Okay, I can see where some of the complaints are coming from about L4D losing support, and unfulfilled promises etc.
But the claim that this could simply be a DLC pack is simply ridiculous. To back up this claim, I would like to present some evidence.
L4D1 featured a hell of alot of sounds. L4D1 has nearly 2.1 GB of sounds. This is with the current Director, and 4 characters. If Valve ended up making L4D1 characters playable in L4D2 like it has hinted at trying to, that would double this amount because you would now have 8 characters. Then this number would become one third greater at least, because all of the dialogue between players (friendly fire, "Hey Bill, you should heal", etc.) would need to apply to all 8 characters: Bill should be able to talk to Rochelle, and Coach to Francis.
Even if we left L4D2 with only its 4 characters, we'll use 2.1 as a base number. But when you consider that Valve has already spoken that they are going to try and make character conversation much more complex, and changing based on situations, stress levels etc., that could easily double this number. So now we have 4.2 GB. Then you consider we have whole new soundsets for some special infected (E.g. the Hunter can be heard with a new scream, etc) and then a whole new soundset for the uncommon-common, and the Charger's sounds. So without taking into consideration ANY of the new 3D models, textures, scripted events, zombie and Director AI, maps, or music, we already could be looking at nearly 6-8 GB of a DLC just purely through sounds. This is larger than any priced DLC I've ever encountered, let alone free DLC"s.
Adding to this is the fact that Downloadable Content =/= Downloadable EntireGameAddon. Like it has been mentioned, Fallout 3 released packs of new areas and content, whereas L4D2 is an entire new game, with new maps, characters etc. So the argument of L4D2 being a DLC, imo, makes no sense.
Sorry for the double post, and apologies for my numeric error in the post above. In my euphoria of numbers I forgot to use the Survivor voice data size instead of the overall, the survivor voice filesize is about 0.91 GB, so for survivor sounds ALONE the size would probably be bordering 2GB for L4D2, and then with the addition of 3 new infected (Since the 4th is not set in stone) that would be around 50 MB additional, and then the sounds for new uncommon commons would be about 39.5 MB. This is all assuming Valve uses the same amount of sound data as they did in the first, rather than expanding upon and adding for variety, which is likely they will. So we have a size of roughly 2-2.5 GB of uncompressed sound data for the DLC alone, without maps, models etc.
Once again, sorry for the double post and my error in the above post.
Originally Posted by Jasozz Okay, I can see where some of the complaints are coming from about L4D losing support, and unfulfilled promises etc.
But the claim that this could simply be a DLC pack is simply ridiculous. To back up this claim, I would like to present some evidence.
L4D1 featured a hell of alot of sounds. L4D1 has nearly 2.1 GB of sounds. This is with the current Director, and 4 characters. If Valve ended up making L4D1 characters playable in L4D2 like it has hinted at trying to, that would double this amount because you would now have 8 characters. Then this number would become one third greater at least, because all of the dialogue between players (friendly fire, "Hey Bill, you should heal", etc.) would need to apply to all 8 characters: Bill should be able to talk to Rochelle, and Coach to Francis.
Even if we left L4D2 with only its 4 characters, we'll use 2.1 as a base number. But when you consider that Valve has already spoken that they are going to try and make character conversation much more complex, and changing based on situations, stress levels etc., that could easily double this number. So now we have 4.2 GB. Then you consider we have whole new soundsets for some special infected (E.g. the Hunter can be heard with a new scream, etc) and then a whole new soundset for the uncommon-common, and the Charger's sounds. So without taking into consideration ANY of the new 3D models, textures, scripted events, zombie and Director AI, maps, or music, we already could be looking at nearly 6-8 GB of a DLC just purely through sounds. This is larger than any priced DLC I've ever encountered, let alone free DLC"s.
Adding to this is the fact that Downloadable Content =/= Downloadable EntireGameAddon. Like it has been mentioned, Fallout 3 released packs of new areas and content, whereas L4D2 is an entire new game, with new maps, characters etc. So the argument of L4D2 being a DLC, imo, makes no sense.
Do you not think that the reason why the sounds took up so much space on L4D was because they had so much space to use? No point compressing sounds if you don't need to.
And if you really think Valve would be willing to put up to 8GB of sound on a DVD then you must be mad. They would need at least 2 DVDs in that case, not to mention how ridiculous it would be to download the full game from Steam
The fact of the matter is that Valve is the company that put The Orange Box on one DVD. One! I very much doubt L4D2 is going to have more sound than TOB, especially with all the commentaries.
Now, I don't know how big L4D is going to be, and I'm not even going to guess, because frankly, any estimates are based on assumptions since none of us work at Valve. I can't imagine it being that big, but I'm not going to pretend to know.
All joking aside, It's genuinely hard for me to develop any interest in this title for two reasons: 1) I still feel ripped off by Valve on L4D1 given the lack of additional promised content. 2) the lack of character development and boring avatar art in #2 really looks to me like they're rushing it out the door to rip me off further.
Originally Posted by Jasozz Okay, I can see where some of the complaints are coming from about L4D losing support, and unfulfilled promises etc.
But the claim that this could simply be a DLC pack is simply ridiculous. To back up this claim, I would like to present some evidence.
L4D1 featured a hell of alot of sounds. L4D1 has nearly 2.1 GB of sounds. This is with the current Director, and 4 characters. If Valve ended up making L4D1 characters playable in L4D2 like it has hinted at trying to, that would double this amount because you would now have 8 characters. Then this number would become one third greater at least, because all of the dialogue between players (friendly fire, "Hey Bill, you should heal", etc.) would need to apply to all 8 characters: Bill should be able to talk to Rochelle, and Coach to Francis.
Even if we left L4D2 with only its 4 characters, we'll use 2.1 as a base number. But when you consider that Valve has already spoken that they are going to try and make character conversation much more complex, and changing based on situations, stress levels etc., that could easily double this number. So now we have 4.2 GB. Then you consider we have whole new soundsets for some special infected (E.g. the Hunter can be heard with a new scream, etc) and then a whole new soundset for the uncommon-common, and the Charger's sounds. So without taking into consideration ANY of the new 3D models, textures, scripted events, zombie and Director AI, maps, or music, we already could be looking at nearly 6-8 GB of a DLC just purely through sounds. This is larger than any priced DLC I've ever encountered, let alone free DLC"s.
Adding to this is the fact that Downloadable Content =/= Downloadable EntireGameAddon. Like it has been mentioned, Fallout 3 released packs of new areas and content, whereas L4D2 is an entire new game, with new maps, characters etc. So the argument of L4D2 being a DLC, imo, makes no sense.
Do you not think that the reason why the sounds took up so much space on L4D was because they had so much space to use? No point compressing sounds if you don't need to.
And if you really think Valve would be willing to put up to 8GB of sound on a DVD then you must be mad. They would need at least 2 DVDs in that case, not to mention how ridiculous it would be to download the full game from Steam
The fact of the matter is that Valve is the company that put The Orange Box on one DVD. One! I very much doubt L4D2 is going to have more sound than TOB, especially with all the commentaries.
Now, I don't know how big L4D is going to be, and I'm not even going to guess, because frankly, any estimates are based on assumptions since none of us work at Valve. I can't imagine it being that big, but I'm not going to pretend to know.
If you had paid any attention the following post I admitted I made an error and corrected it, 8 GB of sound isn't a correct number. Secondly, my argument was that it would be too much data for a DLC, and you reinforced this. Thanks.
Hmm. I'm not sure I understand this speculation based on file size. What does that have to do with anything? I can't see it being an issue.
I'm hesitant to join the ranks deploring the "fall of Valve" and such, but honestly. If this new game is "too large" to be considered a patch or DLC, that is because content that could easily have gone into L4D during post-development work since last years release has clearly been withheld. Support for L4D after release has frankly been almost non-existent, and now we know why. There are plenty of examples; the SDK taking almost a year to be released; the game still featuring gameplay issues and imbalances that ruin finales or crescendos in versus or campaign; the unspeakably poor server joining system that is still, infuriatingly, the only method of connecting to a game that doesn't involve using the dev console.
It may be good business practice, but it isn't commendable. In fact, it IS deplorable.
The speculation on file size was only my input into the issue of a good deal of people saying that L4D2 is able to be DLC, which I don't believe is the case. And to Skiddywinks and his comment on Orange Box, it probably isn't incredibly difficult to fit that many games on one disc, when essentially its only 3 games, since HL2, E1 and E2 are all recycling a huge amount of content, and Portal also uses this content. Portal also really only has a few sounds that are exclusive to it, if you don't count dialogue. TF2 is about the only game on there that doesn't use a whole lot of recycled content, except for of course, the Source engine. I mean, its like playing 3 different sports with the same ball. It doesnt seem like there would've been many storage problems, and that doesn't make it a huge innovation.
Eh? Your point is invalid, I've already explained why.
Your speculation on "recycled content" in Portal is fairly misguided as well. The game features different textures and materials, music and models, different enemies and different weapons, new AI and of course the portal gun's functionality.
I didn't say all of the content in Portal was recycled, I said that Portal uses recycled content. Sound effects, textures, models. Concrete textures, metal textures, and the fencing and gates in Portal found near the end of the game are from Half Life, along with padlocks on several gates, which can be shot off if you use the impulse_101 cheat.
Last time I checked, stating that one's point is invalid without offering any explanation doesn't exactly mean the same as "I've already explained why", unless you are really that full of yourself as to assume everything you say instantly becomes reality.
I am and it does, but that's beside the point. Look 20 centimetres up, where I counter your suggestion that Valve have created too large a degree of content for it to feasibly work with the original with my own, suggesting that said content has in fact been withheld from post-release support for L4D, and as such the fairly modest amount of new content we see in L4D2 only seems large due to the fact that it is delivered to us in one package at once, rather than many over time.
Furthermore, I take issue with the following sentence: "I didn't say all of the content in Portal was recycled"
When it would appear that by and large you did, not 15 minutes back.
"Portal also really only has a few sounds that are exclusive to it"
Well, since everything you say becomes reality, perhaps you should say "I know how to comprehend the English language and take words in context."
Because clearly you can't grasp the fact that when I said "Portal also really only has a few sounds that are exclusive to it" that implies...that Portal only has a few SOUNDS that are exclusive. You know, just like the sentence reads? You do know how to read, right? I hope so. Anyway, exactly as the sentence says, Portal only had a handful of sounds that were exclusive to its title, such as the portals opening, falling through them etc.
And telling me that you think that the data should be made for L4D1 ,rather than made into L4D2, really doesn't have anything do with my saying that it is too much content for a DLC. In fact...it has nothing to do with it.
I do hope you learn to read someday.
"And telling me that you think that the data should be made for L4D1 ,rather than made into L4D2, really doesn't have anything do with my saying that it is too much content for a DLC."
That wasn't the point I was making, but as you bring it up, what exactly is YOUR point - that there is so much new content that it will only fit into an expansion for which consumers must pay full price? This is your argument as I read it, although due to my evident inability to manipulate the English language, one can never quite be sure (thank you for your concern). In which case, then, the argument mentioned has relevance.
Either way, I'll withdraw from this discussion now. You argue over semantics and make slurs on my character while contributing nothing interesting or new, and It tires me.
Even though it was by your doing that this discussion become somewhat heated, apparently things that you do tire you? Or being a ranting hypocrite might be what is tiring you as well. I still hope you do learn to read someday, it will definitely help you in the future.
Originally Posted by Jasozz If you had paid any attention the following post I admitted I made an error and corrected it, 8 GB of sound isn't a correct number. Secondly, my argument was that it would be too much data for a DLC, and you reinforced this. Thanks.
I paid plenty of attention thank you, I had actually started that message before you posted your correction, so sue me.
let me guess this was written before the interview? anyhow Im looking forward to L4D2 it looks like its going to be a lot better then its "daddy" as you put it with all the updates to it, that will make it more interactive. So ya I cant wait to get my hands on this. :)
Originally Posted by Jasozz If you had paid any attention the following post I admitted I made an error and corrected it, 8 GB of sound isn't a correct number. Secondly, my argument was that it would be too much data for a DLC, and you reinforced this. Thanks.
I paid plenty of attention thank you, I had actually started that message before you posted your correction, so sue me.
Originally Posted by Jasozz Okay, I can see where some of the complaints are coming from about L4D losing support, and unfulfilled promises etc.
But the claim that this could simply be a DLC pack is simply ridiculous. To back up this claim, I would like to present some evidence.
L4D1 featured a hell of alot of sounds. L4D1 has nearly 2.1 GB of sounds. This is with the current Director, and 4 characters. If Valve ended up making L4D1 characters playable in L4D2 like it has hinted at trying to, that would double this amount because you would now have 8 characters.
Then this number would become one third greater at least, because all of the dialogue between players (friendly fire, "Hey Bill, you should heal", etc.) would need to apply to all 8 characters: Bill should be able to talk to Rochelle, and Coach to Francis.
Even if we left L4D2 with only its 4 characters, we'll use 2.1 as a base number. But when you consider that Valve has already spoken that they are going to try and make character conversation much more complex, and changing based on situations, stress levels etc., that could easily double this number.
So now we have 4.2 GB. Then you consider we have whole new soundsets for some special infected (E.g. the Hunter can be heard with a new scream, etc) and then a whole new soundset for the uncommon-common, and the Charger's sounds.
So without taking into consideration ANY of the new 3D models, textures, scripted events, zombie and Director AI, maps, or music, we already could be looking at nearly 6-8 GB of a DLC just purely through sounds. This is larger than any priced DLC I've ever encountered, let alone free DLC"s.
Adding to this is the fact that Downloadable Content =/= Downloadable EntireGameAddon. Like it has been mentioned, Fallout 3 released packs of new areas and content, whereas L4D2 is an entire new game, with new maps, characters etc. So the argument of L4D2 being a DLC, imo, makes no sense.
If Valve made L4D characters playable in L4D2, it would require that they had an existing copy of L4D. On PC this would be installed. On 360, well. I assume the system would either be copy L4D to the drive, or when you want to play the old characters, whack the old game in. So your argument about sound sizes is, pretty much, entirely without base.
Textures etc with the source engine are hardly big.
Consider this: the entirety of the Orange box as textures, editors, models, objects, etc clocks in at 4.7gb. That's a hell of a lot more than would possibly be contained in L4D2 as a download.
L4D1 wasn't anywhere near that as a download. It barely hits 5gb extracted.
Originally Posted by HourBeforeDawn let me guess this was written before the interview? )
Nope. The interview was typed up the day that it was done and published a day or two after. This was written up on Monday based on notes and recordings and memories I made on the same day as the interview.
Really looking forward to this game, the melee system won't be that good anyway because if it was no one would use guns apart from tanks and smokers, I do agree with people saying it looks like they just wanna sell sequels instead of the content for the current game that they promised was to be released, I don't care either way though. One thing I want to point out about how big it could be as DLC is for people who will be buying on steam and stuff and I think valve should rethink how they distribute the games, instead of DLing the game with EVERY language you could ever want ie increasing both download time, HDD space and bandwidth issues for their servers, they should consider letting people choose which language to download it in and DL the other languages if they require them. I mean look at pirate copies of games and how many DVD9 games could be ripped to DVD5 by removing excess languages.
1. incendiary ammo is a feature in the first game (along with persistant statistics), however it has never been 'switched on'
2. the charger was an idea from the forum, the guy did sketches and everything. not saying its a bad thing, but makes you wonder what the design team have been doing except changing the skybox?
3. 'melee' system, did that really take a year to implement? Give a good modder an afternoon with the right tools and hey presto.
I mean, left4dead is worth the money definitely, cost me £25 I think. and I'm sure if you didn't have left4dead, left4dead 2 is worth the money.
But the question is, what really significant new things does left4dead 2 bring to the field that makes it worth 4 hours pay that I haven't already got with left4dead? The answer is, the new maps. More content is good. But then that comes straight back to what everyone has been moaning about, why isn't this DLC or an addon?
The whole debacle has largely put me off playing even left4dead the first, as I feel a bit short changed. Is 4 maps for a multiplayer game enough? For a full-price multiplayer game, nonetheless. (Remember, TF2 was part of the orange box where you got portal and half life 2 episode 2, for the same price there must have been combined about 30-40 maps I am guessing?).
Originally Posted by Dreaming 1. incendiary ammo is a feature in the first game (along with persistant statistics), however it has never been 'switched on'
2. the charger was an idea from the forum, the guy did sketches and everything. not saying its a bad thing, but makes you wonder what the design team have been doing except changing the skybox?
3. 'melee' system, did that really take a year to implement? Give a good modder an afternoon with the right tools and hey presto.
Lol, how do people keep forgetting about the five entire new campaigns? The detail, quality and scope of which could be 10 times that of L4D1?
It's almost as if people are picking up on a couple of the new features, and presuming that's all the devs have been up to. Doom 2 took id about a year to produce, just like L4D2. All it included was new enemies, one new gun and new levels. L4D2 is including far more new content than that, and Doom 2 is seen as an all-time classic.
I'm getting very tired of this argument now. L4D was a classic and wasn't remotely low on content, it had over 25 levels for god's sake. I've STILL not managed to complete it on Expert, and it's replayability factor is unrivalled. L4D2 will have even more. When a follow up has more content than the original, you can't claim it could be DLC.
Comments 26 to 50 of 56
ReplyBut the claim that this could simply be a DLC pack is simply ridiculous. To back up this claim, I would like to present some evidence.
L4D1 featured a hell of alot of sounds. L4D1 has nearly 2.1 GB of sounds. This is with the current Director, and 4 characters. If Valve ended up making L4D1 characters playable in L4D2 like it has hinted at trying to, that would double this amount because you would now have 8 characters. Then this number would become one third greater at least, because all of the dialogue between players (friendly fire, "Hey Bill, you should heal", etc.) would need to apply to all 8 characters: Bill should be able to talk to Rochelle, and Coach to Francis.
Even if we left L4D2 with only its 4 characters, we'll use 2.1 as a base number. But when you consider that Valve has already spoken that they are going to try and make character conversation much more complex, and changing based on situations, stress levels etc., that could easily double this number. So now we have 4.2 GB. Then you consider we have whole new soundsets for some special infected (E.g. the Hunter can be heard with a new scream, etc) and then a whole new soundset for the uncommon-common, and the Charger's sounds. So without taking into consideration ANY of the new 3D models, textures, scripted events, zombie and Director AI, maps, or music, we already could be looking at nearly 6-8 GB of a DLC just purely through sounds. This is larger than any priced DLC I've ever encountered, let alone free DLC"s.
Adding to this is the fact that Downloadable Content =/= Downloadable EntireGameAddon. Like it has been mentioned, Fallout 3 released packs of new areas and content, whereas L4D2 is an entire new game, with new maps, characters etc. So the argument of L4D2 being a DLC, imo, makes no sense.
Once again, sorry for the double post and my error in the above post.
Do you not think that the reason why the sounds took up so much space on L4D was because they had so much space to use? No point compressing sounds if you don't need to.
And if you really think Valve would be willing to put up to 8GB of sound on a DVD then you must be mad. They would need at least 2 DVDs in that case, not to mention how ridiculous it would be to download the full game from Steam
The fact of the matter is that Valve is the company that put The Orange Box on one DVD. One! I very much doubt L4D2 is going to have more sound than TOB, especially with all the commentaries.
Now, I don't know how big L4D is going to be, and I'm not even going to guess, because frankly, any estimates are based on assumptions since none of us work at Valve. I can't imagine it being that big, but I'm not going to pretend to know.
If you had paid any attention the following post I admitted I made an error and corrected it, 8 GB of sound isn't a correct number. Secondly, my argument was that it would be too much data for a DLC, and you reinforced this. Thanks.
I'm hesitant to join the ranks deploring the "fall of Valve" and such, but honestly. If this new game is "too large" to be considered a patch or DLC, that is because content that could easily have gone into L4D during post-development work since last years release has clearly been withheld. Support for L4D after release has frankly been almost non-existent, and now we know why. There are plenty of examples; the SDK taking almost a year to be released; the game still featuring gameplay issues and imbalances that ruin finales or crescendos in versus or campaign; the unspeakably poor server joining system that is still, infuriatingly, the only method of connecting to a game that doesn't involve using the dev console.
It may be good business practice, but it isn't commendable. In fact, it IS deplorable.
Your speculation on "recycled content" in Portal is fairly misguided as well. The game features different textures and materials, music and models, different enemies and different weapons, new AI and of course the portal gun's functionality.
Last time I checked, stating that one's point is invalid without offering any explanation doesn't exactly mean the same as "I've already explained why", unless you are really that full of yourself as to assume everything you say instantly becomes reality.
Furthermore, I take issue with the following sentence: "I didn't say all of the content in Portal was recycled"
When it would appear that by and large you did, not 15 minutes back.
"Portal also really only has a few sounds that are exclusive to it"
Because clearly you can't grasp the fact that when I said "Portal also really only has a few sounds that are exclusive to it" that implies...that Portal only has a few SOUNDS that are exclusive. You know, just like the sentence reads? You do know how to read, right? I hope so. Anyway, exactly as the sentence says, Portal only had a handful of sounds that were exclusive to its title, such as the portals opening, falling through them etc.
And telling me that you think that the data should be made for L4D1 ,rather than made into L4D2, really doesn't have anything do with my saying that it is too much content for a DLC. In fact...it has nothing to do with it.
I do hope you learn to read someday.
That wasn't the point I was making, but as you bring it up, what exactly is YOUR point - that there is so much new content that it will only fit into an expansion for which consumers must pay full price? This is your argument as I read it, although due to my evident inability to manipulate the English language, one can never quite be sure (thank you for your concern). In which case, then, the argument mentioned has relevance.
Either way, I'll withdraw from this discussion now. You argue over semantics and make slurs on my character while contributing nothing interesting or new, and It tires me.
I paid plenty of attention thank you, I had actually started that message before you posted your correction, so sue me.
Okay, I see. Sorry for the accusation.
As a L4D1 fan, I cant wait for L4D2, and believe the work they have done to deliver it is worth the money.
November is looking to be a good month for us PC gamers... COD MW2 + L4D2 + Starcraft 2 maybe... gamer heaven this xmas.
If Valve made L4D characters playable in L4D2, it would require that they had an existing copy of L4D. On PC this would be installed. On 360, well. I assume the system would either be copy L4D to the drive, or when you want to play the old characters, whack the old game in. So your argument about sound sizes is, pretty much, entirely without base.
Textures etc with the source engine are hardly big.
Consider this: the entirety of the Orange box as textures, editors, models, objects, etc clocks in at 4.7gb. That's a hell of a lot more than would possibly be contained in L4D2 as a download.
L4D1 wasn't anywhere near that as a download. It barely hits 5gb extracted.
tl;dr: Your reasoning is wrong.
Nope. The interview was typed up the day that it was done and published a day or two after. This was written up on Monday based on notes and recordings and memories I made on the same day as the interview.
You just ruined my day :(
2. the charger was an idea from the forum, the guy did sketches and everything. not saying its a bad thing, but makes you wonder what the design team have been doing except changing the skybox?
3. 'melee' system, did that really take a year to implement? Give a good modder an afternoon with the right tools and hey presto.
I mean, left4dead is worth the money definitely, cost me £25 I think. and I'm sure if you didn't have left4dead, left4dead 2 is worth the money.
But the question is, what really significant new things does left4dead 2 bring to the field that makes it worth 4 hours pay that I haven't already got with left4dead? The answer is, the new maps. More content is good. But then that comes straight back to what everyone has been moaning about, why isn't this DLC or an addon?
The whole debacle has largely put me off playing even left4dead the first, as I feel a bit short changed. Is 4 maps for a multiplayer game enough? For a full-price multiplayer game, nonetheless. (Remember, TF2 was part of the orange box where you got portal and half life 2 episode 2, for the same price there must have been combined about 30-40 maps I am guessing?).
Lol, how do people keep forgetting about the five entire new campaigns? The detail, quality and scope of which could be 10 times that of L4D1?
It's almost as if people are picking up on a couple of the new features, and presuming that's all the devs have been up to. Doom 2 took id about a year to produce, just like L4D2. All it included was new enemies, one new gun and new levels. L4D2 is including far more new content than that, and Doom 2 is seen as an all-time classic.
I'm getting very tired of this argument now. L4D was a classic and wasn't remotely low on content, it had over 25 levels for god's sake. I've STILL not managed to complete it on Expert, and it's replayability factor is unrivalled. L4D2 will have even more. When a follow up has more content than the original, you can't claim it could be DLC.
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