Gaming 15 - The StarCraft 2 Argument

Posted on 6th Aug 2010 at 14:46 by Podcast with 29 comments

Is StarCraft 2 any good? Harry thinks so, explaining that he loves the varied missions and excellent side-content that bolsters the singleplayer campaign. Joe, on the other hand, reckons that the plot is predictable, the writing dire and that the gameplay hasn't moved on since the original.

Now, Joe and Harry go head to head in a podcast that critics are calling 'mildly entertaining' and 'a bit louder and easier to hear than usual'.

Meanwhile, Alex talks about indie art game, Limbo, and ponders whether the games media has a tendancy to get hyperbolic about certain indie games.

On top of that there's also much complaining about the work of Tim Burton, plus some puzzled looks when Alex asks just what American McGee ever did to become famous.

We've also got the usual Guess the Screenshot competition, where you could win a fancy SteelSeries headset, plus reader mail and discussion of many other inane topics.

Use the links below to listen to the podcast, which was recorded on Shure microphones, was supported by SteelSeries and features music by Brad Sucks.


Discuss in the forums Reply
yakyb 6th August 2010, 16:51 Quote
you missed a bleep!!!
CardJoe 6th August 2010, 16:54 Quote
I blame Tim Burton.

Fixing it now. Sigh.
CardJoe 6th August 2010, 17:29 Quote
Fixed. It's a clumsy edit, but it'll do.
Tr1p0d 6th August 2010, 18:03 Quote
Nice, I got the unedited mix ^_^
Material 6th August 2010, 19:37 Quote
Boooo, would have loved to join in on the Tim Burton bashing, crappy week for a holiday.

Looking forward to listening to it.
wuyanxu 6th August 2010, 21:43 Quote
haha, i was playing Angry Bird on my iphone while listening to this podcast. was getting really frustrated at level 3-5 of Angry when Harry mentioned those games don't tell you how to progress.
Podge4 6th August 2010, 23:33 Quote
I don't like tim burton either. Only good thing he's done is Batman
Hovisloaf 7th August 2010, 02:07 Quote
where is the link to the youtube video of the guy with the assault rifle xbox controller.
Hovisloaf 7th August 2010, 02:53 Quote
Another video link i can't find is the vvvvvvv video
m0ngy 7th August 2010, 07:03 Quote
Quite entertaining, no way I could talk absolute bollocks for over an hour and make it sound interesting. I agree with Harry in that the story line is pretty good. Hey, it's a space opera, whadduya expect, and polished! Never seen an interface quite so sexy and interactive. However, the actual game itself, the all-essential gameplay, gets a huge, big, gaping, "meh". Sure, some of the single player campaign levels are well thought out, but technically, it's exactly the same game as '98. It's looks OK, the graphics aren't even that great, but the gameplay sucks hard. It's clearly been designed for the huge online multiplayer community of ready-made consumers, but for the experienced RTS fan there's nothing new or exciting going on here.
CardJoe 7th August 2010, 10:40 Quote
Originally Posted by Hovisloaf
Another video link i can't find is the vvvvvvv video

Not embedded because it's EXTREMELY NSFW audio
nhojnomis 7th August 2010, 11:02 Quote
Is this the controller he referenced?

I know it may be a little idiotic, but it is modded and that's what this site promotes. I'll get off my soapbox if it's the wrong video.
nhojnomis 7th August 2010, 11:03 Quote
edit......CardJoe beat me in video finding........dang
void 7th August 2010, 13:09 Quote
Tim Burton is horrible, I agree with this.

And I like World War 2 games.
liratheal 7th August 2010, 20:44 Quote
Originally Posted by CardJoe
Originally Posted by Hovisloaf
Another video link i can't find is the vvvvvvv video

Not embedded because it's EXTREMELY NSFW audio

I did not expect to laugh as much as I did.
Damouse 8th August 2010, 00:53 Quote
Oh, what silliness.

This obsession about APM is inaccurate. SC2 was criticized by the pro's for having a low APM requirement, the average effective APM for a diamond player is below 100. If the staff had taken any time to watch professional analysis, they would see that micro does not in fact win games.

And again, this odd mentality with being "good" is again childish. The fernando torres analogy is solid, i dont understand why its not logically applied. Im going to use myself as an example:

Ive player approximately 90 games of SC2 in 1v1 since launch, i did NOT play beta, i was never any good at SC1. By this logic, i should be horrific at this game. I am in the top .5% in the world according to league rankings.

I watched Day9, i worked out build orders, i studied pro replays. I didn't do anything having to do with APM. This obsession with APM determining skill is inaccurate and unfounded.

Furthermore, your definition of success, or being "good," is downright naive. I dont consider myself exceptional, but i do have a solid grasp of the game. Whats more, i have fun playing it, with my 50% win rate. Im not the best, but im confident in my play and can accept losses. Who are you to say what "good" is? Both subjectively and empirically, i am "good," yet that has nothing to do with my enjoyment of the game.

I think this crusade against SC2 is the perfect example of the reverse fanboy on Joe's part, as he has consistently and without substance bashed the game, from the "First Impressions" article till now. It is obvious that he has not taken any serious time to research the claims he has made or peruse the wealth of strategic theory and analysis that would cast the game in a different light.

I understand it's fun to hate whatever is popular, but joe has been hating it before it even came out, without any well thought out reasoning.
Cool_CR 8th August 2010, 01:44 Quote
Starcraft has three things that make it better than most other RTS games.

1. Its blanced and always will be.
2. Its map creator was both very good and very easy to use (i could make it do interesting things with no skill at all).
3. The story made sences and there was even able to push some mild drama into the mix the whole leveing behind of ******** (no spoilers) we can say the new one does dial back the sence of loss a bit its still ok the trade off with the better graphics make it ok.

OMG Joe starcraft (even the first one has a cover system) the trees lower the chance to be hit and high ground gives an advantage of its not reviled if the openent doenst have a unit on the same or higher level (flighers and sencors can make short work of this advantage).

multi player brakes into 3 tiers home maps (casual/fun anything goes fighting off zombi hords being a single marine agains the swarm races with vultures). General play against people of the same level hard. The super hard ladder competion play (imossible for most).

You play Counter Strike vs a good team you might get a kill but you will get many many deaths.
You play Guildwars vs a top guild even if your team all have head sets and have complemetry builds you will losse and losse baddly most likly without a kill.

You know why this isnt a problem you dont play them there is a match maker for a reason you will probably never play a top korian but you will play lots of other causal SC2 players you just havent played enough games for you rating to flaten out I bet you werent even playing a good player I aced someone in under 15mins and I doubt I can clam 1 to 2 actions a second.

Its like in real life when you go to a tornament and theres some guy in your weight class who can do that revers spinning kick and actual keep is leg strait and the balance shifitng all the way through the spin you know when he steps up its not going to end well. But you find your level as with anything.
Hovisloaf 8th August 2010, 02:08 Quote
Originally Posted by liratheal
Originally Posted by CardJoe
Originally Posted by Hovisloaf
Another video link i can't find is the vvvvvvv video

Not embedded because it's EXTREMELY NSFW audio

Neither did I.

I did not expect to laugh as much as I did.
Hovisloaf 8th August 2010, 02:08 Quote
Hovis 8th August 2010, 17:00 Quote
Egad. Similar name alert.
Jamie 9th August 2010, 18:54 Quote
This podcast is quiet... shhh
Jezcentral 10th August 2010, 10:39 Quote
@Damouse. You are clearly better than me at MP SC2 (and probably SP, too), but a 50% win rate does not make you subjectively and empirically good. It make you subjectively and empirically average.
BLC 10th August 2010, 16:41 Quote
OK. Skipping the SC2 talk for a moment, I just tried the demo of VVVVVV. I wish I bloody hadn't now!
b5k 10th August 2010, 21:56 Quote
On your section about the "Stephen Hawking" of Game Developers, the clear front runner John Carmack. Where as all other game development companies may have really good teams of developers, there's never been a stand alone figure that dedicates so much time and code to so many different projects.

The technology pushed forward by id Software is by far going in a better direction than Crytek. Crytek engines are sluggish and don't scale down to run on bad hardware too well, it's almost like they just throw as much crap at the screen as they can to blind you with pretties. Every id Software game has scaled to an incredible level, this includes their "failure" Doom 3 which ran on a Rage128Pro at 0.3fps.

The only other real front runner is Epic Games. Their Unreal 3 engine has taken off more than any of their others, it's practically running every major console and PC game at the moment. It's a resounding success.

So it's Technological Success vs Business Success.

On another note, I don't think Valve should be included in this line up. They monkey on the back of other technology, not that that's bad, but the game engine is still running on 10+ year old technology. It's been spruced up a hell of a lot and how they manage to hide all the flaws with that old technology is truely astounding. HL2 still to this day looks good, but this is because of good art choices not because of frontier technology.
Podge4 11th August 2010, 16:06 Quote
Originally Posted by liratheal
Originally Posted by CardJoe
Originally Posted by Hovisloaf
Another video link i can't find is the vvvvvvv video

Not embedded because it's EXTREMELY NSFW audio

I did not expect to laugh as much as I did.

bout 3 mins in was the best i thought, what a guy
Nature 13th August 2010, 08:01 Quote
Maybe I missed it somewhere.. But is there a preformance analysis/ stress test of this game at bit-tech?
Bindibadgi 13th August 2010, 08:30 Quote
Originally Posted by Nature
Maybe I missed it somewhere.. But is there a preformance analysis/ stress test of this game at bit-tech?

I've just finished one regarding CPU core use and overclocking performance. The guys in the office will be doing another afaik.
roblikesbeer 16th August 2010, 18:39 Quote
Yay, you read out my tweet *gets over it* ;)
thehippoz 17th August 2010, 01:35 Quote
the game doesn't stress too much and looks great.. I was able to play with 60fps ultra level and record it @1080p on a 192shader 260 gtx @756/1512shader and E6600 @ 3.3

uploaded a video to the queen (at around 4:15).. one of the last 3 or 4 missions- not much to spoil but I sped up the 10 minute video.. check it out in 720p at least


posting a guide in the gaming section on how to fix the nvidia drivers so it doesn't look like your looking at a huangs ass
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