Mass Effect PC

Originally Posted by steveo_mcg
Or the most over rated depends on your point of view. And to miss out on one game is necessarily a hart ache when there is rich selection of titles to choose from just because your not playing "premium" titles doesn't mean your not enjoying all pc gaming has to offer in which case a (low end) dell and 360 isn't going to cut it.

I bought my PC to do many things on, gaming is one of them, banking is another, for that reason i will not allow its security to be compromised by a potentially malicious programme that i neither want nor need. As such i haven't installed bioshock or any thing else with similar protection methods, my loss perhaps but i have my reasons and while they may seem daft as long as every thing is trucking along nicely wait till they're not, can you say Starforce.

A very valid and well reasoned point. Unfortunately though it's one that also falls down in reality. If you are enjoying the gaming benefits of a PC and aren't retails games with copy protection (which is all of them nowadays, it's just Mass Effect, Spore and BioShock which are held up as high profile anti-EA/Take Two examples. Even Half-Life 2 and so on have DRM built in them via Steam and have to be acitvated online once every X playthroughs in offline mode.) then you are getting enjoyment elsewhere. I'm betting that enjoyment is indie, freeware, pirated or abandonware games - all of which are fringe benefits of being in the PC Gaming Master Race.

If that's the case though then you cann't non-hypocritically enjoy those benefits either - because there's always a risk of virus or adware and so forth, except those entities are under no obligations to tell you about it in advance. To argue security from that angle in this debate is flawed because if you really valued security on your PC then you wouldn't game on it at all. And you wouldn't connect it to the internet.

Besides, at the end of the day, EA doesn't care about your bank details. I've heard about Starforce jepordising systems before and causing crashes, but never publishing bank account details.

I always thought the 3 installations limit was for three installations at once, not ever. And it also begs the question, why install it twice just because you're dual booting? Just choose one and be done with it, you're hardly going to be waking up and thinking "Today I shall play Mass Effect through.... Vista." Come on, it's hardly a real problem.

Originally Posted by CardJoe

Quote:

Originally Posted by steveo_mcg
Or the most over rated depends on your point of view. And to miss out on one game is necessarily a hart ache when there is rich selection of titles to choose from just because your not playing "premium" titles doesn't mean your not enjoying all pc gaming has to offer in which case a (low end) dell and 360 isn't going to cut it.

I bought my PC to do many things on, gaming is one of them, banking is another, for that reason i will not allow its security to be compromised by a potentially malicious programme that i neither want nor need. As such i haven't installed bioshock or any thing else with similar protection methods, my loss perhaps but i have my reasons and while they may seem daft as long as every thing is trucking along nicely wait till they're not, can you say Starforce.

A very valid and well reasoned point. Unfortunately though it's one that also falls down in reality. If you are enjoying the gaming benefits of a PC and aren't retails games with copy protection (which is all of them nowadays, it's just Mass Effect, Spore and BioShock which are held up as high profile anti-EA/Take Two examples. Even Half-Life 2 and so on have DRM built in them via Steam and have to be acitvated online once every X playthroughs in offline mode.) then you are getting enjoyment elsewhere. I'm betting that enjoyment is indie, freeware, pirated or abandonware games - all of which are fringe benefits of being in the PC Gaming Master Race.

If that's the case though then you cann't non-hypocritically enjoy those benefits either - because there's always a risk of virus or adware and so forth, except those entities are under no obligations to tell you about it in advance. To argue security from that angle in this debate is flawed because if you really valued security on your PC then you wouldn't game on it at all. And you wouldn't connect it to the internet.

Besides, at the end of the day, EA doesn't care about your bank details. I've heard about Starforce jepordising systems before and causing crashes, but never publishing bank account details.

Agreed.

Truth is it is much easier to pirate PC games than any other gaming medium and with the onset of widespread broad band it has become even easier. Companies need to protect their product and while i'll agree that the copy protection used in SOME PC games isnt ideal i'll accept that because i love PC gaming.

Personally i dont agree with some of the copy protection Sony have employed in the music business (rootkits anyone). Nor do i agree with some of the ethics of companies such as Smithkline Beecham or Nestle, but i'll still buy Sony CD's, Beechams cold remedies or a tube of smarties.

cracking legally purchased games to make them playable ftw.

Originally Posted by crompers
Truth is it is much easier to pirate PC games than any other gaming medium and with the onset of widespread broad band it has become even easier. Companies need to protect their product and while i'll agree that the copy protection used in SOME PC games isnt ideal i'll accept that because i love PC gaming.

And then there's companies like stardock doing just fine without ANY copy protection

And easiest to pirate games on a PC? i assume you've never tried it on a DS/GBA with a flash cart before then? Now thats what you call easiest way to pirate without a doubt.

While it's debatable whether copy protection is needed at all, there is one real fact on the matter IMHO:

There is a point where copy protection gets so OTT it annoys more paying customers than it's worth.
I feel the PC industry as a whole passed that point a few months back and is happily speeding into draconian hell... If it drives away 2x paying customers for every pirated copy it prevents, what is the point of it? :(

Originally Posted by CardJoe
A very valid and well reasoned point. Unfortunately though it's one that also falls down in reality. If you are enjoying the gaming benefits of a PC and aren't retails games with copy protection (which is all of them nowadays, it's just Mass Effect, Spore and BioShock which are held up as high profile anti-EA/Take Two examples. Even Half-Life 2 and so on have DRM built in them via Steam and have to be acitvated online once every X playthroughs in offline mode.) then you are getting enjoyment elsewhere. I'm betting that enjoyment is indie, freeware, pirated or abandonware games - all of which are fringe benefits of being in the PC Gaming Master Race.

If that's the case though then you cann't non-hypocritically enjoy those benefits either - because there's always a risk of virus or adware and so forth, except those entities are under no obligations to tell you about it in advance. To argue security from that angle in this debate is flawed because if you really valued security on your PC then you wouldn't game on it at all. And you wouldn't connect it to the internet.

Besides, at the end of the day, EA doesn't care about your bank details. I've heard about Starforce jepordising systems before and causing crashes, but never publishing bank account details.

True, but i can remove steam very easily, i can remove indie, freeware (with a fair degree of certainty) easily. And tbh its not EA i worry about from the security point, although its entirely at there mercy weather i could play the game in the future as it is with steam.

The point towards the the starforce was that few complained about until it turned out it was killing optical drives and the people that did complain were told to put there tin hats back on and its tough "its teh future".

Securom is nightmare to remove, involving registry hacks and booting into safe mode also it is not removed with the software it is installed to protect.
Now, imagine if you will a security hole appears in Securom, i know its a bit far fetched but the we've seen how holes can appear in any software (even software designed for security). Now you have a program which is designed to be all but invisible to the user and which is difficult to remove even by anti virus software, and i'm betting unsupported by the publisher or dev and barely supported by the software writer. Which is for example a back door for any number of nasty ware, Windows is already a bit of pain to keep up with security patches, as indicated by the number of bots in the various bot nets which are XP based, Securom is just another potential hole, all set up to hide from the user and pre designed to phone home.

Any way this is entirely besides the point and off topic, if any one wants to continue this there are another dozen better places with out crapping on the review thread.

Originally Posted by cyrilthefish
While it's debatable whether copy protection is needed at all, there is one real fact on the matter IMHO:

There is a point where copy protection gets so OTT it annoys more paying customers than it's worth.
I feel the PC industry as a whole passed that point a few months back and is happily speeding into draconian hell... If it drives away 2x paying customers for every pirated copy it prevents, what is the point of it? :(

First of all on the point DS/GBA i agree.

I'm not sure it does drive away two paying customers for every pirated copy to be honest. But i think if people continue to make such a big deal out of it then it may well in the future.

Maybe then companies will stop using copy protection and the pirates will have their way with every game with no attempt to stop it, then companies that have got it right in the past (steam etc.) will go down the pan together with the rest of the industry

Or the world at large will realise that piracy is bad (mkay) and we'll all live in a utopia where everyone respects intellectual property, children dont go hungry and war is a distant memory.

Somehow I think the outcome will be more grey than black and white

Does the Copy Protection require the DVD to be in the drive to play it? If so does it read the DVD at all during gameplay?

Originally Posted by crompers
First of all on the point DS/GBA i agree.

I'm not sure it does drive away two paying customers for every pirated copy to be honest. But i think if people continue to make such a big deal out of it then it may well in the future.

Maybe then companies will stop using copy protection and the pirates will have their way with every game with no attempt to stop it, then companies that have got it right in the past (steam etc.) will go down the pan together with the rest of the industry

Or the world at large will realise that piracy is bad (mkay) and we'll all live in a utopia where everyone respects intellectual property, children dont go hungry and war is a distant memory.

Somehow I think the outcome will be more grey than black and white

At the end of the day you have to realise that piracy cannot be 100% stopped. fact.
A Utopia like you suggest would be nice, if it weren't impossible.

Same as other sorts of crime, no matter how ridiculous you make the police protecting things, you cannot make things 100% crime free... and i'd rather not live in a police state even if i'm innocent.

there needs to be a balance, enough security/police/whatever to prevent crime without going OTT and affecting all the paying/law-abiding people. the current balance is way off into to the OTT stage at the moment.

Greetings!

Originally Posted by CardJoe
Even Half-Life 2 and so on have DRM built in them via Steam and have to be acitvated online once every X playthroughs in offline mode.

Does HL2 have limited installations?

Originally Posted by Bauul
I always thought the 3 installations limit was for three installations at once, not ever.

Its a "three strikes and you are out" policy.
The purchase of Mass Effect-PC entitles you to three installations of the game. You dont purchase the game, you purchase the right to install it three times.
EA has not clarified what upgrades to your system provokes the game into thinking its in a second installation, or even if installing and uninstalling the game in the same system three times expends your three limited installs (moderators from Biowares forum assume that since the game was installed in the same OS, the leftovers files from SecuROM keep track of the installation).
To get a fourth installation you need to call EA Support.

Originally Posted by LeMaltor
Does the Copy Protection require the DVD to be in the drive to play it?

No. You dont need to have the game DVD in the drive.

I guess it comes down to why you are boycotting copy protected games (or games which are copy protected by a certain piece of software, which you have decided is worse than the rest).

If it is from a moralistic standpoint in that you do not agree with being treated "like a criminal" then although my feelings on the subject are clearly nowhere near as passionate as yours i can see where you are coming from.

If it is that you feel the basic functionality of the product is broken or is causing you great hardship when trying to use it then in my personal experience you are over reacting

Impar: I've installed my one purchased copy of BioShock on several different machines and installations (well over 10, that's for sure) and I've never had a problem with the copy protection. I bought my copy from play.com.

Originally Posted by Tim S
Impar: I've installed my one purchased copy of BioShock on several different machines and installations (well over 10, that's for sure) and I've never had a problem with the copy protection. I bought my copy from play.com.

they patched the bioshock copy protection to give you the installs back if the old ones arent used.

Greetings!

Originally Posted by crompers
I guess it comes down to why you are boycotting copy protected games...

Am not boycotting copy protected games (if I was I wouldnt buy any game), am boycotting games with limited installations.

Originally Posted by CardJoe
Really? I can only remember mentioning it in Crysis and this. Sorry! The problem here was the dual effect of graininess and blurriness though

Well, Joe, you were praising how cinematic this game is, and you turned off motion blur?
I think there's nothing more cinematic than that. Have you ever seen a movie without motion blur?

Originally Posted by naokaji
cracking legally purchased games to make them playable ftw.

Sadly, I had to go down that road many times. Copy protection systems like Mass Effect's really give me a serious headache.

if i can find a way to remove the copy protection , I'll buy this game in a heartbeat.. that is... once I fix my windows installation :( :: grumbles about corrupted ntdll's ::

It only exists to hide the complete lack of anti-aliasing.

Are you saying this game doesn't support anti-aliasing? What about anisotropic filtering? Its not the UE3 engine is it?

It is the UE3 engine, which has never supported anti-aliasing as far as I know.

Originally Posted by Mentai
It is the UE3 engine, which has never supported anti-aliasing as far as I know.

What is it with this myth that the UE3 engine doesn't support AA? In pretty much every review of a UE3 game I see either in the review itself or in the comments "It doesn't support AA in DX9". It works just fine in bioshock and UT3, although you have to enable it through the nvidia control panel. Dunno about ATI though.

I don't fear copy protection and have got the game preordered (ships 6/02, dang it!). The real question is does this game have self shadowing? There's been some hubbub on the forums (based on trailers and screenshots) that none of the self shadowing in the 360 version is present. Is this true?

Also, only ~30 frames per second on that rig? Seems a little demanding, no? I expect 40-50+ on UE3 games. I've got an 8800/e8400. Will I be able to place this on 'full' at a decent clip?
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Originally Posted by Keivz
I don't fear copy protection and have got the game preordered (ships 6/02, dang it!). The real question is does this game have self shadowing? There's been some hubbub on the forums (based on trailers and screenshots) that none of the self shadowing in the 360 version is present. Is this true?

Also, only ~30 frames per second on that rig? Seems a little demanding, no? I expect 40-50+ on UE3 games. I've got an 8800/e8400. Will I be able to place this on 'full' at a decent clip?
---

I'm not sure if the version reviewed is final code? if not it could be optimised before release.

all depends what resolution you're planning on running aswell of course

Bioware employees have indicated that when the servers at EA are offline it will be impossible to activate the game. Derick French, an employee of Bioware has stated that if EA takes the servers off line permanently then a patch will be released to remove the online activation requirement. However, neither EA nor Bioware have made any legally binding commitment to releasing such a patch.

So it could be that in a couple of years the servers get switched off, the patch isn't released, and your game gets dumped in the bin.

Result!! Err.... :(

Originally Posted by Keivz
Also, only ~30 frames per second on that rig? Seems a little demanding, no? I expect 40-50+ on UE3 games. I've got an 8800/e8400. Will I be able to place this on 'full' at a decent clip?
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As far as I can tell from the screenshots, they we're playing @ 1920x1200. If it's pulling 30 fps, I'd say it's a good number.
That's a pretty high resolution.

Originally Posted by Multiplectic

Quote:

Originally Posted by Keivz
Also, only ~30 frames per second on that rig? Seems a little demanding, no? I expect 40-50+ on UE3 games. I've got an 8800/e8400. Will I be able to place this on 'full' at a decent clip?
---

As far as I can tell from the screenshots, they we're playing @ 1920x1200. If it's pulling 30 fps, I'd say it's a good number.
That's a pretty high resolution.

yep that seems about right, be no probs getting it to run @ 60 on 1280x1024

Very few people ever install a game mroe then a couple times, a patch is going to be released after awhile disabling the 3 install limit. Talk about overreacting. Who said you had to call EA? Ever hear of e-mail? Worst case, buy the game and get a crack after, pirating is the dumest thing you can do, will only make things even worse and hurt the PC more. Peopel act like this DRM will make their PC's blowup, ridiculous, 99% of people will install the game and play without even noticing the DRM being there. typical tin foil hat BS paranoia. I have been gaming on PC since the 80s and Police quest games, I think maybe once I had to install a game more the 3 times, really, you upgrade every month to a new MOBO?