Almost persuades me to get an xbox 360... I loved the original Forza, far superior to the comparitively slow Gran Turismo series. Hell, the original is pretty much up to par with the graphics of this... just increase the resolution and add some bloom.
Good review, bit-tech is becoming much more preferable to ign for game reviews, well done!
Bit harsh on the Career mode I think, it's great to teach you handling and how to control cars of different weights, power, class, manufacturer, drive, engine type/position and so on.
I do feel this review was a bit.. I dunno, harsh I guess. While I agree on many of the points I would beg to differ that the game is "too easy" with a controller, yes, perhaps it is for the very well seasoned player but for someone like me who is pretty new to the racing genre (I really only ever play burnout) its a far cry from easy.
In fact I'd go as far as to say it's damned hard unless you have amazing trigger and thumb skills with a 360 pad. If you are like me and pretty much most people I know the breaks are either all on or all off, and the same with steering unless you really are rather good with the pad.
Although I do mostly agree with the review it's certainly not one of the most balanced bit has published.
The gripe about it being easy to control a car with a controller applies to all racing games, it's very easy in many games to manage oversteer because you can quickly flick your analogue stick from right to left.
Online is also great fun, like all online games, if you find the right people. Whats best is finding a good bunch of mates, and play the races for fun, not competitively. The wheel in the right hands can also beat the crap out of controller users. Sure, a controller is good for oversteer, but it's near impossible to hold a constant turn that isn't at maximum steering. I find I have to wiggle my stick to get round a lot of corners since it's impossible to to find the right spot on an analogue stick.
I'd also say that the game isn't too easy, hard AI on the more strict races and it can be a real challenge to win a race sometimes. Factory spec races especially, since everyone is in the exact same car. I also haven't really noticed any graphical flaws, since if I try and look at a car long enough to notice it usually means I'm about to plow into a wall and turn my car from a beast into a steaming pile of junk that I can walk quicker than.
IMO the review isn't too harsh, although I don't agree with some of the points, but the same is applied to all racing games, and IMHO (and my brothers who is a GT nut), this beats GT hands down.
Whoever wrote this review stated. I was therefore quite disappointed when I found that I couldnt choose a bright orange Ford Focus ST as my starting vehicle, nor was it even available to buy in the European region. Eventually I found my car lurking in the American region, with the game clearly stating that the origin of the Focus ST was North America.
tbh i went to the european region looking for the Honda CRX VTi, to my dismay i found it in the asian region when the cars sold by Honda in the UK and europe are different to those sold in Japan, e.g the VTi having approx 8bhp less than the japanese SRi version.
I do kind of see where your coming from but come on its based on the region where each car maker is based therefore if your after a Ford car youd be expected to go to an american region.
topher - As Bindi pointed out, Ford Europe and Ford US are entirely different companies, with entirely different ranges of cars. Hence, Ford Europe has been in profit for the past decade, while Ford US has been spiraling downward and dragging the worldwide brand down with it.
The parent Ford company being American does not make the positioning of European cars in the US territory correct. By that rationale, all Vauxhaul cars should be listed under GM in the US, rather than the UK, since GM owns Vaxhaul. You cant have it both ways!
Veles - You are right, pretty much any driving game is too easy with a controller, but the point with Forza 2 is that the handling and dynamics are damn near perfect with a steering wheel, meaning that using the controller loses much of the appeal.
You are also right that it is impossible to hold a car with a constant degree of lock using the controller, but my point is that you dont have to! Just by constantly flicking the controller, you can navigate the vast majority of bends without having to ilicit any of the subtle, and often gentle steering movements necessary to lap a track quickly. If you were driving a real car and you constantly flicked the wheel at high speed, you would be off the track before you knew it, and that is exactly the way it works in Forza 2 IF you use a steering wheel.
But the lack of challenge is not just about the control method, it is also due to how easy it is to upgrade your car with no regard for physical dimension, or whether supporting components could survive the ridiculous amounts of torque being pushed through them.
Finally stating that you have not noticed the graphical issues because you have to concentrate on driving, does not mean that they are not there. Both Bindi and Tim were as surprised as me when they saw the shimmering textures and lack of AA.
BioSniper - I understand your point about not being a seasoned race game fan, and feeling that the accessible nature of Forza 2 is a good thing, but that is my point exactly. Forza should not be like Burnout, it is supposed to be the best driving simulation that the Xbox has to offer, not just a pick-up and play, foot to the floor, forget the brakes adrenaline-fest. We've got Need for Speed covering that angle, we don't need Forza doing it.
Also, you say that you "do mostly agree with the review" but it's not balanced. In what way is it not balanced? Should a reviewer have to list a good point every time they mention a bad one? A review tells it like it is, warts and all. If somone disagrees with the review it's their perogative, but you're saying that you DO agree, but that it wasn't balanced enough - if you agree with the points, how would you suggest it should be balanced?
rupbert - Misguided? Hmmmm, interesting.
Misguided because the review is judging the game from the mindset of a driving enthusiat, not an arcade racer?
Misguided because I expect some realism when it comes to car modification in a game that is supposed to be a serious driving simulation?
Misguided because I know how difficult it is to balance a car on the limit around a track, and saying that allowing the player to do so with random flicks of an analogue stick is far from realistic?
Misguided because I think it's too easy to get money, and consequently too easy to upgrade your car so much that nothing else on the track can touch it?
Misguided because I find it dull being in poll position and leaving the pack behind me in the first seconds and never seeing another car during the race?
Oh no, I get it - misguided because I haven't just bowed down and said that Forza 2 is the best racing game on the planet like most other reviewers, when it clearly could and should have been soooo much better.
It's by far the best racing game on the 360. I've quite enjoyed it so far despite the annoying AI.
Upgrading a car from standard is so much fun, seeing how each item improves the car. It's really great that you can paint the car and style it exactly how you want to.
Online play is great and the photo system that uploads the website is so useful.
As a PC sim-racer myself, I see Forza 2 coming mainly from the casual gamer angle. But I dont see that as a bad thing.
There are many more casual racers than sim-racers (see lack of players online on GTR etc), so the best thing about Forza 2 is being able to race online against lots of people with a varied and diverse field of cars, with custom tournaments etc.
If I wanted supremely accurate car info and ruthless handling, I can always go back to my PC.
I think it beats out GT4 apart from maybe the sheer number of cars and imo generally better presentation in GT.
Originally Posted by choupolo As a PC sim-racer myself, I see Forza 2 coming mainly from the casual gamer angle. But I dont see that as a bad thing.
There are many more casual racers than sim-racers (see lack of players online on GTR etc), so the best thing about Forza 2 is being able to race online against lots of people with a varied and diverse field of cars, with custom tournaments etc.
If I wanted supremely accurate car info and ruthless handling, I can always go back to my PC.
I think it beats out GT4 apart from maybe the sheer number of cars and imo generally better presentation in GT.
Agreed. Gran Turismo tends to deliver on the emphasis of driving pleasure (citing their catchphrase "The drive of your life."), whereas the Forza franchise punctuates on (very rewarding) achievement. There is also a notable difference in the target audiences of both titles. I mean, you're not going to relive your 1967 Le Mans fantasy at Circuit de la Sarthe in Forza or be able reproduce an exciting race from the JGTC either. The extensive garage in GT4, again, ties back to the grand concept of significance and an acquired taste in motoring--the original Skyline GT-R in the 70s has a whole lot more iconic significance to the industry than a 350Z with a carbon bonnet and wing.
Originally Posted by Jamie Upgrading a car from standard is so much fun, seeing how each item improves the car.
Wouldnt say that I've got a 622 bhp 1800lb rwd crx does nothing but spin and my 552bhp fwd aint much better lol
Love the game personally though, in the point about having a greater PI and being at the front this means nothing makes it easier for those who may be less able just upgrade your car and win but personally I like a bit of a challange as I know my friends do and we drive in similar or lower PI cars.
Nout like beating the R32 Golf in the VW challange in a Corrado with a PI index of 382 thats slightly slower but brakes better and corners better and beating the R32.
Originally Posted by Bindibadgi Care to elaborate?
As he hasn't yet got back to you i'll put in my 2p...
First off, i'm not a die hard forza fan - I've been a GT fan since the first one. I bought this to fill the void while waiting for the next GT.
The gripes about ai are unfounded - the cars move out of your way when possible, sure if you hammer it up the inside at a corner where you have no right of way they'll hit you, but if you take care to ensure you have a real overtaking maneuver they'll drop back when forced. Out of all the console racers i've played this is some of the best ai so long as you realise, just like in real racing, that you are not the only driver on the track who's aiming to win and that you don't have a divine right to the racing line in every corner.
As for the aliasing, have you only played the demo? I'll admit it was terrible there... and while it's not high end PC perfect it's certainly more than passable.
As for the "too fast, too furious" section. Yes it's easy to buy a good car and max it out but that won't let you enter all the races. If you use this method you'll soon find you're having trouble scraping the cash together to be able to enter the next race (i'm assuming that you didn't get much past 50% in order to write this review?). It's also designed as a game for all skill levels, there's a broad scope of options that allow you to tune the game to your level. If, as you say, you find it too easy then turn some of the driving aids off, up the ai or simply don't try to decimate the opposition in the garage with your bank balance but use the cars you win and do it on the track.
The review seemed to me a bit of a rushed job, not in writing competence of course, but in well formed opinion - and not just because i personally disagree.
First things first every reviewer has said the graphics in Forza2 are dissapointing, no their not the cars look stunning if u customise them in the game with own decals (1000 per side of the car where else lets u do that). I totally agree with the AI in this game not being all that, but just go online and u have gotten around that issue.
The frame rate of 60fps in this game is first class with great HD visuals, when the full 1080p is running from the elite it will look even better as the tv will display 30fps. The auction house is a great thing, as is the photo mode u can actually upload pictures to the official site and download them as desktop wallpaper or whatever floats your boat.
Sorry, I should have explained clearly when I said not balanced.
What I meant it that it would also be nice to have perhaps a second part of the review (similar to eurogamer's version) where by the second reviewer isn't a hardened race fan just to give some different eyes to the subject, just that currently I feel that the review is a little one-sided in that respect.
Just that when it comes to things like where in the review it's stated that "it's too easy" perhaps in the eyes of a non-seasoned racer it's not.
I for one am not a seasoned racer and find it pretty hard to play, so for a review to outright state "it's too easy" is unbalanced, if you catch my drift.
I think that makes sense as to what I'm trying to explain/achieve.. hopefully :p
the A.I in the Forza series is streets ahead of the GT series in that the cars actually seem to have AI as opposed to doing the same lap every time not matter what you do or where you are on the track.
This is the pinnacle of car racing on consoles and if you look at meta critic you can see alot more respected reviewers were not so bias against it over their beloved GT.
The gripes about ai are unfounded - the cars move out of your way when possible, sure if you hammer it up the inside at a corner where you have no right of way they'll hit you, but if you take care to ensure you have a real overtaking maneuver they'll drop back when forced. Out of all the console racers i've played this is some of the best ai so long as you realise, just like in real racing, that you are not the only driver on the track who's aiming to win and that you don't have a divine right to the racing line in every corner.
The points you make are true and I accept that if I charge up the inside of a car into a corner they shouldn't just let me through. However, I am constantly being rear ended or my rear corner nudged out of the way spinning me out which is totally wrong. You can also prevent yourself from being overtaken by blocking. Most notable on the New York track when you are in a slow car, just keep blocking and eventually they will brake rather than trying to go around you.
Originally Posted by Jamie However, I am constantly being rear ended or my rear corner nudged out of the way spinning me out which is totally wrong.
I don't seem to have this happen to me much, not sure why, but i agree when it does it's incredibly annoying. The way i look at it is you see that on BTCC all the time, it's just a shame there's no marshals to hand out penalties to the ai.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jamie You can also prevent yourself from being overtaken by blocking.
This is a problem that i totally agree on, it's one of those things that in real racing would lead to some form of penalty but i could imagine the outrage from the players if they introduced it to forza.
I just think the ai is some of the best in a console racer, i agree it's still not perfect but the review should credit the fact that it's pushed things forward even if it's not perfect yet.
The game is not easy at all if you turn of all driving-aids and up the AI level a bit.. If you leave the game on default settings, yeah maybe it's a bit to easy, but that goes for any game left on default settings imho..
And besides all that, consolegames are more arcade by nature, even socalled sim games like Forza or GT.. The real hardcore sim stuff is only found on the PC..
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Good review, bit-tech is becoming much more preferable to ign for game reviews, well done!
In fact I'd go as far as to say it's damned hard unless you have amazing trigger and thumb skills with a 360 pad. If you are like me and pretty much most people I know the breaks are either all on or all off, and the same with steering unless you really are rather good with the pad.
Although I do mostly agree with the review it's certainly not one of the most balanced bit has published.
Online is also great fun, like all online games, if you find the right people. Whats best is finding a good bunch of mates, and play the races for fun, not competitively. The wheel in the right hands can also beat the crap out of controller users. Sure, a controller is good for oversteer, but it's near impossible to hold a constant turn that isn't at maximum steering. I find I have to wiggle my stick to get round a lot of corners since it's impossible to to find the right spot on an analogue stick.
I'd also say that the game isn't too easy, hard AI on the more strict races and it can be a real challenge to win a race sometimes. Factory spec races especially, since everyone is in the exact same car. I also haven't really noticed any graphical flaws, since if I try and look at a car long enough to notice it usually means I'm about to plow into a wall and turn my car from a beast into a steaming pile of junk that I can walk quicker than.
IMO the review isn't too harsh, although I don't agree with some of the points, but the same is applied to all racing games, and IMHO (and my brothers who is a GT nut), this beats GT hands down.
*flatout 2 had pasable AI but it cheated/
Care to elaborate?
It is, but they sell two different cars in two different continents. They act as entirely independent elements of the same company :)
I do kind of see where your coming from but come on its based on the region where each car maker is based therefore if your after a Ford car youd be expected to go to an american region.
The parent Ford company being American does not make the positioning of European cars in the US territory correct. By that rationale, all Vauxhaul cars should be listed under GM in the US, rather than the UK, since GM owns Vaxhaul. You cant have it both ways!
Veles - You are right, pretty much any driving game is too easy with a controller, but the point with Forza 2 is that the handling and dynamics are damn near perfect with a steering wheel, meaning that using the controller loses much of the appeal.
You are also right that it is impossible to hold a car with a constant degree of lock using the controller, but my point is that you dont have to! Just by constantly flicking the controller, you can navigate the vast majority of bends without having to ilicit any of the subtle, and often gentle steering movements necessary to lap a track quickly. If you were driving a real car and you constantly flicked the wheel at high speed, you would be off the track before you knew it, and that is exactly the way it works in Forza 2 IF you use a steering wheel.
But the lack of challenge is not just about the control method, it is also due to how easy it is to upgrade your car with no regard for physical dimension, or whether supporting components could survive the ridiculous amounts of torque being pushed through them.
Finally stating that you have not noticed the graphical issues because you have to concentrate on driving, does not mean that they are not there. Both Bindi and Tim were as surprised as me when they saw the shimmering textures and lack of AA.
BioSniper - I understand your point about not being a seasoned race game fan, and feeling that the accessible nature of Forza 2 is a good thing, but that is my point exactly. Forza should not be like Burnout, it is supposed to be the best driving simulation that the Xbox has to offer, not just a pick-up and play, foot to the floor, forget the brakes adrenaline-fest. We've got Need for Speed covering that angle, we don't need Forza doing it.
Also, you say that you "do mostly agree with the review" but it's not balanced. In what way is it not balanced? Should a reviewer have to list a good point every time they mention a bad one? A review tells it like it is, warts and all. If somone disagrees with the review it's their perogative, but you're saying that you DO agree, but that it wasn't balanced enough - if you agree with the points, how would you suggest it should be balanced?
rupbert - Misguided? Hmmmm, interesting.
Misguided because the review is judging the game from the mindset of a driving enthusiat, not an arcade racer?
Misguided because I expect some realism when it comes to car modification in a game that is supposed to be a serious driving simulation?
Misguided because I know how difficult it is to balance a car on the limit around a track, and saying that allowing the player to do so with random flicks of an analogue stick is far from realistic?
Misguided because I think it's too easy to get money, and consequently too easy to upgrade your car so much that nothing else on the track can touch it?
Misguided because I find it dull being in poll position and leaving the pack behind me in the first seconds and never seeing another car during the race?
Oh no, I get it - misguided because I haven't just bowed down and said that Forza 2 is the best racing game on the planet like most other reviewers, when it clearly could and should have been soooo much better.
Upgrading a car from standard is so much fun, seeing how each item improves the car. It's really great that you can paint the car and style it exactly how you want to.
Online play is great and the photo system that uploads the website is so useful.
There are many more casual racers than sim-racers (see lack of players online on GTR etc), so the best thing about Forza 2 is being able to race online against lots of people with a varied and diverse field of cars, with custom tournaments etc.
If I wanted supremely accurate car info and ruthless handling, I can always go back to my PC.
I think it beats out GT4 apart from maybe the sheer number of cars and imo generally better presentation in GT.
Wouldnt say that I've got a 622 bhp 1800lb rwd crx does nothing but spin and my 552bhp fwd aint much better lol
Love the game personally though, in the point about having a greater PI and being at the front this means nothing makes it easier for those who may be less able just upgrade your car and win but personally I like a bit of a challange as I know my friends do and we drive in similar or lower PI cars.
Nout like beating the R32 Golf in the VW challange in a Corrado with a PI index of 382 thats slightly slower but brakes better and corners better and beating the R32.
I have a 669bhp silvia but sold it because it was undrivable in RWD config and I couldn't bear to put a skyline engine in it and make it AWD.
As he hasn't yet got back to you i'll put in my 2p...
First off, i'm not a die hard forza fan - I've been a GT fan since the first one. I bought this to fill the void while waiting for the next GT.
The gripes about ai are unfounded - the cars move out of your way when possible, sure if you hammer it up the inside at a corner where you have no right of way they'll hit you, but if you take care to ensure you have a real overtaking maneuver they'll drop back when forced. Out of all the console racers i've played this is some of the best ai so long as you realise, just like in real racing, that you are not the only driver on the track who's aiming to win and that you don't have a divine right to the racing line in every corner.
As for the aliasing, have you only played the demo? I'll admit it was terrible there... and while it's not high end PC perfect it's certainly more than passable.
As for the "too fast, too furious" section. Yes it's easy to buy a good car and max it out but that won't let you enter all the races. If you use this method you'll soon find you're having trouble scraping the cash together to be able to enter the next race (i'm assuming that you didn't get much past 50% in order to write this review?). It's also designed as a game for all skill levels, there's a broad scope of options that allow you to tune the game to your level. If, as you say, you find it too easy then turn some of the driving aids off, up the ai or simply don't try to decimate the opposition in the garage with your bank balance but use the cars you win and do it on the track.
The review seemed to me a bit of a rushed job, not in writing competence of course, but in well formed opinion - and not just because i personally disagree.
The frame rate of 60fps in this game is first class with great HD visuals, when the full 1080p is running from the elite it will look even better as the tv will display 30fps. The auction house is a great thing, as is the photo mode u can actually upload pictures to the official site and download them as desktop wallpaper or whatever floats your boat.
What I meant it that it would also be nice to have perhaps a second part of the review (similar to eurogamer's version) where by the second reviewer isn't a hardened race fan just to give some different eyes to the subject, just that currently I feel that the review is a little one-sided in that respect.
Just that when it comes to things like where in the review it's stated that "it's too easy" perhaps in the eyes of a non-seasoned racer it's not.
I for one am not a seasoned racer and find it pretty hard to play, so for a review to outright state "it's too easy" is unbalanced, if you catch my drift.
I think that makes sense as to what I'm trying to explain/achieve.. hopefully :p
This is the pinnacle of car racing on consoles and if you look at meta critic you can see alot more respected reviewers were not so bias against it over their beloved GT.
http://www.metacritic.com/games/platforms/xbox360/forzamotorsport2?q=forza%202
I'm sorry I don;t think this was a balanced fair review.
The points you make are true and I accept that if I charge up the inside of a car into a corner they shouldn't just let me through. However, I am constantly being rear ended or my rear corner nudged out of the way spinning me out which is totally wrong. You can also prevent yourself from being overtaken by blocking. Most notable on the New York track when you are in a slow car, just keep blocking and eventually they will brake rather than trying to go around you.
I don't seem to have this happen to me much, not sure why, but i agree when it does it's incredibly annoying. The way i look at it is you see that on BTCC all the time, it's just a shame there's no marshals to hand out penalties to the ai.
This is a problem that i totally agree on, it's one of those things that in real racing would lead to some form of penalty but i could imagine the outrage from the players if they introduced it to forza.
I just think the ai is some of the best in a console racer, i agree it's still not perfect but the review should credit the fact that it's pushed things forward even if it's not perfect yet.
And besides all that, consolegames are more arcade by nature, even socalled sim games like Forza or GT.. The real hardcore sim stuff is only found on the PC..