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samkiller42 10th February 2007, 15:27 Quote
Im glad someone has spoken in this way, the amount of people who tell me there systems dont work with Vista and blaming it on Vista, for once its everyone elses fault, including the Vista owners.
It was a fantastic read, thanks Brett.

Sam
kenco_uk 10th February 2007, 15:39 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by Brett

Did nobody plug two cards in and say, "Wow, this doesn't work!"?

Heh, I like that line. Driver support has always been a bit meh at times. I loved my Fortissimo II card to bits with 98se, but XP refused to acknowledge more than two speakers, which forced me to buy a card that would.
DXR_13KE 10th February 2007, 15:46 Quote
great article, this remembers me when i got a tv card from pinnacle, it cost me like.... 100€, it was nice.. it worked with XP service pack 1..... but.... when i updated to XP service pack 2 all hell broke loose, it would not work, i searched for drivers for it with no success, now pinnacle is on my hardware black list...... nvidia is almost there... but they do support linux better than ATI.

lets see what intel has for us in the GC department. and what is the power of the R600.
z3rb 10th February 2007, 15:48 Quote
Nice to see someone speak out against NVIDIA rather than Misrosoft, for once.
gvblake22 10th February 2007, 15:53 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by z3rb
Nice to see someone speak out against NVIDIA rather than Misrosoft, for once.
Indeed!
Someone had to say it, and you did an excellent job of getting the word out about the difference between "business support" and "customer support". Definitely not something you think about every day so it's always good to take a step back and look at the current market with a suspicious eye. Interesting to see that ATI could somehow manage good drivers while nVidia is "struggling" to lock down something solid. :(
Krikkit 10th February 2007, 15:53 Quote
All true there Brett tbh. nVidia's attitude to this whole thing has been shameful.

Even AMD-Ti, who are famed for poor driver efforts, have managed to get a proper set going for Vista. What does that say about the big green?
inflatable 10th February 2007, 15:59 Quote
Totally agree with the article, it's a disgrace so many current hardware isn't properly supported under Vista yet.. I have a Nividia 7900GS (Asus TOP edition) and SB Audigy 2 ZS soundcard, and the whole driver situation also keeps me from upgrading to Windows Vista atm.. I'll probably upgrade to Vista when the 1st DX10 games are released and the drivers issues are resolved.. And if the driver issues are not resloved I'll simply change brands.. I'm not brandloyal in any way, I buy what's best for me at any particular moment, Nvidia or ATI, I don't care.. So if Nvidia or Creative don't want me to use their current products under Vista because they don't have proper drivers, I'll just buy another brand.. Their loss, not mine..

I do wonder though what MS's whole position is with these issues.. I don't think they are happy so many hardware still isn't properly supported, and it keeps people from upgrading to their new Windows.. And what was the situation with Win 98 -> Win XP, anyone remember?
specofdust 10th February 2007, 16:16 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by samkiller42

It was a fantastic read, thanks Brett.

QFT. A great article, I just hope Nvidia are reading and taking this sort of thing on board.
Veles 10th February 2007, 16:31 Quote
I also find it completely bizarre, sure nVidia want everyone to buy their nice new 8800GTX, but have they forgotten that the majority of their graphics cards sales are the lower end stuff thats had better performance:price? They seem to be shooting themselves in the foot here.
specofdust 10th February 2007, 16:52 Quote
People have already paid all they're going to pay for the older cards. If you own a 7900GT in SLI you're not going to give them anything extra to get SLI drivers. But having SLI drivers for 8800GTX's mean they can market it as a good idea to buy a second, and people will be overall more likely to purchase them. This is simply Nvidia treating their customers like ****.
m0ng0lh0rde 10th February 2007, 17:18 Quote
I just recently bought a new rig, and went with nVidia, as I wanted a new vid card, and wanted to get eye candy when DX10 came out (a bit of future proofing). So, I bought a shiny new 8800GTS.

I'm with Brett, it isn't M$ fault that nVidia doesn't have working, stable drivers for Vista. I did load Vista as a dual boot, and after having seen some of the articles, and forum postings elsewhere about the current drivers for Vista being unstable, I'm sticking with my XP boot for now.

Makes me kind of wish I'd held on for a few more months, and gone with an ATI setup (been using Radeons since the first one came out, this is my first nVidia card, ever)
Ringold 10th February 2007, 17:46 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by Brett
All of this underscores a serious problem in the business ethics of companies comfortably "at the top" of the gaming world.

To be fair, there's a lot of good drivers out, but NVIDIA sure did miss the boat. A lot of others need improvements.. it seems a common theme when people review Vista; it performs well but seems to be held back by unoptimized drivers.

If management is worth its salt over at Nvidia they'll find who's responsible and, once this is resolved, take them out back and summarily execute them (or their careers at Nvidia). This definitely calls for more than not giving them their christmas bonus... I've got a feeling it won't happen, but... alas.

I was dead set on getting an 8800GTS, so this makes me a bit sad. Now I've got to wait until R600 to build my new system, but.. ethics can't let me reward their poor behavior so wait I must. My X2 3800+ and X800XL marches on.
zr_ox 10th February 2007, 17:55 Quote
Very well written and informative.

I have Vista running on a Dell Optiplex at the moment and all I can say is nice job Microsoft. It really is a dream to use when there is proper hardware compatibility.

I have almost finished modding my Stacker 830 and am ready to connect up my new uber fast components, however I'm not going to. I want to run Vista with full hardware support from day one, sure there are beta's for my 8800 & Creative card. As a consumer I expect the drivers to be available on release day, easpecially when they are such major components. I would expect a delay for my TV capture card, or even raid adapter but not Audio & Video cards.

I hate to say it but who do we have other than Creative for our audio needs???(Dont answer that...I know). ATi & Nvidia are the ONLY two GPU's that anyone with half a brain would consider as gaming cards....so why are ATi only represented with Vista? This really is a shocking state of affairs.

Creative & Nvidia have become way too big for their boots and somebody needs to give them a shake. Perhaps Ati will scare the hell out of Nvidia at Cebit with the RD600, let hope so. That just leaves Creative now perhaps Razer can help by redesigning their Audio card to be a real contender.
edmoses 10th February 2007, 18:14 Quote
It is also worth saying that one of the main reasons for the delay between the business and consumer releases of Vista was to allow the various hardware makers to get their drivers in order. The business community were always going to put the new O/S into a test cycle to work out how to deploy it - so not having all of the various drivers is just a part of the process.

For any consumer upgrading to Vista they need it to work on their hardware out of the box (okay with a few Internet downloads). Most of the manufacturers seem to have understood this and have decent drivers out there that work - with the promise of more optimisation in the case of companies such as ATI. The fact that some companies seem to have not taken this onboard seems to indicate that they do not want our support as a community in the future......

Ed
naokaji 10th February 2007, 18:18 Quote
vista was released later than originally planned.... yet certain company's still fail to deliver good driver support for it....

as for creative..... well..... there's not only the rushed out audigy drivers for vista...
where are the pci express version of the x-fi lineup?
Havok154 10th February 2007, 18:29 Quote
I have a good feeling I may move over to the ATI camp next time I need a vid card upgrade. I've always loved Nvidia, but the way they are treating customers this time around is just not something I'll take lightly. I won't be buying any card from the 8800, R600 series, but the one after that I probably will, I'll have to see how I feel about them at that point. It's definatly a bad thing for me to actually consider ATI after using Nvidia since the Riva TNT cards. (I did have a 3dFX card at one point, but when they died, I went back to Nvidia)
Brooxy 10th February 2007, 18:57 Quote
Well this has to be the most true to life thing i've read in a while. I have Vista...in fact it's on the machine i'm using right now to ype this on, and it's a very nice system.

Another company I belive that needs a kick up the backside would have to be Belkin...to get a belkin wifi dongle working properly working, you have to go trawling through google, until you find the chip driver and not the wifi stick driver.

Although looking on the bright side, I have a wifi connection, without all the resource hogging belkin software...
antiHero 10th February 2007, 19:15 Quote
Damn I never thought about it this way, but its true.
Very good read Brett, thanks!
ralph.pickering 10th February 2007, 19:28 Quote
Ah! The all too familiar wails of anguish of the early adopter. Kids, lean forward - listen closely to what ol' grandpa Ralph gotta say. Never, EVER buy a Microsoft OS before service pack 1.

Yes. nVidia are crap for not bringing out the drivers on time. Creative are pure scum for trying to pull a fast one. But come on. It's the same thing time and again. XP. Yep. 2000? Definitely. Win98... not so much, but then it was really only 95 with the Plus pack and a few tweaks. Windows 95 - hoo boy, fun times! Win 3.11... Well I'm not that old.

Seriously though, until DX10 games start shipping en masse, is there any real reason to upgrade? I'm sure I'll find out... just as soon as SP1 is out :)
JaredC01 10th February 2007, 19:54 Quote
Love the article.

I find it a bit funny and ironic that the company that's been known for having terrible graphics card drivers had 100% Vista support for both 32 bit and 64 bit before Vista was out, and nVidia is pulling this move in an attempt to force people to upgrade.

Now I'm even more glad I'm an ATi fanboy :P
Flibblebot 10th February 2007, 20:07 Quote
The reason people always gave for not using an MS operating system before SP1 was down to stability. Microsoft had the reputation (in the business IT world) for pushing unstable OSes out of the door, so IT departments would wait until an odd-numbered service pack before deploying (it was SP3 with NT4 & SP1 with 2000, I believe). It had nothing to do with driver support because most business PCs don't need many drivers outside of what Windows installs.

I'm dual booting Vista, and driver issues aside, I haven't had a single problem with Windows itself.

Out of all the hardware I have installed on my PC, only 3 pieces are working properly (or at all) - my Nikon camera, which works out of the box; my ATi graphics card; and my Ximeta network storage box. My soundcard (XiFi) is running beta drivers atm.

All of the other hardware is made by large companies, and none of those companies has drivers even available (most of the hardware manufacturers state that drivers will be available "in the first half of 2007"). Not good.

It's not even as though they can blame the new Vista driver model, or the fact they're not allowed to run in kernel mode any more - Microsoft has been talking about that for about 18 months now, and the final driver model was finalised before Vista went to public beta. We've had Vista available in beta form since the middle of 2006, and there's just no excuse for every hardware manufacturer to have fully working drivers available for launch day.

Like everyone else, I'm annoyed - but at the hardware manufacturers, not Microsoft.
perplekks45 10th February 2007, 20:43 Quote
Very nice article! ;)
Have to agree with you in almost every aspect.

I have Vista running since Thursday and yea, it was a pain in the a** to get my WLAN card working (1 hour) and no, I'm not satisfied with the drivers for my 8800GTS and hell yes, I'm pissed because Office 2007 won't install, whether in Admin mode or not and all that safety stuff is more annoying than useful. Why the hell do I have to say "YES! I DO want to start that bloody program! Just like the last 20 times..." and if I turn off the user account whateverthehelltheycallit I keep getting annoyed by that little red + white shield telling me something so bad happened to my security that Vista won't stop throwing pop-ups at me until I turn user account youknowwhatImean back on. Oh, did I mention McAfee VirusScan Plus 2007 is a program with "known issues" running on Vista? And 3D Mark 06 won't start if you don't install DX9.0c?

Other than that: I runs great on my setup, it looks even better with all the eye candy turned on (even though XP + StyleXP or Windows Blinds ain't that far away), the Sidebar is a nice addition (yea, I know Konfabulator/Yahoo Widgets...), most of the stuff still works or got updates to make it work, nearly all my hardware got detected in like 5 sec and all in all I just like Vista. At the moment it's as good as XP, prettier, a bit slower IMO and almost bug free. I still remember XP less than 2 months after official launch. I think MS learned something. They still have a lot to do/learn but they're on their way. Some others (nVidia, McAfee...) are not.

But before you ask: If I had had to pay for Vista, I wouldn't be anywhere close to the level of satisfaction I am right now. :) But long live university and my Business edition of Vista FOR FREE. :D
sadffffff 10th February 2007, 20:43 Quote
*applauds article*
well said
randosome 10th February 2007, 21:36 Quote
All this driver support stuff sickens me, Ive lost count of how much stuff just ends up getting trashed because they can no longer be bothered to make drivers, or update drivers (because the old ones have terrible bugs in)

However, technically, when you bought your hardware, did they actually say "we promise to support the latest OS and our card for the next 5 years" ?
Now ill probably get flamed for that comment, but technically, am i not right ?

Even hardware that's 12 months old usually doesn't get driver updates, or software has the same problem, requiring you to purchase a "new" version

Its not just hardware that this happens, its software as well, everyone just wants their cake and they want to eat it to, sometimes i wonder if people who hate computers are on to something
lamboman 10th February 2007, 21:38 Quote
Can I just say, that there isn't an official driver, but there is a beta here: http://www.nvidia.com/object/winvista_x86_100.59.html

It supports SLI for 8800's in DirectX 9, but not 10, and, as the link says, is for Vista.
Happy gaming 8800 owners (can't wait to become one!!)
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