Originally Posted by xPaladin The only thing that could dethrone CS with ease is a graphical-only remake of Action Quake 2.
AQ2 only really died because of all the Half-Life hype that bolstered CS. AQ2 was just such a superior mod.
Mad props to you, its rare that I see someone mention one of the greatest (and most overlooked) mods at a time where mods gave gamers a reason to keep playing that older game and mod authors actually stuck with the mod instead of hyping everyone up to just release the beta, because that's all you had time for (which goes on way too much these days). I always wished someone would remake ActionQuake 2 as much as Team Fortress has been remaid so many times. It was such an original concept, yet so simple at the same time.
Anyways, back to the thread. I've been playing games since calling into BBS's and playing 4-player Doom over a 14.4bps modem (oh yeah, IPX wasn't the only way to get more than a 2 player DM going in Doom, but since the Internet wasn't accessibly to anyone outside of gov, edu, or medical profession you'd never know). Obviously, who wouldn't get hooked. Then Quake solidified it. Here's the deal with CS. It was the first to provide a true-to-life (well as close as possible) tactical experience. It shuned away the arcade-like gameplay of regular Quake DM, Half-Life DM, etc... for a more realistic experience. We were all used to getting rocketed in the face or riddled with nails for 10 seconds that the first time we got killed by one single bullet from a pistol (remember? there were no head-shots until CS [unless you count Team Fortress mod for Quake, but that was only for the Sniper class]) it really made us pause for a second...
No immediate respawning, guns weren't just left around and had to be bought, your individual ownage meant jack if your team lost, these were all new to us, used to that "Oh I'm dead, damn, I'll just respawn and chase my killer down since he's 10hp away from death." Random shooting wasn't an option, you had to make shots count. Hell, for the first time we couldn't constantly run (unless you wanted everyone to know where you are at all times).
My point is, that's why people get so passionate about CS. That's why people thrash on CS:S. In all honestly, it took a step back. Now I'm not talking about the physics because that actually adds to the realistic gameplay. Realistically, you jump on an empty drum barrell, forget it feeling rickety while walking on it, you're lucky if it doesn't tip as soon as your feet touch the top of it. The flash bangs, also a step forward toward realism. The people who complain about it are just mad they can't actually walk straight and fire straight while blinded anymore. A real flash bang disorientates anyone within the radius, besides blinding them. So yeah, you round a corner and get flashed in CS, no biggie just go back behind the corner and recover. However in CS:S, you're chances of getting back behind that corner are no longer a guarantee. Also, the complaints about getting blown into the air when right next to a grenade that went off... What's to complain about? You're probably dead anyways, so who cares if you just flew 30 feet in the air, jackknifing your face into the pavement. Realisticlly, whether you survive or not.. If a grenade goes off near you, you don't get pushed back with a polite bunny hop. You get violently thrusted back til you A) Blow into pieces, B) Crash to the ground after your 5 seconds in air, or C) Go face-to-face with a brick-wall that you're about to permanently fuse with. These are all realistic additions, which is a plus IMO. Those who hate them are upset that the few arcade-like situations just got fewer. Oh, 1 more. The cheaters hate CS:S for an obvious reason, they can't cheat (well when it first came out, I'm sure if you talk to a cheater you know [we all know at least one] he has no problem with CS:S now, in fact they love how smooth the invisible walls render that they'll never go back. lamers).
I'll tell you what I do hate about CS:S, the fact they adjusted the hitboxes. Headshots seem to occur if you hit in the shoulder area now. Another thing, lag. Though not as bad as it was, we were suppose to be taking a step forward. Not to mention, we're all blessed with high-speed connections now. Why the hell are we lagging? The new map radar. Although cool and I'm sure I would love it if it was originally in the game, it pisses all those people off who actually know the map by playing, training, and learning the map. Its noobish, down to the core. The subtle map changes are BS too. They did a great job with the new engine, it looks beautiful. The little changes they made for the sake of "prettying" up the maps were unnecessary. They could of left the maps alone and we'd never care and still gawk because it looks amazing already. Some of the gun behaviors seemed different also. Whether this is because of the physic changes (which I don't think but other people would disagree) or the hitbox changes.
When we were told about CS:S, we were told it would be all CS was with a new engine and better physics. That's fine, but they should of limited the changes they did to physics so that it wouldn't alter game elements people have learned and practiced for years. Eg. the changes in the physics of oil drums and explosive thrust were fine, however the physics changes that no longer allow a bullet to travel thru a wall it had always gone thru before are bad.
I'm a firm believe of "out with the old, in with the new" so I laughed very hard when my friends sat down at his Athlon X2 4000+, SLI Setup, 2GB of RAM, and loads up CS 1.6 at 800x600 (I actually vomitted the first time I witnessed this). Ya know why he does this? He's willing to trade off that bling just so he still has that game he loves, instead of a "poser and disgrace" as he would put it. He can't let go and move on, because in his eyes there's nothing else that replaces CS 1.6 sufficiently. He wanted CS:S to do that, but it didn't. He won't let go unless he gets an experience that's identical to the experience he found and has loved ever since.
I really don't think that CS:S is going to be the death of Valve...honestly, I think that the ONLY reason some of those players haven't upgraded to Source is because the days of the free Half-Life Mods are dead and gone. I remember when CS became a retail release...everyone had it back then because it was FREE if you already owned Half-Life. You pay, what, $50 for Half-Life 2 these days...and then at least $20 on top of that for any quality mod that's out there? That's ridiculous, and THAT'S why the HL2 modding community is all but nonexistant, and THAT'S why so many people haven't converted to CS:S. People spend so much time worrying about whether or not Valve is going to alienate 1.6 users...but what about how they all but decimated the modding community and made it so unattractive for people to create new mods? Being involved in a few no-budget hobbyist mods back in the day myself, this is outrageous. What made Half-Life so popular was the modding community, the idea that anyone, anywhere, with some affordable software, a little elbow grease, and some good old fashioned know-how could create something new and fresh for a game that was so incredibly out of date. Half-Life was insanely popular for what...6 years? During that time so many games came out that surpassed HL graphically, and I'm sure a few were close in gameplay, but Half-Life stayed afloat because of that very idea...that anyone could be a game developer.
And by the way...cheating ISN'T a problem in CS:S. I have never, ever, been in a CS:S game where I thought someone was actually cheating...much better than me, yeah, but not cheating. I think hardballing cheaters is perfectly okay...it keeps the game enjoyable for everyone else. If you log on to STEAM intending to h4x0rz some n3wbz, then you deserve the global ban. Sorry.
Edit:
Seeing a mention of AQ2, I think we need to remember to good old days of Action Half-Life Beta 4. Seriously...what a great game. And the guys who did it were cool as hell, too. Much of the same Dev team that did AQ2, I believe, and they were such an excellent group of people. I remember many a long hour in mIRC talking to those guys, thinkin up ideas, creating new weapon models so that AHL players could further customize their gaming experience, and just having a good time...Ah, I miss those days.
As far as i know, cs:s was never meant to replace 1.6. They have very different styles of play and have since they were conceived. Cs:s has a faster pace to it, owing mainly to the general increase in all guns accuracy and especially the reduced moment penalties, running headshots with almost anyweapon in 1.6 were a pipe dream, they're common place in cs:s
I'm not saying that cs:s is better than 1.6, for competitions its certainly not, water effects in aztec made sure of that :P
Personally though, i play cs:s over cs because its different not because 'its an improved version of 1.6', it looks cleaner and its more fun for me and generally speaking its got a community based around having fun not the constant cpling we saw 1.6 degrade into *braces for flaming*
p.s. yer cs:s player world phys interactions r the most annoying thing ever
I dont see cs-promod doing anything big really, to little to late imo.
Its actuially a good thing imo with regards to what valve are doing ie a public and competative side to the CS:S game. You have 2 communities that are playing the same game so to speak, just 2 different modifications etc it gives them more information on how to improve things for both sides of the community. Valve are fixing issues with the game slowly and I feel it is going in the right direction now with Angel from the CPL heling them out with the competative side of things which they really had no clue about, its a very similar situation with Battlefield 2 the competative side o things sucks badly but the public side of things is great with unlocks and the such, but that is where it ends with BF2 as Dice have no idea on how to sort the issues out or do a competative side to BF2 and have no one to help them out as there stubborn big headed people who think they know what the competative gaming community wants (64 man clan wars anyone!!! LOL its hard enough getting 8 players on for an 8v8 let alone 32v32) (at the multiplay i28 there was a dice rep there who fobbed off the questions about improving the bf2/bf2142 game (in game tv for spectators and shotcastsers etc) and concerntrated on the public side of things (unlocks) which is wrong coz he was addressing the competative side of the community, but its where i think valve will succeed as there listening to both). CS:S isnt going to replace 1.6 and i dont think it was intended to, but we will see whether the CPL announce it as an official world tour game next year or whether it will still be CS1.6.
Originally Posted by RostokMcSpoons Ryan, you quote a CS Pro player saying that 'Counter-strike: Source will never be a pro-level game'. Did he say why not?
Personally, I'm a Day Of Defeat player, converting from CS five years ago. And there's a lot of debate over how DOD:S has been nerfed to make it 'noob' or 'casual gamer' friendly. It'd be interesting to hear if the same problem has occurred with CS:S, or if it's down to the higher system requirements the Source version demands to get a good consistent framerate... or some other reason?
Yes, CS:S has been nerfed, the aspects of the game that relate to skill have been changed. Namely weapon accuracies have been nubbed down, recoil patterns are now more random and as such more unpredictable, wall penetration is basically nonexisant, movement speeds to accuracy ratios for several if not all weapons have changed.
THIS is the core gameplay that made cs so fun, obviously changing it was what make CS:S such a dissapointment.
Originally Posted by Ghostface_Killah however the physics changes that no longer allow a bullet to travel thru a wall it had always gone thru before are bad.
dude, how the F can a deagle bullet travel thru walls as it did in CS 1.6? or any other weapon?
this article missed out on a major part of the CS world, the server admins. almost all of the CS servers are run by customers, not valve. they have really punished cs server admins in the past:
(a) poor quality control for servers on CS:S release, including major bugs such as wiping all the server configs automatically every time you start the server (steam would do validity check and re-download anything that had been changed, even if it was read-only)
(b) server browser bugs - the biggest one was that steam server browser wouldnt show any servers with IP address starting with 200.x.x.x to 254.x.x.x i had one of the most popular servers on the internet at 216.x.x.x and when steam came out, no one could find it. the server was empty within a couple weeks
(c) server plugin incompatibility - most servers had lots of admin plugins, either AMX or Adminmod. i personally had almost a hundred server plugins, some very simple (+30 health for a knife kill) and some very complex (map voting/management). steam and 1.6 killed all of them. it's to be expected that plugins need to be updated for a major release so AMX and adminmod updated their code within a couple days ... and a steam patch killed them again overnight. and they recoded again... and steam killed them again. this went on for a couple months, effectively killing the plugin community. adminmod and all the thousands of adminmod plugins are now dead because of this.
CS 1.6 is still big but it pales in comparison to what it was in the old days. part of this is due to MMORPG's but a lot is due to how they treated server admins. there used to be thousands of customized servers creating a whole range of different games, even though they were all running CS. almost all the dedicated server admins, who spent their own time and money running servers, gave up when steam came out because it was impossible to manage a server when steam was breaking all your work without any notice every couple days.
i personally used to run 3 CS servers, and they were full 32/32 all day almost every day. now i don't even play CS, and i feel like i lost a great game community because of valve's mistakes
Let me add one more thing. The reason people do not like cs:s with respect to all the time they played cs, is NOT because of bugs/patches/glitches/graphics/physics/community/poor quality control/plugin compatibility etc, it's because of the changed gameplay I outlined above.
Most people don't realize it, but they FEEL it, and fun is something you feel, not realize... Hope this cast some light on the subject.
I love Counter Strike. Always have, always will. It's incredibly popular here in the east. If I'm in Japan or here in Zhonguo, there are always hordes of players (only 1.6... yoink komputers).
I've always considered CS a very unhealthy game for the mind and spirit. Yeah it's a blast shooting someone in the face over and over and over and over again (especially when you take out a team :D) but physcologicaly it just seems like a perverse ritual after a while.
CS has always had the best engine in my opinion, I've always wanted to make a GTA mod or Battlefield mod with either of the half life engines.
This some what new CS:s is just neater than 1.6 to me. I've never been in a clan so Just playing sparaticly is much more fun on the new one.
But I hate the radar addition to the game, If VALVE WANTED TO ADD SOMETHING, WHY NOT HK's MP7 or G36/G36c???? Why not add some new firearms that have been availible to military's and used by them for some time.
I've played CS since day 1 in 1999, and I mean day 1, because I downloaded beta 1.0 the day it was released by Gooseman and Cliffe (I followed their CS project because I already played Action Quake 2 and I knew them from that mod), and I played CS upto 2003 at very competitive level.. After that I quit playing CS altogether.. I picked it up again when CS:S was released, which revived my interest in CS again.. Nowadays I sometimes play it for fun on publics, but not much anymore, after so many years the game does get a bit old..
It's funny to see the same old discussions going on about CS that have been going on forever.. Talk about a CS pro mod (which never happened and most likely never will), bitchin about changes, headshots and hitboxes, and how the game is noobified with every change etc.. It's also funny to hear people say CS:S plays completly different and is not suited for competitive play at all.. I completly disagree with that.. Sure CS:S feels a little bit different, but it's still CS, all the same tactics and skills come into play.. If a map is slightly changed to make it look better but the layout is still exactly the same I don't see how the balance could have changed that much.. Imho CS:S can be a so-called pro-game if the so-called pro-CSers got over themselfs and got of their lazy asses and learned the slithly different CS:S.. If you own in CS 1.6, you'll own in CS:S the same way.. And if you suck in CS 1.6, you'll suck in CS:S.. No difference.. And I don't see why that wouldn't apply to clanmatches aswell..
1 thing that is correct in this article is the fact the pro-gaming is going nowhere.. You simply cannot keep on playing the same old game for so many years, it's not marketable.. And to become a serious sport you have to have set rules etc.. This is impossible with pro-gaming because the games change so much.. Therefor, it will never be like traditional sports.. Also the fact that it's played by youngsters who generally are only active in it for a few years and then move on in their lives doesn't help aswell..
I also wonder why the Steam stats differ so much from the Gamespy stats, which show a much smaller gap between the old and new CS.. See: http://archive.gamespy.com/stats/
Ugh, spotted something absolutely retarded in one of those screenshots of the new buy system in cs:s - armour is being effected by it... wth? who the heck doesn't buy armour? theres no other choice!? in two weeks what the fook is the buy price of it going to be?! cs:s is gonna crash and burn.
I think its gonna be interesting.
Having to spend a fortune on armour and use a pop-gun or buy a good rifle and run around in shorts and t-shirt is an interesting dilemma.
I think people need to be more open-minded.
After all, its only a game.
Why say its gonna suxxor before you've even tried it?
I think all these things Steam are doing will make a refreshing change. :)
j0e I agree with you totally, I spent hundreds on running servers pre steam and pre 1.6 had a good community, then they released steam and 1.6 divided the community between 1.5 and 1.6 then forced everyone to 1.6 then divided it again with cs-cz and now done it once more with cs-source.
from a server point of view in 1.5 was full 90% of the day, when we changed to 1.6 it was empty for ever gave up paying for it after 3 months.
Even today there are simply too many servers online, and far too many of them are empty.
I don't know where to write in I played tourney level cs for a few years, and I had been playing it since beta 4.2 IIRC (when the awp wasn't the best sniper, and the colt had a scope) I've gone through all the changes and besides bug and supposed cheat fixes the best version of Cs was somewhere back in the 6 or 7 betas as long as the best versions of some of the maps. In terms of what made CS so good on the pro level was the solid game play, there were no hooky or broken gameplay mechanics that gave one team or person an advantage, all the guns were relatively balanced, and on the tourney level there werne't many exploits or wierd issues, a team with good stratedgy and skills was what it took. Not like BF2 where vehicles are overpowered or theirs balance and gameplay mechanics issues (dolphin diving, jump proning etc). Anyways is this new variable pricing live yet? if not you really can't slam it until you've tried it, How much will the pricing change? I mean it's one thing if the ak goes up to 9K dollars it's another if it goes up 400-1K. I think it will be interesting (although I don't play cs:s regurarly). So you can't say you are always gonna be stuck with a crappy gun or what not, I often found myself stuck at 16,000 after a few rounds and even at 6K that's more than a full loadout for a round unless your stupid. But I digress, basically no other game has topped CS partially do to it's playability on any machine now and partially due to it's superbly solid gameplay (that seems to have been left static, and forgotten). If a game is going to surpass it or be equal it will need to have that core solid gameplay, which boils down to the mechanics and balance rather than all the gimmicks and graphics in the world.
Wow, what an incredibly one-sided article. You add a section called "What do the professionals think?" and ask nobody even remotely involved in the game development business. "Professional" cyber-athletes are a joke, their opinion counts for no more than the average gamer. Sponsors don't count for anything because they aren't even the ones playing the game. They are just sponsors, as in they are in it for the commercialism, not to play games, just to make money. How is their opinion valid at all? How is it more valid than that of the average CSS player? You state opinion as it is fact throughout the article, and twist the statistics in your favor, which in the journalism business is a big no-no (but it still seems to happen so often anyways.)
You state that Valve trying to change the maps/gameplay for CS:S is a bad thing, but that is exactly what they would be doing to 1.6 if they never released source. It is called updating, it is an important part of any game, and Valve is actually doing it, and you should be thankful. They are not trying to "reach-out" to the CS 1.6 community by changing the game, they are trying to IMPROVE the game, which in turn will attract newer players to the franchise. I remember when Valve first publically stated they were replacing the radar with a new one, and everybody freaked. Then it finally released and it ended up being a very nice update. Nobody has any faith in the people developing the game, but Valve is a very respectable and intelligent company, it's a shame how people like you can constantly criticize them for every little step they take without just waiting it out and seeing where they are going first. Some of the updates attract negative criticism from the community, but anyone who is a REAL gamer will adapt, it gets boring playing the same game for too long. There have been many times in which I stopped playing CS/CSS for months because I just was tired of never having anything new, I eventually started CSS to see the new radar update and it definitely got me playing again, it may not have been a major update at all, but it got my attention.
I hope you are not a professional journalist, because this article is very much 'faux news,' it is nothing but a singular opinion on the gameplay updates CS:S is having, but you state it as it is statistically going to bring the gaming community down to nothing but dust unless Valve does something to stop it. The entire article strikes me as something I would find from any random angry player on the Steam-Powered forums, and am a bit disgusted that a site such as this would take it as a serious article. Perhaps in the future you should explore both sides of an argument without any bias, and then maybe you won't come off as just another angry newb?
After 8-18 months of 1.6, 1.5 died. I dunno when CS:S got released, but its definetly assed 1 year. It shows how good a job Valve did. (Granted, you need to buy CS:S, but still).
and i agree with this 2 communities (Competitive Vs fun play). I can't see in any way how CS:S will completly replace 1.6... unless Valve somehow pulls the plug
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ReplyMad props to you, its rare that I see someone mention one of the greatest (and most overlooked) mods at a time where mods gave gamers a reason to keep playing that older game and mod authors actually stuck with the mod instead of hyping everyone up to just release the beta, because that's all you had time for (which goes on way too much these days). I always wished someone would remake ActionQuake 2 as much as Team Fortress has been remaid so many times. It was such an original concept, yet so simple at the same time.
Anyways, back to the thread. I've been playing games since calling into BBS's and playing 4-player Doom over a 14.4bps modem (oh yeah, IPX wasn't the only way to get more than a 2 player DM going in Doom, but since the Internet wasn't accessibly to anyone outside of gov, edu, or medical profession you'd never know). Obviously, who wouldn't get hooked. Then Quake solidified it. Here's the deal with CS. It was the first to provide a true-to-life (well as close as possible) tactical experience. It shuned away the arcade-like gameplay of regular Quake DM, Half-Life DM, etc... for a more realistic experience. We were all used to getting rocketed in the face or riddled with nails for 10 seconds that the first time we got killed by one single bullet from a pistol (remember? there were no head-shots until CS [unless you count Team Fortress mod for Quake, but that was only for the Sniper class]) it really made us pause for a second...
No immediate respawning, guns weren't just left around and had to be bought, your individual ownage meant jack if your team lost, these were all new to us, used to that "Oh I'm dead, damn, I'll just respawn and chase my killer down since he's 10hp away from death." Random shooting wasn't an option, you had to make shots count. Hell, for the first time we couldn't constantly run (unless you wanted everyone to know where you are at all times).
My point is, that's why people get so passionate about CS. That's why people thrash on CS:S. In all honestly, it took a step back. Now I'm not talking about the physics because that actually adds to the realistic gameplay. Realistically, you jump on an empty drum barrell, forget it feeling rickety while walking on it, you're lucky if it doesn't tip as soon as your feet touch the top of it. The flash bangs, also a step forward toward realism. The people who complain about it are just mad they can't actually walk straight and fire straight while blinded anymore. A real flash bang disorientates anyone within the radius, besides blinding them. So yeah, you round a corner and get flashed in CS, no biggie just go back behind the corner and recover. However in CS:S, you're chances of getting back behind that corner are no longer a guarantee. Also, the complaints about getting blown into the air when right next to a grenade that went off... What's to complain about? You're probably dead anyways, so who cares if you just flew 30 feet in the air, jackknifing your face into the pavement. Realisticlly, whether you survive or not.. If a grenade goes off near you, you don't get pushed back with a polite bunny hop. You get violently thrusted back til you A) Blow into pieces, B) Crash to the ground after your 5 seconds in air, or C) Go face-to-face with a brick-wall that you're about to permanently fuse with. These are all realistic additions, which is a plus IMO. Those who hate them are upset that the few arcade-like situations just got fewer. Oh, 1 more. The cheaters hate CS:S for an obvious reason, they can't cheat (well when it first came out, I'm sure if you talk to a cheater you know [we all know at least one] he has no problem with CS:S now, in fact they love how smooth the invisible walls render that they'll never go back. lamers).
I'll tell you what I do hate about CS:S, the fact they adjusted the hitboxes. Headshots seem to occur if you hit in the shoulder area now. Another thing, lag. Though not as bad as it was, we were suppose to be taking a step forward. Not to mention, we're all blessed with high-speed connections now. Why the hell are we lagging? The new map radar. Although cool and I'm sure I would love it if it was originally in the game, it pisses all those people off who actually know the map by playing, training, and learning the map. Its noobish, down to the core. The subtle map changes are BS too. They did a great job with the new engine, it looks beautiful. The little changes they made for the sake of "prettying" up the maps were unnecessary. They could of left the maps alone and we'd never care and still gawk because it looks amazing already. Some of the gun behaviors seemed different also. Whether this is because of the physic changes (which I don't think but other people would disagree) or the hitbox changes.
When we were told about CS:S, we were told it would be all CS was with a new engine and better physics. That's fine, but they should of limited the changes they did to physics so that it wouldn't alter game elements people have learned and practiced for years. Eg. the changes in the physics of oil drums and explosive thrust were fine, however the physics changes that no longer allow a bullet to travel thru a wall it had always gone thru before are bad.
I'm a firm believe of "out with the old, in with the new" so I laughed very hard when my friends sat down at his Athlon X2 4000+, SLI Setup, 2GB of RAM, and loads up CS 1.6 at 800x600 (I actually vomitted the first time I witnessed this). Ya know why he does this? He's willing to trade off that bling just so he still has that game he loves, instead of a "poser and disgrace" as he would put it. He can't let go and move on, because in his eyes there's nothing else that replaces CS 1.6 sufficiently. He wanted CS:S to do that, but it didn't. He won't let go unless he gets an experience that's identical to the experience he found and has loved ever since.
And by the way...cheating ISN'T a problem in CS:S. I have never, ever, been in a CS:S game where I thought someone was actually cheating...much better than me, yeah, but not cheating. I think hardballing cheaters is perfectly okay...it keeps the game enjoyable for everyone else. If you log on to STEAM intending to h4x0rz some n3wbz, then you deserve the global ban. Sorry.
Edit:
Seeing a mention of AQ2, I think we need to remember to good old days of Action Half-Life Beta 4. Seriously...what a great game. And the guys who did it were cool as hell, too. Much of the same Dev team that did AQ2, I believe, and they were such an excellent group of people. I remember many a long hour in mIRC talking to those guys, thinkin up ideas, creating new weapon models so that AHL players could further customize their gaming experience, and just having a good time...Ah, I miss those days.
I'm not saying that cs:s is better than 1.6, for competitions its certainly not, water effects in aztec made sure of that :P
Personally though, i play cs:s over cs because its different not because 'its an improved version of 1.6', it looks cleaner and its more fun for me and generally speaking its got a community based around having fun not the constant cpling we saw 1.6 degrade into *braces for flaming*
p.s. yer cs:s player world phys interactions r the most annoying thing ever
Its actuially a good thing imo with regards to what valve are doing ie a public and competative side to the CS:S game. You have 2 communities that are playing the same game so to speak, just 2 different modifications etc it gives them more information on how to improve things for both sides of the community. Valve are fixing issues with the game slowly and I feel it is going in the right direction now with Angel from the CPL heling them out with the competative side of things which they really had no clue about, its a very similar situation with Battlefield 2 the competative side o things sucks badly but the public side of things is great with unlocks and the such, but that is where it ends with BF2 as Dice have no idea on how to sort the issues out or do a competative side to BF2 and have no one to help them out as there stubborn big headed people who think they know what the competative gaming community wants (64 man clan wars anyone!!! LOL its hard enough getting 8 players on for an 8v8 let alone 32v32) (at the multiplay i28 there was a dice rep there who fobbed off the questions about improving the bf2/bf2142 game (in game tv for spectators and shotcastsers etc) and concerntrated on the public side of things (unlocks) which is wrong coz he was addressing the competative side of the community, but its where i think valve will succeed as there listening to both). CS:S isnt going to replace 1.6 and i dont think it was intended to, but we will see whether the CPL announce it as an official world tour game next year or whether it will still be CS1.6.
Yes, CS:S has been nerfed, the aspects of the game that relate to skill have been changed. Namely weapon accuracies have been nubbed down, recoil patterns are now more random and as such more unpredictable, wall penetration is basically nonexisant, movement speeds to accuracy ratios for several if not all weapons have changed.
THIS is the core gameplay that made cs so fun, obviously changing it was what make CS:S such a dissapointment.
dude, how the F can a deagle bullet travel thru walls as it did in CS 1.6? or any other weapon?
(a) poor quality control for servers on CS:S release, including major bugs such as wiping all the server configs automatically every time you start the server (steam would do validity check and re-download anything that had been changed, even if it was read-only)
(b) server browser bugs - the biggest one was that steam server browser wouldnt show any servers with IP address starting with 200.x.x.x to 254.x.x.x i had one of the most popular servers on the internet at 216.x.x.x and when steam came out, no one could find it. the server was empty within a couple weeks
(c) server plugin incompatibility - most servers had lots of admin plugins, either AMX or Adminmod. i personally had almost a hundred server plugins, some very simple (+30 health for a knife kill) and some very complex (map voting/management). steam and 1.6 killed all of them. it's to be expected that plugins need to be updated for a major release so AMX and adminmod updated their code within a couple days ... and a steam patch killed them again overnight. and they recoded again... and steam killed them again. this went on for a couple months, effectively killing the plugin community. adminmod and all the thousands of adminmod plugins are now dead because of this.
CS 1.6 is still big but it pales in comparison to what it was in the old days. part of this is due to MMORPG's but a lot is due to how they treated server admins. there used to be thousands of customized servers creating a whole range of different games, even though they were all running CS. almost all the dedicated server admins, who spent their own time and money running servers, gave up when steam came out because it was impossible to manage a server when steam was breaking all your work without any notice every couple days.
i personally used to run 3 CS servers, and they were full 32/32 all day almost every day. now i don't even play CS, and i feel like i lost a great game community because of valve's mistakes
Most people don't realize it, but they FEEL it, and fun is something you feel, not realize... Hope this cast some light on the subject.
I've always considered CS a very unhealthy game for the mind and spirit. Yeah it's a blast shooting someone in the face over and over and over and over again (especially when you take out a team :D) but physcologicaly it just seems like a perverse ritual after a while.
CS has always had the best engine in my opinion, I've always wanted to make a GTA mod or Battlefield mod with either of the half life engines.
This some what new CS:s is just neater than 1.6 to me. I've never been in a clan so Just playing sparaticly is much more fun on the new one.
But I hate the radar addition to the game, If VALVE WANTED TO ADD SOMETHING, WHY NOT HK's MP7 or G36/G36c???? Why not add some new firearms that have been availible to military's and used by them for some time.
IF U LIKE ENGINEERING CHECK THIS OUT
http://www.hkpro.com/pdw.htm
btw you can still penetrate walls up to 32units (which is quite thick. ~8units is single brick) deep with high calibre weapons in source iirc :)
It's funny to see the same old discussions going on about CS that have been going on forever.. Talk about a CS pro mod (which never happened and most likely never will), bitchin about changes, headshots and hitboxes, and how the game is noobified with every change etc.. It's also funny to hear people say CS:S plays completly different and is not suited for competitive play at all.. I completly disagree with that.. Sure CS:S feels a little bit different, but it's still CS, all the same tactics and skills come into play.. If a map is slightly changed to make it look better but the layout is still exactly the same I don't see how the balance could have changed that much.. Imho CS:S can be a so-called pro-game if the so-called pro-CSers got over themselfs and got of their lazy asses and learned the slithly different CS:S.. If you own in CS 1.6, you'll own in CS:S the same way.. And if you suck in CS 1.6, you'll suck in CS:S.. No difference.. And I don't see why that wouldn't apply to clanmatches aswell..
1 thing that is correct in this article is the fact the pro-gaming is going nowhere.. You simply cannot keep on playing the same old game for so many years, it's not marketable.. And to become a serious sport you have to have set rules etc.. This is impossible with pro-gaming because the games change so much.. Therefor, it will never be like traditional sports.. Also the fact that it's played by youngsters who generally are only active in it for a few years and then move on in their lives doesn't help aswell..
I also wonder why the Steam stats differ so much from the Gamespy stats, which show a much smaller gap between the old and new CS.. See: http://archive.gamespy.com/stats/
Crash.
And.
Burn.
Having to spend a fortune on armour and use a pop-gun or buy a good rifle and run around in shorts and t-shirt is an interesting dilemma.
I think people need to be more open-minded.
After all, its only a game.
Why say its gonna suxxor before you've even tried it?
I think all these things Steam are doing will make a refreshing change. :)
from a server point of view in 1.5 was full 90% of the day, when we changed to 1.6 it was empty for ever gave up paying for it after 3 months.
Even today there are simply too many servers online, and far too many of them are empty.
inflatable I agree with all you said as well.
If you want realism play america's army.
CS is successful because it's fun. Most people get confused on this matter because they are not very... informed.
what is fun about being hit in the head by a pistol round that drills everything in its path?
You state that Valve trying to change the maps/gameplay for CS:S is a bad thing, but that is exactly what they would be doing to 1.6 if they never released source. It is called updating, it is an important part of any game, and Valve is actually doing it, and you should be thankful. They are not trying to "reach-out" to the CS 1.6 community by changing the game, they are trying to IMPROVE the game, which in turn will attract newer players to the franchise. I remember when Valve first publically stated they were replacing the radar with a new one, and everybody freaked. Then it finally released and it ended up being a very nice update. Nobody has any faith in the people developing the game, but Valve is a very respectable and intelligent company, it's a shame how people like you can constantly criticize them for every little step they take without just waiting it out and seeing where they are going first. Some of the updates attract negative criticism from the community, but anyone who is a REAL gamer will adapt, it gets boring playing the same game for too long. There have been many times in which I stopped playing CS/CSS for months because I just was tired of never having anything new, I eventually started CSS to see the new radar update and it definitely got me playing again, it may not have been a major update at all, but it got my attention.
I hope you are not a professional journalist, because this article is very much 'faux news,' it is nothing but a singular opinion on the gameplay updates CS:S is having, but you state it as it is statistically going to bring the gaming community down to nothing but dust unless Valve does something to stop it. The entire article strikes me as something I would find from any random angry player on the Steam-Powered forums, and am a bit disgusted that a site such as this would take it as a serious article. Perhaps in the future you should explore both sides of an argument without any bias, and then maybe you won't come off as just another angry newb?
So in short:
your article = :'(
and i agree with this 2 communities (Competitive Vs fun play). I can't see in any way how CS:S will completly replace 1.6... unless Valve somehow pulls the plug
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