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In my day, this was all Dot Coms

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smashie 29th June 2005, 14:44 Quote
£2.80 damn where do you drink, over £3 for most beers in my local now
Krikkit 29th June 2005, 14:52 Quote
I can see your point haz, and it's all going down the pan imho. The freedom of music CD's and media is fantastic at the moment.
Quote:
Originally Posted by smashie
£2.80 damn where do you drink, over £3 for most beers in my local now
Bloody hell, you southerners drink expensive stuff... It's about £2.40 max round here, with it getting to ~£1.50 or so if you pick the right places. :)
Piratetaco 29th June 2005, 15:06 Quote
you'll never see an internet tax. the government will just do what they do now bugger the motorist.


£2.80 a pint. may i suggest you look here?
dom_ 29th June 2005, 15:21 Quote
start smoking, good way to pay taxes, so others dont go up
MrWillyWonka 29th June 2005, 15:21 Quote
£2.80, about right tbh in the south! Great article and pretty creative. Internet/computer tax probably won't come about, I can't see the government coming about with this, not sure how they would enforce it, especially because the internet can be used anywhere on different devicies. And theres the point of what is classed as a computer? Almost every electrical good today!
Hamish 29th June 2005, 15:26 Quote
lol about £2.40 in most the pubs here, and thats in london :p
Mattt 29th June 2005, 15:35 Quote
how rare, there was a question im my A-level genral studies paper in which my awnser ranted along those lines. ie radio, tv, phone, killed by internet.

i think the origional question was something like "how has TV affected radio listeners" so i went off on a bit of a tangent but oh well :)
Da Dego 29th June 2005, 16:51 Quote
Ya know, we already tax internet service over here. :)

It's a brave new world out there...
frodo 29th June 2005, 17:36 Quote
LoL my sister works @ weatherspoons

the thing im fearing is the government are going to remove nearly all types of media, with a restriction on everything, which means in effect you can kiss all anti government rock goodbye, as they would have a chance to channel it all

i just think the government are trying to stop everything we can do. the stage where it becomes a pay per listen/view day is the day i move country (or even world)
macroman 29th June 2005, 18:57 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by Krikkit
I can see your point haz, and it's all going down the pan imho. The freedom of music CD's and media is fantastic at the moment.

At least get the authors name right!
Firehed 30th June 2005, 00:08 Quote
ok enough about the alcohol people, that's not the point of the article

I agree and disagree. You're way too right about the lesser of two evils bit. But there's only so much bs Joe Consumer will take from the suits before some sort of resistance movement is started. It all comes back to the difficulty of organizing something like that, or else it would have happened already. Well piracy is that resistance, so to speak, as you get your music as cheap as your net connection, void of the DRM junk. THAT's just a matter of how long before every bit sent and recieved from your connection is monitored, and whether decentralized trackers come out before the MPAA sues every software maker that transfers data in any way, legal or not.

I think it's just a matter of starting by doing something nuts enough to get on the news, but still get the message across so more people could know about the going-towards-communism-like-control resistance effort. It's like againsttcpa - yeah some people know about it (and yes, bad example, they're not the most accurate site ever) but the more people that know about their effective loss of their property (face it, TC makes your computer someone else's), something will start against it.

We just need someone with way too much money, beacuse that's what it takes to get anything done in most places. I can't speak for UK, but I know it's true for the US.

/edit - and I've just emailed NBC about it :D
3.5SE 30th June 2005, 00:36 Quote
Congrats on becoming a dad. I'm in the same boat as you. Six weeks now with the little bundle of joy and sleep deprivation is really getting to me. I know exactly what your talking about the screaming for no good reason. We are dealing with colic and reflux, the double whammy. Good luck to you.
cpemma 30th June 2005, 01:07 Quote
Quote:
Unfortunately, to get the price of CDs down to a more reasonable figure...
.
So what's a reasonable figure? An average CD is around the same price as a modest night's boozing, half that if you're out with the lady. It's less than the curry you misguidedly go on for, I spend nearly as much on a days fags. Let's grumble about the mark-up on spectacle frames, trainers, any clothing with a pretentious label on it. Even graphics cards, ffs.

For the long-term pleasure a good CD brings I think they're cheap at the price. They only appear expensive because you know so many people are getting the same for free.
Blademrk 30th June 2005, 01:08 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by 3.5SE
I know exactly what your talking about the screaming for no good reason. We are dealing with colic and reflux, the double whammy.

Tell me about it, I've got 2 of them here, my nephew (16 months) and my niece (4 months).
Cleo suffers with colic really bad, once she starts crying with it you can't stop her... but the smiles you get from her when shes happy more than makes up for it. And Taylor's just started learning to talk (his favourite word so far Hiya, followed by Ta) just wait 'til you get to that stage :D
alextwo 30th June 2005, 01:38 Quote
Well the future certainly looks like its going to be more expensive unless there is some kind of mass boycott on computers, TV and music - which wont ever happen because there will allways be more than enough people willing to pay over the odds.
:: kna :: 30th June 2005, 08:55 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by cpemma
.
So what's a reasonable figure? An average CD is around the same price as a modest night's boozing, half that if you're out with the lady. It's less than the curry you misguidedly go on for, I spend nearly as much on a days fags. Let's grumble about the mark-up on spectacle frames, trainers, any clothing with a pretentious label on it. Even graphics cards, ffs.

For the long-term pleasure a good CD brings I think they're cheap at the price. They only appear expensive because you know so many people are getting the same for free.
a) Cigarettes are an awful example, you spend that much because you're being taxed to hell on something you're addicted to. You would save a lot more money by simply giving up.

b) Yes, absolutely, let's grumble about the markup on everything given it's the same situation. However right now we're talking about CDs.

c) It's been widely known for YEARS, even before the Internet had heard of things like Napster, that the markup on CDs is extortionate and they could be produced, sold and profits made on half the cost, if not quarter.

I could not care less if people are getting them for free, whether that be lack of morals or one-in-the-eye for the record companies. £13 for an album might not be much to you or me, however when I was buying CDs as a kid finding the money to listen to music by bands I liked was hard work and given a very high percentage of the music buying public is the 11-17 age range, I'd say they're very much screwing their fans.

Also, if you have a few new releases in the same month we could be looking at around £60-£90 on picking up a few CDs by your favourite artists. Even for those of us who can afford the odd luxury, that's no small amount to come out of my spare cash. Especially given the fact I'm less likely to want to 'waste' the money on an album I'm unsure about.

There were around 10 albums I wanted this month, a few by newcomers who may be good, however I had to ditch them in favour of established bands because I just couldn't afford to take the risk. I probably have £500 worth of albums now which I hate and wonder what I've missed out on due to the cost.

£13 is too much, £9.99 is a meagre effort.. let's drop to 6 or 7 quid for a new release and we're getting somewhere.
mclean007 30th June 2005, 12:51 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by :: kna ::
...

It's been widely known for YEARS, even before the Internet had heard of things like Napster, that the markup on CDs is extortionate and they could be produced, sold and profits made on half the cost, if not quarter.

I could not care less if people are getting them for free, whether that be lack of morals or one-in-the-eye for the record companies. £13 for an album might not be much to you or me, however when I was buying CDs as a kid finding the money to listen to music by bands I liked was hard work and given a very high percentage of the music buying public is the 11-17 age range, I'd say they're very much screwing their fans.

...

£13 is too much, £9.99 is a meagre effort.. let's drop to 6 or 7 quid for a new release and we're getting somewhere.
Not so long ago you'd be lucky to get much change out of £15 for a new album, but now it's a lot better due to pressure from the online discount CD stores. You can pick up most new releases for £8.75 or even less if you shop around at amazon, play, cd-wow and the like, and Tesco always has them on at the somewhat bizarre price of £9.77, so the knock-on has been that HMV and co have been forced to stop charging QUITE so extortionately. Even so, there's no way in God's earth I'd pay £13 for something I could have for £8.75 simply by waiting a few days for postage.
3.5SE 30th June 2005, 13:10 Quote
If you've ever watched Cribs on MTV you'd download your arse off. Some of these guys I've never heard of and the money they throw away is insane. So downloading music has really hurt the artists right?? There are more crap artists out there than ever before. More cookie cutter groups making tons of money. If downloading was as big a problem as they make it out to be then the show would be called Shacks not Cribs. Does one really need more than one Bentley???
Dodge 30th June 2005, 13:45 Quote
And with the government wanting to stop the TAX loophole with play, prices are just going to go up. :(
cpemma 30th June 2005, 16:56 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by mclean007
Not so long ago you'd be lucky to get much change out of £15 for a new album...
When I first started buying CDs they were around that mark. That was around 18 years ago; the UK Retail Price Index has almost doubled, along with wages. They were well over twice the price of vinyl, but you know what? Vinyl died.

I'm well aware CDs cost little to produce - hell, they give one away with the newspapers every week - but every market charges whatever the consumer will pay. That's how come I still buy tobacco and alcohol. And why yesterday's top cpu is now half the original price. So 11-year-olds can't afford to buy the latest albums? I can't afford lots of luxuries. Life's a bitch.
Quote:
Originally Posted by kna
...we could be looking at around £60-£90 on picking up a few CDs by your favourite artists. Even for those of us who can afford the odd luxury, that's no small amount to come out of my spare cash.
You've been in the very lucky position of plenty of disposable income and not much responsibility. I use the past tense, a family changes that. ;)
Da Dego 30th June 2005, 17:21 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by cpemma
When I first started buying CDs they were around that mark. That was around 18 years ago; the UK Retail Price Index has almost doubled, along with wages. They were well over twice the price of vinyl, but you know what? Vinyl died.

I'm well aware CDs cost little to produce - hell, they give one away with the newspapers every week - but every market charges whatever the consumer will pay. That's how come I still buy tobacco and alcohol. And why yesterday's top cpu is now half the original price. So 11-year-olds can't afford to buy the latest albums? I can't afford lots of luxuries. Life's a bitch.
You've been in the very lucky position of plenty of disposable income and not much responsibility. I use the past tense, a family changes that. ;)
cpemma,

yeah, life's a bitch and it's hard and it's great to say that "well, you just suck it up and deal with it, because other ********'s expensive too."

Maybe this is something that's going on in America more than the UK, so correct me if I'm off base here. Over here, the middle-class is literally disappearing. Our side of the pond is quickly turning into the haves and the have-nots. The ones who have will spend any stupid price the market sets, because they don't mind so much. The have-nots go without or steal. What used to be a gradient system has now turned very much into caste black and white. Predatory lending, price of education, sin-taxes, etc., the list goes on and on but the idea is that the companies and even the government get their money from the "have" group now, not from a broad spectrum of consumers and citizens. So they cater to their affordable base. It is creating a huge division in our culture that has been visible by the polarization of our society in politics, religion, etc.

Rather than structuring to help sew this widening gap together with the things that used to be equalizing (the entertainment industry, which all types frequented and taste was by individuals instead of classes), they are instead only catering to one side of it, the side with the money. This breeds resentment in the other side, leading to more theft, and an eventual who knows how bad radical movement. Firehed's right...there is a revolution starting already in the form of piracy. But history has taught that revolutions start with a few pebbles and end with a bloody avalanche.

There IS something wrong with $18 a cd. It's called gouging...it's saying "Why only make $2 when we can make $8 off the rich kid!" There's a lot that's wrong with $2.15/gallon of gas, which the $40k SUV drivers have no problems filling their 25-30gal tanks with, but the dude with the beaten-up honda has trouble finding the spare change for. And $2.50/gallon of milk. And $4 for your pack of cigarettes. Income inflation over here stopped after 2001, but price inflation seems to still be rampant.

There's a lot wrong here, my friend. The writing on the wall is still blurry, but gets clearer by the day. You and I and Chris and probably a lot of us here are thankful to be in the "have" groups. But don't turn your eye away from the fact that things are moving, there are problems, and they are getting bigger.
eddie_dane 30th June 2005, 17:47 Quote
The middle-class is not disappearing in America, it consists of about 70% of Americans. Granted, the gap in wage earning is widening but just because the rich are making more money and can afford more things doesn't mean that the middle class is making less (only relatively).

Record companies don't focus on the 20% of kids that can afford to pay more, that's proposterous. Wal-mart is the worlds largest seller of cd's and dvd's in the world. I don't see a lot of wealthy kids in there buying music. Instead, Wal-marts and Targets are full of middle class kids buying cd's and dvd's. The price of cd's is cannot be "gouging" by definition. Gouging occurs when supply is so low and the product is in dire demand, like drinking water after a hurricane or gasoline during a shortage. CD's are just music and the price is set at what middle class kids will pay, simply put.

If kids didn't pay $18 for a cd, it would sit in the retail stores and further up the chain in the distribution warehouse. At some point, either the retailer or the distributor would decide cut the cost because warehouse/retail space costs money. It's basic economics.
cpemma 30th June 2005, 18:12 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by Da Dego
...You and I and Chris and probably a lot of us here are thankful to be in the "have" groups. But don't turn your eye away from the fact that things are moving, there are problems, and they are getting bigger.
I was brought up in the "didn't have" group, so I maybe appreciate that in life I can't have everything I want, I have to pick and choose. We're still talking luxuries, nobody starved because they didn't have the latest album or went barefoot because they didn't have £60 trainers.

Resentment against the rich isn't new, but did the French or Russian revolutions, even the American one, bring equality of purchasing power? Instead of manning the barricades over the profit on luxury items, the reformers should focus on equality in education, health care and justice.

Piracy isn't a revolution, it's getting something for nothing, with slim chance of getting caught. Do the pirates think to burn a spare copy for the poor family down the road?
Da Dego 30th June 2005, 19:21 Quote
Eddie, I understand your point but differ in one thing. You mention the rich are getting richer and the middle class are not. Therefore, the widening which you directly acknowledge is illustrative of the disappearing middle class. That there is not an increase for those below a certain line. The 'simple concept' of ecomonics you mention fails to note that if everything else is inflating, that equal money-earning is in reality less, because that same money cannot buy the things it used to. That little "relatively" you put in there is a whole lot more than you acknowledge in your argument. The walmarts and targets of the world have still raised prices over the years on CDs, whereas the families who shop there have not retained the same benefits of inflation in their paychecks.

The "middle class" being 70% of the people is simply picking the income median and counting 35% one way and another way...the figure itself is not indicative of the actual numbers underneath. In this country the top 2-3% control a bit over 30% of the moving capital, as represented by our tax brackets (I'm a tax accountant and financial manager by trade, so I have to read a lot of our senate notes, internal revenue code, etc). That leaves the other 70% to be divided amongst 97-98% of the population.

@cpemma, there are many things we could and should be fighting for, including those you mention. I recognize there is a growing (and unfortunate) lack of 'proper' focus, particularly in the people with the $80 shoes. But that market for $80 and up shoes is growing, because there's more profit, and the $79 and lower is shrinking because there's still a basic amount of material that go into a shoe, and they're not as profitable. Eventually, there won't be many below $80 shoes at all. My point is not that these luxuries are what it's all about, but that what you right off as "these are luxuries, deal with it kids...we can't all have a Hummer" are really mirroring a much greater trend.

I hope that makes sense? By your response, I don't think the point I was really trying to make came through as much as I had wanted (I get a little irked at the subject, because I deal with a LOT of very rich people who really illustrate my point on a daily basis). My growing up was without a lot of luxuries, too. But now I am the second level of a fast-growing family business, and I watch the parents who raised me forget all about their own roots, and manage money and do taxes for more people who are doing the same thing. So far, the only way I personally have been able to fight the systems that be is by giving some free advice to people who can't afford to pay our office's expensive fee, because the ability to have accessible knowledge is getting more expensive, too.
Quote:
Originally Posted by cpemma
Piracy isn't a revolution, it's getting something for nothing, with slim chance of getting caught. Do the pirates think to burn a spare copy for the poor family down the road?
Sometimes. And sometimes it really is a one-off in the eye of the giants. As for your question, Yes, some of us did. Back in the day when I pirated for my own music (be it copying tapes back in the day or working with some of the first commercial CD writers I got as a bonus from a job I worked at), I used to share it with my buddies who didn't have it, either, many worse off than me. Everybody with bit-torrent is doing that right now, whether intentionally or not. The very idea of piracy makes it income-independent. Sometimes you'll get just cheap SOBs who don't want to pay, and other times you'll get people who would if they could.

Blast it, now I feel like one of those whiney hippy tree-huggers! :D
3.5SE 30th June 2005, 19:37 Quote
There's no doubt we've got problems in America. The problems get greater everyday. It's about time to call a time out and start over. Our government is full of fat cats that have lost touch with the average American. I love this country to death but each night I go home from work and watch the news scratching my head at the latest and greatest out of Washington. We have problems but they can be fixed, all it takes is some people that care and a congress that's less focused on party politics and more focused on the needs of the people they represent. I consider myself a Republican but kind of in the middle, by no means a bleeding heart liberal or a hard line conservative - I just want congress to make decisions based on what's good for the people and not who's got the most money to line their or their party's pockets and re-election funds. I'm a middle class guy feeling the pinch every day of an America that doesn't make anything anymore, that grows more and more dependent on other countries, and that has a warring attitude and believes it's the world's policeman. Sometimes military action is necessary but for god sake have an exit strategy. It pains me everyday to watch more of our young people die. God bless our troops. Sorry for the rant.
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