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The Death of Stealth

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Krayzie_B.o.n.e. 1st November 2010, 09:02 Quote
The Death of Stealth!

Well what did you expect when developers gave everybody guns, grenades, and predator drones. Bring back the Ninja and you will bring back a proper stealth game.
Fishlock 1st November 2010, 09:39 Quote
I think I replayd the Thief and Himan series at least 4-5 times, love stealth games.
rickysio 1st November 2010, 09:44 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by Krayzie_B.o.n.e.
The Death of Stealth!

Well what did you expect when developers gave everybody guns, grenades, and predator drones. Bring back the Ninja and you will bring back a proper stealth game.

Depends on which sort of Ninja.
thehippoz 1st November 2010, 09:45 Quote
try velvet assassin.. thought that was pretty good minus the ran out of budget ending
ulfar 1st November 2010, 09:46 Quote
to be fair, atleast two great mmo's have implemented a bit of the "stealth gaming", though maybe not as well as the pure "stealthers".

in ddo you can play as a rogue (or any other class) and get a high enough stealth ability to actually just pass by the enemies and complete the quest with minimal violence (killing 2 rather than killing 50), though this can not be done to other players and unfortunately you can't run about robbing people (man i would've loved that).

in EVE online you can scan players down (in your system), be it miners or pve:ers and steal their loot or what's in their cargo (providing they dump some of it in cargo containers which float around in space). you can also fit your ship with cloaking devices, allowing you to fly through enemy (or zero security, heavily pirate infested) space without being noticed (not showing on anyones scan's) stealing from other players (high value loot) or flying into npc areas and steal whatever they have. (there are other ways to be a ninja in eve too).

so atleast some have that feature, letting us who are born ninjas to act out on our nowadays seemingly perverted wish to do damage without being seen.
Havalynii 1st November 2010, 09:53 Quote
Maybe I'm just terrible at this game, but I HAVE to play S.T.A.L.K.E.R. Clear Sky as a stealth game to survive, and I love it. I can't stand playing Modern Warfare or its ilk, even Dragon Rising seems a bit too forgiving compared to the S.T.A.L.K.E.R. series or to ARMA I/II and the original Flashpoint. I'm not the best MW player, but the game itself isn't really hard (campaign) it's more that the achievements are challenging. I remember the bruising first brushes with Rainbow Six, Delta Force, SiN, Deus Ex, Thief, Goldeneye on 00 Agent, Half-Life on Hard, and the stubborn pride that dared me to drop the difficulty level, because it wouldn't just mean I was too lazy to survive the game, it would mean I was too dumb. I have less time to game now, so I do appreciate games that let me save instead of having to hit a checkpoint, so maybe I've softened a bit. But I like games that make me feel like I'm fighting for my virtual life and that if I am alone, only my mental faculties and precision will save me.
nukeman8 1st November 2010, 10:02 Quote
well WoW had/has (not played it in ages) stealth to. The rogue use to able to bypass alot of mobs just to kill off the 1 boss that you needed, sometimes through entire dungeons.
dispie 1st November 2010, 10:09 Quote
I would like to see a good ninja game, nice and stealthy

sneak in kill the person you came for and sneak out, good thing about ninja's is the have all sorts of wapon gear, so if you do get in trouble you can at least kill and disappear in smoke of your smoke boms.

but oblivion does do a nice jobs i still love creeping trough that game shooting people from the shadow waiting till it calms down before shooting the next one that happely wonders by me without seeing me
HugoC 1st November 2010, 10:13 Quote
Plenty of stealth in Amnesia: the dark descent, but granted, that's the exception.
The decline of stealth games and of horror games is connected.
Mentai 1st November 2010, 10:18 Quote
What are you talking about? The best stealth game ever was released last year. And the sequel is being developed.

Batman: AA

Sure it is empowered stealth, but it is still stealth. You can't just walk into a room full of dudes with guns, picking them off is great.
maximus09 1st November 2010, 10:22 Quote
I loved HItman Blood Money, still one of my fav games. And Batman AA was great, still lots of action and it was maybe a bit easy to fight a group of people, but hte sneaky bits were great!
steveo_mcg 1st November 2010, 10:31 Quote
Part of the problem with stealth is that eventually you just want to walk in to the street twin ballers in hand and go postal...

... Though generally only after a couple of attempts at a level.
stonedsurd 1st November 2010, 10:35 Quote
The amount of pop-culture references nearly made my head explode. In a good way.
thelaw 1st November 2010, 10:38 Quote
Eh like music and clothing each genre has its days, dies and comes back again, just waiting for the space sims to come back again from the early to mid 90s when it died.....when people get bored of FPS
BRAWL 1st November 2010, 10:52 Quote
Tis a shame... I used to love trying to get through every Metal Gear Solid game without setting off an alarm (Unless scripted... that bloody comms tower after Sniper Wolf in MGS1 for example...) and managed it, still to this day, I've no idea how...

The "Crap, am I hidden enough? Can they see me from here? What's my avenue of escape if needed?" mode, no longer exists because it almost feels like alot of gamers these days, just aren't capable of understanding this, they just press the trigger and stuff dies/explodes.
MisterCristofol 1st November 2010, 10:58 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by rickysio
Quote:
Originally Posted by Krayzie_B.o.n.e.
The Death of Stealth!

Well what did you expect when developers gave everybody guns, grenades, and predator drones. Bring back the Ninja and you will bring back a proper stealth game.

Depends on which sort of Ninja.

The greatest ninja/stealth game I've ever played is Tenchu: Stealth Assassins for the PS1, released in 1998 also. Not as refined as Thief of MGS but I found the replayability value far superior. I used to spends ages trying to perfect each mission, killing all the guards on the map as quickly as possible without being seen to get the highest Grand Master rating. The best bit of course was sitting back and enjoying the animations of the elaborate butchering techniques employed after having performed a succesful stealth kill! Shame the series went down the pan with its future releases on PS2 and Xbox.
Fizzl 1st November 2010, 11:13 Quote
I do like stealth is an option type games when done well. There have been a few times though when I've invested heavily in stealth only to come across a section that requires me to fight and I spend the next few hours running away from things chipping of tiny amounts of health as I go. Or alternatively stealth can be rather over powered and so becomes not so fun, oblivion is a good example, where my stealth became so good I can waltz up to people and poke them in the ear without them spotting.
Havalynii 1st November 2010, 11:48 Quote
I remember fondly games that were hard to complete, not just games that were a challenge in terms of achievements. STALKER Clear Sky is my current game of choice and I feel like it requires a lot of stealth to survive and it is brutally unforgiving of error. That's what I loved with Thief, Operation Flashpoint, and even Half-Life and Goldeneye 007. Modern Warfare is not my cup of tea, but I think a lot of what really bothers me in that genre of FPS is the idea that your actions really don't have consequences. If my death doesn't really matter in the game, than odds are my problem solving doesn't either. There was nothing more satisfying in Thief than to pull of the perfect heist knowing that the enemy was never even aware of your presence. It's a slower build leading to a greater payoff in my opinion, and I look forward to (thanks @thelaw) the genre making a comeback in full someday. As an aside, I thought it was awesome how in the second Splinter Cell shot, the opponents were dressed like Sam USED to be dressed and he like them. =0]
Yemerich 1st November 2010, 11:56 Quote
I think the problem is that publishers are aiming console gamers. Console gamers need simple games yet fast ones. Every game is now dumbed down to fit consoles, and the games we see in PC are just some kind of port from console. Stealth games are NOT for the faint of heart (aka console players). They are well elaborated and need carefull planing.

In other words, whats is killing PC games are the console games. Thank god we still have the strategy ones that can ONLY be played weel on pc.
Havalynii 1st November 2010, 12:09 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by Yemerich
I think the problem is that publishers are aiming console gamers. Console gamers need simple games yet fast ones. Every game is now dumbed down to fit consoles, and the games we see in PC are just some kind of port from console. Stealth games are NOT for the faint of heart (aka console players). They are well elaborated and need carefull planing.

In other words, whats is killing PC games are the console games. Thank god we still have the strategy ones that can ONLY be played weel on pc.

While in general I agree with you that "consolification" damages PC game quality, I actually think stealth games can work quite well on a console, such as was the case with Splinter Cell and Metal Gear Solid. FPS games in general, however, suffer greatly when compared to much more realistic FPS games on PC. I have Operation Flashpoint for the original XBox. It was a terrible port of a game that can never be reduced to standard resolution and a controller.
DbD 1st November 2010, 12:09 Quote
Stealth is an option in lots of fps so to say it's dead is wrong - lots of games have that (.e.g. alien vs predator hasn't been mentioned yet, neither has L4D vs mode where you use stealth to jump the humans).

However I think the major shift from stealth based games to just having it as an option is stealth doesn't work well on-line. There are few things likely to turn off a new gamer faster then being repeatedly killed by someone he can't even see, hence no game can be to reliant on stealth.
CardJoe 1st November 2010, 12:18 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by DbD
Stealth is an option in lots of fps so to say it's dead is wrong - lots of games have that (.e.g. alien vs predator hasn't been mentioned yet, neither has L4D vs mode where you use stealth to jump the humans).

However I think the major shift from stealth based games to just having it as an option is stealth doesn't work well on-line. There are few things likely to turn off a new gamer faster then being repeatedly killed by someone he can't even see, hence no game can be to reliant on stealth.

Read the article.
Flibblebot 1st November 2010, 12:26 Quote
But I hate that developers seem to have fallen into this "console gamers have the attention span of goldfish" mindset. Nor do I subscribe to the elitist PC idea that all console gamers are dumb.

I'm a console gamer (there. I said it), and what I value above all else in a game is depth of story, development of character and in-depth gameplay. Surely the success of games like Fallout & Mass Effect have shown that there is a market for games that don't cater to the "quick fix" mentality.

Sure, the console control mechanism means that the UI has to be simplified, but how does that mean that the game has to be simplified too?

Like Mentai said above, the Batman game used stealth to great effect - it just wasn't possible to go in to a room full of baddies all batarangs blazing and expect to survive. I loved that it would take me 10 or 15 minutes to clear a room as I waited for enemies to walk to a place where I could take them out quietly.

So, a note to all game developers (and those elitist PC gamers who think you're somehow better than console gamers): not all console gamers are 15-year-old with the attention span of a goldfish on speed. Some of us are older, some of us like story and character development, and some of us like stealth.
Havalynii 1st November 2010, 12:47 Quote
@Flibblebot

I hope I didn't give the impression that I consider you dumb. I switched back to PC after a hiatus that covered the N64, Dreamcast, and original XBox, and some games work quite well on console (I mentioned some excellent stealth ones above). The games that I was talking about that DON'T work near as well on a console are more along the lines of strategic or tactical shooters with a focus on squad/company/platoon/brigade command. Those have quite a bit of stealth, which is why I mentioned them, but Flashpoint and Splinter Cell are two wildly different beasts. I think that I'm more interested (as I think you are saying you are also) in developers having the confidence playing to the potential strengths of a given platform. Shenmue is a console game I enjoyed on two systems that is definitely a thinking game, as are KOTOR I and II, and countless others. Fallout 3 is perfect for a console, but STALKER, a game that appears quite similar on the surface, would be miserable on a console without some serious handicaps given to the player to make his aiming able to keep up with an opponent that reacts like a seasoned mouse and keyboard human player. Sorry for the long post, I was just wanting to clarify that I am decidely NOT anti-console nor calling anyone dumb!
B33 ENN 1st November 2010, 13:17 Quote
Though the game admittedly has its faults, being somewhat of an unfinished product, for me, sneaking and sniping is as rewarding in Far Cry 2 as running-and-gunning (which you can't do for long without adequate planning for cover if you want to survive anyway!). Usually, a mix of the two is most efficient. It's one of the things I love about that game and keeps me coming back to it: it's down to you to invent your own playing style and how you choose to approach objectives.

I have approached the same missions many different ways, and at the polar extremes from blasting the enemy camps into confusion with grenade and RPG assaults, to a night time skulk into their inner sanctum to accomplish the goal and exit to safety without a single shot fired. Use an IED to blow up the convoy hiding at safe distance, or challenge yourself by using only a pistol and the terrain as your ally to scupper the defenders.

I'm about to move on to STALKER, which I hear has similar player determined flexibility; however, openworld/sandbox games aren't for everyone. I don't think stealth is dead, but more that good game developers are advancing to offer more realistic choices in approach whatever the underlying structure of the game: Crysis was a game that offered the linear progression that many players prefer, yet still offering a variey of choice to the player in determining his/her approach (for the first half levels anyway).

I'd like to see more games like this in future where the game engines don't have to be "canned" to offer an either/or scenario for a game script (i.e. stealth game OR run-and-gun game). CoR: Assault on Dark Athena was a good example of that, where in the Butcher's Bay remake part, you stealth around consistent with Riddick's character... but then they shift it to beat-and-maul in new Dark Athena mission, leaving you unable to choose.
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