elsewhere. Others had better luck overclocking, but oh well. I'm looking for media center, not powerhouse.

I've also heard conflicting things about the chipset. I've read NF4 ultra and non-ultra. Even amongst the review sites I've had split results, and customer reviews at newegg show the same thing. One guy said that an updated bios (and a call to shuttle) showed it as an NF4 Ultra, but I'm really not sure.

Also, you guys wouldn't know what socket heatsink mounting that is (it wasn't pictured, but I've seen it elsewhere). I know it doesn't use A64... it it LGA775? Watercooling ponderings, for what it's worth :D
Bindibadgi 13th June 2005, 19:14 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by Da Dego
Hmmm...someone woke up on the wrong side of the bed (or hasn't gone yet). :) Bindi, was that really necessary? :) That was only constructive criticism...not like he was ripping your review apart!

No no no no. I was merely explaining that there is a variety of editorial wealth out there to suit everyones tastes, not having a go. Roto knows what i mean, yea, aiiight ;)




Fire:
http://www.bindibadgi.co.uk/NA/SN25P-ICE.jpg
Best ive got, it's a custom shuttle size. LGA is square.
Shepps 13th June 2005, 19:17 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by Firehed
I've also heard conflicting things about the chipset. I've read NF4 ultra and non-ultra. Even amongst the review sites I've had split results, and customer reviews at newegg show the same thing. One guy said that an updated bios (and a call to shuttle) showed it as an NF4 Ultra, but I'm really not sure.

Its listed on the shuttle products page as having - Chipset: NVIDIA nForce4 Ultra MCP. But in the product info, it simply says NVIDIA nForce™4 MCP. Bindi?
Bindibadgi 13th June 2005, 19:22 Quote
In the guff we got with it it was specficially listed as an nForce 4 MCP like in your product info and ACHI options werent clearly labelled in the BIOS revision we had so i dunno. Iirc the front of the box didnt even have the ultra labelling either.
I cant check either cause the unit has been passed on, sorry.

Maybe nvidia lowered the price of the ultra chipsets so shuttle upgraded the spec and some people got ultras to review and others standard??
Firehed 13th June 2005, 19:34 Quote
Plop in a SATA-II HDD and see what it says for transfer mode?

Gah, custom waterblock mounting I guess. Unless it's 478 or Xeon. I could have sworn it looked dead square in another review I read (I read at least 6 last night), but the one at amdzone I just checked (read:first google result) definately put it a bit more rectangular than I thought.

Ok WTF?
http://global.shuttle.com/Product/Barebone/SN25P.asp
"NVIDIA nForce™4 MCP"
"(4) Serial ATA 300 headers"
and the two-page spec sheet pdf says "hardware firewall"
soo confused!

http://www.hardocp.com/image.html?image=MTExMzk2NDk5MG9PZkJpa2lRbjNfMV8xN19sLmpwZw==
definately rectangular, but hard to tell if it's actually custom or just some other socket.
Bindibadgi 13th June 2005, 19:49 Quote
You cant just pop in a SATA2 harddisk, you first have to enable ACHI in the BIOS and reinstall windows with ACHI enabled. If you try to use an ACHI harddisk in a non ACHI system windows will BSOD on boot and visa versa.

I dont think ANY shuttles are "standard" since they employ their own ICE unit as a complete solution. You might as well buy it and work out the rest later ;) you're gonna need to use some screwdown thing unless you dremel off the screw threads from the chassis underneath the mobo.

Iirc, nvidia has a standard hardware firewall, but lacks the activearmour in the non-ultra version. I think.
Tim S 13th June 2005, 21:09 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bindibadgi
Iirc, nvidia has a standard hardware firewall, but lacks the activearmour in the non-ultra version. I think.
http://www.bit-tech.net/hardware/2005/05/16/nvidia_sli_pt1/1.html

;)
Bindibadgi 13th June 2005, 21:43 Quote
muahaha i was right :D:D I coulda checked earlier i spose its just in efing lazy. :D
Firehed 13th June 2005, 22:32 Quote
I thought activearmor was just the software component that lets you configure the hardware bit, like the gui in a router. I know the version that came on my CD was POS and quite unstable (although I think newer releases are better), and as I have a router for hardware firewall, I'm not worried.

And what exactly does ACHI do? From my short bit of research, it's sounds like it's just a standard controller that includes all the SATA-II features (many of which are on SATA-I drives as well, most notably NCQ)
woodshop 13th June 2005, 22:39 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bindibadgi
You cant just pop in a SATA2 harddisk, you first have to enable ACHI in the BIOS and reinstall windows with ACHI enabled. If you try to use an ACHI harddisk in a non ACHI system windows will BSOD on boot and visa versa.

Windows will do that @ randome intervials anyways.

But as for the shuttly it's such an expensive I want toy..
Bindibadgi 14th June 2005, 01:37 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by Firehed
I thought activearmor was just the software component that lets you configure the hardware bit, like the gui in a router. I know the version that came on my CD was POS and quite unstable (although I think newer releases are better), and as I have a router for hardware firewall, I'm not worried.

And what exactly does ACHI do? From my short bit of research, it's sounds like it's just a standard controller that includes all the SATA-II features (many of which are on SATA-I drives as well, most notably NCQ)

Well that was the front end to it and as you say a lot of routers have firewalls in them but the NVIDIA one is, imo, far more customisable and they intend NVIDIA chipsets to be used as workstation/servers and media hubs for the house or office. Even though a router has a hardware firewall a lot of people run stuff like zonealarm too, it just lowers cpu useage by making it hardware.

ACHI is advanced controller host interface - it's what you've read it is - SATA 1.0a+ spec for NCQ etc that needs to be enabled in the BIOS before installing windows and XP requires and F6+floppy with drivers to recognise disks on it, otherwise disks will run in the basic, legacy SATA 1.0 spec.

Windows doesnt BSOD unless you piss it off, it's like a lot of things in life ;)

Shuttles are expensive, but they are more than just a case or a motherboard. I bet people spend a similar amount on a shuttle than they do on a case, mobo, decent psu, cables etcetc although the SN25P is one of the most expensive like a lot of the P chassis.
Firehed 14th June 2005, 03:04 Quote
Yeah, the price of a potential system went up when seeing this thing. And that kicked out a Gigabyte SLI board (cheap one mind you, like $139, but what could I say, it was like $6 more than the NF4 Ultra variant so can't go wrong), cheap case, $85 Antec PSU (probably OTT for what would go in there - 3000+, 6600GT, DVDRW and a few hdds) and would make the watercooling I'd like to run at some point a lot trickier. But you can't beat a tiny box for a media center (granted, I'm still looking for a Theatre550 tuner on PCIE, I think it was Hexus that had a shot of one back when it was first introduced, but it's more important now that there'd only be an x1 slot for expansion without going external USB).

Comes out to be like $70 more using the SN25P than the other one. The TV tuner isn't even included in the SFF one, but it was in the "standard" setup. Luckily I already have a GPU and will probably take my current 3000+ for that if/when I get an X2 4400+ :D

But Bindi, should I bother noting that you can turn NCQ on in windows? AFAIK that's the only big difference between SATA-II and SATA-I other than of course twice the bandwidth. Or is there more to it than that (and if so, would it actually do anything)?

And for me, windows will BSOD randomly once and a while. I think I just had too much of an OC, mem controller couldn't handle 285HTT (despite using a 5:4 divider, or something like that, so I knew the mem wouldn't be a problem). Seems fine back to 250HTT 1:1.
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