Originally Posted by bigz The games are left at their default settings, and Doom 3 has a capped FPS except for when you use the time demo function. I don't believe in benchmarking graphics cards with a time demo, because it does not represent true game play. The max_fps command you speak of does not work, and there are no commands that I can see relating to maximum frame rate in the console.
I don't believe in modifying the game from its default settings either, Doom 3 is capped at 60 fps as that is how ID Software designed the game to be. Half-Life 2 is totally uncapped, as was the developer's intention. There is no error, that is exactly how the end user will see the game if they install the game and play it IMHO.
I don't agree with the minimum frame rate statements you make either, it's dependant on any number of features, usually the speed of the video memory. If there is enough intensity in the graphics, you will see a massive drop, I've spent a great deal of time playing through all of the games I use to benchmark to be sure that I've found one of, if not the most graphic intense portions of the title for benchmarking purposes. The frame rates you see should be playable throughout the ENTIRE title, not just through my chosen section.
You see higher results when people use time demo's in Doom 3, but they are not realistic, and we all remember the cheating that went on during the GeForceFX era in 3DMark03.. using real games highlights exactly how your video card will perform when you play games. :)
Edit: Also, why would you want me to recommend that you spend even more money than you need to, when I've quite clearly proven that you can play these games on a slower CPU with SLI and still see very good performance? I don't get commissioned for every CPU or GPU sale I create, so I may as well advise you to spend your money wisely. That's what integrity is for.
I dont believe in using demos either, see my results this morning from Doom 3, playing through 3 levels & recording min / max / average with FRAPS.
Doom 3 Avg: 59.695 - Min: 40 - Max: 62 - capped at 60fps - 2.4 gig cpu
you can clearly see a 20% improvement in min framerate by uncapping, this means much smoother gameplay as you dont get FPS lag, believe what you like, results above are pretty clear, try it for yourself, the gamephysics are still calculated at 60FPS so you dont get Q3 125 FPS type bugs. But you do get smoother gamepley due to a higher min FPS
add the following to your config..
seta com_fixedTic "-1" to remove the 60fps limit
then
seta r_displayRefresh "500" or whatever you want to use..
HL2 Engine also shows the same effect, try playing CS:Source Aztec at 60fps cap, it drops to 40 on mine, uncapped it never goes below 60.
I dont recommend people spend more money than necessary, which is why I always advise people to buy the fastest CPU they can & 1 GFX card.
SLI is great for more AA & AF, it does little for more FPS, CPU does a lot more.
You see that there is no difference between the three CPU's using Doom 3 time demo and an uncapped frame rate when you are using the best-playable in game settings that I've determined in many GeForce 6800 GT video card reviews. :)
While it is good to uncap the frame rate, the majority of people don't modify the game's engine. Using an unmodified game engine shows that you don't need a fast CPU to play the game the way the developer meant for it to be played.
Originally Posted by Firehed A little bit more about the PSUs would have been good (amp ratings? I know ASUS recommends 18a for 6600GTs and like 24a for 6800Us, and I've heard in most cases one huge 12v rail is better than dual smaller ones since in most situations, all of the mobo and graphics power would be drawn from one rail, and the molex's from the other), but other than that, great work.
I did mention about a single, high current line being more suitable than dual 12v lines, but dual 12v lines were fine until I tried to overclock on GeForce 6800 Ultra and GeForce 6800 GT SLI.
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I'm not sure if this is the appropriate thread to mentioned this seeing as the articles are all about SLI but as you mentioned recommended specs in the final one I thought I'd just ask what you'd recommend as a cooler for an Athlon 64bit 3500+. I'm mainly after a fairly simple, air cooled quiet cooling solution. I don't need to overclock the cpu so as long as it does a reasonable job at cooling I'll be happy. Many thanks.
I have not got much experience past the stock FX-55 cooler, but I *think* the Arctic Cooling Freezer 64 is supposed to be a very good, quiet, cooling solution.
You see that there is no difference between the three CPU's using Doom 3 time demo and an uncapped frame rate when you are using the best-playable in game settings that I've determined in many GeForce 6800 GT video card reviews. :)
While it is good to uncap the frame rate, the majority of people don't modify the game's engine. Using an unmodified game engine shows that you don't need a fast CPU to play the game the way the developer meant for it to be played.
Hi mate,
I run the following, FX-53, 6800 ultra (AGP), both are normally overclocked. Settings are high quality ingame menu (autodetect) & a custom res of 1920X1200 16:10 aspect ratio (I use a Dell 24 inch screen). I use this res in all games.
I see an increased performance in Doom 3 of about 5% when overclocking the CPU, not much in this one, but in others (CS:Source which uses the HL2 engine) the difference is huge.
Ive seen many people disappointed after splashing out for SLI systems, benchies are great but actual game performance did not match.
As an example afriend of mine bought a dual 6800 GT SLI sys & matched it with an AMD64 3500 & was surprised at the low FPS he got in CS:Source. I convinced him to sell the 2nd card, get better mem & CPU cooling which allowed him to overclock, he doubled his min FPS which led to smooth game play.
A single 6800 ultra is CPU limited by an FX53 at stock (I can see a huge increase in FPS when I overclock my fx53 in CS:Source) so 2 are crippled(other than allowing more AA & AF, which at the res I play is not noticable).
Overclocking or upgrading the CPU gives a bigger ingame benefit than SLI & this will become more & more relevent as game physics become more & more complicated.
cost wise, uncapping the FPS is free & can give better results than adding a 2nd gfx card
notice the effect capping max FPS has on the min again, min fps is hugley important, these rates under 30 are horrible to play. Even at 2.9 gig on the CPU, with capped FPS the min is terrible.
When its uncapped & CPU overclocked it becomes very smooth.
would be great if someone could explain how capping maxfps can have such an effect on min, obviously CPU is dropping frames to work on the physics etc but why is it relative to the max ???
that's all well and good, but as I said, you don't need it if you don't modify the game's engine. I don't see the point in me personally modding the engine, as then I have to explain to everyone how I have modified the engine and why I have done so, every time I write a video card review using Doom 3. Half-Life 2's frame rate is uncapped, I happen to be using the most graphic intense part of the title for my manual run through. ;)
Also, you have *increased* the CPU speed, I throttled the CPU back - it might make subtle differences...
Originally Posted by bigz that's all well and good, but as I said, you don't need it if you don't modify the game's engine. I don't see the point in me personally modding the engine, as then I have to explain to everyone how I have modified the engine and why I have done so, every time I write a video card review using Doom 3. Half-Life 2's frame rate is uncapped, I happen to be using the most graphic intense part of the title for my manual run through. ;)
Also, you have *increased* the CPU speed, I throttled the CPU back - it might make subtle differences...
but your review shows min FPS of 30, thats approaching unplayable for a lot of people especially people who play a lot of FPS games online, even after wasting money on a second card your review shows min FPS of 30
A single card with uncapped max FPS outperforms a capped SLI setup, SLI doesn't look so good from that point of view does it.
I will leave the discussion at that as obviously I dont expect a comprehensive SLI roundup to recommend a single card instead, but for anyone else reading this, look into it more before spending money on SLI
Originally Posted by mcmad but your review shows min FPS of 30, thats approaching unplayable for a lot of people especially people who play a lot of FPS games online, even after wasting money on a second card your review shows min FPS of 30
Yes, is the section of Doom 3 you used a section that is hugely graphics intense? Try using either the first half of the Caverns level or the Enpro level, and report back.
Quote:
A single card with uncapped max FPS outperforms a capped SLI setup, SLI doesn't look so good from that point of view does it.
lol, uncap the fps on an SLI setup and you will see improvements in SLI's performance too. The fact is, unless you have an SLI setup to compare capped to uncapped, you are throwing numbers in to the pot that merely confuse matters. Sure, there's a performance increase when you uncap the frame rate in Doom 3 in CPU-limited levels, but you've not given details of the levels you have used for your FRAPS run, so we can't make a conclusive comment as to whether this is the case in levels that are GPU limited.
As I showed in the link, Doom 3 time demo does not show CPU limitations between a 4000+ and an FX-55 in GPU limited scenarios. Note that the settings that I used in that CPU review were the settings that I found to be best playable in this SLI upgrade guide.
In a single player game, you don't particularly need a constant 60fps all of the time, so long as it is smooth. In online multiplayer first-person shooters, I play at settings where my frame rate will never drop below 60fps, but that is a different type of game than a single player game IMHO.
Quote:
I will leave the discussion at that as obviously I dont expect a comprehensive SLI roundup to recommend a single card instead, but for anyone else reading this, look into it more before spending money on SLI
If you had read through the whole guide, I did recommend a single card!
Hmm I must say that although this SLI-business all looks rather impressive, and I am a huge sucker for the pure gadget appeal it represents, there is still a thought that is bugging me. I remember the "original" SLI incarnation. At that time I went ahead and bought me a pair of 3Dfx Voodoo II's PCI (12MB each) so that I could play Privateer in 1024x768 instead of the standard 800x600. Those cards were 3D-only, so I also had a Matrox Millennium G200 AGP for basic Windows stuff. It was all very nice, but a relatively short time later (as I remember it - please correct me if I'm wrong) new cards started appearing from ATI and nVIDIA. A single one of those newer cards could easily blow away my 3-card setup, and only use a single slot. (the next card I got was a GF2U btw)
That is why I'm wondering what the use of it all is. To me it seems like just another marketing ploy from nVIDIA to get people to buy their expensive SLI chipset and increase the sale of their graphics cards (previous-generation gfx cards from their point of view), while at the same time they probably have a new graphics card generation lined up that will single-handedly blow away the fastest current SLI setup.
It all depends on how long we have to wait for those next-gen cards to appear, but i'm fairly convinced that they will be less expensive than an 6800GT SLI setup, let alone a 6800U SLI setup. Apart from that, as your article states, SLI is still a technology that needs some development, be it hardware-side or driver-side. That only adds to my hesitation to jump on the SLI train.
All in all, I just get this uneasy feeling that we're being tricked into buying a very expensive setup that will lose most of its value a few months down the road...
This page goes crackerjacks in IE, thought you may appreciate knowing ;)
Also, I noticed a distinctive lack of Intel solutions in your "Chosing a CPU" portion of this article series. I know you are not ignorant of the fact that Intel solutions do exist and are on the market, but did you just not have any review samples on hand or something along those lines?
This page goes crackerjacks in IE, thought you may appreciate knowing ;)
We're aware of that, thanks.
Quote:
Also, I noticed a distinctive lack of Intel solutions in your "Chosing a CPU" portion of this article series. I know you are not ignorant of the fact that Intel solutions do exist and are on the market, but did you just not have any review samples on hand or something along those lines?
We have an intel motherboard roundup planned for some time soon. I've got a reference motherboard here, but felt that we may as well wait in line for some retail boards to hit home seeing as we have missed the initial wave of NForce 4 SLI Intel Edition chipset previews.
It is something we do plan to cover in the near future. :)
When you return to Windows, you will be greeted with a final message stating that SLI is enabled, warning you that you cannot run multi-monitor mode. It is a bit of a shame that you cannot run multiple monitors when SLI mode is enabled. They do work if you disable SLI in the driver, but rebooting every time you come out of a game would get a little tedious in our opinion. It's certainly not ideal, and we hope that NVIDIA can find a way to allow high-end gamers using SLI, who have consequently spent a hell of a lot of money, to use multiple monitor set ups should they wish to.
Asked about this in post #25, but nobody seems to have answered this as of yet, so, does that 'multi-monitor' include tv-out?
or in other words, does using SLI disable ability use tv-out?
Originally Posted by Sathy Asked about this in post #25, but nobody seems to have answered this as of yet, so, does that 'multi-monitor' include tv-out?
or in other words, does using SLI disable ability use tv-out?
I'll have a look in a few mins - I've only just got back from Taiwan after 30hrs of travelling... I'll see if I can get something to work. :)
Sorry for the delay, I've been looking for a connector that connects my Composite cable to my TV. However, I understand that there have been bug reports on this topic, and it should be fixed in the 75-series drivers which aren't *too* far away. ;)
Originally Posted by bigz Sorry for the delay, I've been looking for a connector that connects my Composite cable to my TV. However, I understand that there have been bug reports on this topic, and it should be fixed in the 75-series drivers which aren't *too* far away. ;)
All multimonitor or just TV-out?
Because dayam would I love to make use of at least one of the three DVI plugs I have available.... and indeed the adaptor I have to use my 19"CRT seems to be rather flaky, if it gets to be at some odd angle the signal to my monitor gets whacked and gets a bluish tint :/
Comments 51 to 66 of 66
I dont believe in using demos either, see my results this morning from Doom 3, playing through 3 levels & recording min / max / average with FRAPS.
Doom 3 Avg: 59.695 - Min: 40 - Max: 62 - capped at 60fps - 2.4 gig cpu
Doom 3 Avg: 115.486 - Min: 49 - Max: 265 - uncapped FPS 2.4 gig CPU
you can clearly see a 20% improvement in min framerate by uncapping, this means much smoother gameplay as you dont get FPS lag, believe what you like, results above are pretty clear, try it for yourself, the gamephysics are still calculated at 60FPS so you dont get Q3 125 FPS type bugs. But you do get smoother gamepley due to a higher min FPS
add the following to your config..
seta com_fixedTic "-1" to remove the 60fps limit
then
seta r_displayRefresh "500" or whatever you want to use..
HL2 Engine also shows the same effect, try playing CS:Source Aztec at 60fps cap, it drops to 40 on mine, uncapped it never goes below 60.
I dont recommend people spend more money than necessary, which is why I always advise people to buy the fastest CPU they can & 1 GFX card.
SLI is great for more AA & AF, it does little for more FPS, CPU does a lot more.
If you look here: http://www.bit-tech.net/hardware/2005/05/09/amd_a64x2_4800/4.html
You see that there is no difference between the three CPU's using Doom 3 time demo and an uncapped frame rate when you are using the best-playable in game settings that I've determined in many GeForce 6800 GT video card reviews. :)
While it is good to uncap the frame rate, the majority of people don't modify the game's engine. Using an unmodified game engine shows that you don't need a fast CPU to play the game the way the developer meant for it to be played.
I did mention about a single, high current line being more suitable than dual 12v lines, but dual 12v lines were fine until I tried to overclock on GeForce 6800 Ultra and GeForce 6800 GT SLI.
I have not got much experience past the stock FX-55 cooler, but I *think* the Arctic Cooling Freezer 64 is supposed to be a very good, quiet, cooling solution.
Hi mate,
I run the following, FX-53, 6800 ultra (AGP), both are normally overclocked. Settings are high quality ingame menu (autodetect) & a custom res of 1920X1200 16:10 aspect ratio (I use a Dell 24 inch screen). I use this res in all games.
I see an increased performance in Doom 3 of about 5% when overclocking the CPU, not much in this one, but in others (CS:Source which uses the HL2 engine) the difference is huge.
Ive seen many people disappointed after splashing out for SLI systems, benchies are great but actual game performance did not match.
As an example afriend of mine bought a dual 6800 GT SLI sys & matched it with an AMD64 3500 & was surprised at the low FPS he got in CS:Source. I convinced him to sell the 2nd card, get better mem & CPU cooling which allowed him to overclock, he doubled his min FPS which led to smooth game play.
A single 6800 ultra is CPU limited by an FX53 at stock (I can see a huge increase in FPS when I overclock my fx53 in CS:Source) so 2 are crippled(other than allowing more AA & AF, which at the res I play is not noticable).
Overclocking or upgrading the CPU gives a bigger ingame benefit than SLI & this will become more & more relevent as game physics become more & more complicated.
cost wise, uncapping the FPS is free & can give better results than adding a 2nd gfx card
1920X1200 res, 2X AA, 4 X AF, single 6800 ultra at stock.
hl2 - Avg: 49.829 - Min: 28 - Max: 62 - 60FPS MAX - CPU 2.4 gig
hl2 - Avg: 76.061 - Min: 47 - Max: 128 - uncapped FPS - CPU 2.4 gig
hl2 - Avg: 56.068 - Min: 29 - Max: 62 - 60FPS MAX - CPU 2.9 gig
hl2 - Avg: 81.973 - Min: 59 - Max: 148 - uncapped FPS - CPU 2.9 gig
notice the effect capping max FPS has on the min again, min fps is hugley important, these rates under 30 are horrible to play. Even at 2.9 gig on the CPU, with capped FPS the min is terrible.
When its uncapped & CPU overclocked it becomes very smooth.
would be great if someone could explain how capping maxfps can have such an effect on min, obviously CPU is dropping frames to work on the physics etc but why is it relative to the max ???
Also, you have *increased* the CPU speed, I throttled the CPU back - it might make subtle differences...
but your review shows min FPS of 30, thats approaching unplayable for a lot of people especially people who play a lot of FPS games online, even after wasting money on a second card your review shows min FPS of 30
A single card with uncapped max FPS outperforms a capped SLI setup, SLI doesn't look so good from that point of view does it.
I will leave the discussion at that as obviously I dont expect a comprehensive SLI roundup to recommend a single card instead, but for anyone else reading this, look into it more before spending money on SLI
Yes, is the section of Doom 3 you used a section that is hugely graphics intense? Try using either the first half of the Caverns level or the Enpro level, and report back.
lol, uncap the fps on an SLI setup and you will see improvements in SLI's performance too. The fact is, unless you have an SLI setup to compare capped to uncapped, you are throwing numbers in to the pot that merely confuse matters. Sure, there's a performance increase when you uncap the frame rate in Doom 3 in CPU-limited levels, but you've not given details of the levels you have used for your FRAPS run, so we can't make a conclusive comment as to whether this is the case in levels that are GPU limited.
As I showed in the link, Doom 3 time demo does not show CPU limitations between a 4000+ and an FX-55 in GPU limited scenarios. Note that the settings that I used in that CPU review were the settings that I found to be best playable in this SLI upgrade guide.
In a single player game, you don't particularly need a constant 60fps all of the time, so long as it is smooth. In online multiplayer first-person shooters, I play at settings where my frame rate will never drop below 60fps, but that is a different type of game than a single player game IMHO.
That is why I'm wondering what the use of it all is. To me it seems like just another marketing ploy from nVIDIA to get people to buy their expensive SLI chipset and increase the sale of their graphics cards (previous-generation gfx cards from their point of view), while at the same time they probably have a new graphics card generation lined up that will single-handedly blow away the fastest current SLI setup.
It all depends on how long we have to wait for those next-gen cards to appear, but i'm fairly convinced that they will be less expensive than an 6800GT SLI setup, let alone a 6800U SLI setup. Apart from that, as your article states, SLI is still a technology that needs some development, be it hardware-side or driver-side. That only adds to my hesitation to jump on the SLI train.
All in all, I just get this uneasy feeling that we're being tricked into buying a very expensive setup that will lose most of its value a few months down the road...
This page goes crackerjacks in IE, thought you may appreciate knowing ;)
Also, I noticed a distinctive lack of Intel solutions in your "Chosing a CPU" portion of this article series. I know you are not ignorant of the fact that Intel solutions do exist and are on the market, but did you just not have any review samples on hand or something along those lines?
We're aware of that, thanks.
It is something we do plan to cover in the near future. :)
Asked about this in post #25, but nobody seems to have answered this as of yet, so, does that 'multi-monitor' include tv-out?
or in other words, does using SLI disable ability use tv-out?
Thx for the great articles!
I'll have a look in a few mins - I've only just got back from Taiwan after 30hrs of travelling... I'll see if I can get something to work. :)
Because dayam would I love to make use of at least one of the three DVI plugs I have available.... and indeed the adaptor I have to use my 19"CRT seems to be rather flaky, if it gets to be at some odd angle the signal to my monitor gets whacked and gets a bluish tint :/