How the Xbox 360 affects PC gamers

Originally Posted by Dinh
:( This is going to end the modding scene because it has many things that Modded boxes have now

No offence meant, but wtf are you on about?

<A88>

Thanks, bigz... :) Reality checks are always helpful. I still wonder if this beast can do all it's supposed to, though.

And seriously, Dinh, wtf? :) I'm with alex, not sure I understand.

I'd like to see how this thing multitasks before I start calling it a PC killer. The problem with consoles is that their architectures are generally geared towards single task performance, ie. gaming. So even if this is capable of streaming mp3s, surfing the web and playing video, can it do them simultaneously? Assuming its three cores can take out-of-order instructions it seems conceivable. The PS3 (or whatever the hell they're going to call it) was hyped up like this a few months ago with buzz words like "cell processors." Come to find out (and there's an excellent article over at Anandtech) this technology is only useful in specific situations, desktop computing not being among them. Now I don't know who would want to watch Terminator 3 in HD and play Katamari Damacy at the same time, but I have a feeling that would tax the system. I can think of a few people, inluding myself, who might want to stream their mp3s while playing a video game.

I guess what I'm trying to say is let's wait and see before we get all moist in the nether regions.

Please note I am not suggesting that the power PC based processors in the Xbox 360 operate in the same way the cell processors of the next-gen PS will. Perhaps someone could inform me if they operate the same way conventional desktop processors do.

If you want the PVR functions, you'll still need a Media Centre PC, as MrHaz states that the
XBox 360 includes "Media Center Extender" ie. a frontend client (playback only) for MCE.

Originally Posted by bigz
The R420 has 96 ALU's in total. Each pixel shader has 5 ALUs: two vector, two scalar and one texture ALU per pipeline. Each vertex shader has two ALU's: one vector and one scalar.

The R420 does not have 96 ALUs. The usual counting method is 2 (1 full + 1 mini) in each pixel pipeline (the texture unit is not counted) + 1 in each vertex pipeline: 2* 16 + 6 = 38 ALUs of which 16 are the less capable minis.

From Beyond3D:

The pixel shader core in R420 remains largely the same as R300, with a texture address unit, and two ALU's each

Pixel Pipeline
Vertex Pipeline

Originally Posted by bigz
The R500 has 48 unified ALU's that are each capable of 1 vector and 1 scalar op per cycle. In that sense the R500 could work similarly to a dual core - it's capable of multiple operations per cycle. That's where the 48 billion shader ops per second come from.

If this is how it works, then it is 48 billion instructions per second. Normal counting would reckon each vector instruction as 4 operations. Giving (4 + 1) * 48 * 500Mhz = 120 billion operations per second. Not like Microsoft to miss an oppertunity to blow its own trumpet. ;)

This is really amazing, I can't wait to see Nintendo and Sony's answers to this amazing feat. I mean, to make a triple-core 3.2ghz processor and a 512mb graphics card with wireless controllers and a pretty box for under $800USD is insane. Dual-core processors cost nearly that much alone, and the 512mb cards that we have available for pc are ~$400 alone. I wonder if it will be possible to snag the card and the CPU out of a 360 and mod it for your pc. Meh, there will probably be plenty that will try this whilst voiding their 360 warranty and ruining their $6000 workstation.

-Rob

I'm sure this thing will do everything it say on the tin, and then more with add-ons.

Slip a Xandros partition on there and I am sure it will rock. As for it being a threat to PC Gaming...probably not.

It is always amazing however that the programmers manage to squeeze such great performance out of modest hardware. Considering the massive jump in processor/gpu power I am sure we can all expect something special.

I still prefer the SONY option though, game titles are always better imo.

my 2 cents ;)

Have a nice weekend

Originally Posted by Sva4g3&*
This is really amazing, I can't wait to see Nintendo and Sony's answers to this amazing feat. I mean, to make a triple-core 3.2ghz processor and a 512mb graphics card with wireless controllers and a pretty box for under $800USD is insane. Dual-core processors cost nearly that much alone, and the 512mb cards that we have available for pc are ~$400 alone.

It isn't a 512MB card: the GPU shares that with all the other parts of the system. Whereas on a discrete graphics card it has exclusive access to all its memory, and at a higher speed (leaving aside the EDRAM).

Though I agree on the price.

Part of the reason console can extract such great performance out of modest hardware is the necessary resolution. A TV only runs at less than 640x480, and HDTV only brings it up to like 1080 x something something. ;)

Not NEARLY as complicated as when we all cram 2048 onto a 19' monitor. Yet somehow, noone seems to miss the resolution on TV.... hmmmm....

1080 is 1920 x 1080.

Yeah... This sort of is the end of the do-everything PC, isn't it? We're going to see more and more of a move towards less expensive, use-oriented PCs. A car PC, to manage radio signals, maps, GPS, and whatnot, a media center PC to play DVDs, record shows of cable, and whatnot, and a lot more light-weight web console PCs. And, of course, the really powerful Xbox 360 (Or maybe the Xbox 720) for gaming. Although, I will miss gaming with my mouse and keyboard...

Originally Posted by Nexxo
Why jump from x8 to selling x32 CD-ROM drives if you can first make a healthy profit on x16 drives, and then do the same again a year later on x32 drives?

that is exactly the problem. companies make only minor changes to computer parts to make a lot of money. Intel or AMD could make a 10ghz processor, but they wont, because they can make money off a 3.8ghz, 4ghz, 4.2ghz, etc. now microsoft has done done the opposite basicly, and jumped ahead big time. this may have a silver lining for computers, and make PC tech advance quicker, and keep costs low, so people wont abandon the PC as a gaming platform and get 360s for gaming. plus, microsoft must be loosing a massive amount of money on 360s, they are worth way more than 300 pounds or euros or whatever.

Originally Posted by mattthegamer463
Intel or AMD could make a 10ghz processor, but they wont,

actually, they can't.

well, they can, but they can't.

intel have an ALU running at 10GHz. but they can't build the rest of the chip fast enough.

i don't think intel and AMD have chips nearly as fast as we all imagine in the works. i'm guessing maybe ~1GHz faster than what's on the market, but remember, speed doesn't matter...

Originally Posted by Derek Baker
The R420 does not have 96 ALUs. The usual counting method is 2 (1 full + 1 mini) in each pixel pipeline (the texture unit is not counted) + 1 in each vertex pipeline: 2* 16 + 6 = 38 ALUs of which 16 are the less capable minis.

Read ATI's specs: http://www.ati.com/products/radeonx800/RADEONX800ArchitectureWhitePaper.pdf

Go to page six for the vertex shader configuration, and check the diagram, counting the number of ALU's.

The RADEON X800 vertex processing engine consists of six programmable vertex processing units, plus a series of fixed function stages. Each vertex processing unit actually includes two Arithmetic Logic Units (ALUs): a 128-bit floating point vector ALU plus a 32-bit floating point scalar ALU. There is also flow control circuitry that allows loops, subroutines, and branches to be executed.

Go to page ten for the pixel shader configuration, check the diagram.

Each pixel shader unit in the RADEON X800 actually consists of five distinct ALUs: two 72-bit floating point vector ALUs, two 24-bit floating point scalar ALUs, and a 96-bit texture address ALU. These ALUs access a high speed datapath to shader state memory, which consists of 32 temporary registers, 32 constant registers, a few special purpose registers, and a set of interpolated values for color, position, texture co-ordinates, etc. There is also an output combiner as well as F-buffer logic for handling multi-pass shaders.

If we use ATI's method of counting, we could technically say that R500 has 96 ALU's. (48 x 2 - one vector, one scalar per pipeline)

Edit: maths is not my greatest asset late at night. Consequently, I should've said 92 ALU's last night, not 96. :)

I know all the specs sound great, integrated this...20Gb that. I was working as the purchaser for a Video/Game Rental store during the PS2-Xbox-Dreamcast release era, and tons of specs were tossed around then as well. Are PCs still around? Obviously. Are they still used for the same things as before? Clearly. Is there a word processor for Xbox/PS2? Not really (Linux, I know, but is it really affecting the use of a PS2?). Do people still game on PCs? Most definitely.

I think consoles are great. I think tech innovation for consoles is great. But the hype surrounding these releases is insane. How long did it take for the actual HDD for the PS2 to come out? Release claimed it would be available (I think within 6 months USA was the claim at PS2 release, could be wrong tho).

Personally the PSP is the only hardware IMO that lived up to its specs/release hype. Hopefully the 360 can, but do you really think a device with only 20Gb and unified architecture will replace a PC? It will undoubtedly be VERY good at graphics and physics, but we all use PCs for many more things in play/business/hobby.

I'm not a fanboy or hater, I just remember the hype surrounding the first Xbox and PS2.

I remember he ps2 being marketed with what was it called ? the emotion engine I think with the handcontroller that would give feedback well ok the screens on grand turismo 3 where nice and playing colin macrae rally did give you a rumble in your hand but it didnt emote me more than usual :)

I just think charging for connecting the current xbox to the xbox live network was the big downfall. I honestly don't care enough about multiplayer x-box gaming to pay for live. Why spend $50/month on broadband, then $20 on top of that for xbox live? (I haven't played xbox live, so I am speaking with no experience.)

If I could use Valve's Steam with the xbox 2 without paying MS, then I'd buy it when it first came out, but I was somewhat dissappointed with the initial xbox. It is fun for all my FPS, racing, and of course Namcomuseum, but for "real" gaming I use my new laptop.

I think microsoft is making a giant leap here, and I think the specs look very impressive. While the console is cheaper, the lack of uses kills the enthusiasm for me. I mean, it's cool that if I bougth a microsoft media center PC, I could play media from it, but isn't that what a media center PC does anyway without the xbox360? But what about my divx collection? what about my mp3's? what about my .png's? what about my non-microsoft file formats and apps?

The best thing about xBox is modding it to be more open to new formats and functionality. Microsoft opened it up a bit, but only to microsoft formats. Unfortunately the extent of my microsoft enthusasm ends at Windows XP pro. When the community is allowed free reign, I'll jump on it, but as it stands, closed as tightly as it is, I'll probably wait for it to drop in price before considering.

Besides, isn't it fun to hack up HL2 with custom mods and patches? Downloading updates and mods from unauthorized sources?

I applaud microsoft for it's efforts and accomplishments, but it still doesn't look to be replacing my PC anytime soon.

personally i find the original xbox to be a waste of time, sure there are 1 or 2 decent games, but i remember when they were asking £300 for them, they didnt sell so they dropped it to £200 (nearly got one then) and they said they'd refund other people the £100! i mean, that is desperate!

i think that the xbox360 will be like the original xbox, will go well for the first month (hype) then crash!

"liquid cooling" im sorry, heatpipes cant REALLY be classed as liquid cooling as they are actually convection coolers!

i think that microsoft are going to have loads of stupid ass protection on the xbox 360, meaning you can only watch certain things on it (no divx/xvid) no illegal MP3's or ripped mp3's etc etc

and the worst bit will be (which i fear they will do) is do a steam-like thing, when they see enough people using xbox live, they will introduce a system so when you want to play you have to be online etc etc, which will reduce illegal copies etc, but also reduce players feelings, steam truly p!$$'d me off the other day, wanted to join my own 24 player server "your game isnt up to date" "content server 35" "please wait 94 minutes" i said f*** it and decided id rather try my luck, exit steam and restart it, then i joined "content server 1" thinking FINALLY, then "sorry the server is too busy"

getting hacked off now! wasting time to play a game i legally bought and just want to join my legally owned server... but no, i have to wait for steam to stop pissing around!!!

if microsoft introduce a system like that, i doubt people will go with it, xbox live is bad enough as it is with people having to pay to get a subscription, why couldnt it be like pc games, just get the game, updates etc etc, then join a server and start blowin' people away (say joint operations, battlefield vietnam, 1942)

i mean, the specs of the machine look AMAZING to say the least, but why the hell arent we seeing this tech in PC's, what was here first! pc's or consoles?

where do microsoft make their money, pc's or consoles?, where do nvidia make their money, pc's or consoles?, where do ATI make their money? pc or consoles... i think you'll find the answers to all the questions is in PC's not consoles

the console market is pretty pointless at the moment, ive got 2 ps2's and a few games, and i feel that the ps2 is very restrictive, i would love to be able to watch say DIVX's on it!

i doubt the xbox360 will be able to play DIVX's and what not, but i just hope someone hack the os, it would be nice to see XP or equivelent on it to be able to use it as a natural PC

i want to see what sony will have to fight back with ("cell" multicore CPU) and i want to see how long it will be before Apple get into the business!

Originally Posted by frodo
where do ATI make their money?

You might be surprised at ATI's share [cdrinfo.com] of the consumer electronics market, of which console systems are a part.

Just because products haven't been branded with a logo, doesn't mean they don't have a hand in them.

I'm surprised so many people are asking where microsoft is going to make there money on the 360. For one..there not going to lose a MAJOR MAJOR amount of money on each console. Not only do they have a company that is producing there videocard (buy direct from them + bulk) but they have ties in with tons of different companies. They can buy most of there stuff for cheap, in bulk, outside of the consumer market and they know they can. They'll lose whatever they need (its microsoft..they can afford it) but there not going to lose THAT much. They get money from games, probly ati for advertising, xboxlive, all there after release Peripherals and Upgrades. I highly doubt they're going to lose that much (or even anything) within the first year of the 360.

Let's stay on topic please...

Originally Posted by article
The machine packs a 20GB hard drive, which isn't enough for a great deal of media storage.

I've read that the hard drive will be removable and upgradable

Originally Posted by gamespot
The current design features a removable 20GB hard drive for game saves, Xbox Live file downloads, and storing pictures, music, and movies. Microsoft has indicated that it can make larger hard drives in the future if there's a demand. Since the hard drive is removable, 360 owners can use it to transfer save games and media over to a friend's house. Memory cards will be 64MB in size, but, as with the original Xbox, most users will only need a memory card to transfer data to a different system, since most people will already have a hard drive for game saves and downloadable content.

Theres one reason i can think of that this product wount hurt the pc market. Updates. Yes i know it has a HDD to store updates but so did the xbox and the only thing that ever updated was xbox live. i mean, like the farcry 1.3 patch was awesome with the introduction of HDR(visually stunning). you wount get that kidn of stuff on an xbox because you dont install the game.

i am dubious about the new XBOX as its specs seem too good to be true