Originally Posted by airchie One thing, how does installing on a raid controller work?
Will I need to do something similar to what is needed in XP (the press F6 thing?)
Well, a hardware raid controller makes life easy. Mostly their drivers are in kernel (the ones I played around with anyways). In Linux all devices are listed under /dev, and the raid array was listed under /dev/cciss/c0d0p# so just another way of addressing them.
Quote:
Originally Posted by geek1017 Someone please cut through the BS and just tell me how I can have a desktop with an icon that I click and run a game like UT2k4 or HL2 without any command line.
Well, download a Ubuntu Live CD and see for yourself... It has Icons, just as Windows does...
Quote:
Originally Posted by pendragon with hardware support its just not there IMHO and WINE and other extra layers of hardware communication can cause problems 'n whatnot
Well, WINE and Cedega run in userspace, not kernelspace. So not a lot can go wrong at all. Either it works or it doesn't, and offers a great deal of security. Being userland and run as non priviledged user few things can go wrong. So don't fear too much problems.
Hardware support isn't that bad in my experience, but then again I don't have 500 to invest into a graphic card.
Originally Posted by Ramble It's not just the lack of good games, it's also the HUGE amount of work you have to do just to get them to run.
Hmm, not sure what you mean. I'll give an example. Cedega is installed and configured in 5 minutes, Then you just install the game you want inside Cedega (point and click interface), and games like HL2, CNC3,... just run (through shortcuts in the Cedega interface, point and click). If you call that a HUGE amount of work, then we have different definitions of huge.
Originally Posted by Tom Hill Having installed Sauerbraten this morning, I can't say I was too impressed. Aside from the fact that Ubuntu required an obscure library to be installed (libsdlmixer1.2?) before I could run the game, the sound was very crackly even when I did get it going.
Not only that, there was no widescreen support (though the -w and -h options on the console could probably provide this, it wouldn't take much to put it in the menus, would it?), the graphical effects didn't look up to the standard of the screenshots -- again I could probably spend a day or two editing the shell script that runs the game, but I really couldn't be bothered.. Why?
NO mouse sensitivity options. I could barely turn. What sort of 'frag-fest' FPS doesn't have controls (in the menus or _anywhere_) to adjust the mouse sensitivity?!
Read the WIKI for Cube. Quality: turn on anti-aliasing...and look at the maps with the new textures. Widescreen: no other game allows you the control over resolution that sauer provides with the -w and -h commands. Mouse: I believe that mousesensitivity is a command as well (3 is default, if my memory serves correctly). Sound:That library is needed for sound mixing. If your hardware sucks (or its support for SDL or FMOD sucks), then your sound will crackle.
Quite honestly, you shouldn't complain that you can't get the game configured to your liking when you aren't even trying. There is very little Sauerbraten cannot do, given a bit of patience.
Thanks for the game links Glider. Good article ;) I'll have to try that flying game.
However, for the cost of a year's subscription from Transgaming I can buy an OEM copy of XP and save myself a lot of hassle trying to get the latest game to work (as well as have almost guaranteed driver support.
Originally Posted by airchie I really liked the article.
Its opened my eyes a bit to linux again and I'm gonna install ubuntu when I get home probably.
One thing, how does installing on a raid controller work?
Will I need to do something similar to what is needed in XP (the press F6 thing?)
Hell, I may even format my machine and try it out... :D
Woah, stop right there dude. If you're using an on-board RAID controller, chances are it's what the Linux world calls 'fakeraid'.
It's not real RAID (which doesn't require a 'driver' as such -- it spoofs the drive as just another single volume), and it's not quite a simple drive controller -- the 'RAID' you get with on-board motherboards is quite-simply, software RAID on a multiport controller.. Implemented with a ROM menu and supported by a Windows driver.
Now I'm living proof that you can get Ubuntu (and probably other distributions) working on fakeraid arrays. It's FAR from simple though, and if you don't fancy piecing together the method of doing it from multiple Ubuntu Wiki articles and forum posts, I don't recommend even attempting. I had to use Ubuntu's Alternate Install CD for a start, and was continuously swapping out of the installer to a console to download and install the dmraid (et cetera) packages, and also configure grub manually.
Without Ubuntu's baseline package management it'd probably be nigh-on impossible, but thankfully it is do-able.
99.9% of experienced Linux users will say, 'Don't bother, use Linux's software RAID if you absolutely must', but for my own reasons I have had to. And it works quite well.
If you're serious about installing a Linux distro (Ubuntu's your best bet, especially when 7.04 'Feisty Fawn' is released on the 19th), then there's some essential reading (in order):
FakeRaidHowTo (written for Dapper, but describes the main beef of the procedure) FakeRaidEdgy (updated for the latest 6.10 Edgy release; the grub confiig is weak though, refer to the original article for that) Invaluable fakeraid thread (this really filled in the gaps present between BOTH articles for me -- I think someone's updated the wikis, but definitely read ALL of this)
Originally Posted by TRG Read the WIKI for Cube. Quality: turn on anti-aliasing...and look at the maps with the new textures. Widescreen: no other game allows you the control over resolution that sauer provides with the -w and -h commands. Mouse: I believe that mousesensitivity is a command as well (3 is default, if my memory serves correctly). Sound:That library is needed for sound mixing. If your hardware sucks (or its support for SDL or FMOD sucks), then your sound will crackle.
Quite honestly, you shouldn't complain that you can't get the game configured to your liking when you aren't even trying. There is very little Sauerbraten cannot do, given a bit of patience.
I'm sorry, the Wiki's awful. The README supplied with the game was pathetic, and that's all you get on the website too.
There was much more than AA missing from the maps, and yes, I'm running a 7800GS with the latest Nvidia driver (9755 as of writing). WoP actually included a way of specifying a custom widescreen resolution IN THE GAME -- it can't be particularly hard to implement simple options like this, especially when they're already implemented in Cube2.
I'm complaining because I shouldn't have to spend time configuring the game via a command-line to set up simple things like mouse sensitivity and resolution! It's pathetic! The game designers of Sauerbretan have a lot ot learn about creating games for the general public (as-opposed to CLI nerds).
The game has potential and the best part is it's free, but it's got a long way to go before looking down on its rivals.
I too have always had a fasination for linux for a long time now and it was only recently that i got my head arround the whole distro thing. The only thing that was stopping me at the time was gaming (at the time). However my needs have changed since i was younger. I need commercial software to be able to run on my machiene now-a-days such as AutoCAD and a program called Suunto Dive Manager.
Im currently on a hunt to see if those programs will work in WINE or the program fork of Cedega
Woah, interesting. I guess I didn't really know anything about the Linux gaming scene. The thing I don't get it is: if you want to play games, why not install and/or dual boot Windows? Why put yourself through the hassle of emulators and drivers just to play some BF2/HL2? Of course, Linux is much more suited to do other things than Windows, but my point is if your primary reason to build a PC is to play games, then the OS to install ain't Linux.
Originally Posted by Tom Hill I thought CrossOver Linux might be a bit better, but their support for AutoCAD looks a little lacklustre :(
thanks for the check, its a bit annoying to say the least considering that AutoCAD used to provide a version for Mac and Linux in the past. That and the fact that the software isnt cheap by any means (read $3000 upwards).
Im still going to give linux a try later on especially when DX10 support comes out. I have no inteneition of migrating over to vista at this moment in time so itll be interesting to see how my opinions change in the future.
And as for why youd want to run linux to play games?....
COST of windows.
Originally Posted by Soulmage If I am not mistaken (unless they changed it) the CVS version of Cedega (while a bit harder to install) is free isn't it?
Yeah, true, CVS version is free, but I read somewhere that the CVS isn't the last version, and has limited functionality... I'll try to refind the article for you
EDIT:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wiki Though Cedega is mainly proprietary software, Transgaming does make part of the source publicly available via CVS, under a mix of licenses. Though this is mainly done to allow a means for non-TG staff to view and submit fixes to the code, it is also frequently used as a means to obtain a sort-of 'demo' version of Cedega. Due to complaints of the difficulty of building a usable version of the program from the public CVS, as well as its outdated nature, Transgaming released a proper demo of Cedega. The demo released by Cedega gave users a 14-day trial of a reasonably current version of the product with a watermark of the Cedega logo which faded from almost transparent to fully opaque every few seconds. This demo was removed without comment and it is not clear if it will be re-released in the future.
Note that while the licenses under which the code is released do permit non-commercial redistribution of precompiled public-CVS versions of the software, Transgaming strongly discourages this, openly warning that the license of TG-copyrighted sections of code will be changed if they feel abuse is occurring or otherwise threatened. Transgaming similarly discourages source-based distributions like Gentoo Linux from creating automated tools to let people build their own version of Cedega from the public CVS.
Originally Posted by Glider Well, WINE and Cedega run in userspace, not kernelspace. So not a lot can go wrong at all. Either it works or it doesn't, and offers a great deal of security. Being userland and run as non priviledged user few things can go wrong. So don't fear too much problems.
Hardware support isn't that bad in my experience, but then again I don't have 500 to invest into a graphic card.
Perhaps I don't know what I'm talking about.. however I point you to this
Quote:
Originally Posted by from hardocp.com article In addition, these are not the only problems I had with gaming on Linux. SuperTux recognized my joy pad, but I had no ability to configure it. The various emulators that I used to run older-game ROMs would work, but would not recognize the joypad, or simply would not work at all, or would only launch after being in the background 10 minutes.
Unless you're playing Quake 4, and only Quake 4 (possibly Unreal Tournament), gaming on Linux is a poor proposition.
which makes me stop and say... hey, if I try to game on Linux to play the PC games that 90% of the world is out there playing it'll largely be a lot harder than if I just run it on windows [shrugs]
Originally Posted by pendragon which makes me stop and say... hey, if I try to game on Linux to play the PC games that 90% of the world is out there playing it'll largely be a lot harder than if I just run it on windows [shrugs]
Running native Linux games are as easy as native Windows games... As I said in the article, the Wine or Cedega API adds an extra thing in the equation, but anybody with basic PC knowledge and the ability to type into a Google input box will get 99% of the games up and running in a short timespan.
But you are correct, it takes more effort to install Windows only games in Linux, but it isn't like in the article you linked to. And having a quick read through the article I get a *shrug* feeling... Appart from getting some facts plain wrong and highlighting all the negative things, the author didn't even take the effort to look to the reasons underlying the problems he encountered, like with his networking card. Linux isn't as foolproof as Windows, that is a known fact. Some HW manufacturers (like TI) just ignore the Linux users, making it a lot harder to offer up to date support. Don't blame the Linux community for that, blame the HW manufacturers.
well first of id like to say thanks for "supplying" me with some free games that will work on my meger hardware, and ive been toying with the idea for some while (after a rebuild) of a linux only gaming pc, the only thing i havnt been able to do is setup steam. All the guides refer in the exe where the current downlaod is a msi, and i get errors left right and center trying to use msiexec /i SteamInstall.msi . Looking forward to future articles
Originally Posted by Glider but anybody with basic PC knowledge and the ability to type into a Google input box will get 99% of the games up and running in a short timespan.
Uh. 99% of games from a decade ago, maybe. Otherwise, that statement is nowhere near true.
Originally Posted by Emon Uh. 99% of games from a decade ago, maybe. Otherwise, that statement is nowhere near true.
stick with windows if thats your view you are perfectly welcome to
I think your "statement is nowhere near true" if you would like to look at this cedega database and as you will be able to see theres alot of recent releases including c&c3 and stalker
The problem is that until developers work like the UT teams at Epic and make a Linux installer that works off the bat gamers aren't going to change, that's why Microsoft have such a stronghold over gamers, developers won't make stuff work better on Linux until there's a demand for it, There won't be a demand for it until they work easily and properly on Linux.
If you work it out, each cycle of Windows should have a 5 year cycle, so assuming you buy an OEM copy of Windows Vista for your new machine, you'll be looking at around £115 (call it £120 inc delivery). So that works out at £24 per year.
If you buy a Cedega subscription you're looking at £33 per year, so over the same product cycle you're paying £165, that's £45 more
And if you don't want to fork out more and use Wine, then frankly it's a lot of hassle which in todays society gamers don't want, gamers are becoming fast paced, arcade action junkies, they want quick easy and get straight into the game.
And yes, Linux has games, but if you want to play against your friends, you'll need to say to them "Have you got X?" "Err, you what?", so you'll have to explain to them, get them to download it, fiddle around with it and get it to work.
i would love to use linux as my main OS, we have a mythtv box in the living room, and its just amazing, compared to windows media center, which just sucks ass so badly.
My housemate runs linux on his spanky ASUS A6 series laptop, and what that means is his onboard VGA camera doesn't work, the ACPI is buggy and crashes when he switches between PSU and battery power, the bluetooth doesn't work, etc etc etc.
So he uses windows for WoW, and i just use windows full stop. I tried to get Battlefield 2 working under linux - and did, but then with limited overclocking potential for my graphics card under linux - i just had to go back to windows.
Most, if not all things can be done in linux now, its come a long way from the old days - but in this day and age, with Vista being such a highly stable and solid OS, it makes more sense for me to virtualise my Linux experience.
VMWare player, with a nice tidy Ubuntu installation running mythfrontend, and i'm away, watching HD streams recorded live on the box downstairs, and accessible to all the linux boxes in the house. Very cool.
However, its nice to come out of that, and return to windows, where, lets face it, everything just works, first time, no config, no restarting of x, in most cases, a reboot is all thats required.
i can confirm this is the case, although memory management is an issue, and as my housemate alt-tabs out to firefox to check on prices on various geek-related WoW sites, he uses windows as linux tends to crash x when alt-tabbing backwards and forwards.
If you were on linux and wanted to run windows games dual booting is still the way to go. You could even get an oem vista basic licence, and over the two three years it would be cheaper than cedega and run all your games flawlessly.
Although I've tried linux I couldn't get on with it (at the end of the day, it *isnt* as easy to use and configure as windows for the average person), but I was excited to see Mandriva 2007 include gaming support. Although as soon as I installed it I couldn't get the nice cube thing because ATI have problems with linux or something (the mandriva install blurb said it would install drivers itself, but it didnt, so I downloaded something from ATI and tried double clicking to no avail - everything must be done from the console!).
So, getting there, but still not there. I think you still need to have a good knowledge of computers to use it properly, whenever I've asked a simple question 'how do I get my wireless card to work' then normally the linux geeks just reply with commands :p. Why can't it be interface driven :(. Whilst the console gives you a lot of power, it is an old way of interacting with software, and it cant be that hard to just make options screen for everything that does it for you?
Ubuntu has the right philosophy - it should just work.
p.s. you were saying in the article that Vista has a lot of bad press, which in a way it does, but personally having been using it it's one of the best OS I've ever used. It does just work, plug something in and the drivers are there straight away.
Originally Posted by DougEdey The problem is that until developers work like the UT teams at Epic and make a Linux installer that works off the bat gamers aren't going to change, that's why Microsoft have such a stronghold over gamers, developers won't make stuff work better on Linux until there's a demand for it, There won't be a demand for it until they work easily and properly on Linux.
If you work it out, each cycle of Windows should have a 5 year cycle, so assuming you buy an OEM copy of Windows Vista for your new machine, you'll be looking at around £115 (call it £120 inc delivery). So that works out at £24 per year.
If you buy a Cedega subscription you're looking at £33 per year, so over the same product cycle you're paying £165, that's £45 more
That's for vista ultimate, which if you just wanted windows purely for games, is a waste of money. For £55 you get vista basic which will run any windows only apps you need, and crucially, still has dx10 support. Of course you don't get Aero, media centre, or the advanced networking tools - however if you're using linux and just switch to windows for the purpose of running a game, then it makes perfect sense.
p.s in the article you say about the bloat in vista, and I've found it does use more memory, however - it uses more memory to speed up the computer, so doing the same things in Vista is faster than in XP (except for memory or cpu intensive single things). I can be running media centre, encoding a dvd, msn, internet explorer, with no slow down, and be using 800mb ram (which when 1gb can be had for £50 now, isn't that bad).
Comments 26 to 50 of 78
ReplyHardware support isn't that bad in my experience, but then again I don't have 500 to invest into a graphic card.
No-one is saying Linux has games, it's just that none of them are really worth it compared to some Windows games (Crysis, HL2, CNC3).
Read the WIKI for Cube.
Quality: turn on anti-aliasing...and look at the maps with the new textures.
Widescreen: no other game allows you the control over resolution that sauer provides with the -w and -h commands.
Mouse: I believe that mousesensitivity is a command as well (3 is default, if my memory serves correctly).
Sound:That library is needed for sound mixing. If your hardware sucks (or its support for SDL or FMOD sucks), then your sound will crackle.
Quite honestly, you shouldn't complain that you can't get the game configured to your liking when you aren't even trying. There is very little Sauerbraten cannot do, given a bit of patience.
However, for the cost of a year's subscription from Transgaming I can buy an OEM copy of XP and save myself a lot of hassle trying to get the latest game to work (as well as have almost guaranteed driver support.
It's not real RAID (which doesn't require a 'driver' as such -- it spoofs the drive as just another single volume), and it's not quite a simple drive controller -- the 'RAID' you get with on-board motherboards is quite-simply, software RAID on a multiport controller.. Implemented with a ROM menu and supported by a Windows driver.
Now I'm living proof that you can get Ubuntu (and probably other distributions) working on fakeraid arrays. It's FAR from simple though, and if you don't fancy piecing together the method of doing it from multiple Ubuntu Wiki articles and forum posts, I don't recommend even attempting. I had to use Ubuntu's Alternate Install CD for a start, and was continuously swapping out of the installer to a console to download and install the dmraid (et cetera) packages, and also configure grub manually.
Without Ubuntu's baseline package management it'd probably be nigh-on impossible, but thankfully it is do-able.
99.9% of experienced Linux users will say, 'Don't bother, use Linux's software RAID if you absolutely must', but for my own reasons I have had to. And it works quite well.
If you're serious about installing a Linux distro (Ubuntu's your best bet, especially when 7.04 'Feisty Fawn' is released on the 19th), then there's some essential reading (in order):
FakeRaidHowTo (written for Dapper, but describes the main beef of the procedure)
FakeRaidEdgy (updated for the latest 6.10 Edgy release; the grub confiig is weak though, refer to the original article for that)
Invaluable fakeraid thread (this really filled in the gaps present between BOTH articles for me -- I think someone's updated the wikis, but definitely read ALL of this)
Good luck ;)
There was much more than AA missing from the maps, and yes, I'm running a 7800GS with the latest Nvidia driver (9755 as of writing). WoP actually included a way of specifying a custom widescreen resolution IN THE GAME -- it can't be particularly hard to implement simple options like this, especially when they're already implemented in Cube2.
I'm complaining because I shouldn't have to spend time configuring the game via a command-line to set up simple things like mouse sensitivity and resolution! It's pathetic! The game designers of Sauerbretan have a lot ot learn about creating games for the general public (as-opposed to CLI nerds).
The game has potential and the best part is it's free, but it's got a long way to go before looking down on its rivals.
Im currently on a hunt to see if those programs will work in WINE or the program fork of Cedega
thanks for the check, its a bit annoying to say the least considering that AutoCAD used to provide a version for Mac and Linux in the past. That and the fact that the software isnt cheap by any means (read $3000 upwards).
Im still going to give linux a try later on especially when DX10 support comes out. I have no inteneition of migrating over to vista at this moment in time so itll be interesting to see how my opinions change in the future.
And as for why youd want to run linux to play games?....
COST of windows.
EDIT:
Perhaps I don't know what I'm talking about.. however I point you to this
which makes me stop and say... hey, if I try to game on Linux to play the PC games that 90% of the world is out there playing it'll largely be a lot harder than if I just run it on windows [shrugs]
But you are correct, it takes more effort to install Windows only games in Linux, but it isn't like in the article you linked to. And having a quick read through the article I get a *shrug* feeling... Appart from getting some facts plain wrong and highlighting all the negative things, the author didn't even take the effort to look to the reasons underlying the problems he encountered, like with his networking card. Linux isn't as foolproof as Windows, that is a known fact. Some HW manufacturers (like TI) just ignore the Linux users, making it a lot harder to offer up to date support. Don't blame the Linux community for that, blame the HW manufacturers.
stick with windows if thats your view you are perfectly welcome to
I think your "statement is nowhere near true" if you would like to look at this cedega database and as you will be able to see theres alot of recent releases including c&c3 and stalker
If you work it out, each cycle of Windows should have a 5 year cycle, so assuming you buy an OEM copy of Windows Vista for your new machine, you'll be looking at around £115 (call it £120 inc delivery). So that works out at £24 per year.
If you buy a Cedega subscription you're looking at £33 per year, so over the same product cycle you're paying £165, that's £45 more
And if you don't want to fork out more and use Wine, then frankly it's a lot of hassle which in todays society gamers don't want, gamers are becoming fast paced, arcade action junkies, they want quick easy and get straight into the game.
And yes, Linux has games, but if you want to play against your friends, you'll need to say to them "Have you got X?" "Err, you what?", so you'll have to explain to them, get them to download it, fiddle around with it and get it to work.
Ease of use > *
http://www.blizzplanet.com/content/459/
My housemate runs linux on his spanky ASUS A6 series laptop, and what that means is his onboard VGA camera doesn't work, the ACPI is buggy and crashes when he switches between PSU and battery power, the bluetooth doesn't work, etc etc etc.
So he uses windows for WoW, and i just use windows full stop. I tried to get Battlefield 2 working under linux - and did, but then with limited overclocking potential for my graphics card under linux - i just had to go back to windows.
Most, if not all things can be done in linux now, its come a long way from the old days - but in this day and age, with Vista being such a highly stable and solid OS, it makes more sense for me to virtualise my Linux experience.
VMWare player, with a nice tidy Ubuntu installation running mythfrontend, and i'm away, watching HD streams recorded live on the box downstairs, and accessible to all the linux boxes in the house. Very cool.
However, its nice to come out of that, and return to windows, where, lets face it, everything just works, first time, no config, no restarting of x, in most cases, a reboot is all thats required.
i can confirm this is the case, although memory management is an issue, and as my housemate alt-tabs out to firefox to check on prices on various geek-related WoW sites, he uses windows as linux tends to crash x when alt-tabbing backwards and forwards.
Although I've tried linux I couldn't get on with it (at the end of the day, it *isnt* as easy to use and configure as windows for the average person), but I was excited to see Mandriva 2007 include gaming support. Although as soon as I installed it I couldn't get the nice cube thing because ATI have problems with linux or something (the mandriva install blurb said it would install drivers itself, but it didnt, so I downloaded something from ATI and tried double clicking to no avail - everything must be done from the console!).
So, getting there, but still not there. I think you still need to have a good knowledge of computers to use it properly, whenever I've asked a simple question 'how do I get my wireless card to work' then normally the linux geeks just reply with commands :p. Why can't it be interface driven :(. Whilst the console gives you a lot of power, it is an old way of interacting with software, and it cant be that hard to just make options screen for everything that does it for you?
Ubuntu has the right philosophy - it should just work.
p.s. you were saying in the article that Vista has a lot of bad press, which in a way it does, but personally having been using it it's one of the best OS I've ever used. It does just work, plug something in and the drivers are there straight away.
That's for vista ultimate, which if you just wanted windows purely for games, is a waste of money. For £55 you get vista basic which will run any windows only apps you need, and crucially, still has dx10 support. Of course you don't get Aero, media centre, or the advanced networking tools - however if you're using linux and just switch to windows for the purpose of running a game, then it makes perfect sense.
p.s in the article you say about the bloat in vista, and I've found it does use more memory, however - it uses more memory to speed up the computer, so doing the same things in Vista is faster than in XP (except for memory or cpu intensive single things). I can be running media centre, encoding a dvd, msn, internet explorer, with no slow down, and be using 800mb ram (which when 1gb can be had for £50 now, isn't that bad).
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